Do we need to be forgiven?

[helenr]

My wife mentioned that she was going to an afternoon seminar today on 'Forgiveness'. I will learn more about it later. I am sure all of us could in a sense benefit from anything on this topic, but I sense part of her interest is her ongoing quest in dealing with her transgendered husband!
this lead me to reflect, do we require forgiveness? Are we out of line or errant such that we need to be forgiven--like someone who has committed a crime? I sort of react like this is an insult-I don't think private thinking or behavior that isn't meant to hurt another should be an offense.Naturally, being transgendered to any extent imposes pressure on wives , but it wasn't done 'intentionally' to hurt. how do you friends interpret this topic?

[Veronica Lacey]

Your thoughts may be accurate...yet perhaps your wife is looking to learn to forgive herself as well for any negativity she may feel towards the dressing? Another way for her to cope with something she may not have ever expected.

Just a thought... :thinking:

[Deborah Jane]

We can't be forgiven for something that is born inside us!

We were born this way, how can it be wrong?

Only society decided that what we are is wrong, we had no choice about it, we were born as we are!!

[Sarah...]

Would you feel the need to forgive your wife for being female? Or your father for being male?

I wouldn't have thought so.

So there is no forgiveness needed for you being you.

Sarah...

[Angie G]

I don't think we need forgiveness I think it's more a need of understanding.:hugs:
Angie

[Gabrielle Hermosa]

I'm pretty sure that WE are the ones who need to forgive those who have made our lives difficult simply for being who we are.

In saying that, I have a long, long way to go before I can forgive the world for the crap put into my head - how I was taught over and over how wrong it is to be me (a cd).

But forgive me? What exactly do I need forgiveness for? Aside from the things we all do wrong in life, which have nothing to do with cding. I do not require forgiveness for being who I am though. I'm not a bad person. I cause harm to no one. I just want to be allowed to be me. One does not require forgiveness for that.

[Crysten]

Fortunately, I'm not Catholic, therefore, nope, I don't need to be forgiven:)

Crysten

[TSchapes]

In other words, if I'm driving down the highway, and someone cuts me off, I can curse him/her or I can forgive them. Since they can't hear me curse them, it has no affect on them, but it sure would raise my blood pressure!

If I forgive them, because I have no idea what caused them to cut me off, I am less likely to get all worked up about it, and adjust my own feelings. I can't change their behavior, but if I forgive them, I can surely adjust mine!

This may be a good thing for her and I would not take it personally. Again, it is for her.

Love, Tracy

[TGMarla]

Forgiven? By who? For what?

[Daintre]

Forgiveness for being transgendered, no, absolutely not.

Entering into a marriage and withholding the fact you are a CD, finally telling your SO weeks, months even years later, then yes, you would need to be forgiven. Not for being a CD, but for the lies by omission in not telling your SO. Telling her before marriage would have given her the option to marry or not.

[<3 Keri Lynn <3]

Definition: Forgive #3 - to grant pardon to (a person)

Which can simply means they are apologizing for not being accepting which in essence, others can forgive us for being mean and not being accepting and in the same spectrum WE don't have to forgive for being our self but others can learn to forgive for not understanding.

Might be to wordy but the basic idea is there :heehee:


*Hugs*Kisses*

[Sheila]

Forgiveness for being transgendered, no, absolutely not.

Entering into a marriage and withholding the fact you are a CD, finally telling your SO weeks, months even years later, then yes, you would need to be forgiven. Not for being a CD, but for the lies by omission in not telling your SO. Telling her before marriage would have given her the option to marry or not.

:iagree: said better than I could Jenni thankyou :hugs:

[trannie T]

Jenny Y was absolutely correct, crossdressing in itself is not wrong and there is no need to ask for forgiveness for the simple act of crossdressing. Stealing and lying however, are wrong and we may ask to be forgiven for these offenses.

[Kaz]

Forgiveness for being transgendered, no, absolutely not.

Entering into a marriage and withholding the fact you are a CD, finally telling your SO weeks, months even years later, then yes, you would need to be forgiven. Not for being a CD, but for the lies by omission in not telling your SO. Telling her before marriage would have given her the option to marry or not.

Yeah, that would be a heavy weight to carry I guess...

To be foregiven there has to be guilt... Guilt comes in many forms... we bring it on ourselves, we are given it by those whom we have injured, and then there is everyone else... their opinions, judgements, and their willingness to blame without understanding...

I am often foregiven by those I have injured...

I find it hard to live with what I bring on myself... my wife thinks I am too hard on myself...

Others... now there is a thing... this is what really stops me coming out and being myself... the unforgiving nature of others... who do not know me or who I am...

Kaz xx

[sissystephanie]

My wife mentioned that she was going to an afternoon seminar today on 'Forgiveness'. I will learn more about it later. I am sure all of us could in a sense benefit from anything on this topic, but I sense part of her interest is her ongoing quest in dealing with her transgendered husband!
this lead me to reflect, do we require forgiveness? Are we out of line or errant such that we need to be forgiven--like someone who has committed a crime? I sort of react like this is an insult-I don't think private thinking or behavior that isn't meant to hurt another should be an offense.Naturally, being transgendered to any extent imposes pressure on wives , but it wasn't done 'intentionally' to hurt. how do you friends interpret this topic?

My first question would be, are you truly transgendered? Or do you, like myself, just like to wear women's clothing? If you do want to change your life to that of a woman, without surgery, then you transgendered. If you just like to wear women's clothes you are a CD. Being a CD is NOT being transgendered! If it was, most women would be considered transgendered because of their "manly" clothing.

Now as to "forgiveness." Someone can only forgive you if you have done something to hurt that person in some way. If you have hurt your wife by crossdressing and not being her Man, then maybe she feels you do need forgivness.

I am a practicing Catholic, and have been told by an Archbishop that Crossdressing is not a sin in the eyes of the Catholic Church. And please don't anybody bring up the Bible reference that is frequently used. That is in the Old Testament and is not relevant today. The idea then was that men used womens clothing to get out of military service or to get into the womens section of the Temple. Changing your sex is a sin because you are defiling the body that God gave you.

Helen, if you really love your wife, let her know in no uncertain terms that you are her man first and formost! No matter what you are wearing. I did that with my late wife before we were married and we enjoyed 49+ years together. She was totally supportive!

[Mary Morgan]

We need to be forgiven for our transgressions, not for who God made us to be.

[Karren H]

I didn't do anything wrong so wy do I need to be forgiven???

[christinek]

I am not a religious person, that said. I agree with most above.

If there is a god then he wanted me to be this way. So why should I be ashamed, embarrassed or asking for forgiveness.

I love being Christine and want no part in someone shaming me.

It would be their problem not mine. :o

[Persephone]

That is in the Old Testament and is not relevant today.

While it may not be relevant to you, Stephanie, a considerable number of people on this planet still hold to the "Old" Testament.

Nonetheless, that particular line in the Bible, Deuteronomy 22:5, may not apply to crossdressers.

[Lisa Golightly]

Everyone who has wandered into my life has had it made clear who and what I am... I didn't apologize then... Just opened their eyes to the ride ahead... Have I any reason to apologize if they wander off... no.

And I'm happy to defile my body in the eyes of the Church... It's always been a abomination to my eye.

[ReineD]

Forgiveness helps the person doing the forgiving more than the forgiven. It is a way for someone to come to terms with whatever happened that caused them unhappiness, stress, or harm certainly if it was intended, but also if it was not. Also, the hardest thing to do sometimes is to forgive oneself for past harm caused to others.

Forgiveness for me leads to acceptance. It involves taking a deep breath, putting things in their proper perspective, and letting go of my expectation that the outcome should have been different. It is a good thing.

Please don't be so hard on yourself or her.
:hugs:

[tricia_uktv]

You what? I'm just being me!

[Adrianna_Sofia]

Hmmm...WWJD?

I think the "forgiveness" that we may seek is actually that of acceptance. I myself am a devout Catholic and at times feel conflicted by my urges to CD and feel guilty after the fact. Cross dressing per se is not, from what I know, a real "sin". The passage that some people cite in the book of Deuteronomy regarding CD whic goes like "a woman shall not wear a man's clothing. a man shall not wear woman's clothing. Both are abominable". But then again this and other rigid laws were given to the Israelites by God because that time the people of God were easily swayed by their own desires. Fast forward centuries later God sent His Son to be the savior of man kind...Most of Jesus' teachings were considered heretical by the scribes because unlike them who are rigid and interpret The Law as is, Jesus gave emphasis to the Spirit of the law...

Some passages worth considering:
"He who is without sin cast the first stone."
"Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven"

So I think that if indeed that your CDing might seem as an offensive act specially for your SO, then by all means ask for forgiveness. And if others are hostile towards you just say a little prayer in your heart and say "I forgive you".

[JoannaCaroline]

While it may not be relevant to you, Stephanie, a considerable number of people on this planet still hold to the "Old" Testament.

Nonetheless, that particular line in the Bible, Deuteronomy 22:5, may not apply to crossdressers.

Persephone, Those who still hold on to the Old testament usually only hold on to very selective parts. Devout Jews may be the exception but the old testament specifically forbids touching and eating pork, and eating shrimp and shellfish. I grew up in a very religious community and they completely ignored these restrictions.

Old testament also gives permission for things like taking slaves, selling your own daughter into slavery, and stoning your neighbors for breaking a few of the old testament rules. Most Christians seem to have conveniently forgotten about these things too.

[JoAnne Wheeler]

I agree with Debra Jane that we should not have to be forgiven for something

that we were born with - I feel so strongly that we are BORN this way - it

would be wonderful being this way IF we did not have to deal with all the hurt

and baggage that comes along with it - I think we are the ones who need to

try to forgive those who hurt us, those who mock us, those who harrass us,

those who harrass us, those who are ignorant about us, those who are

intolerant of us, those who are judgmental about us, those who refuse to

even try to accept us. We are the ones who have been abused. If there

is forgiveness to be given, then it should be by us.

JoAnne Wheeler

[Mercedes]

Forgiveness comes (assuming one wants to) after actions or words that are meant to hurt or offend but should not be based upon who someone is.

I will never apologized for being a crossdresser but I have apologized when I have broken a promise about crossdressing (to my SO).

Mercedes XOXOXO

[alexmusic]

We are who we are and we are all wonderful human beings, we do not need to be forgiven for that. The only forgiveness I’ve needed was to forgive myself for not cutting myself enough slack in the past and for trying to bury who I am rather than dealing with it.

But from anyone else…….nope don’t need to be forgiven.

[Annaliese]

Yes we should ask for forgiveness, If we have lied to our wifes, taken there clothes with out asking. I will not ask forgiveness for who I am.

Hugs to all
Annaliese

[Hope]

Forgiveness is for the person doing the forgiving.

It is a common misunderstanding that forgiveness is for the person being forgiven.

Forgiving someone releases that jagged little pit of pain of hurt and anger that we have been carrying around against that person and allows us to live freer more comfortable lives.

Conversely, if a person feels guilty - being forgiven almost never relieves that guilt - and if a person does not feel guilty - forgiveness often seems like an insult. Just look at many of the above responses.

Even if you don't feel like you need to be forgiven by your wife - let her forgive you anyway. It's about her need to forgive, not your need to be forgiven.

[Lorileah]

I require forgiveness for many things. As they say it is easier to ask forgiveness than permission. But I don't regret many things. One of my favorite quotes was from the movie The Cowboys with Roscoe Lee Browne. "I regret trifling with married women. I'm thoroughly ashamed at cheating at cards. I deplore my occasional departures from the truth. Forgive me for taking your name in vain, my Saturday drunkenness, my Sunday sloth. Above all, forgive me for the men I've killed in anger..."

I do not need forgiveness for being who I am. I NEED respect for that. I am a good person. I am a caring person. I just happen to be very comfortable in certain items of clothing. If you don't like that, I will forgive you for your intolerance and ignorance.

[Senban]

Well there's plenty I need forgiveness for and plenty I need to forgive myself for in my life but being transgendered just ain't one of them. Anyone who tells me that my being transgendered is a sin or something that requires forgiveness had better be prepared to be arguing all night.

As for the Biblical stuff, I'm a one-girl abomination. In fact the original Commandments included an eleventh entry which read "Yea verily, watch out for that bloody Sen girl" but it was deemed apocryphal and removed. Apparently there's a motion to have it put back :heehee: j/k

JoannaCaroline said - "Old testament also gives permission for things like taking slaves, selling your own daughter into slavery, and stoning your neighbors for breaking a few of the old testament rules."

Can I start with my neighbours for being annoyingly noisy? :Angry3:

[Persephone]

Persephone, Those who still hold on to the Old testament usually only hold on to very selective parts. Devout Jews may be the exception but the old testament specifically forbids touching and eating pork, and eating shrimp and shellfish. I grew up in a very religious community and they completely ignored these restrictions.

Old testament also gives permission for things like taking slaves, selling your own daughter into slavery, and stoning your neighbors for breaking a few of the old testament rules. Most Christians seem to have conveniently forgotten about these things too.

This is not the time nor the place for a strictly religious debate, but let's just say that I would take considerable exception to what I would regard as your negative, erroneous, and overly simplistic attempt to interpret the Bible.

[Tora]

There are many things I hope GOD will forgive my failings, or actions. This hobby is not one of them. If the hobby offens other people, sorry, but get over it. I am a lot of things: proud husband, father, grandfather, provider, ect., oh ya and I love to dress as a woman, it is a small, but important part of who I am.

[docrobbysherry]

When I come out of the Fog, I ONLY need to be able to forgive MYSELF!:doh:

And I'm still working on that!:brolleyes:

[battybattybats]

If anything there are a couple things we might need forgiveness for...

Borrowing others clothes when we start

Hiding part of ourselves, even from ourselves

Listening to the anti-TG lies

Feelling shame and guilt for being a CD

Cowering to the terrorism of threats of violence and ostracism

Staying in the closet to our detriment, our families and our communities

Letting others fight our battles for us (women manged to fight for their rights so why can't we!)

We need to forgive ourselves for struggling with our CDing, forgive ourselves for trying to quit etc.

But forgiveness is worthless as justice without redress! Where we cannot undo what wrongs we have done we must make up in good and right the equal weight of our wrongs!

So we should forgive ourselves and then we should begin to right our wrongs. Many of that is hard and it takes time to overcome terror, shame and guilt. Especially when we have obligations to family etc.

But part of our obligations are to society and to our fellow CDs especially the next generation of CDs to make the world better for them.. may THEY forgive our weakness, cowardice and our failings of our duties to THEM!

[kathtx]

It's hard to say it better than the last stanza of "A Dialogue of Self and Soul,"



I am content to follow to its source
Every event in action or in thought;
Measure the lot; forgive myself the lot!
When such as I cast out remorse
So great a sweetness flows into the breast
We must laugh and we must sing,
We are blest by everything,
Everything we look upon is blest.

W.B. Yeats

[Carin]

...yet perhaps your wife is looking to learn to forgive herself as well for any negativity she may feel towards the dressing? Another way for her to cope with something she may not have ever expected.

Just a thought... [/COLOR] :thinking:


...Forgiveness helps the person doing the forgiving more than the forgiven...


Forgiveness is for the person doing the forgiving....
:iagree:
I can't say it any better.

[Senban]

Battybattybats said - "But part of our obligations are to society and to our fellow CDs especially the next generation of CDs to make the world better for them.. may THEY forgive our weakness, cowardice and our failings of our duties to THEM!"

QFT.

[deja true]

I forgive myself for wasting decades in shame and guilt!

And my penance, just like Batty said, is to work like hell trying to make it up to younger sisters in the here and now and in the future.

Anybody who needs my forgiveness can take a running leap!

Karma will take care of them!

:straightface:

[2b.Lauren]

I could be wrong but maybe she went to that conference for various reasons other than the crossdressing. Only she is aware of that until she mentions more to you. Maybe she decided to attend because she has a desire to grow and learning forgivness is a great part of growing as human beings. Many have said that acceptance is the common thread for forgivness, and that too could be a part of her seeking this out. Once I/we can accept the many differences that humans have we can thus improve our own lives. We can then forgive ourselves for thinking or feeling the way we do about them and even ourselves. The guilt tied into CDing is huge, we all have either fealt it or continue to feel it daily, and I think that is what has spurred such a great debate over this thread. The journey for us in this life is still ongoing and we have so much to learn and to grow for ourselves and those around us.

I guess in response to the religious debate that has sort of grown in this thread, is that, I would prefer to see myself as a spiritual person and have moved away from my religiousity recently. My church affiliation has a highly negative opinion of many things that I have always questioned in a different way. Therefore, I found it easier to celebrate my deep feelings with God as I know him or even her, and to allow others that same freedom without judgement. Again the concept of acceptance has to be present even before I was able to reach this point.

[Sarah...]

Forgiveness is for the person doing the forgiving.



Forgiveness helps the person doing the forgiving more than the forgiven.


:iagree:
I can't say it any better.

Yes. That's a fair point. However there still has to be a perception on the part of the person doing the forgiving that some infraction of the "rules" has occurred that has caused their pain in the first place.

It's those "rules" that are at the root of whether forgiveness is required or not. As we see time and time again on this forum. Also, don't forget that the "rules" are slightly different in every case.

So, forgiveness for the way one was born is nonsensical. Now, how one behaves with the knowledge of who they are is a different thing entirely. There will often be forgiveness required in that area.

Sarah...

[jessiejess112]

I agree with everybody about not asking for forgiveness for who we are, but unfortunately life does not always work that way. Some of you, based on your posts, have understanding and open-minded family members, some like me, do not.
With this whole gay marriage issue on the news, the cousins I grew up with (who are like brothers to me) always make derogatory comments towards gay people and cross dressers. To people like them we are the same, it even seems like they have the most contempt for crossdressers.
I don't know if they make those comments because they suspect about me, and they would rather not know about what I do. But I've had nightmares where they find out, and I struggle to explain and have them accept me.
Then you also have the religious mentality in my family where homosexuality is a sin, and gay people need to ask for forgiveness for their sins. I would have to explain the difference between a straight crossdresser and gay people to people who are closed minded to begin with.
Needless to say, I have no intention of "coming out" to any of my family members, because frankly, they do not need to know. But like this quote clearly explains:



Entering into a marriage and withholding the fact you are a CD, finally telling your SO weeks, months even years later, then yes, you would need to be forgiven.

If that was the case, where a SO (who grew up with a family like mine) and didn't know about your CDing before marriage, found out about your crossdressing; I personally would ask for forgiveness if it leads to acceptance and understanding from her.

[Greymancd]

I was raised in a fundamentalist pentecostal church. You can interpret the bible any way you want and make it back up your point no matter what your point is; hence, there are so many different churches. I have left that part of my life behind and have moved on. Even though I have dressed the odd time over the years it has only been recently that I have felt the desire to dress more. I do not believe that I need to be forgiven for this. What is wrong with showing femininity it is our society that has this dictates it is not acceptable. I would say society is wrong. Years ago when I first started chatting on line people would ask are you male or female. I would answer 50/50, my father is male and my mother is female that makes me half and half! Maybe this was more true for me than I knew.

[CD Susan]

No, we most certainly do not need to be forgiven for being tg. We were given this gift at birth and we have done absolutely nothing that needs to be forgiven.

[Alberta_Girl77]

I want to view being a cd as a gift but right now I am wracked with guilt that in order to view it and embrace it as a gift I must lose my wife and family. (She knew on the first date.)

I identify as Catholic and, when I say Catholic, I mean I went to Mass every day as a child and was taught by very rigourous (and good) priests through high school and into university. There was a tremendous amount of shame in regards to my cd/tg feelings as a child and teenager and I hope, if not to forgive myself, learn to accept and embrace myself.

There have been times, over the last few weeks, that I have cursed myself, my thoughts and my feelings. I wish that it wasn't an either/or choice. And, rather than going to sleep wishing that I would wake up a girl... I go to sleep wishing I would wake up "normal". I look forward to these feelings passing as acceptance, peace and consolation grows.

Anyways... I'm rambling.

[Nicki B]

Forgive her?




.

[sissystephanie]

While it may not be relevant to you, Stephanie, a considerable number of people on this planet still hold to the "Old" Testament.

Nonetheless, that particular line in the Bible, Deuteronomy 22:5, may not apply to crossdressers.

I did not mean the Old Testament was not relevant! Only that applying Deuteronomy 22:5 to CD's was not relevant!

[Jacquilynne]

Changing your sex is a sin because you are defiling the body that God gave you.




I have often wondered . . .how fine a line are we walking toward this idea? If we think of ourselves as a CDs or transgendered then are we not in sin and have we not defiled our bodies in a manner of speaking even if we have not physically changed our bodies? God being omniscient or "all knowing" knows our thoughts even before they become actions . And could simply the action of presenting as a woman whether in our closet and even out for others to see be viewed as defiling ourselves in His eyes?

Is this issue black or white or simply shades of gray?

I have often wondered in the last month if I, because of my presenting as a woman in view of my family, had sinned and needed forgiveness. It was partially because I pushed the comfort level of my wife and stretched her boundaries that she finally was so freaked out and left me. She could not live with her husband turning into a woman before her eyes. I have come to realize that I have sinned against her and DO need her forgiveness and have asked her to forgive me for my part in destroying our marriage relationship. This is a black and white issue -- I did wrong, I need forgiveness!

In addition to defiling our bodies how about if we defile our role as men, husbands, and leaders of our household?

Are we not defiling our role as leader of our household if we "present" as a woman? Since we are predestined by God as males (we were born as males thus we have been predestined as males) and if according to the bible as males we are to be the leader and role model of our household doesn't it follow that if we shun this responsibility , we are defiling His plan for our lives thus we can be said to have defiled our responsibility to our families and have sinned against them..

Is this a shade of gray? what are your thoughts? IMHO I say that we if we can be shown that we are in the wrong and truly believe we are wrong, then we need forgiveness.

just a few added thoughts and questions to add to this great post :)

[battybattybats]

Originally Posted by sissystephanie
Changing your sex is a sin because you are defiling the body that God gave you.



I have often wondered . . .how fine a line are we walking toward this idea?

The idea that surgery is defiling the sacred would mean not only no more cosmetic surgery but no more fixing of birth defects, deformities.. even removing of cancer. God out the cancer there, who would we be to defy gods wishes by removing it etc.

In fact it goes against all medicine!

I don't recall any biblical arguments against surgery or medicine so it's not a theologically valid christian idea, though some other religions it can be argued in for sure.

Every day surgery is performed on people. dental work for example. Fixing badly broken bones and saving eyesight.

[Nicki B]

Is this issue black or white or simply shades of gray?

Didn't your God make you the way you are? Why should anyone think He made a 'mistake', unless they are extremely arrogant?

All this talk of 'roles' is surely a man-made construction..

[suzanneq]

Forgiven for what,do you feel you have done something wrong?,dont think so somehow,i think we are the lucky ones even if we arent accepted,they dont know what there missing

[deja true]

All this talk of 'roles' is surely a man-made construction.. said Nicki B....



Exactly! The style of the clothes we wear is strictly a cultural construct. And what we are culturally supposed to wear changes over time and place. Half of the world's populations still wear what we would consider asexual or generic body coverings. From nothing but a string of beads to long flowing robes that fit either gender. The god of Moses had a sentence or two to say about clothes (but then again,he seemed to be particularly judgemental about a lot of things, didn't he?), but I doubt if the Buddha or Vishnu or any one of hundreds of other gods even bothered to mention it!

The interpreters of the sacred words, whether the priestly caste or the politicians who made up the rules of taboos as they went along, were the humans who told us what god really meant. And,as we've often found out, it's usually the humans who make the rules that are the first to break them.

Instilling guilt and fear and taboos is the way that the powerful stay powerful. Fear of the foreigner, fear of the eccentric, fear of the police, fear of the wrath of the state, fear of the gods.

The more you fear, the less truly free you really are.

I don't fear god any more,so, as far as that goes, I don't feel guilty any more. It took way too long, but I finally realized that god doesn't care what I wear to please myself. As long as I don't hurt anybody else because of it, she sees that I'm a good person. And she's happy for me that I can be so happy doing such a frivolous thing!