Internalised Transphobia. External Transphobia. The source of our problems?

[battybattybats]

The more i read about and hear about internalised sexism and internalised racism the more i'm convinced that the source of our own personal issues is internalised transphobia and the struggles with SOs etc being their own and societies transphobia and/or our fear of that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internalized_oppression#Internalized_oppression


In sociology and psychology, internalized oppression is the manner in which an oppressed group comes to use against itself the methods of the oppressor. For example, sometimes members of marginalized groups hold an oppressive view toward their own group, or start to believe in negative stereotypes of themselves.

For example, internalized racism is when members of Group A believe that the stereotypes of Group A are true and may believe that they are less intelligent or academically inferior to other groups of people.

Any social group can internalize prejudice.



From the pink fog to purging to hiding CDing from wives, fair negotiation with them and struggles with their understanding and acceptance and all the rest i think that these two forces are at the core of it all.

Our shame, guilt, difficulty accepting ourselves as well as all the difficult feellings SOs must deal with... all caused by the acceptance largely unconciously of transphobia.

Its a phenomenon explored amongst groups suffering sexism, racism and homophobia. Theres countless articles on its effects on all manner of peoples.

I think we are the same too.
And that understanding it is the answer to many or our questions fears and issues. And understanding transphobia as being like racism and sexism will help us as individuals and a community. Help families friends coworkers and SOs in particular.

It certainly matches my struggles with self acceptance over the years.

So what do you think?

[curse within]

Look back in history with Martin Luther King as he held peacfull protest in the movement towards equal right's.

Showing empathys toward an un understanding person or person's (S.O. as an example in our case) in an intelligent and peacefull protest.

I have found that lashing out or showing violent rages only sets the original goals back. You can not force a change of lifestyle on anyone who feels the way of life belonging to them is threaten..

To take a step further in a goal, you must understand not only your cause but even more important the beliefs of others who may not ..

[deja true]

Gotta agree 100%, too.

That a marginalized group feels inferior is also due to the fact that the only lessons they've had in life are the lessons given them by their oppressors. If told a thousand times over the generations that you are inferior, then you start to believe it. The only cure for that is the courage of the early few in educating themselves in their own equality and getting that message out to the rest of the under-educated population.

In MLK's case, that self education came from school, his father and his experiences...but also from his (correct) interpretation of the Holy Word, an interpretation that he was talented enough and fired up enough to get the rest of his people and so many millions of others to understand and accept and embrace.

In our case, our own under-education, and resultant self-loathing, is quickly dissolving in the blossoming of the internet age. The simplest information, whether psychological, sociological or medical is not the secret territory of a handful of "specialists" any more. We all have access to it, can accept or refute it and use it to enlighten ourselves and profit from it.

See what we've all learned from the conversations and links in this forum alone? It amounts to a whole freekin' college education in gender issues if you've been paying attention!

I'm not the scared, guilt-ridden, self-hating closet tranny I was when I timidly logged on to this place the first time. I may be still closeted a bit in my RW life, but closeted or not, I'll just not stand for the ignorance of trans-, age-, sex- or any other form of phobia or discrimination in my life. Ever again! No more mister quiet guy!

Oops...sorry! Rant over, darlins...but you hit a chord with me, Batty...a good one...one that I'm proud of now!

Thanks!

:)

[Kate Simmons]

Not quite sure Batty. When I stopped thinking of it as abnormal and embraced being myself, it kind of went away on it's own.

[Teri Jean]

Arianna may be right in her assessment. As little as ten years ago I would have been opposed to living as a female or CD and would have been vocal to that point. At the same time I had the feeling that clothing typically female was somehow "comfortable and desireable".

Then as I started to understand why I felt that way and the "comfotable" feeling of my sexuallity and the desire to dress, I accepted this as normal for me. Now the day-to-day acceptance of other life styles has made me a more rounded and sensitive person.

We can help ourselves and the general public accept this life style and others by being ourselves. Thank you Batty for the thread and those who responded.

Keli

[Pink Person]

You can't remove social transphobia by scrubbing your mind of personal transphobia (if indeed you have done so). I suppose if you had a very large head it might cause a measurable decrease but only if you lived on a deserted island.

I agree with Batty.

[pattipurge]

Our shame, guilt, difficulty accepting ourselves as well as all the difficult feellings SOs must deal with... all caused by the acceptance largely unconciously of transphobia.

internalized transphobia? sorry, I simply don't buy it. why does everything have to have 'phobia' attached to it?

[Deedee Dupree]

That makes sense to me Batty, In retrospect, I identify with it. And very good rant Deja.

It may be the core issue... having an understanding of this theory may speed up the process for younger generations or late bloomers, at least I hope so.

But having come to terms prior to and being unaware of explanations like this, it is hard to say if internalized transphobia was the core issue/fear I had to deal with. I recall several of them(fears) running concurently... I became content with myself without much knowledge of theory. What ever terms I applied to the internal mechanisms at work didn't matter so much, it was more like dealing with the feelings directly(outside of the closet) without naming them. That make sense?

Anyway, One of the interesing things I am learning by hanging around here is a different way to think and talk about these issues... Now, I am able to make a better case outside of the forum when the opportunity arises.

"We are the victims of our deepest fears"

dd

[Gabrielle Hermosa]

That is an excellent observation and bit of research you bring up, battybattybats.

This is exactly the kind of thing I felt in my years of confusion and self-hatred... or more accurately put, one of many things going around in my head.

I see this behavior displayed in every "should I be concerned about..." and "am I being selfish..." and and especially any purging-related threads (from personal purging to purging to save the marriage, etc.)

It is always the same thing, worded differently. People are uncertain, display a sense of feeling wrong about their cding, and justify why they're feeling wrong about it or why they're purging (so as to make it ok and right to do so). The justification always seems routed in this exact explanation - internalised transphobia.

I've gotten to the point where I embrace and truly do love being who I am. Even so, there are moments here and there when I still experience this phenomenon. Because I constantly analyze my own feelings, I recognize this as residual garbage that has been put in my head over the years as a result of living in a society that has a big problem with transgender differences. Call it self-therapy, if you will. I can always purge these negative thoughts by asking myself why I have them in the first place. It's always about society's rules and expectations of men. But I choose to be myself regardless of those expectations. I will not live my life as half a man because some idiots in society have a problem with human realities. Life is too short for that garbage. I got to be me. That is the only way I'll ever be happy.

[Sheila]

internalized transphobia? sorry, I simply don't buy it. why does everything have to have 'phobia' attached to it?

Good question .............. I believe the word phobia is atteached to certain things when others cannot accept that others hold opposing views .......... call it a phobia and POW u get to beat it with a stick:sad:

[Nicki B]

Good question .............. I believe the word phobia is atteached to certain things when others cannot accept that others hold opposing views .......... call it a phobia and POW u get to beat it with a stick:sad:

Sheila, how do you regard people with misogynist, racist, or homophobic views? :idontknow:

Should they be allowed to keep others 'in their place'?


It's always seemed obvious to me that those with a transphobic attitude, either inside our community or outside it, are really expressing their internal anger, disgust and fear about themselves?

[pattipurge]

It's always seemed obvious to me that those with a transphobic attitude, either inside our community or outside it, are really expressing their internal anger, disgust and fear about themselves?
Sorry, but IMHO, that's a cop-out. It's just not that simple.

[cd_britney_426]

I would say to a large degree there is internalized -phobia in people. This can be transphobia or other types. The reason is that people in general have the tendency not to want to look at their own shortcomings or faults or even see their true selves at all. Just as the old saying goes, "when you point one finger, three fingers point back" people are quick to point out other people's faults or perceived faults because it is a way of distracting them from their own faults. Our culture conditions us to conform and people for the most part do everything they can to fit in. Therefore, a transphobic person may become very angry when simply passing by an actual transgender person on the street even though they are not trans themselves. The reason is that it causes them to question their own gender issues and even though they may have very minor gender variances themselves, the mere fact that they are now forced to look into themselves makes them uncomfortable. So ultimately, people are inclined to lash out at others in an attempt to run away from themselves. Britney

[battybattybats]

internalized transphobia? sorry, I simply don't buy it. why does everything have to have 'phobia' attached to it?

Ah well most of therse don't have phobia attached to them. Racism. Sexism. Ablism. Ageism etc.

But two have 'phobia' attached. Homophobia and Transphobia.

The explanations are actually simple.
While they could have called it Hetero-sexism and in fact the term does exist the 'phobia' is added because few women were murdered for just being women as a result of sexism but plenty of Gays were murdered for being Gay. So clearly there was an extra effect to Heterosexism than ordinary sexism, one involving an extra level of hate and violence.

Even racism with it's lynching was about keeping black people oppressed but not about killing random ones just to exterminate them.

And while Transphobia could be called Cis-sexism perhaps (though defining cissexual and cisgender is a work in progress http://questioningtransphobia.wordpress.com/2009/04/25/cis-is-not-an-academic-term/ ) there are far more murders of TG people (as I keep reminding folk it's mostly non-white TGs that face this extreme murder rate) meaning that it clearly is more than racism or sexism or ablism etc.

So only two things have 'phobia' attached to them. Because those are the two groups where at the time of their coining those groups suffered huge dissproportionate fear of assault and murder by strangers showing that the socially indoctrinated hatred and taboo of them is far far far worse than with racism or sexism even though both of those suffer ism-related violence.

Lik someone with arachnophobia rushing to kill and destroy a harmless spider that was easilly avoidable.

And as studies have shown that most of the worst homophobes are repressed gays and bis (using machines to measure unconcious physical sexual arrousal to homoerotic images that were a higher level of sexual arousal than out gays!) and the same is likely true of Transphobes it means that internalised homophobia and transphobia can be so bad as to lead a repressed gay or Cd to murder another un-repressed one!

Meaning that most of the people murdering our people are us, driven to it by their own internalised transphobia. Making socially indoctrinated transphobia, especially internalised transphobia, our true enemy.

[pattipurge]

Therefore, a transphobic person may become very angry when simply passing by an actual transgender person on the street even though they are not trans themselves. The reason is that it causes them to question their own gender issues and even though they may have very minor gender variances themselves, the mere fact that they are now forced to look into themselves makes them uncomfortable. So ultimately, people are inclined to lash out at others in an attempt to run away from themselves.
OR...certain people are just disgusted by anyone who is trans?
There doesn't have to be some deep seated psychological reason for it.
I think you're reading way too much into this.

[battybattybats]

OR...certain people are just disgusted by anyone who is trans?
There doesn't have to be some deep seated psychological reason for it.
I think you're reading way too much into this.

But that disgust has a cause. It doesn't just magically happen.

We know there are societies where TG is accepted. Such as Samoa (where they are a third sex prized for their abilities at housekeeping child rearing and are often young mens first sexual experience!) and Tonga (where they have special roles, a CD for example planned and officiated at the Royal Wedding a few years back!) and amongst the Native Americans (where they were believed to have special powers or great wisdom. One in fact met the USA President and lived for a week on the whitehouse lawn at the Presidents Invitation! in the 1800's)

We know that there are deep seated reasons behind homophobia. That 80% thats four in every 5 homophobes became sexually aroused when shown guy-on-guy erotic images! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8772014
Is homophobia associated with homosexual arousal?Adams HE, Wright LW Jr, Lohr BA.
Department of Psychology, University of Georgia, Athens 30602-3013, USA.

The authors investigated the role of homosexual arousal in exclusively heterosexual men who admitted negative affect toward homosexual individuals. Participants consisted of a group of homophobic men (n = 35) and a group of nonhomophobic men (n = 29); they were assigned to groups on the basis of their scores on the Index of Homophobia (W. W. Hudson & W. A. Ricketts, 1980). The men were exposed to sexually explicit erotic stimuli consisting of heterosexual, male homosexual, and lesbian videotapes, and changes in penile circumference were monitored. They also completed an Aggression Questionnaire (A. H. Buss & M. Perry, 1992). Both groups exhibited increases in penile circumference to the heterosexual and female homosexual videos. Only the homophobic men showed an increase in penile erection to male homosexual stimuli. The groups did not differ in aggression. Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies.


So then why should we expect Transphobia to be any different from Homophobia?

[pattipurge]

But that disgust has a cause. It doesn't just magically happen.
I think that's where you're wrong. Sometimes it does just happen. Certain people just don't like anyone who is trans. It's really that simple.
That certainly doesn't mean they're projecting any kind of internalized personal fear of their own. It just is what it is.

[Nicki B]

It's just not that simple.


Certain people just don't like anyone who is trans. It's really that simple.

Pardon? :strugglin

[pattipurge]

Reading this message, makes me wonder ... :daydreaming:

Makes you wonder what? if I have 'internalized transphobia' ? :doh:


Pardon? :strugglin

Two different comments cut & pasted from two different posts. Of course it makes no sense that way.

Whatever...
We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Sophie A Walker]

Originally Posted by pattipurge
Sometimes it does just happen. Certain people just don't like anyone who is trans. It's really that simple.
That certainly doesn't mean they're projecting any kind of internalized personal fear of their own.

Most of the evidence would undermine this argument, almost everyone convicted of an assault against another human being (not drafted into warfare) can be shown to have some internalised personal fear of their own. It may not be directly linked to the object of the attack but it exists. i.e. someone filled with self loathing due to abuse at the hands of a parent can direct that at another target, e.g. trans people.

The word transphobia has to be considered legitimate in the evolution of language, though based on the original meaning of the word phobia it is prehaps spurious, it has developed an accepted meaning among the majority of the population. This has happend to other words which we no longer question, e.g. Aweful, which now means something terrible, though itls literal meaning is 'something full of awe', and in the 15th and 16th centuries would have most often been used to refer to god.

So phobia does often seem to be used in odd ways compared to its original meaning, but that is the way language evolves.

[battybattybats]

I think that's where you're wrong. Sometimes it does just happen. Certain people just don't like anyone who is trans. It's really that simple.
That certainly doesn't mean they're projecting any kind of internalized personal fear of their own. It just is what it is.

Lets explore that shall we?

What other sources of fear/hatred are there?

Instinct? Humans have only one inborn fear instinct, the fear of falling. Some few lack it, many overcome it. That cultures throughout human history have been TG accepting and even considering TG people sacred and holy and had social political and/or financial advantage proves that transphobia is NOT an instinct.

Experience. Like my experience with a funnel web spider as a child which gave me a hatred for spiders for a time which i overcame a stressful expereince can cause fear or hatred. Have these people had traumatic experiences as children with TG people? Unlikely in the extreme! By all accounts TG people are the safest to have around children as it seems they are less often pedophiles even than Cis-women.

Psychological development of fear. Some people imagine themselves into fear states. People have developed phobias of animals they have never encountered directly in a tramatising fashion like sharks for example simply because they found a picture or documentary or movie frightening or an idea frightening, such as being devoured alive leads some to fear of predatory animals. Or a fear of rabies and incorrect association of danger leads people to be afraid of bats and love squirrels even though the squirrels are more likely to give you rabies and the bats, while some do carry rabies and lyssa and other viruses are busy eating mosquitos and protecting you from the many deadly and debilitating mosquito-borne illnesses and are far less a threat than the squirrels.

Taught Hatred. Some of which will influence or exagerate psychological development of hatred, such as some people taught to be anti-semites being more anti-semitic than others.

So, we can utterly rule out Instinct. That ones gone. We can rule traumatic experience as collosally unlikely, perhaps accounting for less than 1% of TG hatred at most as violence and sexual assualt by women is more common.

So we are left with psychological development and taught hatred as possibilities. This would account for much for example of the remaining 20% of homophobes that are not sexually aroused unconciously at gay porn. So 4 out of 5 gay-haters are really gay and the remaining 1 in 5 psychologically developed or were taught gay hatred.

As just like past eras were most Gays suffered the same closeting we do, and many still do, repression and internal struggle is a known comonent therefore we can expect that a similar 80%/20% split would well exist.

And the repression? It's cause is Internalised Transphobia isn't it? And those taught to hate? Societal and/or Environmental Transphobia? And the remaining psychological development? Would not the pervasive social transphobia that is so powerful that it causes the Internalised Transphobia be a substantial cause of or influence over the psychological development?

It seems an 'all roads lead to rome' thing, all our issues lead to transphobia.



The word transphobia has to be considered legitimate in the evolution of language, though based on the original meaning of the word phobia it is prehaps spurious, it has developed an accepted meaning among the majority of the population. This has happend to other words which we no longer question, e.g. Aweful, which now means something terrible, though itls literal meaning is 'something full of awe', and in the 15th and 16th centuries would have most often been used to refer to god.

So phobia does often seem to be used in odd ways compared to its original meaning, but that is the way language evolves.

Indeed and another example is Terrific which meant 'terrible and causing terror' which moved in the opposite direction to Aweful and became 'really good, wonderful, excellent'.

[Satrana]

Transphobia is the right word to use because we are talking about irrational fear. The fear that a heterosexual man puts on a dress which magically turns him gay or TS. That did not happen when women began wearing pants so the idea that it would do so with men is incredibly, dumbfoundingly stupid. Yet the idea exists and strikes fear into people.

The CD convinces himself that wearing a dress must mean something more than he just likes it and similarly the SO has the same thought. It is baseless and illogical but the unknown makes people afraid. When we cannot explain something or if something looks weird or unnatural then our imagination runs wild and we fear the worst.

And the consequences of transphobia whether in the CD or the SO is to suppress the CDing, limit the exposure to that we do not want to face.

One day society will wake up and say - a man in a dress, what is the big deal? what is there to be afraid of? it does not mean anything more than just a personal preference. Then all threads in this forum will look bizarre. Did people really live with such shame and fear. How strange.

[Fab Karen]

Most anger is a mask for fear. Simply saying "it is what it is" is a way to avoid thinking about it, in psychological terms, avoidance- "if I pretend it isn't there, it isn't there."

[battybattybats]

Sigh.
Have issues with the notions of knowledge and science?

Fine.

Lets imagine a duel, you can have anything that no words books or recorded knowledge contributed too and I can have anything that they did.

While your still debating how you can tell if steel counts or not or whether your stuck with just a bronze sword and how you can find out without consulting books to find out my intercontinental ballistic missile is nuking you out of existence.

Cause any notion that words and books and knowledge are useless is unfortunately proven false by what, 5 or so thousand years? Oh wait, rock-art was ways of passing knowledge between generations so thats 10's of thousands of years.

And the study i mentioned before about homophobes is not merely psychological theory.

They attached sensors to their bodies and showed them gay porn and got those results!

And that validated the existing theory.
And thats the same kind of scientific method that resulted in the A-bomb.

[Kelli Michelle]

I think that's where you're wrong. Sometimes it does just happen. Certain people just don't like anyone who is trans. It's really that simple.
That certainly doesn't mean they're projecting any kind of internalized personal fear of their own. It just is what it is.

THINGS sometimes just happen. But THINKING a certain way doesn't. Thought processes are built up by a combination of intelligence (or lack of), experience, learned behavior, etc. If one came out of the womb, and, assuming you had an adult brain, you immediately looked at a TG person, and thought "hmmm....that person is a sickpo, pervert, or just wrong..." than your idea might have some merit. But we don't come to conclusions in a vacuum. And there is no one who dislikes anything (much less a trans person) whithout there being some basis as for the reason why.

[pattipurge]

And there is no one who dislikes anything (much less a trans person) without there being some basis as for the reason why.
Ok, let's apply your same line of reason to the nazis and jews during WWII.
What was the basis for the nazis to hate the jews? There wasn't any.
Sometimes people just don't like you for no reason.
Sometimes it just is what it is.

[battybattybats]

Ok, let's apply your same line of reason to the nazis and jews during WWII.
What was the basis for the nazis to hate the jews? There wasn't any.
Sometimes people just don't like you for no reason.
Sometimes it just is what it is.

Nonsense!
The reasons the NAZIs hated the Jews are documented!
They were used as a political scapegoat and source of money by those higher ups and the populace followed from a mixture of believing propaganda lies about Jews including a popular fake document of their plotting to rule the world that came from Tsarist Russia as well as centuries upon centuries of anti-semitism much of it stemming from the days of the Inquisition and the writings of Luthor (who said that Jews who would not convert were a danger to christians and their homes should be burned down). And not to mention plain old fear of those in charge who were quite happy to murder and dissapear opponents.

There WERE reasons. Lies yes, but deliberate lies by a few believed by many...

[pattipurge]

Nonsense!
The reasons the NAZIs hated the Jews are documented!

oh my, I think we're spinning our wheels here. The point is - the jews did nothing and the nazis still hated and killed them. It's the same way some folks feel about transpeople.
They don't need any internalized angst or a reason to dislike them. They just do. It is what it is. Accept the things you cannot change.

[Fab Karen]

"They don't need any internalized angst or a reason to dislike them. They just do. It is what it is. Accept the things you cannot change. "
Imagine the backward society we'd have if that thinking was applied to black people, to women, to homosexuals, etc.

If you talk to an angry person awhile, once their anger lowers, & they think about it, they often realize their anger came out of being afraid of something- just ask the SO's of CD's for example.

[Nicki B]

If you can understand why someone behaves as they do, you can avoid them or may even change them.


(19 words, with a maximum of three syllables ;))

Knowledge is power.

[pattipurge]

If you can understand why someone behaves as they do, you can avoid them or may even change them.

Change them? oh wow, do you honestly believe that?

[deja true]

Understanding is what we want from others.

We're more likely to get that if we know what motivates both them and us.

This is how we get that understanding.... discussion!

Isn't this a discussion forum?

[Nicki B]

Change them? oh wow, do you honestly believe that?

Maybe you can't change everybody - but, one-on-one, you can certainly change some people's attitudes. I've seen it happen many times.

Have you ever tried?

[Carin]

I think the moderators should move this thread to the Academic forum. Oh wait, there is none. Sometimes I wish there was one.

Academic does not mean irrelevant. It means looking at the underlying phenomena behind a topic, even from an abstract point of view. There are clearly those who don't care for this, and those who find it very relevant. The labels issue is similar. There are those who find it pigeon-holing and restrictive, and those who need the language to try to understand the phenomenon.

There is a place for "Live your life as you see fit" and there is a place for academic discussion. Our social environment is heavily influenced by grass roots leaders, spiritual leaders and academics, whether you like it or not.

[flatlander_48]

internalized transphobia? sorry, I simply don't buy it. why does everything have to have 'phobia' attached to it?

As long as we are unconscious carriers, it will be with us because we've given tacit approval. And, don't be concerned about the word phobia. Think of it as sexism applied to transgendered people.


oh my, I think we're spinning our wheels here. The point is - the jews did nothing and the nazis still hated and killed them. It's the same way some folks feel about transpeople.
They don't need any internalized angst or a reason to dislike them. They just do. It is what it is. Accept the things you cannot change.

No, the Internalized part is for US, not them...

[battybattybats]

I used the atom-bomb comment to prove that simple logic destroys any argument that words and knowledge have no power or meaning or effect. As Atomic Science is built on just such.


oh my, I think we're spinning our wheels here. The point is - the jews did nothing and the nazis still hated and killed them. It's the same way some folks feel about transpeople.
They don't need any internalized angst or a reason to dislike them. They just do. It is what it is. Accept the things you cannot change.

The NAZIS spread and encouraged preexisting Antisemitism in the populace that had existed in germany for centuries. Completely analagous to Transphobia. Oh and internalised anti-semitism is a long-observed phenomena and was something considered very much by the founders of Psychology as many of them were European Jews.


Change them? oh wow, do you honestly believe that?

Lets see, a man who would have been lynched a century ago for being too outspoken or assasinated 50 years ago is instead the US President...

Yes, I honestly believe that cause its been done before. And cultures that held TG in high regard now have transphobia.. so it works both ways. And if society has been TG-accepting in the past it can be again.

[battybattybats]

Being one of the main activities of humanity and one that tends to get the new technology spent on it first whether it was steel or atmoic energy it makes sense. As well as the most obvious dissproportion of a bronze sword versus atomic explosion.

But if you prefer we could try intercontinental travel? I simply take a pre-existing jet, or a passenger liner, whose pilot or captain was trained via books and which was built via engineering degrees and centuries of improved knowledge from books while you try and work out how to make a stone or maybe if your lucky a bronze adze and hand carve a canoe from what you hope is the right kind of tree trunk then try and navigate across deep ocean without obvious landmarks and no book to tell you how to use the stars...

Either way my proof wins. Words are the basis of knowledge and knowledge is the basis of thousands of years of technology which works. Q.E.D.


My example was an analgous duel to test which worked best, something complicated done with the benefit of received accumulated and recorded knowledge and efforts of past people (ie words, books, science etc) or the idea that was worthless as you proposed.

It was not a threat nor saying I could 'take you out'. So no need to beat your chest about it, I just proved you were wrong I never actually threatened you. I surely am not about to compare our martial arts backgrounds and besides, I'm disabled thesedays anyways.



Why don't you consider considering and discussing the actual idea though?
I mean, words and books can't hurt you physically, only give you knew ideas to think about. And how can learning relevant things possibly be a waste of time when all the world, from the jet plane to the car to the computer to the net are all built on knowledge?

[ReineD]

Getting back to the idea of unconscious internalized transphobia being responsible for a host of ills ...

I agree, especially in relationships where as you say there is negotiation and unsatisfactory compromises as if permission should be sought or granted for self-expression. It makes perfect sense that UIT is responsible for the purging, the 'selfishness' issues, etc, although I'm not sure about it being responsible for the pink fog (when it comes to the shopping) :).

But what about the CDers and their SOs who accept who they are unconditionally but who also do not want to out themselves? Is UIT necessarily the culprit in their wish for privacy?

I am suggesting there are CDers who no longer believe, as the linked article says, in the 'negative stereotyping' of themselves but rather they and their SOs have come to an acceptance and even love of who they are. But, the CDer wishes to express herself just part of the time because he also enjoys his male life (or as in a post I made in another thread, she and her SO might be happy with living 24/7 but not transitioning). Or, it could be they've made the decision to express themselves far enough away from home because they are not willing to challenge their potentially transphobic co-workers, friends, or extended family. Perhaps they are unwilling to live with the potentially negative consequences or ostracism. And maybe these CDers and SOs are willing to live peacefully with their decision for privacy because again, the CDers enjoy their male lives and they want the best of both worlds?

Granted, in some threads here it seems as if there are very few CDers or couples such as I've just described, yet in other threads, there are many posts made my CDers who fit the model and who say they and their SOs are happy with their blended, private lives.

It is debatable.

[cd_britney_426]

I believe there is a middle ground. In some cases, a person's dislike towards someone or something simply has no real reason but just simply exists. You may like or dislike a type of music, style of clothing, and even certain types of people. Part of being human means we have preferences for things. However, dislike and aversion I consider to be two different things. While there may be no real reason someone dislikes someone or something, if they have an actual aversion to the thing or person to where emotions are attached, then there is always a reason. Since the person is now actually putting energy towards the thing they dislike, it is beyond mere preference but something that is actually disturbing to them. As in the case of the TG issue where there is nothing wrong scientifically with TG people, a lot of that aversion can simply be cured by education. Blacks in the U.S. have had less aversion culturally towards them as the decades have gone by as people have been more educated on the race issues. The same would apply to TG once more people are made aware of it. That still gives the right for non-blacks simply to prefer non-blacks for dating, social interactions, etc. as anyone has the right to choose what they like and don't but again that is different from actually being emotionally attached to something you like or dislike. Anyway, enough said. Britney

[Sheila]

I once had a tuor who said
"If you fail to understand what I am trying to teach, the failure is mine, not yours,................... it is my teaching that fails not your understanding" ............ one of the bests tutors I ever had He also said

"words are powerful tools & should be used with wisdom, & brevity, lest we bore others into not hearing them"

It may surprise many of you but in actual fact most of the world are too busy living to fear/love or like/dislike you as a group in anyway.


There will always be extremes in any area of life and it is usually the extremists who make the headlines, either for good or bad, & that includes the GBLT community, we are neither excempt nor remamrkable in our margins in comparisson to other groups

[Satrana]

Getting back to the idea of unconscious internalized transphobia being responsible for a host of ills ...

Thanks, the quest for ignorance was becoming overwhelming!


there are many posts made my CDers who fit the model and who say they and their SOs are happy with their blended, private lives. Happy in the context of living in a transphobic society, yes. Happy being unaware through lack of exploration that there are alternative arrangements, yes.

As you say it is debatable because we measure our happiness against what we observe in our peers. So people can be happy and content with many restrictions if they are comparing themselves to others. But fast forward a few decades to a more liberal society and these conditions would be considered intolerable.

How many women today could live with the restrictions women were held to 50 years ago? How many kids today would be happy living without video games?

So happiness is really about making do with what is available and being on a par with fellow peers. In this respect our transphobic society is already taken into account when CDs gauge how content they are with their setup. Or to paraphrase - this is as good as it gets.

[battybattybats]

It may surprise many of you but in actual fact most of the world are too busy living to fear/love or like/dislike you as a group in anyway.

Sure most of the world yes, but there's a significant enough number of people to have forced up to 10% of the population into the closet, destroy thousands of years of Transgender cultures and kill more African American Transwomen than strokes Heart Disease and Cancer combined.

Now unless there is something wrong with Rocket-Scientist and Computer Engineer Zoe Brain's and of course Microchip Pioneer Lynn Conways numbers and maths then thats a reality none of us can afford to keep our heads in the sand about.


There will always be extremes in any area of life and it is usually the extremists who make the headlines, either for good or bad, & that includes the GBLT community, we are neither excempt nor remamrkable in our margins in comparisson to other groups

Well except that many of us can be fired for being CDs even if we never do it at work while a Christian, Muslim, Jew or Satanist are protected from being fired for being those things. Same for Race too. and often more. There are quite a few places even where a Gay person cannot be fired for being Gay but a CD can be for ebing a CD.

That Transgender people suffer more risk of hate-crime violence than any other group yet are not covered by much hate crime legislation.

That TG people are dissproportionately homeless than cis-folk or gays.
Suffer more bullying at school.
Are forced to leave school early more often.
Are under-employed for the education level we attain too.

I think I've posted all the studies that back up those statements here at one time or another.

But its that murder-rate of non-withe TGs that really sticks in my craw.

Can you find another subset of American people whose main cause of death is murder?



But what about the CDers and their SOs who accept who they are unconditionally but who also do not want to out themselves? Is UIT necessarily the culprit in their wish for privacy?

Internalised perhaps not, but if there was no fear of External Transphobia what other possible reason could they have for hiding this?

If there had been no or very little transphobia then there would be no reason to ever have hid. No closet.

And do they have a responsibility to the next generation? To preventing the next generations internalised transphobia by fighting transphobia now?

Or to be blunt.

Aren't those who stand by and let Transphobia reign literally building the closets and the coffins of the crossdressers their childrens age?

Tonight I sat at a table of lawyers, professors and human rights advocates. Face to face. Wearing BYS 'Spiced Merlot' lipstick. And raised TG issues as well as others to the Human Rights Community Consultation. With a positive reaction.

I intend not to have blood on my hands. I am doing my best to take a hatchet to the closets and coffins of the next generation. But if others build more than I and others chop them up then won't those who stand by be responsible for failed marriages, ruined lives and suicides?

And again, you needn't be out to fight transphobia. Just be the kind of cis-person who stands up publicly against transphobia.

[Fab Karen]

This thread should be a "sticky" for this site.

[Tamara Croft]

I'm posting in this thread, because I am so sick of the complaints about it, sick of the arguing and sick of having to delete posts. This thread is causing more work for the mods than anywhere else on this board, so you can either tone it down or I'm locking it. This isn't up for debate and anyone wants to discuss this post, then do it via pm, because if you post in this thread about it, the thread will be locked.

Give it a rest already!

[battybattybats]

As I'd already been asked if my too-long post could be crossposted to other sites outside this forum for the rest of the broader community before it was deleted for it's excessive length I have since the deletion placed it here so it solves the length issue. http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/10730/internalised-oppresion-transphobia-and-internalised-transphobia

[Nicki B]

It seems to me that the [-]high number of deletions[/-] angst that has been evident in this thread indicates that 'Internalised Transphobia' is alive and kicking - hard. :sad:

[Fab Karen]

I think crossdressers differ from transsexuals because they love the adrenaline. And after the adrenaline there is remorse. The love affair the cross-dresser has doesn't climax. It just kind of haunts you.
Many of us aren't sexual fetishists. No remorse for being what we are. Thank god for making us this way- a thing to celebrate.

[battybattybats]

I have a bad pituitary that wreaks havoc with the "fight or flight response" in my endocrine system. There are no more sabre-toothed tigers or giant cave-bears, but there are plenty of low-cut dresses that show off plenty of cleavage and set off my internalized machinery to a kind of secret sex-in-public non-event, that is an event, ya know? Two Worlds.
I think crossdressers differ from transsexuals because they love the adrenaline. And after the adrenaline there is remorse. The love affair the cross-dresser has doesn't climax. It just kind of haunts you.

Actually i think the adrenaline rush more likely comes from the internal struggle with internalised transphobia. As self acceptance grows plenty report the rush goes but they still CD. So the CDing is there from the beginning and is seperate from the rush.


Many of us aren't sexual fetishists. No remorse for being what we are. Thank god for making us this way- a thing to celebrate.

Yep, step 2. in overcoming Internalised Oppression
2. Take pride in and celebrate culture. Learn about and celebrate your own culture, and learn about others as well. Placing your own culture in a world context can help you understand its development and value.


Or in our case celebrate not just the many TG cultures throughout history right to the present day but also all of who and what er are.

We need to start learning to take pride in being Transgender. To lay the blame for our Internalised Opression firmly at the feet of the external Transphobic culture we grew up in and start letting go of the guilt, self hate and shame.

[battybattybats]

Okay, then,let me veer off in another direction. You young'ns may not have seen "Easy Rider" but I saw it at the Drive-in when it was new. Hippies vs. Rednecks. The hippies wanted to be left alone to do their thing but the rednecks wouldn't let them. Now every country music band looks like hippies.

And before hippies it was beatniks and before them it was the romantics and on it goes. And everyone classes them all as hippies these days, ignoring the many other groups, the yippies, the yappies, the trippies andmore subsets and often antagonised groups. The importance of the Yippies and other very active hippies political and cultural activism is often ignored and forgotten but the hippies used street theatre as a political weapon from the outset. Those who lived on communes and ran away from society were a small minority.


Adolf Hitler transformed a beaten, wandering, depression era Germany into a Proud Third Reich, flooded with patriotism.

Pre-war Germany was also filled with progressive movements, like the GLBT movement and much greater tolerance and acceptance and the studies into TS that led to the worlds forst SRS clinic and pro CD (then referred to as Transvestite) doctors! Also prewar Germany was doing very well in the sciences, thats why there was real concern of a Nazi A-bomb (luckily as most of the vital physicists were Jewish their racism slowed down thier progress) and why Nazi rocketry and other technology was so advanced. Pre war germany had many advances and advantages to it.

And that patriotism was built on fear. Fear of violent thugery, of dissapearances of dissidents, of being firebombed like the worlds first SRS clininc, of murder. And it was built on deliberate scapegoating of Jews, Homosexuals, Transvestites, Gypsies and Foreigners. Don't forget the Pink Triangles.


Now everyone hates nazis.

Everyone hates Nazis because they typified ruling through fear and internal violance and bigotry. Because they took American forced-sterilisation Eugenics practices far further, took the British invention of the Concentration Camp which had worked so well against Africans and then started genocide, slaughtering people as it took less time and effort than sterilising and enabled the seizure of even more assets.


Jesus said the heaven was like a dewdrop on the sea, the ultimate seperation of External and Internal forces. But that you could only have heaven on earth by loving your neighbor, in other words, accept yourself by accepting the faces that sneer at you.

1. that was not unique, plenty of other religions and philosophies said so previously (Daoism, Confucianism, Bhuddism, Jainism and more)

2. religious discussion is not only a no-no outside the general thread but as we live in a world with multiple religions and not everyone here is christian it is meningless and senseless to bring it up for them so to have a meaningful discussion it will have to be secularly relevant.


So I guess what I'm trying to say if wearing a dress and being proud, if that's the goal, that's cool.

Actually the goal is to undo the internalised opression we each have absorbed that eats away at us like a cancer and causes most of the problems discussed on this forum like hiding things from wives etc.

The pride is an antidote to the shame and guilt we are trained to impose on ourselves by being taught that being a CD is wrong and shamefull. By being able to say that being a CD is good, worthy, valid, positive and the like we are counteracting the feellings we are taught that it is not so. And we are able to help counteract those fellings in others also struggling with shame and guilt and self-hate.


But that's only part of who you are.

And its the part we are taught to feel shame about and which we hide and which we try to pretend is NOT really a part of who we are. So by acknowledging it as an Essential, Indivisiable and Important part of who we are we counteract that.


PRIDE itself must fall eventually.

Sigh, the biblical teaching is about Pride-as-Arrogance not Pride-as-Self-Respect-and-Self-Worth. Language changes and biblical translations often do not.


As long as you dig your phobia, it's going to hang around.

Nope, as long as we ignore it, dissmiss it or try to pretend it has a less effect than it really does then it will stick around, piling up under the carpet and making us all sick. Instead we need to acknowledge it regularly and counteract it actively.


In the great American melting pot, blacks didn't melt.

Your right, because the analogy was poor to begin with. Instead they have struggled their way upwards and now one is President, all the while maintaining black cultures and identities and with each black person having the freedom to take as much of those cultures as they wish and to be as free from those cultures as they wish too.

They have been dealling with Internalised Racism, they still are, its not an issue that has gone away, but where they have been able to understand it and discuss it and face it they have substantially reduced it.

[Nicki B]

Internalized fear doesnt need crossdressing to exist. It's been around thousands of years.

CDing has been around just as long, too.



Outside this circle, the vast majority of average folks consider a crossdresser a fruit or wack-o.

That is absolutely NOT my experience, in educated first-world places. But many of us continue to maintain it is so, because so many (certainly on here, apparently) believe it (want to belive it?).

THAT is precisely internalised transphobia, surely?

[Jenny Brown]

That is absolutely NOT my experience, in educated first-world places. But many of us continue to maintain it is so, because so many (certainly on here, apparently) believe it (want to belive it?).

THAT is precisely internalised transphobia, surely?
I think maybe we need to remember that the posters on this forum are from all over the world. Maybe it's not like that in the UK or Australia, but there are places in the US where cd's are definitely considered freaks and perverts.

[flatlander_48]

Your right, because the analogy was poor to begin with. Instead they have struggled their way upwards and now one is President, all the while maintaining black cultures and identities and with each black person having the freedom to take as much of those cultures as they wish and to be as free from those cultures as they wish too.

This is a significant part as the dominant culture will try to force/coerce/cajole Black people and other racial minorities into believing that they have to assimilate to get along. Many in the dominant culture have lost (or purposefully removed themselves) their cultural roots. As a result, they don't understand the importance.


They have been dealling with Internalised Racism, they still are, its not an issue that has gone away, but where they have been able to understand it and discuss it and face it they have substantially reduced it.

ALL True.

To come back to this discussion, the construct is the same regardless of which ism you are talking about. If you get enough external messages (overt or subliminal) that crossdressing is wrong or that those who crossdress are deranged in some way, it becomes very easy to believe the press. Once you believe that there is something wrong with you, the external messages are no longer necessary. It's just how it works...

And think about this: How does it happen that closeted LGBT out others or work at crosspurposes to the LGBT rights movement? Can you imagine the loathing and low esteem that brings one to do these acts?

[battybattybats]

CDing has been around just as long, too.

And vital to this discussion it was accepeted and respected and esteemed in America prior to Invasion and Australia prior to Invasion. Those countries have only a few/couple centuries of Transphobia. Polynesia too and there in Samoa and Tonga CDs still are respected and part of life. Transphobia was imposed over these peoples, over Europe, over the Islamic World, over Africa, over Asia, over India... all these places had TG acceptance in at least some parts and often large parts within the last 1000 years and many merely 1 to 4 centuries ago.

So Transphobia has only newly become dominant in the world. Taught and enforced by laws! The bravest of TGs, the strongest and bravest TSs and Gay CDs (Drag Queens) undid most of those laws in the Western world a generation ago. But the internalised Transphobia and the social side of the External Transphobia (and still plenty of discriminatory laws) live on till we undo it.


That is absolutely NOT my experience, in educated first-world places. But many of us continue to maintain it is so, because so many (certainly on here, apparently) believe it (want to belive it?).

THAT is precisely internalised transphobia, surely?

There is real severe dangers of violence to some (based on income, region and skin-colour), bullying of TG kids at school and more, but for most of us here the risk is less... thats precisely how the violent part of transphobia works, those most vulnerable are attacked and the rest of us hide in terror when the threat to us is minimal. Text-book terrorism.


I think maybe we need to remember that the posters on this forum are from all over the world. Maybe it's not like that in the UK or Australia, but there are places in the US where cd's are definitely considered freaks and perverts.

There are places that are better and worse in Australia too. But things will not change if people do not change them.


Yeah, Nicki, in the US if you wear pink panties in a High School Gym class, your life is OVER. By fifth period. In Europe things are a bit different, much cooler.

And yet some CDs are open and out in High School! One town elected an out CD as Mayor.


This is a significant part as the dominant culture will try to force/coerce/cajole Black people and other racial minorities into believing that they have to assimilate to get along. Many in the dominant culture have lost (or purposefully removed themselves) their cultural roots. As a result, they don't understand the importance.

Indeed, but the culture incorporates Racism.. for example a black person who is academic is often considered 'acting white' because much of African American Academic culture is dismissed because they internalised the idea that intellectualism was not part of their culture... and yet Africa had great advanced civilisations with high degrees of sciences, not that schoolkids get taught about them. Like the Mali Empire http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire which contained the legendary Timbuktu, one of the greatest Universities and Libraries of the World!

That this is not taught is an important example for us in this discussion!
A major part of the way oppression gets internalised is not just direct messages but also by absences. Kids at school are taught about empires and kingdoms of white folk or white-looking folk foremost. Important women from science, mathematics and politics throughout history are not taught. Where are the Crossdressers of history in school teachings? Where are the positve CD characters in childrens tv shows?

Absences, gaping holes in what people are taught and shown is part of the production of both Internalised and Social Transphobia.


To come back to this discussion,

Actually I think examples of other groups internalised issues is vital for us understanding our own and so needed in this discussion rather than being off-topic.


the construct is the same regardless of which ism you are talking about. If you get enough external messages (overt or subliminal) that crossdressing is wrong or that those who crossdress are deranged in some way, it becomes very easy to believe the press. Once you believe that there is something wrong with you, the external messages are no longer necessary. It's just how it works...

Absolutely. Once TG culture was expunged from most peoples experience in the past we went from a part of ordinary everyday life to the scary unknown. We were 'othered'. To ourselves and to others.


And think about this: How does it happen that closeted LGBT out others or work at crosspurposes to the LGBT rights movement? Can you imagine the loathing and low esteem that brings one to do these acts?

We also need to look at the little ways we all may show some internalised Transphobia. The way we may pull others down when they need guidance and support. The way we may avoid our own responsibilities or even actively discourage others attempts to fight Transphobia or reduce oppression and discrimination.

[Nicki B]

I think maybe we need to remember that the posters on this forum are from all over the world. Maybe it's not like that in the UK or Australia, but there are places in the US where cd's are definitely considered freaks and perverts.


Yeah, Nicki, in the US if you wear pink panties in a High School Gym class, your life is OVER. By fifth period. In Europe things are a bit different, much cooler.

So... Would you describe where you live as 'educated first world places', then? :strugglin

IME you can't treat the US as just one country, it's at least three (the bit on the left, the bit on the right and the bit in the middle :( )


If you get enough external messages (overt or subliminal) that crossdressing is wrong or that those who crossdress are deranged in some way, it becomes very easy to believe the press. Once you believe that there is something wrong with you, the external messages are no longer necessary. It's just how it works...

[Jenny Brown]

So... Would you describe where you live as 'educated first world places', then? :strugglin

You mean as opposed to a third world country? Well yes, but that certainly does not mean there is wide acceptance for cd's in the USA. Maybe in select areas like NYC, and some other big cities, but not all over the US.

[Nicki B]

You mean as opposed to a third world country?

Didn't you leave out a key word? ;)

[Jenny Brown]

Didn't you leave out a key word? ;)
what? educated? You mean are people educated where I live?
Yes, about the same as most other places.:doh:

[flatlander_48]

IME you can't treat the US as just one country, it's at least three (the bit on the left, the bit on the right and the bit in the middle)

I understand your logic, but it is hard to do in practice. The 3 groups that you mention are intermingled and not distinct. The boundaries are not clear because there aren't any...

[ReineD]

Internalised perhaps not, but if there was no fear of External Transphobia what other possible reason could they have for hiding this?

If there had been no or very little transphobia then there would be no reason to ever have hid. No closet.

And do they have a responsibility to the next generation? To preventing the next generations internalised transphobia by fighting transphobia now?

Or to be blunt.

Aren't those who stand by and let Transphobia reign literally building the closets and the coffins of the crossdressers their childrens age?

Which closet are you speaking of? The very deep closet TGs are reluctant to come out of for fear of telling their SOs, or the wish for privacy (at differing levels) that many CDing couples choose to maintain.

I do understand that internalized transphobia (ITP) along with the negative self-images it engenders is the result of the bias and oppression encountered in our society. I also understand how important it is to confront the stereotypes in order to come out of the closet with loved ones and help them to understand that CDing does not have a bearing on personal worth. I agree this is the first area that should be addressed before turning the attention outward to the community at large.

My SO and I frequently go out in the mainstream as do many other couples like us and we do make a statement by the mere fact that we are visible. Many CDers also do belong to CD support groups, as your article suggests on pamshouseblend.com. My SO belongs to such a group and we've both attended the meetings. She also has attended GLBT parades and I plan on attending the next one with her. We both count TGs among our friends and we both reach out to the TGs who are deeper in the closet than we are. As to pointing out discrimination when we encounter it, I and undoubtedly countless others do this whether the issue is race, religion, culture or gender. Also, I've no doubt that TG parents do talk to their children about bias and oppression and they do foster attitudes of acceptance and respect for all differences.

I believe this is enough for most people and I caution against inadvertently making the CDers feel as if, by not speaking to their children's schools or publicly in any other groups about the need for sensitivity towards transness, they are contributing to the continued oppression of future generations of CDers.

Your comparisons of women's and black's oppression to the plight faced by the TG community are good and history does provide us with valuable examples on ways in which to make headway towards greater understanding and acceptance, but you do not account for the difference in sheer numbers and that women and blacks form a very visible part of our society. TGs do not unless they are out, nor for this reason is it easy for them to unite publicly since their numbers are significantly lower than the other groups, especially those of us who live in rural areas.

Although TSs do come out to the public and some have been on the news, this is not for everyone, especially the CDers who are raising children and have families to feed or who love family members (such as older parents) whom they believe cannot learn to change their attitudes in their lifetimes. Not every one will have the inclination to publicly champion the cause since CDers cannot by themselves rid an entire society's insensitivity towards transness and they do not wish to suffer the potential negative consequences of outing themselves. Also these same CDers may be perfectly happy with dressing anytime at home and going out several times per week in areas where they do not risk outing themselves to people whom they do not wish to disclose the CDing. If this is not enough and they wish to live as women full time, then perhaps they need to redefine their self-identification and examine some alternatives, perhaps transitioning to living full time.

If the issue is to rid society's view of binary gender in order to allow for a broader understanding of blended or trans genders then wouldn't CDers need to be persuaded to no longer present solely en femme and present themselves as they are, a blended combination of both genders? There would need to be a complete acceptance of the self (and eradication of ITP) in order for this to happen, I should think.

I believe it is more realistic for CDers to face their fears and come out to their wives, or choose accepting GGs to build their lives with if they are single, and together they may choose the level of openness to each other and the rest of society that works for them. If they do this, they will surely have faced their own ITP despite the externalized transphobia that is out there.

I very much appreciate that you brought this up and I hope this thread will help the CDers come out who are still in the closet with their wives, also the SOs who have difficulties supporting their husbands' needs to express themselves, and will give those who do not go out the courage to do so.
:hugs:




So happiness is really about making do with what is available and being on a par with fellow peers. In this respect our transphobic society is already taken into account when CDs gauge how content they are with their setup. Or to paraphrase - this is as good as it gets.

Unfortunately, for the majority of the CDers and their SOs this will remain the status quo until laws are changed because the few whose life circumstances and inclinations enable them to publicly advocate for the cause.
:love:

[battybattybats]

Which closet are you speaking of? The very deep closet TGs are reluctant to come out of for fear of telling their SOs, or the wish for privacy (at differing levels) that many CDing couples choose to maintain.

The former. For if the former did not exist the likely neither would the latter. The CD would have been out before the marriage, the GG would never feel betrayed and/or tricked into a relationship with the CD, neither would feel that it was something that was needed to be kept hidden.


I do understand that internalized transphobia (ITP) along with the negative self-images it engenders is the result of the bias and oppression encountered in our society. I also understand how important it is to confront the stereotypes in order to come out of the closet with loved ones and help them to understand that CDing does not have a bearing on personal worth. I agree this is the first area that should be addressed before turning the attention outward to the community at large.

For us now, we must begin to confront the personal and relationship Transphobia. But for the community we must confront all transphobia. To do that we must confront the personal to be able to do something about it. Once a start is made on the internal we can start on the external and the two progress together.


My SO and I frequently go out in the mainstream as do many other couples like us and we do make a statement by the mere fact that we are visible.

That helps but it's only the beginning. There have been small numbers of out CDs for centuries, yet the Transphobia has been increasing not decreasing over the last several centuries. Since the first public SRS cases and the few brave out CDs who tried to make a difference by speaking out publicly from Virginia Price to Ed Wood there has been some changes. Slow changes. Even the late Virginia Prince who did a lot of good despite her transphobia towards Transsexuals which is fairly criticised said
Summing things up, Virginia mentioned we needed, "to get involved, in whatever fashion." http://transpolitical.blogspot.com/2009/05/virginia-prince-passing-of-trans-icon.html


Many CDers also do belong to CD support groups, as your article suggests on pamshouseblend.com. My SO belongs to such a group and we've both attended the meetings. She also has attended GLBT parades and I plan on attending the next one with her. We both count TGs among our friends and we both reach out to the TGs who are deeper in the closet than we are. As to pointing out discrimination when we encounter it, I and undoubtedly countless others do this whether the issue is race, religion, culture or gender. Also, I've no doubt that TG parents do talk to their children about bias and oppression and they do foster attitudes of acceptance and respect for all differences.

Many here do, many here do not do any of these things. And with projections of population suggesting CDs outnumber gays and lesbians it seems rather likely that most do not.


I believe this is enough for most people and I caution against inadvertently making the CDers feel as if, by not speaking to their children's schools or publicly in any other groups about the need for sensitivity towards transness, they are contributing to the continued oppression of future generations of CDers.

But if we are comparable in numbers to Gays and Lesbians then we are not doing enough. A precious minority of our community is doing all the hard work and most are doing nothing to help. We do by inaction have a responsibility to the consequences. If we do not help the next generation of TG kids some will die! http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do;jsessionid=284C30E367248C8A69711BF9FE 54FFA0?diaryId=9964 pdf of full study report http://www.glsen.org/binary-data/GLSEN_ATTACHMENTS/file/000/001/1375-1.pdf

If you know something is happening and have the power to stop it or minimise it no matter how minutely and choose not to you become responsible for the harm caused by your inaction.


Your comparisons of women's and black's oppression to the plight faced by the TG community are good and history does provide us with valuable examples on ways in which to make headway towards greater understanding and acceptance, but you do not account for the difference in sheer numbers and that women and blacks form a very visible part of our society.

No, I do. Population estimates of CDs range from 2 to 10% of population. What can that be compared to I wonder?
The 30 June 1996 estimate of the Indigenous population represents 2.1 per cent of the total Australian population.
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mediareleasesbyTopic/82899485EB8FF4DDCA2568A900136288?OpenDocument


Black or African-American Population for the United States by Region, 2002
Percent of
total population 12.7%
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0884133.html

So for numbers we are very much the equivalent of minorities that have come far. Not so long ago Aborignal Australians were legally native animals!


TGs do not unless they are out, nor for this reason is it easy for them to unite publicly since their numbers are significantly lower than the other groups, especially those of us who live in rural areas.

Something Gays also faced. Yet they have made massive progress in the last 40 years unlike us. Why? Enough of them started getting active, Enough started coming out, gradually and carefully as they became safer. There was also some radicals who started outing people against their will, but thats something I think is only ethical if the person makes publicly phobic comments or votes against their own peoples issues.

What about their numbers?
Australia

2003: The largest and most thorough survey in Australia to date was conducted by telephone interview with 19,307 respondents between the ages of 16 and 59 in 2001/2002. The study found that 97.4% of men identified as heterosexual, 1.6% as gay and 0.9% as bisexual. For women 97.7% identified as heterosexual, 0.8% as lesbian and 1.4% as bisexual. Nevertheless, 8.6% of men and 15.1% of women reported either feelings of attraction to the same sex or some sexual experience with the same sex. Half the men and two thirds of the women who had same-sex sexual experience regarded themselves as heterosexual rather than homosexual. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_sexual_orientation

If both Aboriginals and Gays can do it then so can we!


Although TSs do come out to the public and some have been on the news, this is not for everyone, especially the CDers who are raising children

Genetic evidence suggests that those children may be carrying a greater chance of being TG or having TG kids.


and have families to feed or who love family members (such as older parents) whom they believe cannot learn to change their attitudes in their lifetimes.

An issue faced by interracial couples, by women who wanted an education or career... these are not troubles unique to our community.


Not every one will have the inclination to publicly champion the cause since CDers cannot by themselves rid an entire society's insensitivity towards transness and they do not wish to suffer the potential negative consequences of outing themselves.

Gays have managed pretty well. So then so can we. Currently our community is riddled with apathy and cowardise. But the bullet we dodge strikes a more vulnerable younger child. An Angie Zapata or a Letitia (Lawrance) King. Where an Adult couple has a greater chance of being safe and losing less children are dying.


Also these same CDers may be perfectly happy with dressing anytime at home and going out several times per week in areas where they do not risk outing themselves to people whom they do not wish to disclose the CDing. If this is not enough and they wish to live as women full time, then perhaps they need to redefine their self-identification and examine some alternatives, perhaps transitioning to living full time.

Much can be done within the closet, but few here do those things. And we all have a responsibility to our community. One we are shirking for our own comfort and lazyness.


If the issue is to rid society's view of binary gender in order to allow for a broader understanding of blended or trans genders then wouldn't CDers need to be persuaded to no longer present solely en femme and present themselves as they are, a blended combination of both genders? There would need to be a complete acceptance of the self (and eradication of ITP) in order for this to happen, I should think.

There are plenty of GenderQueer or GenderFree people. Our community needs to accept those (often they get criticised by portions of it). Each person should be themselcves, express as much or little gender diversity as fits them whether thats trying to pass or not.


I believe it is more realistic for CDers to face their fears and come out to their wives, or choose accepting GGs to build their lives with if they are single, and together they may choose the level of openness to each other and the rest of society that works for them. If they do this, they will surely have faced their own ITP despite the externalized transphobia that is out there.

And that way children will die. And many CDs will fail to overcome their ITP even enough to come out to their wives and the next generation will have another lot of ITPic kids deeply closeted who won't come out to their wives. We, now, choose to either break this pattern or to make it continue.

Our decisions aren't just for us, or our relationships, but for the entire community. We have a responsibility to it. And individually we have to accept that relying on a few brave souls to do all the education, all the legislation, all the lobbying for us will not be enough. That we will all have blood on our hands unless we do what previous generations of other groups have done!

Doing whats right for our comfort or relationships is often doing whats wrong for the kids growing up relying on us to make a difference. And being out is not the be all end all. Closeted folk can be involved in ending injustice and supporting positive media representations that reach more people than being out locally will.


I very much appreciate that you brought this up and I hope this thread will help the CDers come out who are still in the closet with their wives, also the SOs who have difficulties supporting their husbands' needs to express themselves, and will give those who do not go out the courage to do so.
:hugs:

I hope so too.


Unfortunately, for the majority of the CDers and their SOs this will remain the status quo until laws are changed by the few whose life circumstances and inclinations enable them to publicly advocate for the cause.
:love:

Many of those laws have already been changed by the courageous few in the last generation. I doubt it's the real issue, but ITP is. And some of those laws are being rolled back! We as a community are failling, dropping the ball. And every single closeted CD able to use the internet and capable of voting and with a job can help. But most do not appear to do so.

The result is Dead Children. Children we could save.

[Fab Karen]

"If the issue is to rid society's view of binary gender in order to allow for a broader understanding of blended or trans genders then wouldn't CDers need to be persuaded to no longer present solely en femme and present themselves as they are, a blended combination of both genders? There would need to be a complete acceptance of the self (and eradication of ITP) in order for this to happen, I should think."

There are plenty of GenderQueer or GenderFree people. Our community needs to accept those (often they get criticised by portions of it). Each person should be themselves, express as much or little gender diversity as fits them whether thats trying to pass or not.

Batty has made a good point- as an analogy, a bisexual person shouldn't hide the fact in order to further the gay cause, but instead be themselves &, the important part, openly show the complete honest picture of diversity ( not hiding their same-gender attraction ).

[Marlena-4now]

but that certainly does not mean there is wide acceptance for cd's in the USA. Maybe in select areas like NYC, and some other big cities, but not all over the US.
In the words of Niclole Kidman in Australia," Just because that's the way things are doesn't mean that's the way things ought to be." ....We don't have to buy in to or accept the general non-acceptance and discrimination. We can try to change it, and we should. Try, that is.

[battybattybats]

In the words of Niclole Kidman in Australia," Just because that's the way things are doesn't mean that's the way things ought to be." ....We don't have to buy in to or accept the general non-acceptance and discrimination. We can try to change it, and we should. Try, that is.

Indeed. Because it helps us and because it helps others.

Many sources of information say there is a high suicide rate, especially for those who try to 'quit'.

So then Transphobia kills.

So doesn't every one of us have a responsibility to ourselves, our community, to the CD kids growing up right now, to take the steps to fight Transphobia within ourselves and outside of ourselves?

[Fab Karen]

This is one of the most important threads on this site. Great job, Batty.