Step 1 to change societies views on CDs/TSs

[battybattybats]

Lets make this super-easy.

Don't worry about coming out today. Don't worry about the closet at all. Nor ideology or any of that.

Just go to this link and watch it http://www.angiezapata.com/pages/about-angie.php and then send the link to every human you know and encourage them to pass it on.

Easy. You don't need to be out. Just send the link. You don't need to risk anything but not being a bigot publicly which you have no excuse to be anyway especially as a closeted CD/TS. So send on the link.

Sure there's a minor flaw (the official numbers used for a stat are questioned by noted researchers and don't count CDs) but thats not a big problem.

Everyone can pass this along. It will make us all more human in the eyes of those you send it to. It will counteract lies and negative stereotypes. It will increase acceptance and empathy. The more who see it the bigger the positive effect.

So if you want change, make it. It's easy! Step 1. Send everyone this link!

[Senban]

List of reasons not to do this.









And that's the end of the list :heehee:

Also, if you have a Facebook account, become a fan like I did a second ago. The link to do so is right there on the page that Battybattybats linked to. And becoming a fan of a good cause is something people do on Facebook all the time so you won't out yourself by becoming a fan.

Actually doing this WILL out you. You'll be outed as a good human being :)

[Shelly Preston]

Batty I have found a fundamental problem

If I send someone the link the first question from some of them would be

Why should you care ( sad I know but a fact ) :sad:

The others would be more reserved but still wondering why I sent it

It may not out me but it might come very close

I guess I will have to educate the public in other ways

[KateC]

This is good but scary in the sense it could have been one of us...

I feel really sad for her death, it moves me alot.

But I'm curious, what happened, so those are pics of her? She looks way passable than many of us and even some GG...

Said that she met someone in a networking site like facebook etc, so I guess to meet up? I'm kinda scared to meet people now lol that isn't an organized meet... Then she got killed when they met up?

[Mirani]

Thanks for the link.

Very moving. x

[Senban]

Shelly you're not a cat but do you donate to animal charities?

You're (I assume) not a war veteran but do you wear a poppy?

I don't have breast cancer or even know anyone who has had it but I became a fan of a breast cancer charity on Facebook after a friend of mine raised my awareness of the issue.

A friend of mine asked me to sign a petition he was organising this morning. The particular issue has never had any bearing on my own life but I listened to his arguments and decided it was valid and worthy of a little basic support from myself.

Hell, I could keep making the point over and over. Stop making excuses. Support something because it's the right thing to do. And if someone asks why you care about this particular issue, tell them you saw it on a news story, looked into it and felt that you'd like to raise awareness of a tragic and preventable death.

[battybattybats]

Batty I have found a fundamental problem

It's a fundamental problem all right, but not with the step!


If I send someone the link the first question from some of them would be

Why should you care ( sad I know but a fact ) :sad:

And there are easy answers like "What's wrong with you that you don't care? Are you a sicko that likes people being murdered?" or "Cause its a fellow human being! What's wrong with you!"


The others would be more reserved but still wondering why I sent it

And if you really need an excuse just say that someone else sent it to you and you were shocked and appalled.


It may not out me but it might come very close

You have to be a bigot (or masquerade as one) or maintain total silence on bigotry to preserve your closet? What you can't possibly change your previously spouted views or silence without them suddenly realising your a CD?

[Shelly Preston]

The right thing to do is educate people enough to stop all murders

This is a tragic event which should never have happened

You cant judge someones circumstances when you don't know them

Niether of you have any idea what I do or what steps I take to educate society. I am not the type to shout from the rooftops about what I can do change society

I have to cope with bigots every day ( but you don't consider that to be important )

Suggesting I might be a sicko is probably the reaction I would get form some of those people I know if I sent them this link

what would I achieve by outing myself
You accused me of preserving my closet

How many other here will do the same I will never condemn anyone for trying to preserve what they have

As for excuses some people are not that stupid to just take that comment at face value I wish they were

Accusing me will not help further the cause

[Senban]

"You must do what you feel is right, of course."
- Obi Wan Kenobi

Quote taken from the film rather nicely called "A New Hope".

But you know what I don't get? You happily said you couldn't do anything for the list of reasons you gave. Fair enough. How about a little "but I hope that those who can, do throw a little effort behind this great cause"?

:bmnd:

[Shelly Preston]

Your absolutely right Senban it is a worthy cause

That's why I say educate people to stop all murders not just those who happen to be part of our community

[Sheila]

"
:bmnd:

Shelly I do not know what this is about (being as Battybats is on my ignore list), but I will come in and defend you, in that knowing you as I do, I know that you do all you can to advance the TG cause

&
never mind not getting a donut, you can have a snowball instead :heehee::heehee:

[battybattybats]

The right thing to do is educate people enough to stop all murders

And if one group gets most of the murders? C'mon thats false-equality and nonsense. It was nonsense when used as a 'reason' not to oppose lynching, it was nonsense when denying the horror of the genocide against Aboriginees, Gypsies and Jews and it's still nonsense!

You put the most resources where the biggest problem is. Any other action is bad management.

Besides this vid is not about hate-crime even though it mentions it. It's about tolerance and putting an image of and face of humanity to people usually robbed of it.


This is a tragic event which should never have happened

Your darn right!


You cant judge someones circumstances when you don't know them

Then perhaps enlighten us enough to explain their uniqueness.


Niether of you have any idea what I do or what steps I take to educate society.

Sure. And I fail to see any relevance at all to spreading a simple message. Doing other stuff is good to. But then however you do that why can't you use that method for this?


I have to cope with bigots every day ( but you don't consider that to be important )

Of course it's important. They probably could do well to watch it too.


Suggesting I might be a sicko is probably the reaction I would get form some of those people I know if I sent them this link

what would I achieve by outing myself
You accused me of preserving my closet

How many other here will do the same I will never condemn anyone for trying to preserve what they have

There are limits, both moral and ethical, to what can be considered reasonable in protecting ones closetedness. You have a right to privacy yes. But for example it would never be justifiable to say murder someone in order to keep your secret.

At some point there will be a line to how far its ok to go to protect the closet.

And so what if you express a 'change of heart' and some people you know call you sicko on account of it? How will they make the massive leap from there to you being a CD? Or have they clues enough? Or are you so deeply inculcated in hate-groups that its just not possible to show the faintest sign without total ostracism? (in which case the only moral or ethical solution for you would be deep espionage and sabotage of said hate-groups).


As for excuses some people are not that stupid to just take that comment at face value I wish they were

Are you saying they suspect you already? Because were you so poor at lying or decieving or keeping things hidden or finding excuses then how are you still in the closet at all?


Accusing me will not help further the cause

Whose accusing you and of what? We're just saying it sounds like your making a mountain out of a molehill because of your own fears of being outed. And even if your circumstances are so super-special there still may be ways around it. Like finding a proxy to help spread the message to those you know!

[Senban]

Ah Shelly's not a bad moderator really, I was just using a joke smiley :)

Tell you what Sheila, here's Battybattybats' OP quoted for you :)


Lets make this super-easy.

Don't worry about coming out today. Don't worry about the closet at all. Nor ideology or any of that.

Just go to this link and watch it http://www.angiezapata.com/pages/about-angie.php and then send the link to every human you know and encourage them to pass it on.

Easy. You don't need to be out. Just send the link. You don't need to risk anything but not being a bigot publicly which you have no excuse to be anyway especially as a closeted CD/TS. So send on the link.

Sure there's a minor flaw (the official numbers used for a stat are questioned by noted researchers and don't count CDs) but thats not a big problem.

Everyone can pass this along. It will make us all more human in the eyes of those you send it to. It will counteract lies and negative stereotypes. It will increase acceptance and empathy. The more who see it the bigger the positive effect.

So if you want change, make it. It's easy! Step 1. Send everyone this link!

[Sheila]

Senban, this is a tragic death on that I will agree, however on further perusing the site I came across this

Judge to rule on confession in Angie Zapata killing (http://questioningtransphobia.wordpress.com/2009/03/07/judge-to-rule-on-confession-in-angie-zapata-killing/)


this throws new light on Batty's initial post so until I have furtheer studied it I will not comment

However the death, any death is a tradegy and I hope that Batty is not implying that it is any more horrendous than if it was a white middle class American, or a black middle class American, just because it involves a TG death

[Deedee Dupree]

Batty, Very nice suggestion... can do.

Despite the value in doing as you suggest, to be a part of the solution, or at least say your suggestion is a worthwhile idea for folks who can act on it, it is dissapointing to see such resistance. dd

[JoAnne Wheeler]

It was a very moving film - unfortunately, those where I live would not watch

or if they did, they would care less - we are treated sooooo bad by society -

no one really gives a damn about us (except us) Around this ultra

conservative area, the churches, the government, businesses and the over-

whelming majority (95-98%) of folks who live here have no use for us - we

are dispicable to them - they could care less - tolerance is a joke around here

JoAnne Wheeler

[Sheila]

It was a very moving film - unfortunately, those where I live would not watch

or if they did, they would care less - we are treated sooooo bad by society -

no one really gives a damn about us (except us) Around this ultra

conservative area, the churches, the government, businesses and the over-

whelming majority (95-98%) of folks who live here have no use for us - we

are dispicable to them - they could care less - tolerance is a joke around here

JoAnne Wheeler

If you are not out JW how can you verify this statement ........... many people whom one would suspect would not support the TG community, inevitabely do, unless you involve those around you in a civilised discussion on TG issues you will never know ....... how can you say that those around you would not watch the film .... give them the chance ..... they may just :straightface:

[Deedee Dupree]

Below, another example of the attitude I was refering to above...sorry Batty

I'll say it JoAnne, your attitude is a real liability in terms of moving things forward for the common good of our community.



It was a very moving film - unfortunately, those where I live would not watch

or if they did, they would care less - we are treated sooooo bad by society -

no one really gives a damn about us (except us) Around this ultra

conservative area, the churches, the government, businesses and the over-

whelming majority (95-98%) of folks who live here have no use for us - we

are dispicable to them - they could care less - tolerance is a joke around here

JoAnne Wheeler

[Shelly Preston]

Who said anything about false equality

One murder is one too many whatever the circumstances


No one here should have to explain their circumstances to anyone. I could, but I choose not too explain, but then I suppose you will feel this is unfair of me too

You choose to judge me again on morals and ethics without knowing why don't you just re write my life for me as you seem to want to do

You don't seem to understand that not everyone there own way of doing things related to the particular circumstances they find themselves in

Charging the barricades and yelling is not always the best method
Sometimes you can achieve more by in other ways

No one solution is the answer

So for those that can use the link yes I can understand what they hope to achieve

[Nicole Erin]

Anyone who kjnows me also knows I am TG. This is a good link, I don't know how non-tg would feel about this. I imagine they would get on me to watch over my safety though.

Funny how they want to throw out his confession, I just hope that the jurers have already heard about it.

True a lot of people are murdered all the time but things like this hit home. For those of us who are out or go out en femme, it could have been any one of us. If this was something like a drug deal gone bad or something it might be different but this guy was out looking to "get with" someone and this TS woman was very pretty but just cause she was not a GG he thought it would be OK to murder? Beat her to death? Not even like like a gunshot but brutal force.

[Shari]

Batty, you taking out your obvious anger and frustration on Shelly is most certainly misdirected. She and all others here support you and your quest to try and make things better for us all.

I would ask you who are you to judge her or anyone else here that feels passing this along will do them personal harm in some manner? It would for me, and for that reason, my response and actions will go no farther than this forum.

I would be willing to wager that many here would not even watch the full video or read the story below or really even care that much. Lip service is cheap.

Nothing we can do will bring her back.

Nothing.

If I really believed that passing this along would stop one more act of violence against us, I would and I would say damn the consequences.
But I don't believe it and I'll do nothing.

Truth be told, the haters will still hate and they're the ones this message must reach.
Sadly, it never will.

[Fab Karen]

If someone is doing other things to raise awareness & understanding, that's great. Batty's point was at least people can pass along news about a senseless act of violence against someone for being what they are. If someone would look at you strangely or ostracize you for having compassion, they aren't worth knowing.

[Nicole Erin]

I would be willing to wager that many here would not even watch the full video or read the story below or really even care that much. Lip service is cheap.

If I really believed that passing this along would stop one more act of violence against us, I would and I would say damn the consequences.
But I don't believe it and I'll do nothing.


I did read the story and watch the video. The video didn't give a lot of details, it was just the family's view on their sister.

And about doing nothing, yeah don't feel like you have to. Just sit back and let others do the work. :brolleyes:

[Ruth]

This thread is generating a lot more heat than it should. The trial is next week and maybe the full facts will come out then. Till then we are in danger of projecting our own agendas on to the situation.

[Hali]

It was a very moving film - unfortunately, those where I live would not watch

or if they did, they would care less - we are treated sooooo bad by society -

no one really gives a damn about us (except us) Around this ultra

conservative area, the churches, the government, businesses and the over-

whelming majority (95-98%) of folks who live here have no use for us - we

are dispicable to them - they could care less - tolerance is a joke around here

JoAnne Wheeler

JoAnne why are u saying all those negative things, actually i find them kind of amusing, CDs and transgendered in general are not hated that much trust me.

[Lora Olivia]

A moving video on a subject that is close to home for this community. Will I forward this? To some in my address book I will. To all? NO. In a perfect world this would not be a problem but we know the world is not perfect.

Batty I see your beration of Shelley as an attack. An attack on someone in our community who does what she can to support and further our cause. I see this as being without just cause. From my reading of your posts I do not believe you have a spouse or children. Those of us that do also have to think of them and the consequences to them. I guess that all I ask of you is the tolerance you preach for one of ours.:2c:

[Kate Lynn]

Batty we live in a society that lacks empathy,thats why crimes like this happen.

[Sharon]

First of all, no one should attack another member because of the choices they make regarding this or anything else and the circumstances under which they live. The more people that stand up and demand an end to bigotry and unequal rights and respect the better, but we need to also respect those who have genuine concerns about the effects of doing so.

Second -- Shelly is one of the most decent people I know and she has no need to have to defend herself like this.

Got it? :Angry3:

[Deborah Jane]

Batty......

I've just seen the way you attacked Shelly for her reasons for not wanting to send the video on

I wouldn't send it on either for exactly the same reasons!!

What you gonna do about it??

BTW Batty....How many people have you forwarded the link onto?
I mean people without any connection to the TG community

I'm just curious about the strength of your convictions

[Holly]

This is good information. However I think it is important to note that not all the soldiers in an army are on the front lines. Without the cooks providing nutrition, the supply unit keeping the fighters properly outfitted, intelligence with tactical information, and so on, the soldiers on the front lines would be hampered and possibly prevented from doing their job. Just because a soldier is not in YOUR unit, doesn't mean that they aren't furthering the cause. Food for thought before we start taking to task what others do or don't do.

[joann426]

i ll go along with you sharon i do agree with you 100%

[donnaking]

Batty......

I've just seen the way you attacked Shelly for her reasons for not wanting to send the video on

I wouldn't send it on either for exactly the same reasons!!

What you gonna do about it??

BTW Batty....How many people have you forwarded the link onto?
I mean people without any connection to the TG community

I'm just curious about the strength of your convictions

Good Point. I also would never send that link to anyone.

[kellycan27]

A very sad and compelling story. I did share it with a couple of co-workers today, and their reaction was the same as mine, but not because the victim was transgendered, but because she was a human being. I honestly believe that sharing any story as tragic as this one with most people would elicit the same response as it does in the TG community. Horror, and outrage, and I am sure that they would want justice served. hopefully the majority of people are compassionate enough to look past the person'e lifestyle. There are those who won't naturally, but i think that they are more the exception than the rule. Violence is violence no matter who it's perpetrated against. I also don't believe that the majority of the people who prosecute those type violent crimes would be less vigilant in investigating such crimes, because of lifestyle. Maybe not all, but again, the exception, rather than the rule.
As for passing your link on to others. I feel that i am in position to do so without fear of reprocussion and will do exactly that. And I will also request that they too pass it on, in my name if need be. " I have a Tg friend who sent this to me and requested that I send it along" If you feel that it is warranted, maybe you too could pass it along. and so on and so forth.
For those us us who feel that they just cannot... let's just leave it at that.

[battybattybats]

Disagreeing with someones point of view is not attacking them (otherwise I've been attacked heaps and heaps for much less).

Suggesting there must be a line on what it is ok to do to hide (my example was murder) does not equate to an attack on Shelly (unless Shelly has murdered people to maintain her secret!).

Shelly was not attacked, only her argument criticised.
And I apologise sincerely and publicly to you Shelly for any unintentional impression that my statements were anything more than a disagreement with your point of view.

As for concerns I might be a hypocrit this vid is already on my facebook page under my male name! It'll be on much more over the next few days as i update myspace, vampirefreaks, bebo and all the other social networking sites i'm on under my birth name and several net-names and it'll go to my whole address books on all my email accounts, my blog and forums i'm active on.

Now as for the case itself.... the vid is not about the case! Its using one persons real family to show the humanity of us all.

That said the throwing out of the confession was technically correct. Not because the confession was false but because the police made a major procedural error by continuing to record after the alleged murderer said:
Andrade replied, “Yeah, I’m done, though. He later said “I’m done. Yeah. I’m not talking right now.”

Thats the way the law works, evidence may only be brought up in court when obtained legally through proper procedures. But that doesn't matter because the vid is about transphobic hate, not finding this particular suspect guilty.

Yes one murder is too many. But isn't that ignoring proportions? I'd take a 1 in 12 chance of winning 1 Million dollars over a 1 in 18000 chance given the choice. Thats a far safer bet. And If I get the 1 in 12 chance and you get the 1 in 18000 chance I have an unfair advantage yes? Well thats whats being ignored by pretending everyone has an equal chance of being murdered, the odds are not even! That doesn't make any one persons life worth more (oh wait, I'm wrong on that! Sure it does, ignoring that some peoples lives are at greter risk is treating their lives as LESS valuable and worthwhile than those with far less risk!!!!!)

As for lack of empathy for us.. didn't Gainesville's vote on TG rights and before that the election of Stu Rassmussen the out CD mayor disprove that?

The idea that concerns me, and believe me it wasn't an attack on Shelly in particular, is that we want non-CDs to be accepting right?

But if in our 'secret Identities' as non-CDs when closeted we are not those kind of non-CD people then we're not just not helping ourselves but actually being part of the problem! Unless we can at least in our disguise as non-CDs be those kind of accepting people how can we expect real non-CD people to be accepting? And as non-CDs can be accepting then shouldn't we be at least like them?

Wouldn't that be not just us not-helping but actually be a part of the problem? Contributing to the hate?

[Senban]

As the strength of conviction issue was raised I thought I'd add that I've joined the Facebook group, added the Twitter group, emailed the link to a bunch of people, some of whom I've actually been having a good discussion with subsequently (I'll forward it to more people later and the only reason I didn't just spam everyone in my address books at once is because spam is spam regardless of source or intent). I haven't added it to my MySpace page yet but only because I haven't logged in for a few days. Oh and all these pages are in my birth name btw.

And just to make a point, many of my contacts are from the martial arts world, a very male-dominated environment that can be quite harsh at times to less-than-male issues and I still sent it out.

I understand, I do that not everyone is in a position to actually do similar things and find ways to do what they can when they can. But look at how many people have jumped in and said "brilliant, I'm going to do what I can to help" compared to the number of people honking about why they can't.

Now okay, let's approach this from a different perspective. The link that Batty originally posted was from the kind of website that the imaginary person in the street wouldn't come across in daily life. In that sense I can see why some people may be concerned about forwarding it to people. So can we find some links to the news story being covered in mainstream media that people would be prepared to forward and they could claim to have simply come across the story whilst reading the morning headlines? That way you can preserve a layer of your camouflage if you prefer. You don't have to make an issue whilst raising awareness in non-TG environments, right?

[GypsyKaren]

I don't forward emails and I never look at ones forwarded to me, in fact I find them to be annoying to get and I immediately delete them no matter who sent it. I fight for change by putting myself out in the world everyday and standing up for myself, so just because someone isn't a mouse clicker means nothing.

Karen :g1:

[battybattybats]

Autumn Sandeens post on the vid at PHB http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/10336/light-a-candle-for-angie

Hopefully I'll get a with-a-candle-pic for my profile tomorrow if I'm not too exhausted.

[Kate Lynn]

I honestly don't believe societies views on those who are different can be changed unless empathy can be reinstilled in it.
I guess society will never grasp this.

[Shelly Preston]

I apologise sincerely and publicly to you Shelly for any unintentional impression that my statements were anything more than a disagreement with your point of view.


Thank You for the apology

[battybattybats]

I honestly don't believe societies views on those who are different can be changed unless empathy can be reinstilled in it.
I guess society will never grasp this.

Your feellings are understandable. After all clearly some hate us so much that they spread lies against us publicly to deny us equality and out African American Transwomen in particular so much that they often suffer far higher violence than most and perhaps all other groups of American people.

However. How can this understandable feelling that society will never be empathic towards us be reconciled with Gainseville voting to protect us even with the lies being thrown around by the haters or New Hampshire so swiftly trying a second time to pass such laws passing the house by one vote after failing before? And when 45 years ago people were arrested for CDing and yet now in much of the western world they are not?

Doesn't this suggest that peoples views can change? That the efforts of those small few who for decades have been trying to change them have been working? And that if more did more then it would work faster?

Doesn't that mean that societies empathy is growing and views are right now changing?