Society is not to blame

[Sheila]

Only society decided that what we are is wrong, we had no choice about it, we were born as we are!!
The above quote from Debs is taken fom this thread Do we need to be forgiven? (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104505)
I repeat, once more, WE, ALL OF US, ARE PART OF THE SOCIETY WE CHOOSE TO BLAME FOR OUR WOE .......... and until we/you are strong enough to go forth and be who you are, you have noone else to blame for societies view .................. and before you shoot me there are CDERRS who do go forth on a daily basis dressed as they choose and good on them I applaude they strength, they interact with society as who they are, sure it is not alwauys easy for them, but then it is not easy for a lot of people who do what is required for them to lead the lives that they want to lead.

[Fab Karen]

Quite right. Society once said being an independent woman was "wrong", society once said being black was "wrong", society once said being gay was "wrong" - these things changed because some people didn't sit at home quietly grumbling to themselves about the injustice.

[trannie T]

I was not aware that society had deemed crossdressing as being wrong. To my knowledge most areas in the western world have no laws against crossdressing and I have heard of no campaigns against crossdressing. It may be regarded as less than acceptable of even silly but it is still permitted and for the most part tolerated.

Threads like this one make me weary, I have too much fun going out to worry about what people may think of my choice in clothing.

[Deborah Jane]

The above quote from Debs is taken fom this thread Do we need to be forgiven? (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104505)
I repeat, once more, WE, ALL OF US, ARE PART OF THE SOCIETY WE CHOOSE TO BLAME FOR OUR WOE .......... and until we/you are strong enough to go forth and be who you are, you have noone else to blame for societies view .................. and before you shoot me there are CDERRS who do go forth on a daily basis dressed as they choose and good on them I applaude they strength, they interact with society as who they are, sure it is not alwauys easy for them, but then it is not easy for a lot of people who do what is required for them to lead the lives that they want to lead.

Problem one....Changing societys long held view of us isn't exactly going to be easy, for a start, even now children are brought up to believe that if it's differant, it's wrong/perverse/whatever!!

Problem two, the people who instigate those views are very much of the old way of thinking, it doesn't matter what we do, we'll never change how they view us!!

Changing society?
It'll never happen, too many people in the higher up positions have too much to lose by allowing our general acceptance in society, they probably regard us as a threat in some way!

Basically this is the way of things, unless we fit into some conveniant little box, it doesn't matter what we do, we'll never have full acceptance!!

Living our lives and being completely free to do so without any fear of ridicule/backlash, etc?

Not in this society!!!!

Me personnally...I do whatever i like, if society don't like it.....Tough!!!

[kellycan27]

You said a mouthful sister. i think that sometimes the society monster is in our heads, in as much as it keeps us bottled up and in fear .Fear of what though? Physical injury? arrest? or the fear that we will be ridiculed or laughed at? that we will be humiliated? When I see these success stories,almost on a daily basis now, " I finally did it", "I went out today" , "I went shopping today" .. and it was wonderful, I can't wait to do it again! " I flew" "I drove" , "I walked"..... I have to wonder.. where is this fear of society coming from? I don't see horror stories, a small incident now and then, but nothing catastrophic. Mostly positive results. When I read these great stories, I just sort of smile and say to myself... yup, another one just slipped through the cracks. Another lucky sister finally figured it out. And I am betting that those lucky girls are probably sitting there just reading these type threads... smiling and shaking their heads and wondering who's going to be next.

[Gabrielle Hermosa]

...WE, ALL OF US, ARE PART OF THE SOCIETY WE CHOOSE TO BLAME FOR OUR WOE ...

If your main argument against "society is to blame" is that we cannot blame a society that we are a part of, then I'd say it seems more like an issue of semantics. Being a part of a society does not mean that one must adhere to its generally accepted rules and does not mean that one cannot place blame on that society simply because one exists within it. However, I may have misunderstood the quoted statement.

I'm going to disagree with the message though. I wholeheartedly believe that society is absolutely blame for the problems we face in being who we are. I blame society and its handed down from generation to generation "gender rules" and "punishments for not adhering to them".

I blame society's intolerance of people like me for causing all the confusion I grew up with. I grew up hating myself because everyone in my world (in other words, "society") reinforced that men need to be masculine, manly, tough, etc. Any man who wanted to wear women's clothes is something to be laughed at and made fun of. It is a deviant behavior and perversion. THAT is what society taught me. That is why I hated myself. That is why I spent most of my life confused about who and what I am.

There was no way in hell I could have ever grown up as a kid being allowed by my parents to dress and look the way I would have chosen. I had no way to "stand tall and proud" to be a crossdresser. My parents laid down the law, reinforced the belief that this was a terrible and deviant behavior, and that was that.

So I do blame them - I blame society for this crap we have to deal with.

Society dictates what is socially acceptable and not acceptable. Yes, we can make changes within this society that we are a part of, but right now, today, tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, etc. - this is the reality. With few exceptions, society does not want us around. Society will continue to try and repress us and perpetuate the lies (that many of them do not even understand are lies).

There is no way I cannot blame society. I cannot see any way in which "society is not to blame". I grew up in this society and I blame it. I also intend to change it, if only one mind at a time. But right now, things are how they are, society is what it is, and I most certainly blame society for the trouble most of it gives us.

I respect anyone who believes that "society is not to blame", but I disagree.

[kellycan27]

I think that it works both ways in as much as many of us still view society in "the old way of thinking." And no matter what, nothing is going to change their view. The gays found more acceptance, but they aren't viewed in the same way, because our thing is especially wierd. Nobody ever thought that gays were preverted,or sick or that they didn't molest children..or any of those awful things that they think about us. yeah I am sure.

Society doesn't have to do a darn thing to keep us down or prepetuate these myths. we do it ourselves. We sit here and complain and piss and moan about society, and spread fear amoung ourselves. There are no roving death squads out there, no police searching for us.
We hold eachother back because we are afraid of what? A little ridicule? some laughter? embarassment? If we sit in the closet until we are sure that everything will be peachy, until we have nothing to fear.... you're right..it's never going to happen.

[Sheila]

Problem one....Changing societys long held view of us isn't exactly going to be easy, for a start, even now children are brought up to believe that if it's differant, it's wrong/perverse/whatever!!

Well now are you calling me a bad parent here ............ all of my kidds have been brought up to acept the differences in people ........... all 3 of my kids have met several CDERS and to my knowledge not one of them have been, rude, or ignorant to the crossdressing in principal or in actuallity ..... in fact my youngest is perhaps the one who is coolest with it all bless him :)


Problem two, the people who instigate those views are very much of the old way of thinking, it doesn't matter what we do, we'll never change how they view us!!

Sometimes the old way of thinking is the better way ........ and if you do not like that way of thinking then actively do something to change peoples views, eduate them, challange their way of thinking ............ if you don't then you lead them to believe their views are right and just and allow them to influence the next generation, and that to my mind is wrong.


Changing society?
It'll never happen, too many people in the higher up positions have too much to lose by allowing our general acceptance in society, they probably regard us as a threat in some way!

it will never happen if you do not do something to change it ...... if you begin at the bottom and convert one person to your way of thinking and they convert another, and they another, soon you have changed a lot of peoples views and that is how a democratic society works ...... them at the top can make as many laws as they like and we may have to abide by them or suffer the consequences, but they cannot make us like it ........ revolutions have been born from them at the top getting it wrong so many times till us little peeps said NO MORE :)



Basically this is the way of things, unless we fit into some conveniant little box, it doesn't matter what we do, we'll never have full acceptance!!

Living our lives and being completely free to do so without any fear of ridicule/backlash, etc?

but it is, you by your own fear that place yourself in that box ........... like I said in my OP there are many CDERS & I forgot to mention TS's (sorry girls:o) that are already out there doing it .. Hats off to them


Not in this society!!!!

NOT with that attitude no you may well be right ........... but with a different one Maybe Just Maybe you would get a different answer


Me personnally...I do whatever i like, if society don't like it.....Tough!!!

But you don't Debs, you might like to think so but you don't .... none of us can

[Shelly Preston]

Society is everyone of us

We have the power to change it all be it ever so slowly

I overheard a conversation at work last week in which a colleague mentioned that the majority of CD's were straight

So somethings are getting out to the public also the awareness has been raised by crosdressing and / or transexuallity being portrayed in the media in prime time soap operas

Some people will never change their attitude but if we dont try it will never happen

Getting out there on a regular basis is not easy, especially if you have commitments to family etc, and who could be affected by some small minded people

All we can do is educate people where and when we can :2c:

[AmberDay]

I find myself trying to blame society for the reason I don't go out in public and for the little time I get to dress. I come up with excuses like, people will laugh at me, I won't be allowed in stores, I might run into some children, my wife will divorce me if she found out; I know there isn't any law forbidding me from going out, but I am so concerned about how society would feel, that I don't put my own feelings into consideration. Maybe I should.

I agree with both sides of the debate.

Amber

[tricia_uktv]

Society is to blame for making it difficult for us; but then we are part of society. So get out there girls!

[Kate Simmons]

Sheila is right and while we maybe cannot control "society" we can control ourselves. Getting possession of our own "vessel" is what it is all about. How we act and interact with others makes the difference, crossdressing or being TG or TS notwithstanding. If none of these issues existed it would come down to people getting along as people. Acting as if and visualizing that has already happened is a step in the right direction as the people not the "condition" are the important thing.:)

[Samantha Kelsey]

I think that Sheila is correct. I also think that 'soceity' is very wary of the unknown and that this is how they think of CDing. They know it exists but most know nothing about it because most CDing goes on in secret. Only we, the crossdressers can change this. Women got themselves the vote, Ethnic citizens quite rightly got themselves respected and Gays got themselves recognised. You want to be up there with them? then unless you already have, get your a*** out of your closet and show the world who/what you are, NORMAL!!

[Crysten]

I think that it works both ways in as much as many of us still view society in "the old way of thinking." And no matter what, nothing is going to change their view. The gays found more acceptance, but they aren't viewed in the same way, because our thing is especially wierd. Nobody ever thought that gays were preverted,or sick or that they didn't molest children..or any of those awful things that they think about us. yeah I am sure.

Society doesn't have to do a darn thing to keep us down or prepetuate these myths. we do it ourselves. We sit here and complain and piss and moan about society, and spread fear amoung ourselves. There are no roving death squads out there, no police searching for us.
We hold eachother back because we are afraid of what? A little ridicule? some laughter? embarassment? If we sit in the closet until we are sure that everything will be peachy, until we have nothing to fear.... you're right..it's never going to happen.

I understand Los Angeles has roving death squads - and they ARE the police. Seems there was just another story out of Texas as well. Something about the officer pulling his gun on the couple who rolled through a stop light to get to the dying mother in law.

My opinion is that ignorance abounds. Some of it is innocent, and some of it is willful. There are people roaming the earth whom you would not want to meet in a dark alley. Many of these are the self-righteous "born-again" types, so full of hate and loathing for anything "different" from their own personal set of beliefs that it makes them dangerous. So, while 98% of the population may be indifferent to us, there's definitely that 2% to be avoided at all costs. Two percent might not sound like a lot - but it's roughly 2.5 million of the current US population.

And - I reserve the right to piss and moan in my own home. Jeesh, this IS America after all!! :)

Crysten

[RylieCD]

Who ever said this whould be easy? We are still fighting racism in areas and accepting sexulaity in others, it takes time.


As shiliea said in another post, it is also on how you raise your children. Sure we can try to change society by being in their face and letting them know it is ok and that we are not going away. But I see it in my own parents on how they were raised. My father was raised more from the old wa of thinking and he carries that on (thinking of "womens work" and the womens place is at home not that he admits to it). mothers side is a little younger and more open minded, still have some views but you can see a difference with a small age difference. Point - Although you may not see society changing, it is, it just takes time. some longer than others.

[Karren H]

Well I'm not blaming anyone...... I'd rather spend my time having fun rather than trying to figure out who to blame or who to forgive!!!

[Sheila]

Well I'm not blaming anyone...... I'd rather spend my time having fun rather than trying to figure out who to blame or who to forgive!!!

and you are one of those i am applauding here Karen


.................. and before you shoot me there are CDERRS who do go forth on a daily basis dressed as they choose and good on them I applaude they strength, they interact with society as who they are, sure it is not always easy for them, but then it is not easy for a lot of people who do what is required for them to lead the lives that they want to lead.

[TxKimberly]

It has so far been my experience that society does NOT have a problem with us.
I spent a lot of time in the world, and despite what you may think looking at my pics, I do not pass up close and personal. in all of these years, I've met far more people that will smile and say hello than people that glare and ignore me. At least in the "Western" countries, society does not have a problem with us, we are just AFRAID society will have a problem with us. As Sheila has pointed out, that makes the problem pretty much ours and not society's.

[TGMarla]

Society is what people have made it to be. It is an ever-evolving fluid thing that changes over time. Gay people never had much open freedom until they went out of their way to change things. Our situation is different, though. Gay people don't go around emulating the other gender. Apples and oranges. But society is becomming more tolerant of alternative lifestyles, and eventually, society will not care at all about who does what anymore. Society is not to blame here; it simply has not evolved to the point where all behaviors are fully tolerated.

And Kimberly has a whole lot more experience out and about in the world than I do. When I have gone out, I have had no problems at all. It's likely that most of our problem is in our collective heads.

[Lisa Golightly]

To be perfectly honest the worst abuse I've ever received has been from within the 'scene' by which I mean the TG scene. Society in general seems to let me get on with it...

[Christina Horton]

I have been going out dressed as a women for about 15 times now , wow I allmost lost count on how many time's I have been out . I all way wished I could pass perficty ,but the last few times out I started to think "If I passed 100% then no one out there would see me and think (I just saw a man in a dress neet)" or something like that. If I go out and look good but not 100% more people will see CD's out there and maybe I could in a small way help change the public way of thinking. I have educated many if not in the 100's or even in the 1000's of them about us . Not just the hedro CD but all of us and 99% of the people seem to be fine with it. Most are shocked when I tell them how many of us there are, and how many CDers are not gay. Most people think just cuz we dress as women we have to be gay like Ru Paul e.t.c. I just tell them some are but most are not. Just the ones they see on the TV and in the movie's are what they see. Not that that's a bad thing , but just that We as a hole don't have a ROLE MODEL Like Ru Paul or someone. am watching Ru Paul's drag race right now too. LOL. Maybe one of us should do it. I would love to be I am a camra hog after all. LOL. HUGGS : hugs: :canada:

[Mirani]

I live 24/7 as Mirani. I get on with my life and for the most part so does everyone else.
Some may laugh behind my back. Some may point or stare. Some are rude.
Says everything about them and nothing about me!

I have had the help and encouragement, love and support of my partner. She showed me the way . . in all honesty I wouldn't be where I am without her. The "courage" to be me came from facing the world and finding out that the world, on the whole, doesn't give a hoot.

The only thing that has changed . . . is me!

[battybattybats]

The above quote from Debs is taken fom this thread Do we need to be forgiven? (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104505)
I repeat, once more, WE, ALL OF US, ARE PART OF THE SOCIETY WE CHOOSE TO BLAME FOR OUR WOE

While it's true WE are the only ones who have a reason to change this and so we must acknowledge that the responsibility of changing this is up to us as we are a part of society nevertheless we are also a product of the society that existed as we grew up! Our parents generation and before are responsible for the situation we have been in. We are the ones responsible for changing it.


.......... and until we/you are strong enough to go forth and be who you are, you have noone else to blame for societies view ..................

Yes we do! All the people who spread hate about CDs, crushed and destroyed CD culture, outlawed and banned CDing etc. But we have no-one to blame but ourselves for societies view not changing back in the future if we don't act!

The difference is vitally important!


I was not aware that society had deemed crossdressing as being wrong.

So why on earth do you think something found in every society througout all history that was often not just tolerated or accepted but reverred has gone into the closet in the first place? Why is it just a few holdouts like Tonga and Samoa while in just a few centuries Australia, the Americas, much of the Islamic World, much of Asia and much of Polynesia went from CDs out in the open and accepted and even reverred to being in the closet hiding?

Where did the closet come from????


To my knowledge most areas in the western world have no laws against crossdressing

The Compton Cafeteria Riots and the Stonewall Uprising were violent riots against laws against crossdressing! That was what, 40 years ago. And following that was years of political and legal struggle to get anti-CD laws overturned accross much of the western world! The reaosn the laws aren't there is that hard work was done, mostly by Drag Queens and Transsexuals and Gays & Lesbian allies.


and I have heard of no campaigns against crossdressing.

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103244

Thats the current face of it right there!



Changing society?
It'll never happen, too many people in the higher up positions have too much to lose by allowing our general acceptance in society, they probably regard us as a threat in some way!


Literally that exact same thought was expressed by many women a few generations ago. African Americans too. Australian Aboriginal and Torres Straight Islanders and Gays & lesbians.

Yet they all have changed society drastically in a short period of time! All those struggles is ongoing but massive leaps have been made for each of them.

There is no reason I have ever heard that we would be any different than they! All we have to do is what they did!


Gay people never had much open freedom until they went out of their way to change things. Our situation is different, though. Gay people don't go around emulating the other gender. Apples and oranges.

Except for those that do! There are gay CDs too!

No, society IS to blame. And WE are responsible for fixing the mess. So long as we stop pretending we can't! Even from within the closet we can act to change things!

[Sheila]

No, society IS to blame. And WE are responsible ]

No it ain't Batty ....... like you said YOU are responsible .... but not for fixing the mess ... your responsability lies in being open and honest and living your life with dignity and honsety, for being true to who you are and not waiting for the brave sould to go out and venture forth do do it for you

[battybattybats]

No it ain't Batty ....... like you said YOU are responsible .... but not for fixing the mess ...

Then who will fix the mess?


your responsability lies in being open and honest and living your life with dignity and honsety, for being true to who you are

Can you point out to me which civil rights victories were won that way alone?

I do live my life honestly, with dignity. I'm obviously a gender-free goth 24/7. Not lying. I wear makeup doing the shopping nearly every week. My nails are always long and painted, changing colour every week.

I have not been out fully dressed often (but my disability makes that very difficult!) yet I have done so a handful of occassions amongst my own community meeting people I know who recognised me instantly!

And yet not everyone can be out. But that does not get them off the hook! They can still do more and they have a responsibility too whether from the closet or not.


and not waiting for the brave sould to go out and venture forth do do it for you

I'm not. I'm quoted in two transgender issues Australian Human Rights Reports! I have had a significant impact on the reccomendations made to the Australian Government on changing the way documentation issues of Transgender and Intersex people is handled! I have had corresspondance with two influential Australian federal politicians. And I'm actively involved in the campain to get a bill/statute/charter of Rights in this country!

That's hardly waiting for others! And it's effecting far more change than going shopping in my girliest gear would because what I've been doing effects the lives of people accross the whole continent!

And all that important stuff could have been done by anyone no matter how deeply closeted! So I'm doing this on three fronts, my small rural local community by clearly breaking strict binary gender rules (which if went fully femme and i passed would do nothing!) so that on a fair few occassions people have perceived me as female even in mostly male clothes, and online where my words can educate far more people than I could ever meet in one day of dressed shopping and also on federal laws and human rights where my small efforts can positively effect the lives of thousands of CDs and TSs!

Yes being out in person helps susbtantially and more profoundly influences the people you talk to who get to know you. But engaging in online discussion reaches more people and the closeted can still do that! And being involved in writing letters to local representatives etc is something anyone can do too!

No-one capable of being on this forum has any excuse not to do at least some of those!

[Michelia]

I'm too tired to reply.

All I can say is I enjoyed the thread. Thanks to all for their viewpoints. There is not question, threads like these in sites like this one read by us all, help. I know I do my share like so many of you are out there doing.

But I would never be doing it if it wasn't for everyone of you contributing posts like these. So keep it going!

And as always, thanks Batty for your words of wisdom.

[sometimes_miss]

Kellycan 27 wrote:
The gays found more acceptance, but they aren't viewed in the same way, because our thing is especially wierd. Nobody ever thought that gays were preverted,or sick or that they didn't molest children..or any of those awful things that they think about us. yeah I am sure.
What planet do you live on? There are still lots of people out there that think homosexuality is an insult to their god, and would like nothing better than to rid 'his world' of the sinners. I think you've spent a little too much time in the little corner of the world where us gender bending folks exist. The real world isn't nearly as tolerant as you might think. As someone else wrote in another thread, sure, 98% of the population might not be bothered with us at all, but that 2% means that there are still 2 million crazy people out there that want us gone in any way possible. That's a lot of people chasing us down an alley with pitchforks, torches and clubs.

and
There are no roving death squads out there, no police searching for us.

O.K., so you live where 'what happens in vegas, stays in vegas. Or maybe you don't follow the news. But there are plenty of people who hate us and would like nothing better than to hit us over the head multiple times with a heavy object, and rejoice when they're done.
Or, maybe you can easily pass (at least your avatar seems to indicate you can) and not wind up like a walking beacon of 'how not to dress as a girl if you are a man'.
Whatever. It's not all in our minds.
Yes, we are part of society, but we aren't a big enough part to set the rules of conduct.

Society as a whole may not be entirely to blame, but much of it is.

[Deborah Jane]

.
Whatever. It's not all in our minds.
Yes, we are part of society, but we aren't a big enough part to set the rules of conduct.

Society as a whole may not be entirely to blame, but much of it is.

Exactly!!!!!

How can we as a minority group change society??

Simple....We can't!!

By all means feel free to go out whenever and wherever you like, just make sure you can handle the "crazies"....
Just be prepared to do them what they would do to you :devil:

[Sheila]

Exactly!!!!!

How can we as a minority group change society??

Simple....We can't!!

By all means feel free to go out whenever and wherever you like, just make sure you can handle the "crazies"....
Just be prepared to do them what they would do to you :devil:

and with attitudes like yours it will never ever be changed ..................... thank goodness for the rational, open minded individuals who believe :hugs: to them all

[Deborah Jane]

thank goodness for the rational, open minded individuals who believe :hugs: to them all

Yeah, good luck to them, i just hope they know how to defend themselves from the nutters out there!!

[Rachel Morley]

I'm not going to get into this debate ... but I will say this: IMHO (and going on my own personal experiences) when I actually got out there in regular mainstream places fully dressed, it wasn't anywhere nearly a bad as my fears had me to believe. I did of course crap myself when I first experienced getting read, because I thought there would be a confrontation likely to happen, but surprisingly nothing bad has ever happened to me. I've never so much as had a word said to me. I sometimes get some double takes but most of the time people ignore me. The people I have interacted with in public places didn't give me a hard time. They didn't always accept me with a happy cheerful smile either, but it's never been a problem particularly (not yet anyway).

However, having that said all that, there are places in general society I wouldn't want go to when dressed (especially at night). IMHO, and speaking generally, I would say that there more places that tolerate us than don't tolerate us :2c:

[Sandra]

Exactly!!!!!

How can we as a minority group change society??




By getting out there :) You did and just maybe those who looked, might just have had their ideas changed by seeing you. :)

There will always be some in the society we live in who just will not ever accept people who are TGs, but if people just sit behind closed doors then things will never change, and that is sad.

[Fab Karen]

Exactly!!!!!

How can we as a minority group change society??



Some black people said that, but enough said,"we're not gonna take it anymore," and now we have a black President.

[Kelli Michelle]

The blame igame is overblown sometimes, but if one MUST pick who is to blame, it certainly is not the CDer. I don't see how anyone could say that. Being part of society doesn't make us responsible (individually) for prejudices against cders, gays, etc, except in the broadest sense possible.

That being said, we have to work to change things just like our gay/lesbian brothers and sisters did. We have to strive to live with dignity, educate those who are ignorant, and strive to raise our children in a non judgemental atmosphere. If we fail to do these things, we risk letting the bulk of society make decisions about TG people by default.

It's sort of an interesting topic, but blaming others isn't going to raise awareness/acceptance to the levels we wish for.

[Sandra]

I for one am not blaming any cder who doesn't get out there in society. It's hard, and it's scary, but I do belive that if more got out and as Kelli has said "educate those who are ignorant, and strive to raise our children in a non judgemental atmosphere" then IMO society could change, but sitting behind the curtains and doing nothing is not going to help.

[Nicki B]

It crosses my mind to wonder how many of those who are so vehement that nothing can ever change, and how unaccepting the world is, actually get out into the real world very often?

So often on this forum views are expressed which seem simply to be aimed to reinforce the decision to stay in a nice, warm, safe closet... :sad:



Problem one....Changing societys long held view of us isn't exactly going to be easy, for a start, even now children are brought up to believe that if it's differant, it's wrong/perverse/whatever!!

So, you think it's not even worth trying, then? :rolleyes:


The real world isn't nearly as tolerant as you might think.

Middle America is not the whole world.. Or are you perhaps, really talking about yourself?


As someone else wrote in another thread, sure, 98% of the population might not be bothered with us at all, but that 2% means that there are still 2 million crazy people out there that want us gone in any way possible. That's a lot of people chasing us down an alley with pitchforks, torches and clubs.

Do they do that torches and pitchforks thing a lot where you live??? :strugglin


Isn't the population of the US around 300 million? And the world is well up above six billion, now..

But - if the population of trans people is over 2% (I've seen figures bandied about on here from 1-10%), does that mean we outnumber them? :D

[Deborah Jane]

By getting out there :) You did and just maybe those who looked, might just have had their ideas changed by seeing you. :)



Some black people said that, but enough said,"we're not gonna take it anymore," and now we have a black President.



So, you think it's not even worth trying, then? :rolleyes:


Damn, my arguments sprung more leaks than a government department :o :eek:

Goes back to pub!!!

[Nicki B]

Goes back to pub!!!

Make sure you're dressed as a girl..

[Lorileah]

We have met the enemy and they are us.

Just a few points. Sheila said sometimes the old ways are better. If that were true we would be using the internet by candlelight. Many of the old mores and codes were designed by a specific group of people (read men) who were trying to protect the status quo. They worked because the people in power had the golden rule, those with the gold make the rules. Things change. I won't say always for the better but they do change. In my mind, the whole crossdressing taboo was when some uppity up was "fooled" by a man who appeared to be female and he had to make the rule to maintain his dignity (however I also think he enjoyed it which made it an even greater sin).

Can we change this? Absolutely. Us old geezers (I know I am old when three layers of Spackle still does not cover the cracks) have seen it go from an illegality or illness to almost (note almost) acceptable. This is because it isn't taught as a bad thing anymore. Younger people now see it as an interesting but benign pastime. It is the older people and the (opiate of the masses) people who still make a big deal over it. To them we will always be perverts and/or clowns. Mainstream media does not help us here. Gender blending is a normal part of many younger peoples' lives. Personally I don't think I am a great warrior in this battle because I try to LOOK like a woman. Our foot soldiers are the "blokes in dresses".

Time will tell on this. Because we as men no longer have to hunt and kill to survive, we can blend more towards the gender neutral. How many of those guys who pulled Wall Street down could field dress a moose like Ms Palin (oops sorry politics slipped out)? Those guys sure like their silk ties and custom tailored suits and little femme loafers. It wotrks the opposite way too. Women are moving towards gender equality. Will it happen in our lifetime? Probably not. But maybe in the future there will be an Eddie Izzard holiday.:heehee:

[kellycan27]

Laugh at me, hang me, jail me,beat me, make it a crime. this is my life, and this was the way I am supposed to be. If I can't live MY life being who I truly am.. I might as well be dead,because what would be the point? it's taken me 10+ years, pain and sorrow and suffering to get to a point where I am comfortable with myself and my direction in life. Nobody is going to take that from me..noboby!
That's my story and I am sticking to it.

[Hope]

I repeat, once more, WE, ALL OF US, ARE PART OF THE SOCIETY WE CHOOSE TO BLAME FOR OUR WOE .......... and until we/you are strong enough to go forth and be who you are, you have noone else to blame for societies view .................. and before you shoot me there are CDERRS who do go forth on a daily basis dressed as they choose and good on them I applaude they strength, they interact with society as who they are, sure it is not alwauys easy for them, but then it is not easy for a lot of people who do what is required for them to lead the lives that they want to lead.

So instead of blaming society, you would blame the TG community?

Honestly, just because we are members of society, it does not follow that we have control over society and can make society bend to fit our whims and our desires. Yes we are a part of society, but only a part.

I could appreciate the sentiment of your idea here (I think) - but could it come with a little less accusation please?

[battybattybats]

Exactly!!!!!

How can we as a minority group change society??

Simple....We can't!!

By all means feel free to go out whenever and wherever you like, just make sure you can handle the "crazies"....
Just be prepared to do them what they would do to you :devil:

Aboriginal Australians: couldn't vote, were not counted in the census, were not legally human people but covered under the native animals legislation, were stolen from their parents and taken across the country raised in christian 'mission schools' where they were forbidden to speak their language, follow any cultural and religious practices, were put into 'jobs' where their wages were paid to others 'on thier behalf' and no-one knows where 99% of that went, had to use segregated public ammenities and often none were provided... and because of disease (deliberatly spread to them) and casualties of resistance fighting and downright slaughter (considered as the culling of pests!) they numbered less than 4% of the population!

Yet they managed to change society! They have a lot more to do, but there are Aboriginal lawyers, doctors, politicians.. languages are being preserved as best they can, landrights claimed and far more.

Compared to what they have done in the last 60 years our struggle is easy. It's more than half done by the TSs and Drag Queens and Gays for us. CDs are approximately 10% of the population, far more of the population than Aboriginals with more money, resources, time and other power as well as far less legal repression.

I'm sure we could dramatically change society in only a decade with just 1 in 10 CDs trying. Even less time if more CDs got involved.

And thats my ultra-conservative estimate seeing as there have been a half doxen attempts to get TG equality in places accross the USA, Federal ENDA may be coming up again in just 12-24 months and the USA has signed a UN decleration for the decriminalisation of Gays and TGs and an end to violence against and oppression of them.

So if CDs get involved now, and ones in the closet can still contribute, then massive changes can occur in the next few years making TGs including CDs equally protected under the law as religious faiths and TG issues are getting now and will get far more increased media exposure whether we like it or not! So it's up to us to sway things in our favour or we will suffer for our uninvolvement!

Many gays were against trying to change things (see the documentary The Secret History Of Homosexual Australia) as it would expose them and make it hard to stay closeted and some were quite upset with the loud open out activists who brought attention to the community. The result though was that Gays have gained much progress.

Well TG is going to get more and more media exposure! The hate groups will spread lies, the activists will be trying to educate the masses, and people will start to notice subtle and even unconcious signs of femininity in people more and more as they become more aware of TG existence. Chances are that like Gays many will find the closet shrinking and being harder to hide inside.

[Jess_cd32]

I think my views about society are very well known here, they're total BS!, not only towards cd'ers but so many other good people that don't fit their ideas of normal.
I've always bucked the rules of society since my early teen years, I always had long hair and took the brunt of everything you could imagine being said about it from the 1960's on. I helped brave a path for the future long haired males and feel good about that.
I also fought societies rules hard for 8 years for childrens rights to have a father after divorces, because society said only a mother can give love to and raise them, not a man. I will fight societies rules untill my last breath, that I'm very proud of. CD'ing is the only one thing that I haven't gone out public with, but I will defend that also now as much as everything else.

I'll be leaving this forum in a few days and requesting my account be deleted at that time, I'll explain that in a thread before I do.

No cd'er is to blame for who they are and how they were born, the best thing a cd'er can do for themselves is accept who they are inside and make the best of it within their circumstances. Not all right now can come out without severe consequences for them or their loved ones, that needs to also be understood.
I joined here 6 months ago and met the most decent people ever in my life, and they are not only cd'ers but their spouses as well. This non acceptance within society will go on for some time unfortunatly.

I truly applaude those of you here that are braving a path for the future cd'ers and making change, and I hope what your doing is seen and appreciated by the others that aren't doing so or can't.

As for myself, I'm stopping my cd'ing, at least the clothing aspect, but I'll always remain who I am inside and be proud of that, I won't ever feel ashamed for how I was born. This decision is not because on society, society knows where they can shove it, but its because of the severe damages it has caused my loved ones and I'm putting them first in my life. This has been one of the hardest decisions to ever make for me.
I still may assist in fighting for cd'ers rights etc... , but it will be in male clothing. I'll explain in a final thread in a day or two why I'm doing this, and I truley will miss you all:hugs:

[JoAnne Wheeler]

We have been taught from childhood that it is wrong to want to dress and

act like a girl. We therefore have to live in secrecy, guilt and shame because

we are told that we are doing something wrong. I applaud those who are

able to express themselves and their femininity and do not care what others

think, BUT not everyone can do that - those of us with spouses (unlike you)

have to consider their feelings - if I had no financial concerns and could live

alone away from my current family and friends, then maybe I could come

out and live like I really want to - BUT, I do not have that luxury.

JoAnne Wheeler

[Sheila]

We have been taught from childhood that it is wrong to want to dress and act like a girl. We therefore have to live in secrecy, guilt and shame because we are told that we are doing something wrong. I applaud those who are able to express themselves and their femininity and do not care what others think, BUT not everyone can do that - those of us with spouses (unlike you)have to consider their feelings - if I had no financial concerns and could live alone away from my current family and friends, then maybe I could come out and live like I really want to - BUT, I do not have that luxury. JoAnne Wheeler

JoAnne firstly I am the SO of A CDER not a CDER................ And do you not think that there are CDERS & TS's who have spouses who have family, friends and financial considerations to take into account and go out there and do it anyway.

When it comes down to it, I did not have to share Debs's status with my kids, my family or my friends, but we chose to to enable our lives to be played as openly as possible. Debs mum, sister and 2 oldest kids know and support her ...... her daughter has had several night in watching Videos & eating pizzas with her ....... How the heck do you think people become accepting of alternate lifestyles? ...... it is by education, and how do you educate people if everybody is hiding in their damned closets ................ like I already said you educate one person and they educate another and they educate another .............. then soon you have a lot of educated people.

Whinging, whining and complaining in a closed community does nothing whatsoever to advance the cause, society is not at fault if you do not get out there and educate and show them they are wrong in their views

[Nicki B]

The hate groups will spread lies

Surely the only reason they feel the need to fight us so hard is they see a growing 'threat'? :devil:

[kellycan27]

Kellycan 27 wrote:
What planet do you live on? There are still lots of people out there that think homosexuality is an insult to their god, and would like nothing better than to rid 'his world' of the sinners. I think you've spent a little too much time in the little corner of the world where us gender bending folks exist. The real world isn't nearly as tolerant as you might think. As someone else wrote in another thread, sure, 98% of the population might not be bothered with us at all, but that 2% means that there are still 2 million crazy people out there that want us gone in any way possible. That's a lot of people chasing us down an alley with pitchforks, torches and clubs.

and

O.K., so you live where 'what happens in vegas, stays in vegas. Or maybe you don't follow the news. But there are plenty of people who hate us and would like nothing better than to hit us over the head multiple times with a heavy object, and rejoice when they're done.
Or, maybe you can easily pass (at least your avatar seems to indicate you can) and not wind up like a walking beacon of 'how not to dress as a girl if you are a man'.
Whatever. It's not all in our minds.
Yes, we are part of society, but we aren't a big enough part to set the rules of conduct.

Society as a whole may not be entirely to blame, but much of it is.

I live on planet earth, and out and about on it. i am not hiding in a closet somewhere letting an "occassional" news story or heresay determine how i am going to live my life. You talk as if attacks on cd'ers and TG'ed people are running pampant. Do I watch the news? Yes I watch All of the news. Bad things,done by bad people happen everyday to ALL walks of life. rape,murder,robbery..you name it. Are people afraid to venture out and live their lives? The streets would be pretty empty if that were the case. And even if your 2% of crazies was correct... What would the chances of you personally falling victim? a few billion to one? I do live in Las Vegas, but my job requires that I travel.. New york,Boston,Chicago,Miami just to name a few. No one has ever even expressed the desire to bash my head in much less made an attempt to. I will give you this much.. I have had people laugh, and point, and stare, but that is by no means reason for me to run and hide.
I guess that you didn't get the sarcasim in my comment regarding gays.Yes, there are those who hate them,my point being that even so.. they are more accepted than ever before. Why? because they let themselves be known.They got right out there up close and personal. There are always going to be those who cannot or will not accept one group or idea. Crossdressers and TS people are not as special as you might think. we are just another minority group trying to get by in this world. To hear some talk we are the most hated and persecuted bunch on the planet. Some may think that because it happpens to be them... get over yourself! Now take that other 98% of so called society that you spoke of. Let's just say that of that 98%.....70 percent were of the opinion that they had a problem with crossdressers. How many do you suppose would, other than just voice their opinion, actually take steps to do something about it? Not too many I think, because when it comes right down to it... they probably couldn't care less, having their own problems and lives to lead. I don't believe that I have spent nearly as much time in this... gender bender thing as maybe you have spent running around crying.. the sky is falling!

[battybattybats]

Long post but one everyone should read!!!!

Alright folks. It's about time to bring some facts into the violence-risks discussion.

Because an individuals subjective experiences is useless for gauging risks because they are more likely to end up with runs of chance or to belong to groups with more or less risk.

Lets start with the GLBT adult stats from my own country. http://www.homelessnessinfo.net.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=745:coming-forward-the-under-reporting-of-heterosexist-violence-and-same-sex-partner-abuse-in-victoria&catid=245:domestic-family-violence&Itemid=173


The survey findings demonstrate that the actuality and threat of heterosexist violence are a part of GLBT Victorians’ day-to-day lives.
Nearly one in seven GLBT respondents report living in fear of heterosexist violence.
Nearly 85 per cent of GLBT respondents have been subject to heterosexist violence or harassment in their lifetimes.
Seven in ten GLBT respondents have been subject to heterosexist violence while alone in the past two years.
Eight in ten GLBT respondents have experienced heterosexist violence as part of a same sex couple or group in the past two years.
One in four GLBT respondents have been subject to physical violence or the threat of physical violence over the last two years.
In eighty-five per cent of cases, violence and harassment were preceded or accompanied by heterosexist language.
Approximately one in twenty GLBT respondents have been subject to sexual assault over the last two years.


Now generally The T in GLBT gets the higher proprtion of stuff.
But the subject is more complex so don't draw conclusions yet.

Next we have TG kids at school in the USA. http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDi...0?diaryId=9964

Link straight to the PDF of the study here: http://www.glsen.org/binary-data/GLS...001/1375-1.pdf

Transgender youth face extremely high levels of victimization in school, even more so than their non-transgender lesbian, gay and bisexual peers. But they are also more likely to speak out about LGBT issues in the classroom, according to Harsh Realities: The Experiences of Transgender Youth in Our Nation's Schools, the first comprehensive study on transgender students, released today by the Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network.
Nearly nine out of 10 transgender students experienced verbal harassment at school in the past year because of their sexual orientation and gender expression, more than half experienced physical harassment because of their sexual orientation and gender expression and more than a quarter experienced physical assault because of their sexual orientation and gender expression. These levels of victimization were higher than those faced by the non-transgender lesbian, gay and bisexual students who participated in the 2007 National School Climate Survey, GLSEN's biennial survey of LGBT students.




Biased language:

• 90% of transgender students heard derogatory remarks, such as "dyke" or "faggot," sometimes, often or frequently in school in the past year.
• 90% of transgender students heard negative remarks about someone's gender expression sometimes, often or frequently in school in the past year.
• Less than a fifth of transgender students said that school staff intervened most of the time or always when hearing homophobic remarks (16%) or negative remarks about someone's gender expression (11%).
• School staff also contributed to the harassment. A third of transgender students heard school staff make homophobic remarks (32%), sexist remarks (39%) and negative comments about someone's gender expression (39%) sometimes, often or frequently in the past year.
School Safety and Experiences of Harassment and Assault


• Two-thirds of transgender students felt unsafe in school because of their sexual orientation (69%) and how they expressed their gender (65%).
• Almost all transgender students had been verbally harassed (e.g., called names or threatened) in the past year at school because of their sexual orientation (89%) and gender expression (87%).
• More than half of all transgender students had been physically harassed (e.g., pushed or shoved) in school in the past year because of their sexual orientation (55%) and gender expression (53%).
• More than a quarter of transgender students had been physically assaulted (e.g., punched, kicked or injured with a weapon) in school in the past year because of their sexual orientation (28%) and gender expression (26%).
• Most transgender students (54%) who were victimized in school did not report the events to school authorities. Among those who did report incidents to school personnel, few students (33%) believed that staff addressed the situation effectively.
Impact of Victimization on Educational Outcomes


• Almost half of all transgender students reported skipping a class at least once in the past month (47%) and missing at least one day of school in the past month (46%) because they felt unsafe or uncomfortable.
• Transgender students experiencing high levels of harassment were more likely than other transgender students to miss school for safety reasons (verbal harassment based on sexual orientation: 64% vs. 25%, gender expression: 56% vs. 32%, gender: 68% vs. 38%).
• Transgender students who experienced high levels of harassment had significantly lower GPAs than those who experienced lower levels of harassment (verbal harassment based on sexual orientation: 2.2. vs. 3.0, gender expression: 2.3 vs. 2.8, gender: 2.2 vs. 2.7).


Ah but Here's the kicker.

INTERSECTIONS
You see when you belong to more than one discriminated group the odds of and degree of discrimination are not added together but multiplied!

Resulting in this:
From: http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2009/01/...ranswomen.html

(remember she is a computer engineer who has worked on military and aerospace projects so don't dismiss her maths too casually!)


Just how many Black American Transwomen ARE there?

About half what there should be. They get murdered in hate crimes too often.
In their report, the Task Force had pronounced the prevalence of GID to be 1:11,900 (MtF) and 1:30,400 (FtM), using numbers that were based on counts of sex reassignments at a Dutch gender clinic during the 1980's

That's the official view of the American Psychological Association in its Report of the Task Force on Gender Identity and Gender Variance. We'll call it 1 in 10,000 though to make sure we over- rather than under-estimate.

So how many Blacks are there in America?
40.2 million
As of July 1, 2006, the estimated population of black residents in the United States, including those of more than one race. They made up 13.4% of the total U.S. population. This figure represents an increase of half a million residents from one year earlier.
That's from the last US Census. About half would be born looking male - call it 20 million. So one could reasonably expect the number of Black American TS women to be about 2,000. Roughly. Maybe a little less. Assuming the usual US birth rate of 10%, that means 200 are born every year. About. Probably a few more. (Births - deaths) is about 500,000 a year for the US Black population at large, so you'd expect an increase of about 50 a year. Roughly. About.

Black Transwomen are being killed in hate crimes at a rate of 30 a year. They comprise the majority of murders of Transpeople. Deaths from all other causes, assuming the normal life expectancy of about 75, would be 1/75 of 2,000 - call it just under 30. Roughly. It's not that simple, you have to look at how many were born when, but it would be less rather than more, so I'll go with that figure.

Something is terribly, terribly wrong here. The rate of lynching of Black American Transwomen is at least comparable to, and probably exceeds, the expected death rate from all other causes put together. Even if my figures are out by a factor of 3, it's still the leading single cause of death for them.

I'd appreciate it if my rough figures could be checked and shown to be wildly wrong. Because they suggest that Black Transwomen in the USA have a greater than 1 in 7 chance of being killed in a hatecrime. And the numbers, instead of increasing by 50 a year, are only increasing by 20 because so very many are killed for being who they are.

Now I agree with Prof Lynn Conway that the APA's figures are distinctly dodgy, and an under-estimate. So I don't think things are quite that bad in reality. Yet that's what the official figures show. So why is not something being done about it?

So what does this tell us?

It tells us that those who are saying the world is a death-trap of violence and those who are saying that it's peachy and a few rude words is all there is to fear are both right!

That your income, social class, geography especially of where you go dressed but also local laws and job protection if your outed but more importantly than anything else the colour of your skin determines your risks of violence!

Facts. Now we have to consider why thats so and what we are gonna do about it!

So then. If your White, middle class+ and live in a state/county/city where you can't be fired if someone outs you for CDing in your own free time away from work then your risks are very low especially if your careful where you go!

For racial minorities especially African Americans, the poor, those who live in areas without such protections and the like then every catagory one of those catagories massively magnifies the risks.

So please folks, cut the 'it's all peachy, everyone come out' nonsense and also cut the 'they all hate us, go out and your gonna die' nonsense too! Both are right, both are wrong.

Yes we need as many folk to come out as possible. But some are more able to than others and some will have greater effect than others so lets consider that.

If your in the safest groups, go on out already! And get active and make an impact, cause you have more power and more protection and are safer than the rest!

If you are in a strong mixture where being out will have a strong impact on the negatively impacted catagories then while being out may include more risks it will also have much more impact! For example despite long cultural history and heritage amongst most African Americans and Australian Aboriginals being TG is considered a 'white thing' because much of the cultural traditions amongst these groups have been stamped out or silenced. Wealthy, powerful, well connected CDs amongst those groups would risk much by coming out but could help their community dramatically if they can make that work, can educate their communities.

Ah but while many of the murder victims are CDs and TSs of colour not all the perpetrators of their murders are! So the problem is that someone who is both racist and transphobic will be more likely to attack someone belonging to both catagories.

That puts an extra moral and ethical obligation on the more powerful more safe white middleclass+ CDs to oppose racism and transphobia! even the closeted folk, even the working class and poor whites have a responibility to vocally oppose racism, transphobia and homophobia in their own communities families friends and all associates! Because if we all don't then we all get stained with the blood, we all get tarnished with the culpability, we all have made a choice that results in the consequence of the mass slaughter of Black Transwomen!

[Sheila]

Alright folks. It's about time to bring some [B]facts into the violence-risks discussion.

NO it is not Batty ................. this thread is not about violence issues against CDing or any other minority

MY ORIGINAL POST IS THIS


Only society decided that what we are is wrong, we had no choice about it, we were born as we are!!

The above quote from Debs is taken fom this thread Do we need to be forgiven? (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104505)
I repeat, once more, WE, ALL OF US, ARE PART OF THE SOCIETY WE CHOOSE TO BLAME FOR OUR WOE .......... and until we/you are strong enough to go forth and be who you are, you have noone else to blame for societies view .................. and before you shoot me there are CDERRS who do go forth on a daily basis dressed as they choose and good on them I applaude they strength, they interact with society as who they are, sure it is not alwauys easy for them, but then it is not easy for a lot of people who do what is required for them to lead the lives that they want to lead.

can we now put this thread back on course and away from a lecture on the

violence-risks discussion.& and the racial minorites with CDing issues

and finally it is sad but people are murdered all the time not just TG folks

and once more I will repeat if you (being tg's ... not for you to take this personally) actually go out and are seen, more and more it will become the accepted norm ....................... we can write to every damned newspaper in the world on a daily basis, but unless we our out interacting with Joe Public nothing will change ...... the vast majority of people are visual, they need to see, touch, feel and even smell things to make their mind up (now has vision of every TGer out there being sniffed :heehee:), the majority of peeps are out their living and many of them are too damn busy with their own lives to give a damn what folks they don't know are up to or doing

Kellycan :yrtw: you are leading from the front girl and for me your words carry far more weight than any damned prof or dry musty study, becuase you are living the facts ...:hugs:

I live on planet earth, and out and about on it. i am not hiding in a closet somewhere letting an "occassional" news story or heresay determine how i am going to live my life. You talk as if attacks on cd'ers and TG'ed people are running pampant. Do I watch the news? Yes I watch All of the news. Bad things,done by bad people happen everyday to ALL walks of life. rape,murder,robbery..you name it. Are people afraid to venture out and live their lives? The streets would be pretty empty if that were the case. And even if your 2% of crazies was correct... What would the chances of you personally falling victim? a few billion to one? I do live in Las Vegas, but my job requires that I travel.. New york,Boston,Chicago,Miami just to name a few. No one has ever even expressed the desire to bash my head in much less made an attempt to. I will give you this much.. I have had people laugh, and point, and stare, but that is by no means reason for me to run and hide.
I guess that you didn't get the sarcasim in my comment regarding gays.Yes, there are those who hate them,my point being that even so.. they are more accepted than ever before. Why? because they let themselves be known.They got right out there up close and personal. There are always going to be those who cannot or will not accept one group or idea. Crossdressers and TS people are not as special as you might think. we are just another minority group trying to get by in this world. To hear some talk we are the most hated and persecuted bunch on the planet. Some may think that because it happpens to be them... get over yourself! Now take that other 98% of so called society that you spoke of. Let's just say that of that 98%.....70 percent were of the opinion that they had a problem with crossdressers. How many do you suppose would, other than just voice their opinion, actually take steps to do something about it? Not too many I think, because when it comes right down to it... they probably couldn't care less, having their own problems and lives to lead. I don't believe that I have spent nearly as much time in this... gender bender thing as maybe you have spent running around crying.. the sky is falling!
:go:

:gh: to all those out their living their lives, interacting daily, educating daily by example, your voices are the ones I will hear first every time becuase you are living the life you want and having the courage to do so .... to you all I am proud to be associated with you

[battybattybats]

NO it is not Batty ................. this thread is not about violence issues against CDing or any other minority

You can't seperate whether society is to blame or not from the very factors that lead to our concerns. If some of us are afraid of violence and some of us blame society for that violence and some in the context of whether society is to blame or not are arguing whether that risk of violence exists then the facts of that violence are very much needed. Particularly to put to bed the argument about violence.


and finally it is sad but people are murdered all the time not just TG folks

Can you name a group of people who are so dissproportionately murdered, whose individual risk of being murdered is so great that it is the most common cause of death for that group? Not heart disease, not cancer, not multiple organ failure, not emphacema, not stroke... but murder?

Sorry but thats just sticking your head in the sand while African American Transwomen are being slaughtered in veritable genocide! It's like saying that despite the systematic extermination of thousands upon thousands of Jews and Gypsies there were some prisoners of war shot while trying to escape that we should consider the Holocaust unimportant!

The FACTS show that some of us are far less at risk than we imagine and others far more! And as Racism, Classism, Sexism as well as Homophobia and Transphobia are all part of that and those views are held within society and it's many subsets then we must deal with that and oppose the problem at it's source.


and once more I will repeat if you (being tg's ... not for you to take this personally) actually go out and are seen, more and more it will become the accepted norm ....................... we can write to every damned newspaper in the world on a daily basis, but unless we our out interacting with Joe Public nothing will change

I guess you missunderstood a key point. More people can be reached via the net and media than by personal exposure by just one person. And the peer aspects of society is substantially connected to the many media. And being involved on blogs and forums change things as I know because my involvement via letters to politicians and involvement with Australias Human Rights Comission via emails and fora has changed reccomendations for changes of laws!

I have personal experience that actual changes can be made from behind a keyboard. That those who remain closeted can still contribute to change! And being physically disabled I can only get outside so much too. So my words have had more effect and the possibility of far more future effects than my once a week shopping and my once a month trips to the cinema!


...... the vast majority of people are visual, they need to see, touch, feel and even smell things to make their mind up (now has vision of every TGer out there being sniffed :heehee:), the majority of peeps are out their living and many of them are too damn busy with their own lives to give a damn what folks they don't know are up to or doing

Strange then that with one letter I informed a politician who holds much power in Australian politics about TG issues. That with one letter I have had an effect on someone who makes profound decisions that effect lives.

Words have power. Yes, meeting and getting to know people face to face is more directly powerful but it is limited in the amount of people you can reach in a day. Both are really important and yes we should get more people out, but for those who can't or don't they can still contribute. And plenty of people who are out can still reach even more people by making their voices heard via media! TV, Radio, Net, Newspapers all influence peoples knowledge, understanding, views, perceptions and preconceptions!



To hear some talk we are the most hated and persecuted bunch on the planet. Some may think that because it happpens to be them... get over yourself! Kellycan :yrtw: you are leading from the front girl and for me your words carry far more weight than any damned prof or dry musty study, becuase you are living the facts ...:hugs:

I repeat: Can you name a group of people who are so dissproportionately murdered, whose individual risk of being murdered is so great that it is the most common cause of death for that group? Not heart disease, not cancer, not multiple organ failure, not emphacema, not stroke... but murder?

Because African American Transwomen by the official estimates of their population are! I think that does
make them the most persecuted people on the planet!

And if the stats are a touble for you look up the pictures of the people from the Transgender Day Of Rememberance lists (mostly Black and Hispanic!) and look at their faces! Faces like Latiesha's http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/10257/man-charged-with-hate-crime-in-killing-of-latiesha-green who was shot.

Drop the 'dry musty study' as those stats are peoples blood. Like Angia Zapata beaten to death with a Fire Extinguisher! http://www.bilerico.com/2008/08/AngieZapata.jpg She was hit in the head with a fire extinguisher.. but when she moaned and wasn't dead he went back and hit her some more untill she was!

Oh and that Prof? That's someone who does go out every ay interacting with people every day! and the one she quotes Lynn Conway? Not only is she also out daily but the computer your using is built with technology she invented! http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/


:gh: to all those out their living their lives, interacting daily, educating daily by example, your voices are the ones I will hear first every time becuase you are living the life you want and having the courage to do so .... to you all I am proud to be associated with you

And if they are Black or Brown skinned and American and poor then many will DIE! And many of those who could be on here to tell you how it is can't Cause they are DEAD! That's my point!

How much does it take to open your eyes to TRUTH?

If your white and out you are probably going to just cop a little flack depending on where you live, your income etc.

So if we face the real facts most of us on this forum would realise it's safer to go out than we realise! And that we owe those who suffer the great and serious danger our help!

I notice no-one has had the guts to answer the WHERE DID THE CLOSET COME FROM question!

Thats because people in society changed society to be anti-TG!

And if it's going to change back, and here we come close to some agreement, we are going to have to be the ones to do it!

But pretending that non-white transwomen are not being slaughtered and just getting our most courageous to dress plainly and go to the mall and smile and be friendly to the shop assistant at the lingerie store is not remotely enough! We do need to do FAR more than just that!

[The Gas Man Cometh]

And all that important stuff could have been done by anyone no matter how deeply closeted! So I'm doing this on three fronts, my small rural local community by clearly breaking strict binary gender rules (which if went fully femme and i passed would do nothing!) so that on a fair few occassions people have perceived me as female even in mostly male clothes, and online where my words can educate far more people than I could ever meet in one day of dressed shopping and also on federal laws and human rights where my small efforts can positively effect the lives of thousands of CDs and TSs!

Yes being out in person helps susbtantially and more profoundly influences the people you talk to who get to know you. But engaging in online discussion reaches more people and the closeted can still do that! And being involved in writing letters to local representatives etc is something anyone can do too!

No-one capable of being on this forum has any excuse not to do at least some of those!

Even kids are doing what we can in highschool. When I went to school, you know that we would protest against their making us dress plainly [Yes even when we were obiding by the uniform codes] and I always wore custom made long pants as opposed to the skirt simply because I didn't like their skirts and they couldn't say anything about it because of them being the correct colour. But as you know, I also flashed the rainbow flag on my boot laces.
Anyway, I must say, I feel safer in Australia knowing you're here too.


Laugh at me, hang me, jail me,beat me, make it a crime. this is my life, and this was the way I am supposed to be. If I can't live MY life being who I truly am.. I might as well be dead,because what would be the point? it's taken me 10+ years, pain and sorrow and suffering to get to a point where I am comfortable with myself and my direction in life. Nobody is going to take that from me..noboby!
That's my story and I am sticking to it.

It's that fire in your belly that we need more of. I'm right beside you on this one. No one's going to take my life from me.

[Sheila]

Batty I am sorry buut i am tired of feeling as if you are lecturing us all as if we are children ifyooyu feel this strongly then please start your own thread about the violence shown to CDERS as a group or individuals and stop clogging this thread up with your waffle and statistics ................. WE, thats WE are members of the society your are accusing ..... PLEASE take your discussion to a thread of your own ............... I did not start this thread for this reason but for the one stated :Angry3:

[battybattybats]

Batty I am sorry buut i am tired of feeling as if you are lecturing us all as if we are children ifyooyu feel this strongly then please start your own thread about the violence shown to CDERS as a group or individuals and stop clogging this thread up with your waffle and statistics ................. WE, thats WE are members of the society your are accusing ..... PLEASE take your discussion to a thread of your own ............... I did not start this thread for this reason but for the one stated :Angry3:

The subject of violence was already a part of the discussion before i used stats to display the truth being argued about. (see posts by kellycan27 and sometimes_miss) and fear of violence (physical emotional psychologucal and social) is a big part of the subject of why many aren't out which many blame society for. Unavoidable parts of the discussion!

Your avoiding reality. Facts. Offensively so with your callous and insensitive dissmissal of the high rate of murder many TG people face because of being both Trans and non-white! And your also avoiding the purely on-topic points I've raised even by your own super-narrow definition of on-topic.

1. We are the products of society and past generations are responsible for society as we experience it during formative years so we can only be responisble for societies future not the state it was in and is right now.

2. Throughout history around the world TG has been accepted and lauded yet now in all but a few small countries almost everyone is in the closet. Where else did the closet come from?

[Sheila]

The subject of violence was already a part of the discussion before i used stats to display the truth being argued about. (see posts by kellycan27 and sometimes_miss) and fear of violence (physical emotional psychologucal and social) is a big part of the subject of why many aren't out which many blame society for. Unavoidable parts of the discussion!

Your avoiding reality. Facts. Offensively so with your callous and insensitive dissmissal of the high rate of murder many TG people face because of being both Trans and non-white! And your also avoiding the purely on-topic points I've raised even by your own super-narrow definition of on-topic.

1. We are the products of society and past generations are responsible for society as we experience it during formative years so we can only be responisble for societies future not the state it was in and is right now.

2. Throughout history around the world TG has been accepted and lauded yet now in all but a few small countries almost everyone is in the closet. Where else did the closet come from?

I am not avoiding facing facts Batty, but i have asked you to start your own thread regarding the facts and figures ...... Good God man I am part of this community and intend to remain part of it and will continue to fights for the right off all of you every damn chance I get, but I object to you bombarding every darned thread with stats facts and figures everytime someone decides they want to debate somrthing ...................... you have several threads running in the lounge concerning TG issues .............. many of which have had quite a few views and no replies ................ that alone should tell you something ................. Batty I have asked you nicely to please back out of this thread with your stats, please respect my wishes, i don't want this thread closed because it becomes a slanging match between the two of us

[battybattybats]

I am not avoiding facing facts Batty, but i have asked you to start your own thread regarding the facts and figures ......

Sigh. People were making two opposing claims, that there was lots of risk and none. Both of which were correct and false. I showed how and why with facts and that should have been the end of that facet of the thread ending the debate about the risk aspect and yet you keep harping on about it.

Thats shows that you have an issue about it. Which appears to be that acknowledging that there is some small risk for many of us and a huge amount for a few as well as acknowledging that social peer pressure involving often substantial school bullying pushing conformity does occur hurts both your stated opinion as well as what appears to be your means to an otherwise good end.

But I think that lying propaganda and victim-blaming is not an appropriate way to try and get people to come out. We agree on the end but not the means. I'd rather truth to lies. We both want people to come out. We both agree that the community needs to take responsibility for changing the current situation. But treating the CDs as being at fault is not fair or acurate.


Good God man I am part of this community and intend to remain part of it and will continue to fights for the right off all of you every damn chance I get,

Good.


but I object to you bombarding every darned thread with stats facts and figures everytime someone decides they want to debate somrthing

You may want to read up on metaphysics and naturalistic methodology sometime so I don't fill up the thread by plugging the gaps in your understanding but suffice to say that objective evidence wins over ideology and subjective opinion every time. It trumps it. It's the winning hand. Every time. So if it's pertinent it'll get mentioned. Cause proof is proof no matter how much you don't like it.

In this discussion we had a variety of claims made on personal perceptions. Totally fallible and subjectively biased. The only possible way to resolve that is with objective evidence which is exactly what I provided. It shouldn't need a Mensa IQ to grok that.



you have several threads running in the lounge concerning TG issues

I take it you mean the Media section? Or have you mistaken me for someone else?


anay of which have had quite a few views and no replies ................ that alone should tell you something

It does. It tells me CDs are scared of facing the reality of their situation as well as the possibility of doing anything about it. Plenty will complain about society and discrimination but are scared to try and change it and are waiting for others to do so. Most just wish the problems and responsibilities they face would just vanish and they could just enjoy being pretty. Many consider activism a dirty word. Just like every other oppressed minority did until they finally acknowledged the reality of their oppression and also their power to change it and got off their backsides and got major changes.

And yet I get plenty of PMs of thanks for my posts and for the work I do.


Batty I have asked you nicely to please back out of this thread with your stats,

All pertinant to the point at the time got posted already a while back. But you have kept banging on about it. Why?

So long as facts are pertinent they will be posted. With links and references to show they are verifiable. When not pertinent they won't be. If the truth is inconvenient for you I suggest changing your theory rather than 'damning the data' that goes against it.

You cannot shut down points of view that are different to yours. Nor demand that evidence be removed or left out to make it easier for you to make claims contrary to evidence! That is like saying that mentioning Newton and Einstein and links to their formula should be kept out of a discussion on Gravity because it makes it difficult to argue that the Invisible Pink Unicorn does it and nothing esle could possibly explain it but the IPU hypothesis when there's all that pesky evidence in the way.


please respect my wishes,

You started the thread but you don't own it. You don't have Carte Blanche over it. All my posts in this discussion have been cogent, reasoned related to the topic and links and quotes involve evidential data. That's a high standard of discourse and utterly apt.


i don't want this thread closed because it becomes a slanging match between the two of us

Neither do I. But I do not take kindly to offensive remarks about myself nor unjustified ones about people like Lynn Conway and Zoe Brain who have done much for the TG community worldwide as well as non-TG people with their contributions to scientific and technological progress which has saved lives. Nor to attempts to control conversation that is on-topic and attempts to silence contrary views and data!

Now if you would genuinely actually like to return to your own topic I'd like to see you actually answer these points which I'll restate in reworded form.

1. Does not the existence of substantial childhood bullying of TG children and the strict enforcement of masculinity over any gender non-conformity many have experienced constitute socialy imposed gender rules enforced via violence ostracism and peer presure during childhood resulting in most CDs being indoctrinated into and forced into hiding conciously and unconciously at an early age? If not, why not?

2. How can a teenage CD possibly be responsible for the society they grew up in when they were 4? Responsible for their share of it now sure, but then?

3. Where did the closet come from when every continent on Earth at some time (many only a couple centuries ago) had long traditions of CD acceptance (in the case of Australia Sistergirls were accepted in Aboriginal culture for up to about 50,000 years but in the last 200 or so that changed so now almost all are in the closet) unless it was by changes in society enforced by ostracism and violence and laws?

So if you do not want to bicker then thats fine by me. You've made a claim and I have 3 points which seem to poke large holes in that claim and I'm curious if you have ways to plug them. And sorry but if there is vidence to back up any claims I make i will have the integrity to cite it so I suggest you may want to find some of your own to back up your point of view.

[Kate Lynn]

It's easier to blame things than it is to understand with an open mind and a open heart.
We are who we are because God made us this way for a reason,so stop looking for someone or some thing to blame.

[Shelly Preston]

This thread is being closed

I have had enough of this

I think the arguing has gone on long enough