Female vs Male Acceptance?

[AKAMichelle]

I noticed something last night when I went out to a movie that I have seen many times before, but it never hit me like last night.

I am talking about how women act toward us versus men. Men for some reason have their maleness threatened for some reason by being around a gay man or a T-Girl. Women for some reason see no threat and joke with us as an equal.

Last night I got behind 3 women in their early 20's in the line to buy tickets. They noticed me because I saw one of them turn and look at me. We were going to see the same movie which bothered me a little. (Some Fear) I know I shouldn't, but I still feel that twing sometimes and this was one of them. So we got our popcorn and I ended up in the theater first. When they walked in they turned to me and talked a little about how empty the theater was. They knew that I was a crossdresser, but they talked. Guys just give you that evil eye and ignore you.

I have also noticed that I can get women to go places with me as Michelle, but never a guy. It is just so different how the 2 sexes deal with crossdressers.

[<3 Keri Lynn <3]

Also the age gap! I only joke <3


*Hugs*Kisses*

[Sophia de la luz]

I would say an equal percentage of my male friends and female ones are open and willing to be around me enfemme. One male friend has gone out with me a couple of times. It's all fun.

[denise-x]

Yes I have found the same thing. Women are more tolerant and accepting to us TG gals.

I have many gg friends who treat me as an equal, but, when I'm with my male friends I can't dress as they always have nasty remarks about TG's
:love:

[tricia_uktv]

End of sentence.

Love it Katie. But then they haven't been brought up having to be male. Were all different but its certainly far easier coming out to girls. I should know, I'm doing it all the time :)

[Hope]

Yes I have found the same thing. Women are more tolerant and accepting to us TG gals.

I have many gg friends who treat me as an equal, but, when I'm with my male friends I can't dress as they always have nasty remarks about TG's
:love:

You are right, but that can be a teachable moment.

When one of your friends makes some joke, you can ask him to explain why the joke is funny, forcing him to out himself as being intolerant of others.

Or you can just shrug your shoulders and say something like "Hey, everyone has their thing, right?" or "Who is she hurting?"

If we don't stand up for what we believe in - how can we expect others to?

[Brina Halloween]

I have noticed the same for the most part. A few ladies are uncomfortable, but it is more pronounced with men.

I still laugh to think about the night before Halloween, a guy I know just could not speak. I am suspicious that from a distance I was not read...and perhaps a few guys were thinking of asking me to dance :o

Brina

[Fab Karen]

I am talking about how women act toward us versus men. Men for some reason have their maleness threatened for some reason by being around a gay man or a T-Girl. Women for some reason see no threat and joke with us as an equal.
.

I have also noticed that I can get women to go places with me as Michelle, but never a guy. It is just so different how the 2 sexes deal with crossdressers.
Phobia. They think they can "catch" it by proximity, or being seen with such people, why, people might assume they're gay (gasp). That's not an issue for guys secure about themselves. If anyone asked or said anything to that regard, they'd calmly say something like,"nope. Not my thing."
( of course I don't need to mention sincere admirers don't have such issues either )

[Carly D.]

When I buy something of the female clothing I try to get checked out by an older lady.. they tend to have only one thing on their mind and that is getting out!!.. the younger ones, girls especially, seem to form an opinion about me.. the boys don't seem to either younger or older.. they seem to have the same could care less attitude that the older women have... I used to dread paying for the clothes at the checkout but now I really like it.. I get to see what people might be thinking.. and the other day when I was wearing my heels I got to see it right up and close.. the little girl formed an opinion right away.. I could tell she thought I was instantly a weirdo, one of those people.. those people being gay or freaky or just plain yyyyyiiikkeee (iky).. something that she would just shudder and go wash her hands.. whatever baby, all I can say there's a lot more weirdness in the world then the roses and daisy's you are used to..

[MissConstrued]

Hmm... maybe I just hang around some weird people, but the guys don't treat me any differently. The comments change a bit... in drag, I'll get greeted with a "hey, sexy!" or in drab, I'll get "you're not as much fun to stare at this way!" And yeah, these are straight guys... but we all make light of everything, and it's all in good fun.

As for meeting new people when I'm out, girls are easy either way. With guys, when I explain that yes, in fact, I like girls, the reaction runs from a noticeable increase in their comfort level, to disappointment... but I've not really seen any hackles up. Gay guys will usually be more distant.

But like I said, maybe it's the type of people I'm around... or maybe my age group. I guess I have been in a comfort zone, and maybe it's time to leave it a bit, and see what happens if I go to a movie by myself or something.

[Susan G]

I haved discussed this issue with my therapist. She agrees with me it is much safer to go to female salesperson's/cashiers. I also find it more enjoyable to be served by female employees. :battingeyelashes:

[KimberlyJo]

Hmm... maybe I just hang around some weird people, but the guys don't treat me any differently. The comments change a bit... in drag, I'll get greeted with a "hey, sexy!" or in drab, I'll get "you're not as much fun to stare at this way!" And yeah, these are straight guys... but we all make light of everything, and it's all in good fun.

Yeah I think you're right, you hang out with weird people. I'd like to find some weird people like that to hang out with :)

[kellycan27]

I think that I tend to get treated better by the guys. Though some look a bit puzzled while doing so.:laughing:

[MissConstrued]

Yeah I think you're right, you hang out with weird people. I'd like to find some weird people like that to hang out with :)


Well, go find them! Hang around Ren Faires and drink mead with the strangest lot of them you can find. Sign up with the SCA and thump heads with wooden swords. Use your imagination, and think of something for a common interest. Weirdos are everywhere.

[Ralph]

Well, go find them! Hang around Ren Faires and drink mead with the strangest lot of them you can find. Sign up with the SCA and thump heads with wooden swords.
Gotta second that one. Just a couple of weeks ago I was at a gaming/comics fan convention and played D&D with a guy wearing what he probably thought looked like wizard's robes but I couldn't stop thinking "I *love* that blue velvet gown!"

I also did my time last summer wearing plate mail and getting thumped with rattan (not wooden - SCA is teeming with liability laws) swords. Didn't do much for my girly personality, but it was great fun until my arthritic hip and feet cried "enough already!"

MC, I assume as a Denverite you hit the Colorado Faire on a regular basis? I sent my daughter last year to make sure she saw Puke and Snot - and I was saddened to hear that Snot died just a few weeks later.

ye olde ralph

[MissConstrued]

MC, I assume as a Denverite you hit the Colorado Faire on a regular basis? I sent my daughter last year to make sure she saw Puke and Snot - and I was saddened to hear that Snot died just a few weeks later.

ye olde ralph


Yeah, I usually get down there at least once or twice during the season. Guess I saw one of the last Puke & Snot shows. Tis a ye olde shame.

[CharleneT]

At some level, I believe women are more accepting of CD/TG/TS. Why, I'm not really sure. BUT, most of the time though, I think they are just more polite than men. It could easily be that they don't necessarily like being around a CD, but are just not willing to be rude about it. Push 'em far enough and they'll get rude -- but I think that women's "threshold" is higher.

It could be because men are rude to them so often that they feel like giving *anyone female* a little extra space.

[linnea]

I've had similar experiences, but I'm not sure why there is such a big difference in the reactions. I met a couple last summer, talked with the man first and then with the woman and the man. They were very talkative and pleasant but she was much more friendly.

[Starling]

...Weirdos are everywhere.

Words to live by.

:heehee: Lallie

[Starling]

At some level, I believe women are more accepting of CD/TG/TS. Why, I'm not really sure...

I think it's because FABs don't fear they'll be seen as any less feminine if they're friendly to a CD/TG/TS...unless, perhaps, it's their own SO. And that's a whole different BOW, IMHO.

:o Lallie

PS: Start the alphabet soup without me.

[Gerard]

I think it's because FABs don't fear they'll be seen as any less feminine if they're friendly to a CD/TG/TS...unless, perhaps, it's their own SO.
I agree it's about fear.

[Noxvictum]

Well, go find them! Hang around Ren Faires and drink mead with the strangest lot of them you can find. Sign up with the SCA and thump heads with wooden swords. Use your imagination, and think of something for a common interest. Weirdos are everywhere.

I second that. Mom's in it, her friends are, i used to be. Currently more into the LARP junk. Lots of weird people. Some take a bit to get used to, but mostly they're good people. Mead is freakin' awesome, btw

[Marshchild]

In my own experience, I haven't noticed too many differences between men and women in the reactions I get when I'm dressed (most of these reactions being positive or, at the very least, indifferent); indeed, I'm often surprised at how many compliments or kind words I get from guys (and the unlikeliest-looking ones at that). I would say, though, that most of the (thankfully small) minority of people who've given me truly unpleasant reactions over the years have been guys; then again, now that I think about it, I've had some real humdingers of reactions from women too (the difference between the sexes being that while a guy will often be openly abusive, a girl will just burst out laughing, which can be just as unpleasant a reaction in its own way :Angry3:).

Interestingly, I haven't had too many bad reactions from people in the local metal crowd, which I spend a lot of time hanging out with. While I've noticed a growing number of women in this over the years, it's still very much a male-dominated scene, but, yeah, as I said, I haven't had too many problems there, even though I'm sure it's common knowledge by now that I CD. One thing that could have helped me there is the fact that I've been writing for the local street press for well over a decade now, and have given lots of local bands publicity through interviews and stuff like that. Maybe to a lot of the local musos, I've become like that scary, creepy and generally unpleasant guy you go to to buy your HEROIN from; you may not like him, but he can give you what you need, so you still hang out with him! :devil:


Weirdos are everywhere.

Ha ha. That reminds me of something I heard on the radio, many years ago now, when, out of morbid curiosity, I'd tune in late at night to listen to one of the local shock jocks - mainly because you'd get all sorts of strange people calling him (on a couple of occasions, I was one of them!). Anyway, one time he took a call from some woman who wanted to start some worthy cause or other. He didn't have much time for her, as she seemed to have only the vaguest idea of what her cause was actually supposed to accomplish, and he lost all patience with her completely when she asked if she could give out her phone number so that any interested parties could ring her. Telling her she'd only be inundated with calls from "weirdos" if she did that, he then quoted a "statistic" I'll never forget: one out of every ten people living in my state is a weirdo! So there you go.

[Lisa Golightly]

Actually my personal experience is a bit different...

The first person to accept me as 'female' was male and he instantly switched from buying male type gifts to female gifts immediately... He was the first person to ever buy me something female...

Equally the first person to treat me with pure contempt was female... She really didn't like me at all and let it be known in no uncertain terms...

In general boys and girls are an equal mix of frowns and smiles... I don't think it's a gender thing, more a tolerence and manners thing.

Lisa x

[battybattybats]

Certainly I got lots of acceptance at the local womens comedy festival, my first time out dressed I might add.

That said though, before we give women a free pass lets remember that some fierce hate has come our way from women too.

New Hampshire despite the earlier win in Gainseville suffered an attack of utter spinelessness. While having the greatest number of women in their legislature, despite having plenty of peole speak out clearly on the TG issues the bathroom lies had those on our side totally cave in and the vote to drop attempts to get TG equality was unanaimous! Thats tight, all those women on our side ignored all the testimony, even after calling out the opposition on the lies they went and turned around and every one voted against us!

Then of course there were those amongst the feminists that went as far as death threats to drive a TS from a womens record label, Janice Raymond with her book The Transsexual Empire that turned a great many feminists against us and spread a mass of Transphobic myths and Germaine Greer did her bit too.

And there was the physical assault on Transmen by Lesbians not so long ago, so even with violence women aren't blameless.

Indeed women are more often accepting. But they are far from perfect.

[Marshchild]

Then of course there were those amongst the feminists that went as far as death threats to drive a TS from a womens record label...

Just out of curiosity, who was that?

[MissConstrued]

That said though, before we give women a free pass lets remember that some fierce hate has come our way from women too.


Is there any bit of silver lining or bright light in that dark cloud you live in? The world according to Batty just sucks... full of hate, evildoers, and gay-bashers. Woe is me. Everyone hates me. Like Marvin the paranoid android.

Not my world, man.

You don't have to be a Pollyanna, but geez... try a positive attitude sometime.

[battybattybats]

Just out of curiosity, who was that?

A quick google found this:

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=HBRR1isU-VAC&pg=PA700&lpg=PA700&dq=feminist+death+threats+against+transsexual&source=bl&ots=4WBfHwB2B-&sig=uC0pfj1S6PE1OEWs8TgKZB1UhyA&hl=en&ei=UnwCSp-_Aqbe6AO85_yOAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2


Is there any bit of silver lining or bright light in that dark cloud you live in?

Yes. Lots. Almsot everyone I've come out to is 100% accepting and supportive, we have as a group had many recent achievements in all manner of areas. Such as when I outted myself to the local human rights comittee and got them infformed and on-side on TG issues for the current govenrment human rights initiative. But because I look at both sides of the picture and acknowledge the real problems as real you seem to mistake me as a pessimist. Even though I posted on many good pieces of news, like the election of the CDing Mayor, various legal and Rights victories and such. But I don't stick my head in the sand either.


The world according to Batty just sucks... full of hate, evildoers, and gay-bashers. Woe is me. Everyone hates me. Like Marvin the paranoid android.

No, not full. We have lots of allies, lots of acceptance, lots of opportunity for change. But we may lose that if we keep acting the way we are. I cite reality. Proof of claims not axaggeration. I point out that most people here are far safer than they imagine, I just point out its the poor non-white folk who are the ones dying and that us safer white folk need to do more to help them! But merely pointing out the reality that some of us are at risk of violence seems to be too scary.

I'm facing facts. The facts are we are in a better situation than many of us think, but one that demands upon any of us with a conscience that we act.


Not my world, man.

It is despite the fact you may not experience it directly. And your choices, like mine, will either make the world better for the next generation of CDs and TSs or make it worse. And this is my point. Our complacency, our apathetic comfort, kills kids. But when we are active and make real change it saves lives. Saving lives is a really positive and good thing. Prentending everything is fine ignoring problems and letting them continue is however a very bad thing. It makes us responsible for allowing the bad things to happen.


You don't have to be a Pollyanna, but geez... try a positive attitude sometime.

I have a positive attitude. I'm an optimist. I'm also a realist. So i look at the real problems face-on rather than through rose-coloured glasses blocking out any unpleasant bits and then I do something to make the bad things better knowing full well that people can.

Which is so much better than being a Stepford-CD looking the other way while peoples suffering continues.

Edit: Just in case you miss it here's some of the good news from my world, the real one where change is made by people acknowledging real problems and working on them to fix them. Protections for TG students across an entire state in Australia: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1713466#post1713466

[bosom buddy]

the problem i think is ignorance... not knowing that most cd's are not bisexual or homosexual... and being around a bisexual or homosexual of your own sex can be upsetting because you dont know if they are attracted to you or will come on to you...


really.

i am a heterosexual gg and i have had bi and homosexual female friends but only because i dint know they were such until they told me later in our friendship... and then it never bothered me unless and/or until they came on to me or engaged in homosexual activity in my vicinity...

...just my opinion :) hope its helpful

[MissConstrued]

I have a positive attitude. I'm an optimist. I'm also a realist. So i look at the real problems face-on rather than through rose-coloured glasses blocking out any unpleasant bits and then I do something to make the bad things better knowing full well that people can.



Okay, I'll give you that. There are more depressing posters here. Without naming any names, they are the "I'll never get a woman" crowd. I have not seen anything that downtrodden and self-loathing from you, so carry on!

On a different subject, I hope you're not implying that I do nothing. I'm quite certain that just being out in public and not presenting myself as a freak goes a long way. If all of us did that, and each affected the opinions of 20 or 30 people, how far would that go?

[Butterfly Bill]

Acceptance, meaning I don't get any overtly hostile reactions, I get about equally from both men and women. Compliments, even enthusiasm, more openness from them than I would usually get from a stranger, I definitely get that more from women. (I present as a man in feminine clothes; I make no attempt to pass.)

(And yes, a renaissance faire is an excellent crossdressing opportunity.)

[battybattybats]

On a different subject, I hope you're not implying that I do nothing. I'm quite certain that just being out in public and not presenting myself as a freak goes a long way. If all of us did that, and each affected the opinions of 20 or 30 people, how far would that go?

I was aiming criticisms broadly, not at you. As we should not expect all CDs to be able to go out we need to consider what they can do. And even in the closet there are many ways that can help.

And going out may also not be enough either. It does do good in that imediate laregly safe locality, but to effect real change reqires more. More Gays coming out helped, but still more are in the closet than out of it! Their legal victories and legislative changes and all the rest made a big difference too. We all need to look at how we can do more for our community whether in or out of the closet.

After all there's been out CDs for over 50 years. There's more now, but the rest wont come out spontaneously any time soon. So they will have to be helped or encouraged out. And till then we all have a responsibility for fixing the problems that exist. Neither being out at the local supermarket or even at work or hiding totally in the closet can absolve of us the responsibility to do more when there is more every one of us can do.