Non Transitioning Transsexual.

[Vicky_Scot]

We have various labels for what we are.

CD, TV .TS etc but their seems to be one missing.

NTT - Non Transitioning Transsexual

I firmly believe that there are many of us out there in the big world that are in a place between being a crossdresser and a transsexual.

I do not want to be a woman,I do not want to have surgery, but is CD'ing enough for me. The answer has to be NO.

Anyone else feel this way?

Xx Vicky xX

[Shikyo]

There should be transsexuals who don't want to have a surgery because the life situation or any other reasons. But to my knowledge a transsexual itself already means one wants to be a women, it does not necessary mean wanting to go through the SRS or anything. But wanting to at least live the life as woman.

So if you don't want to be a women, then you are not really a transsexual as you don't want to be the opposite sex, if you understand what I mean. There should be plenty of transsexuals who do not want to have any operation on them, especially on the side of FTM. They just keep the body they have but they live in the role of the other sex.

[TommiTN]

disagree, Shikyo. It is entirely possible for a person to only want to be a transsexual, that is they only want a partial transition without full SRS.

[Shikyo]

disagree, Shikyo. It is entirely possible for a person to only want to be a transsexual, that is they only want a partial transition without full SRS.

At what point did I say transsexuals have to get a full SRS? I don't recall saying that at all. In fact, I said that there are lots of transsexuals who don't want to have any operation at all, but even then they live as the opposite sex.. I only said that if you don't want to be of the opposite sex, you're not a transsexual.

The definition of transsexual (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/transsexual?view=uk) is that one feels that one is the opposite sex but has the wrong physical body, without this feeling you just are not a transsexual. How far you want to go with it, it's all up to you. Everyone has different needs about that, but being a transsexual has nothing to do with the operations and hormones, but with the feeling of being the wrong sex.

[Vicky_Scot]

Sorry but this was not asked to cause an arguement.

I firmly believe that there is somewhere between being a CD and a TS. I would put myself in that place and all I asked was does anyone else feel like this.

I think this is a topic that should be discussed and has valid arguements on both sides but please act resposibly when replying and not turn this subject matter into a reason to attack others.

You may not agree with someones point of view but at least have the decency to respect it.

Thanks

Xx Vicky xX

[Susan Watersfield]

Vicky,

The subject of labels and terminology can be a minefield. Different groups and of course different counties use various lables to describe the same thing. Then again the same label can be ued to describe different conditions.

As far as Transexuals go, I've always thought of them in three categories:

The Non-op TS - one who wishes to live as a woman but without any medical intervention.

The Pre-op TS - one who is transitioning but has yet to undergo SRS

The Post-op TS - one who has had SRS and completed the transition.

I'm sure there are many who will disagree with this interpretation, but it's the way I see things.

As for myself I am a crossdresser who spends as much of her time as possible in a female role. The amount of time I spend varies, and for me there is currently no clear objective regarding my eventual status.

To make things simple, I describe myself as Transgendered, or TG.

But however you see yourself Vicky, make the most of your transgendered nature and enjoy it. That's my view of how I am and it's the way I get the most out of being transgendered, or a tgirl :)

Luv

Susan

[Stephanie Stephens]

pre-opp and post-opp ?

[Shikyo]

Sorry but this was not asked to cause an arguement.

Sorry, but there was no sign of you wanting to make a statement instead of a discussion in the first post.


I firmly believe that there is somewhere between being a CD and a TS. I would put myself in that place and all I asked was does anyone else feel like this.

I'm not denying that at all. I just got caught up the fact that you said you don't want to be a women, but you were still talking about transsexuals. I guess I just misunderstood your first post.


I think this is a topic that should be discussed and has valid arguements on both sides but please act resposibly when replying and not turn this subject matter into a reason to attack others.

I apologize if I seemed to be attacking someone, it definitely was not my aim.


You may not agree with someones point of view but at least have the decency to respect it.

Thanks

Xx Vicky xX

I don't think that I showed any disrespect though. I just said what I thought about it. Not to forget there is a clear definition for a transsexual which I was talking about, but I also said that it is not that uncommon to have transsexuals not wanting to transform.


pre-opp and post-opp ?

Pre-opp a person who plans to have a SRS, but has not done it yet.

Post-opp a person who has had a SRS.

[Susan Watersfield]

I firmly believe that there is somewhere between being a CD and a TS. I would put myself in that place and all I asked was does anyone else feel like this.


Thanks

Xx Vicky xX

Vicky,

Just to add a bit more.

Yes, I do agree there is somewhere between CD & TS. It's where I am at present :)

Just dressing as a woman is not enough, but full time is neither an option or a desire at present.

Where this is going to lead for me I'm not sure. But I intend to make it an interesting journey :)

Hope that helps.

Luv

Susan

[TommiTN]

So a person who does not feel that he or she wants to be the opposite sex from their birth sex but who takes medical steps to appear that way except for genital surgery is not a TS? There are many who enjoy exactly that status and have no wish to take it further. Perhaps the question is more about gender than sex?

[Shikyo]

So a person who does not feel that he or she wants to be the opposite sex from their birth sex but who takes medical steps to appear that way except for genital surgery is not a TS? There are many who enjoy exactly that status and have no wish to take it further. Perhaps the question is more about gender than sex?

Yes, I would not consider this person a TS. Like Susan and Vicky have already pointed out, it would be someone who would be between a CD and a TS.

[Vicky_Scot]

Vicky,

Just to add a bit more.

Yes, I do agree there is somewhere between CD & TS. It's where I am at present :)

Just dressing as a woman is not enough, but full time is neither an option or a desire at present.

Where this is going to lead for me I'm not sure. But I intend to make it an interesting journey :)

Hope that helps.

Luv

Susan


Susan you hit the nail on the head with that statement.

That is exactly the feelings I have. We both seem to be in the same place at this moment in time.

Xx Vicky xX


Yes, I would not consider this person a TS. Like Susan and Vicky have already pointed out, it would be someone who would be between a CD and a TS.

Would you have a name for this person?

Xx Vicky xX

[Susan Watersfield]

So a person who does not feel that he or she wants to be the opposite sex from their birth sex but who takes medical steps to appear that way except for genital surgery is not a TS? There are many who enjoy exactly that status and have no wish to take it further. Perhaps the question is more about gender than sex?


Yes, I would not consider this person a TS. Like Susan and Vicky have already pointed out, it would be someone who would be between a CD and a TS.

My intial reaction to this was that I have learnt something new today.

But then I realized I was wrong. I have indeed heard a similar situation being discussed.

But as to how you describe a person in this situation, I'm afraid I just don't know. But I am eager to find out.

Luv

Susan


Susan you hit the nail on the head with that statement.

That is exactly the feelings I have. We both seem to be in the same place at this moment in time.

Xx Vicky xX





Vicky,

Nice to meet you :) :) :)

I look foward to further discussions in the future.

Luv

Susan X

[Sandra]

The Non-op TS - one who wishes to live as a woman but without any medical intervention.



This is my SO and she's been living 24/7 for the past 4 years. She doesn't have the feeling that she is in the wrong body, but just dressing on the odd occasion is not enough for her and so she went full time.

[Kate Simmons]

Hmm, I think an apt description of someone in that position would be: "Career girl".:)

[Sara Jessica]

This little debate struck a nerve with me because the title is an apt description of me.

Think of it this way, being TS is something you either are or are not. Many of us recognize at a very early age that something is not right with our gender.

Being a CD'er on the other hand is being a participant in an activity, albeit a very intense and emotional one that I'm sure might seem like it's rooted in some sort of hard-wiring (and it may in fact be that way). Yet we're still talking about behaviour, not a state of being. A CD'er may decide that she'd prefer to live as a woman full time but does that mean she is a woman between the ears? If so, then she was kidding herself from the beginning as to her motivations for dressing.

As for me, i am a non-transitioning TS due to the path my life has taken me thus far and my desire to keep it all together. Being TS isn't defined by how I live my life or whether I choose to have surgery. It's simply who I am.

[Karren H]

Ohhh how wonderful.... More labels..... Sigh.....

[Sarah...]

We have various labels for what we are.

CD, TV .TS etc but their seems to be one missing.

NTT - Non Transitioning Transsexual

I firmly believe that there are many of us out there in the big world that are in a place between being a crossdresser and a transsexual.

I do not want to be a woman,I do not want to have surgery, but is CD'ing enough for me. The answer has to be NO.

Anyone else feel this way?

Xx Vicky xX

I don't feel that way, no. In my view there will be ever more subdivisions of the existing labels if we keep discussing this in this way. The logical conclusion is that your definitive label will be "Vicky" and mine will be "Sarah". Because we are not the same and so our labels will not be the same.

:)

Sarah...

[boardpuppy]

Hi Eveerybody,
I just wanted to agree with Susan's areas/definations of TS and expand on the Non-Op TS one. This area has a lot of gray to Her defination but I agree with it as I am flounding in there somewhere. I am still loooking/asking/reading for answers and ideas. I have not been able to make the information I have to date gell into a clear picture, yet. Depending on the day and how I feel, I can agree with a Posters opion one day and disagree with it the next. If you consider this confusing just think how I feel at times. There is a place for me in the Non-Op TS definition, but I just don't know where it is yet.

Hugs,
Alice
PS I have stepped on some toes (in the forum) because I didn't know the rules (does and don't). To those individual I can only say I'm sorry, I am trying.

[Karren H]

PS I have stepped on some toes (in the forum) because I didn't know the rules (does and don't). To those individual I can only say I'm sorry, I am trying.

There are rules?? I need to check that out! Lol

[Donna Marie]

[QUOTE=Susan Watersfield;1695318]My intial reaction to this was that I have learnt something new today.

But then I realized I was wrong. I have indeed heard a similar situation being discussed.

But as to how you describe a person in this situation, I'm afraid I just don't know. But I am eager to find out.

Luv

Susan


Susan, I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.

[Susan Watersfield]

Hi Eveerybody,
I just wanted to agree with Susan's areas/definations of TS and expand on the Non-Op TS one. This area has a lot of gray to Her defination but I agree with it as I am flounding in there somewhere. I am still loooking/asking/reading for answers and ideas. I have not been able to make the information I have to date gell into a clear picture, yet. Depending on the day and how I feel, I can agree with a Posters opion one day and disagree with it the next. If you consider this confusing just think how I feel at times. There is a place for me in the Non-Op TS definition, but I just don't know where it is yet.

Hugs,
Alice
PS I have stepped on some toes (in the forum) because I didn't know the rules (does and don't). To those individual I can only say I'm sorry, I am trying.

Alice,

You're not alone in feeling confused about your tg nature. I'm in my late 50s, been tg since the age of 13 and been dressing regularly for several years.

Sometimes I think I understand where I am, and then realize I don't. Just lately I've noticed a change in how I feel, and although I'm confortable with it, it has still be a surprise.

No two tg's are the same, no matter what categories we think we occupy. After all, regardless of being transgendered, we are all individuals.

The best thing to do is to come on here and see what others are saying, and of course make your contributions. In that you are most welcome :)

Luv

Susan

[docrobbysherry]

Ohhh how wonderful.... More labels..... Sigh.....

---in a recent thread, I said I didn't feel like I was TS. Rather, simply a CD.:brolleyes:

The DEFINITION of a TG individual was trotted out by a member here. Which said that;

"Individuals who repeatedly and knowingly, dress in clothes of the opposite sex, r TG!":eek:

Sorry to interrupt. U can go back to your arguement now!:)

[Lisa Golightly]

There is no grey area... You either is or you either ain't. If you're CD you dress if you is TS you is a mess... lol :)

If you consider yourself really, and I mean really a female then you're TS... Whether you want to take hormones, have your bits sliced and diced, or simply do nothing at all but think and feel.

CD's are about wearing the clothes and good for them... It's nice they've found an enjoyable hobby... which may lead to some rather interesting longterm lifestyle choices... be it either dressing 24/7 (which I tried for a few years while I lied to myself some more ;)) or even making some cosmetic modifications to their bodies.

Me I feel permanently like a bit of a girl, well a total girl, even naked looking in the mirror at some very girlish and not so girlish bits... hey-ho :)


PS... If you're interested... I started as a do nothing... progressed to hormones are ok but woooooah to slashing at me with a scapel... to I want one and I want it now... What can I say?... It was the coward in me dragging her heels :)

[DonnaT]

As far as Transexuals go, I've always thought of them in three categories:

The Non-op TS - one who wishes to live as a woman but without any medical intervention.

The Pre-op TS - one who is transitioning but has yet to undergo SRS

The Post-op TS - one who has had SRS and completed the transition.
Regardless of the labels, even Vicky's "NTT - Non Transitioning Transsexual", they are all transsexuals.

Not sure why anyone thinks it is important to have labels, however.

[marla01]

If the term transseuxal is inclusive of those who are not at odds with their physical birth sex, then I would suggest the word has been totally redefined, perhaps even scarily so.

My understanding of the term (and I have been active in the T* community for 20+ years) is that the need to change, or at least dsyphoria with one's physical birth sex is the defining characteristic of transsexual.

As such, while no-op transseuxal is quite possible (dysphoria with one's sex but not changing one's sex), one cannot assume all males who are women or females who are men are ipso facto transseuxals. Many, perhaps most, such transgendered individuals have no dysphoria with their physical sex and therefore should not be considered transseuxal.

Certainly, I am uncomfortable with having the term transsexual be expanded to include myself.

Marla

[María José]

Sorry but this was not asked to cause an arguement.

I firmly believe that there is somewhere between being a CD and a TS. I would put myself in that place and all I asked was does anyone else feel like this.



I disagree. There is nothing between a transexual and a crossdresser. Well, there is people who don´t kwow were he/she is, but definitions are clear.

[karmatic1110]

I think more variation is quite possible. I know quite a few people who wouldn't fall into either category neatly. I personally transitioned and am non-op.

Some people have very little gender dysphoria but I would still consider them falling withing the transgendered realm. I know for me that I didn't wear a single piece of women's clothing until after I began transitioning. Then again, I am pretty butch :P

[KarenCDFL]

I happen to agree with Vicky whole heartedly!

I personally fit into the NTT category (thats if I wanted to be pigeon-holed).

I know how I feel inside.
I know how I feel when all dolled up and feminine.
I have been through counseling and I have confirmed the above.

The outside does not match the inside and there is nothing I can do or will do about that other than enjoy dressing up as often as I please (with my accepting wife). Maybe I will be born right in my next life!

No matter what anyone says with all of their buzzwords and labels, this is how I have decided to live out the rest of my life and that is all there is to it. And that does not change any of the facts.

There is so much hatred in the world using racist labels, religious labels and gender labels. You would think that the people that have accepted the fact that there are gender issues in their lives would be more enlightened then the rest of the world.

Just my 1 cent ... Lost the other cent in the Market!

[Kelsy]

If the term transseuxal is inclusive of those who are not at odds with their physical birth sex,

Certainly, I am uncomfortable with having the term transsexual be expanded to include myself.

Marla

I Have a question!! For a man to desire to wear woman's clothes, to go out and maybe even desire to pass as a woman, Isn't that man at odds with his birth sex ?? Most men acting as men do not desire these things? The only exclusion that I can truly understand is the man who is a sexual fetishist!!! Personaly I dress as a woman because I feel like a woman, I see myself that way, but that has evolved. I desire physical changes and hormones because I am uncomfortable as a man! The only things that keep me from transitioning are my surrounding life circumstances and a whole lot of fear!!

Kelsy

[robyn1114]

There are many different levels of transgendered, just as there are different terms to describe us, but none is better then the other just different. The important thing is find happiness within yourself regardless of the label society wants to put on us.


For a man to desire to wear woman's clothes, to go out and maybe even desire to pass as a woman, Isn't that man at odds with his birth sex ?? Kelsy

I don't entirely agree with that. Many Cd's have a strong sense of their femininity and have a desire/need to express that side of themselves, but at the same time live a happy and fulfilling life as a man. Sure it might not be the social norm, but I don't think they're really at odds with their birth sex.

[Ashlie Marie]

It is funny how this topic has come up a couple dozen times in these forums over last couple of weeks. Labels suck we all should agree on that right? Maybe I am wrong. If it comes too it I think Crossdresser is such a 1970's term LOL TG or trangender is the common to what I have been hearing. My therapist keeps throwing around this term transgenderist Wiki state its a Lifetime Pre-op and since I am starting hormones shortly and live fulltime now but my "maleness" is staying it is my bond to my marrige and my daughter. and unless GRS becomes more common and safer, and federal TS marraige laws are created I am who I am :-)

hugs

[DonnaT]

I Have a question!! For a man to desire to wear woman's clothes, to go out and maybe even desire to pass as a woman, Isn't that man at odds with his birth sex ??

Not at all.

It's at odds to what society expects a man to NOT wear, however.

Note that men used to dress in frilly clothes and even tights long before it became unacceptable. Heck, men used to wear skirts all the time, before britches were invented.

In some societies, men still don't wear pants. Some wear sarongs, for example.

[Kelsy]

Not at all.

It's at odds to what society expects a man to NOT wear, however.

Note that men used to dress in frilly clothes and even tights long before it became unacceptable. Heck, men used to wear skirts all the time, before britches were invented.

In some societies, men still don't wear pants. Some wear sarongs, for example.

I find much of this confusing just as I have been confused about myself for all these years!! I Find that CDing doesn't relieve me of my Identity problem. For me it is not about the clothes! then there are times when I really need to escape some how!!! (can't run away from myself I've tried!)It is always a battle. I find that I am a mess most of the time!

Kelsy:sad:

[MissConstrued]

For a man to desire to wear woman's clothes, to go out and maybe even desire to pass as a woman, Isn't that man at odds with his birth sex ??


Not at all. I am, and always have been, at odds with the idea that only girls get to wear makeup and pretty dresses. Call it jealousy, maybe. Now I can have my cake and eat it too. I get to look like what I desire. :)

And no, I'm not the slightest bit uncomfortable being a man. I don't question my birth. I do the things society expects of males... but I refuse to accept that girly things are off-limits. What a rebel, eh?

[TxKimberly]

I suppose I would fall into such a category. I recall many nights when I was very young (5 or 6) praying when I went to ed that I would awake with a female body. As you can imagine, many nights and mornings were very disappointing! lol Of course sooner or later even children come to realize that they have to face facts and the realities of life - I was never going to wake up a girl/woman.
Now, so many years later (sigh . . .) I've a wife of 21 years that I love very dearly, two children that I adore and a third on the way, a career I love . . .
Going full time. transitioning, or SRS are not an option for me. I can still visit the female world on a fairly regular basis while still reaping the love and benefits of the life I have been blessed with.
So - what does this make me? A TS or a cross dresser? I dunno and I'm no longer willing to loose sleep contemplating it. . .

[marla01]

I Have a question!! For a man to desire to wear woman's clothes, to go out and maybe even desire to pass as a woman, Isn't that man at odds with his birth sex ?? Most men acting as men do not desire these things? The only exclusion that I can truly understand is the man who is a sexual fetishist!!! Personaly I dress as a woman because I feel like a woman, I see myself that way, but that has evolved. I desire physical changes and hormones because I am uncomfortable as a man! The only things that keep me from transitioning are my surrounding life circumstances and a whole lot of fear!!

Kelsy
I'm not sure exactly what your question was since it seemed to be more of a statement. Let me see if I can explain myself clearly:

- I dress as a woman because I am a woman.
- I'm perfectly comfortable and happy with my body as it is. My body does not define my gender.

Therefore I am not transsexual. I am transgendered (among many other labels). Please do not try to redefine transsexual to include me, the term fits very poorly.

Marla

[Sammy777]

Reading all the posts here I have come across a common factor/debate.
This is something I have though about for a while and have found the answer.

That being, is there something between a CD'er and a TS, and the answer now seems to be YES there is.

Just relaying what I have found, so don't go shooting the messenger! :D

The new term / label / ect on the block is:
"Dual Role Transvestism (http://www.google.com/webhp?rls=ig#rls=ig&hl=en&q=%22Dual+Role+Transvestism%22&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=%22Dual+Role+Transvestism%22&fp=iTMw4oYTI5A)" or DRTV [Don't blame me, I didn't make up the name]

Defined HERE (http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:rxXZaCJ4d-wJ:www.lf1.cuni.cz/zfisar/psychiatry/Paraphilias.ppt+%22Dual+Role+transvestism%22&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us) as:
* the person enjoys the experience of membership of the opposite sex through temporary wearing of clothes of the opposite sex
* there is no desire for a more permanent sex change and no sexual excitement accompanying the cross-dressing

Defined HERE (http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:uACQmy0w6tEJ:health.howstuffworks.c om/gender-reassignment.htm/printable+%22Dual+Role+Transvestism%22&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us) as:
* *Patients are diagnosed with dual-role transvestism when they have no desire for a permanent change to the opposite sex.

And finally, defined in more detail HERE (http://books.google.com/books?id=I-8qZlGIpnQC&pg=PA32&lpg=PA32&dq=%22Dual+Role+Transvestism%22&source=bl&ots=eI0-Ks_QE8&sig=wMh-r5P96ZSfbhxrknaWOgNse5g&hl=en&ei=mWPwSZNPgujIBcbs4LoM&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9) as:
* Men are said to display Dual Role Transvestism when they spend a significant portion of their life in a female role, valuing the expression of female feelings this allows. It is not sexually driven, but might have evolved from a previous fetishistic transvestism. Men displaying Dual Role Transvestism tend to dress in clothes appropriate to their age and the social setting, and sometimes to an age greater than their own.

The proportion of time spent in a female role varies between individuals, but may be over half of the available time. No matter how much time is so spent, though, the men concerned do not feel as if they are truly female. They view their male personas, and particularly their genitals, as valuable.
Dual Role Transvestism are mostly heterosexual, as are most males.


**** That is all, so to everybody, have fun chewing on this one, I know I did, lol. ****

[glynnis]

My wife simply calls me a transvestite,she actively encourages my pastime so I dont really care what I am called.:)

[sherib]

I'm getting so confused, we have enough initials now. I'm just a plain old CD. A guy that like to wear dresses. You know (KISS)

[AliceJaneInNewcastle]

We have various labels for what we are.

CD, TV .TS etc but their seems to be one missing.

NTT - Non Transitioning Transsexual

I firmly believe that there are many of us out there in the big world that are in a place between being a crossdresser and a transsexual.

I do not want to be a woman,I do not want to have surgery, but is CD'ing enough for me. The answer has to be NO.
A true transsexual is a person whose gender identity is constant and does not match the sex of their body. The diagnosis is "Gender Identity Disorder", and it is considered curable. A post-op TS is considered to be cured.

Quite simply, if you do not have GID based on your chromosomal sex, you are not TS.

Since you clearly stated that you do not want to be a woman, you aren't GID, so you aren't transsexual. Ironically, if you had said that you did want to be a woman, you would still not be a TS but more likely have a psychological condition such as borderline personality disorder. An MtF TS would say "I am a woman."

A problem in recent times has been that transvetic fetishists are calling themselves crossdressers because they don't like the stigmatised term "fetishist", leaving some real crossdressers such as you and me marginalised, denied our true label. We're seen as too serious about our crossdressing, as making too much effort, or even as "a transsexual in denial" (said to me at a support group meeting by someone who didn't really try to pass, while my wife was standing next to me).

The latest term I've see for us marginalised crossdressers is "femulators", a contraction of female emulator. I agree that the term is applicable, but I still consider myself a crossdresser.

[Patricia1]

I suppose I would fall into such a category. I recall many nights when I was very young (5 or 6) praying when I went to ed that I would awake with a female body. As you can imagine, many nights and mornings were very disappointing! lol Of course sooner or later even children come to realize that they have to face facts and the realities of life - I was never going to wake up a girl/woman.
Now, so many years later (sigh . . .) I've a wife of 21 years that I love very dearly, two children that I adore and a third on the way, a career I love . . .
Going full time. transitioning, or SRS are not an option for me. I can still visit the female world on a fairly regular basis while still reaping the love and benefits of the life I have been blessed with.
So - what does this make me? A TS or a cross dresser? I dunno and I'm no longer willing to loose sleep contemplating it. . .

Kimberley's story is mine as well, with a few more years under the bridge, but essentially the same. I can add that I know about & feel what many of you here have expressed. First, labels don't work - you know, the whole book by its cover stuff. Don't pin a tail on this donkey. Second, I'm neither here nor there, but just about every where else. I know what I'd druther but I have sense enough to know that that's one bridge too far. I'll stay on this side of the divide & dream of the promised land & imagine myself in paradise some day. Hey, a lot of metaphors, huh? Try to relax & hang on tight, it's the only reality we have.

[gwen cd]

I feel A man who wears woman's clothes is a crossdresser
A man who wants to be a woman is a T.S.

A man who wears womans clothes and acts like a woman all the time is a borderline T.S. who might in the future progress to the change

A man who wears womans clothes and acts like a woman on occation is a crossdresser.

A man who wears woman's clothing but does not act or want to be a woman is still a crossdresser.

Taking what I have layed out you come to a conclusion that if you dress and act like a woman 24/7 you lean towards the T.S scale and there for you call your self a T.S.

If you dress and act like a woman on occation or just dress like one You are a crossdresser.

Everyone is not the same, no one feels exactly like anyone else dose
We are on all different levels and this diversity could go on for about 70 different levels of T.S. and C.D.

Stick to the basics - Who you actualy are.

Please do not take offence to what I have put down but but that is the way I feel, as an Individuals that we all are.

[marla01]

A true transsexual is ....

Danger, danger Will Robinson, the word "true" is being used as an adjective!!

Just out of curiosity, what is an 'untrue' transsexual? :devil:


Quite simply, if you do not have GID based on your chromosomal sex, you are not TS.

I'm not sure this is correct. I've known a fair number of transsexuals who do not and did not seem to have GID. Actually, it is my experience that transsexuals with GID are a minority of all transsexuals (large minority, perhaps 30-40%). The majority change their sex not because they have a disorder, but instead just as part of living their lives and seeking their own life path.


An MtF TS would say "I am a woman."

This claim has always confused me for transsexuals. If the person is a woman, why do they need to change their sex? Contrariwise, if they need to change their sex, are they not saying that they somehow are not women?

In contrast, I know many M2F women who say "I am a woman", and they are women. It is obvious to anyone around them that they are women. And they have absolutely no need to change their bodies.

Marla

[Kerrylee61]

Could not have expressed it better myself.

Kerry

[Shikyo]

This claim has always confused me for transsexuals. If the person is a woman, why do they need to change their sex? Contrariwise, if they need to change their sex, are they not saying that they somehow are not women?

Marla

Because that is the way they feel. They are women, but they have a appearance of a male. The problem is that they are not mentally and physically the same sex, so they seek to transform their bodies to whatever sex they feel they are.

[vivianann]

Vickie, I know how you feel, I too feel the same way, I identify as a female, always have. However I do not want SRS, I want to live full time as a female, crossdressing is not enough for me anymore, I have called myself transgendered, but I dont know if that is a proper label, there is another one out there called transgenderist for those of us who prefer to live full time as a woman but do not want SRS. I am in the process of going full time because I am much more comfortable being a woman.

[marla01]

Because that is the way they feel. They are women, but they have a appearance of a male. The problem is that they are not mentally and physically the same sex, so they seek to transform their bodies to whatever sex they feel they are.

I'm confused here. Are you speaking about sex or gender?

Can you define to me what mental sex is? I understand the concept of gender identity and gender role, but I don't have the slightest idea what mental sex is or how it can be ascertained.

And if being a transsexual is just about desiring to change the body's sex, why do almost all transsexuals also change (or try to change) their gender role? One would think that it would be much easier to change the sex, but not change the gender role.

Marla

[karmatic1110]

And if being a transsexual is just about desiring to change the body's sex, why do almost all transsexuals also change (or try to change) their gender role? One would think that it would be much easier to change the sex, but not change the gender role.


One can still be a transsexual without taking action. I believe that people desire to change gender roles because it's either more comfortable to them, or they feel pressure to conform. I know I identify as a semi-butch lesbian and I try to just simply "be" outside of external tradition.

[Cindi Johnson]

I don’t seem to be “just a crossdresser”. I’m not like a generic CD. Clothes alone don’t do it for me. I prefer to dress and go out into the world as would any woman, and I do. Not into a nighttime world of gay bars, but into the real daylight world of restaurants, grocery stores, laundrymats, and all such mundane places. I am most at peace with the world and with myself when I’m a woman. I take a low dose of internet-purchased estrogen because it enhances my femininity, physically and mentally. I’ve had some cosmetic surgery and electrolysis. As such, I’ve probably gone too far to be a simple crossdresser.

Yet, unlike the generic TS, my penis doesn’t disgust me. I’m not attracted to men. I’ve enjoyed being a father and (while it lasted) a husband. I enjoy some masculine activities like fixing cars, but have never felt the closeness to others which all females appear to enjoy.

Yes, I’d prefer to have been born female. But I wasn’t. And now I’m stuck somewhere in the middle. From reading the posts to this site I know I am not alone in this. So, what are we???

I know, I know…, the TG community is already too fractured. The last thing we need is another category. These days I simply call myself “transgendered“, and leave it at that. But maybe that’s not enough. Maybe this “third way” needs a name. Any ideas?

Cindi


----I posted this to the TS category a week or so ago. Seems the same issue haunts the CD category. Maybe we are all a bit transsexual, whether we care to admit it or not. After all, who among us hasn't at times, upon encountering a pretty young woman, yearned to actually be her?

Cindi

[Shikyo]

I'm confused here. Are you speaking about sex or gender?

I rarely use the word gender, as I did not use in my earlier post neither. I meant the physical sex in simple words if someone has the male genitalia or female genitalia. To my knowledge gender is a more lose term, that has more to do with the social status etc.


Can you define to me what mental sex is? I understand the concept of gender identity and gender role, but I don't have the slightest idea what mental sex is or how it can be ascertained.

What I mean with mental sex is what the person thinks he/she is. Usually the mental and physical sex is the exact same a.k.a. male and male or female and female. However to transsexuals it is not the case. In their case it would be female and male or male and female. The body and the mind do not fit to each other.


And if being a transsexual is just about desiring to change the body's sex, why do almost all transsexuals also change (or try to change) their gender role? One would think that it would be much easier to change the sex, but not change the gender role.

Marla

Changing the body sex through SRS is possible nowadays. The gender role is a not a problem for a transsexual as they are behaving according to their mental sex. They do not alter the gender role at all, but they take medical steps to change their body to the right gender role. The whole problem of this is to get the physical sex to be the same as the mental, so that the physical appearance fits the gender behavior of the person.

At least this is the way I think, as a transsexuals. There might be other that think differently about this issue, but this is how I feel about this whole matter. Just ask if there's something you did not understand or juts want more information, I'll be glad to be of help.

[Juliemckay]

I tend to think of this as more of a continuim rather than which "type" you are. There are some of us who are mostly male with a "hobby" and then there are some who identify themselves as female. I think most people (not just the one who post here) are not at either end of this, rather we are at different places on the continuim and will move around according to how we feel. I also think as people progress through life, they move around on that continuim.


Myself, I feel like I am starting to drift more and more to the female side, but I'm still near the middle. I like being in both worlds and I have no need to transition to anything.

[marla01]

I rarely use the word gender, as I did not use in my earlier post neither.
I'm afraid you did. You said "They are women, but they have a appearance of a male." The term woman generally refers to a persons gender. The term male generally refers to a person's sex.


I meant the physical sex in simple words if someone has the male genitalia or female genitalia.
I'm still confused. The physical sex of M2F transsexuals generally is male, that's what the M stands for. So your corrected statement seems even more confusing.



What I mean with mental sex is what the person thinks he/she is.

The gender role is a not a problem for a transsexual as they are behaving according to their mental sex. They do not alter the gender role at all.

Again, I am confused. First, I thought the Benjamin Standards of Care center around changing gender role. The very term transition describes the process of changing gender role. Second, you seem to imply gender identity is the same as gender role, but I don't quite follow that conclusion. How can this even be true? For certainly, if identity and role are the same, the pre-op transseuxal would be totally accepted by society as a woman from the day of her birth.

And if gender identity is the same as gender role, how do you explain so many post-op transsexuals who are still men in dresses?

Marla

[Susan Watersfield]

----I posted this to the TS category a week or so ago. Seems the same issue haunts the CD category. Maybe we are all a bit transsexual, whether we care to admit it or not. After all, who among us hasn't at times, upon encountering a pretty young woman, yearned to actually be her?

Cindi

Cindi,

Thank you for adding that to the thread. It's very interesting that the same issue is being discussed in the TS area.

For myself I'm not in the same position as you, but I have come to realize lately that I have moved somewhat nearer to being TS than I originally thought. Hence my interest in this subject.

I feel it is unlikely that I will ever go down the road of SRS, or even go full time for that matter. But I know my future lies in a greater embracement of a female life than hitherto. What I am I'm no longer sure, but CD does not describe me fully enough.

Thank you to Vicky for starting this thread and to all of you who have made such interesting contributions.

Luv

Susan

[pamela_a]

I would have to repeat most of what Susan and others have said. There is a wide spectrum of varying needs and goals on which we can find ourselves. While some are perfectly satisfied with occasional dressing there are others like me who have moved closer to the TS side of the spectrum. Then there are those who have completely transitioned including SRS.

While I may never have SRS, living full time as a woman is something I'm considering doing in a few years when my son has completed school and has (hopefully) moved out on his own. With all of life's "normal" responsibilities I don't know if it's something I will ever be able to accomplish but that's currently my goal.

Whatever you want to call it will probably only generate more controversy. For me personally, the only label I would like is "a woman named Paula".

-Paula-

[Shikyo]

I'm afraid you did. You said "They are women, but they have a appearance of a male." The term woman generally refers to a persons gender. The term male generally refers to a person's sex.

According to the dictionary women (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/woman?view=uk) and gender (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/gender?view=uk). Unless I'm totally misunderstanding it, I never used the word gender in this case. Which not be surprising as in Finnish, we don't have a separate word for male and man or female and woman. So because of this it would be very easy for me to mix them up as I've never had to separate between them.



I'm still confused. The physical sex of M2F transsexuals generally is male, that's what the M stands for. So your corrected statement seems even more confusing.

Wrong. The physical sex of a male to female is always male. You are forgetting that there are also female to male transsexuals. I was speaking generally as there are two sexes there are always two options for the beginning state of the individual transsexuals hence the existence of male to female and female to male.


Again, I am confused. First, I thought the Benjamin Standards of Care center around changing gender role. The very term transition describes the process of changing gender role. Second, you seem to imply gender identity is the same as gender role, but I don't quite follow that conclusion. How can this even be true? For certainly, if identity and role are the same, the pre-op transseuxal would be totally accepted by society as a woman from the day of her birth.

I've never heard of the Benjamin Standards of Care, so I can't say anything to that unless you explain to me what it is and what you exactly mean with it.
There are many pre-op transsexuals who are living in the role of male(female to male) or female(male to female). Some of them even do this without ever having a operation on them. The public will never be able to see their genitalia.
It is impossible to know if a person is transsexual when they've just born. For some it takes years to even realize they are transsexual. It all depends on the individual character how soon they understand or accept what they are. At birth they have no other choice then to go by the physical sex. But if ones truly transsexual no matter how much they try to teach the child the behavior of their physical sex, it will not work out. The behavior will just feel wrong sooner or later.

A question for you: If you were brought up to be a girl(assuming you are male) throughout your whole childhood, would you now behave like a girl? I don't think so. I was brought up to be a boy, but I never felt comfortable in that role. It took me years to realized why it never felt comfortable, but when I realized it; it totally changed my world.


And if gender identity is the same as gender role, how do you explain so many post-op transsexuals who are still men in dresses?

Marla

I'll answer this with a question back, "Why do some girls look like men in dresses?" Seriously, you are only a man in a dress if you yourself think so.

By the way you seem to be forgetting the other side of the transsexuals, as you only refer to male to female and totally ignoring female to male. I've always spoken generally about transsexuals including both of them to the way I spoke about it as good as possible.

[Hali]

I think i have been cought in between as well, i have been trying so hard to be an "average man" i can say am largely a success as a man but it has always been difficult right from childhood.

i like feminine everything, the way their cloth are made the way femininity is viewed and expected to act/behave by humanity is the way i want to see myself behave and act am just not cut-out for the man life style its just not me am just managing to live through the days as a guy, am so tired of taking charge of situations.

I like to have my body shape as feminine as possible i like to have the hour-glass figure i dont care much about breasts but am obsessed with an hour-glass figure. This days when i see women i dont look at them with desire to really sleep with them but with the desire to be them and have them as my friends and share secrets with them and gossip with them, it has reach a stage when i see them i feel like crying cos i feel like am their little sister that has been left out of the little femme circle.

i can go on and on............but despite all those feelings am still unsure about SRS i dont even think about it main reason being fear of the unknown eg what would happen if i turn into a woman would i be happy, can i build up the right family as per marriage, who will marry me man or woman etc.

I often ask myself the question everyday "who am I, man or woman".

[AliceJaneInNewcastle]

Just out of curiosity, what is an 'untrue' transsexual? :devil:
A pseudo transsexual or secondary transsexual is a person who, as I mentioned above, has a psychological disorder such as borderline personality disorder. They do not suffer from GID, but from a disorder that, as a secondary symptom, leads them to "want to be a woman", as distinct from a primary transsexual who knows that they "are" a woman and may suffer distress from their male body.

The standards of care originally excluded secondary TSes, but later relaxed to allow them to obtain reassignment. It appears that we might be seeing the standards of care heading towards completing a full circle now, with the increasing recognition of the fact that secondary TSes are fundamentally mentally unstable and that their desire to obtain gender reassignment is a symptom of their mental illness. Conversely, GID sufferers are, by definition, mentally stable and "curable".

Regret, suicide, de-transition, prostitution and violent behaviour are statistically vastly over-represented in post-op secondary TSes but very rare in primary TSes.

Research carried out by Blanchard, Bailey and Lawrence was seen as extremely controversial. None of the researchers apparently realised that they had systematically removed primary TSes from their studies, and were actually making conclusions about all transsexuals based upon their observations of mentally unstable secondary transsexuals.

The bleeding edge of research seems to be saying that secondary transsexuals should not be allowed to obtain reassignment because it is actually damaging to them. They need to be treated for their psychological disorder(s) first, as successful treatment may eliminate the symptom of wanting reassignment. If they obtain reassignment and subsequent treatment makes them realise that it was wrong for them, the risk of suicide rises dramatically.

Do you know what drives a Borderline Personality Disorder sufferer to seek gender reassignment? BPD people see people close to them as binary "good" (like) or "bad" (hate). Most of the things that they choose to do in life are calculated to cause pain or suffering to people on their hate list. Someone on their hate list will be the most hated, and it's often a close relative such as a parent. Their desire to obtain gender reassignment is based on the fact that such an action will be devastating to the person that they most hate. It has nothing to do with their own desire to transition, and little or no consideration is given to life post-op.


I'm not sure this is correct. I've known a fair number of transsexuals who do not and did not seem to have GID. Actually, it is my experience that transsexuals with GID are a minority of all transsexuals (large minority, perhaps 30-40%). The majority change their sex not because they have a disorder, but instead just as part of living their lives and seeking their own life path.
That's fine for transitioning gender role, which is quite reversible. It is a far different story for surgical reassignment.

I know a number of people who are full-time crossdressers. They are not GID and do not consider themselves to be TS. They transition because they choose to live in a female gender role even though their gender identity is either variable or ambiguous. It almost seems to me as if you are calling these people TSes simply because they are living as the opposite gender to their chromosomal sex.


This claim has always confused me for transsexuals. If the person is a woman, why do they need to change their sex? Contrariwise, if they need to change their sex, are they not saying that they somehow are not women?

In contrast, I know many M2F women who say "I am a woman", and they are women. It is obvious to anyone around them that they are women. And they have absolutely no need to change their bodies.
Reassignment is indicated where the person suffers distress from the discernible gender of their body.

A person who does not suffer from distress from their body and is comfortable living in the gender role opposite to the discernible gender of their body obviously don't need reassignment because they are not suffering distress from it.

[marla01]

[Everyone, I hope I am not monopolizing the discussion but I am finding it interesting, tell me if I need to shut up :)]


A pseudo transsexual or secondary transsexual is a person who, as I mentioned above, has a psychological disorder such as borderline personality disorder. They do not suffer from GID, but from a disorder...

I know a number of people who are full-time crossdressers. They are not GID and do not consider themselves to be TS.

A person who does not suffer from distress from their body and is comfortable living in the gender role opposite to the discernible gender of their body obviously don't need reassignment because they are not suffering distress from it.

If I understand your above comments, you are saying a transsexual MUST have one or another form of disorder?

The interesting question then becomes: Is a person that has SRS, not because she has a disorder but instead for sane personal reasons, a transsexual?

This is not a theoretical question. My experience has shown me that a large percentage of individuals who have SRS fall in this category. I also generally find them quite different than individuals with GID or something similar.


It almost seems to me as if you are calling these people TSes simply because they are living as the opposite gender to their chromosomal sex.

:eek: Not only no, but god NO. I have been arguing the exact opposite. That individuals who some people are calling no-op transsexuals are not transsexuals at all. Transgendered or transgenderist might be good labels, m2f woman might be another good label, even something ethnic like two-spirit, but no-op transsexual is not a good label.

The reason I feel it is not a good label is close to what you are saying. Transsexual is a medical term used to describe a disorder, and these individuals typically have no disorder.

Marla

[marla01]

According to the dictionary women (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/woman?view=uk) and gender (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/gender?view=uk).

I understand this is what the dictionary says, but the dictionary was written for the general public which has no need to discern the difference between sex and gender. However, both within the transgendered community and the medical community there is such a need (as can be seen with the confusion we are having), therefore the terms male and female are typically used to describe sex, and man and woman are typically used to describe gender.



Wrong. The physical sex of a male to female is always male.

I'm not sure what you mean here. This seems to contradict your previous statement that confused me "They are women, but they have a appearance of a male."

Your current statement makes a lot more sense to me.


I've never heard of the Benjamin Standards of Care

I'm sure others are more familiar with the BSC than I am and can speak of it eloquently but basically these are the foundational standards by which the medical community in the western world defines transsexualism and treats GID. The current DSM-IV standards derive for the BSC.


There are many pre-op transsexuals who are living in the role of male(female to male) or female(male to female). Some of them even do this without ever having a operation on them.

I quite agree these people exist. I would even suggest they outnumber identified transsexuals. But why do you presume they fall under the label of transsexual? What defining characteristic of the term transsexual causes them to be included and why are they not excluded since they do not seek SRS and typically do not have GID?


A question for you: If you were brought up to be a girl(assuming you are male) throughout your whole childhood, would you now behave like a girl?

I'm not sure what 'behave like a girl' is. But there are studies that show for many males, they will continue to exhibit male behavior irrespective of the gender they are brought up in. It depends on the individual.

HOWEVER, considering who I am specifically, I would suggest that I would behave like a girl. I behave like a girl now, and I was brought up in the masculine gender role, so I assume bringing me up in the feminine gender role would not change my behavior much.

But then there is a presumption here I would question. Is being woman the same as 'behave like a girl'? There is something to this, but still I question a 1 to 1 match.



Seriously, you are only a man in a dress if you yourself think so.

I would question this statement. Society does not define gender by identity. Society defines gender based on social interaction. Therefore if an individual behaves like a man, society will treat that individual as a man irrespective of how that individual thinks of them self.


By the way you seem to be forgetting the other side of the transsexuals, as you only refer to male to female and totally ignoring female to male.

Actually, no I am not. I do try to use non-directional statements when I can however the communication would get totally jumbled if I described both directions in every one of my sentences. It's confusing enough as it is.

Marla :)

[AliceJaneInNewcastle]

If I understand your above comments, you are saying a transsexual MUST have one or another form of disorder?
Clinically, yes. Either GID or one of the unstable disorders that give rise to secondary TSism.


The interesting question then becomes: Is a person that has SRS, not because she has a disorder but instead for sane personal reasons, a transsexual?

This is not a theoretical question. My experience has shown me that a large percentage of individuals who have SRS fall in this category. I also generally find them quite different than individuals with GID or something similar.
In order to obtain GRS (formerly known as SRS), unless they use a shonky doctor, they have to have already proven that they have some degree of GID, whether by being true GID or some form of secondary (pseudo) GID arising from a psychological problem.

Persons with GID are, by definition, sane. There have been attempts to prove the exact opposite, but the statistics have proven a negative correlation between GID and the unstable disorders that give rise to secondary transsexualism, much to the disappointment of some sexologists.

If a sane person sought GRS surgery without being GID, they would be rejected as unsuitable. The sane ones who obtain surgery are GID. This can manifest as so mild that it's not seen as GID by most people but it still meets the clinical definition. Many such people will see GRS as optional. This sounds like the group that you are referring to. I know many, many such people. Some are waiting for their children to mature before even living full time, some are non-op, some are pre-op and some are post-op. In every case, they feel a compulsion to transition but their (clinically diagnosed) GID would probably not be seen as such by a lay person.

Therefore, any sane person who obtains GRS surgery is a TS who had some degree of GID but has been cured. :happy:


That individuals who some people are calling no-op transsexuals are not transsexuals at all. Transgendered or transgenderist might be good labels, m2f woman might be another good label, even something ethnic like two-spirit, but no-op transsexual is not a good label.

The reason I feel it is not a good label is close to what you are saying. Transsexual is a medical term used to describe a disorder, and these individuals typically have no disorder.
I absolutely agree with you, then. :happy: I prefer the term "full time crossdresser", which I know is used by such people that I am acquainted with. The word transsexual simply is not applicable.

One woman I know lives full time as female and does not use hormones and doesn't plan to, because she also jokingly uses the term "*******", emphasising that she remains sexually a fully functional male. I think that she plans on having breast augmentation and facial feminisation surgery, which I think puts her genuinely into a category between full-time CD and TS. I don't believe that she considers herself to be a TS, and would be offended to be called one.

Apologies for editing this in, but otherwise I'll get jumped on by a moderator for not posting both together...

The Chromosomal sex is immutable. Gender reassignment surgery will not change the sex of a person's chromosomes. This appears to be what Shikyo is saying about sex not changing.

[marla01]

Persons with GID are, by definition, sane.

Hmmm, what do we mean by sane? Certainly the term disorder when it comes to mental issues implies some form of non-sanity. In a like way, if the person is sane, should the medical community have any right to impose barriers?

But more to the point, while I can see a logic to a claim that GID does not imply non-sanity, I definitly cannot buy into the opposite claim that GID by defintion means the individual is sane. Can you point to where this claim comes from?


If a sane person sought GRS surgery without being GID, they would be rejected as unsuitable....Therefore, any sane person who obtains GRS surgery is a TS who had some degree of GID but has been cured. :happy:

In theory this is true, but note that this is true because of constraints imposed by the western medical community, it is not because it is a basic truth.

But more to the point, it doesn't happen in practice. The medical community can be easily 'gamed' or even ignored. So the reality is, people can and do have SRS who have no GID. And this is the way it should be. A person should have an absolute right to control their own body without having the medical community impose it's biases and prejudices on the individual.

Again, the key word here is 'disorder'. I think it is quite presumptuous to imply everyone who has or desires SRS has a disorder.


I absolutely agree with you, then. :happy: I prefer the term "full time crossdresser",

Why would you use the term 'crossdresser' knowing that most such individuals do not use that label, and knowing that it has many negative connotations? Isn't that rather insulting?

----

A comment on the terms SRS (sexual reassignment surgery) and GRS (gender reassignment surgery). I strongly dislike the term GRS for a couple of reasons. First, I find it hugely incorrect. SRS changes the genitals of an individual and nothing else. While one can argue this really does not change the sex, it is much closer to changing sex (since genitals are primary sexual indicators) than it is to changing gender. It does nothing to change gender.

As such, I believe the term GRS actually encourages post-op depression and even suicides when individuals discover that their gender has not changed. The term encourages a false and very disappointing expectation. I therefore connot condone such a fiction and must therefore use the term SRS.

Marla

[Shikyo]

I understand this is what the dictionary says, but the dictionary was written for the general public which has no need to discern the difference between sex and gender. However, both within the transgendered community and the medical community there is such a need (as can be seen with the confusion we are having), therefore the terms male and female are typically used to describe sex, and man and woman are typically used to describe gender.

In that case it seems to be a misunderstanding on my side as in the Finnish language there is no separating between female and woman or male and guy. Because of this my earlier sentence seems to have meant something else than I actually meant to say.


I'm not sure what you mean here. This seems to contradict your previous statement that confused me "They are women, but they have a appearance of a male."

Your current statement makes a lot more sense to me.

What I was trying to say any male to female is that unless the body will be altered in a surgical way to resemble the female genitalia therefore making the person technically female. However the with closer look it is possible still to determine that they were not burn with the sex they have. I think you can see it in the DNA, but not sure quite about that. But for sure in the chromosomes that are different to male and female but can't be altered.


I'm sure others are more familiar with the BSC than I am and can speak of it eloquently but basically these are the foundational standards by which the medical community in the western world defines transsexualism and treats GID. The current DSM-IV standards derive for the BSC.


As we both don't really know about this, I think we should drop this out of our discussion.


I quite agree these people exist. I would even suggest they outnumber identified transsexuals. But why do you presume they fall under the label of transsexual? What defining characteristic of the term transsexual causes them to be included and why are they not excluded since they do not seek SRS and typically do not have GID?

Wanting to have a SRS is not a "must" for all transsexuals, for many it is more than enough that they can live a life with the sex they want to live. Some have a need to also physically to resemble that sex. Anyone who says that they are the opposite sex, is a transsexual what steps they take to accomplish this is their own business. Being a transsexual does not even mean one has to do anything about it. They might still just continue to live their current life, despite being transsexual. Transsexualism is a state of mind and not the way how people alter their body.


I'm not sure what 'behave like a girl' is. But there are studies that show for many males, they will continue to exhibit male behavior irrespective of the gender they are brought up in. It depends on the individual.

Unless they feel that they are not male, despite of having the male genitalia. How can a person have male behavior if they don't think of themselves as male?


HOWEVER, considering who I am specifically, I would suggest that I would behave like a girl. I behave like a girl now, and I was brought up in the masculine gender role, so I assume bringing me up in the feminine gender role would not change my behavior much.

Then you should understand that despite being brought up in one gender role you might end up with behaviors from the other one.


But then there is a presumption here I would question. Is being woman the same as 'behave like a girl'? There is something to this, but still I question a 1 to 1 match.

I'm not saying that behaving like a girl equals to being one. Behavior can be learn and also faked, just look at all the actors around. But as you already yourself said, that despite you were brought up in a masculine way you've ended up with some feminine behavior. Now imagine that you are a girl, in the exact same situation including your male body and you being brought up in a masculine way. Do you think you would have felt comfortable being brought up like that? Do you think you would have had less femininity than you have now?

I know these are all assumptions, but I'm just trying to help you understand what I'm trying to say.


I would question this statement. Society does not define gender by identity. Society defines gender based on social interaction. Therefore if an individual behaves like a man, society will treat that individual as a man irrespective of how that individual thinks of them self.

Exactly, so if a person thinks they are a female when they wear a dress and behave like one, there is no reason why the society would think of that person in any other way, would there? The way one thinks has a big impact on how one behaves. The thoughts can control ones behavior rather a lot.


Actually, no I am not. I do try to use non-directional statements when I can however the communication would get totally jumbled if I described both directions in every one of my sentences. It's confusing enough as it is.

Marla :)

In that case, I guess I should try to keep it more simple as well. To make it easier to understand, for both of us.