Are we really selfish?

[AKAMichelle]

My wife and I are separated and during our discussions to get back together, this topic has come up multiple times. As a result it has caused me to think about this whole topic.

1) Is it being selfish for us to be ourselves even if it hurts someone else?
2) Is our going out dressed a compulsion?
3) Is it selfish to want to express the female side?
4) Is it selfish to want no body or facial hair?
5) How can it be selfish when this started at age 5 when I was just a kid?

I personally don't think so, but her arguments many times leaves me feeling guilty for being a crossdresser. I have always felt that I was destined for sometime special. That I had a special purpose, and crossdressing seems sometimes like a cross that I must bear. It almost seems like it stands between me and the me that I am to become. See I own my own company and for this to come out could mean a lot of lost business, but at the same time I think why should my wearing women's clothes interfere with the job that I do. Am I turning my back on my destiny to crossdress?

One of the problems that has plagued me for a long time is the fact that she wants to me to grow a beard again. You know what that means. No more going out in public. I think it is a ploy to get me to quit crossdressing. Just like no more shaving my legs or arms. I keep getting mad because why would you want to be with someone that doesn't know and accept you for you? I just don't know what to do about this. I don't want to hurt my family, but I still want to be me. So how do you resolve the conflict? How do you reconcile the consequences of crossdressing with the feeling inside? Does standing up for yourself and being true to yourself = selfish?

[Karren H]

I don't think so either!!

[Tamara Croft]

I personally think it becomes selfish when you're so wrapped up in pink fog, you've forgotten what the real world is...

1) Is it being selfish for us to be ourselves even if it hurts someone else?

Yes, if you're only thinking about yourself, then you shouldn't be in a relationship if all you're going to do is hurt them. Often CD'ing causes so many problems, because you get the green light and you think it's full steam ahead... pink fog...

2) Is our going out dressed a compulsion?

No, everyone goes out, just because you're wearing female attire, doesn't make a difference.

3) Is it selfish to want to express the female side?

No, why shouldn't you? However, refer to question 1, are you doing it and hurting your SO?

4) Is it selfish to want no body or facial hair?

No, women shave/wax their hair, why is it any different for a CD? besides, it's your body, your SO doesn't own it.

5) How can it be selfish when this started at age 5 when I was just a kid?

It isn't, you can't choose how life is going to turn out.

[kellycan27]

has she always had a problem with your being a crossdresser? Did she know from the start of your relationship? Did she accept or at least tolerate it at some point? ... You've mentioned your side...how about hers?

[AKAMichelle]

has she always had a problem with your being a crossdresser? Did she know from the start of your relationship? Did she accept or at least tolerate it at some point? ... You've mentioned your side...how about hers?

I just told her in January 2008. It didn't go well. We were having troubles already in our marriage. I told her because I wanted to let her know everything that I was thinking and let the real me out. I wanted it somehow to pull us closer because she would see me for who I really was. Silly me! It worked the exact opposite. The other problems in our marriage just kept getting bigger and bigger. Now everything we do seems to be a problem. I love her and I have told her so. I just don't want to be like some men who go through middle age and go get a younger model.

I am TG. Somewhere in between TS and a crossdresser. I have been trying to figure out the balance in my life during our separation, but so far I haven't found it. I don't think that I am being selfish when I'm trying to find a happy middle gound and all I get as an option is the closet.

[kathtx]

My wife and I are separated and during our discussions to get back together, this topic has come up multiple times. As a result it has caused me to think about this whole topic.

1) Is it being selfish for us to be ourselves even if it hurts someone else?
2) Is our going out dressed a compulsion?
3) Is it selfish to want to express the female side?
4) Is it selfish to want no body or facial hair?
5) How can it be selfish when this started at age 5 when I was just a kid?


Is it selfish for your wife to want you to grow a beard even though you'd rather shave? Is it selfish for your wife to want you to suppress your female side even if it hurts you? Why must you bear all the burden in this?

You and your wife are at an impasse over conflicting ideas of who you are. The blame for reaching such an impasse, and the responsibility for getting past it, is on both of your shoulders, not yours alone. The only selfishness would be a refusal (on either part) to consider compromise.

Best of luck,

Kath

[Sheila]

Yes as cders you can be samned selfish, especially when you are in pink fog mode, you know kids, partners and extended family are all forgotten in your need to express the female inside of you, & when for what ever reason you can't if you are a closeted CDER then you can become unbearably moody.

I am gonna slightly disagree with Tamara on the body hair thing (yeah I know Tamara it is there body & can do what they like with it,) but if your SO did not know your fem side exixted, you did not shave your body hair prior to telling her/her discovering, then yes I think you can be selfish in your urgent need to shave your body hair right here and now ................ you would think so as well if you are still closted to no one other then your SO and were planning to dress every Fri night say and she started inviting the girls round for nibbles and drinks every Fri ........... would mean you couldn't dress, but there again if you are dressed it means you don't open the door if somebody calls unepectedly, means she has to alter her lifestyle to suit yours when you are dressing.

I don't think it is neccasarily a compulsion , many CDERs are quite happy dressing at home, but many also want to go out in mainstream dressed, only you can tell if yours is not just a desire to experiance the full fem experiance in mainstream, but instaed a compulsion ( different things) it may selfish if you to want to go out and totally disregard your SO's views & worries

Can we be selfish in attempting to be ourselves, I think we all can hun, not just cders, when we have partners, while it should not limit our dreams, (in fact the best partnerships encourages them, we all need to think how following them will impact on those closest to us at the time. I had a dream as a child to be a nurse, was lucky enough to get my training in and pass all my exams with flying colours, but following my dream was halted just as I ended my traing, by my family needing me, then I got married, I partly filled it & have no major regrets about not fullfilling it all ( I was an awesome nurse believe it or not, damned good at it), my family needed me at the time & at the end of the day they come first:)

You know even someone special will get tired real quick in a relationship if it is all about their partners, needs wants and desires, and I am not just saying that over CDing, it includes anybody who allows their wants/needs to continually come before their partner & I include us GG's in that, we can be as guilty :o

[battybattybats]

1) Is it being selfish for us to be ourselves even if it hurts someone else?

No.

If a husband feels hurt because their wife has gained weight or dresses more casually etc and becomes less attractive to him visually most people condemn the husband for being selfish. If the son of a farmer or miner or carpenter wants to go to college to become a doctor or architect and that hurts the father we often condemn the fathers feellings as selfish. Selfish feellings of hurt are very real. People grow up being taught to have certain expectations and dreams for and of other people which must be inherantly selfish. We should be sympathetic to the feellings of all those people cause they genuinely suffer, while also recognising that those real feellings are unjust, unfair and it is these feellings of hurt that are in the wrong and must be chanhed not what the hurt is in reaction to.

Being Gay or Bi also hurts parents, siblings and children too... moreso in the past than now, but it wasn't and is not selfish. The pain comes from injustice and unfair expectations of another in all those cases.

2) Is our going out dressed a compulsion?

Only as much as anyone hiding something important about themselves can feel compelled to be open and honest about it eventually.. only so much as the caged can feel compelled to want to feel free?

3) Is it selfish to want to express the female side?

No. To be selfish it must take away from the rights and property and fair share of another. The idea that a partner owns some share of the other is barbaric and contrary to all womens rights achievements, and works both ways.


4) Is it selfish to want no body or facial hair?

Your body, your choice. From hair to sex to reproduction. The west is currently condemning the new law in Afghanistan that a wife must have regular sex with her husband whether she wants to or not.. this is the same thing but just on a lesser issue the way stealling a thousand dollers instead of a million is still stealing.


5) How can it be selfish when this started at age 5 when I was just a kid?

It can't be. Your body, your right.

It is selfish of her to try and prevent your crossdressing. What is done in shared time with shared resources and shared space is up for equal negotiaition and either may withdraw consent for their participation in it.


Does standing up for yourself and being true to yourself = selfish?

No. Your body, your possessions, your right.

[trannie T]

Is it selfish to go to crossdresser's events to the extent of severely limiting your time with your family?
Is it selfish to spend so much money on crossdressing that other important bills go unpaid.
Is it selfish not to let your wife wear your new ear rings?
YES
But the questions posed by Michelle do not describe selfish behavior.

[Lisa Golightly]

Ah well, if you told her after marriage then you have to expect this... Least I think so. You can't reveal yourself to be different and expect everything to be ok... and the natural thing is to view the person as selfish. When I revealed I was TS my family were more concerned about the neighbours than me... and there was this why can't you just be the boy you always were? attitude... Because I've never been a boy I tried to explain... but they viewed my actions as selfish and stupid... lol... Hmmmmm kick the girl when she's down.

For them I'll always be their boy, and for your wife you'll always be her husband. The girl is an intruder... an unwanted intrusion... It's the big problem of keeping things to yourself... They never really know you, and that thing called trust kind of crumbles to dust... takes a long time to build a new wall out of dust... believe me.

Lisa x

[Gabrielle Hermosa]

I do not feel selfish in any way shape or form. The desire to simply be me is not a selfish desire. I think we all (cd or non-cd) need to be who we are. Only cd's are given a hard time for trying to.

Having said that, I do have some restrictions put on my cding by my wife. She's very accepting and even encouraging at times, but there are some rules I must adhere to and it is very limiting. To me that is selfish on her part, but then again, it was my big mistake to not disclose this to her before we were married. Like any other cd who got married before coming out, I face the "false advertising" thing. The man my wife married was the man-front I had to put up to fit into society. It was never the man I truly am. And so now, I must give her that man to an extent in which it limits my cding and limits how often I can really be my self.

I guess I feel that she's being selfish and she feels I'm being selfish. It's something I constantly work on with her, but it's hard to come to a mutually agreed upon resolution. Oh well. One day at a time, right? :)

[Sheila]

.

but then again, it was my big mistake to not disclose this to her before we were married. Like any other cd who got married before coming out, I face the "false advertising" thing. The man my wife married was the man-front I had to put up to fit into society.

Hun it's not just the disclosure before maairiage thing Debs I knew as Debs before I met male Debs, he still presents as male 95% of the time, He likes being Male, he enjoys that, but he also enjoys being Debs, he like both and I love em both, sometimes I ask for Debs to come out to play, sometimes I want Male Debs, sometimes he wants Debs and others he wants to be male Debs, unless you are TS or presenting as fem 24/7 & either were from the get go, or after discussions with your SO it has been agreed, then your SO has the right to expect her male partner to show up on a fairly reg basis & not just when you are having to dress as male for work, or to do your male pursuits and need to be dressed as male for them.
I have said before and will say again, if Debs ever decides to go 24/7 or for SRS, I will be by her side every step of they way, until then, as she presents in two diferent modes, and we are a couple, my views/wants/desires/needs for the gender presentation I desire are as equally valid as hers ....... my :2c:

[Nicki B]

Selfish.. Self-focussed.. Wrapped up in ourselves and unaware of others.. As a community, IME those traits describe pretty much all of us, to some extent.

It seems to stem from growing up being a square peg in a round hole?


But, it behoves us to be aware of it and try and temper our behaviour to take account of other's needs, too?

[Sandra]

1) Is it being selfish for us to be ourselves even if it hurts someone else?

Yes it is. A lot of cders go through the pink fog and only think about themselves, it's like something takes you over and no matter what your SO says, nothing changes until it subsides. It's a case of I want to do this and sod everyone else.
2) Is our going out dressed a compulsion?

I'd say no, not everyone wants to go out, a lot are happy just to dress in the home and have no desire to venture out.
3) Is it selfish to want to express the female side?

No

4) Is it selfish to want no body or facial hair?

It's your body and I'll probably upset some GGs here, but IMO having no body or facial hair is not a big issue, some cders want to do more drastic things.


5) How can it be selfish when this started at age 5 when I was just a kid?

How can it be selfish at this age, most, (not all) kids wouldn't really understand what the true feeling were.

[Donna Marie]

Oh Michelle, I can so relate to your situation. And no, I don't think it is selfish to be true to yourself. My wife and I are separated - have been for 9 years. In 2001 we were also working on getting back together. I had only found my femme side after we separated the first time in late 1998. We tried living together for a while in 2000, but it was a disaster. So in 2001 I decided I needed to tell her about ME. It went surprisingly well, I thought. She was obviously surprised, but she smiled and asked a lot of questions. We parted that evening with hugs. After several days of silence I called and she said she did not want to talk about. Thus endeth that!

About a year later she told me she found some emails on my old computer. Oops - I thought I wiped it clean before I gave it to her. But it was good - she said she understood more about it. But still - we have remained separated but friends. We have traveled together and we have taken care of each other after we each had surgeries. But the separation is about more than CD by far. I think if that were all, we would be together. We are just too different and too independent in our ways to live together. So it works for us this way. Sorry if i got off the track - but I do not think it is a matter of selfishness, particularly since we are there for each other whenever it is needed.

[trisha11]

I do not think or feel that our crossdressing is selfish. As you pointed out you have been doing this since the age of 5. I started when I was young as well and I can not even remember why I started. All I know is that it is a part of me, it is who I am. My exwife knew this, your SO knows this, it is a part of who we are. Is the fact that she likes chinese food, or is a shop aholic her being selfish, no, it is who they are. I do not feel that my desire to crossdress, to have femme feelings, to desire to wear a wig and makeup makes me any different than when I am watching sports and scratching my balls in my boxer shorts. They are two sides of me, that make me special and unique. I have asked myself the same questions over and over again trying to figure out why my exwife could not accept this part of me while my current SO can. All I can say is that from my perspective it is my exwife and your SO that are being selfish. If they were not being selfish themselves then they would be more understanding.

[SouthernBelle.GG]

1) Is it being selfish for us to be ourselves even if it hurts someone else?
No it isn't selfish. What is selfish is not caring about ones SOs feelings and just doing whatever you want with no communication. (Not saying you do this.)


2) Is our going out dressed a compulsion?
I suppose it could be for some. I've never viewed it as such though.


3) Is it selfish to want to express the female side?
Not at all. But when you have an SO who had no idea of this female side for years, communication and understanding is key.


4) Is it selfish to want no body or facial hair?
No. But it can be quite shocking when your SO comes to bed completely shaved without a heads up. It did freak me out a bit. I'm working on it.


5) How can it be selfish when this started at age 5 when I was just a kid?
Well, if you just told your wife last year about your CDing and you're 49 now, she's got quite a few years to catch up to your understanding of it, right? Maybe all she can see right now is you wanting to take your(and her) life in a completely different direction than she ever could have imagined. I can see why she might be thinking it's selfish. Again, communication - talk, talk, talk. And talk some more.

[battybattybats]

1) Is it being selfish for us to be ourselves even if it hurts someone else?

Yes it is. A lot of cders go through the pink fog and only think about themselves, it's like something takes you over and no matter what your SO says, nothing changes until it subsides. It's a case of I want to do this and sod everyone else.

Ummm.... hold a sec on that one... does a CD choose to go into pink fog? Or is it that a mass of repressed thoughts and feellings and desires are overwhelming them?

If the former then sure that would be selfish. But i'm pretty sure it's the latter and then could not be selfish!

[JoAnne Wheeler]

How can it be selfish to be who we are

JoAnne Wheeler

[Sandra]

Ummm.... hold a sec on that one... does a CD choose to go into pink fog? Or is it that a mass of repressed thoughts and feellings and desires are overwhelming them?

If the former then sure that would be selfish. But i'm pretty sure it's the latter and then could not be selfish!



Hmmm ok maybe your right ;) people don't choose the pink fog, but they still push the boat whilst in the pink fog and seem to do nothing about it, so IMO they are still being selfish.

[MJ]

as i see it if you are doing something that upsets or hurts your partner then it is selfish .

but it is never easy if you did not tell her up front about your cding then she never had a choice so anything you try to do will hurt her and that is selfish

now if she knew going in to the relationship form the start but has a change of heart then i feel she would be selfish .

if you have an S.O then you have to think about her need too

[Kate Simmons]

I'd say if we have to ask this question, we are in the "pink fog".

[battybattybats]

Hmmm ok maybe your right ;) people don't choose the pink fog, but they still push the boat whilst in the pink fog and seem to do nothing about it, so IMO they are still being selfish.

Just like someone on a drug or under the influence of alcohol or suffering mental illmess I think the pink fog state interferes with and occludes proper judgement and reasoning and thus makes all blame unreasonable!

[AKAMichelle]

I personally think it becomes selfish when you're so wrapped up in pink fog, you've forgotten what the real world is...

1) Is it being selfish for us to be ourselves even if it hurts someone else?

Yes, if you're only thinking about yourself, then you shouldn't be in a relationship if all you're going to do is hurt them. Often CD'ing causes so many problems, because you get the green light and you think it's full steam ahead... pink fog...

That statement leaves a problem. Are TS selfish when they decide to transition even though they are married? I agree that people can be very selfish about crossdressing, but being a crossdressing and needing to crossdress doesn't appear to be selfish.

[Sheila]

That statement leaves a problem. Are TS selfish when they decide to transition even though they are married? I agree that people can be very selfish about crossdressing, but being a crossdressing and needing to crossdress doesn't appear to be selfish.

Sweetie there is a world of difference between being a CDER and being TS ....... I may be wrong and it is just my :2c:

[Lisa Golightly]

That statement leaves a problem. Are TS selfish when they decide to transition even though they are married?

Well that's why I didn't get married... Or have children... Just my personal approach to things...

[AKAMichelle]

Is it selfish for your wife to want you to grow a beard even though you'd rather shave? Is it selfish for your wife to want you to suppress your female side even if it hurts you? Why must you bear all the burden in this?

You and your wife are at an impasse over conflicting ideas of who you are. The blame for reaching such an impasse, and the responsibility for getting past it, is on both of your shoulders, not yours alone. The only selfishness would be a refusal (on either part) to consider compromise.

Best of luck,

Kath

Thanks for that insight. I hadn't thought about it that way.

[Angie G]

Being your self can go to far and become selfish. That is if it comes down to ME,ME,ME all the time.:hugs:
Angie

[vivianann]

Telling your SO about Cding before marriage is so important, because it is a major societal taboo to wrap ones mind around, it takes us years to finally be able to wrap our minds around Cding, even though we have known about our desire to be femme since early childhood. So when we spring this on a wife it is traumatic to her sensibilities, from what I have seen, most wives are unable to accept Cding. I told my ex about my desire to crossdress before we were married, and she seemed to be accepting even though she did not want to see me in a dress. Then after we got back from our honeymoon she handed me a list of things that I was forbidden to do or have, crossdressing was one of them, my antique car collection and hobby was another one, I was not allowed to have my own car to drive to and from work, she demanded that I ride a city bus to and from work. I was not allowed to visit my parents or siblings, her list of does and donts was quite extensive. As a result the marriage was a disaster, because I would not live by her rules, the only rule I did obey was I did not crossdress, but all the other rules I refused to obey. I was miserable, and I did become very depressed because I was suppressing my femme side. I finally told her I want a divorce I did not love her any more.
I am free to be who I am now and will never give that up. my antique car collection is much bigger, and I am crossdressed most of the time now. I hope to be married someday, and I am usually enfemme when out looking for GG's to date so there is no question about who I am, yeah it is much harder to find an SO, but I do go out with alot of GG's and have alot of fun.

[Lorileah]

OK I am tired of this selfish thing. It is human nature to b selfish. I am selfish and I know it. So what? "you can't please everyone so you got to please yourself."

Not to get into details but the SO's are just as selfish as we are. Hey I want any future SO to be crazy and kinky in bed. Will it happen? Only during the dating process (been through this many times...I know things change after marriage). She will probably cut her hair short ("you don't know what a pain it is to keep up."). She will probably wear grubby clothes around the house ("It's comfortable.") She will tell me she doesn't like my choice of music ("How can you listen to that racket?")

As my life stands right now, I won't have this problem for awhile. But will being on my own make me more selfish? Maybe.

Funny thing is when we as CD's use the same excuses as above we get labeled as selfish. I don't like body hair and I find it sexier and cleaner to remove it. I like wearing skirts and dresses they are comfortable to me. I like varying types of music, but maybe not hip hop or rap. My unique situation is I can try and avoid these pitfalls. Unfortunately most the people here are already in the snare. It would be best to compromise but in many cases here we capitulate and the SO's don't. Can you see us bargaining? I'll quit shaving if you grow your hair out like it was when we dated. Nope. I'll quit wearing skirts if you lose the ratty sweats. Nope.

Are we selfish? Yes. Is it a two way street? Absolutely. Are we going to win? Not unless we are willing to give up the companionship and co-dependence we enjoy by being "comfortably" married. This is one fairytale that won't end happily ever after.

[Marilynn]

If this were golfing or building model trains, you could argue about balancing time and interests between husband and wife. If the wife knew about the CDing before marriage, you could argue about how much is enough. What can't be argued is the Original Sin of not telling her before she commited her life to you. It's would be nice if everyone was open-minded about crossdressing, but that's not the issue. The time to find out whether she's open-minded or not is before the marriage, not after. If you're going to argue that it's not selfish to be yourself, then the wife has every right to say that "your self" is not the man she married, and the deal is off. There's an old saying that your right to punch your fist into the air ends at the beginning of my nose. It may not be selfish of a crossdresser to crossdress, but when another person is involved, they have rights too.

Personally, I wouldn't marry a woman who was a Communist, and I wouldn't marry a woman who was an Evangelical Christian. It's not selfish of them to go to party meetings or church services, but I just want no part of either.

Just my opinion - it's worth what you paid for it. :D

[AKAMichelle]

Sweetie there is a world of difference between being a CDER and being TS ....... I may be wrong and it is just my :2c:

True - it a big difference. Can either end of the spectrum change who we are inside? I just feel that crossdressing itself is not selfish. You can do very selfish things being a crossdresser when you completely ignore your SO.

[Sheila]

True - it a big difference. Can either end of the spectrum change who we are inside? I just feel that crossdressing itself is not selfish. You can do very selfish things being a crossdresser when you completely ignore your SO.

No I don't think CDing in it's self is selfish either, the things CDERs can do surrounding it can be extremely selfish, but there again I lived with a golfing CDER previously and trust me golfers can be selfish as well, or maybe it was just the man himself who was selfish :straightface:

Lori, yeah we can all be selfish, but at the end of the day if you are in a commited relationship you choose to be there & so you have got to put the needs/wants of your partner on at least on a level playing field to your own wants/needs.......... I have been extremely guilty in the past for putting my need/want to be the best I could be at work at the forefront of things .... granted it was to improve the life of my family in many ways, but never less I enjoyed/enjoy being the best I can be .................. but I have never ever taken to extremes something I want to do for me exclusively, to the point that my partner would seriously consider bailing on the relationship ... a world of difference and one we may not see eye to eye on :sad:

Given that many partners did not know in the beginning, I do think that it is selfish for CDERs to want change things at their pace, they want to enjoy their fem sould, but please god don't let your friends/family know ............... so begins the lie for many.................. is it selfish that you (many of you) want to enjoy the softer gentler side of being a woman, without the steel backbone that many SO's have, I think so

Now Debs is out to close family, my family and a few of my friends ......... all with her knowledge in on my side .......... Do I respect the fact that she has no desire to inform her friend and co-workers, of course I do, will it cause us some uncomfortable moments throughout our life tog, am sure it will do, is she being selfish in asking me to keep her fem side hidden .... I personaly don't think so, but some may .... will Debs's fem side mean there are things we may not attend because she may want/need to dress, perhaps and so long as there are not many of them then we will be just fine .......... while Debs continues to present as both genders I would expect both gender presentations to be given equalish time in our relationship for me & us. Is it selfish of me to want to spend time with male presenting Debs ..... that you will have to ask her, but I think not.

Ow and as for this
Not to get into details but the SO's are just as selfish as we are. Hey I want any future SO to be crazy and kinky in bed. Will it happen? Only during the dating process (been through this many times...I know things change after marriage). She will probably cut her hair short ("you don't know what a pain it is to keep up."). She will probably wear grubby clothes around the house ("It's comfortable.") She will tell me she doesn't like my choice of music ("How can you listen to that racket?")

ermmmm men don't all present as Mr clean and tidy after getting married hun .......... just ask a lot of wives ............ he who was Mr Athlete while courting & Mr cool dude, may soon become mr slob and couch potato athlete after marriage, he who once was up for all sorts of bedroom activities prior to marriage is also prone to lazyiness in the bedroom ............... us girls know, we don't just sit around talking about knitting patterns and kids when we get together you know;)

[Lorileah]

Mea culpa Sheila. True to the point, but what I was trying to say was we all don't present our true selves early on. Then we try and press upon each others our own quirks and eccentricities.

Then the "selfish" thing comes up. Yes men are just as selfish as women. Your statement is just an extension of the same point. Are CD's more selfish than the sloppy, hand down the pants, belching man in the recliner? Nope, pretty much the same. But it is nothing but a mirror in many cases to the SO who brings it up.

Women seem to use the "you have changed" argument on us when they feel threatened. The point is both sides are guilty of this. You know the old adage, Men marry hoping the women won't change and women marry thinking they can change the man. (ducking).

[Prissy Linda]

I don't show my wife very many threads on this board since she isn't all that interested in this site, The way she feels about it it that she has always known that I enjoy being feminine so as long as I don't out myself to our grown children or friends she is fine with me dressing.

Anyway, I asked her what she thought about this thread in particular. Her response was that if a CD informs his wife or SO of his desire to dress and is totally honest about to what the extent of his desires are then she knew going into the marriage what she could expect thus she could decide on whether she wants to be a part of it or not. Now if he springs it on her later then it's a whole new ball game.

She also said that women are just as selfish if not more than men (her words)
Women are experts at manipulating men (her words again), either by exposing a mans feminine side or the almighty guilt trip. As she was walking away she said something that made me raise my eyebrows, she said "maybe those guys should just be honest in the first place and grow a backbone". My wife doesn't pull any punches. Ok, I realize she doesn't have a full grasp on what CD's have to fear or their insecurities but it was interesting to hear her comments.

[Sheila]

You know the old adage, Men marry hoping the women won't change and women marry thinking they can change the man. (ducking).

lobs Lori a bunch of :hugs::hugs::hugs::D

[LA CINDY LOVE]

Being your self can go to far and become selfish. That is if it comes down to ME,ME,ME all the time.:hugs:
Angie
A single CD dose hot have to think about if they are being selfish, they can afford to be me me me, so when a single CD who has never been married tells a married CD that he should express his self and that his wife is being selfish for not understanding his needs is
BS.

Crossdressing is almost like having a affair it puts a very big strain on a marriage and that is because the wife dose not know about it.........until you get caught.

For a CD to get married and not tell his wife about his crossdressing is not only unfair it is very selfish, she has the right to know about this.

LA CINDY LOVE

[ReineD]

1) No, but it is good to compromise. If your wife was an avid (insert an activity that leaves you cold) and she was being herself by engaging in it every spare moment without considering you, you would like her to reach a compromise as well.

2), 3), 4), No.

5) It isn't.

[LisaM]

I have thought about this same question a lot since I let my spouse know 14 years ago that I was trans. I ended up walking away from both transitioning and dressing 10 years ago and sacrificed everything for my family. Back then I was asked how I could be so selfish.

Now 14 years later my family is mostly grown and on their own. My spouse does not work, lives a upper-income life of leisure and would still probably ask me how I could be so selfish if I wanted to dress again.

I think the better question is can there be a compromise? Because individuals left on their own will be selfish; both us as TG identified individuals and our spouses who prefer things to remain the same.

[Kaz]

I have thought about this same question a lot since I let my spouse know 14 years ago that I was trans. I ended up walking away from both transitioning and dressing 10 years ago and sacrificed everything for my family. Back then I was asked how I could be so selfish.

Now 14 years later my family is mostly grown and on their own. My spouse does not work, lives a upper-income life of leisure and would still probably ask me how I could be so selfish if I wanted to dress again.

I think the better question is can there be a compromise? Because individuals left on their own will be selfish; both us as TG identified individuals and our spouses who prefer things to remain the same.

Great thread! If you are in a relationship, why are are you in that relationship? Why is your partner in that relationship?

Some are very simple... it is about sex or companionship
Some get more complex... it is about setting up a home, having kids...
Some are more complex...

If I commit to a relationship that questions my right to self-expression then I need to understand what that means and how it will impact me. If I commit and then choose to ignore the commitments... I am being selfish.

Sadly, many relationships are based on the tacit assumption of commitments... are you being selfish if your wife married you when you had a beard and you now choose to shave it off? Are you being selfish if your wife married a guy with a full head of haior and now he is bald?

Is your wife being selfish because she wants you to be the guy you were 20 years ago?

We grow, we develop as people, we are not pre-programmed objects. We have the benefit of being able to choose our options and react/influence according to our abilities.

If I want to have bath and a body shave and pamper when the garden needs sorting, the roof needs fixing... am I being selfish? Yes.

Can I suspend my CDing for 6 months because it means so much to her... yes! If I don't am I being selfish? Damn right I am... Which is more important? Only you can choose.

If my SO is not prepared to accept my CDing and I continue to... am I being selfish?

Time to re-evaluate the relationship I think, or how important it is to you. Some things in my life are more important to me than my CDing... for those I would sacrifice this world and build another.

:love:

[kellycan27]

It wasn't fair of you to keep it a secret until after you were married. As we all know from all of the complaining that goes on in here,not everybody is comfortable or accepting of it. Fact of life. Why should she have to live a life that she is uncomfortable with? You basically blindsided her, and took away her right to choose. If crossdressing or tansitioning is something that you just can't live without... let her go, get on with with your life and let her get on with hers. You seem to want to life your life as you please and feel you should. Well maybe she feels the same way. Compromise? Why should she have to compromise? .... you didn't, but now that she doesn't want any part of it... you want her to compromise? ...Not being selfish? Keeping it a secret until after marriage, not being selfish? Taking away her right to choose, not being selfish? Yes, you have the right to live and do as you choose, as does she.

[AKAMichelle]

I made a terrible mistake when we got married. I like so many others thought that my crossdressing was gone forever only to find out the truth about crossdressing. Yes it stayed buried for 2 years until she caught me dressed. I loved her so much that I thought I could beat the crossdressing. Surprise! I was wrong again. So after hiding my crossdressing all that time I decided that the right thing to do was tell her the truth. So in January 2008 I did. That led to more problems. I had hoped that it would force a dialogue which could mend all of the things wrong in our marriage. It didn't mend anything. It only broke things more apart.

That's why we are separated at the moment. My crossdressing ended up being the straw that broke the back. It is definitely not the cause of death to our marriage, but it the one which gets the most attention right now. I am still trying to talk with her about how to proceed, but we haven't broken through the barrier between us yet. She keeps pointing to everything is my problem. She doesn't take any blame. It takes 2 to screw up a marriage and I just want to find some way to work through the problems. This being selfish is one that I don't understand and that's the reason for the post.

[Marilynn]

It takes 2 to screw up a marriage ...


I have no idea what happened in your marriage, but as a blanket statement that is obviously not true. It's the kind of psychobabble that counsellors tell couples so that they won't have to tell one or the other "it's all your fault," even though it is. Many marriages are broken up because one spouse drinks or gambles or cheats, and it has nothing to do with the other spouse. One person just decides to do something they know they shouldn't do, because they really don't care what effect their actions have on others.

[Tamara Croft]

It takes 2 to screw up a marriageDoes it? I don't think so. Who lied in the first place? Her? No? You did! If your issues in the marriage are because of your crossdressing, then that's your fault. If there are other issues caused by both of you, then that's both your faults. But to say it takes 2 is not always the case. Take Lorens (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104941) new thread about her breakup, she gave her SO everything and still it didn't work.. was that her fault also? Nope...

You can't make a blanket statement like that, it just isn't right.

[curse within]

Yes we are selfish it is in our nature. To have an urge the constantly nags you as you have no idea why and it never goes away as much and as often you wish it would . To continue to pursue this urge and hurt the un accepting loved one who doesn't , even more than yourself, understand why you do what you do. It makes them feel you only care about yourself and dressing up and you feel that they are being very insencitive towards your needs. You loved one feels you care more about your habit than you do them and finnally they get fed up . "Its me or you hobby" next time it's done! Yeah we all are selfish

[AKAMichelle]

I was speaking not about anything specific. In a marriage each person makes mistakes and does things which either help or hurt in the marriage. In general both parties in a marriage usually have to take some of the blame for the failed marriage. Regardless of the percentage of blame, I just think neither party is 100% blameless. There are always exceptions, but I think this is the general rule.

If crossdressing was completely out of the picture, my marriage would still be in trouble. Crossdressing only adds to the problems. I would like to find a way to deal with some of our issues and asking this question helped a little to understand her perspective.

[kellycan27]

Is it selfish for your wife to want you to grow a beard even though you'd rather shave? Is it selfish for your wife to want you to suppress your female side even if it hurts you? Why must you bear all the burden in this?

You and your wife are at an impasse over conflicting ideas of who you are. The blame for reaching such an impasse, and the responsibility for getting past it, is on both of your shoulders, not yours alone. The only selfishness would be a refusal (on either part) to consider compromise.

Best of luck,

Kath

Maybe because he brought it on himself,by keeping it a secret form his SO from the start. She wasn't given a choice as to how she felt about this issue,and now you expect her to compromise? I don't see how any logical person could put one iota of blame on the SO...
As for any other problems that thay are encountering in their marriage, who knows who is to blame. But in the case of his cd'ing...He owns the whole shootin match.

[ReineD]

You and your wife are at an impasse over conflicting ideas of who you are. The blame for reaching such an impasse, and the responsibility for getting past it, is on both of your shoulders, not yours alone. The only selfishness would be a refusal (on either part) to consider compromise.

In my view, Kath said it best.

This is a good thread, but it is so full of sweeping statements from different points of view, it is no wonder a meeting of the minds can't be reached. Is it his fault? Her fault? He shouldn't have lied. She should have been more open-minded. Is he selfish for wanting to be himself? Is she selfish for not wanting him to? What is her inch? What is his mile?

So where's the middle ground? There is a sliding scale of blame and responsibility just as there is of gender expression. At one extreme is a CDer who is in an extreme pink fog. He spends all their money on clothes, goes out every night dressed, spends all his time on the computer having cybersex with other Cders or he meets them in person, and he pays no attention to his very supportive wife's needs, while she had absolutely no idea he was a full fledged CDer until after they were married for 20 years. The other extreme is the CDer who suppresses all his own needs because his wife will leave him if he doesn't, and he is deeply depressed and near suicide.

Folks, there is a middle ground and none of us can know what it is or "whose fault" it is for anyone else unless we live with them.



... it stayed buried for 2 years until she caught me dressed. I loved her so much that I thought I could beat the crossdressing ... So after hiding my crossdressing all that time I decided that the right thing to do was tell her the truth ... I had hoped that it would force a dialogue which could mend all of the things wrong in our marriage ... It only broke things more apart.

She knew about it two years into the marriage and you both decided to not deal with the issue. She looked the other way while you felt more comfortable continuing to CD while thinking she didn't know. You were both in denial and it became a huge white elephant in the room. When this happens hidden tensions mount, resentments build, the connection between you is weakened and it becomes impossible to deal healthily with the other marital issues that normally crop up. The cumulative problems become so large that the relationship becomes severely damaged.

It doesn't have to be about the CDing. In my 30 year marriage, it was different issues altogether but with the same results. We did not begin to address our barriers until it was too late to repair the harm that had been done by not having addressed them earlier.

"Selfishness" is a nice tidy way to cast blame on the other while in reality, both partners have lost the ability to see the other's point of view and to compromise.


[On taking 2 to break up a marriage]: It's the kind of psychobabble that counsellors tell couples so that they won't have to tell one or the other "it's all your fault," even though it is. Many marriages are broken up because one spouse drinks or gambles or cheats, and it has nothing to do with the other spouse.

I agree with you, but only in extreme cases: physical, emotional or sexual abuse, or if one partner has an addiction or severe compulsion he or she cannot arrest, and that includes partners who have multiple affairs. But most marriages fail without having these conditions present. They fail because the partners do not have the skills required to maintain a healthy relationship: the ability to communicate and compromise.

(If one partner has a one-time affair it usually is an indication there are already problems in the marriage).



I never met a dame that didn't need to be slapped around a little bit-Bogie

Fortunately we've moved beyond this primitive way of looking at things.

[Sheila]

I never met a dame that didn't need to be slapped around a little bit-Bogie.
Jeez you are kidding right ?


Jeez, I'm glad I'm not married to tamara
After using that appalling quote you had better be thanking your lucky stars that you are married to neither Tamara not Myself :Angry3: I don't care that it is a quote or that you may have meant it as a damned joke it is appalling :Angry3::Angry3::Angry3:

[The Gas Man Cometh]

I'm an Infantilist. All you have to do to understand my situation is replace the word "female" with "baby."

Now that introduction is out of the way, my GF had been rejecting me dressing as a baby for sometime now. I thought I could overcome it, but alas I've resorted to pulling away from her and do my own thing. I too have a compulsion to dress in public, and just be me no matter who sees.

I will say this, and please don't anyone take it the wrong way, it IS being selfish. But let me explain this as well, being selfless is NOT a noble clause, and it is DAMAGING! Being selfish means to take care of one's self, put yourself first so that you may help others as well. Being selfish is the only way to survive. I don't mean go overboard being greedy or disregarding others, but it's wise to take small steps toward pushing others to be yourself.

Unfortunately I couldn't do it, and had to step back from my GF for now. But I've been a lot happier lately.

[Tamara Croft]

Jeez, I'm glad I'm not married to Tamara.....Listen Girls,
I never met a dame that didn't need to be slapped around a little bit-BogieThis might be a joke, but I don't find your tone funny at all. There are many women/men on here that have been abused, so I'll thank you NOT to use my name again or joke about being smacked around, you aren't funny and I'm not bloody laughing :Angry3: :Angry3:

[donnaking]

Ummm.... hold a sec on that one... does a CD choose to go into pink fog? Or is it that a mass of repressed thoughts and feellings and desires are overwhelming them?
A CD can certainly choose not to be sucked into the pink fog.

[battybattybats]

A CD can certainly choose not to be sucked into the pink fog.

How are you certain?

[donnaking]

How are you certain?

Do you control CDing or does CDing control you?

[AKAMichelle]

This thread has been my whole point about this matter. No matter where you are the fact that we are a crossdresser causes such strong emotions to appear. Very seldem are those emotions acceptance. Acceptance comes to a lucky few of us who made the mistake of not telling our SO from the very beginning. You reap what you sow. I made a mistake of thinking that my crossdressing was gone when we married. When she caught me, we buried it and ignored the problem. The problem seemed to disappear. Over the years from the time that I was found dressed in her dress no less to 2008, I went through many cycles of buying and purging. This was a very destructive cycle. I kept making another mistake over and over again thinking that I could beat crossdressing.

I built up resentment that I couldn't be me myself with my wife. Crossdressing was only one of many items that I had to bury and keep from my wife over that time period. I guess that is why in January 2008 that I told my wife. I was tired of keeping everything bottled up. I was very depressed and wanted to just check out. I knew none of my decisions were going to be easy, but I either wanted my wife to accept me and find ways to solve the other problems over time or get a divorce. In June last year we separated. For the first 6 months we fought regularly and I was glad she was living in another house. The last couple of months have been better, but they are leading now to a major showdown.

She has made it clear that she wants things back the way they were before we separated. She wants more of the don't ask - don't tell policy. She wants me to pack all of my clothes up and go back in the closet. I can't get her to see how destructive that is for me. You can't put crossdressing in a closet without having flare ups. If I don't crossdress then other issues can't be resolved either because of the issues of resentment is buried a little deeper. How does that lead to anything positive? We are planning to get therapy here soon. That will be the final showdown of my 25+ years of marriage. If we stay at the status quo, we are finished.

I wanted to make two more points to anyone else out there in a similar situation. Before she marries you tell her the whole story. We have been separated multiple times in our marriage. This isn't anything new to us, but this has been the longest one. Do not just go back in a marriage for the kids. That is what I did and the end result is possibly going to still be the same. The kids may never have known what was wrong, but they experienced all of the problems caused by my wife and I not resolving issues. All of that time I wasted a lot of time hiding me from the person that I love and caused resentment and problems to build to a point that there may not be a solution anymore. Don't hide yourself from your SO. She deserves to know you for who you really are. The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. We as crossdressers hide ourselves and lie about it to others and ourselves. We do this to protect ourselves from ridicule, loss of love, and many other reasons. Why is crossdressing so terrible that we deny our own existence to ourselves and others?

Don't make the mistakes that I have made. Hopefully someone will read this thread one day and avoid the pitfalls. So many of us have made already. When I was younger finding information about crossdressing was almost impossible. This forum makes the information much easier to find. So with all of the information try and not repeat the mistakes we made before you. Regardless of how we like what our accepting SO say, we are still lucky to have people like Tamara who accept us.

[The Gas Man Cometh]

Do you control CDing or does CDing control you?

It's not a matter of control, per se. Sometimes there are aspects of a person that you simply cannot repress. We may be asking ourselves WHY this is for years to come, but for now all we know what IS. We know how bad we feel to try and repress it, and we know how good we feel when we go with it.

It'd say it's more likely a matter of how you want to live. The only choice you can make is live happy or exist sadly.

[Ralph]

See I own my own company and for this to come out could mean a lot of lost business, but at the same time I think why should my wearing women's clothes interfere with the job that I do. Am I turning my back on my destiny to crossdress?... [snip for brevity]... I keep getting mad because why would you want to be with someone that doesn't know and accept you for you?

I'm seeing two related themes here. You're willing to stop crossdressing because it's important for your business, yet you say you are unwilling/can't stop crossdressing to keep your wife.

I'm not judging you; I'm only asking you to look into your heart and decide for yourself what's most important to you.

If you truly believe it is your "destiny" to crossdress, then your business shouldn't interfere with that destiny either. On the other hand, if you value your wife as much or more than you value your business, you shouldn't let your destiny interfere with either of those.

You (like most people) say that the compulsion came on you at an early age, too early for you to make a conscious decision that's what you wanted to be, right? I submit to you that this does not automatically make it your destiny, any more than being born missing a leg means it is your destiny never to walk. Now, before you jump all over me for comparing crossdressing to a birth defect, that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying, a condition we are born with, or develop spontaneously at an early age, isn't a condition we are required to keep because it is our destiny. So if crossdressing interferes with a successful business or a successful marriage, I say to hell with crossdressing.

Now excuse me while I slip into my favorite nightgown.

ralph

[docrobbysherry]

There r some deep and penetrating posts here. Regarding BOTH CDing and marriage. But I think you've ALL missed something!

HONESTY:
I submit that NO ONE is completely honest going into a marriage. Even those that TRY their hardest, may NOT be capable of doing so. Considering the circumstances, and because of both partner's feeling that may be involved!
Example: A CD may NOT tell his SO, because he HONESTLY believes he can quit!
How often did u with hold a truth and tell your SO a "white" lie? Because it was BETTER to NOT tell the absolute truth and hurt his/her feelings?
And there's even self deception to consider. U think you're telling the truth, but later find out u weren't.

But, marriages, ( ANY partnerships, in fact), altho NEVER exactly alike, and R often complicated and convaluted! I've been thru one marriage and divorce, and several business partnerships. They all ended!

I don't believe my differences with my "partners", r all that different from Michelle's, or ANYONE else's here! The details, maybe, but NOT both partner's feelings involved! What good does blaming either party do? If the partnership failed in the end, maybe it ran it's course, and was supposed to?

Understanding WHY your last partnership failed, may ONLY be helpful in your NEXT one! Otherwise, rehashing an old one is pointless, in my opinion!

CHANGE:
Everything, and everyone changes. Once u reach my advanced age, u realize how tru that is!
It means;
u, your partner(s), AND your PARTNERSHIP/MARRIAGE will change! It MAY change for the better, the worse, or remain the same. But, it WILL CHANGE! U can count on it!

AND, the TRUTHS at the begining of your partnership, MAY NOT be TRU later on! That includes CDing, and any and all other "problems" that arise during your relationship!
U can count on THAT,TOO!:brolleyes:

[crusadergirl]

No we are not shellfish but i guess thats just depends of what others think. I can be selfish sometimes but who isn't.

[Bev06 GG]

Selfish.. Self-focussed.. Wrapped up in ourselves and unaware of others.. As a community, IME those traits describe pretty much all of us, to some extent.

It seems to stem from growing up being a square peg in a round hole?


But, it behoves us to be aware of it and try and temper our behaviour to take account of other's needs, too?

Well said Nicki. However, me thinks that this is a two way road. Selfishness is a human condition and if a GG said to me that she had never been selfish regarding any issue not just her partners cross dressing I'd have to ask her if the Pink Fog had affected her too. I openly admit that there have been times when I have been selfish regarding my partners CDing, when I have wanted to control the situation, when I have not been willing to bend a little, when things have so gotten on my nerves that I want to throw all his shoes out of my ruddy wardrobe.
Like I say its human but I usually get over myself and look at things more rationally and take his needs into consideration as well as my own. Thank fully for me he does the same.
Take care
Bev

[Byanca]

What I find fascinating is that females have so little problem with CD themselves and usually only with males. I've even notice that many of them approve if some in their circle brakes the normal female style. I know that I have a huge problem in not having any pride, and feeling of superiority with my own sex. For me everything is mostly equal-like gender blind. But it isnt like this for most people. So I think the problem lies with me. As both females and males react the same regarding the superiority of the male, and the reaction-are you retarded liking female stuff. Where I come from most females dont like female clothes-it looks to me like everyone dresses male most of the time. I just dont get it. If it was hard work-and for purly practical causes. But it isnt-for most it is for apperance and looks-so yepps-I dont get it. Theire so ruff and uncomfortable, not even elegant.

[Shelly67]

Personally , I think its quite possible for some of us ( me included ) to certainly be selfish and almost self obsessive . Vanity comes to mind . However it takes reflection of everyday lifestyles , let alone crossdressing to sometimes really see just who we are .
Perhaps when we look back , ponder on our character we can only then truely assitain on which are our negative traits and positive personalities .
The most truthful part of this revelation is at times ( and I don't mean how we look ) it can be most awakening , and truely embaressing .
I suppose , it's a lesson to be learned to try not be forceful in you manner , gentle in communication , and at least open minded enough for feedback that may touch nerve on occassion . Tis an awakening part of all our lives .

Good thread

[AKAMichelle]

I'm seeing two related themes here. You're willing to stop crossdressing because it's important for your business, yet you say you are unwilling/can't stop crossdressing to keep your wife.

ralph

I didn't say that I would give up crossdressing for my business, but I would definitely be more cautious. One of my biggest fears is to run into one of my clients while dressed. That is a managable risk at the moment. When it doesn't then I will have to make that decision later.

I understand my wife's position on crossdressing and I would be able to accept some limitations, but not the closet.

One of the things that really puzzles me about this crossdressing thing is that it causes us to be different in some respects to other men. Things that we like to do. Things we understand because of our crossdressing.

Recently I went with my wife to see Bride Wars at the theatre. I was the only guy among about 15 women in the movie. Several of the women told my wife how lucky she was to have a husband come with her to the movie. I liked the movie because I am part female. Regardless how small the part it does cause a difference with me. I love Romantic Comedies and Bride Wars was a very enjoyable movie.

I just don't get it how women love us to go to events like this with them, but crossdressing is such a terrible thing. Us being TG is what causes us to like things like that in the first place. Why can't wives see the benefits derived from crossdressing. Why are we always the selfish ones for needing to crossdress?

[Thalia]

Did you separate because of your cding? Did your wife know about your cding prior to marriage? And, if she did, had you agreed upon some sort of compromise and now you're ramping up the cding? If you're acting in excess of what was originally agreed upon, then, yes, you are being selfish. Remember, if your partner is making a compromise in accepting some level of cding, then, if you exceed the agreed upon limits, you're being selfish. If she had no idea about the cding, and you sprung it on her after she became your wife, then absolutely, you're being selfish. No one has to accept our cross dressing. I believe we were born with this proclivity but that does not give us the right to demand acceptance. It is not the norm of society....that is why we meet on sites like this and gather in cross dresser social groups.

[Satrana]

The term selfishness is invariably used by those who want to control their partner because their partner is not doing what they want them to do.

Selfishness is both normal and natural, everyone is selfish even though some people try to deceive themselves that they are not.

Selfishness only becomes an issue when it becomes unbalanced, when you become obsessive about something to the exclusion of the needs and feelings of those around you. 99% of the time that does not have anything to do with crossdressing since most CDs spend most of their time en drab and fulfilling their male role duties and are still involved in the lives of their family and friends.

Hence when the "you are so selfish" insult is invoked, what it really indicates is that the SO is feeling hurt because their own dreams and aspirations are not being met by their partner. Which of course is selfish for the SO to think this way as well, but that is OK because it is natural to be selfish.

The selfish insult is an old tired, banal line. Time to get over the silliness of this idea and I agree with the earlier comment - it is time CDs grew a backbone and not fall for this notion that selfishness and CDing are somehow linked.

[Fab Karen]

Nothing quite says love like,"DO WHAT I TELL YOU."

[Kelli Michelle]

The term selfishness is invariably used by those who want to control their partner because their partner is not doing what they want them to do.

Selfishness is both normal and natural, everyone is selfish even though some people try to deceive themselves that they are not.

Selfishness only becomes an issue when it becomes unbalanced, when you become obsessive about something to the exclusion of the needs and feelings of those around you. 99% of the time that does not have anything to do with crossdressing since most CDs spend most of their time en drab and fulfilling their male role duties and are still involved in the lives of their family and friends.

Hence when the "you are so selfish" insult is invoked, what it really indicates is that the SO is feeling hurt because their own dreams and aspirations are not being met by their partner. Which of course is selfish for the SO to think this way as well, but that is OK because it is natural to be selfish.

The selfish insult is an old tired, banal line. Time to get over the silliness of this idea and I agree with the earlier comment - it is time CDs grew a backbone and not fall for this notion that selfishness and CDing are somehow linked.

:clap::clap::worship::worship::iagree::iagree:

[Pink_Lace]

is it selfish for a woman to be a woman
or a man to be a man. being who you are isn't selfish it's just being... well... yourself. And isn't that something society tries to tell you from birth. to be yourself, an individual... unless of course that individual conflicts with societies view of normal that is

just my opinion

[Magickman]

The experiences and feelings expressed here, suggest that marriage can be a very fragile and precarious state of existenece. Spouses find so many causes for misery.

I advocate against marriage, because it is an unnatural and miserable state, that brings much human suffering.

If people only had the courage to live independent, solitary lives, they would be much happier.

I have been single for 59 years, and 11 2/3 months.

[Miranda09]

Is it selfish for her to require you to behave and look they way she wants, according to her standards? Would she accept those terms if you imposed them on her????

[amanda gg]

As a wife who just discovered that her husband is a CD after 5 years of marriage I can say that parts of this can be selfish if others needs and feelings are not considered. I think that it is very important to communicate.

[battybattybats]

As a wife who just discovered that her husband is a CD after 5 years of marriage I can say that parts of this can be selfish if others needs and feelings are not considered. I think that it is very important to communicate.

And what about both the Internalised Transphobia of the CD and the Transphobia of the SO that effect both peoples needs and feellings? Doesn't that make things biased and unfair towards the CD from the very outset?

Isn't this exactly the same as how Women who wanted careers and education and to wear practical clothing were considered to be being selfish and not considering the needs and feellings of their husbands a few generations ago?

Cause other than a nonsense 'that was then and this is now' subjective lens I see no way those two are not exactly the same.

[curse within]

I see them the same...In our economy someone has to keep these femme markets a float seems a lot of women are turning t-shirt and jean kinda gals..

Seriously as dumb as that sounded imagine when women did have to fight for their rights to be treated as equals and to dress as they desired..

[Satrana]

I can say that parts of this can be selfish if others needs and feelings are not considered.

That depends on what the needs and feelings of the SO are. For example if the need of the SO is for a masculine man without any signs of femininity then that is an outdated and sexist ideal equivalent to men's idea of women 100 years ago.

There is so much transphobia and sexism about male social roles in Western society that it is almost inevitable that a SO will feel her feelings are not being taken into account precisely because the CD is undertaking a behavior that everyone is conditioned to believe to be weird and unnatural and linked to homosexuality.

Because of the pain a SO feels over dealing with such an unexpected and isolating taboo of CDing, it is natural for her to become overly sensitive to every feminine aspect, item and behavior the CD wishes to explore. Her instincts are to stop it, inhibit it, control it and protect against the erasure of the masculine man she wants and feels entitled to.

Few CDs spend any more time and money on dressing than can be compared to any other person who has a hobby or interest. But it is only the CD who gets the selfish label thrown at them because this is one behavior that other people want to control and make disappear.

[ReineD]

As a wife who just discovered that her husband is a CD after 5 years of marriage I can say that parts of this can be selfish if others needs and feelings are not considered.

Satrana, I agree with your point!

But as with anything else, there are degrees of self-centered behavior. If the CDing activities, such as frequently wanting to spend time alone dressing; hours and $$$ spent daily online shopping and chatting; insisting that the CDing come into the bedroom when the SO is not ready for this; generally giving the impression that unless the activity is connected to CDing then it is something to engage in reluctantly until the chance to reconnect with the CDing comes up later; all of these behaviors will make the SO feel as if she is playing second fiddle in the relationship.

I may be wrong, but I believe this is what Amanda was referring to when she said "if other needs and feelings are not considered".

I do understand a SO's initial bewilderment over having to reevaluate her role as a woman in the relationship, especially if she finds out about the CDing years later and she was raised in a less than liberal household. In such a situation, if the CDer does not give his wife a chance to catch up emotionally to his level of self-acceptance and if at the same time he goes off in a pink fog disregarding his wife's feelings, or he becomes upset at her bewilderment, then he could be viewed as being selfish, even though he is exercising his right for self-expression.

As with the TG spectrum, there is a wide gray area where partners do not meet (oftentimes in the first few years of coming out to the SO) and in my view if both the CDer and the SO take a stand and refuse to move towards somewhere in the middle, they are both being obstinate and self-centered.
:hugs:

[Satrana]

in my view if both the CDer and the SO take a stand and refuse to move towards somewhere in the middle, they are both being obstinate and self-centered.


I agree, in general the issue is usually not about selfishness per se but about being open minded and re-organizing your perspective about gender roles/sexuality etc and reviewing relationship dynamics. It is about being progressive, understanding and empathic. And if the couple have these skills and mindset then not only will it lead to a satisfactory inclusion of crossdressing into the relationship but it will also provide a solid platform to tackle other relationship issues.

At heart it is about how good a couple are together and whether they really have each other's interest at heart or whether they are just focused on getting what they want out of the relationship.

Yes there may be some CDs who are selfish persons but that would be apparent behavior even when in drab. But when CDs come out of the closet they tend to be over exuberant in exploring their femininity at the same time the SO is reeling from shock and confusion and wanting to cling onto traditional ideals of masculinity. It is an unfortunate timing of events which leads to the invocation of selfishness.

[Jamie001]

Satrana,

I think that the proper term is "JaneGirl or NancyBoy".


I agree, in general the issue is usually not about selfishness per se but about being open minded and re-organizing your perspective about gender roles/sexuality etc and reviewing relationship dynamics. It is about being progressive, understanding and empathic. And if the couple have these skills and mindset then not only will it lead to a satisfactory inclusion of crossdressing into the relationship but it will also provide a solid platform to tackle other relationship issues.

At heart it is about how good a couple are together and whether they really have each other's interest at heart or whether they are just focused on getting what they want out of the relationship.

Yes there may be some CDs who are selfish persons but that would be apparent behavior even when in drab. But when CDs come out of the closet they tend to be over exuberant in exploring their femininity at the same time the SO is reeling from shock and confusion and wanting to cling onto traditional ideals of masculinity. It is an unfortunate timing of events which leads to the invocation of selfishness.

[ReineD]

At heart it is about how good a couple are together and whether they really have each other's interest at heart or whether they are just focused on getting what they want out of the relationship..

Well said.



As with the TG spectrum, there is a wide gray area where partners do not meet (oftentimes in the first few years of coming out to the SO) and in my view if both the CDer and the SO take a stand and refuse to move towards somewhere in the middle, they are both being obstinate and self-centered.

I want to clarify this statement. If a SO has religious or moral objections due to her upbringing which prevent her from being involved directly with the CDing (in other words, if she can't bear to see her husband CDress), then she does her part in moving towards the middle if she freely supports her husband's right to CDress. He moves towards the middle by agreeing to CDress without his wife's participation, and they both meet dead center if they can happily agree on the frequency.

A different couple's dead center might be a SO going out several times per week with her husband en femme.

For yet another couple, their center may be both agreeing that he should live 24/7 but not transition.

All of the compromises above are reasonable. The point at which a CDer and his SO meet is different for each couple, and all points are valid as long as it is something with which each is comfortable.

[battybattybats]

I don't think we are genuinely as a community acknowledging pervasive Transphobia and it's consequences.

And the rules and rights that govern Womens Rights, Human Rights and Sexual Acts are the same ones which would apply in a relationship to things like CDing. (and everyone should strive to understand those more!)

So lets be clear about this.
Morally and Ethically and In Principle and (in the west) Legally it is true that:

* A CD has an absolute right to CD (Universal Human Right to Self Expression, reinforced by the Yogyakarta Principles)

* An SO can never ever ever have a right to a say over a partners body or self expression (this is an absolute, no exeptions ever possible. The Human Rights that protect Women from abuse by husbands, the very principles which the west has expressed outrage over the violation of in Afghanistan are clear, no partner justly overides any of their spouses human rights ever)

Also, the complication for many people it is true that for most:

* Overcoming Transphobia, internalised or otherwise, is very hard.

The latter is the issues couples must deal with. Not just in SOs but also in CDs and there are some wonderful GGs who are much more easilly able to accept but whose CD SOs difficulty or inability to overcome their internalised transphobia is the actual problem in the relationship!


If a SO has religious or moral objections due to her upbringing which prevent her from being involved directly with the CDing (in other words, if she can't bear to see her husband CDress), then she does her part in moving towards the middle if she freely supports her husband's right to CDress.

She has an absolute right to only participate in anything that she freely uncoercedly consents to just like the CD. She has no right to restrict or interfere with the CDs capacity however by for example controlling and minimising his private time in order to prevent or minimise the possibility of CDing.

Now that's irrespective of upbringing or faith. It remains Transphobia! But her right remains to not participate. Plenty of white people have Asian and Black ancestry. If the husband were adopted and discovers they have Asian or Black Ancestry and the wife was raised in a racist family community or religion it's still racist for her to choose not to meet his non-white biological family. It's her right to choose to do so and would be understandably difficult for her to confront her racism sufficiently for her to choose to meet them but it's still racist to choose not to.

No difference.


He moves towards the middle by agreeing to CDress without his wife's participation,

Nope. Both have an absolute requirement to respect the others rights. No excuses. Any not doing so is a clear wrong. But its extreme difficulty can't be ignored, just as the difficulty of racists and sexists and religious bigots is genuine for them to overcome their bias. An anti-semite whose daughter starts dating a Jew will similarly have the same kinds of genuine struggles.

But for both SO and CD there is no compromise in accepting and respecting the others rights, merely the obligation they have as humans.


and they both meet dead center if they can happily agree on the frequency.

Heck no!
This notion of moving towrds the centre is assuming each persons needs and desires are coming from an equal position. That's ignoring the pervasive Transphobia both have been raised in and absorbed.

Shared space and shared time must be negotiated, and from a position of equal rights and equal say. Private space and private time is absolutely the individuals total control as is their body and personal possessions.

Frequency in personal space is solely the choice of the CD. If they choose to reduce it or minimise it for the comfort of their SO, to help their SO slowly and more successfully overcome their Transphobia then that is a compromise and sacrifice of the CD and only of the CD! It can only be right when done by the free uncoerced consent of the CDs.

It is no compromise of the rights of the SO to 'allow' or 'tolerate' a certain degree of private CDing from the CD!


A different couple's dead center might be a SO going out several times per week with her husband en femme.

When it involves shared experiences like going out together then indeed that would be a matter for mutual negotiation till both are willing to give genuine consent like any activity (such as sex) that involves the two together. But just like sex either can change their mind and withdraw consent at any time for any reason. They can't stop their partner from going out or staying home however, only choose to withdraw themselves from the mutual activity.


For yet another couple, their center may be both agreeing that he should live 24/7 but not transition.

Ummm... no.

She can never ever ever ever have a say over that! That is the same principle of total bodily autonomy that makes the law in Afghanistan that a wife must consent to sex with their husband at least once every four days a wretched abomination and horrific abuse of human rights!

She has the right to choose to leave if the TG goes through transition. She has no right whatsoever to any say over whether or not they do! Nor over the choice to live 24/7 either! To have any such say goes against the foundation principles of Womens Rights, Human Rights and Western Civilisation!


All of the compromises above are reasonable.

No, some are compromises and some are abuses of human rights.


The point at which a CDer and his SO meet is different for each couple, and all points are valid as long as it is something with which each is comfortable.

And so long as the rights of each is fully understood and respected by both parties from the outset, that all decisions are made free of any coercion either overt or covert.

Transphobia is exactly like racism and sexism. It's difficult to overcome. But the line between right and wrong has already been thoroughly explored, even in and actually especially in relationships, by the rules of sexual interaction over decades of the struggle for Womens Rights.

An SO demanding a CD not dress or dress less is a human rights abuse. Plain and simple!

That a CD may have to choose to compromise their right to dress somewhat in order to assist the SO in effectively overcoming her transphobia is likely the case. But thats at the CDs choice! It's very wise certainly but the SO has no right to expect it in any way shape or form just like a husband has no right to expect a wifes consent to sex!

It's the exact same principle!
And the Transphobia we all absorb and our lack of understanding of the principles that give women the right to say no to sex and what else that means in relationships means that we are viewing notions of what constitutes selfishness for CD's through a strong unjust bias!

[Sally2005]

'Selfish' is a red herring. The real issue is an imbalance in your relationship. She is feeling like you are taking care of yourself while her life is not getting what it needs. The selfish thing to do is demand for someone else to change...really the unselfish part is to find a way to live with it.

[Satrana]

I don't think we are genuinely as a community acknowledging pervasive Transphobia and it's consequences.


I agree it is the big elephant in the room which nobody wants to highlight. As far as MTF gender expression goes, we are still living in Victorian times with antiquated ideals of what a man can and cannot do. Everyone has absorbed this nonsense and so all discussions are clouded with misconceptions about the rights and wrongs of the behavior and the appropriate response to situations. Only by appreciating that our general viewpoints on MTF gender expression are antiquated and morally unsupportable can you free yourself from traveling down dead-end streets where misidentified motivations are focussed on instead of the real underlying issues.

Such is the example of selfishness. Selfishness is not something which can be compartmentalized to just when a CD is en femme. A selfish person is selfish all of the time and so an SO will already be aware of this personality trait and can expect the same behavior whether the CD is dressed or not. When the behavior is exhibited only when en femme then it is not selfishness, rather over exuberance from the pressure cooker effect from coming out of the closet after a lifetime's imprisionment.

Just as CDs are advised to give their partners a lot of space and time to make adjustments and to realign their thoughts and feelings, so the same advice should be given to SOs to give their CD partners time and space to explore and adjust to the freedom to express their femininity. It can be difficult and frustrating for both of them but it is important to keep your mind clear that we are talking about a fundamental right of self expression on a par with women's rights so any compromises must be fair, balanced, consensual and, most of all, respectful to the ideals of equality. No GG should ever impose a restriction on her CD partner that she herself would not consent to in return.

It is not rocket science but transphobia clouds these issues to such an extent that many couples are unable to cope with the consequences and argue over side issues without ever tackling the core issues.

[ReineD]

Of course the rules and rights governing Human and Other Rights take precedence over anything else. And if each partner cannot be happy with each other's choice to participate or not, or the frequency of expression, then the relationship will not survive.

Some TGs and SOs may have powerful motives to overcome transphobia, but not everyone. Individuals do have different CDing needs and other emotions, desires and priorities that come into play when arriving at a compromise that each partner can live with. Many couples in this forum have reached a balance with the CDing that is right for them.



She has an absolute right to only participate in anything that she freely uncoercedly consents to just like the CD. She has no right to restrict or interfere with the CDs capacity however by for example controlling and minimising his private time in order to prevent or minimise the possibility of CDing.

I didn't say she has the right to restrict or interfere with the CDing. If they love one another and if all the conditions are favorable for a mutual meeting of the minds, the marriage survives. Other conditions could be he may not want to CD more than once or twice per week; he may have many other interests that in his mind conflict with the CDing. Or he may prefer to CD without his wife's participation; isn't it possible for someone to feel more comfortable CDing alone without experiencing internalized transphobia? Or he may realize his wife's limitations and willingly decide he would rather stay in the relationship and CD privately.



This notion of moving towrds the centre is assuming each persons needs and desires are coming from an equal position. That's ignoring the pervasive Transphobia both have been raised in and absorbed.

You are correct. I do assume each partner equally needs and desires to stay in the relationship. He slows down until she overcomes her fears and catches up. I am also assuming it is done by the free uncoerced consent of the CD. If not, then they cannot stay together happily and it is best to end the marriage.



She can never ever ever ever have a say over that! [snip] She has the right to choose to leave if the TG goes through transition.

This is precisely what I am saying. He does not wish to transition and she supports his dressing 24/7. Obviously if they feel differently this arrangement will not work.



No, some are compromises and some are abuses of human rights.

Human Rights are not abused if both the CD and the SO willingly, over time, come to a comfortable meeting place in the middle. And the middle is never an absolute position. It can shift either way depending on changing life circumstances. I have a friend who is out to his family and some members of the community with their full support. He chose to stop CDing for 2 years. His choice, not his SOs. The SO quite missed her husband's femme self.

I never suggested the SO should dictate the CDing terms while disregarding her husband's feelingss. But people make their choices as to what takes priority in their lives. Successful relationships are those in which both partners can be fluid and eventually find their balance, assuming of course that neither the CDer nor the SO feel coerced to do so.

[battybattybats]

Of course the rules and rights governing Human and Other Rights take precedence over anything else

But they are not! They are very much not being discussed nor understood nor acted upon relating to these issues.



Some TGs and SOs may have powerful motives to overcome transphobia, but not everyone.

This is why it's vital that as a community we start exploring the reality of Transphobia in more detail and the impacts that has on relationships, families and broader society.

Equality for women made the greatest headway when people began to admit how pervasive sexism was throughout society (its still there but its far less now because of this) and the same with Racism.

Every CD, every TS, every SO, every couple, every family and the rest of society needs to start discussing Transphobia and learning how it effects them and others.


I didn't say she has the right to restrict or interfere with the CDing.

Sure but till Transphobia is better acknowledged and understood that is often what will happen. Often the cis-person will have cis-privilege and their transphobia as well as the CDs internalised transphobia will both work to increase that no matter how well-intentioned!


If they love one another and if all the conditions are favorable for a mutual meeting of the minds, the marriage survives. Other conditions could be he may not want to CD more than once or twice per week; he may have many other interests that in his mind conflict with the CDing. Or he may prefer to CD without his wife's participation;

But while Transphobia works unconciously in both people and their friends family co-workers etc then thats a factor that will ingfluence both peoples choices!


isn't it possible for someone to feel more comfortable CDing alone without experiencing internalized transphobia?

In theory it may be but without transphobia, either their own or concern of others, theres little reason why that would be the case.


Or he may realize his wife's limitations and willingly decide he would rather stay in the relationship and CD privately.

Indeed. But thats a very great self-sacrifice that rather than being appreciated for the massive noble thing it is instead is often spoken of as something which should be expected, that a CD who does not is somehow bad or selfish.


You are correct. I do assume each partner equally needs and desires to stay in the relationship.

Ah, thats not what I meant and thats a dangerous notion often used to condemn CDs for having CDing needs or SOs for not being so easilly able to overcome their Transphobia. Yes some care more about a relationship than others but a persons need, especially once awakened, to CD or ability to undo cultural indoctrinated transphobia is no measure of their love or dedication to the relationship and far too often people on either side have so judged their partners and themselves!

What I meant is that a CDs needs may possibly be far more legitimate and greater than an SOs but the SO's as being the Cis-Normative ones are easilly considered more valid by society, the SO and even by the CD!

If one position is genuinely fair and right and the other is socially acceptable but in reality unfair and unjust because of a trnsphobic bias then the point equidistant or 50-50 between the two is not fair or just, just less unfair and less unjust but still unfair and still unjust. Whereas something 60-40 or even 90-10 from th current situation may well be the point of equal fairnss, equal justeness.. the point at where a compromise would not be abusive.


He slows down until she overcomes her fears and catches up.

Thats the ideal, but the resiliance and psychological adaptability of each person are very much a part of things. The CD may not be able to slow down an iota, and in fact it may not even be fair for them to have to! After all they have likely suffered many years of bigotry and internalised self-hate. However the fighting of the absorbed bigotry of the SO cannot easilly be overcome. But we should acknowledge the reality of what is being asked of the CD!

The CD is being asked to close the floodgates against tremendous inner pressure. The CD is being asked to suffer further injustice and disstress in order that the SO should be more comfortable. It's needed for the SO to cope but its not remotely fair or reasonable or just and any CD who does it should be lauded as a hero rather than it spoken of as an expectation or something that the CD owes others.

The resentment of a CDs CDing, of their repressing, of their hiding, of their stepping beyond an SO's comfort levels, of complicating their lives, of not living up to the macho expectations they were raised to expect in a husband... all these are understandable... but all these are wrongs done upon the CD! Just as the resentment of husbands that their wives wanted careers, to wear pants, to not cook every meal or not change every nappy were understandable... but wrongs done to the Wives!


I am also assuming it is done by the free uncoerced consent of the CD. If not, then they cannot stay together happily and it is best to end the marriage.

Ah, but this is where we have to start facing the truly ugly truth! Internalised Transphobia coerces!

And transphobia biases what both will consider reasonable and to varying extents!

It colours every choice. It is a factor in every feelling. It is the very core of every single issue related to CDing! Transphobia is the very reason this site exists! The reason that there aren't visible CDs in every town, every industry, every government.

It is absolutely a factor in every relationship even if it is not visible or understood.


Human Rights are not abused if both the CD and the SO willingly, over time, come to a comfortable meeting place in the middle.

We must acknowledge that human rights were abused from the day the CD was born! That Transphobia is constant abuse of human rights. That it is an obstacle that must be acknowledged in any negotiation. Transphobia means that it will be rare when that movement is truly willing, that the place of rest is truly in the middle or is comfortable. Instead it will more often be biased solidly on one side.


And the middle is never an absolute position. It can shift either way depending on changing life circumstances. I have a friend who is out to his family and some members of the community with their full support. He chose to stop CDing for 2 years. His choice, not his SOs. The SO quite missed her husband's femme self.

Ah but why make that choice? For many it is the struggle with the expectations within, with the internalised Transphobia! As I mentioned before there are wonderful accepting GGs whose relationship problems are cause not by their transphobia but the CDs Internalised Transphobia!


I never suggested the SO should dictate the CDing terms while disregarding her husband's feelingss.

But honestly thats what will often happen! The CD will often settle for less than they should because of Internalised Transphobia, the GG will have more power whether they use it consiously or not.


But people make their choices as to what takes priority in their lives.

And there is constant judgement that CDing is vapid, vain, meaningless, superfluous, invalid, an obstacle, unimportant... there is constant judgement on CDs and CDing, by CDs and SOs and general community. Hence fair and reasonable things often get labeled as selfish.


Successful relationships are those in which both partners can be fluid and eventually find their balance, assuming of course that neither the CDer nor the SO feel coerced to do so.

Transphobia itself is a coercive force. While everyone in face does have an obligation to oppose and undo it in themselves and the community around them.

SOs do have a responsibility to overcome their Transphobia! Or they become responsible for an horrific injustice and unfairness to their spouse! And the CDs likewise have a responsibility to overcome their Transphobia for their own sake but also for their Spouses. And everyon has that responsibility for everyone's sake!

Because our inaction on Transphobia will make us responsible by that decision not to act for the suffering caused by transphobia to the next generation of Cds and TSs etc!

[Sheila]

You know if the people shouting and lectuting in this community actually took to the streets in their heels, skirts and pink blouses and girly make up without resort to other "costumes" that would distract from being acknowledged as a cder then perhaps some headway would be made ................ but too many are prepared to scream and shout on the forums and not even think it in their soacial situations.

Are you selfish .... you damn well can be ....... can i be sure I can .... the differnce being, tell me i am being selfish and why and I am at least prepared to listen and discuss and if needs be attempt to alter my baheviour with having the need to return to the same conversation 3 months down the line.

If Debs makes , too me to many approaches into "OUR" time tog as a couple, I have the right to walk away and do something else, or ask her to take herslf out for the evening .... if she consistently refuses to set foot outside the front door (and I have previouly on a number of occasions removed me out the front door), and she dosen't, does that make her Selfish ........ YOU DECIDE ....... why should I always be the one to leave the home, just because she won't, I have as much right to be comfortable in our home as they do.

I knew Debs as Debs before I met Male Debs .. however, and Debs will acknowledge this, Male Debs has a very strong Male Side and I bought into the total package MALE & FEM . they have the right to expect my support, just as I have the right to expect theirs.

Just because I knew about Debs before we entered into our relationship, does not mean she has carte blanche to do at will. She knows I have one helluva temper, but it would be unrealistic to expect her to put up with my temper 5 night out of seven just because she knew I had it before we entered into our relationship, she also knows i have Grandkids, but again just because she knbows it and has met them, it would be unralistic of me to expect her to help me babysit them 5 nights a week, or even to ask her to accept that i babysit them 5 nights a week and go out with the girls another night ................... Knowing & living are to very different things ............... balance has to be the key ....... & that works for not just our partners but also our communities . you/we jhave no right to demand that others accepts us for who we are if we are unwilling to accept that they may not agree/like our way of life ............... demanding that they do encroaches on their rights and their freedoms as well ........ double edged sword when you start swinging that bat ..... just my :2c:

[battybattybats]

Just because I knew about Debs before we entered into our relationship, does not mean she has carte blanche to do at will. She knows I have one helluva temper, but it would be unrealistic to expect her to put up with my temper 5 night out of seven just because she knew I had it before we entered into our relationship

Yes but losing ones temper is usually to act unethically, contrary to the rights of others. Whereas to CD even if against the wishes of an SO is Ethical, within ones own rights and contrary to no-ones rights. Making them totally different and ineffective as comparisons.


she also knows i have Grandkids, but again just because she knbows it and has met them, it would be unralistic of me to expect her to help me babysit them 5 nights a week, or even to ask her to accept that i babysit them 5 nights a week and go out with the girls another night

And babysitting children is to become responsible for a dependant taking on the protection of the rights of another being, while CDing has nothing to do with that. Your within your rights to ask her to help, she's within her rights to refuse. Ah but in this case it's a better example, as your within your rights to ask her not to CD on a given day but she's within her rights to refuse.


balance has to be the key ....... & that works for not just our partners but also our communities .

Yes! Absolutely! The balance of equal rights mutually defining equal borders! Without the balance, without equality, then the result is injustice.


you/we jhave no right to demand that others accepts us for who we are if we are unwilling to accept that they may not agree/like our way of life

Actually as everyones claim to their own rights is predicated on the notion of Equality then no matter their dislike, and we needn't expect people to like everything, they must respect our rights or they lose any valid claim to their own rights.


............... demanding that they do encroaches on their rights and their freedoms as well

Not neccessarily. Rights are limited by equality. Just as there is no right to murder someone against their wishes because of their right to life as well as their right to Bodily Autonomy and their right to Self Determination. So in fact those people have an obligation to respect others equality.

Just as a husband from a traditionally sexist culture... say a legal immigrant from tribal Afghanistan... upon becoming a citizen of a modern democracy must respect their Wives consent or lack thereof and may not disregard her saying 'No!'. His rights and freedoms are not encroached upon. His power and his privilege have been reduced to make her closer to equal though because he is forced to respect her rights.

Now he may not like her right to say no suddenly being enforceable, but he'll need to learn to overcome his sexism. Because he is obliged to respect her rights and not act contrary to them.

[Lorileah]

You know if the people shouting and lectuting in this community actually took to the streets in their heels, skirts and pink blouses and girly make up without resort to other "costumes" that would distract from being acknowledged as a cder then perhaps some headway would be made ................ but too many are prepared to scream and shout on the forums and not even think it in their soacial situations.

.... just my :2c:

So true. Every group who has gained inroads in the last 50 years has done so by finally saying "Enough!" But we as a group have not reached that point of no return (sorry Batty has but she seems to be a lone voice here). So maybe we are selfish in that manner. We are selfish in our little shells. Our comfortable homes and lives. We can and do morph into beings of society who "fit in". And we fear getting out of that comfort zone. Women could not for the most part do that in 1918. So they had to stand up. And they were told they were selfish for not wanting to be mothers and wives who were content to stay home waiting for the man to come in and ignore them or beat them. (Broad generalization). So being selfish brought them to a level closer to the male. Stonewall was the breaking point for gays. Most gays could and did blend but were unhappy and finally got tired of the abuse and degradation. They were selfish in wanting to live their lives. The unfortunate circumstance of that was the AIDs fear that sent them back into hiding for more years. African-Americans had to be selfish to get what little they have now.

None of these groups come near the selfishness of the WASP male. We didn't complain about the three piece monkey suit male who raided our retirement for the spa treatment in Vegas. But they were selfish and many of us were proud of them when we were getting the crumbs of their success.

So are we selfish? Yes as I said it is human nature to want more. Now if we are truly tired of the brow beating we need to turn that selfishness into action. Hard to do when so many of us are in a comfort zone where we only use our selfishness to press upon the people who love us. We make those people angry and depressed but don't want to rock the boat with the community. In a round about way, the marches and the anger from two other groups who fought for recognition has made us feel safer in our own cocoons.

[ReineD]

I admit some of these posts are lengthy, but it is obvious the issue needs to be discussed. This is an issue that comes up time and time again on this forum and a consensus has yet to be reached: Selfishness vs. Need when couples cannot happily incorporate the CDing in their lives.

Batty, perhaps our definitions of "the middle" are different. Are you assuming that by "middle" I mean the CDer having to repress some of her needs to CD? By middle I mean wherever both the CD and SO can find a way to incorporate the CDing in their lives so they may live comfortably within the confines of our society. And for each couple this will be different, since not every CD's needs are the same. It is my understanding based on the many posts I have read in this forum that many CDs truly do not want to dress on a daily basis because they very much enjoy their male attributes and the lifestyles they have built for themselves.

Inasmuch as we all wish transphobia did not exist, in reality we are at the forefront of having it be addressed in our society, and frankly I do not know when or if it will ever be completely eradicated. I still do not understand whether it comes from external influences or if it is hardwired, although this is a topic for another discussion. In the meantime both CDers and SOs need to make the best choices for themselves, choices that will afford them and their children a chance for happiness within their life circumstances. Not everyone is ready to embark on a militant path to reform society's attitudes, although I very much admire those who do.

In my original post, I described different situations based on the various levels of expression that CDs are uncoercedly happy with. It is obvious that if the various arrangements I described do not fulfill the CDer's need for expression and she requires more than her wife is capable of living with, then their relationship is in jeopardy.

In an ideal world, we all behave ethically and respect one another's Human Rights. But we are imperfect, emotional beings each on our own growth paths and most us need to prioritize our lives accordingly if we want to find a balance with loved ones.

In other words, most of us do the best we possibly can given the tools we have. Obviously if one of the partners finds their life unbearable given their circumstances, he or she can leave the relationship.

[karmatic1110]

I believe everyone is selfish, but we are in the unique position of having to be outwardly so to obtain happiness. I don't think selfishness is a bad thing. It's recognizing what you need and what you are willing to put on the line to succeed.

[curse within]

Do you control CDing or does CDing control you? If I controlled it...I SURE AS HELL WOULDN'T BE HERE!!

[battybattybats]

Batty, perhaps our definitions of "the middle" are different. Are you assuming that by "middle" I mean the CDer having to repress some of her needs to CD?

I'm suggesting that Transphobia and Internalised Transphobia means that even the CD is going to be biased against themselves somewhat and so untill it is proporly addressed the proper middle cannot be found.


Inasmuch as we all wish transphobia did not exist, in reality we are at the forefront of having it be addressed in our society,

Actually i think Out Transsexuals are at the forefront, we could be but we aren't.


and frankly I do not know when or if it will ever be completely eradicated.

Even though racism and sexism haven't been clearly in just a couple generations both can be so massively reduced that many countries have had female heads of state and the USA has a non-white president. So clearly such deeply entrenched biases can be massively reduced at the very minimum.


I still do not understand whether it comes from external influences or if it is hardwired, although this is a topic for another discussion.

Actually it can be easilly dealt with in one post. Tonga, Samoa, Tiwi Islands, many Native American First Nations.... there are whole cultures where TG is reverred and respected and there used to be many more so it cannot possibly be hardwired and can only be a socially constructed external influence. No need for wasting a seperate discussion on it. Anthropology and History have the answer right there.


In the meantime both CDers and SOs need to make the best choices for themselves, choices that will afford them and their children a chance for happiness within their life circumstances.

As evidence is growing that TG has a genetic predisposition many here will have TG grandchildren and maybe TG children. That puts us into the dilemma of whether the right thing for children includes changing societies acceptanc of transphobia! It brings up the argument feminists faced that by avoiding difficulties in their own lives they were selfishly condemning their daughters and granddaughters to face those difficulties instead.


Not everyone is ready to embark on a militant path to reform society's attitudes, although I very much admire those who do.

It sure doesn't have to be militant. Active is not neccessarily militant. Even from the closet many can be active without being remotely millitant.


In an ideal world, we all behave ethically and respect one another's Human Rights. But we are imperfect, emotional beings each on our own growth paths and most us need to prioritize our lives accordingly if we want to find a balance with loved ones.

In an ideal world we would have no concept of Ethics or right and wrong as we would not have a need for those concepts. Instead we do. And yes, the right thing to do is usually the hardest, whether it's overcoming enough Internalised Transphobia to come out to a GG before marriage despite the risk of being blackmailed ot outted to the whole Transphobic community or whether it's respecting a CDs right to say no to a request to CD less or not go out to the support group meeting or not shave their legs.

Doing the Right thing often means doing the really really really hard thing and suffering consequences for doing so.

And we must consider that it may very well be selfish to choose comfort for ones self and ones SO when allowing other CDs to suffer, allowing the next generation of CDs to suffer, when passing along not just genes that may mean that children, grandchildren or great grandchildren may be CD or TS but allowing to pass on in the society around those children the Transphobia that will hurt them.

By being comfortable and avoiding risks to ourselves by not oppossing the Transphobia now in order to reduce its future effects on future CDs including our own descendants are we CDs and SOs together not being selfish? Much much much more selfish in fact than any interpersonal relationship selfishness? Supremely selfish even?

[Satrana]

To summarize a key point in Batty's posts, we must admit that transphobia is so pervasive in our way of thinking that we all unconsciously use it when dealing with CD issues. If true, this means that all discussions and assumptions made by CDs and their SOs are likely to be unbalanced.

To put it more simply, the CD is the one who has a weird and taboo behavior and so the onus is put on him to take whatever corrective measures are deemed necessary to sooth the transphobia of the SO. In turn the SO is painted as the victim and her transphobia has to be respected and validated. And importantly since the silent majority of society is likewise transphobic, the SO is under no social duress to address her transphobia. The CD typically racked with guilt and low self-esteem will seek whatever levels of tolerance he can get in fear his CDing will result in social isolation and financial ruin. Hardly good circumstances to find just and equitable compromises.

In truth, the situation is reversed - the CD is the victim of prejudice and the SO - in the unfortunate position of being the representative of social values - is the one tackling the CD behavior with underlying transphobia.

The picture gets messy pretty quickly. For example CDs are advised to stride forward into the public, demanding our just rights, not taking NO for an answer and ignoring those who would want to silence us. However we get completely the opposite advice when dealing with our SOs, we cannot stride forward, we must hobble; we cannot demand our rights because they must be balanced with transphobic rights of the SO to restrict the dressing; CDs must respect NOs from their SO and agree to go back into the closet.

The world is not fair or just and everyone has to fight for their rights. I get that. CDs should not expect to have equality handed to them on a plate. At the same time we cannot head in the right direction towards our goal of equality if the roads that lead there are shrouded in transphobic fog.

That is why Batty's posts are important because only by focusing on the dry discussion points of morality, equality, human rights etc can the transphobic fog be dispersed to reveal the correct path forwards.

[ReineD]

No need for wasting a seperate discussion on it. Anthropology and History have the answer right there.

They still do not explain why a number of non-transphobic GGs cannot become sexually attracted to their partners en femme. I disagree with the argument that sexual preference is socially constructed.



Doing the Right thing often means doing the really really really hard thing and suffering consequences for doing so.

Are you judging the CDers and SOs who cannot live up to your standards? If they find ways to happily, even satisfactorily incorporate the CDing in their lives whether he dresses privately a few times per week or they live 24/7, are they necessarily beaten down by internalized or externalized transphobia for not going all the way through SRS?

Or are you suggesting the scenarios I've described where couples genuinely do find a happy balance with the CDing are idealistic?

[ReineD]

The world is not fair or just and everyone has to fight for their rights. I get that. CDs should not expect to have equality handed to them on a plate. At the same time we cannot head in the right direction towards our goal of equality if the roads that lead there are shrouded in transphobic fog.

That is why Batty's posts are important because only by focusing on the dry discussion points of morality, equality, human rights etc can the transphobic fog be dispersed to reveal the correct path forwards.

I get that too. What I don't get are all the posts from the CDers who say they are happy with their level of CDing even if it is a few times per week, or who say they do not want to come out at work or in their social circles, or do not want to live 24/7. Are they all in denial over suffering from internalized transphobia? Are they all convincing themselves they are happy in their guy modes because they fear losing SOs, jobs and social standing?

[NiCo]

1) Is it being selfish for us to be ourselves even if it hurts someone else?

It's equally as selfish of them for you feeling selfish about being yourself even if it hurt someone. AND the worst thing is, it's even more selfish of them to actually expect you to discard these feelings. Tut tut.

2) Is our going out dressed a compulsion?

It's apart of your lives. It's not completely compulsion, i'd say it's more a natural feeling, it has to be done to keep you sane, i guess. But then again, it can be compulsion in some cases.

3) Is it selfish to want to express the female side?

No, whether it be a fetish or apart of your life, it's never selfish to do so unless done in spite of someone else.

4) Is it selfish to want no body or facial hair?

Is it selfish for a self-conscious person to have plastic surgery? No, it's called "THEIR LIFE THEY CAN DO WHAT THE HELL THEY WANT" Syndrome.

5) How can it be selfish when this started at age 5 when I was just a kid?

It's not at all, i think it's very selfish for anyone who doesn't accept someone who has had these feelings for so long, or any feeling so that they can feel good about themselves and not think about how YOU feel...that's selfish, they should STFU (Shut the **** up, LOL)

Be yourself, if someone doesn't like that, they aren't worth it and you shouldn't waste your time on them until they grow up and accept you for who you are.

Amen.

[battybattybats]

They still do not explain why a number of non-transphobic GGs cannot become sexually attracted to their partners en femme. I disagree with the argument that sexual preference is socially constructed.

There is some evidence that it is partly so, that only a small percentage of people are totally heterosexual or totaly homosexual and that about the same amount has no sexual inclination or desire at all, the vast majority of people being variations of bisexual. But it is difficult to study and the debate is far from concluded.

And of course there are very many repressed homosexual and bisexual men and women. As shown by scientific studies on unconcious sexual responses to homoerotic imagery the most homophobic people are in fact repressed gays themselves. So their sexual preferance, consciously at least, is indeed socially-constructed contrary to their natural inclinations.

But my point was on whether transphobia was hardwired and that is proven by history and anthropology to not be so! Whether sexuality is is a seperate point and not the one I was making.


Are you judging the CDers and SOs who cannot live up to your standards?

Sigh. No, that would be morality, I am discussing Ethics! I realise most people don't get taught about that. Ethics determines what is right and what is wrong for cogent and objective reasons why something is right or wrong, not based on my personal comfort zones and preferances.

The reasons why what I described as right is right is the same reason that not raping someone is right. Not the law, not the upset they may go through, not the culture, not religion, not the social taboo but because it is a clear violation of their right to autonomy, to choose, to give or not give consent. Same reasons therefore the same rules apply.


If they find ways to happily, even satisfactorily incorporate the CDing in their lives whether he dresses privately a few times per week or they live 24/7, are they necessarily beaten down by internalized or externalized transphobia for not going all the way through SRS?

Not every transgender person would choose SRS if they lived without transphobia, in fact I think a small number of those who get SRS would not do so if they lived without transphobia!

However the internalised transphobia is likely to make many CDs lie to their partners and even to themselves and settle for less discomfort than genuinely find comfort! They may not even realise thats what they are doing!

The same phenomena of Internalised Oppression has been studied in Indiginous Peoples around the world and how they will settle for far less in careers, in society, in relationships because they come to believe its all they deserve or all they can achieve because they have internalised the Colonial cultures Racism.

The same in women especially earlier in the rise in womens equality. In careers and education. With women in abusive relationships. From internalising Patriarchal cultures Sexism.


Or are you suggesting the scenarios I've described where couples genuinely do find a happy balance with the CDing are idealistic?

I'm stating, not suggesting because internalised oppression is a fact that has been observed in far less taboo and oppressed groups than transgender, that Transphobia and Internalised Transphobia means that even the perceptions let alone the expectations and decisions of both CD and SO will be skewed!

That a fair decision or discussion will be impossible because the transphobia unless and untill it is fully understood and addressed will render it unfair. That what the SO will be happy with will be unjustly skewed towards a transphobic result. That what the CD will settle for will be skewed towards a transphobic result.

That all this talk of CDing being selfish is in itself a transphobic idea and a transphobic discussion from an assumed position of cis-gender as normal. From cis-privilege.

Identical in every way to when womens rights were discussed and judged by their effects on their husbands it was about male patriarchal privilege.


I get that too. What I don't get are all the posts from the CDers who say they are happy with their level of CDing even if it is a few times per week, or who say they do not want to come out at work or in their social circles, or do not want to live 24/7. Are they all in denial over suffering from internalized transphobia? Are they all convincing themselves they are happy in their guy modes because they fear losing SOs, jobs and social standing?

Not every CD without Internalised Transphobia would transition or dress 24/7. Some will assuredly be Bi-Gender.

But if it were not for the transphobia in society, for the fear of transphobia in society, for any in themselves...

Then what possible reason would they have for not being out and openly a CD? Why would they hide it from friends, family, work if there was no judgement or discimination or negative consequences or fear of them?

Just because some say they feel no 'pressing need' to come out... why would there be any benefit or reason or need not to?

It will be extremely rare people who have managed to not absorb or to shrug off early enough transphobia as to be easilly out and open and not have to struggle with internalised transphobia. The same for SOs friends and family.

And even if they think themselves accepting they may unawares still have transphobic views or attitudes or influences. Just as in the 70's a man may have considered themselves not sexist because they did not object to women working beside them but feel free to interrupt them, ignore their views, stare at their bodies, be sexually harassing. Becuase they understood all those behaviours to not be sexist, sexist being in their limited understanding telling women to stay at home and cook dinner and not work. Instead they often viewed such behaviour as 'normal' and 'just the way things are' and not know they were being sexist. Yet clearly to us now in less sexist times they very much were when they slapped passing backsides and called co-workers 'babe' etc.

It's the same thing.

[Miranda09]

There are alot of valid and interesting points being made here. If you are in a relationship with a gf/wife etc, then I think that its only fair that she be brought into the arena with you (so to speak). Let's face it, many relationships can fail if one or the other partners gets so wrapped up in their personal activities, hobbies or whatever, that the other starts to feel left out, unimportant, and neglected. If that is the case, then yes, there is a definite degree of selfishness. Now I'm coming from a point of view of never having to have faced this issue with an SO. I hope someday I'll have that opportunity, and I hope I will be open and sensitive to her views as I hope she will be sensitive to mine as well. I still believe that my CDing can be a rather exciting sexual toy between us. There's my 2 cents worth! :)

[ReineD]

Then what possible reason would they have for not being out and openly a CD? Why would they hide it from friends, family, work if there was no judgement or discimination or negative consequences or fear of them?

Good point. And with that, I capitulate. :hugs:

[Satrana]

They still do not explain why a number of non-transphobic GGs cannot become sexually attracted to their partners en femme. I disagree with the argument that sexual preference is socially constructed.

Could it be that GGs sexual attraction is partially based upon their idealized desire for masculinity and the role men are supposed to play in a relationship, and they are unable to connect with those feelings when they see their man en femme because the visual transformation is too striking, and perhaps still unnerving because all the other men she sees still adhere to their masculine roles. Is it possible to escape the feeling that your man was weird when there are no other examples around?


What I don't get are all the posts from the CDers who say they are happy with their level of CDing even if it is a few times per week, or who say they do not want to come out at work or in their social circles, or do not want to live 24/7. Are they all in denial over suffering from internalized transphobia? Are they all convincing themselves they are happy in their guy modes because they fear losing SOs, jobs and social standing?

What is there to understand? Everyone has different levels of femininity and also derive different needs from dressing. Also just because they can suffice with a limited amount of dressing does not mean that in a free world devoid of prejudice they would not spend much more time expressing their femininity. We won't know the answer until that day arrives.

As far as the privacy is concerned, then yes this is partly shame and transphobia but it is also a learned behavior. Our relationship with our feminine thoughts develop in complete secrecy and isolation and many like that to continue since it avoids all the problems of encountering other’s prejudices and it allows the CD to explore whatever fantasies they desire without criticism.

For all the talk of pink fog etc, as far as I can see the vast majority of CDs are well grounded in reality. We know that our CDing is not going to win us any favors so we have trained ourselves to be satisfied with getting quick fixes and planning for special nights out. This is how we integrate our needs in the real world which expects us to be normal males to acquire the creature comforts and social acceptance. Everything has balance after all and being transgendered means a mixture of masculine and feminine. Those who live 24/7 are no longer living a transgendered lifestyle but are adhering to the binary system.

Transphobia and the resulting closeted lifestyle warps the behavior of CDs. You are not seeing a true reflection of CDs because in a free world we would just be tomgirls – men who like being girly. Nobody would bat an eye at this or even consider it to be abnormal.

[Michelia]

Just like someone on a drug or under the influence of alcohol or suffering mental illmess I think the pink fog state interferes with and occludes proper judgement and reasoning and thus makes all blame unreasonable!

Batty,

You are so cool and brilliant and such an inspiration. And...

I could not agree more. If someone is in a pink fog, they should seek help before they lose their job, spouse, or life.