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Melissa A.
04-23-2009, 09:05 AM
I have always considered myself a Feminist. Even in the decades leading up to my transition, I was accutely aware of male privelege and the Patriarchal oppression Western society continues to advocate. My mom was somewhat involved in the women's movement in the late 60's and early 70's, albeit periphirally, and I would often read her copies of Ms. that were laying around the house. But being a biological male, and sometimes one who tried too hard to hang on to that role, I can't say that I was ever thoroughly educated in feminist theory. I never read "The Feminine Mystique". I never studied Women's studies in college. I am only just beginning to grasp and understand the concepts of Gender Constructs, Essentialism vs. socialization, how they are related, and the true differences between sex and gender, which can get pretty complicated.

I know quite a few gay and lesbian people, and while I've always been aware of the history of the relationships between GLB and T people, and some of the divides that exist, I never thought of it as a major issue. After all, All the GLB people I know are quite nice to me, at least when I'm around. I've never been barred from a women's restroom in a gay space, and all of my experiences regarding lesbians and feminists has been pretty positive. Even my therapist, who is lesbian, is a veteran of the Radical Feminist movement, and she herself is an advocate and an activist for transpeople. My life and transition itself, even, has undergone a slow transformation from dress-wearing crossdresser to an often tomboy-dressing woman who considers her femininity more of an inward expression, not a matter of what you wear, or how well you present yourself as "girlie", and this happened rather unconsciously, over time.

Since reading Julia Serano's "Whipping Girl" (absolutely groundbreaking, in my opinion), I've become a little more conscious of all this, and have been a little more forceful in declaring my feminism, from confronting men who want to get to know me better for all the wrong reasons, to being more vocal about the treatment of women, even the cruel jokes I hear from men at work. I read her chapters on the divide between the Radical Feminist world and transsexuals, and have read on the internet all about the theories and rants of Janice Raymond, Germaine Greer, and Julie Bittner. But I thought, "it can't be that bad, can it? I'm a feminist, they're feminists. There must be some common ground, and room for agreement".

Boy, was I wrong.

I went to the disscussion forum at the Michigan Women's Music Festival Site, an event held every summer, a "womyn-born-womyn only" event. I really didnt go there to argue. Really just to look around, and maybe learn something. I thought it would be interesting. When I got to the section on gender expression and Politics, I proceeded to read, for the next few hours, dozens and dozens and dozens of posts full of abject hate, venom, and vitriol directed at transwomen. This stuff was so nasty I was shocked to the point of being speechless. Then I got angry. That's when the arguing started. I hastilly wrote a post scolding the rigid and closed-minded thinking these women were expressing. It didnt take long before I was attacked repeatedly, for "invading their space" and just by my very existence, co-opting and appropriating woman's identities. It didnt get any better once I made it clear I was trying to understand their stance on Michigan. I was still "Mentally ill". "Completely deluded" . Called "dude" and "Mr. guy" repeatedly. Funny, they can be as nasty as they want to to me, but I stand up for myself, and it's clear that my expression "only proves that I'm a pushy male afflicted with feelings of male privelege". Nothing, NOTHING I said was believed, or taken seriously in any way, from the smallest comment, to the most important. I was told that I am involved in just another form of gender constructs that kill, maim and oppress women. That I am ill. that I'm nothing more than a gynophile. There is no middle ground to these people, and they really think the tide is turning in their favor, and that "So called transsexual men"(their term, not mine) have overplayed their hand and are due for a major backlash.

I had to give up, which I do not like doing. But The whole thing became an exercise in total futility. The atitudes I ran into are, to me, far worse than the uneducated, bigoted ones I run into out in the world. And far more hurtful. They are, at all cost to logic, common sense, and in my opinion, decency and any sembelence of empathy, embracing the worst, most trans-mysoginistic, and badly done reasearch on transsexualism ever done, simply because it fits their rigid and limited view of feminism. Of course, when I say that, I'm once again, just showing my male ignorance and feelings of entitlement. There is no winning with these people. The only thing that gives me solace over this is that I know most of the Feminist world, lesbian world, or combination thereof, do not feel this way, or condone this kind of hate and rigidity. Otherwise, it was a very hurtful experience. I really, really wish all of this wasn't so. I think we can all do better. But my words fell on deaf ears.

Anyway, I got out with my womanhood intact. a little scarred, and perhaps a little wiser.

Hugs,

Melissa :)

LisaM
04-23-2009, 09:23 AM
After reading your post I went to the forum on the Michigan Women's Festival site. I couldn't believe what I was reading so I just left. I think we could have a better dialogue with non-accepting religious conservatives.

Byanca
04-23-2009, 09:59 AM
Why do they behave like this? Do they not understand that the society works in a dualistic way. Just look at the driver license. You belong to one group or the other. It is as simple as that. One can look at one self as in the middle, but in reality that is the same as saying-screw society, and go into the woods and die alone. And that is not the point of having a society. Well, I dont agree with how it is organized, but that is the way it is, so we, all of us just have to deal with it.

Kaitlyn Michele
04-23-2009, 10:10 AM
Mel A, as i mentioned before I loved that book too, very thoughtful and also well researched...I think of myself differently (much better) than before...

I have tended my whole life to shy away from arguments...i do not know whether the feeling of being myself will create a more aggressive and/or self confident personality...so kudos to you for walking into the lions den..

i have seen this hatred at lesbian bars i've been to, we just hang out in the corner, get stared at, commented on, and every once in a while, a woman comes over to talk to us....BTW, this never happens at gay bars, and at straight places I am either read (and I've never ever been disrespected) or I slip by....the gay guys are almost always a blast...

as i've gone more often to one place, to be fair, the stance has softened as they've noticed that i'm not screaming obscenities or trying to pick them up...in fact, last xmas break, i had a funny thing happen and i got served quickly at the lesbian bar.....across the way a woman said why are you serving that he/she thing before me ( i have only been called that to my face by a woman, btw), and the bartender said "because she tips better than you"...:drink:

As far as the "wymyn born wymyn" crowd, I don't need their acceptance, and by their own actions, they'll never get what they want anyway (which is what really?- they are sexist and exclusive - so what, gosh bless'em).....they are self deluding fools wasting their time excluding tg folk and listening to crappy music (heh-ok its not all crappy that was a joke:D)

Karen564
04-23-2009, 02:36 PM
I just did a LOT of reading over there on a few different forum subjects ...And yeah, I was a bit upset by how THEY view us, but I just saw it as total ignorance on their part, and their just comming off as bully's, but I also had to take into account that it's only a handful of bigots posting their ignorant beliefs on there...and from what I saw, sadly very few MTF TS joined in to do battle so to speak to say otherwise...and the ones I did see, didn't really get any point across from my viewpoint..but because of the so few TS in there, whoever did posts was like fallen prey for a pack of wolves....
Personally, I saw many posts in there that I could bast out of the water using their own words...
And apparently to this very small radical group of so called women, and I call them "so called woman", because they came off & sounded more like men than anything, but it also seems that to them, a woman is defined more by whats between their legs and not what's between their ears..

And I saw some other topics regarding the whole admission policy thing regarding MTF/TS... But again, I saw the same extremists bully's put their :2c: into the discussion speaking as if they where running the show and speaking as if they had some kind of official capacity to do so, which I know they didn't..but obviously the forum administrator, whoever that is, is showing a blind eye on the matter letting them get away with it.. so shame on them.. But in a small way, I can understand why too...

But in all that, I didn't see one good rebuttal by a MTF/TS stating why they have just as much right to be there just as any other woman...
Since they overlook the fact that a Butch female or a FTM in transition is acceptable to their Born as Women standards, regardless they may have always identified themselves as males & think like males..and have had no desire to ever act or think as woman..
So to me, the so called policy contradicts itself...because for me as a MTF/TS, I have always thought of myself as, Born as a Woman and embraced femininity in my heart & soul.. regardless of the genitalia birth defect I was born with..

Now I'm contemplating on joining in on some of these posts, just for a little fun and make a point or two, and yeah, stir the pot a bit...:tongueout

As an example, I'll start off and say , Hi everyone, Yes, I'm a MTF/TS and I'm going, I hope I can met all of you gals & enjoy the day together...:heehee:


Whatcha think, worth it?? :D

Melissa A.
04-23-2009, 08:28 PM
Thanks for listening to me vent, girls. I appreciate it. Sure, Karen. Go for it. Anything that ruffles their feathers is fine by me. My therapist, who I mentioned in my post, used to go to Michigan every year. I really could relate with the nostalgia and emotion with which she talked about thousands of women together in a safe women's only space, able to be themselves. She added that not only should transwomen be given the opportunity to be a part of that, but have been getting in for a long time, especially post-ops. She was part of the radical feminist movement back in the day, and says these people are seperatists and sexist, and she will not allow them to define the word feminist for her. Good to hear.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

Miranda09
04-23-2009, 09:55 PM
After reading your post I went to the forum on the Michigan Women's Festival site. I couldn't believe what I was reading so I just left. I think we could have a better dialogue with non-accepting religious conservatives.


Personally, I'm tired of having to pander to these non-accepting religious conservatives. They've been pandered to for the last 20 years. I think the ride is over.

kellycan27
04-23-2009, 10:17 PM
What did you expect? Even a GG who doesn't perscribe to radical feminist ideals is going to feel the wrath. Just let a GM in here and let him start talking anti-cd
May just start a new movement.. Radical Crossdressers.

LisaM
04-24-2009, 09:48 AM
Miranda,

I didn't mean that we should pander to religious conservatives. I just meant we may have a better chance with them than with radical fems at the Michigan festival.

Zenith
04-24-2009, 11:10 AM
Hmmmm....if I have some time I'll try and have a look see for myself...group intolerance of others is never a good thing no matter how closely one identifies with that group...

As a trans person I wish that religious conservatives would realize the hurt they cause us and loving others (even sinners) is fundamental to the teachings of Christ...but I don't hate them as a group and I recognize their right to exist...

Wish it was the case here with the rad-fem people acknowledging our existence ...please don't tell me the saying "even a broken clock is right once a day" is true with Rush Limbaugh and his label "Femine-N***s
:straightface:

marla01
04-24-2009, 04:32 PM
I wear a necklace purchased at the Michagan Womyns Festival as a little bit of personal 'in your face' to the Festival.

I would point out to everyone Camp Trans that is held down the road from the Festival (http://www.camp-trans.org/)

Marla

Miranda09
04-24-2009, 05:43 PM
Miranda,

I didn't mean that we should pander to religious conservatives. I just meant we may have a better chance with them than with radical fems at the Michigan festival.

Lisa, I know you didn't mean it that way. I guess I just got on my hi horse about the religious conservatives. :)

LisaM
04-24-2009, 07:43 PM
Miranda,

I'm glad you understood.