T girl Snobbishness?

[Kelli Michelle]

Lorileah, on another thread made the statement,

"On that note, I have not been to the local T-bars for awhile. One reason was that I felt like I was in enemy territory. I try to look good when I dress. I am not always successful and often feel like I fail but in a public place where there are a lot of "T-girls" I get the cold shoulder and the look down the nose."

I hadn't thought about that type of thing for a while, but I was reminded because of Lorileah's post and my own experience last night.

I am away on business, in Austin, and decided to go out to a local tg friendly bar downtown. I saw a couple of tgirls, but we all sorta were like ships in the night and they had people with them. Then I saw two other girls, one of which, seemed to be on a date. She was very attractive, dressed very sexy, but not too much. Anyway, I was at the bar getting a drink, and she looked me over, and just gave me a sorta dismissive look, almost derisive in a way. A couple of minutes later, she glanced my way again, and did it again.

Now I don't let things like that bother me (and it IS possible I misread her), but I was just really disappointed in her supposed attitude. I had seen that kinda thing before, usually with girls that are "further along the path than me", but I don't get it. Don't they remember where they came from?

I know in Austin and San Antonio, where I live, I have met many tg people that are great to be with, but this......

Anybody else have similar experiences? Has it thrown you off going out?

[Kathi Lake]

Oh yeah. I went to Diva's in SanFran a few months ago. You know what? I'll say it. I was looking good. :) Some of the T-girls in there were, shall we say, "working girls" and gave me some pretty ugly looks. Those looks I was getting I translated to mean "Uh UH, sister! Don't you dare move in on my guy!"

Of course, it could have been simply that I wasn't looking as good as I thought I was and the looks were those of pity. :)

Kathi

[TxKimberly]

Where did you go out? I hate the thought that you came to Austin and were treated with less than hospitality. The only time I recall seeing someone dismissed in such a fashion there was when he (it was a gay male, not TG) walked in wearing nothing but leather chaps, and with a collar and leash being held by his lover apparently. They didn't get a terribly warm welcome.

[Marilynn]

Bars are not the best place to look for "sisterhood," I suspect. You'll see the same behavior by girls in bars all the time.

[charlie]

At several of the TG/gay bars t-girls go there to pick up guys. If you look hot and they think you could be competition, then you can get the attitude thing. If the professional girls know you are not out looking to take their dates then they can be quite friendly.

[Nicole Erin]

I am shocked that people would suggest that TG women are bitches.
If you would just get to know some in real life, you will find this is only 50% true.:brolleyes:

[TGMarla]

Kimberly....you hang in some really wild bars.

:D

Anyhoo, I really haven't been out to any TG friendly bars. In fact, I don't even know if there is one where I live. Bummer, huh? But it's really too bad that a fellow t-chick would treat anyone like that. What makes her ...uhh....crud not stink? I'd like to think that I'd encourage just about anyone with the guts to get out there in front of people. I think everybody should.

[Angie G]

Well there are alway some who think they are better then others. yYou just keep being your sweet self hun.:hugs:
Angie

[Gabrielle Hermosa]

Anybody else have similar experiences? Has it thrown you off going out?

I think it exists as much as real girls seem to have an attitude about who is hotter. We've all seen a gg become upset in the presence of another attractive woman who may be dressed sexier than she is. I dated a girl who believed that EVERY hot chick was a "s|ut". She was an extreme case, but you get the point.

I know how jealous I get when I see all the other WAY more attractive t-girls online. I don't hate them because of it though - just wish I could look as good. I think some do feel threatened by other good looking t-girls. I also think some are down right snobbish to those who are "not up to their level of attractiveness".

Although I have never been out en femme, I've experienced this to some extent online personally, in my communications with others. I guess it is to be expected. Human nature, perhaps... at least in some.

[Sandra]

Yep I've noticed this.

A few years ago we went away for the weekend to an annual event for TGs and parnters were welcomed to.

Not only did Nigella get the look down the nose but I did as well, why I don't know, this also happened even if we said "hello", the feeling I got was that some of them thought they were better than us.

Don't let it bother you, if they want to be like that then so be it.

[erickka]

That kind of behavior is exactly why neither my wife or I patronize any bars. Some of the people always seem to have some kind of corn cob stuck where the sun don't shine. It makes for a less than enjoyable evening.

[Teri Jean]

It could be as simple as you looked better than they did. LOL This happens with GGs all the time.

Keli

[karynspanties]

I have been to GiGi's in Detroit about a dozen times over the years. I have had that happen to me maybe three times. Mostly the gay males snub their noses. Which is fine, I am not there for the gay males, I am there to be with my sisters. But overall, I was welcomed and introduced around. It really does not matter where you go, there will aleays be those few out there that think that they are better than you. It's just the way it is. Ignore those individuals and socialize with the ones that are friendly and you will be fine.

[Desiree2bababe]

Back in the day, yes. Jeoslousy is rapant among the queens. Did it stop me, heck no. Made me strut my stuff even more........

[cindym5_04]

I have been to GiGi's in Detroit about a dozen times over the years. I have had that happen to me maybe three times. Mostly the gay males snub their noses. Which is fine, I am not there for the gay males, I am there to be with my sisters. But overall, I was welcomed and introduced around. It really does not matter where you go, there will aleays be those few out there that think that they are better than you. It's just the way it is. Ignore those individuals and socialize with the ones that are friendly and you will be fine.

I think that's the name of the bar I went to a few years back when I went to Detroit!! (I went to see the Eminem concert at Ford Field) That place was pretty fun. It's one of the very very few times in my life that I actually got drunk- needed to because of the girl that I was there with. The alcohol made it better.

Anyway, as far as the t-girls snobby thing, I've witnessed this on more than one occasion. I've had this happen at bars before by "enhanced" tgirls. It's also happened online when I've made mention that I'm not on hormones and don't plan to transition. Somehow I guess that makes me less of a person.

The flipside to that is that other cd's/tv's or shall we say non-hormone/non-enhanced girls and genetic girls, I've never been treated that way.

I'm not going to classify and say the word "all" about any of the groups, because I do believe it's a person-by-person basis. That's just been my experiences though. And thanks Karen, you made me miss Detroit. Although I was only there for 2 1/2 days, it's someplace that I can say (and go ahead and laugh) that I was honestly truly comfortable at. I know people say a lot of bad things about Detroit, but I found everyone to be quite friendly up there - whether I was in drab or drag.

[MJ]

Yep I've noticed this.
the feeling I got was that some of them thought they were better than us.
Don't let it bother you, if they want to be like that then so be it.

it is true that some t-girls think there shit don't stink and that they are better then everyone else.

the same can be said regarding gg's as well .

you will fine they have never been married or have kids and therefore the world revolves around them.

i have noticed that those of us who are or have been married and have children are more down to earth and more tolerant of others

[Sandra]

you will fine they have never been married or have kids and therefore the world revolves around them.

Yep noticed that as well. :doh:



i have noticed that those of us who are or have been married and have children are more down to earth and more tolerant of others


Noticed that as well and, may I say some of the older ladies where more forth coming.

[Kate Simmons]

Yeah, I ran into a couple of (not sure what they were really) Miss Gay whatever's and former Miss Gay whatever's.They are gay guys who get their title by dressing as women. When I complimented them on their outfits, they looked at me like I was some kind of bag lady. When I complimented one on her crown, she said to me very sarcastically: "It's a tiara." My friend had to hold me back as I wanted to show her exactly what she could do with her "tiara". Usually snobs are not worth the effort but it got my goat that night.

[LisaM]

Kelli,

I have run into the same thing a number of times but for a number of reasons it doesn't really bother me.
First, I am 51 now and I haven't been able to compete with the younger girls for quite a while.
Second, I feel good about what I've accomplished in my life so I try not to let snobbishness bother me in any aspect of my life. I've worked hard, lived well, have a great relationship with my spouse, raised a family. I just brush off any snobbishness as a lack of intellectual curiousity.
Lastly, I realize that sometimes what I think is snobbishness is nothing more than insecurity and I try not to make judgments on people until after I get to know them.

[Kelli Michelle]

I was in Charlie's bar on Lavacca. I was there to play in a pool tournament, but alas, got there too late. I wasn't and usually don't go to look for "sisters" but just to enjoy myself. I love going to "'Bout Time" (and know a few people there) and this was their sister bar. Normally, 95% of the time there are never any issues. This was only the 2nd time this has happened when I have been in Austin. It wasn't an issue for me really, I didn't let it ruin my evening. I guess t-girls can be just as "catty" as real girls.

[msginaadoll]

I go to Rainbow Room as well as Gigis in Detroit. Initially I thought so many of the girls there were stuck up. Noone really talked to me and people ignored me. What I came to realize at least for me was that being nervous, I put off an air of being unapproachable and even stuck up. When I decided to come out of my shell I realized how friendly so many of the ladies actually were. I would just walk over and say hi. Latter when talking about it one girl even said that initially she thought i was full of myself. My nervousness was a lot to do with seeing all the lovely ladies there and feeling like I didnt fit in. I was the ugly step sister. Took a while to realize that it wasnt a competition. When I started feeling more sure of myself people were a lot more friendlier and so was I. Since my start I have talked to the Divas at the bars and found most of them really great people.

[Kelli Michelle]

I go to Rainbow Room as well as Gigis in Detroit. Initially I thought so many of the girls there were stuck up. Noone really talked to me and people ignored me. What I came to realize at least for me was that being nervous, I put off an air of being unapproachable and even stuck up. When I decided to come out of my shell I realized how friendly so many of the ladies actually were. I would just walk over and say hi. Latter when talking about it one girl even said that initially she thought i was full of myself. My nervousness was a lot to do with seeing all the lovely ladies there and feeling like I didnt fit in. I was the ugly step sister. Took a while to realize that it wasnt a competition. When I started feeling more sure of myself people were a lot more friendlier and so was I. Since my start I have talked to the Divas at the bars and found most of them really great people.

I think there is a lot of truth in what you said. I am not nervous at all (now anyway), but sometimes I know I look aloof, when I am just busy looking around. So, of course, they may have misread me. But, I definitely didn't look down my nose at her---not one bit. I wanted to smile at her, but not with that look she was giving me----lol.

BTW she was very attractive, and while I do think I looked pretty damn good myself, I don't think she had to worry about who looked better. But you know how insecure we can all be!!!!!

Frankly, I have never felt in competition with anyone else, honestly. I have too many things to worry about: does my makeup look good, is my skirt too short, why did I wear the heels with the scuff marks, did I forget my wallet (again)? I just want to look the best I can look. I actually like hanging out with passable cders, as much as I do with anyone, cause I figure, I can definitely find something to help me look better.

[Genifer Teal]

Some of the T-girls in there were, shall we say, "working girls" and gave me some pretty ugly looks.
Kathi

This is probably the reason. They feel you are either trying to move in on their business or likely to give it away for free. By that I mean we (CDers) are not looking to sell our services but might like attention from a man and maybe even a date. Simply by being there, you are interfere with their business. Be careful of compliments too in this situation. They will compliment a bad look so they always look better. IMHO, unless you have services to offer, I'd stay away from those places. Don't judge all T girls by this behavior. All girls can be katty at times. This is different.

Gen

[Nicki B]

Given the rest of humanity manages to exhibit the behaviour, why should T-people be any different? :strugglin


But I know of at least two long standing feuds, based on someone thinking they'd been 'cut' or ignored, which were really due to sight or hearing problems which weren't immediately obvious?

I think there is a lot of general insecurity in this community that can lead to reading things as slights, when they're not intended as such..


And I know far too many girls who refuse to wear their glasses when out dressed.. :rofl:

[Katheryn]

I had seen that kinda thing before, usually with girls that are "further along the path than me", but I don't get it.

GRRRRRRR! This has always been one of my biggest bustle burners.... let me point out exactly what toasts my tush:

"further along THE path"

Like there's only one path. If you're a born male and you put on a skirt, eventually you're going to want to have breasts, whack of the bits and live as a woman. And until you do, you're a gutless wannabee.

I'm sorry, but I do not hate my male half at all, I don't want to exorcise him from my existance. I am quite happy just dressing up now and then and maybe going out to dinner or to a friend or my sister's house. Or just wearing elements of femme attire. Even just looking down and seeing my pretty painted toes.

Everyone is on a different path, it's not one road. We glimpse each other through the trees as we walk our paths, they sometimes parallel each other for awhile, but we're hardly ever actually treading in another's footsteps.

Okay, I'll get off the soapbox for now, be well.


Kate

[kellycan27]

Some of the transexual people I know do express an attitude with regards to crossdressers. Sort of the same way some here have expressed the way that they feel that society sees them as gay,or perverts etc. Just as some
crossdressers try and distance themselves from that kind of pidgeon holing, some transexual people try and distance themselves from crossdressers in much the same way. They don't want to be looked at as just some wierd man in a dress. To me it's a moot point. Although as A TS person I see things that I have in common with crossdressers I don't see any competition as many here have pointed out they are on completely different paths than I am. I find the "catty" remarks (on both sides) rather humorous. petty and bitchy ,if you will. As a young person starting out, this kind of backbiting, and name calling gives me reason for pause. Are these the same mature adults that dispense advice to those of us seeking information and knowlege about this trip that we are on? And maybe the next time you are sitting there wondering why society treats you and talks about you in a less than favorable way...you might remember that you do the same to others... people who live in glass house and all.

[Nicki B]

I find the "catty" remarks (on both sides) rather humorous. petty and bitchy ,if you will.

Personally, I find them sad - and destructive. :sad:

[LA CINDY LOVE]

Hey now lets be cool with this and not slam all the T girls just because we have a few who look down on us because we are crossdressers, Cindy has had her share of the look down.....and they came from a working girls club in Los Angeles, call Peanuts and when you go to a club like this they take no prisoners.

I had one girl grab my brest...I thought she was coming on to me but was told that it was a put down, but I would see some of these T girls at the Lodge (before it close) a none working girls club and got to meet some of them and found out that most of them are very friendly and nice but there are a few who are not so friendly and nice.

I ask some of the T girls how they feel about crossdressers they said we all were crossdressers before we were Tgirls....but we do have this feeling that we are one up on Cd's so I ask why you feel that way, they said most Cd's can not pass and they pointed to a few in the club, they are just happy wearing woman clothing the others need some work.

But you do have very few Cd's that can pass like T girls first they have a feminine look they can dress good they get the right wig and they know how to do make up......they make it look so easy.......sometimes we T girls say thats not fare.

They also said that some of us Cd's are very rude to the t girls also calling them nasty names and grabbing them and Cindy has seen that also, but for the most part I feel that we get along very good......all we got is each other.

LA CINDY LOVE

[cd_britney_426]

Having been to a TG type of club myself for a number of occasions, I can share a few experiences here. Although this was in Phoenix I assume the rules apply elsewhere. First, TG or not we still have gender roles in society as sad as that may seem. I started going to this club as a male and noticed how the T-girls were always quite nice to me including even the ones who I didn't even know (first timers, etc.). The men on the other hand tended to either avoid me or would try to get in my business (i.e. are you leaving with so-and-so) or otherwise try to subtly interfere with my conversations I was having with TGs. The first few times I went out as female, it was generally accepted quite well by both parties. Unfortunately, as time went on the roles reversed. Now, that I exclusively appear as female when going to this club, the men will tend to pay a whole lot of attention to me (sometimes more attention than I care for) whereas a lot of the same t-girls who used to be friendly now are quite hostile, won't talk to me, and in some cases won't make eye contact. The reason for this is obvious: gender roles. When I appear as male, I am competition against the guys for who is going to get to leave with the girl (t-girl). Now that I am the t-girl I am competing with them for the guys. This is not how I think of it but it is clearly how they perceive it.

The second part of it is some of these girls are prostitutes and some of the men are clients or potential clients. I would be a bit cautious for anyone running into this. Likewise, I believe in standing up for your rights. I go out for the purpose of enjoying myself, meeting up with friends, and I consider leaving with a date simply to be an added bonus which does happen occasionally. However, I don't go out expecting a date or really expecting anything for that matter. That being said, prostitution is against the law. My political views on the matter don't really make a difference here because I am not on some mission to support them or stop them. Regardless, they are breaking the law and I am not. These girls bring crime to the club. Not only are they breaking the law, as long as the bar tolerates these people working in the club, it encourages more of these working girls to come there, and of course more clients until the whole club is one big shelter for prostitution (until the authorities close it down of course). This results in other crimes such as fighting over clients and money, drug dealing, and could ultimately lead up to gang troubles.

If the main problem at a club is the prostitution, you may wish to weigh out whether it is worth your enjoyment and safety to continue there. If not, I would report them to the authorities as well. If so, you will have to stand tall and not allow yourself to be intimidated by them. Some working girls can be fairly normal (I mean they are people like the rest of us) but simply choose your friends and your battles wisely. Just as I don't allow people to interfere with my business, I wouldn't interfere with theirs. If they cause trouble, simply be wise in handling it. Don't do something that will cause you to be a victim of violence or end up in prison yourself. Again, you are law-abiding and they are not and if the bar management continues to be soft on this stuff then they are also breaking the law. It really surprises me how more of these establishments are not shut down and why criminal behavior seems to be coddled at the expense of those of us who actually spend money and don't cause trouble.

Last but not least, if your concern is simply over the snobbishness related to mere gender roles (i.e. you are seen as competition), then you will have to learn to be a bit snobbish yourself. I don't like being that way myself but I realize that sometimes you have to be. This is the real world. Not everyone wants to associate with you and likewise you are not going to want to associate with everyone else. If someone gives me dirty looks, fine, I don't have to associate with then nor do I want to. I believe that a first time in any club will be a bit of a shock because nobody knows you. I've always found you have to break your way in slowly. The more familiar of a face you are, the more you are likely to be accepted. It would be nice if in the world everybody loved everybody but that isn't reality. Besides, I believe quality is better than quantity. Let them be snobs as it may be better that in time you meet one or two really good friends who are worth far more than the 200 snobs combined. Good luck. :) Britney

[Ellie]

Funny thing you mention it... I was in San Antonio for a business meeting some time back, went to the little group of 4 clubs on main and got much the same response. It wasn't t-girl night so there weren't many in the clubs. I was in drab and couple t-girls and I were chatting but after admitting that I dress they suddenly got cold and one even stuck her tongue out at me. Guess I just wasn't their cup-o-tea.

[Katheryn]

When I posted my reply about how the T-girl attitude of superiority bothered me, I was not speaking primarily of attitude encountered at clubs. Before the web I posted often on newsgroups, some of which were CD in name, but many posters were TS.

Now obviously you can't paint the entirety of any group with the same brush, so it's not TS's in general of whom I speak, merely the ones who look down on CD's. It seemed as though, in the CD newsgroups, the ones who flamed a given CD post the most were TS's, not so much other CD's. The prevailing attitude seemed to be "You haven't gone through what I have so you have no clue." sort of thing. Mostly when discussing passing, etc. The general attitude of superiority was quite grating.

Seems odd to me, because the world at large can't tell a "read" CD from a "read" TS. Unless you pass, the attitudes are the same from society to a TS or CD. To me, that means that we face much the same problems in that area. No, not all areas, but there are many that are the same. But the attitude was so often "You have no idea....." that it stopped me from posting on those groups.

Yes, someone transitioning has those sorts of "society vs. us" problems 24 hours a day, where a CD faces them only when dressed and out of their own house, as the rest of the time the CD is male or not under societal scrutiny. A TS has to pass at work, when grocery shopping, when being stopped by the police, etc. A CD, en drab, doesn't, as there is no difference between a drab dressed CD and a male, to society's eyes. But a dressed CD and a TS face the exact same issues out and about. Possibly even more so, as most CD's don't wish to have it known to their boss, fellow employees, friends and family unaware of the dressing, and so on that they dress.

I don't wish to seem to exclude F2M's, even though this is the M2F forum, but, after all, a woman in slacks, loafers, a male golf shirt, short hair and no makeup won't get a second look from most of society, yet a male in a dress, read as such, will just about draw crowds of rock throwers.

Kate

[Genifer Teal]

It comes back to the lowest common denominator factor. Simply put, we make them look bad.

Gen

[Mirani]

Some of my best friends are TS!

In all societies there are those who believe there is a pecking order - this is not just a Trans issue.

I am uncomfortable at the potential for TS bashing here. Ths TS Girls in clubs are NOT representative of TS as a community. The TS seemingly being referred to in this thread would appear to be "Scene" girls. There are many TS women who are NOTHING like the club scene clientel.

I have always believed that anyone who is dissmissive, rude, arrogant or superior - when they speak meanly to me or brhave badly towards me, they reveal more about themselves that about me!

[Sophie A Walker]

I can never stop myself thinking that Snobishness always reveals the insecurities of the snob.

I couldn't put my hand on my heart and say I have never thought I was better than someone else, or at least hoped I was.

It might sound wierd but I always get an image in my mind of a snob stuck in an Escher engraving, trying to look down on someone only to find they were beneath them all the time, and worse still it was themselves.

[cd_britney_426]

Sadly, I have also noticed a "pecking order" in bars as well and I think this is just an example of how far behind our society still is. I have seen how the TSs, CDs, and DQs all think they are better than the other two groups. Not to metion one group can't understand why the other groups do what they do. Then they mix sexual orientation into it. Some T-girls then can't understand why the other t-girls don't have the same gender preferences as they do. It doesn't stop there either. Then throw race/ethnicity into the mix. I have received a lot of negative attitudes due to the fact that I have frequently dated outside of my race. I have heard all of the stereotypes and seen arguments among different ethnicities over which race is more preferred/attractive, etc. It goes on and on. No matter what the category is, it seems people will always try to find one way or another they are superior to someone else. It is sad but it goes to show you how behind our society still is.

As to general snobbishness, I have found I have been received even better at an upscale gay/lesbian club where there is also even more snobbishness than the usual TG-friendly bar I go to. My theory on this is because even though this other club is a lot more upscale and snobbish, there are very few TG people there. With the exception of the drag queen performers, there have been a number of times I was the only CD present there. Everyone else present was clearly cis-gendered. So being the only trans, I had no one to compete with except myself. I'm sure if a flock of other trans people started coming, we would be back to square one again. :straightface: Britney

[Karen564]

Some of my best friends are TS!

In all societies there are those who believe there is a pecking order - this is not just a Trans issue.

I am uncomfortable at the potential for TS bashing here. Ths TS Girls in clubs are NOT representative of TS as a community. The TS seemingly being referred to in this thread would appear to be "Scene" girls. There are many TS women who are NOTHING like the club scene clientel.
!

I couldn't agree more with what you said....And I'm one TS that never looked down on Anyone before in my life!!!!..Anytime or Anywhere.....but I have certainly been looked down upon by others...and they weren't TS...


potential for TS bashing here

Unfortunately It looks like it already happened...What a shame..:sad::sad:

[Fab Karen]

Some of my best friends are TS!

In all societies there are those who believe there is a pecking order - this is not just a Trans issue.

I am uncomfortable at the potential for TS bashing here. Ths TS Girls in clubs are NOT representative of TS as a community. The TS seemingly being referred to in this thread would appear to be "Scene" girls. There are many TS women who are NOTHING like the club scene clientel.

I have always believed that anyone who is dissmissive, rude, arrogant or superior - when they speak meanly to me or behave badly towards me, they reveal more about themselves than about me!

Quite true. Also, not all TS's or CD's in clubs ( or elsewhere ) are rude jerks. People are individuals.

[Lisa Golightly]

See it's on days like this I shake my head and I think why do I bother!?! A specific point is slowly being warped for a general poke. I've been on other forums and seen a CD/TS divide grow till it yawns like a chasm. Hmmmmmm... I often feel I shouldn't post on 'your' threads because I feel like I'm viewed as an outsider even though I lived as a CD for 21 years.

Equally I'm not a GG so my natural female nature finds itself thwarted when faced with questions from CD's I could answer but as I'm not tagged GG I can't... No-one seems to care for a TS opinion... lol... So I've ended up hanging with the TS girls more and more... and the girls on this site are lovely. A more wonderful group you couldn't meet.

Please try not to alienate them with threads like these... I know I'm becoming increasingly frustrated and unlike my friend Kelly above I'll not stand and fight... I'll just walk.

Lisa x

[marla01]

This divide (or attempt to create divide) is nothing new. I can go back to old articles I wrote 15 years ago on the subject.

I have my own theory as to why it is there. I would suggest that it comes from insecurity. The insecurity of the transsexual in her decision to get SRS. The insecurity of the crossdresser in her decision to even dress. The insecurity of the transgenderist, the drag queen, the bigendered, the gender queer, the transman, the butch dyke, the no-op, the epicene, the two spirit, and all the other rich flavors of transgenderism.

The problem is that the insecure individual sees the existence of other gender options is a threat to their own decisions (which is also why you see some argue they had no choice). This threat of options and other choices can be removed by denigrating and trivializing those other options. The threat is removed by declaring the other options do not exist because they are somehow totally different.

So I would suggest the attempts at denigration and division comes not from a desire to put down others, but instead a desire to find security in ones own decisions.

Marla

[LisaM]

Great post, Marla!

[kathrynjanos]

I wonder if perhaps we're just too sensitive to it? I mean, I've seen it and wondered the same thing myself, frequently even. I mean, try friending some of the people on MySpace (for whatever kind of cesspool that place is). But I wonder if we're just too tuned in to the opinions of other trans people?

Look at the kind of spats that we see, even played out on TV, in other social groups. Take for example the kind of garbage that was being played on TV during Obama's primary and presidential run. People questioning whether he was "black enough," old guard rights activists calling him names that they once petitioned to have banned... Without naming names, mind you.

I'm just citing this as an example of the kind of infighting that any group will have. One type says they're better than another, or won't associate with another subgroup. Happens all over the place.

Maybe we're more sensitive to it because we're a smaller community in regards to having these types of subdivisions, and clearly there are a number of girls here who place some heavy stock in names.

[Mirani]

Would be lovely to see some apologies for the (even unintended) slight to Lisa and others here by generaliations and stereotyping.
I am not attempting to suggest that the behaviours described here that some of the posters have described aren't true. Just that it doesn't mean that TS in general behave in that way.

We crossdressers can get so uptight when we are insulted or abused or stereotyped (well I can at times anyway). How ironic that we are capable of displaying such insensitive comments to our TS sisters here.

C'mon girls. Lets not be careless of others feelings.

[Nicki B]

I'm just citing this as an example of the kind of infighting that any group will have. One type says they're better than another, or won't associate with another subgroup. Happens all over the place.

Freud identified it as a typical behaviour of minority groups, I understand?

As if we pick fights we think we can win, rather than fighting the wider society, where we expect we're doomed to lose?

But I agree it just demonstrates insecurity - both by those acting superior - but also, sometimes, in those perceiving 'slights', which may not have been intended, as I said earlier? :sad:

[Kelli Michelle]

Personally, I don't think that TS have anything worse going on than CDers. Probably nothing to do with that. We all have our insecurities. Secure TS vs. secure CDers----that would be nice!!!

[battybattybats]

Freud identified it as a typical behaviour of minority groups, I understand?

As if we pick fights we think we can win, rather than fighting the wider society, where we expect we're doomed to lose?

But I agree it just demonstrates insecurity - both by those acting superior - but also, sometimes, in those perceiving 'slights', which may not have been intended, as I said earlier? :sad:

It's often called Horisontal oppression or horisontal hostility.

Such as the Racism some blacks have for hispanics etc. Or hostility between Gays and Lesbians, or Feminist straight women and feminist lesbians.

Its caused either by internalising opression and scapegoating a subset of the community. Such as 'We'd be ok and accepted if it weren't for those X people making us look bad'.

Or its because someone has absorbed hostility towards one group even though they object to the same treatment being used towards them. Such as homophobic Black people or racist Gays.

In all cases it's hypocracy

[Lisa Golightly]

Personally, I don't think that TS have anything worse going on than CDers.

Can you quantify that for me? It's quite a vague declaration. I'm not being hostile... just interested.

[GypsyKaren]

I think it's a big mistake to judge any group by the actions of a handful of strangers who are boozing it up in a bar.

Karen :g4:

[Kelli Michelle]

Can you quantify that for me? It's quite a vague declaration. I'm not being hostile... just interested.

My last comment was only meant to curtail the us vs them feeling. We don't need that.

My thread really wasn't meant to be disparaging to TS, at all. It was meant to include the whole TG spectrum. In other words, "why do any of us look down our noses, when we sorta come from the same repressed part of society?" I think we have enough ideas from the people here.

[Lisa Golightly]

Thanks Kelli :) x

[Nicki B]

Secure TS vs. secure CDers----that would be nice!!!

It'd be nicer still if we ALL thought we were on the same side.. ;)

[Niya W]

I've never really had a problem. First off I'm friendly. Secondly if you dont want to talk to me I could careless. Maybe I have gotten a few dirty looks. I could careless. When I go out , its to have fun not to impress people. Over they years i've been kind of known in the scene. Talked with some of the working girls too. Some is a snob who cares. Bartender get me another drink

[linnea]

I haven't had this response, but I've worried about it. I'm going to go to a place in a city near where I live; it's a place called "Out and About." I've heard that it's friendly. I hope so.

[MissConstrued]

She said that she really wanted to talk with me but she thought I was too beautiful and too successful (when I still had my job a few months ago) and that I would not like to talk with her. She said that she did not speak with me at the party because she did not want her boyfriend to be distracted from the conversation they were having. She did not hate me or deride me. We both assumed things about each other.


Reminds me of something that happened to me in grade school. I was playing handball with a kid. We got into a disagreement about the rules, and I thought he was about to take a swing at me. I threw my arm up to block my face. Come to find out later, he thought I was about to swing at him, and threw his own arm up for protection. We both got hauled to the principal's office for fighting, even though we never touched each other. A potentially violent misunderstanding.

I suspect that what some of you interpret as snobbishness is merely shyness. Perhaps, if you think another T-girl in a bar is being a snob, the better course of action is to go introduce yourself, and perhaps make a new friend, rather than to assume the worst.

[gretchen2]

I like that approach Miss.

[Kelli Michelle]

I suspect that what some of you interpret as snobbishness is merely shyness. Perhaps, if you think another T-girl in a bar is being a snob, the better course of action is to go introduce yourself, and perhaps make a new friend, rather than to assume the worst.

I suppose it's possible. But in this case, and the few others I experienced, all I can say is, "they weren't acting shy at all...". They weren't just sitting there just looking around,acting disinterested, shy, or whatever. Usually they were with "dates", and were very demonstrative.

Normally, I am quite happy to, and often do, go up to a tg sister and strike up a conversation. But, when I get a look like what I got, uh-uh. There was nothing neutral about the look imo. But, I could be wrong. Maybe i should try it once and just see. Maybe I am a poor reader of "looks". We'll find out----lol.

It's really not that this happens a lot, at least to me, and I don't worry about it. I know that women can be catty to other women, and some Tgs can be catty to others. It would just seem that Tg folk have lots of reasons to stick together, so infighting (or whatever) is not understandable to me.

[Mirani]

Just because we share one interest - it doesnt mean we share any other values!
I like fishing .. doesn't mean the fisherman next to me wants to strike up a conversation.
I like to watch Brighton and Hove Albion . . . so does the guy next to me, but he is a racist bigot (I have heard his chanting).
I like Chateau Neuf du Pap ... and the person on the next table does too . . . . but I don't feel the need to go over to him and say hi.

My point is, that just because we may share a need to exhibit and experience our femininity = it doesnt mean we share any other values or life experiences or beliefs.