What Kind of Cis-Man (non-CD) do you pretend to be?

[battybattybats]

When in the closet we have a persona we project, the not-a-CD-Man or Cisgender Man (Cis means opposite to Trans, and while CDs are CisSexual we are TransGender).

So what kind of Cis-Man do you show to the world?

Are they hyper-masculine or effeminate?

Homophobic? Transphobic? Or an ally and friend of Gays and TGs?

So what kind of Man do you show to the world?

[GaleWarning]

My persona, remembering that I only have one, is kind, gentle, empathetic, courteous, caring, long-suffering, forgiving ... the stereotypical pisces personality.
:)
But ocassionally and unexpectedly, the fish will turn and swim the other way, and people are left wondering ...
I can be a sh*t! Don't annoy me!
:angry:

[Pink Person]

I am semi-masculine to some people and semi-feminine to others. I'm LGBT friendy and open to heterosexual and homosexual relationships.

[Deborah Jane]

So what kind of Man do you show to the world?

Me, it's who i am!!!!!!!!

[MissConstrued]

Are they hyper-masculine or effeminate?


Looking at my nails, earrings, shaved legs, etc., one might think me a bit effeminate. If, however, I were judged on my trade, my hobbies, and my attitudes, I believe I'd be found hyper-masculine. So both, I guess. Maybe that's how I maintain balance. Yin-yang, and Oriental gobbledygook.




Homophobic? Transphobic? Or an ally and friend of Gays and TGs?


I'm neutral, like Switzerland. Nutball individualist that I am, I take people one at a time. Some gay people are cool. Others piss me right off. I won't participate in others' prejudiced rantings, but I also won't condemn them for having their own opinion, which they have a right to. If they want mine, I'll share it. Sometimes even if they don't....

But I don't have to pretend to be a guy. I don't pretend anything any more.

[Peka TG]

I Don't pretend to be anyone but myself.
effeminate ally.:battingeyelashes:

ps I'm not in the closet

[Sheila]

so what kind of man do you pretend to be batty?

[Phyliss]

I don't PRETEND to be a man when I don't happen to be wearing a dress. I'm a man who enjoys wearing a dress and associated finery. All the padding, stuffing, tucking, implanting, snipping, and chemicals in the world isn't gonna change that. I can pretend to be a lady, and be quite good at it, but, at the end of the day when reading the "bottom line" I'm still a man.

Now, having said that, what sort of personna do I project on a regular basis? Mostly an understanding person who doesn't go out of their way to act "militant" toward or for any one group, but would rather go about their own business without confrontation of any sort.

[battybattybats]

so what kind of man do you pretend to be batty?

Thats a fair question. (assuming you meant CIS-man as per my question)
These pics will show how close to 'cisgender' my regular 'male' expression is.
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89282

Though the last few months I've been wearing more purple and dark reds for lipstick. And dark red or a glossy metal purple nail polish.
And yes, thats what I'm wearing doing my weekly shopping.

So I'm not in the closet as cisgender anymore. My most male presentation is still Transgender even though i have only come out formally as a crossdresser to family and friends and all the people who were at the local Womens Comedy Festival or who may have seen me walking to and from my Goth friends place. But being a rural area, knowing Gays and Lesbians who've been bashed and having suffered enough violent assaults for one lifetime already I'm being cautious with how femme i am in public.. shifting it by degrees gradually adjusting the community to me :)

I advocate for human rights locally, always speak out against homophobia and transphobia, have Gay and Lesbian friends locally that I look out for both out and closeted, I've outed myself to my local MP and members of the government in letters on TG and non-TG issues.

Now as some people have missunderstood what I said let me remind you all.

I didn't say people were pretending to be men. I said pretending to be a Cis-Man and what kind of man they were showing to the world.

If you are a CD and a man you are not a Cisgender Man but a Transgender Cissexual Man. But if you are closeted the man people see is that of a cis-man which you are not.

Have i explained that enough yet? All CDs are Transgender (not neccessarily Transsexual!). No CD is Cisgender. But when fully closeted we are giving the appearance of being Cisgender.

I never said anyone was not a man.

[Sheila]

Though the last few months I've been wearing more purple and dark reds for lipstick. And dark red or a glossy metal purple nail polish.
And yes, thats what I'm wearing doing my weekly shopping. .................. So I'm not in the closet as cisgender anymore.

Batty sorry but to me you are displaying locally outwardly as goth, not necessarily transgendered, so it does not follw that you are not in the closet still as cis gendered



I advocate for human rights locally, always speak out against homophobia and transphobia, have Gay and Lesbian friends locally that I look out for both out and closeted, .

I to have done & continue to do these things, it does not make me transgendered [/QUOTE]


Have i explained that enough yet?

Do you realise hoe condesending statements like these come across as ?


Thats a fair question. (assuming you meant CIS-man as per my question)

I asked the question on the quote below


So what kind of Man do you show to the world? and the pretend was taken from the thread heading

[battybattybats]

Batty sorry but to me you are displaying locally outwardly as goth, not necessarily transgendered, so it does not follw that you are not in the closet still as cis gendered

Much of Goth culture is Transgender. If it's outside traditional gender expression then it's transgender.


I to have done & continue to do these things, it does not make me transgendered

I didn't say that made me Transgender. That was answering my own questions about our out attitudes to homophobia and transgender etc. You were wanting me to answer to my own question weren't you?


Do you realise hoe condesending statements like these come across as ?

It was asked as a genuine question without the emphasis you placed upon it (I was exasperated that people had missread my clear emphasis of CIS-man true but nonetheless that was not written in or with a condescending intent), though of course tone rarely carries well in text.

Though perhaps I overestimate peoples reading on many subjects or quick grasp of some ideas and maybe should have written a longer post more fully explaining the Cis term?


I asked the question on the quote below

and the pretend was taken from the thread heading

Yes. You took two distinct sentences with seperate meanings and conflated them with a resultant meaning far more potentially insulting than any condescention.

I hope that was inadvertant on your part.

[The Gas Man Cometh]

Have i explained that enough yet?

Do you realise hoe condesending statements like these come across as ?

I actually found that to be a fair question, in which Batty was making sure she had explained herself properly. o_O'


Batty, on the flipside of your question, I don't really portray being cis-gendered. People may think and assume that I am an ordinary and cis-gendered woman but they clearly wouldn't get me even if I told them differently.

[Lisa Golightly]

It is a very interesting question... and I'd like to answer if I may about the boy I used to be... The one that was a shell... a piece of armour... a shard of masculinity... Call the indulgence therapy if you might Batty...

He was artistic, quiet, shy, considered by a few to be a genius (lol... very kind but sadly untrue), self-destructive, incapable of maintaining friendships, arrogant, petty, angry, violent, at times vicious, prone to bouts of self harm, a virtual alcoholic, nihilistic, utterly empty, a total void. Not a very happy human being at all...

Interestingly my best friend who is struggling with Lisa said he was jealous of the old me as I was handsome, likeable, was loaded, had beautiful women, drove expensive exotic cars and had a full head of hair (He's quite bald)... Just goes to show how well I hid the pain that was tearing me apart daily... Hmmmm... It is difficult to look people that have known me man and woman in the eye and tell them just what a lie my whole life with them was back then.

End of interruption... I just felt the need to write that out of my system... sorry... I''ll let you get back to your thread.

Lisa x

[Sheila]

What Kind of Cis-Man (non-CD) do you pretend to be?

I hope that was inadvertant on your part.
No Batty it was quite deliberate and they are not conflatedto me or several others I have spoken with :straightface:


Much of Goth culture is Transgender. If it's outside traditional gender expression then it's transgender.

Transgender (pronounced /trænzˈdʒɛndər/, from (Latin) derivatives [trans <L, combination form meaning across, beyond, through] and [gender <ME <MF gendre, genre <L gener- meaning kind or sort]) is a general term applied to a variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups involving tendencies that diverge from the normative gender role (woman or man) commonly, but not always, assigned at birth, as well as the role traditionally held by society.

Transgender ...... is the state of one's "gender identity" (self-identification as woman, man, or neither) not matching one's "assigned sex" (identification by others as male or female based on physical/genetic sex). "Transgender" does not imply any specific form of sexual orientation; transgender people may identify as heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, polysexual, or asexual. The precise definition for transgender remains in flux, but includes:
"Of, relating to, or designating a person whose identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender roles, but combines or moves between these."[1]
"People who were assigned a sex, usually at birth and based on their genitals, but who feel that this is a false or incomplete description of themselves."[2]
"Non-identification with, or non-presentation as, the sex (and assumed gender) one was assigned at birth."

I fail to see where gothism is mentioned in the transgender scale

A link to a definition ofGOTHISM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goth_subculture)where I was unable to spot a reference to gothism being outside traditional gender expression and it then being classed as transgender.

A link from the same place on the meaning of CIS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender) again Gothism appears not be be there

[JennyS.]

Why all the freakin labels? Does it really matter? Not to me. Every now and then I am Jenny... A loving and caring woman. Most of the time my male self. Still a loving a caring man. Not overly masculine, but not femme either.

So what?

[The Gas Man Cometh]

You missed Batty's point entirely, Sheila...

[battybattybats]

No Batty it was quite deliberate and they are not conflatedto me or several others I have spoken with :straightface:

You asked me what kind of Man i pretended to be wheras i was asking people what kind of cis-men they were pretending to be. In other words you are implying that I am not a man. Something which, depending on my view of being a man, could be quite an insult.

Which is what your now saying you intended???

See the operative difference between the two terms now? And hence why replacing one for the other changes the meaning? Or have I failed to explain the Cisgender term to you sufficiently? Or did you try to insult me?


I fail to see where gothism is mentioned in the transgender scale

I never said it was. I said much of Goth Culture is Transgender. Not a form of Transgender is Goth. Goth culture has been TG accepting for a long time (couple examples here http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106385 ) And with man-skirts, guys in make-up heaps of androgyny and a celebration of the effeminate male Transgender has been part of Goth Culture for a very long time. And Emo too.


A link to a definition ofGOTHISM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goth_subculture)where I was unable to spot a reference to gothism being outside traditional gender expression and it then being classed as transgender.

It's a subculture not an 'ism' (one I've lived in before it was named Goth I might add!). And the acceptance of gender non-conformity and various sexualities goes back to i's origins and even antecedants. But your attempts to insist i'm somehow being cisgender are pointless. All that matters is that people in my area see it as not binary gender expression. That is the case. And whether i'm trying on high-heled knee high boots in K-Mart or exhibiting a self portrait with poetry about violence aganst feminine males in the local art competition or discussing eyeliner with the girl at the chemist while buying red lipstick it's pretty clear.

[Sheila]

You missed Batty's point entirely, Sheila...

I don't think i did, if i have then several others have as well :straightface:

[Nicki B]

The 'pretence' is often instinctual - we've been conditioned to disguise ourselves from a very young age, so it takes no thought..

But I also think people's external perceptions (nothing I do at all) play a big part? How they see and react to me is often very different, although I feel (and am often acting) the same?

As a girl, I'm a tomboy - as a boy, I'm fairly metrosexual - but my body isn't, and that's what people react to primarily, what they see and assume from that? :sad:


Edit - Sheila - I don't see what you're taking offence at? :strugglin

[The Gas Man Cometh]

I don't think i did, if i have then several others have as well :straightface:

She made a general statement that much of Goth culture is TG, and then an entirely different statement about the definition of transgender. The two sentences are not interconnected and she never implied that Goth was synonymous with TG!

[Sheila]

She made a general statement that much of Goth culture is TG, and then an entirely different statement about the definition of transgender. The two sentences are not interconnected and she never implied that Goth was synonymous with TG!

Really ..........


Much of Goth culture is Transgender. If it's outside traditional gender expression then it's transgender.

[The Gas Man Cometh]

Really ..........

Yes really. In her sentence, "If it's outside traditional gender expression then it's transgender."

The "It's" refers to androgyny or acts of gender neutrality.

Nothing to do with Goth. They are separate statements. She pointed out the fact that many Goths are TG but not all are. Once again, she never implied Goth and TG was synonymous.

[Toni_Lynn]

Why all the freakin labels? Does it really matter?
...
So what?

I agree! All these labels and -isms, -ists, and -phobias that I see thrown around do more harm than good. In some cases they have caused a rather terrible thing to occur here in as much as they have lead to anger and division among us as people.

As a person, I just want to be. I just want to wear the clothes and makeup that I like to wear. I my actions are a little more masculine than you'd expect when I'm wearing a skirt, or a little more feminine than you'd expect when I'm in a suit and tie, so freakin' what. As I said in another thread, in a sense I actually wish that the term crossdresser did not exist, because in my mind it sets me apart for doing something that is simply a part of me that is a normal as tree being a tree or a leopard being a leopard.

I just want to listen to music that I like. I want to allowed to befriend any and all people, and to choose to NOT befriend some, as is my right without being told that I am whatever-ist or guilty or whatever-ism.

It is my right as a human being, as a part of natural law, to do all of this, and not have it minutely dissected and labeled and placed on a shelf in a model fashion.

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

[Nicki B]

Yes really. In her sentence, "If it's outside traditional gender expression then it's transgender."

The "It's" refers to androgyny or acts of gender neutrality.

Nothing to do with Goth. They are separate statements. She pointed out the fact that many Goths are TG but not all are. Once again, she never implied Goth and TG was synonymous.

That's how I read it.


Remember, folks, this is never a perfect means of communication? :idontknow:


I agree! All these labels and -isms, -ists, and -phobias that I see thrown around do more harm than good. In some cases they have caused a rather terrible thing to occur here in as much as they have lead to anger and division among us as people.

As a person, I just want to be. I just want to wear the clothes and makeup that I like to wear. I my actions are a little more masculine than you'd expect when I'm wearing a skirt, or a little more feminine than you'd expect when I'm in a suit and tie, so freakin' what. As I said in another thread, in a sense I actually wish that the term crossdresser did not exist, because in my mind it sets me apart for doing something that is simply a part of me that is a normal as tree being a tree or a leopard being a leopard.

I just want to listen to music that I like. I want to allowed to befriend any and all people, and to choose to NOT befriend some, as is my right without being told that I am whatever-ist or guilty or whatever-ism.

It is my right as a human being, as a part of natural law, to do all of this, and not have it minutely dissected and labeled and placed on a shelf in a model fashion.

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

Toni - isn't it obvious why Batty is asking?


Homophobic? Transphobic? Or an ally and friend of Gays and TGs?

[Kolokea GG]

I think your use of word "pretend" is what is a little off. The way I have seen it is on here people are who they are and don't pretend to be anything else. It almost comes across to me and you are saying the men on her are pretending to be woman. To me I find it sick when someone tries to be someone there are not whether its a guy trying to be macho to show off or a girl trying to be all prim and proper. Thing is people can tell when you are trying to hard to be something your not, so just be yourself.:2c:

[Sheila]

This statement by Batty

Though the last few months I've been wearing more purple and dark reds for lipstick. And dark red or a glossy metal purple nail polish.
And yes, thats what I'm wearing doing my weekly shopping.

So I'm not in the closet as cisgender anymore.

Promted me to make this statemnet


Batty sorry but to me you are displaying locally outwardly as goth, not necessarily transgendered, so it does not follw that you are not in the closet still as cis gendered

Perhaps that will help clear a few things up :)



So I'm not in the closet as cisgender anymore. My most male presentation is still Transgender even though i have only come out formally as a crossdresser to family and friends and all the people who were at the local Womens Comedy Festival or who may have seen me walking to and from my Goth friends place.

I am sorry Batty but to the general public at large you would still be viewed as Cisgendered, as goth butstill cisgendered

[Nicki B]

I think your use of word "pretend" is what is a little off. The way I have seen it is on here people are who they are and don't pretend to be anything else. It almost comes across to me and you are saying the men on her are pretending to be woman. To me I find it sick when someone tries to be someone there are not whether its a guy trying to be macho to show off or a girl trying to be all prim and proper. Thing is people can tell when you are trying to hard to be something your not, so just be yourself.:2c:

Many of us have been reared as 'solidly male' - after a while, that gets to feel somewhat of a pretence, so I get where Batty is coming from?

But we all fulfill 'roles' - parent, worker, family member - that carry expectations of how we should behave? The question is, does that sometimes feel like a pretence?

See La Golightly's post (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1708597&postcount=13)... :)

[Pink Person]

Dear Batty, if you keep asking important questions and responding to criticisms in a very reasonable and well informed manner then I am going to have to declare you to be the most interesting person on this site. Please do not make me do it. Thank You.

[Katrina]

Batty, I understood your question when I read the heading...so...

I used to be an outwardly homophobic, follow-the-crowd, heterosexual, "macho" guy in high school. In college I continued that, but without the homophobic as I had some friends who I suspected were homosexual and I had grown to like them. I didn't have any point of reference in high school as NOBODY had come out and we were in a small, rednecky town.

During and after college, I was a weightlifter and was quite proud of my muscle building, so from that standpoint, I was still on the macho side, but much more accepting of various lifestyles. Since my divorce from my ex, who was fairly intolerant, I have lightened up quite a bit. I will now defend just about any type of diversity to friends, family, co-workers, or people I have just met. I'm not macho at all now, more laid-back than anything. I'm doing much less pretending now. The only pretending I'm doing is that being a guy isn't tearing me up inside.

[Juliet Simone]

Well, having been asked that question in an accusing and condemning tone I hesitate to answer. When not en femme, I am a outdoorsy, wayfaring tough guy who swears like a midshipsman.
However, I sit on a continuum, and the closer I get to knowing, loving and being Juliet, the less tough, angry and testosterone fueled I get. Really, I feel like a lesbian in a mans body, thanks to crossdressing (and coming out), my temperament is improving.
I think one thing that is wrong with male culture today and one that contributes to misogyny and sexism is that men aren't properly feminized. That includes all men, especially the type who start wars, bully others and generally cause testosterone fueled oppression of others. We are the highly socially evolved ones, in touch with our inner femininity, which informs our male side about how to treat people.
Juliet

[Carly D.]

I think I am of the Carly mindset all the time.. I don't think of myself as girly in my mindset but rather a little less edgy, less likely to be of the male mindset such as it is (you know, screw you I get to pee wherever I want, the world is my toilet) and that is the very essence of male(ness) to me.. or something like that, anyway I am less that way when I am myself.. when I'm with others (family) I am the odd one.. my brothers always comment about the way I see things isn't the same as theirs or anyone else for that matter.. I have a somewhat twisted sense of humor and vision on everything..

[battybattybats]

I am sorry Batty but to the general public at large you would still be viewed as Cisgendered, as goth butstill cisgendered

There's not a lot of male goths with long red nails and red lipstick Sheila, (some but not many) especially not in a rural town. And all the people at the Womens Comedy Festival where I was totally crossdressed who knew me i'm out to, and the several hundred who didn't will too, i was still recognisably me (even in the dark as someone I knew came and sat by me saying Hi (Birth-name)! ) and while lots told me I looked good (including the comedians backstage who were very supportive) I did not pass.

Isn't the measure of the general public at large the views of the general public at large that i meet, not what you imagine they will be? So when a girl at a checkout where I'm buying beadcraft supplies starts talking to me about high-heel black knee-high womens boots she bought on ebay and reccomending them to me then she's just viewing me as a Cisgender male? And what about the people who see me carefully select and try on knee-high high heel womens boots?
And you forget that Androgyny and Genderqueer/Genderfree are also Transgender! And Goth Adrogyny remains Androgyny.


I think your use of word "pretend" is what is a little off. The way I have seen it is on here people are who they are and don't pretend to be anything else. It almost comes across to me and you are saying the men on her are pretending to be woman. To me I find it sick when someone tries to be someone there are not whether its a guy trying to be macho to show off or a girl trying to be all prim and proper. Thing is people can tell when you are trying to hard to be something your not, so just be yourself.:2c:

If someone is knowingly in the closet (someone totally repressed could not be considered so) then they are acting as if they were not-a-cd when they are-a-cd. They are pretending they are not a cd and thus avoid others awareness that they are (and discrimination for being) a cd.

I'm not judging them for it. And i'm certainly not saying anyone is pretending to be a woman by crossdressing. Many here are clearly women, Transsexual women are still women. And a Bi-gender crossdresser could well be considered both a man and a women no atter which state they were born into. Same goes for the 1 in 60 or more here who will be Intersex largely without being aware of it.

I speak only about those who are closetted, those who are pretending they are not CDs but Cis to the outside world when they are in fact CDs and not Cis. For whatever reason they choose to do so.

[StevieTV]

I"m expressive, talkative, creative and egotistical. I'm the typical Leo male.

[MissConstrued]

There's not a lot of male goths with long red nails and red lipstick Sheila, (some but not many) especially not in a rural town. And all the people at the Womens Comedy Festival where I was totally crossdressed who knew me i'm out to, and the several hundred who didn't will too, i was still recognisably me (even in the dark as someone I knew came and sat by me saying Hi (Birth-name)! ) and while lots told me I looked good (including the comedians backstage who were very supportive) I did not pass.

Isn't the measure of the general public at large the views of the general public at large that i meet, not what you imagine they will be? So when a girl at a checkout where I'm buying beadcraft supplies starts talking to me about high-heel black knee-high womens boots she bought on ebay and reccomending them to me then she's just viewing me as a Cisgender male? And what about the people who see me carefully select and try on knee-high high heel womens boots?
And you forget that Androgyny and Genderqueer/Genderfree are also Transgender! And Goth Adrogyny remains Androgyny.


Methinks you protest a bit much. I don't think Sheila was looking for a long, drawn-out discussion on this -- merely pointing out that from your pictures, which you linked yourself, that you don't look like anything other than typical male goth. No one I know -- and I know all kinds of people -- would consider that transgendered at all. You might. They don't. It's a goth dude.

Want me to make the survey official? I'll take your pics around and ask everyone I see: is this a goth, or a crossdresser? What do you think will happen?

If you traveled around the US like you look there, people would call you one of two things: goth, or faggot. And I suspect a lot of the male goths would kick your ass if you questioned their gender. If they had muscles. :D

[Toni_Lynn]

Want me to make the survey official? I'll take your pics around and ask everyone I see: is this a goth, or a crossdresser? What do you think will happen?

If you traveled around the US like you look there, people would call you one of two things: goth, or faggot. And I suspect a lot of the male goths would kick your ass if you questioned their gender. If they had muscles. :D

And THAT is exactly to my point about the danger of the use of labels to compartmentalise everyone and everything and every action.

The beautiful thing about life is that none of us fall in neat categories that are black or white. All things are shades of grey, even more so when those categories overlap. When one is categorised, one is forced by that categorisation to adhere to a defacto standard. Life, thank heavens, isn't really like that.

Some people it would seem require these categories, however, as validation of self. It is not outside of human nature to want to belong. This isn't bad, but as with everything, to much of this, or too fine a stratification, destroys and brings about greater division.

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

[battybattybats]

Methinks you protest a bit much.

Lol.


I don't think Sheila was looking for a long, drawn-out discussion on this -- merely pointing out that from your pictures, which you linked yourself, that you don't look like anything other than typical male goth.

Theres lots of subsets of Goths, and certainly i'm far too oldschool to be remotely typical but thats beside the point, more importantly I have passed when less feminine than that! Indeed the more feminine I dress the less often I'm seen as female lol. The times when in public I've been thought to be a girl I've been in guy clothes and no makeup :D

But most importantly, the pics are from last year and I mentioned in my post straight after the link that my male expression is now much more feminine!

I said:
Though the last few months I've been wearing more purple and dark reds for lipstick. And dark red or a glossy metal purple nail polish.
And yes, thats what I'm wearing doing my weekly shopping.


The typical 'male goth' is more effeminate than the typical 'male-non-goth' simply because... drum roll... Goth is more accepting of gender diversity. And Androgyny and diverse gender expression is... drum roll... transgender! And believe me the acceptance Goths have now was hard-won.


If you traveled around the US like you look there, people would call you one of two things: goth, or faggot. And I suspect a lot of the male goths would kick your ass if you questioned their gender. If they had muscles. :D

I know lots of American Goths, from Cyber/Industrial-Goth body builders to effeminate Steampunks to genderqueer/FtM Emo's. And Goths as a group are one of the most gentle and peaceful subcultures ever. And every Goth I've come out to has been 100% supportive and accepting of Gender variance and sexuality.

As for the value of terms... they have been needed to define the sources of other groups problems. Internalised Racism was an important discovery as to many of the issues facing many racial minorities. Same things were learned by exploring Internalised Mysogyny. Its essentially the same thing occurring to different groups of people under similar conditions.

And terms like cissexual and cissgender allow us to reexamine things in a way that takes away the norm-compared-to-other bias of our Internalised Transphobia.

[Sheila]

As for the value of terms... they have been needed to define the sources of other groups problems. Internalised Racism was an important discovery as to many of the issues facing many racial minorities. Same things were learned by exploring Internalised Mysogyny. Its essentially the same thing occurring to different groups of people under similar conditions.

And terms like cissexual and cissgender allow us to reexamine things in a way that takes away the norm-compared-to-other bias of our Internalised Transphobia.

Batty care to explain Internalised Mysogyny in relation to this thread ?

Misogyny ........ (IPA [mɪˈsɒdʒɪni]) is hatred (or contempt) of women or girls. Misogyny comes from Greek misogunia (μισογυνία) from misos (μῖσος, "hatred") and gynē (γυνή, "woman")

A definition if cissexual and cissgender can be found here cissexual and cissgender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cissexual) for those interested :D

[battybattybats]

Batty care to explain Internalised Mysogyny in relation to this thread ?

Sure since you asked nicely.

In short, it's an example (like the racism one) of a group that by understanding the way it had absorbed the negative views about themselves they harmed themselves and by rejecting those ideas have been overcoming them.

The womens movement was wracked with internal strife for many decades. There was the womens counter-petition to stop women getting the vote in Australia for example. Or the ousting of Lesbians from several key womens-rights organisations in the 60's and 70's. The blaming of rape on women victims by other women assuming they provoked the men who committed the crime is another example. Only by challenging the ideas that women were weak and irrational and overly emotional and incompetant in work and by laying the blame for rape etc solely on the perpetrator and not the victim were women able to make the gains they have.

It relates to this thread not just on the importance of understanding these terms and their value but also because if closeted CDs as they live in public life as cisgender men contribute to social transphobia as a way of being seen to be less likely transgender or if they express their internalised transphobia they then contribute to the transphobia that impacts the next generation and reinforce that in others currently.

While if CDs act as the Cis-Men that we would like real Cis-Men to be, accepting, supportive, defending others then at least we are not harming our community but strengtheningit even if we remain in the closet.

Edit: Oh and Sheila, the blog Questioning Transphbia which you've linked to in the past (on the angie Zapata discussion) has had a couple of articles on Cis lately a bit more in-depth than wiki (and as usual much of the interesting stuff comes out in the long comments disciussions) http://questioningtransphobia.wordpress.com/2009/04/25/cis-is-not-an-academic-term/ http://questioningtransphobia.wordpress.com/2009/04/30/cis-2/

[LilSissyStevie]

At home I'm a radical Austro-libertarian banjo playing hillbilly redneck farmer. I wear a big black cowboy hat and drive a 1 ton 4WD truck. I raise pigs, cattle and chickens. I have hundreds of fruit trees and a big vegetable garden. I own guns and ammo for every size varmint, including the two legged kind. (My hero: The sometimes crossdressing farmer John Peterson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0egeHh1_Sb4 )

At my day job I'm the smart and witty but slightly effeminate analytical chemist whose eccentricities are explained away as a side effect of high intelligence and a tragic childhood.

In my bedroom and my mind I'm a petticoated sissy.

Actually, I'm all of the above all of the time. It's all the real me. I just choose to express myself differently depending on the situation (doesn't everybody?)

In any case, I am an outspoken defender of the rights of the individual, including the right of people to hate us as long as they do not attempt to impose their will by force. In that case, they may have to talk to Mr. Mossberg.

[Pink Person]

Males who self-identify as primarily masculine and behave in a primarily masculine manner are cisgender. Females who self-identify as primarily feminine and behave in a primarily feminine manner are cisgender. A very odd pissing contest is occurring in this thread. A person who self-identifies as transgender and behaves in ways that many objective observers would consider as transgender is challenged on both points. I don’t understand the personal criticism. Is everyone fair game for this type of external and subjective analysis? Perhaps there is a mod who has a rational opinion on this subject?

No one is an expert on the private lives of other people. We all experience everything in subjective and specific ways and should be careful about how we objectify and generalize these experiences. I’m sure my opinion of some of the other people on this site would be withering and likely unfair to a few of them. Shall I share these opinions with everyone in carefree abandon?

I believe the point of this thread was that many of the members of this site do not behave privately in ways that are commonly considered cisgender. These same people frequently do engage in public behaviors that are cisgender. The first post in the thread asked people to describe their personal level of public cisgender activity (among other things). I don’t think this thread was an invitation to invalidate each other. If you are all cisgender all the time, congratulations. You deserve a special place in the diversity parade, as everyone knows. There is no need to lead the procession by marching backwards and organizing the ranks behind you.

[The Gas Man Cometh]

Methinks you protest a bit much. I don't think Sheila was looking for a long, drawn-out discussion on this -- merely pointing out that from your pictures, which you linked yourself, that you don't look like anything other than typical male goth. No one I know -- and I know all kinds of people -- would consider that transgendered at all. You might. They don't. It's a goth dude.

Want me to make the survey official? I'll take your pics around and ask everyone I see: is this a goth, or a crossdresser? What do you think will happen?

If you traveled around the US like you look there, people would call you one of two things: goth, or faggot. And I suspect a lot of the male goths would kick your ass if you questioned their gender. If they had muscles. :D

Me thinks thou vastly lack understanding of Goths, and the definition of "transgender."

[BarbiB]

I try and be neutral. And I need to be private. I relate as well to ultraconservatives as much as the liberal crowd. We all have the right to be and act as we care. My biggest problem comes when someone from either side attempts to publicly criticize or show up the other. Most of all, I try not to hear or say anything negative about any choice someone else makes. And there is no pretension about it here. "That's how I roll"...

[sometimes_miss]

Having spent much of my childhood labeled as a sissy, as an adult I try very hard to present as a standard issue guy, and I'm guessing most of us closet dwellers probably do the same thing.

[Nicki B]

Most of all, I try not to hear or say anything negative about any choice someone else makes.

Doncha think that's what Batty is really asking - how do we deal with bigotted views, when we're in male mode?

And how can we be prepared to stand up for diversity, rather than hiding, without necessarily outing ourselves?

I find you need to have a few things pre-prepared - it's very hard to come up with stuff off the top of your head, in stressful moments? :)

[KateC]

This thread is so damn confusing I'm not sure why I am even responding.

And why doesn't anyone read my posts or respond to them if I reply, makes me feel what's the point of responding sometimes...

Anyway, hope that got someone's attention...

I am a CD, maybe a mild version of TS, but I don't display a half-gendered version of me if that's what you're asking.

If I am to go out(If I ever do again) I display myself either fully dressed as a woman, or as a guy. I don't know if that's "lying" or "pretending" to be not a CD when in guy mode, but I still enjoy many aspects of being a guy. I don't merge them together really? I'm not super macho or anything but I don't act like a princess in guy mode. Is this the answer you're looking for?

[Nicki B]

And why doesn't anyone read my posts or respond to them if I reply, makes me feel what's the point of responding sometimes...

Looking back over your previous posts, that's certainly not always true - but perhaps your style is sometimes to make 'statements' which don't always seem to require answers? :strugglin


If I am to go out(If I ever do again) I display myself either fully dressed as a woman, or as a guy. I don't know if that's "lying" or "pretending" to be not a CD when in guy mode, but I still enjoy many aspects of being a guy. I don't merge them together really? I'm not super macho or anything but I don't act like a princess in guy mode. Is this the answer you're looking for?

I think Batty's also asking if, and how, your attitudes change when in boy mode and how you display them? :)