Motivation for boundaries--does it matter? [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

Kelli Michelle

04-25-2009, 03:10 PM

I have been looking at some other threads, and thinking about my and others' situations.

When you and your wife/so discuss boundaries, does it matter what her motivation is? For example, does she request boundaries because of her comfort level only, or is she concerned that you may "grow" into it and thus move too far away for her to handle her idealized definition of a man?

I see the former as understandable. I see the latter one as an unfair restriction. I mean that would surely stunt ones growth, and potential, right? What if she says she wants boundaries to ensure more time with her and the family. Would that be reasonable if you are already spending tons and tons of time with her and the family?

In my own case, my wife has stated that it would be ok with her if I take up golf again, go to the gym (in guy mode), or play poker with the guys, whatever. She won't come out and say it, but it's not the time I spend crossdressing (which is tiny fraction of every year), per se, it's that I do at all. I know she is scared that if I do it more, I'll want more. As I said to her, "wouldn't you want to know sooner than later where this leads? How can I (and you) figure this out, if I don't experience it to a certain degree?"

What are your thoughts re. motivation---does it matter or not? If it does matter, and it's just her trying to restrict what you are, is there no way to resolve it, if she is unwilling to compromise, or is it a lost battle? What would you do?

anna kate

04-25-2009, 04:23 PM

Veronica Lacey

04-25-2009, 04:37 PM

Hi Kelli...

How to say it all in a few words...

Your two points of discussion sound linked, in my mind. A wife or SO being concerned that a cd may drift too far away from "her ideal man" sounds a lot like a fear that the cd will drift out of her comfort zone.

My own motivations tend to lean towards wanting to dress more at home than I currently do. To wear what I want when I want to as often as I please is a nice dream of mine. I dress for relaxation and because I love the look and feel of the more commonly female colours and fabrics. I currently dress only when my wife is out for a few hours; this happens once a week on average so it's not bad but less time than I wish for.

Since a month into our now 15 year relationship she knew of my desires to dress. It has not always been smooth but over the years we have "hammered out"/discussed our boundaries. Basically, if she does not see me dressed she is quite okay with it. If somebody found out about my dressing she could deal with it. I have explained my motivations to her which include the above and that I do not wish to transition, that I am a hetero man physically and in thought and I will always want to be. I just like to wear clothing from the traditionally female closet.

She is a very compassionate and understanding person and she wants a reasonably traditional man (my words not hers). So long as her needs are met she is fine with me dressing in private but not in her line of sight. There is no trade off of my dressing versus perhaps going out with the guys more often and being away from her more. I think she would prefer that over my dressing yet there is no trade value for that item in our relationship. Having me stay home more rather than visiting pals does not offer me any more opportunity to dress in her prescence, does not make it more palatable for her.

Do I think it a lost cause to push for more? For me, probably. Do I feel that I am being restricted by her not wanting to see me dressed? Sometimes, yes. Yet I believe that the boundaries we have set mirror her comfort levels with my dressing and my comfort levels with my dressing affecting our marriage. I think she has compromised to accept this level to what it is today but I do not think the boundaries have been set to actively thwart my own growth. Marriage involves that compromise you alluded to and that is simply what it has settled in at: a healthy compromise.

I know that I will yearn to dress more often for many years to come and that she and I may forever communicate on these issues on occasion...but I am happy that our marriage is sound in its current form :) Feel welcome to pm if you care to discuss a bit more.

Joanne f

04-25-2009, 04:47 PM

I am just trying to figure out how you going as far as you want to has anything to do with your wife compromising, :doh:

Kelli Michelle

04-25-2009, 04:59 PM

Kelli, My wife has given me 43 years of her life. This, as I see it , entitles her to make some boundaries. Her first fear when I came out to her,(15 years ago) was that I wanted to BE a woman. After convincing her, I was happy with all my parts right where they were, I just wanted to present as a woman, things calmed down more than just a bit. She is still not enthused with the idea (my CD) but tollerates it to a degree. Her fears now, are that my son-in law (the parson) will find out and we will be denied our grandkids. Also she is apprehensive, because she fears for my safety when I go out.
Put yourself in your wifes shoes and look at things from her point of view. I think you and she have a lot more talking to do. There is always common ground to go to, finding it is the hard part. I don't believe we have to give up our bras and dresses to save our families, we just have to go by agreed upon boundaries. When you feel the boundaries are encroaching, you must talk to her and be up front about what your desires are. You may find her receptive, maybe not. How far are you willing to go, to keep your family in tact?
Kelli, I just read the above and it sounds like I'm preaching, I want to leave that to my son-in law, so I'll quit now. Anna Kate

First of all, I appreciate the comments. Thanks for relating your experiences. I have read of many cders with similar stories.

We (my wife and I) have spoken as often, as we can. Also, I am not unempathetic with her situation, the transphobia that it is.

It's not boundaries, per se, that I, personally, have a problem with. My question is does it matter why she wants some certain boundaries. I can understand and agree with family time, spouse time, work time needs/wants/boundaries. That's a no brainer. But, assuming you are taking care of the previous things mentioned, if the main purpose is to restrict your gaining knowledge of yourself (assuming you are still searching for what you are and want) then I think the reason behind the restriction is unfair, and counter productive.

I think the idea that she has to "tolerate" anything I do that is
not immoral, unethical, and is hurting no one is, frankly, intolerable. I am much more empathetic to her cause then she is to mine. I have put myself in her shoes. She should certainly be willing to put herself in mine.

As far as how far I am willing to go to keep the family intact?
I think being willing to repress my my desires a lot for 22 years, speaks volumes to that. My commitment to my wife and family for the same length of time also speaks volumes.
I am willing to do a lot of things to keep the family intact. But unfair restriction ONLY for the reason to keep you from discovering about yourself is unfair, imho. What if she kept you from learning if you were good at music, assuming you kept up to and exceeded family obs/needs/wants? Would that be construed as fair?

I can't complain about you preaching btw. I guess that's what I am doing now----sorry.

JoAnne Wheeler

04-25-2009, 05:16 PM

This has really been a tremendously BIG ISSUE for me the last 5 or 6 months

If you will read some of my earlier posts, you will see how big this issue

became between my Spouse and JoAnne. Like most probably, if my Spouse

were to give me an inch of leeway, JoAnne would try her best to extend it

and when that happens - my Spouse and I have serious problems - I know

that my Spouse would rather that I not dress at all - but she knows that I

have to - if I don't, I go into a real funk - a real funk - a funk with depression,

frustration and generally just not a person that anybody would want to be

around.

Anyway, my "Spouse" set boundaries that she could live with - I really did not

have any input in them - I either agreed with them OR we could get a divorce

after 38 years of marriage. Her boundaries were established to limit my

progression of JoAnne - her boundaries include - 1) don't leave our property

while dressed (I have in the past) ; 2) don't shave your body hair off - I

like it, she says - she knows that I hate it - I think that she knows that I

cannot progress if I look like a hairy ape in a dress 3) do not wear female

clothing in the marital bed (I used to) These are her main boundaries.

Do I like HER boundaries ? Not really - JoAnne would be out and about right

now if these boundaries were not there - but then, JoAnne would be alone

when she got home - there would be no more spouse - 38 years of marriage

is a lot of time between two people - I don't think that I could live without

her.

So even though I (JoAnne) do not like these boundaries - I love my Spouse

she puts up with me when I dress - if I start "going bad" she will encourage

me to go get dressed.

If Boundaries can keep us together, then I have come to accept them (even

though, deep within, JoAnne fights with me over them - JoAnne is like a race

horse in the starting gate - given the chance, she would be off as fast as she

could go) - the boundaries help keep JoAnne in check and they have allowed

us to stay married - you have to weigh the pros and the cons.

JoAnne Wheeler

Kelli Michelle

04-25-2009, 05:24 PM

I am just trying to figure out how you going as far as you want to has anything to do with your wife compromising, :doh:

There are always compromises. Time compromises, family compromises, etc. I am not speaking of those. In addition many of you know what you are, where you want to be, etc. I do not. I don't know what I am, what more I want from this if anything. And no, I don't want it all, just a little bit more time, a few more everyday experiences that normal people experiences to see how I fit in. No, I don't mean sex or drugs.

This is a digression, but wanted to address your comment.

Back to "does motivation matter?"

This has really been a tremendously BIG ISSUE for me the last 5 or 6 months

If you will read some of my earlier posts, you will see how big this issue

became between my Spouse and JoAnne. Like most probably, if my Spouse

were to give me an inch of leeway, JoAnne would try her best to extend it

and when that happens - my Spouse and I have serious problems - I know

that my Spouse would rather that I not dress at all - but she knows that I

have to - if I don't, I go into a real funk - a real funk - a funk with depression,

frustration and generally just not a person that anybody would want to be

around.

Anyway, my "Spouse" set boundaries that she could live with - I really did not

have any input in them - I either agreed with them OR we could get a divorce

after 38 years of marriage. Her boundaries were established to limit my

progression of JoAnne - her boundaries include - 1) don't leave our property

while dressed (I have in the past) ; 2) don't shave your body hair off - I

like it, she says - she knows that I hate it - I think that she knows that I

cannot progress if I look like a hairy ape in a dress 3) do not wear female

clothing in the marital bed (I used to) These are her main boundaries.

Do I like HER boundaries ? Not really - JoAnne would be out and about right

now if these boundaries were not there - but then, JoAnne would be alone

when she got home - there would be no more spouse - 38 years of marriage

is a lot of time between two people - I don't think that I could live without

her.

So even though I (JoAnne) do not like these boundaries - I love my Spouse

she puts up with me when I dress - if I start "going bad" she will encourage

me to go get dressed.

If Boundaries can keep us together, then I have come to accept them (even

though, deep within, JoAnne fights with me over them - JoAnne is like a race

horse in the starting gate - given the chance, she would be off as fast as she

could go) - the boundaries help keep JoAnne in check and they have allowed

us to stay married - you have to weigh the pros and the cons.

JoAnne Wheeler

I have read many of your posts and in some ways we are similar. But your wife didn't give you boundaries, she gave you an ultimatum, "take this or else...", seriously.

Frankly I don't have problems with agreeing to a wife's "request" that we don't do any dressing around the house. But decisions regarding a persons body surely belong to the person in question.

Everyone has to make their own decisions, I agree.

Personally, it's not just about the pink fog with me. I seriously think there is more to my cding than that. And it's bothering the heck out of me that I don't what more there is. I have to find out or it will drive me crazy.

Tasha McIntyre

04-25-2009, 06:11 PM

Hi Kelly (and girls)

My wife and I discussed and formed boundaries together, which was fantastic, and and they were purely for her comfort level (and for our young children). The only thing she was really strong on was me not alerting the neighbours.

The only odd request from the wife was that although she is fine seeing me in girly clothes, she doesn't want to see Tash all done up. I think it's a bit odd because we share make up and she helped me pick out my new wig from eBay. I guess seeing me all done up might just be a bit too confronting.

Cheers

Tash :)

FluffyPersian

04-25-2009, 06:33 PM

Kelli, can you talk more about what it is you need to find out? Are you considering fully transitioning? If you are, I think it would be fair to tell your wife about this straight out and establish some sort of timeline by which you'll know one way or the other. And if you're not sure about this yet, what more do you need to do/know in order to make the decision?

I think discussing these things in more specific terms might help.

One more question: Did she know about the CDing when you got married?

Veronica Lacey

04-25-2009, 06:51 PM

First of all, I appreciate the comments. Thanks for relating your experiences. I have read of many cders with similar stories.

We (my wife and I) have spoken as often, as we can. Also, I am not unempathetic with her situation, the transphobia that it is.

It's not boundaries, per se, that I, personally, have a problem with. My question is does it matter why she wants some certain boundaries. I can understand and agree with family time, spouse time, work time needs/wants/boundaries. That's a no brainer. But, assuming you are taking care of the previous things mentioned, if the main purpose is to restrict your gaining knowledge of yourself (assuming you are still searching for what you are and want) then I think the reason behind the restriction is unfair, and counter productive.

I think the idea that she has to "tolerate" anything I do that is
not immoral, unethical, and is hurting no one is, frankly, intolerable. I am much more empathetic to her cause then she is to mine. I have put myself in her shoes. She should certainly be willing to put herself in mine.

As far as how far I am willing to go to keep the family intact?
I think being willing to repress my my desires a lot for 22 years, speaks volumes to that. My commitment to my wife and family for the same length of time also speaks volumes.
I am willing to do a lot of things to keep the family intact. But unfair restriction ONLY for the reason to keep you from discovering about yourself is unfair, imho. What if she kept you from learning if you were good at music, assuming you kept up to and exceeded family obs/needs/wants? Would that be construed as fair?

I can't complain about you preaching btw. I guess that's what I am doing now----sorry.

Hi again...

After re-reading your posts I just wished to put forth more discussion.

Sure, motivation can matter when it comes to how a spouse regards your dressing. It seems that you are implying that your spouse is trying to restrict your personal growth in the CD department perhaps regardless of what you can explain to be your motivations at this time.

You say yourself that you don't know what you are or where your dressing will lead although you suspect it is more than the pink fog. So if you do not know for sure then your wife surely does not. She can, however, at the very least view your drive from outside your pink fog and may have some legitimate concerns over where she thinks it will eventually lead. How can you suggest you are empathetic to her view and know the entire scope of her thoughts and understanding of your dressing, of any man's dressing? Again, you yourself are still trying to figure it out, yes?

Another thought is that I have had 30+ years to explore and learn of who I am in this regard and I am still learning. She has had 15 years. How long has your spouse known compared with how long you have explored it? Even if it were the same length of time it must be very hard for some women - many women? - to come to terms with what you and I construe as personal growth. I agree with your comparison to exploring music. My wife is a singer and I have thought the same as you before. But singing is acceptable by almost all in the social world whereas crossdressing is not. It may not be her demands that are frustrating you but the reality of the world we currently choose to reside in that is.

Apologies, Kelli. I am not attacking nor condemning your thoughts. I share them with you as I ask myself the same from time to time as I wish to explore this side of my life more. I am trying to arrange ways of exploring it further without infringing too much on my wife and am making slow progress. I cannot force her to totally undestand my penchant for dressing. It is personal growth for me but to her perhaps it is too lesbian in thought, not enough of the man she needs, or a combination of something more. I know my wife but I cannot second guess her 41 years of life programming that she would marry a man who wears a suit more often than a dress no matter how liberal minded she is for all else.

Hope to read more of your thoughts:)

kellycan27

04-25-2009, 07:32 PM

DonnaT

04-26-2009, 08:44 AM

Mostly, my wife worries about what others think. She worries her/our friends will see or find out.

But she also worries about the other shoe dropping. Whether it is 'going gay' or 'transitioning', she's known for 33+ yrs and still cannot fully accept as fact my telling her none of that is going to happen.

Kelli Michelle

04-26-2009, 09:10 AM

Sounds like an attempted end run. Doesn't sound like she has changed her position much from the thread where you said she hated everything about it. She gave you an inch... against her true feelings, now you want to push the envelope more, and she sounds like she's not buying it.

No, her position hasn't changed. So what? If her motivation is all wrong that just makes it worse. Again motivations matter, for me as well. If I am "pushing the envelope" is it because I just want more girly time, or is there something more. You know there can be more to this than just cding, right? What about my true wishes. I could just easily state, "I compromised against my true wishes..." as well. Why does she get the pass?

You don't know where this thing is going,but you don't want it all? ... just a little more? What does that mean? How is a littl more going to help you discover the real you? Or will it take a little more,then even more?

Not knowing where this is going has nothing to do with "wanting it all". Two different things. I guess it's nice always knowing you wanted to be a girl. I have not had that luxury. So how would suggest I find out more about myself? Do it less? Do it only when she "approves" it? Please explain.

Sounds like she's not buying this attempt, just as she didn't buy the "Do crossdressers cause break-ups or do unaccetpting SO's thread.

That's a misquote. It was about "Whose decision is it?". BTW how do you know what she is "buying" or not? It's not about getting her to buy into anything.

I am addicted. She's trying to stifle my growth, and keep me from finding my true self.

I don't know where the addicted part comes from, but it has nothing to do with me. I guess you can speak for yourself. I do admit to feeling like the 2nd part is somewhat true.

it's like you keep trying different ways to shove something she really doesn't like... down her throat. If you have to do more,be more,find yourself...whatever... why not just go do it? You want your cake and eat it to.

I haven't jammed anything down her throat. Again, not sure why you would say that. If I had done that I wouldn't be talking about this now. If I hadn't ALSO compromised and given up things, than maybe you could talk. What's wrong with one finding themselves. You act like it gives you a bad taste in your mouth.

Oh.. as to her motivation. Doesn't look like her opinion or motivation has changed, just your apptempts too side step them.

Interesting that in your whole post, this is the only comment that speaks of her motivation, and that just in passing. It would have been nice if you had actually taken the time to respond to the questions I pose, rather than attack me. I don't expect sugar coating from anyone, but I sure was surprised by the tone of your response. You don't really know me or my situation well enough to make comments like you made. Still I guess an opinion can be informed or not. You are entitled to yours.

Kolokea GG

04-26-2009, 09:45 AM

Well I am going to step out on a limp here and see if I might beable to offer some insight from a GG point of view.

Have you asked your SO what her motivation for the bounderies are?
I myself see our bounderires being a comfort and safety level. Everyone has different situations and for our we have things we need to becareful of.

What is it your looking to do is another question? Your talking about figuiring things out about yourself. From my stand point..I question as to does one really need to be dressed to figuire yourself out. I understand the need to be dressed, but from my POV..I take what your saying as a GG to be that your looking to expand more..maybe going out in public...dating other people dresses..thinking about transitioning? Your leaving yourself very open to speculation which to your SO could be very frightening especially if you both don't know where this is going. I want to know everything..no surprises..even if its a thought and not a decision..I want to know..so I am not taken back later. As far as your SO goes about saying you can do those other things..is she trying to give you time to yourself to think? so you can figure things out.

All in all....I would try to talk about things, but only if your prepared for the Q & A that might come up. Think what it is you want and then talk about it. DOnt go in and say I want more, but don't know what more is. The unknown future can be stressful for us. My husband and I are very open..if there is an issue we discuss it..and not let it build up.

I wish you the best of luck.

Satrana

04-26-2009, 10:52 AM

Motivations mean a lot to me. They send a signal about how far your partner's love extends. I mean partners are supposed to be prepared to die for one another so where is the sacrifice and compromise in her motivations?

As you said if the boundaries are set to allow your partner time and space to adjust to new ideas and new relationship dynamics then that is fair and reasonable.

Other reasonable boundaries include if you involve other family members and journeys into the public arena.

But to set boundaries in order to protect her transphobia is self-centered on her part and backs off from an expression of love.

You know people can be rendered frozen with fear over phobias. If the phobias has no impact on others, say arachnophobia, then it does not matter. But if there is an impact on others, say aviophobia - fear of flying - should the other family members spend a lifetime having to spend days traveling by bus and train or should the person go on a course to cure the aviophobia?

Boundaries used to preserve transphobia have the wrong motivation. It is really a matter for you to decide whether it is worth sacrificing your needs in order to keep her happy. IMHO in the long run it is not because the fears which arise from transphobia will forever eat away at the relationship. She will always fear that you will turn gay or transsexual, she will always be super sensitive to any comment or action on your part which hints at an expansion of CD time or interest. It will forever remain the elephant in the room. Who wants to live like that?

Living with fear is not healthy. However trying to convince a person to face their phobia and resolve their fear, well that is a scary prospect which they instinctively shy away from. In the case of transphobia the situation is worse because your partner probably does not believe their feelings need to be corrected in the first place. And if you try to push them you can expect a backlash.

kellycan27

04-26-2009, 11:51 AM

Let me ask you something. In a previous thread you said that you would like to get implants and live as a woman24/7. Does this still hold true?If so, have you shared this information with your wife? Are implants and living as a woman 24/7 some of the "little more" that you would like her to be more accepting of? You said that you told her that you don't know where this is going....and asked if she wouldn't like to know before 22 years down the road. ... Sounds like you already pretty much know where this is,or you would desire this to go. And it sounds like she's in the dark in regards to this. Previous I asked.. if allowed more,would it lead to more and even more?
Breast implants and living as a woman 24/7 does... to my way of thinking kind of edge more towards being TS rather than merely crossdressing. I could be wrong, and if I am I am sure someone more knoweldgeable will correct me.
Your wife's fear of this this thing spinning out of control seems justified.This is just my opinion but it seems to me that you are inching your way along,feeding her a bit of information here and there...pushing the envelope.Hence my reference to the "end run". I'll withdraw my comment in regards to "stuffing it down her throat"... it's more like small bites. But I'll stick with my opinion that either way. an attempt to force the idea upon her.
You threads seem to have the same underlying theme. Like you are looking to either justify yourself, or lay the blame. Either way..what doe it matter? If she can't accept not having the man she desires, and you can't accept not doing what your head or heart desires why not call it a day? break-ups and divorces are very sad, but is it better for one or the other to be unhappy just to stay?

kellycan27

04-26-2009, 01:01 PM

I am not attacking you.. I am giving an unbiased opinion..just an opinion. if it makes you feel better insert the the word "people" in place of "you" . In either case,my opinion would not alter.
.................................................. .................................................. ....
Addicted.
Something you have to do. Not saying you do have a choice there.
.................................................. .................................................. ....
Tone of my response?
I read your threads. You say you would like to have implants and live 24/7 as a woman. if that's the case, and she doesn't know this.. you are not being honest with her. You don't mention that little bit of information in this thread.You come off like she's the bad guy....
.................................................. .................................................. ....Motivation
I would think that her motivation would be happiness and security. I am sure that she would feel much more secure if she didn't have to worry about the man she she married suddenly popping out as the woman she had no intension or desire to marry in the first place. Gosh,might that fear be justified? Is she just trying to punish you?
.................................................. .................................................. .
Not knowing

I'll give you that, but now you do have a better idea of where this is,or where you'ed like it to go....and to me (because you made no mention of telling her)
she is unaware...1/2 truths are not all that different than deciet.
.................................................. .................................................. ..
Honesty
I do give you a lot of credit for your honesty..in the beginning. telling her that you don't know where this thing was headed, I believe was true,because things do change..granted. Even if you don't know or haven't made the decsion to transition from CD to living 24/7 as a woman the right thing IMHO.. would be to at the very least let her know that the possibility exists. Drop the I don't know, and add the distinct possibility of exactly what might happen. How fair would it be to her if you suddenly come to the conclusion that you do want to transition? Where does that leave her?

We go where ever this thing leads us, and there are times when we really have no say ....and we have the right to go there,but our SO's have the right to know as well. I am not giving youe wife a pass, I just don't know her side..so I make comment on your side of the story.
Continue to be honest. It just may lead to disaster,but wounds heal and life goes on. Better to find out sooner than later,wouldn't you say?

kellycan27

04-26-2009, 01:40 PM

Transphobia? maybe she just doesn't want a crossdresser for a partner. I have no problems what so ever with how anyone wants to live their lives as long it doesn't invlove anything criminal, or abusive behavior. And I have a lot of crossdressing and TS friends. I have no fear of crossdressers, but I find that the thought of having a crossdressing SO, has no appeal for me. Just not my idea of the ideal relationship. As I am sure that there are crossdressers out there who feel the same in regards to having a TS SO.Icky!
We all have the right to make our choices, and to label someone as self centered for the choices that they make or for what they desire in a relationship isn't fair. If you can work it out..awesome, if you can't why lay blame? Different strokes and all. I think that SO's who do set boundries are pretty awesome, They may not like the idea, but are willing to at least compromise. But I can also see the side of those who won't compromise.
If I were dating someone and they told me that they crossdressed, I'd say.. how wonderful for you! Bye, see ya.. don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out! Sorry.. there's only room in this house for one bitch... and you're looking at her! And if i were to marry someone and later found out that they had decieved me... no matter what their excuse...same senerio, only this time i may crack them in the back of the head with a baseball bat on their way out the door.
Who is being self centered? me or the person who has deceived me? Life is to short to have to compromise my happiness...self centered or honest?

chrissie-h

04-26-2009, 04:29 PM

kellycan27

04-26-2009, 04:50 PM

Kelly, Wouldn't it depend on how much you loved your partner before you found out? If you wanted to walk away from him because you discovered he was a secret cross-dresser, how much would that say much about the strength of the relationship in the first place? If the relationship was already stuggling, then finding out that your SO was a CD could justifiably be the last straw. However if you were really in love with your partner, wouldn't it be worth negotiating some rules and boundaries to give the relationship at least some chance of success? Hence Kelly's original post. Just a thought ...

I agree....how much would his keeping it a secret say in regards to the strength of the relationship....
And secondly It would indeed be sad to fall deeply in love with someone that has a habit (for lack of a better word) That I know that I cannot abide by.I would much rather we go our separate ways than to try and force him into a situation that he is not fully happy with, nor force myself to try and accept something that I find distasteful. Read some of the threads.. I don't want to live like some here have to live. Hiding,fighting, secrets, divorce,break-ups,kids and families disrupted. No thanks ! Am I wrong? Am I self centered because I want an honest and up front relationship that both partys will be happy with?

Satrana

04-27-2009, 03:02 AM

kellycan27

04-28-2009, 07:38 PM

There is a major difference between fearing seeing your SO dressed and fearing where it may lead to the idea of a CD as an SO having no appeal. They are two separate issues.

Whatever the case may be, and no matter how much you can educate someone with regards to crossdressing There are always going to be those those who can understand, but they are still going to have a problem with it.
"I can understand what you are saying", but no thanks, it still creeps me out, and I can't abide by it.
You may say ok let's compromise. I will only do it when you are not around,or twice a month.. and they are like no. And you say well why not?
it isn't the number of times that you do it, or when you do it, it's that you do it.... period. It may seem like a compromise to you, but to them...it's no different.

Kelli Michelle

04-29-2009, 02:24 PM

Tone of my response?
I read your threads. You say you would like to have implants and live 24/7 as a woman. if that's the case, and she doesn't know this.. you are not being honest with her. You don't mention that little bit of information in this thread.You come off like she's the bad guy....

I think if you re-read my posts, you will find that I said I BELIEVE or THINK I want to do those things, not that I am going to do it. I am unsure, still. Let's face it, they are common thoughts, and supposed desires within the TG community. Whether those thoughts continue....well only time will tell.
.................................................. .................................................. ....

Motivation
I would think that her motivation would be happiness and security. I am sure that she would feel much more secure if she didn't have to worry about the man she she married suddenly popping out as the woman she had no intension or desire to marry in the first place. Gosh,might that fear be justified? Is she just trying to punish you?

I would agree that she has the both those things as motivation. But they are surely not the only motives. In order to obtain her happiness and security, she needs to get me to cease my crossdressing or at least keep it under control. Thus if my cding, if you will, is restricted, I will not want more, etc. She would probably accomplish her goals if I readily agreed to her restrictions (which I have done for the most part). It's possible that she is doing me a favor, by restricting my cding, nothing is for certain. But she may also be doing me a disservice, by not allowing me to to see what/who I am.
.................................................. .................................................. .
[QUOTE=kellycan27;1700611]Not knowing

I'll give you that, but now you do have a better idea of where this is,or where you'ed like it to go....and to me (because you made no mention of telling her)
she is unaware...1/2 truths are not all that different than deciet.

Half truths? That doesn't apply here. You can't apply half truths when you don't know what the truth is. However, I agree, I should probably share these thoughts with her. The only issue I have sharing those thoughts, is, what if I decide, ultimately, I don't want any of those thing... Then I will have stirred up a hornet's nest for no reason. .................................................. .................................................. ..

Honesty
I do give you a lot of credit for your honesty..in the beginning. telling her that you don't know where this thing was headed, I believe was true,because things do change..granted. Even if you don't know or haven't made the decsion to transition from CD to living 24/7 as a woman the right thing IMHO.. would be to at the very least let her know that the possibility exists. Drop the I don't know, and add the distinct possibility of exactly what might happen. How fair would it be to her if you suddenly come to the conclusion that you do want to transition? Where does that leave her?

I actually had this discussion with her at the very beginning. I took nothing off the table. I said, this is the way I feel now, and when/if I KNOW I want to change things, I will definitely tell you. In other words, she knows the possibility exists. My telling her that obviously didn't reassure her, and is probably causing her considerable anguish.

We go where ever this thing leads us, and there are times when we really have no say ....and we have the right to go there,but our SO's have the right to know as well. I am not giving youe wife a pass, I just don't know her side..so I make comment on your side of the story.
Continue to be honest. It just may lead to disaster,but wounds heal and life goes on. Better to find out sooner than later,wouldn't you say?

I agree. I said this very thing to her, " Wouldn't you want to know sooner, rather than later?" And, she agreed.

kellycan27

04-29-2009, 06:43 PM

kellycan27

04-29-2009, 08:20 PM

I do understand that some of these issue can be quite confusing at times.
At other the times the pink fog thing may cloud some people's judgement... not accusing here. With an issue as impotant as the possible break-up of a marriage or relationship I believe that an xtra attempt be made by some to pop their head out of the fog, and take a long hard look.
On the other hand some may have their head stuck in a completely different place,and although it may be even harder to pop their head out I still believe that an honest attempt be made in that it may give some a clearer picture of how their decisions will effect everyone involved. People make choices, and not always the right ones. None the less they have made those choices, and should live up to them,especially when SO's, wives and or children are involved. These excuses of I didn't know may be valid.... to a point, but they don't change the fact that the choices were made, and the responsibility to do the right thing for ALL involved , falls on the one who makes those choices.Up to and including sacrificing their own happiness for the happiness,security, and piece of mind for those who they have consiously or unconsiously involved in their decision making.

Kelli Michelle

04-30-2009, 11:02 AM

You wife hates that you CD. You give her NO clue as to her safety and security as to her marriage or her husband. Just what is that you expect from her? Just to let you go on your merry way until YOU decide what it is you want for YOUR life? Why don't you do the poor woman a favor and leave.
This is totally your fault and your doing. I don't see where she has ANY culpabilty in what is wrong with your marriage. You are not asking for compromise.. you want it all. You want her to just sit by and let you figure yourself out with the good possiblilty that it will end badly. (for her).
If this is important to you, why don't you leave and try it for yourself? Maybe you'll be able to find your true self if you don't have the distraction of your poor wife putting up blockades. Maybe you will discover that she is more important, or that you really don't want to transition. And when you come back, maybe she'll say.. Well I am not sure if I want you back,because I don't know if I want a crossdresser for a husband or father for my childern.But until I figure out what I want..... you just hang in there. By the way... there is a very good possibility that I won't want you back. Can't say for sure... you're ok with that right?

I think it is counter productive for us to continue in this vein. I am in the position of having to justify myself, and thus look defensive. Some of what you say is somewhat true, sure. But the majority of your suppostions are just plain wrong. As I said you don't know know me or my wife, and frankly it would be take pages and pages of posts to even get close to a point where you WOULD know. You are quite simply,wrong. By the way, simply saying that you are not attacking me, doesn't mean it's true. Everyone can see for themselves. Please feel free to continue as you are. I, however, will cease responding to you.

Lorileah

04-30-2009, 11:39 AM

Kelli Michelle

04-30-2009, 12:05 PM

MY boundaries were set for her comfort level and I am sure what she perceived as my safety. She never once asked if I was gay or wanted a SRS. It wasn't a factor. She actually discussed my proclivities with her co-workers and friends and found one whose husband was the same. My boundaries were few, don't embarrass her, don't get arrested, and be safe

My wife is concerned for my safety too (and hers). I am a very cautious person anyway, and have always agreed to be as safe as possible, and to try not to embarrass her. So far I have succeeded, thankfully.

2b.Lauren

04-30-2009, 12:41 PM

MY boundaries were set for her comfort level and I am sure what she perceived as my safety. She never once asked if I was gay or wanted a SRS. It wasn't a factor.

Lorileah's situation kind of mirrors mine, but with some things that did not pertain. So I removed those areas from the quote. My wife's concern was not only valued but also a very ligitimate one. We live in a small enough place, and I know enough people around here that going out would be a complete nightmare here in this town. I would easily loose my job and be in a big pickle. I don't see this as an over stated gereralization now, but then I was a little too deep in the fog to accept that. After a bit of time and consideration, I drew the same conclusion, that she was right, she was looking out for mine and our best interest and it was something I could live with. I did want to go out of town and dress, but even then she felt no it was not a good idea. I can also accept that with some difficulty but it is okay. I have more trouble with the request of dress at home when you are alone so I or our daughter does not see it. This rarely happens because I just don't get that kind of time alone. I am not resentful here but upset and it is something that I will discuss with her again real soon. I think that we get in trouble because we fail to keep communication lines open regarding the imposed boundaries, and instead push them or violate them on our own volition. It would be so much better if we sat down and checked in on some of the boundaries that were set and see how things are working. Then also say hey can some of this change, I would like to........ That way our spouse would be involved and understand that we also change as we go about things and need a review of the situation to see where we stand. My wife likes the out of sight out of mind part and so we do not communicate as much as we should here.

Sheila

04-30-2009, 01:04 PM

Kelli Michelle

04-30-2009, 02:57 PM

Now here i am not talking about Debs but my EX OKAY .... Debs and I are fine we have one boundary in place and that is hers, whether she ever moves it or not is up to her and her alone :)

When I discovered my EX's CDing after 2 and a half years into the relationship, he was devastated ........ note he was ........ I was hurt and angry at the lies ... but jumped in wholeheartedly .......... he actually hated the fact I knew, hated the fact that I researched, hated the fact that I joined several forums, hated the fact that I was educating myself for what I thought was our benifit .............. after a few weeks I realised that there may be days when I did not want to see Claire, so I asked if we could use a signal that if i was not in the mood to see her I could use, or if there was a day he really desired to be Claire he could give me a signal ( he was not very good at verbal communication:brolleyes:)........ he refused the suggestion, told me it was his decision etc etc, after several months of this attitude he turned a supporting GG into a OKAY your thing do it, just don't let me see it ............ if you wanna do it i can go for a bath & early bed, go to a friends, or you can be downstairs & I can be upstairs ............. it never recovered from his stance, even after he asked for the signals to be in place a few months later ... too late he realised that CDing on his own once more was not all it was cracked up to be.

Hun be careful ................. we who did not sign up for this can so easily be pushed aside into total rejection by your wants, need & desires .... when you joined as man and wife without telling her about your CDing you took away her chance to choose ....... carry on the way you are going and you may push her into a choice you may not like :sad:

I can certainly understand why you feel the way you do about your ex. My viewpoint in re. to my wife, is that I would be happy if she did research and learn more about cding. I don't hate the fact that she knows. BTW, she knew from before marriage that I underdressed. She even bought me a nightgown. But after marriage she kinda went into hibernation about the subject, and since I only underdressed (she knew I was) we just didn't speak about it (by her choice). Once I started going out dressed, she knew in about 2-3 weeks of when I saw her (she was out of the US), which was as soon as I could (see other threads). The full fledged thing is what she has a problem with. I, for sure, understand that she didn't sign up for that. Heck I didn't sign up for that either. What I didn't know when we got married (as she didn't), was that I would eventually go out dressed, and discover a new part of myself. So there was no intent to deceive. It was very likely that things probably would have continued the way we were with relatively no problems, if I only underdressed.

Sheila, not sure what you mean about "carrying on the way I am going." I am pondering many things, but have not come to any real conclusions, and have not acted on any of the thoughts I am having, just supposing and trying to figure it out. I guess you may mean internally. But frankly, I don't see the problem with posing questions to myself and others. I may decide to do nothing, or I may decide to go further. In either case, no matter the result, she will have to decide where she stands as well.

To me there is always a dilemna in re. to cding and love. On the one hand, some say if you love your wife enough (and don't want to lose her), you will do what she wants, and either stop it entirely (impossible for most), or curtail it according to her wishes. It's your fault that all these problems occurred. You are being selfish, etc.

The other side says love transcends all boundaries. We all change over the course of the marriage. If she truly loved you, she would be able to see past the feminine facade and see the true you and accept you.

Obviously there is a 3rd stance, which I guess is in the middle somewhere.

These are serious issues, and it's difficult to find out where you stand, because one can see that there is a good point to all of them. I don't ncessarily see that any of those are "wrong" per se. You have to pick one.....but which one? That's the dilemna.

kellycan27

04-30-2009, 03:49 PM

I think it is counter productive for us to continue in this vein. I am in the position of having to justify myself, and thus look defensive. Some of what you say is somewhat true, sure. But the majority of your suppostions are just plain wrong. As I said you don't know know me or my wife, and frankly it would be take pages and pages of posts to even get close to a point where you WOULD know. You are quite simply,wrong. By the way, simply saying that you are not attacking me, doesn't mean it's true. Everyone can see for themselves. Please feel free to continue as you are. I, however, will cease responding to you.

It wouldn't take pages and pages... I know what you said. I comment on what you have said in this thread as well as others that you either started, or replied to. Just about every word that you have typed has been about you! you! you! I have asked you a very simle question,which you so far have failed to answer,by simply ignoring it or skaking around it. IF YOU DECIDE TO TRANSITION ...WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE HER? IS SHE JUST SUPPOSED TO SAY OK? THE MAN I MARRIED IS NOW A WOMAN.
How wonderful for you to sit there all safe and secure while YOU decide if you want to transition or not. Your wife on the other hand sits in limbo,unsure of you or her future. IMHO I belive that a lot of these "acceptance" threads are posted with the hope of the OP that they will be validated by others that are in the same or simular boat, and I do see that it does happen. Out pop the "phobias" and this and that, and people don't understand us .....
I cannot believe the number of crossdressers who can't understand why their SO can't get on board with this.

vivianann

05-10-2009, 08:56 PM

Before I was married I told my wife about my crossdressing and she said I dont have a problem with it, I never did dress in front of her before we were married, and never showed her pics (did not have any), upon our return from the honeymoon she handed me a list of things I was forbidden to do, and a list of things she expected me to do to change to her liking, well we had a very loud discussion about the the rules and the trying to remake me into something I am not, I did not want a failed marriage, so I gave up crossdressing for her, it was the hardest thing to do in my life but I did it. But I did not give up my car collecting and racing hobby, and after 10 yrs the marriage just was not good we were very unhappy, I was in such a state of depression and misery, and she was also miserable, I finally told her I did not want to be married anymore, why she married me is still a mystery, she was a liberal and I a conservative, found out about her being a liberal after we were married. My point is we need to be honest about ourselves to the women we ask to marry us, because it can affect the marriage, in my case my ex was not honest with me, and that really hurt. I have always been honest and upfront with my dates, because I did not want to decieve them into thinking I was something I am not, as a result of being upfront about who I am the GG's run when they find out I am a crossdresser, to be honest I cannot blame them for running away. I know we do not know you and your wife and your marriage situation, but you and your wife need to communicate so you both know your boundaries, if you both are that miserable, you need to do something about it, you can give up your crossdressing, but then you would be miserable, or she can let you do what you want and she would be miserable. To me it is a no win situation.
That is why I am exploring where I want to go with my crossdressing so I can be who I truely am, I have discovered I am much happier enfemme, so as a result I dress more often than not, the only negative I have found since coming out to the world, is I do get lonely because I do not have an SO.
I know I am asking alot for a GG to accept me as Vivian most of the time, but at least I am not asking a GG after the fact to accept me as a woman, I can can live with myself because I am being honest with my self and most of all any future S.O.. I have resigned myself to the fact that I may never find an S.O. because of the crossdressing, but I do hope that one day I might still find her, or she might find me who knows. Sorry I am so long winded here on this thread, Kelli, I wish you the best, for you and your wife, and hope that things work out for you both. :hugs: Vivian

Prissy Linda

05-10-2009, 09:29 PM

My wife has known I dress since the very beginning and has helped me purchase clothing and makeup, She often asks me if I want to dress if we don't have anything planned.

Since we live in Wyoming (redneck heaven)and it is a rather small town where we are well known my wife does have boundaries that I mostly agree with.
1. Our children don't know about my dressing. (I agree)

2. Our friends and co-workers don't know.( I agree although some suspect because I dressed for a Hallowen party)

3. We go out of town when I want to be completely dressed in public, (she has no problem going out with me as girls. ( reluctantly agree because I want to go out here)

4. I don't post pictures of myself on the Internet. THIS is a big problem for me, I had pictures posted on Flickr and had some very positive feedback on them which I enjoyed so when she found them s**t hit the fan. I have tried to convince her otherwise but she won't budge on that issue.
I feel that I look attractive and want to show others how I look.

rlars1

05-10-2009, 09:37 PM

As a SO I have set boundaries and over time have reevaluated my boundaries and have given more and more. For me it is mostly been for comfort level. For 2 years I wouldn't let my husband do makeup & wig but I reevaluated my comfort level and let him do the make up and wig. Over time my comfort level has grown for both of us and this last year for the first time we went out together with him dressed. This is me and I am very supportive. There ar many SO's that are just tolerant and so some of the boundaries are for comfort and some of them are possibly to keep you from doing it so often. I don't know that it goes as deep as not wanting you to discover more about yourself but is just as simple as having you dress as little as possible. On both sides of this thing both parties need to avoid selfishness or all will fail. You are patient and loving and hopfully one day your SO will be more supportive.

FluffyPersian

05-11-2009, 11:25 PM

Linda,

1. Our children don't know about my dressing. (I agree)

2. Our friends and co-workers don't know.( I agree although some suspect because I dressed for a Hallowen party)

3. We go out of town when I want to be completely dressed in public, (she has no problem going out with me as girls. ( reluctantly agree because I want to go out here)

4. I don't post pictures of myself on the Internet. THIS is a big problem for me, I had pictures posted on Flickr and had some very positive feedback on them which I enjoyed so when she found them s**t hit the fan. I have tried to convince her otherwise but she won't budge on that issue.
I feel that I look attractive and want to show others how I look.

These are EXTREMELY generous boundaries. Most CDers don't have wives who are even a fraction as accepting. Think hard about which matters to you more, what random people on the internet think of your appearance or the happiness of your loving wife?

Please be grateful for having such a loving wife and abide by the boundaries you agreed to. As you've read on this forum, even the most accepting wives have a breaking point.

battybattybats

05-12-2009, 12:55 AM

Linda,

These are EXTREMELY generous boundaries.

Compared to average? Yes. But almost all boundaries on CDing are wrong. Coming from Transphobia. Respecting such boundaries in order to help a GG slowly overcome their various degrees of transphobia is good, wise and often absolutely neccessary.

However the boundaries themselves are not intrinsicly valid. The GG has no right to impose them, only a need. The CD voluntarily restricts themselves to them for the sake of the GG. Something which must be recognised. The GG just like the rest of society has an obligation to overcome their transphobia, no matter hard that may be. The CD also must overcome their internalised transphobia, as those relationships where the SO is more accepting of the CDing than the CD shows.

Most CDers don't have wives who are even a fraction as accepting.

True. But that doesn't make it ok for a GG to settle at any point and say, that's enough. The boundary lies here perpetually. Every person is obligated to overcome transphobia just like racism and sexism. That most wives are more deeply transphobic or less inclined to challenge and overcome their transphobia does not mean that 'lesser evils' should be considered saintly. Just appreciated as far better than the average evils.

Think hard about which matters to you more, what random people on the internet think of your appearance or the happiness of your loving wife?

There is Transphobia in that comment. It's not about 'what others think of their appearance' It's about the emotional validation the CD gets from positive responses to their CDing. And it's not about 'the happiness' of the Wife. It's about her level of triggered Transphobia. Her discomfort comes from her level of Transphobia.

It is important to acknowledge is that Transphobia takes a lot of time and effort to be rid of. And so it makes sense for us to say that the CD should try and find other ways of getting their emotional validation of their feminine self-image and CDing in other ways if possible untill the wife can overcome this part of her transphobia which may take a lot of time.

But lets draw the line clearly here. What the CD wants is not unreasonable and it is only Transphobia that makes it seem less valid than it is.

Please be grateful for having such a loving wife

Indeed.

and abide by the boundaries you agreed to.

Boundaries and rules and arrangements in relationships must always be free for renegotiation. Thats a fundamental human right. And negotiations on them must be as fair as possible. Yet Transphobia and Internalised Transphobia will interfere with that fairness. This fact is something our community needs to acknowledge and work on.

It's very much the same as when Women tried to negotiate with their husbands in the sexist climate of the days before sexism was directly openly and publicly chalenged.

As you've read on this forum, even the most accepting wives have a breaking point.

One defined by their degree of Transphobia and/or degree of overcoming of that Transphobia.

We need to acknowledge that the discomfort of Transphobia is real and powerful. But aslo invalid bad and wrong. But like Racism and Sexism it can't be instantly got rid of but must be worked on to rmove.

When men had to deal with their Girlfriends and Wives getting and continuing an education or working even after marriage they too often set boundaries over their wives. This is no different. It takes time and hard work and open discussion and understanding to overcome these ingrained feellings.

The acceptance listed here is like the Husband who allowed their Wife to continue to study at University, but only so long as it didnt interfere with the cooking cleaning and baby caring and only so long as she didnt try and go back to her job full time once the baby was grown as otherwise she might earn as much or more than he. Because otherwise what would people at the office think? What would his father say? How would people think of him and how would he think of himself?

Her education and career triggered his Sexism and he imposed those boundaries in order to be happy and comfortable.

But like sexism and racism let us not labor under the illusion that Transphobia is right or fair or valid. These boundaries serve only to put a limit to the wives experience of it. Neccessary for easing through the slow overcoming of transphobia yes, but with no other validity other than that purpose.

Tanya C

05-12-2009, 01:58 AM

Kelli-
It seems to me that boundaries and acceptance go hand in hand. Your wife should realize that if she expects you to adhere to a set of boundaries based on her comfort level, then she should accept the fact that you have to do a reasonable amount of CDing. Perhaps it might be a good time to tell/remind her of your need to CD.
Boundaries should take into consideration the needs of both the CDer and her SO.

Tanya

Sheila

05-12-2009, 02:30 AM

battybattybats

05-12-2009, 06:06 AM

Have you read this thread CLICK HERE (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106619)...... you may or may not find it interesting, there is certainly plenty of emotions & feelings in there I don't know that it contains much philosophy or Trans information but it certainly contains real life a plenty :)

I don't doubt the reality of these feellings.

Do you doubt the reality of the feellings of husbands during the womens liberation when their world turned upside down and inside out? Especially when others judged them by the behaviour of their wives? Do you doubt the reality of the feellings of racists when they had to start sharing public water fountains, bathrooms swimming pools and bus seats with non-whites? Or when their daughters brought non-white boyfriends and husbands home? The feellings of parents children and even husbands and wives when people locked in the closte of sexuality came out as Gay or Lesbian?

It's all the same. The emotions are real. But they are the result of Transphobia just like the sexism that had men sink into deep depression because their wife wanted a life outside the kitchen robbing them of their feelling of worth based on the provider-role, the racism that had fathers and mothers reject sons and daughters for falling in love with someone of another race, the homophobia that has had so many Gay kids thrown out on the streets.

The very first comment in that thread:
You were getting ready and it has been several hours and I had to use the restroom. I knocked on the door to ask if I may use the bathroom and you went crazy screamed, ranted then took a shower and it was all my fault I ruined it.

Clear example of Internalised Transphobia of the CD being part of the problem in the relationship.
Same with comment 6.

ITP seems to be the cause of the lies of many CDs, both initial and the habit of them. The cause of the closet. The cause of the hiding. The repression which then leads to the outbursts of Pink Fog. And worse the extreme repression which leads to transphobic violence. It's also the cause of extreme-binary gender presentation attitudes, horizontal hostility between CD and TS and mysogynistic attitudes to women from some CDs and the like.

These comments show that the exact same phenomena found with Homophobia, Racism and Sexism is experienced in our community. The cause of these feellings and most of the trouble in our community.

When you look at the big picture you see the identical patterns.

The explanation the answer the understanding can all be found in understanding Transphobia and Internalised Transphobia. (oh and thats not Philosophy, It's from Sociology and also Psychology and to some extent found in Anthropology)

So yes, those feellings are real. Just like the feellings of male-chauvenists were real, and racists and all the rest. Maybe you owe those people more sympathy for the pain and suffering they endured adjusting their feellings to equality and fairness. But no matter the strength of and reality of those feellings they deserve no more sympathy than the feellings of sexists and racists forced to get over their feellings.

And the answer to just about all the many 'why's in that thread is ITP. Internalised Oppression effects many groups, the examples here http://ctb.ku.edu/en/tablecontents/sub_section_main_1172.htm show that as well as ways to overcome it in individuals and communities.

FluffyPersian

05-12-2009, 05:41 PM

Batty-

Sorry, but reflexively invoking -phobia terms doesn't work in this case. The fact is that heterosexual women are attracted to men, not women. They don't "fear" CD or TG people, but they're not necessarily attracted to men while dressed as women. You brought up the fact that certain men may only be attracted to a woman who cooks and cleans. I have no problem with either scenario, as long as couples are honest with each other about their habits, goals etc BEFORE marriage.

Now what happens if the CD does not disclose before marriage, but waits until some time after? The questions both parties need to think about are 1. Do they want to stay married and 2. If so, what does each need to do to make that happen?

That second step is where the compromises come in. If one wants to be totally free to do as he pleases, he/she is free to file for divorce and skip that step.

Hope

05-13-2009, 02:47 AM

Sorry, but reflexively invoking -phobia terms doesn't work in this case. The fact is that heterosexual women are attracted to men, not women. They don't "fear" CD or TG people, but they're not necessarily attracted to men while dressed as women. You brought up the fact that certain men may only be attracted to a woman who cooks and cleans. I have no problem with either scenario, as long as couples are honest with each other about their habits, goals etc BEFORE marriage.

Now what happens if the CD does not disclose before marriage, but waits until some time after? The questions both parties need to think about are 1. Do they want to stay married and 2. If so, what does each need to do to make that happen?

That second step is where the compromises come in. If one wants to be totally free to do as he pleases, he/she is free to file for divorce and skip that step.

Actually - as much as it pains me to say it, Batty is pretty spot-on in this case.

In terms of marital relationships - a crossdressing spouse is not significantly different from any other modification to a marital relationship, be it children, infidelity, new employment or educational situations, or any other potential stressor to a relationship. Healthy marriages involve people who are best friends who respect each other and are able to see the good in each other, these are marriages where when things get tough - the members turn towards each other for support and reconciliation. Those marriages adapt to accommodate new life situations and invariably do well and thrive under stress. Marriages composed of people who are not particularly good friends at the outset - composed of people who are suspicious of their partners and afraid of loosing status, marriages where partners look outside of the marriage for support - those marriages invariably fail.

Crossdressing can kill a bad marriage, but it won't have a significant impact on a good one.

Folks make all sorts of excuses for getting torqued about crossdressing, and to justify the unilateral imposition of "boundaries" on the behavior of another person - but it really all comes down to one person thinking that the other is somehow icky.

Sheila

05-13-2009, 02:51 AM

Actually - as much as it pains me to say it, Batty is pretty spot-on in this case.

I have to disagree with you here hope and agree with FluffyPersian .... this is my 2nd CDing relationship and it is not the trans anything thta destroyed the first ...... but there again FP and I come at this from opposite sides of the Gender fence to you and Batty.:)

battybattybats

05-13-2009, 06:07 AM

Batty-

Sorry, but reflexively invoking -phobia terms doesn't work in this case.

Then you do not understand the term. Transphobia, like homophobia is not a term like claustrophobia, a classical fear-response. Instead the term is actually referring to the fact that cissexism (a new term much younger than Transphobia) is in a different catagory of bias to raceism and sexism as it more frequently results in hostile negative emotions of revulsion and violent rage. But that is only part of the phenomena, it is like sexism and racism a pervasive set of views that effect every facet of life. It provokes emotional responses at an unconcious level of revulsion, disgust and in the internalised of shame guilt and self-hatred. It also results in assumptions that cis is normal, cis is better etc thn trans.

The fact is that heterosexual women are attracted to men, not women.

Not only is that often not the case (from Kinsey onwards it has been known that large portions of 'straight' people are in fact attracted occassionally to the same sex while still considering themselves 'straight') but then there is the entire seperate catagory of trans-attraction found in men and women, cis and trans, Gay Straight and Bi where people are attracted to the combination of male and female traits and/or masculine and feminine expression (From David Bowie to Boy George to Davey Havok to Jeffree Starr gender non-conformists have often been considered attractive by all sorts of people). And yes some women wont find CDing a turn-on but not every guy finds a woman with short hair dressed in practical clothing pants and sensible shoes attractive either, but many husbands had to shut up and deal with it and were judged harshly if they dumbed their wives for more feminine ones.

They don't "fear" CD or TG people, and not all mysogynists literally hated women yet held sexist views both conciously and unconciously.
but they're not necessarily attracted to men while dressed as women. You brought up the fact that certain men may only be attracted to a woman who cooks and cleans. Thats not what I said. I said that men put restrictions on their wives because there own identity was threatened by their wives education and career and so limited their degree of liberation to ensure the wives maintained some of the traditional womens role and did not encroach too much on male-dominated parts of society and their lives.
I have no problem with either scenario, as long as couples are honest with each other about their habits, goals etc BEFORE marriage. While internalised transphobia exists, which is so long as transphobia is the dominant cultural force in young TGs childhood experiences then the realities of states of denial to outright repression and the clossetting will continue. And while that is so an expectation of CDs coming out prior to marriage as noble wise and ethical as such an act may be is unfair unjust and unreasonable expectation! If you don't like that most CDs are so badly effected by ITP that they keep it hidden from their SOs blame the ITP and do something about it so that the next generation of CDs do not also become closetted.

Now what happens if the CD does not disclose before marriage, but waits until some time after? The questions both parties need to think about are 1. Do they want to stay married and 2. If so, what does each need to do to make that happen?

I'll give you part of 2. right now if you like. Each likely needs to understand the sociological and psychological forces which forced the CD into the closet, made hiding look like the right thing to do and which will continue to effect both CD and SO till overcome.

That second step is where the compromises come in.
Ah but transhobia if not overcome will ensure the compromise is biased.
If one wants to be totally free to do as he pleases, he/she is free to file for divorce and skip that step.
If the same was said about a wife demanding the right to an education or a job by a man it would be called a statement of "Patriarchal Privilege". Understanding of such things have moved on since the early days of womens equality, the Patriarchy is now discussed as the Kyriarchy as layers of privilege and horizontal oppression has ben studied.

You will find however that if propoerly understood the very principles that gave you a right to divorce your husband, own your own property, say no to your husband about things relating o your body and self-expression and the like also apply to you when your husband is a CD.

I have to disagree with you here hope and agree with FluffyPersian .... this is my 2nd CDing relationship and it is not the trans anything thta destroyed the first

Plenty of relationships fail on their own. However untill you have understood transphobia and searched yourself for it (and it is often unconcious) then you could be like plenty of people who claimed they weren't racist or sexist yet did or said racists or sexist things. Just because they were less didn't mean they were free of any.

...... but there again FP and I come at this from opposite sides of the Gender fence to you and Batty.:)

What a potentially Transphobic and offensive statement. By all you both have said I take it you are both Cissexuals. Currently I too am a Cissexual, though you made a previous statement that either assumed I was a transsexual or was an insult. Ah but are you both Cisgender? You are I take it? I am clearly Transgender.

Do you know if Hope is a Cissexual Transgender or a Transsexual Transgender... what if she's a Transsexual Cisgender? A transexual whose gender expression does fall into strict gender binary expression merely that which corresponds to her inner-self sex not external anatomy (you did read that link I posted for you on the Cis term from the Questioning Transphobia site didn't you Sheila? With it's alternate understanding of Cis/Trans-gender? You used that very site in that post about the hate-crime murder of Angie Zapata after all). I don't know that much about Hope, do you?

And depending on how one marks the fenceline of the Gender fence you might find you may have the line all wrong. It all depends on what parts of your brain are male-like and female-like and to what extent and then compared to my own. I realise you hate science but this site if you can follow it will destroy your cisnormative notions of gender forever. With proof and brainscans http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2008/06/bigender-and-brain.html

So untill both of our brains are disected and our Lymbic neurology measured or untill the fmri scans are good enough and cheap enough I suggest that, beyond remarking that I have a trans-gender life experience replete with its discriminations and you have a cisgender life experience with all its unjust privilege then I suggest you shouldn't comment on other peoples Gender.

It's a totally transphobic thing to do whether you understand what I'm saying or not (maybe if you read enough at Questioning Transphobia you'll get it http://questioningtransphobia.wordpress.com/ though you might need to understand feminism first) Your and my sexes may certainly currently be different. But our Gender is a seperate thing again. You can only be sure of the Cis/Trans life-experience.

Sheila

05-13-2009, 06:19 AM

Plenty of relationships fail on their own. However untill you have understood transphobia and searched yourself for it (and it is often unconcious) then you could be like plenty of people who claimed they weren't racist or sexist yet did or said racists or sexist things. Just because they were less didn't mean they were free of any.

Batty if I was in anyway Transphobic, then let me assure you that at the end of my Previous realtionship I would have walked away from this lifestyle in a heartbeat nad never have looked back .................... instead I entered into my now relationship knowing full well that my partner is a TG person and Love them because of who they are ...................

So do I read it right, are you are implying that I am, or maybe Transphobic?

battybattybats

05-13-2009, 06:53 AM

Batty if I was in anyway Transphobic, then let me assure you that at the end of my Previous realtionship I would have walked away from this lifestyle in a heartbeat nad never have looked back .................... instead I entered into my now relationship knowing full well that my partner is a TG person and Love them because of who they are ...................

So do I read it right, are you are implying that I am, or maybe Transphobic?

I am saying that just as everbody may be sexist and specifically mysogynist, including men who continue to have relationships with women, including straight women in their internalised mysogyny and even lesbians then yes, you may be transphobic to some degree or in some way, me too, just like even out TSs can be transphobic. Like 99% of the entire Harry Benjamin Syndrome advocates for example.

See this is something your not understanding about how these things work. It's much more complex than just 'hating TG'.

For example the HBS folk who only consider cisgender legitimate consider crossdressers and late-transitioning pre-op and non-op TSs as not being 'true-transsexuals' or 'classic-transssexuals' and thusly not legitimate or less legitimate. This is one of the examples of Horizontal Hostility caused by Internalised Transphobia.

As explained here from http://ctb.ku.edu/en/tablecontents/sub_section_main_1172.htm

2. Internalized oppression occurs among members of the same cultural group. People in the same group believe (often unconsciously) the misinformation and stereotypes that society communicates about other members of their group. People turn the oppression on one another, instead of addressing larger problems in society. The results are that people treat one another in ways that are less than fully respectful. Often people from the same cultural group hurt, undermine, criticize, mistrust, fight with, or isolate themselves from one another.
In Spike Lee’s 1988 film School Daze, light-skinned African-Americans at a prestigious black college look down on their darker-skinned fellow students.
It is important to note that internalized oppression is not the fault of people whom it affects. No one should be blamed or blame themselves for having been affected by discrimination. Nevertheless, as community members, we have to face these barriers in order to achieve our goals.

While the stereotypes that people internalize are imposed by society, we all, whether we are members of the favored majority or the oppressed or unfairly treated minority, have a personal responsibility to confront those stereotypes. As members of the majority, we need to help and support those in the minority to see that their personal worth has nothing to do with society’s current or past prejudice. And as members of the minority, we have a responsibility to listen to those among us who challenge the majority view, and to analyze and challenge it ourselves. We may need support and guidance in doing so...

More examples and explanation at that link.

So you see it is a much more complex phenomena than your considering. More from that site

As you can see, internalized oppression can have serious consequences for communities. It holds people back from thinking well of themselves, from living full lives, and from standing up against injustice. It can be the source of physical or mental illness and self-destructive behavior. Internalized oppression can serve to divide people within the same group, so they are not as effective in supporting each other and standing together for change. It can also cause people to be suspicious of those outside their own group, making it difficult to build alliances.

Look at the subtle ways people can be racist even if they don't hate other races. Sexist even if they don't hate the opposite sex.

Often people can think themselves positive towards groups while perpetuating stereotypes, judging people for the results of oppression and internalised oppression, dissmissing or minimising acknowledgement of discrimination against them (thats a very common one especially with racism and sexism), resenting visibility of marginalised and 'rendered-invisible' groups as well as group-specific aims to addres inequality and far far more. Oh and dissmissing their experiences and self-identification are other common ones.

If racism and sexism are examples to go by then almost everyone in the western world and it's influence will have some degree of transphobia! If you read and learn more about racism and sexism you will not only see this but the clear patterns that show how Transphobia works.

Sheila

05-13-2009, 07:36 AM

I am saying that just as everbody may be sexist and specifically mysogynist, including men who continue to have relationships with women, including straight women in their internalised mysogyny and even lesbians then yes, you may be transphobic to some degree or in some way, me too, just like even out TSs can be transphobic. Like 99% of the entire Harry Benjamin Syndrome advocates for example.

See this is something your not understanding about how these things work. It's much more complex than just 'hating TG'.

ahhhh you mean something like "I think the man/woman doth protest too much type thing maybe yeah !!!!!!

But I can well assure you ..... that is if you care to listen? ........ I am neither, rascist, sexisst or Transphobic ............. I think I may know mw just a little better than you think you might know me . I do believe one can disagree with one person, sex or gender orientation or any combination of things/typed without them being classed as in ISM or PHOBIC toward the general anything ............. but there again whatwould i know being a mere minion :confused:

And I do not appreciate it being implied by anybody that I am any of tyhe above......... not that I am saying you are implying that:doh:

battybattybats

05-13-2009, 09:51 AM

ahhhh you mean something like "I think the man/woman doth protest too much type thing maybe yeah !!!!!!

No. I'm not saying that.

I'm saying that people may think they are not racist and say they aren't and yet make comments that clearly are, but not as bad as "kill the (blank)'s" but instead making comments based on stereotypes. Or being patriarchal, condescending or patronising. Disabled folk get lots of ablism from carers and medical practitioners for example, you see it plenty when it comes to race issues. Assuming asians will be good at maths and bad at driving, assuming blacks will be less intelligent than whites but more strong or athletic... there are many forms of racism/sexist etc other than overt hatred. Often people are racist etc while thinking they are in fact especially tolerant.

But I can well assure you ..... that is if you care to listen? ........ I am neither, rascist, sexisst or Transphobic

That you are aware of. But when it can be an unconcious bias you would not be easilly aware of it.

............. I think I may know mw just a little better than you think you might know me .

Subjective bias. There are aspects of self-knowledge available only from others. Your words and acts will show that far more than your self-opinion or self-appraisal. Your dissmissal of violence and murder stats for non-white transwomen neatly fits the 'minimising acknowledgement of discrimination against them' part, now that may be anti-intellectualism perhaps but your posts on more than one occassion suggest you have certainly been repeatedly ignoring the transphobic pressures on TG people. That is a form of Transphobia.

Just the same way for example that ignoring the way that additional sexist pressures women face in the workforce effects their careers resulting in part of the glass ceiling and lower levels of career achievment compared to men is sexist. Ignoring the existence of these pressures and dicrimination protects those pressures and discriminations. It also results in victim-blaming. Ignoring the additional struggles of people results in blaming them for succeeding less than those who have the advantage of not having those hurdles in front of them.

I do believe one can disagree with one person, sex or gender orientation or any combination of things/typed without them being classed as in ISM or PHOBIC toward the general anything

You can disagree with a persons argument without being biased so long as your point, argument or counterpoint is not biased (such as being based on incorrect assumptions, stereotypes or made excluding valid and important factors). Disagreeing with them because of who they are etc is biased. Disagreeing with someones self-defined gender identity etc is biased. Disagreeing with someones sexuality is biased. The bias is '-phobic' or '-ist'.

............. but there again whatwould i know being a mere minion :confused:

'A mere minion'? What are you on about? Minion of whom? Or What? Or did you mean Plebian? Even then i have a fairly high regard for Plebians and would not agree with your comment as Plebians can know plenty indeed. Having lived almost my entire life below the poverty line no elitist am I.

And I do not appreciate it being implied by anybody that I am any of tyhe above......... not that I am saying you are implying that:doh:

Actually I say that almost everyone is to some small degree or larger Racist and Sexist and more. You may not like that but it is true that even though not overtly biased, most people have heaps of such biases unconciously. Thats how black people develop internalised racism etc etc.

Example: In primary school the class was given a book (alas i dont recall the title). We all read it with the teacher. About someone (i think the name was Leslie?) who climbed trees, played sports and wore a baseball cap (or such). On the final page it is reveiled the child was a girl. There was nothing TG about the child, merely tomboyish. the point was that everyone, boy and girl alike assumed the character was male despite it never being said the character was male.

That is an example of how everyone raised in a sexist society is sexist to some degree! As a roleplayer since my tweens (dungeons and dragons etc) I noticed that girls around my age and a bit below always started playing the game with male characters. Why? Because fantasy novels are mostly male main characters, films the same. So their default idea for a character was male! No matter the gender expression of the girl playing. These wren't all tomboys by any means. This changes the younger generation the player is as more and more female main characters have appeared in popular culture.

Do some research on racism and feminism and you will see a panoply of lesser ways that sexism and racism pervade our society, our assumptions, our thoughts and feellings. Yes to varying degrees but it is a nearly unique person usually with a rather unique life who is without any at all. And the same is true of homophobia.. resulting in hetero-normative assumptions and conventions and hetero-sexist attitudes and views pervading society and with transphobia it'll be cisnormative and cissexist. Same mechanism.

Prissy Linda

05-14-2009, 12:15 PM

Linda,

These are EXTREMELY generous boundaries. Most CDers don't have wives who are even a fraction as accepting. Think hard about which matters to you more, what random people on the internet think of your appearance or the happiness of your loving wife?

Please be grateful for having such a loving wife and abide by the boundaries you agreed to. As you've read on this forum, even the most accepting wives have a breaking point.

I agree that I am very fortunate to have such a wonderful and accepting wife who has always known and allowed me to be who I am without many boundaries. She realizes that the femme side of my being is what makes me, me.

When I read stories from the other girls who struggle and agonize because their S.O.'s and society won't allow them to express those internal feminine feelings so I can't help but be extremely grateful. My wife has asked me when I want to push those boundaries that she/we have agreed to if I am prepared for the concequences that would arise,

1. Could I do my job with all the ridicule be acceptable to me? I'm probably not that strong.

2. Would I disappoint my grown children and young grandchildren? Oh without a doubt.

3. Would our friends accept this part of me? HELL NO... I have never tried to portray myself as a macho male but in this part of the country males are expected to be MEN.

So why would I want to change the boundaries? All she is doing is tring to protect our family and me. How selfish am I? I WANT TO BE ME...

However what Batty wrote is basically what I struggle with, (although I could never express my thoughts as elequently as Ms. Batty). CDing is not something that we shouldn't be ashamed of, Ignorance is our biggest enemy but until WE and the Media, schools and other venues change then we are destined to hide in the closet.

Sheila

05-14-2009, 04:39 PM

Batty once and for all I am not Transphobic, racist, sexist or any of the other isms isist or anything else you care to imply I am or may be .............. i am well aware of my faults and they do be many nut never ever will I allow you to call or imply me transphobic, racist or sexist and I have brought my children up to be fair and open minded about people and situations ... in fact I am prooud they are my children .............. my oyungest has had an extremely traumatic and distuebing 6 years, yet just this hyear he has become the ytoungest child in his school to ever have gained a nationally recognised certificate and we think .... ( though we will not know for certain until later this year) ... that it may be in the county ............ he is one of the fairest children i know looks for the best in every damn person, no matter how much those around him are down crying a person he can always find something nice to say about them ............ sometimes he shames me with my lack of charity toward the repeating offender.

I do expect an apology from you for your repeated attempts at trying to persuade me i am an ...IST, or phobic or any other implied derogatory term you care to use toward me ..... I really do ... but i will not hold my breath :Angry3:

Deborah Jane

05-14-2009, 04:55 PM

Batty once and for all I am not Transphobic, racist, sexist or any of the other isms isist or anything else you care to imply I am or may be

Batty, i know Sheila intimately and i can garantee that she is not Transphobic or anything else you are accusing her of being.

I know for a fact she definately isn't Transphobic, because i'm [under the definations here] a transperson and i am marrying her later this year.

You are publicly slandering her here and i demand that you apologise, failing that i would like the mods to take action against you, because your accusations against Sheila are deplorable!!

ReineD

05-14-2009, 09:04 PM

To Sheila & Debs, hope you don't mind me butting in, but this might help:

Being transphobic does not mean that someone is biased or judgmental or bigoted. Internalized transphobia is what keeps CDers (and their SOs) in the closet for fear of the bias and the bigotry they may encounter on the outside. It explains why the CDer only dresses at home, or why they both go out dressed far enough away from the people in their daily lives. Or in the extreme cases, why the CDer believes his wife would reject who he is. He has somehow internalized the belief that it is "wrong" or somehow hurtful to CDress.

I'm editing this to add that I suffer from a form of it too, since I am afraid of negative emotional consequences should some people in my life know about my SO's CDing.

Also, it is not inconceivable that an SO or a CDer would not like to admit this. Does anyone like to admit they are influenced by other people's opinions? So sometimes it is easier for a CDer to justify his inner fear by saying he does not want to hurt his wife so he will severely limit his CDing. And his wife justifies her fear by believing that just knowing that her husband dresses turns her off, even if her husband agrees to dress privately and not involve her in it at all.

If there is a fundamental gender question... if the SO does not know whether her husband will wish to transition or eventually live full time, then it is a different matter altogether.

=======================

Kelli, your wife needs to determine why she cannot wrap her mind around this. Is it fear of the CDing and how it might develop in the future, or is she is genuinely turned off by the idea that you CDress. If it is the latter, I'm afraid there is not much hope for your marriage. Does she believe you have a choice in the matter and you can turn it off at will?

Having said this, if you and your wife should eventually come to an agreement where you could go out once or twice per week with her blessing but without involving her (for now until she takes the time to educate herself), do you think you might safely say to her that you do not plan to transition at the moment? Also if she feels insecure about the places you might go to dressed, would you extend an open invitation for her to join you so she can determine that your marriage is not threatened by your outings? Are you ready to out yourself to everyone in your life and if not, would knowing this assuage her fears?

Also Kelli, I believe both of you have taken it to the adversarial plane, and no offense intended, but there are power play issues involved now, on both your parts. This is what happened in my relationship with my ex. We reached a standstill and we became unable to be empathetic to each others needs. We let our differences go way too long before addressing them in any productive manner and then we could no longer hear each other. Would you agree to marriage counseling? Not over the CDing issues immediately even though I know how difficult this must be for you, but more to help your wife discover why she is so dead set against the CDing even if she is not asked to be involved at the moment.

I still extend my offer to talk to her if she would like. I would not try to sway her opinion. I would just listen and answer any questions she might have from a GGs point of view. I may not be able to help, but I am willing to try.

The Gas Man Cometh

05-15-2009, 12:15 AM

Batty, i know Sheila intimately and i can garantee that she is not Transphobic or anything else you are accusing her of being.

I know for a fact she definately isn't Transphobic, because i'm [under the definations here] a transperson and i am marrying her later this year.

You are publicly slandering her here and i demand that you apologise, failing that i would like the mods to take action against you, because your accusations against Sheila are deplorable!!

Woah, woah, hold up. With all due respect, Ma'am, Batty has not directly accused Sheila of anything. Granted she generalised, saying most or all people are racist OR sexist OR transphobic in SOME WAY, I am sure she never meant to offend anybody.

I too am guilty of forms of racism, when I struggled with Lebanese people in highschool, and light hearted comments about how "That'd be right, they're Asian [Or Indian]" if I notice some crazy driving on the roads. It doesn't mean I HATE anybody, but it's still racial profiling.

I admit I am also guilty of sexism. I am a GG, but most of my friends are male, and all of my co-workers are male. Yet still, there have been times when I'm all, "I hate men!" Or, "men are stupid," or "Bloody men!" It's small, passing feelings that are sexist.

It's not always THAT much of a huge deal, but I do think that it's true that everybody is a little guilty of racism OR sexism or both, and I don't see how that is directly accusing any one person of being absolutely sexist or racist.

Now the bit about transphobia, is that it's in the same league as how Batty explained racism and sexism. It can be present in mild forms that a person is unaware of, think about it. Why else would someone get uppity about a man wearing women's clothing unless they had some form of varying degree of internalised fear that gets reflexively projected outwardly? As with sexism/racism, it's true that it's present in MANY people, and that again is not directly accusing any one person of being absolutely transphobic.
Why else would there be a need to limit a person's 'exposure' to their male SO in feminine clothing, unless there was a deeper seated cause?

The point of the argument is that everyone CAN be a little guilty of all of these three factors, that it's rare for a person to be 100% innocent of at least one of them.

I've gone through them, my ex has also dealt with those three, and it's just a hurdle in life that some people need to face. It's not about accusing anyONE of anything, it's just a suggestion that people look internally FIRST before trying to set boundaries to CONTROL another.

docrobbysherry

05-15-2009, 12:15 AM

Everyone seems to be talking about something different than most everyone else! This entire thread, is a bit like a MARRIAGE in ITSELF! :eek:

The misunderstandings, the refusal of some to understand, the self-rightious, the self-deluded, the naieve, the rationalisers, the knowledgable,the innocents, the 1/2 truths and deceptions, open hearts, but closed minds, etc., etc.:doh:

The funny thing is: EVERYONE is rite in this thread! Because when u discuss personal relationships, you speak from YOUR experience, and YOUR opinion of what went rite, or wrong with yours! U lived it, so u MUST be rite!:D

That's why discussing these topics is SO MUCH LIKE WALKING THRU AN OCEAN OF JELLO! U can get all worked up, flail around, but mostly, u get nowhere!:brolleyes:

ANY relationship that lasts requires so many different twists, turns, and adjustments by both individuals, as to be nearly impossible to accomplish, much less finding another couple that had the EXACT SAME ISSUES!

It's nearly impossible to completely know yourself, much less someone else! So, it comes down to "trust". Either u trust your partner, or u don't! And I think all the CD/TG/TS issues fall into this area! To SOME degree, or another!:straightface:
Heck, u MAY trust your partner more than u do yourself!:eek: I have!

Satrana

05-15-2009, 04:25 AM

The misunderstandings, the refusal of some to understand, the self-rightious, the self-deluded, the naieve, the rationalisers, the knowledgable,the innocents, the 1/2 truths and deceptions, open hearts, but closed minds, etc., etc.:doh:

I agree this has been an enjoyable thread if sometimes for the wrong reasons. Still it is also one of the most important although no doubt many will not read it or agree with it. Thanks Batty for probably the best thread ever.

Transphobia is the elephant in the room. This very thread demonstrates how many people refuse to even acknowledge its existence and still try to explain it away with other justifications that while sensible, are nothing more than excuses because they cannot admit to the existence of transphobia.

IMHO everyone is transphobic to some degree. It is inevitable because our society is so overwhelmingly transphobic towards males that unless you live in an isolated cave in the wilderness you will have absorbed the transphobia and accepted it as normal and natural just as we do with everything else society teaches us until we have the opportunity to seriously question it. And even when we think we have purged it from ourselves, we will not have because gender issues are so fundamental to our society and relationships that you cannot remove all traces of it no matter how hard you try.

And transphobia is the root issue, the key stone, around which all other CD issues revolve. You will never understand or appreciate what CDing is until you acknowledge the existence of transphobia and how it affects your decisions and outlook.

All prejudices are inherently wrong. There are no justifications to ever support them or try to declare rights from them. They originate from the dark side of our humanity and will never be eradicated. But we can educate ourselves to recognize the feelings, and condition ourselves to reject them as immoral. We have done this with racism and sexism, are currently progressing with homophobia but transphobia remains largely hidden for the moment. Hence - what elephant?

Sheila

05-15-2009, 04:51 AM

Being transphobic does not mean that someone is biased or judgmental or bigoted. Internalized transphobia is what keeps CDers (and their SOs) in the closet for fear of the bias and the bigotry they may encounter on the outside. It explains why the CDer only dresses at home, or why they both go out dressed far enough away from the people in their daily lives. Or in the extreme cases, why the CDer believes his wife would reject who he is. He has somehow internalized the belief that it is "wrong" or somehow hurtful to CDress.

Reine the definition of

-phobia
suffix

Definition:

an exaggerated or irrational fear

phobic

-phobic ......... suffix

Definition: with a strong or irrational fear or dislike of somebody or something

so by those definitions of exageration & irrationality, then anybody with a phobia af trans issues would be nowhere near a site like this, so motivations for bounderies come nowhere near the definition of being transphobic ..... or have i got that wrong?:sad:

docrobbysherry

05-15-2009, 09:54 AM

I tend to agree with Sheila! Satrana, and Batty, if u want folks here to understand your points, maybe internalised "trans-prejudice" would be a better one.

When I was young, I told my father I wasn't prejudiced against people of other races. He asked me if I was TRULY "color blind". He explained that meant,
NOT SEEING ANY DIFFERENCE IN PEOPLE FROM THE DIFFERENT RACES!:eek:
Because "prejudice", simply means, "biased" in some way. It could be FOR, or AGAINST, another person, but NOT be neutral!:)
And that only if I DID THAT, would I actually be NOT PREJUDICED!
Otherwise, internally, and maybe only subconsciously, in some way, I was biased, either for or against, that person from another race. If only in some SMALL way!:brolleyes:

So, by the same reasoning, the word, " trans-prejudice", describes the act of anyone NOTICING SOMEONE LOOKING DIFFERENT FROM THE STANDARD MALE OR FEMALE IN APPEARANCE! And in so doing, forming a "bias" toward them, either positive or negative!

I think if people understand this concept, Batty's and Satrana's posts may be more agreeable to them.:D

I CERTAINLY admit to biases based on the race, age, gender, and just the look, of people! Either for, or against! Some r conscious, and some r NOT! I may NOT admit to being TRANSPHOBIC, but I'll admit to being TRANS-PREJUDICED!:eek:

The Gas Man Cometh

05-15-2009, 10:11 AM

Transphobia is an entirely different word to trans-prejudiced, and as such have their own meanings.

ReineD

05-15-2009, 12:18 PM

Oh dear, we do debate about everything ... :sigh: But, maybe it is a good thing. Very little of this has been properly defined since there have not been many studies and we as a community are at the forefront of deepening the general understanding IMO, especially as there are so many subtle variances depending on any individual.

Sheila PMd me about this, and this is my response to her. :hugs:

I do believe that fears can be more subtle. So maybe the correct word should be Transreluctance at one end of the spectrum and Transphobia at the other, depending on the individual. lol

But seriously, in your case you've told your kids so maybe you've worked through it all, and so have others who are fully out to their family, friends, coworkers, and community.

But most CDers are not, not even my SO & I. And I do believe that it is a fear of suffering some form of being ostracized or judged negatively that keeps most CDers from being completely open to everyone about their CDing. And some CDers actually do feel or have felt bad about themselves at one point, believing they were sick or freaky, purging, etc ... you know the story.

So in my view, transphobia is not a put-down at all. It only describes a reluctance to be completely open about the CDing to everyone, which in our world is a completely natural reaction. If we had to change the word to accurately describe everyone's individual level of reluctance or fear, then it would make it even harder to get the point across.