Perception of MTF transsexuals in society

[ria_ts]

Maury show this afternoon ...

had several FTM transsexuals who were discussing how they felt they were in the "wrong" body since childhood, how they encountered difficulties coming out, how they found love with genetic women, and how great it feels to be the guy they always wanted to be.

The audience was so accepting and wonderful towards the statements these trans guys made. Some guys even stood up and addressed the audience. One of them said to the audience that being trans is a "birth defect" and that several doctors attempt to treat us using the best medical techniques, and that we are human beings too and need to live our lives just as non-trans people do. The audience cheered and appreciated the struggles that these guys had been through to feel right about themselves.

After showing the stories of the lives of 5 of these men, the show switched to the story of a trans girl, who had reverse-transitioned back to a guy.

The moment this story of the MTF was introduced to the audience, the narration stated that this boy transitioned to female when he was 19, and the first shot of the audience showed a blonde girl with her hands covering her lower face and her eyes wide open in shock. There were black guys throwing their fists around in the air towards the person. The audience booed and hissed and screamed expletives. The TV bleeped so much that I could hardly hear the narration. And then it was mentioned that the trans girl reverse transitioned and the look in the audience's eyes was one of shock again, though not so much as it was when they were first told that he transitioned to a girl. There were more shots of the audience, and their faces looked like "what the **** was wrong with this guy, it is so disgusting?"

Where did all of that admiration and cheering for the trans girls go when the trans guys were introduced?

[gennee]

Women are not held in as high esteem as men. When a man transitions to a woman it's as if the person has let the male population down. Transmen are not viewed the same because the male is considered the stronger gender. Much of this disparity has to do with the gender binary construct that society says that men and women are suppose to fit in.

From what you saw, it demonstrates that not all women and men fit the binary system in the strictest sense. Most people are somewhere in between in varying degrees. I am a transgender crossdresser who has been seen as a sex object, so I know how women feel about this.

Gennee

[GypsyKaren]

You have to consider the source, Maury is nothing but choreographed trash TV and he's nothing but a Jerry Springer wannabe, I'm surprised he was able to squeeze this in between his standard paternity test shows.

Karen :g1:

[Suzy Harrison]

Women are not held in as high esteem as men. When a man transitions to a woman it's as if the person has let the male population down. Transmen are not viewed the same because the male is considered the stronger gender.




I think this is so true! - It shows how dumb a lot of people are.

The few times I watched either Jerry Springer or the Maury P show I am always amazed by the stupidity of the audience. Quite often the subject of the program might seem a little strange - but not half as strange as the audience - where do they find these people ??

[noeleena]

hi.. i can not think of any thing worse than being in front of the t v .... & have people not informed of other people who may or are different. are these tv programs rigged are they for real ... i guess so i do wonder . other wise they would not show...
so then why if some one gets on t v . & has a presenter do a real good interveiw. not a put down ..just a real life of how it is for some one who is real...
i have not had any of this thrown at me
i was on our two t v programes in n z . in the papers & on the net ...we have just over 4 mill people in n z . so i would have been seen by many . may be not quite the same as your programs .. yet i had good reports from many people concerning my self as a transfemale woman. the difference is . who is it for . for people who are intersted or what ever... just a pity the presenters dont see them selfs as being different .. may be then they would wise up to what really is going on around the world. may be they dont know any better ...hmmmm.,,,,,,,,oh well its a job i spos ..... for us its our lives that is on the line .. not theirs....
...noeleena...

[Frances]

it feels almost like it is less about transitioning and more about wanting to look like a woman or wanting to be a woman that is something that our society (in general) considers demeaning or less human. It seems almost as if it is those who consider females as mere objects or "sinful" are among the majority of people who treat MTFs so poorly.

I have been in the gender reassignment program at the Montreal General Hospital for a few years and have noticed it there too. Trans men get a free pass. Masculinity is the desired state in the minds of many. It brings about many privileges and much power in society, even the therapists are blinded by it; as in: of course you want to be a man, who wouldn't?
Also, since masculinity is added on in the transition process, trans men look very natural, as if they had always been men.

Trans women are treated as mentally disturbed until proven wrong. That means, in the case of my program, intense scrutiny for years. Every box has to be opened, every rock lifted, every possible sexual fantasy explored until the therapists are satisfied. No free pass. Even female therapists take on the attitude that if you want to become a woman, there must be something wrong with; how could one give up power and privilege?

When transitioning from male to female, it not possible to remove some of the effects of masculinisation such big hands, big feet, low voice, height, etc. To some people we will always look like frauds because of this. It is not our faults that we had the wrong endocrine system during puberty.

Don't forget that MP's show is staged and has a viewpoint (albeit a negative one).

[GypsyKaren]

The media is controlled by men and most men worship their penis, so they feel that anyone who doesn't want one is obviously sick. My stepson went to Springer's show once, the audience is told how to react and some of the people on stage are hired actors, it's all bogus and Jerry and Maury are both idiots.

Karen :g2:

[Teresa Amina]

Fortunately real life has little to do with television.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

The media tries to control society...the internet has put a major crimp in that and we have a pretty diverse media in the US, so thats not a political statement...they do it for business....simply to make money...i know..i worked there

and the media has spoken on transsexualism and they have totally boxed us in....i read a really terrific book by Julia Serrano (a ts woman) called "whipping girl and the scapegoating of femininity"...fair warning...its dense and academic in many ways...but its also honest and absolutely brilliant on this very topic....ria based on your post you would love to read it..

for example...she notes that even in "pro ts" movies like transamerica...there is considerable time spent watching the ts character get made up, sweating through the make up, padding herself up, wigs etc....in other words.....she is a FAKE...not a woman at all, but a guy trying desperately to be a woman....subtle point but so true...this is where "the media" wants us...they simply do not accept that we could be women that are correcting ourselves with incredible courage and strength.

remember the movie "Normal" on HBO?...i really liked it and so did Julia Serrano (although I thought the ts character did some weird things)...well Serrano interviewed the director (happens to be a woman that is also lesbian) to talk to her about it....the director responded that she didnt really care about the trans character much at all!!!! She said she just made up the ts character and her actions and didnt worry too much about her being real..why? The director cleared that up too.....The movie was really about a marraige and how the relationship survived the "ultimate betrayal"....which of course was the husband being ts.....again...we are an easy target, even in movies that are sympathetic to us

the book is filled with really forward thinking on this subject..

anyway my long point is, its not just maury and jerry springer...they are simply taking advantage of what the media has set up for them to exploit....
for the money...i can't blame them for being *****s

last night i was watching law and order criminal intent...(I love Vincent D'nofrio), anyway, one of the characters was a crossdresser...although they didnt say crossdressers are murderers, they did say..."oh he's a crossdresser, which usually goes with masochism"...HUH??!?!?!??! this stuff goes on all the time!!!

check out the book...it's eye opening.

I should ask, has anybody else read it? Feel free to agree to disagree!

[Melissa A.]

I've been wanting to read that book for a while, Michelle. Just been too lazy to order it online or elsewhere. None of the big booksellers have it in stock. You may have inspired me to go check the library today.

There are a couple of things at work here- First, TV ratings are what drive programming. and programming is aimed at the broadest demographic, ie, lowest common denominator. This leaves us with a wide spectrum between excellent and trash. Morning weekday programing on over-the-air television is about as low a rung on the ladder as you can go. I suppose it is thought that those at home on a weekday morning have nothing better to do than watch this garbage, along with ads urging people to sue eachother, "call now" to buy worthless cheap junk, or to go back to school and get a freaking job. There will always be a place for modern-day freak shows like Maury and Jerry. Transexuals happen to be the curiosity of the moment, to alot of people. It can be a double edged sword-the more good things that happen, the more we show the world our best side, and make legal and political gains, the more exposure we get. More exposure leads to curiousity, sometimes not of the good kind. I like to think that most people with an IQ above that of a brick, or who have not been living in a cave for the last 20 years, realise the antics you see on these shows are not representative of the overwhelming majority of transpeople.

The misogyny is a different thing. It's been a part of civilisation forever. 21st century western society is the furthest along when it comes to moving away from that. However, as is the case with any kind of Bigotry, It's still here. In Some ways overt and some ways subtle. I work in a mostly blue collar male dominated business, and some of the the cruel and stupid things I hear being said about women, seriously and in Jest, simply apall me. Sometimes I say something, sometimes not. A woman can behave exactly like a man in any position of power and influence, and she's first a bitch, not driven to succeed like him. Even many women buy into this. Remember the woman who asked John McCain on tape, "How do we defeat the bitch?"? I heard some otherwise fairly intelligent people durring last years presidential campaign tell jokes and make comments about Hillary Clinton that they would never, ever make about any man. Women are disected, marginalised, at once afforded less respect, yet held to a higher standard than any minority ever has been. The good news is that it's alot less prevalant than it used to be, and that will probably continue to change for the better, albeit slowly. The folks at the Maury show, I'm sure, were coached in their responses. And often just like the people on stage, were probably not representative of people with actual brains.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

[DemonicDaughter]

I would like to thank all of you that understand how society seems to see women as the lesser sex... still. Albeit its no longer as obvious as it once was, its still there and its something all trans people have to deal with. Let's face it, the genders get treated quite differently by the general public.

Thankfully people don't always react like that openly to meeting a trans person. Most people don't know or aren't certain and therefore don't react. It is difficult enough, I presume, just to be trans much less to have shows like that making one feel sick and disgusting just for being in the wrong body.

I personally love the line in Transamerica in which she says, "Isn't it funny how surgery can cure a 'mental illness'?" :hugs: to you all.

[Nicki B]

Trans men get a free pass.

Whoa... Certainly not IME? Say that in front of a bunch of trans-men (as we have here) and you deserve to be pilloried..



..it feels almost like it is less about transitioning and more about wanting to look like a woman or wanting to be a woman that is something that our society (in general) considers demeaning or less human.

IME it's a small minority who feel like this, NOT a majority..

[TxKimberly]

I hesitate to mention this but . . .
How many Transmen have you seen on Cops, the news, TV, and movies who were prostitutes, running around in outrageous attire and looking for "johns"?
Now ask yourself how many Tgirls you have seen on the same programs that were prostitutes?
I don't recall ever hearing a story about a FTM that painted them in a bad light, I can't say the same for us MTF's though.
I don't see how this can help but influence the publics perception of FTM vs MTF.

[Karen564]

I never had much respect the Maury or Jerry Springer shows after they showed the world there depictions of MTF transsexuals, and it's a shame that many out there that dont know any better believe this is how we are..It's a true injustice to our dignity, and what were all about.. So Sad..

I certainly cant argue the cold hard fact that we do seem to be treated very differently than our trans brothers, and we can thank the heads of ALL our media, since they view us as freaks of society based on the actions of the many unfortunate trans girls living a deviant lifestyle and for some reason think that's what we choose to do or want, which couldn't be farther from the truth, and the reason why there are many unfortunate ones is because they are forced to take to the streets in order to just survive, because the small business & corporate world turns them away, again thanks to the media, because they see this rubbish and treat us like were some kind of taboo, so it all self perpetuates itself and it just goes round & round..

When was the last time you saw a transitioned girl put in a positive light in any Prime-time National news either on TV or in the paper...?? There are many very good trans role models out there living very productive lives, yet the big 3 networks hasn't the balls to show any of them, why?? I think it's because they think it will hurt their customer base & ratings, so yes, the root of all evil is the almighty dollar, and dont forget that advertisers do show their clout on these matters too, there are still many bigoted people holding the Bible speaking as if they were told by God himself out there that carry a strong and unopposed voice expressing their views onto these networks & advertisers, making them think these are the mainstream views of the majority, which may not actually be the case in reality, but these are the ones that protest their views the loudest and get heard.. which again perpetuates the cycle over & over again back to square one, because the majority are like sheep, and like to follow the leader, in order to be viewed as so called normal and not going against the flow..
All in all, I'm very disappointed in majority for not having the balls to speak freely about how they would really feel about us if they did know us, but unfortunately they just tell the others what they know they want to hear, for fear of being a target in the cross-hairs of the bigots and feel their wrath.
And that wont happen until we get viewed in a positive way from the media, which I dont see happening anytime soon..

[Sarah...]

"Male privilege". It's all ********.

Sarah...

[Frances]

Whoa... Certainly not IME? Say that in front of a bunch of trans-men (as we have here) and you deserve to be pilloried..

That opinion was based on my experience at the gender reassignment program at the Montreal General, which I thought I made clear. Trans men get hormones and referals for surgery without any problem. Trans women are put under the microscope for ridiculous lengths of time until they finally say enough is enough and demand access to hormones and other medical care. Since we have universal health care in Canada, hormones and surgery are paid for the transsexual, but the gate keepers open doors for trans men far sooner, and without mental anguish.

Again, my personal experience in Canada, in a government controlled program.

[Mariah]

here's my resioning, and I will use lions for this. (simple example of nature)

Male lions, hunt and have sex about it.
Female lions,have sex and take care of kids.
now if a Female Lion goes and hunt's with the males that's more food for the same amout of loins.
if a male just takes care of the childern that one less meal earner for the same about of loins.
now, a female lion hunting can still have childern, but a male being in the famale does not have sex.

so in this example a FtM Add to the group where a mtf subtracts from it.

make sinces? so we are more evolved the basic underlining thoughts still go through ftm adds mtf subtacts. so men are more comferting(if thats the word) to ftm becuase of this and more critical to mtf.

Mariah

[GypsyKaren]

I definitely think it's a mistake to say that the guys get a free pass, the one's that I personally know sure haven't. Television has the time span of a moth, the powers that be latch onto a subject or group, the rest jump in because they're too lazy or stupid to actually come up with an original idea, and together they milk it till it's dead. Right now the guys are in the positive spotlight more and they really deserve it, but it won't be long before the powers that be toss them and move on to something else.

Karen :g1:

[kellycan27]

Gays are treated better than the tg'ed,F2M are treated better than the TG'ed. I have heard that Sixty Minutes is going to do a spot on how the detainees at Guantanamo are held in higher regard than the Tg'ed.
Are you kidding me? Maury? Who watches that crap, and who would take it seriousy if they did? Maybe it's time to turn OFF the tv and get out there and see for yourself. What kind of moron waits in line to get tickets to see "Maury"?
The ones who probably can't get tickets for Jerry Springer. If we are going to gauge what society thinks about the Tg'ed by what the audience on Maury thinks...... God help us all. To be perfectly honest I am feeling a bit moronic myself just for the fact that I took the time to even comment on this ...... I can't even think of what to call it. I would say bullshit, but I know we're not supposed to say words like bullshit in here, and besides that, I am a lady.

[Byanca]

Maybe it's time to turn OFF the tv and get out there and see for yourself.
I threw it out the window 10 years ago. But I do think someone should keep an eye on it, so that we know what the lunatics are up to.

[Nicole Erin]

Maury is nothing but choreographed trash TV and he's nothing but a Jerry Springer wannabe, I'm surprised he was able to squeeze this in between his standard paternity test shows.

Karen :g1:

And the conjugation said -

AMEN!

[terrinoble]

I own a copy of "Whipping Girl"; it's an absorbing, thought-provoking book. Serano contends that patriarchal society dismisses not so much women as the idea of being/acting/dressing feminine.

I believed that FTMs are seen by many to be "upgrading" and MTFs are thought to be "downgrading." The murder of Brandon Teena contradicts that.

I recall when I was married, my wife's car died and we shopped for another. One car salesman only spoke to me, never even acknowledging my wife - who was the one wanting the car. Needless to say, we went to another dealer.

Much has been done, but there's still more to do.

[Mariah]

ria_ts: thank you, I belive I learned that tidbit in psychology class I took. :)

Mariah

[cd_britney_426]

I'm proud to say that the average amount of TV I watch per day is ZERO. TGs may occasionally get some positive exposure on TV from time to time just as other topics and issues get fair exposure. These are usually limited to documentaries and powerful films that are not well advertised. In reality, the overwhelming majority of TV is trash. Most TV programming is geared toward the intellectual level of a child with vocabulary, content, and concepts rarely at an advanced level. A lot of TV programming also seems like a bit of a conspiracy as it is carefully designed to bring out the absolute worst in people and focus on the worst aspects of life and the world. I don't believe that it is a mere coincidence that practically every other show is full of sickening violence, most of it mysogynistic, and the remaining programming is focused on trivial aspects of life (i.e. a woman putting on her makeup for ten minutes, people eating their sandwiches, meaningless social drama, etc.). As someone once said, TV takes a culture with real values, real people, and real meaning and then places it through a filter and sends it back to the people in a trivialized miniture version where anything that someone might charish (love, sex, virtues, spirituality, etc.) is turned into a farce.

At minimum, one should watch TV very selectively by only sitting down to the occasional valuable documentary or film to turning off the set altogether and experiencing life in the real world. Britney

[kellycan27]

I am not buying the lion thing....No way shape or form.

[Nicki B]

That opinion was based on my experience at the gender reassignment program at the Montreal General, which I thought I made clear. Trans men get hormones and referals for surgery without any problem. Trans women are put under the microscope for ridiculous lengths of time until they finally say enough is enough and demand access to hormones and other medical care. Since we have universal health care in Canada, hormones and surgery are paid for the transsexual, but the gate keepers open doors for trans men far sooner, and without mental anguish.

Again, my personal experience in Canada, in a government controlled program.


I definitely think it's a mistake to say that the guys get a free pass, the one's that I personally know sure haven't.

In the UK, on the NHS or privately, they certainly don't get a 'free pass' - I know too many who've been driven close to suicide, in exactly the same way as MTFs.


How many Transmen have you seen on Cops, the news, TV, and movies who were prostitutes, running around in outrageous attire and looking for "johns"?
Now ask yourself how many Tgirls you have seen on the same programs that were prostitutes?

Kimberly - I certainly know of more than a few T-girls who are working girls (we have had members here) - don't you?

Ask yourself, given the state of surgery for FTMs and the much smaller number of GMs who work as prostitutes - is it really very surprising there aren't likely to be FTMs working in the sex industry in the same way as MTFs? :strugglin

[Siobhan Marie]

I personally don't watch a lot of TV. I'm non-op transgendered and it pains me to have to hear what is said about those who are brave enough to transition, be it MTF or FTM. We get treated like the lowest of the low and it's so not right. I live as a male on the outside and who I really am, a female on the inside but it still hurts me deep down to have to hear it.

[CharleneT]

. . . .
I recall when I was married, my wife's car died and we shopped for another. One car salesman only spoke to me, never even acknowledging my wife - who was the one wanting the car. Needless to say, we went to another dealer.

Much has been done, but there's still more to do.

I agree ! When my ex-wife and I were shopping for a new car for her ( hers was mashed by a tornado here ), we went thru 4 salesmen -- and one saleswoman -- who would not talk directly to her. EVEN when we pointed out that I was only along for the ride and she was the one looking for a car !!

I think things are changing and for the better. I truly think that it is getting better the transgendered as well.... but those changes are all slow ... so slow.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Last time i saw Jerry Springer, the people on stage started fighting everytime a bell rang!! They let a seemingly random audience member jump into the fray!!!.....oh gosh, it was the trannies brother defending her... Case closed...trained or not those goofballs in the audience are meant to "represent" everyday people..and they loved it...

and i agree with ria's point that it's "empowering" to say that you don't watch tv, or who cares about tv...but the rest of the world is literally molded in its ideas by the media with television being a key part of that. If we ignore what's on tv, movies, newspapers, even fictional novels, then we are ignoring what's going on in the world...murdered trannies are page 86 news.

as far as the much more serious question ria raised, its a pretty broad and all encompassing point.. I can tell you from my 20 years as a corporate exec that women are simply not treated the same.....with the biggest reason being their sexualization.. i experienced this over and over and on the few occasions where i challenged a guy on a comment (either "what a bitch" or "i'd do her" after a woman left the room, i would get a wink and sarcastic apology of some sort. Anybody here work in the building trades or been in a union??? I'd be interested to hear how bad it is there..

it's one thing to say men and women are different, men hunt, women take care of the home...there is logic and truth to this, but our culture has degraded and fractured so much that it's become a joke...

i mean women pose on the top of cars, sell beer to teenagers in beer ads, etc etc etc....if a guy can get a great shave, an adoring woman slithers up to him.....from the other side...are you a guy who wants his girl to love him?
Well that's easy!!!! All you have to do is give her a diamond or other pretty bauble... this is what's out there, especially in the media...and by living your life as a woman, you must understand that there is discrimination against women all over the place...and if a person ignores the media, they are isolating themselves from the world around them (which right now sounds pretty good!!! tg commune perhaps?? heh)....and that's where the discrimination starts..

Then we have the added problem is women don't want us, (this is all in general by the way..i know lots of folks are friendly to us), and men fear us and sexualize us....usually making fun of how we look, or even worse....

So your choice is ignore what's going on, and perhaps carve out a life for yourself that is very small and closed...and frankly that is an attractive option in many ways....or if you choose to jump in with both feet be ready for alot of this bullshit.

I choose to jump in...so far every person i've talked to about this, i've told them the whole story, and i don't let them off the hook...the confusion, the suffering, the money, the loss of friendships, the suicide rate...etc....and i've told them how content and happy i am about accepting myself despite everything i've lost....very few non tg people i talked to had any fricking idea about what i was talking about....but afterwards i got alot of hugs and alot of "i never knew" type comments...

so my serious answer to ria's question is that i'm going to tell everyone i can about myself...educating people about what it means to be tg has to be the starting point...

i do not plan to be "stealth" and i work very hard to keep myself emotionally prepared for the ups and downs ahead of me

people have to know and all i can do is tell them one by one..

[cd_britney_426]

I believe it is valuable to be exposed to some media but the brief exposure is one thing and being inundated by it is something else. The average American watches four hours of TV per day which is hardly "mere exposure" as most people think they they have or are willing to admit. Additionally, the more selective you are in terms of what you expose yourself to, the more you begin to wake up. Eventually, this results in distancing yourself from other people who are heavily absorbed in the base concepts and bankrupt culture that the entertainment industry puts out and ultimately leads up to outright speaking out against it whenever it does come up.

Back to TG issues, some exposure can be a good thing when it comes to TV and other mass media. However, I wouldn't rely on it. TV is emotion-driven, not information driven. If you see a TG on TV it will likely be in some silly sitcom or reality TV show designed to make the viewer laugh at them, be aired on the news as a criminal designed to make the viewer outraged, or as a victim designed to make the viewer feel pity. You won't see a TG displayed as a normal person because TV doesn't show anything normal as it is. That is precisely because you cannot effectively take the real world and put it on a 36" flat screen without something being lost in the process.

What people need is education and they get that by reading. The problem is that hardly anybody ever reads anymore and even most people's online "reading" amounts to blogs, MySpace, Facebook, and YouTube. I'm not sure what the solution is other than to be as out of the closet as we can because most people aren't even likely to read a five-sentence flyer about something if you give it to them. Everything is visual and that is something we can have under our own control. Britney

[cd_britney_426]

Here is a specific response to ria_ts:


... and thereby ignore the "reality" that the rest of your fellow beings believe in?

While I understand the irrelevance and insignificance of most of what appears on TV, and while I would agree with you about the ideal world, I would like to say that you ignore the ignorant at your own peril.

You don't need TV to be informed. If the purpose is to educate yourself, you can do that through print media by skimming through the newspaper as necessary before it makes its final descent to the waste basket where most of it also belongs or online where most information can be gathered simply through the article titles and only clicking to read the full article in the rare case that that is necessary. It isn't necessary to spend hours each day viewing/reading about the same going-ons in the world. If the purpose is to investigate anti-TG issues on TV, I have much more important anti-TG issues to "investigate" such as safety on the streets and in the bars.


In a democracy, if the majority are ignorant, we, the "non-normal" ones, are sitting duck waiting to be sent to the first concentration camps that open up during the next economic or social crisis.

That is why I have shotguns, rifles, and hundreds of rounds of ammunition. Let some government try to put me or anyone I know in any "concentration camp" and it won't be done without a fight. The sad reality, though, is that instead of the government even coming for people like me (initially anyway) they will go after the people they know can't fight back--the impoverished who wouldn't be able to afford a weapon anyway. You have a point here because a lot of TGs are "at risk" as they are already socially outcast and what little money they can get is tied up saving for hormones and surgeries. It isn't a good situation but I'm not going to lose sleep over what a future government could do. I assume that if things got real bad, there would be resistance to any tyrannical action but who knows.


You all converted it into the topic about television.

My overall post has to do with the perception of MTFs in society.

For example, if you randomly pick 10 MTF trans people, and go stand in front of an audience of 1000 randomly chosen people from your city, and tell the audience that you are MTF trans people, how are they going to react? Why do they react the way they do? What do those reactions mean to us, as we try to live our lives as trans people today and in the future? What are the problems we may encounter as a result of the reactions and the beliefs of those people? How can we overcome such problems that may arise for us? These are my concerns.

The point is that TV is NOT reality. It is reality being fed through a filter and delivered to the masses in a trivialized one-dimentional miniture form. A person can be well informed and well educated without watching TV. In fact most highly intelligent and informed people that I know don't watch any TV and some don't even own a set. They read. I can educate people in person as needed. As to living out my life, while I'm not 24/7 I will not tolerate any type of harrassment or violence against another TG in my vicinity while I'm in drab or any towards me while I'm in femme. If someone wants to yell something out in mockery, that is their First Amendment right. If they want to threaten or assault me or someone else or otherwise break the law, I will not hesitate to call the police and I will not hesitate to handle it myself as I not only have the tools but also the training to effectively do it.

My last point here is people need to take personal responsibility. While I understand the need to ensure certain advancements of a group we are in (TG), we are also individuals in that group. We can advance the group by supporting legislation against hate crimes, discrimination, and right to transition. Outside of those, TGs are individuals like anyone else. Some are decent people worthy of respect while others are just as screwed up, criminal and otherwise, like any other minority. As to "safety," I'm not a cop and I'm not responsible for other people's safety. I don't want a hate crime to happen to a TG just as much as I wouldn't want them to get accidently hit by a car. Regardless, I'm not going to ask for coddling either for me or someone else. Aside from passing laws, I don't believe in asking the government for constant supervision and safety. When a TG person is killed, it is very tragic and it does strike a painful chord in almost all of us. Unfortunately, the victim is rarely a "normal" person who locks her doors at night, works a 9-5 job, and chooses social association wisely, and exercises common-sense street smarts. Often, the individual is a prostitute who was loitering in a horrible neighborhood, unarmed, intoxicated, had a fair share of criminal association, and may have even ripped off or stolen from clients and other TGs. That certainly doesn't justify the act but I certainly don't believe in glossing over some of these realities and this is stuff I have not only thoroughly researched online but I have been exposed to it first-hand in person. I know enough of these "unfortunates" many of who put themselves where they are out of no one's fault but their own to make a police Vice Squad very interested in my information.

So yes, educate yourself and others but let's do it in the right way where time is maximized on the most important issues and where a minimal amount is spent glossing over individual responsibilities in order to advance the "group." Britney

[obsessedwithpantyhose]

to bad we cant get the message out that we are all HUMANS and just leave it at that....

[Diane24]

The general public's opinion about MTF is the reason I chose to transition in "stealth." I completed my SRS and then moved to a different part of the country. Since all my credentials are in my feminine name, there is no reason to suspect that I'm anything but what I appear to be.
The acceptance of FTM's really hit home with me when the daughter of a local minister came out and transitioned as an FTM. He has transitioned on the job as a high school teacher and is now working there as a man. There was some opposition, but nothing like the outrage that MTF's receive.
TV shows like Murray's do us all a disservice!

[Byanca]

For example, if you randomly pick 10 MTF trans people, and go stand in front of an audience of 1000 randomly chosen people from your city, and tell the audience that you are MTF trans people, how are they going to react? Why do they react the way they do? What do those reactions mean to us, as we try to live our lives as trans people today and in the future? What are the problems we may encounter as a result of the reactions and the beliefs of those people? How can we overcome such problems that may arise for us? These are my concerns.
That's a bad scenario. As it is never a good idea to group people together-the mindset will always be singular-and after the most dominant voice. But beauty and power will always prevail. People need something to relate to, and TS is not it. I think it is good if you can do something that will take the focus of the TS issue. That is something that is not understood. And for most people the unknown creates fear. And most everything of the not so flattering of the human history origins in fear.

And the worst thing is that most people learn primarily by experience, not by theory. So to educate might be next to impossible. The understanding most be learnt while they are kids.

I have noticed that people creates some kind of emotion when there is something they dont like. Probably similar to disgust. So one have to ask yourself. Why is it you like the things you do. It's that disgust that must go away, as that triggers more instinct reactions, that most people are helpless to deal with. So it boils down to teaching your children true understanding instead of judgement.

[Melissa A.]

something happened yesterday that made me think of this thread.

I've spent the last year and a half out in the world as Melissa whenever I can. All my shopping, errands, walks, and really anything that doesnt involve work or the few people who don't yet know about me is done presenting 100% female. By that I mean I have always worn a wig, breast forms, and at least some makeup, especially on my eyes, because they seem to be one of my better features. The point is, looking like this, I "pass" (never liked that word) fairly well, and the fact that I don't care if I'm read certainly helps. Frankly, most people dont even notice me. I tend to dress fairly plainly, in jeans and sneakers most of the time. I have always, up until now, worn the forms and wig, however, because I would rather fit in and encounter as little static as possible. Well, It's now going on 6 months HRT. My hair is pretty long, and the thinning in front is very close to being gone. My breasts are somewhat noticable, if I do not wear an X-large t-shirt.

Yesterday, I took my Dad to see my therapist. He lives 200 miles away, and is here visiting for a week. He's 71, and I feared he'd have trouble finding the place, so I drove him. He's really not ready for the full Melissa yet, visually, mostly because we dont see eachother every day. It's OK, I understand. He's been wonderful.

I wore a pair of skinny jeans, girls sneaks, a t-shirt, and a black hooded zipper sweatshirt, open at the front. A leather bag with a long strap draped accross my body. I looked pretty much androgenous, at least to me. Although you could see my boobs. Dad didnt really notice. Oh, yes, I also wore a very small amount of foundation and blush. Barely noticable. enough to cover what shadow I have left. No eye make-up.

After dropping Dad off and saying hi to my therapist, I went for a walk, mostly thru a fairly large park. Nothing unusual, people enjoying the nice weather, hanging out on benches, kids and their parents off in a distant playground. I walked within about 75 yards of an area where 3 men were standing, and when I looked in their direction, one of the men stepped away from them, and was clearly signaling me to come over. I changed direction. A short time later, I was walking down a path that merged with another, and a middle-aged man walking in the same direction started to chat with me. It took him barely 2 sentences to ask me "what I was doing today" in an expectant voice. I smiled, said, I'm very busy, and veered off. A little later I sat down at a bench next to a small lake and started reading my book. I put my hair way up in a bob-style pony tail, as it was getting a little warm. 2 seconds later, another man, maybe mid 40's, sat down in the bench about 15 feet from mine. he started talking to me, and was fairly polite, asking what I was reading, commenting on the weather, etc. Then: "You have a boyfriend?" "No, not at the moment". "Can I call you?" "No, thank you, not really a priority for me right now, I'm moving anyway". "Oh, too bad".

I never felt like I was in any physical danger, and very soon it was time for me to get back. As I got up, he said, "I'm sorry if I scared you off" I told him he didnt, and walked away.

But what the hell did I do???? My head was spinning, here. When I am fully made up, and camoflaged by a wig, makeup and breastforms, This never, ever happens. I go out just once looking maybe like a trans(maybe more than I know, I guess) or somewhat andro, and BAM! I'm this sexualised piece of meat. it seems that an ambiguous, albeit more female than male presentation elicits two emotions-Hostility (I did get a few stares, also, from a distance), or raw sexualization. It's not like I was walking around in a pink taffeta party dress and heels. I was just being me.

This really was bizarre to me. Or maybe it isnt. maybe it's my welcome to my new life. I dunno. I am reading Seranno's book, and some of what happened comes right from one of the chapters. Her experience early on in her transition, almost exactly. Anyway, I thought this was very interesting, and a little disturbing.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

[NiCo]

Women are not held in as high esteem as men. When a man transitions to a woman it's as if the person has let the male population down. Transmen are not viewed the same because the male is considered the stronger gender.

Oh, so transmen aren’t viewed the same? Really…well why’s it that lesbians seem to have this issue with trans-men, is it because we have “failed” them. I know not all lesbians are like that, as my two best friends are lesbians, but since you want to use examples I think I will.
You see, the same goes to trans-women, a lesbian woman (more likely to be a feminist really) may think that trans-men are traitors because they are “throwing their feminity in the bin” but a homosexual could think the same about a trans-woman, that she is “throwing her masculinity in the bin”
Transmen are viewed the same as trans-women, we don’t get things handed to us on silver platters so don’t assume we do!


trans men look very natural, as if they had always been men.

I’m glad YOU think so, because society doesn’t. My very good friend is a trans-woman and has had a hell of a time, but don’t we all? You know, trans-men get called and refered to as female a lot don't you? Or do you? Because i know that, because it happens to me. Trans-women, although dressed as women get called man, or freaks. Well, we all get called names...not just women, so why make it out that it is just women?


Trans men get hormones and referals for surgery without any problem.

Haha, yes, of course we do, because we want a penis and a penis is the most important thing on this planet, way ahead of curing AIDS, cancer and stopping Africa starving. You obviously don’t read the trans-man threads then? Because then you’d see our struggles are just the same. You see, a trans-man can be mistaken as confused just as much as a trans-woman. Assuming again. Not good.

Trans-men and trans-women have a hard time equally, no more, no less.

Trans-women downsides- deep voice, facial hair (+ painful removal), tucking, height (mostly but not always), big hands and feet (mostly, but not always) etc etc etc

Trans-men downsides- squeaky voice, no facial hair, binding to the point your lungs feel they have been turned to mush, lack of decent height (mostly but not always), small hands and feet (mostly but not always)

Emotional downsides to both (mostly but not always)- suicidal thoughts, thoughts of self mutilation, hatred, jealousy, helplessness, desperation…the list goes on and on.

Can’t you see? WE ALL get it tough, we just have to deal with it without this playground attitude.

Saying this and that about trans-men is disgusting, making us out to be giving easy times, I don’t think so, and I will defiantly not be the only person to think like this! You do realise that we have lived some of out lives as women? You do realise WE know how bloody hard it is for women! And that’s why I respect women! Because I know the pain at being inferior! But until you see that trans-men are just as bad off, EQUAL, then you have a serious issue going on and need to get help for that…I can see it from both sides, I may not be able to emphasise with trans-women, but I understand.

[Frances]

But until you see that trans-men are just as bad off, EQUAL, then you have a serious issue going on and need to get help for that.

This is really making me angry. I guess I was not clear enough. My observations were based on my experience in the gender program of a hospital over the course of the last 4 years. Picking things out of context and insulting me is not cool. I know plenty of trans men who have a real hard time with their work, their transition, their family life, etc., but trans men who go through the program at the Montreal General DO have an easier time than trans women. Saying I have a serious issue and that I need help is incredibly insulting and agressive, seriously. Once again, for all the people who seem to have trouble reading entire messages:

MY COMMENTS WERE BASED ON ACTUAL EVENTS DURING MY FOUR YEARS IN THE GOVERNMENT-RUN GENDER PROGRAM AT THE MONTREAL GENERAL!

It is not something that can be debated or argued, it is what happened.

[NiCo]

This is really making me angry. I guess I was not clear enough. My observations were based on my experience in the gender program of a hospital over the course of the last 4 years. Picking things out of context and insulting me is not cool. I know plenty of trans men who have a real hard time with their work, their transition, their family life, etc., but trans men who go through the program at the Montreal General DO have an easier time than trans women. Saying I have a serious issue and that I need help is incredibly insulting and agressive, seriously. Once again, for all the people who seem to have trouble reading entire messages:

MY COMMENTS WERE BASED ON ACTUAL EVENTS DURING MY FOUR YEARS IN THE GOVERNMENT-RUN GENDER PROGRAM AT THE MONTREAL GENERAL!

It is not something that can be debated or argued, it is what happened.

Fair enough, my comment still stands. I am entitled to my opinion afterall? Or do i not live in a freedom of speech (minus racism) country?

I'm just defending the boys from an attack, just like you girls defend each other from masculine attacks.

You didn't exactly expect all the guys to sit back and take it did you?

I've seen many trans-women get through the system faster, but not once moaned about it, in fact, i applaud it. Something you clearly can't do.

Jealousy.

Not the fact "everyone loves men because they're male and it's a male world".

But obviously you will not be able to see that.

[GypsyKaren]

I think it's a wee bit presumptuous for us to talk about what the guys go through because we each must walk in our own shoes. I don't know anything about hospitals this or programs that, I only know about the actual day to day living that I go through and what the guys who I personally know relate to me about it all from their perspective, and I can tell you that they don't have it easier in any way.

Just my beliefs here, but any kind of directed program or whatever means nothing to me, most TS'ers know full well what they want and need before they walk in the door, and we know what to say in order to get it. You can get the help of a zillion so called professionals and you can graduate with straight A's or whatever they do for you, but life has a way of making diplomas pretty worthless very fast.

GK :g2:

[cd_britney_426]

Please learn to read, thanks.

The statement above is in response to several posts criticizing Francis for allegedly saying transmen have it easier than transwomen. Even though I didn't make the post, I get annoyed when it happens to me. If you can't take the time to read someone's post in entirety (such as when a key point is mentioned as in "in my city...in my program" which doesn't refer to the whole world as you think it does), then don't reply to it. Otherwise, you are just being rude.

That said, I'd like to comment on Melissa's post. I have had some similar experiences while I have presented female although perhaps to a less severe degree. While part of this problem may be the trans issue, I honestly think the bulk of the problem is the gender issue in society. Despite that this is 2009, men and women are still treated quite differently and not always to their liking. From my experiences as well as observations, our culture seems to more or less treat men as the predators and women as the prey. I'm not even full time but simply CD on the weedends at clubs (so far) but I have experienced similar inappropriateness. Unfortunately, the concept of women being "ladies" and men being "gentlemen" appears for the most part to be long gone. It is sad but until we do something about it, it will not change.

Twice in the past two weeks when walking to my car from the club I went to presenting as female, two vehicles followed me and tried to get me to go with them. I was not dressed like a prostitute, was not loitering, and clearly had a destination I was going to. In other words, it should have been clear to any reasonable person I wasn't waiting to be picked up or expecting to be bothered. Nonetheless, two separate individuals on two different occasions whom I didn't know and probably weren't even in the bar felt that for some reason I would just stop whatever I was doing and go out with a stranger whom I didn't even know. I have gotten so fed up with being bothered by nuissance individuals who endlessly come like flies to a picnic table that I am no longer miss nice girl. I immediately yell at them to "hit the road" or "[f**k off" and my hand is already on my pepper spray. So far it has worked. The way I look at it is if I'm not bothering them, they shouldn't be bothering me and it is not my fault they don't know or care to show proper respect.

In your example, you are clearly minding your own business enjoying a nice walk in a park and later trying to read a book in peace and quiet. If you wanted someone's company you probably wouldn't be doing those things in the first place which is why you should be left alone. Anyone with an IQ above 70 should be able to figure this out. Unfortunately, it sounds to me like you had to deal with the flies again. One person after another gets in your space, in your business, and wastes your time uninvited. You can choose to handle it how you will but this clearly reiterates the point that our culture has a real gender problem here. It seems like most men who act this way try to be cunning, intimidating, or aggressive enough to make the woman nervous or always on the defensive. As long as their intended targets play into their game, they will keep acting this way. As much as I've always wanted to be polite to people, I have realized that it doesn't always work since you aren't dealing with normal rational people in the first place. Therefore, I will often say "Mind your own business" or "go away" before the individual even has a chance to open his mouth. Rude? Yes, but they are rude for being in my space and I don't have to and will not put up with it.

Good luck. Britney :hugs:

[Karen564]

I'm just defending the boys from an attack, just like you girls defend each other from masculine attacks.

You didn't exactly expect all the guys to sit back and take it did you?

.

Sorry, but I never saw an attack on any particular transman in this thread, not one... not even an attack on Trans-men in general...

All I saw was people making a statement from their perspective on perceptions from their own small cubical of the world...

The world covers a lot of area & many people & it's not the same everywhere in every place, just because someone has a hard or easy time where they live doesn't mean it's the same for everyone everywhere......That's being extremely narrow minded if anyone thinks otherwise..

The only attack I saw here, was your post to Frances, that was very personal & done with an attitude..IMO

You never even gave her a chance to explain why she posted what she did...instead you just automatically went on the defensive..

That's all I'm going to say for now, so just think about it..

[Byanca]

This gave me the hypothesis that it must be the end-point - female - that bothers these people about MTFs. Wanting to have female characteristics seems to cause a negative reaction.

My perception is that the male body is like perfect, and something you dont change, in any way. Hence it is okay for females to use make up and so on but not for males. I dont think most people is aware of their emotions regarding this. But both females and males I encounter(for the most part) is that you dont change the male body. Even clothes should be simple and not take focus away from the person inside them. But generally it is okay for females to do plastic surgery etc, with not such a biggie.

So it seems pretty clear to me that the male body is perceived as perfect, and any change will make it less. And no longer unique. Females are obviously not viewed in the same way.

So mtf you will become less, in peoples perception. While ftm-you become more.

In light of this I dont find it strange if these two are treated differently. I'd actually be surprised if that was not the case.

[GypsyKaren]

Please learn to read, thanks.

The statement above is in response to several posts criticizing Francis for allegedly saying transmen have it easier than transwomen. Even though I didn't make the post, I get annoyed when it happens to me. If you can't take the time to read someone's post in entirety (such as when a key point is mentioned as in "in my city...in my program" which doesn't refer to the whole world as you think it does), then don't reply to it. Otherwise, you are just being rude.


#1...I would very much like to see an end to the bickering going on, y'all can do it yourselves or I'll do it for you.

#2...I know how to read, thank you.

#3...You don't tell anyone what they can or can't do here, if it happens again you'll have a problem you can't handle.

Karen :g1:

[sailcruisn]

Sorry, but I never saw an attack on any particular transman in this thread, not one... not even an attack on Trans-men in general...

All I saw was people making a statement from their perspective on perceptions from their own small cubical of the world...

The world covers a lot of area & many people & it's not the same everywhere in every place, just because someone has a hard or easy time where they live doesn't mean it's the same for everyone everywhere......That's being extremely narrow minded if anyone thinks otherwise..

The only attack I saw here, was your post to Frances, that was very personal & done with an attitude..IMO

You never even gave her a chance to explain why she posted what she did...instead you just automatically went on the defensive..

That's all I'm going to say for now, so just think about it..
I completely agree, I thought about posting but felt bad after reading it. The hostility from him wasn't just shown in this thread. I read 2 threads back to back and I just couldn't find the will to post.

On the topic though I could kind of see it. I know when I took sociology they talked about how women are oppressed compared to men. To me it depends on how one looks at it though. I will admit though that there were a ton of things that I really didn't like about my prof. He seemed to mix his beliefs in to make it sound like only he could be correct. That wasn't just gender but race and religion. Needless to say I made sure it went in one ear and out the other.

It seems like FtM's have it easier as most think that women are oppressed and that they are just striving to reach higher goals or positions where men typically can only hold them. They are portrayed better in the movies even. Where they seem to make MtF look like a joke as why would anyone ever do it.

[Sharon]

The grass is always greener, folks.

Personally, if anything, I feel that we MtFs probably have it easier, at least as far as surgery is concerned. MtF surgery is tough enough, but it doesn't come close to what the guys have to do through. And we also can feel comfortable that our SRS will turn out well (assuming you don't go to a junk-yard surgeon.) The men don't have that assurance, however, and the surgery is much more expensive and recovery time much longer.

But if you're talking about superfluous things like wearing your preferred clothing in public, then, yeah, maybe guys, in general, have it a bit easier.

[JennyTG24]

I know how much peoples proception of us can cause us to hide, I have had a week of work and all i have done is sit around my home, doing what i want to do, the way i want to do it. but because the media has put the trans-community in this rediculas light i havnt gone out because of fear of what would happen, and i say would, because it has. I have decocated most of my time writing poetry for website, im also in a middle of publishing a book with transgendered poems and also audio and storys so i could try to make people understand a little better, so we as a community could join sociaty and just life our lives the way we are ment to live them, Happy.

[Louistoalana]

It's stories like this, that make me worry and doubt what I want to do and I hate that :(. Luckily there are sites like these that are helpful to find support. :)