The Minimum Woman

[Persephone]

Patricia1’s “How Long Is Too Long? (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107098)” is a very interesting thread about how far someone can go with something “girly” until it goes beyond an “acceptable” male limit.

How about the other way? How minimal can you dress and still be seen as a woman?

I’ve walked into men’s rooms wearing no bra, no forms, very minimal makeup, a pastel sweatshirt and women’s jeans (with my 24/7 long hair in a pony tail, my nails, and my purse) and been told “Lady, this is the men’s room!” –> Twice.

This past weekend I was traveling with my spouse and my son and they wanted to visit a local casino. I wanted to see if I could somehow get a casino card in my femme name, so I told them I’d go along but only if I could go enfemme.

Well, this wasn’t planned in advance so I didn’t have too many things with me. I did have a padded bra which I take because it helps keep the seatbelt from being annoying.

I had a pair of women’s jeans because I only have women’s jeans, and a pair of flat loafers.

My plan was to wear a male polo shirt under an oversized shirtjacket and hope it would work.

But in going through the closet of the motorhome I found a women’s t-shirt I’d forgotten. Intended for working on the vehicle it was old and stained, but it was a pastel yellow and had sketches of little birds on it.

I had no foundation, but shaved close and put on moisturizer, some eye makeup and lipstick.

Combed out my hair, and we were off.

The first stop was a gas station. When I went to pay, I was the third customer in line. The very cheerful clerk was talking to the guy at the front of the line for a couple of minutes, then with the guy who was next.

He asked him if he was ready for Mother’s Day and they chatted about that for a minute. They the guy wanted to buy something else and the clerk, looking at me, said, “Let me take care of this lady first.”

As I ended my transaction, he cheerly said, “And have a great Mother’s Day, Ma’m!”

At the casino I had to present my male ID and they would only issue the card in my male name, but they were totally unconcerned about my look.

I felt naked without earrings, so I went into the gift shop and found a pair, along with a nice little bracelet. When I went up to the register I found out that they offered a discount to card holders, so although I was presenting my femme credit card and ID, I handed the SA the casino card.

The woman looked at it for a moment, turned to the other SA and said, “She has someone else’s casino card.”

The other SA said, “That’s fine, she can use anyone’s card.”

I didn’t receive a stare or strange look the entire evening.

So, what are “the rules” here? How minimum can we be and still “pass”?

[Karren H]

I've walked into a crowded rest area ladies room.. In the daytime, wearing all male clothing (slacks, shirt and sports coat), womens shoes, pink scarf instead of a tie, hair, makeup and sun glasses and didn't get arrested!! That's a minimun as I get..

[Sheila]

I've walked into a crowded rest area ladies room.. In the daytime, wearing all male clothing (slacks, shirt and sports coat), womens shoes, pink scarf instead of a tie, hair, makeup and sun glasses and didn't get arrested!! That's a minimun as I get..

so were you presenting as male karen or female? now I have no problem with CDERs who are presenting as female entering the ladies restroom, but it bothers me if you are presenting as male per se and use the female restroom

[Karren H]

Well it was kind of a test.... And I had been enfemme for the day and changed into my male clothing but still had on my makeup and hair and I really had to go bad.. Lol.

Likewise I have been fully enfemme and used the mens room (no one in there) and fully enfemme wearing slacks without makeup and used the mens room and didn't get killed...

[foxyjj111]

this is a very good point. if you are interested in passing as a women, sometimes you need to somewhat downdress in order to dress like that average women. most woman dont go out to get the mail in a dress and heels. the times i have tried to pass i have simply worn girls jeans and blouse or feminine top with light makeup. and ya sunglasses tend to help too.

i feel as if though it is also a good place to start going out because its more comfortable than wearing heels and a skirt. once you get used to being out and about then step it up a bit.

[linnea]

I may experiment with this a little; it's an interesting question.

[karynspanties]

Very interesting. I never thought about the other way around. I know I let my nails grow longer, shave my entire body, wear female tennis shoes and socks. Even female jeans every once in awhile. I may have to try the other way. Hmmmm, maybe this would lead some of us, including myself, to blend in more naturally.....

[Tiffany Tuesday]

Hi Persephone,

I love hillwalking and climbing and so minimalism is both practical and essential, but call me bimboid, I hate not looking feminine. Upshot was i worked on a practical outfit and came up with this one. My make up is all day waterproof so usually lasts even the worst weather with a little gloss lippy for a visit to the pub with the boys afterwards.

Mostly my hair would be in a beanie, bun or tied, and whilst I have my own A cups vanity has me usually add a padded bra or sports bra with breastfeeding pads to protect my gowing nubs.

It works for me as it lets me feel feminine yet does not get in the way of having fun up and down hills, and when hanging out with rough tough hunky cute lean muscled moutain men ... only teasing, I love climbing more than the sweaty peak geeks that are my buddies!

Hugz
Tiff x

In the interests of honesty ... here is how I can end up looking, unposed and knackered when it gets below freezing and it was a long hard walk to a top. To be fair to me, I'd slept in and not had time to make-up and was in winter boots and gear .. but underneath later, yee-ha I could strip down to the girlier me.

Hugz
Tiff x

[Carly D.]

The essentials for me is shoes.. or if I am going out sometimes I wear panties and pantyhose or tights under my pants.. a lot of the time I go out wearing these clothes for tolerance.. I can so rarely go into a store without wearing pantyhose or tights because I as a male am really shy.. strange enough but I have to wear womens clothing to feel like I can go into a crowded room.. it will be that way this weekend for my nieces graduation.. see me wearing pantyhose?? see...

[Ralph]

So, what are “the rules” here? How minimum can we be and still “pass”?

In a similar thread not too long ago, someone came up with a brilliant but simple "point system". It's not a matter of any one attribute that will allow you to pass (or contrariwise get you caught); it's a combination of a lot of little things. If you have naturally fair skin, a delicate build, fuller lips, and the right bumps you could wear bib overalls and combat boots but still pass as a woman. If you're like me - quite hairy, Jay Leno jaw, prominent adams apple, etc - you could dress as a ballerina and still not pass.

Speaking just as the average observer, I believe that the less artificial tools you need to achieve the look, the better your chances of passing. That is, naturally smooth, fair skin is worth far more than your stubble slathered over with an inch of makeup. Real hair (long, silky strands) is worth more than the best wig you can find.

In short, there's no one answer to your question that is right for everyone. Some guys look like girls wearing nothing but a smile; others just have too many points against them to ever look like anything more than a gorilla in a dress.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. Now if you'll excuse me I need to finish my banana.

ralph

[pamela_a]

This is an interesting question and I believe the answer is really more obvious than many think. Look around you. What are all the other girls wearing? Everyday normal for me is ladies pants or jeans and a ladies top, with all of the proper and appropriate undergarments of course. My hair style is more fem than male and I usually carry a purse. At my wife's request my make up is minimal, usually only lipstick. Dressing to fit in with what the other women are wearing combined with a big dose of confidence works for me.

On more than one occasion I've caused the "oops, I walked into the wrong restroom" syndrome at work when guys have come in, looked at me then gone back to check that it was in fact the mens' room they were in. Since I'm moving more toward my goal of living full time I regularly use the ladies room when I'm out and have yet to experience anything negative.

As may others have also said, IMHO one of the reasons so many complain about getting clocked is because they are overdressed for their surroundings. I know I'll catch it from Karren but I think a great fitting pair of ladies jeans and a cute top at the mall will pass inspection easier than a dress and heels (depending on the dress of course). My general rule is if I don't dress to look out of place 90% of the people who see me won't even notice, and I hope the 10% that do are only thinking that I'm one very tall lady.

-Paula-

[victoriamwilliams1]

Now that is an intresting story:)

[joank]

I was in the bank a couple of days ago in Liz Clabourne slacks, womens loafers, satin top under a silk Hawaiian shirt and A cup boobs. Full daytime makeup including light lipstick was part of the presentation and no one made a comment or looked more that normal.

[linnea]

I've been thinking about this some more--and also experimenting a bit. The last time I went out en femme, I dressed more casually as far as typical female garb goes. I don't usually wear heels because I'm tall and I think that heels make me stand out even more.
But on this occasion, I wore a pair of women's jeans and a sweat shirt that I have worn in male mode, my beat up running shoes, very light make-up, earrings, and a medium length wig. I had on my usual bra and a pair of light control panties. I did not look very shapely nor in my opinion very pretty nor especially girly. However, I did not get any particularly questioning looks and when I got gas in Oregon (I live close to the Wash/Ore border), the attendant called me ma'am (in Oregon, a customer is not allowed to pump her own gas).
I would not want to go out dressed this way all the time, but as I observe GGs, I see that they certainly do not "dress up" all the time and their clothing choices often include items that have been considered traditional male clothing. Like Persephone and others, I have tops that have flowers and birds and other items that would be considered unisex at best except for a little girly flourish.
I haven't tried a casino, but I'm going to sometime in the near future. This weekend I'm going to a mountain cabin to split wood (my part of the cabin upkeep in exchange for occasional ski-weekend uses) and I'm going to go enfemme but it will be work clothes. There aren't likely to be any visitors, but if there are, I will have another experiment because I'm not going to wear my pretty outfits while I use the splitting ax and wedges.
I don't know what the minimum is, but I think that I often exaggerate the images of femininity in order to achieve a look that will be convincing. Perhaps I don't need to go to such lengths, at least not all the time.
About rest rooms, when I present as a woman, I use the women's restroom; when I present as a man, I use the men's room.


Hi Persephone,

I love hillwalking and climbing and so minimalism is both practical and essential, but call me bimboid, I hate not looking feminine. Upshot was i worked on a practical outfit and came up with this one. My make up is all day waterproof so usually lasts even the worst weather with a little gloss lippy for a visit to the pub with the boys afterwards.

Mostly my hair would be in a beanie, bun or tied, and whilst I have my own A cups vanity has me usually add a padded bra or sports bra with breastfeeding pads to protect my gowing nubs.

It works for me as it lets me feel feminine yet does not get in the way of having fun up and down hills, and when hanging out with rough tough hunky cute lean muscled moutain men ... only teasing, I love climbing more than the sweaty peak geeks that are my buddies!

Hugz
Tiff x

This caught my attention because I love to hike and I have lately been hiking (backpacking) in my fem attire. The one thing that I really have difficulty with is my hair. I have to wear a wig, and it always seems so hot. Everything else works all right for me. I, too, wear a bra.
I really like the outfit you have come up with. When I was climbing mountains (the five majors of Washington State), I would have like to have worn an outfit like that.

[Deb The Brunette]

Whatever else I go without, I aint going out without at least my eyeliner ...no chance...no way :hmph:




:mods:
.

[Jennifer in CO]

this is Colorado....the front range is a different story but if you get up into them thar hills the gender line gets real blurry. The guys look like guys and and the girls look like guys.

Ok OK...tougue in cheek for a moment. ;)

Seriously tho, and especially in the winter where everyone looks the same anyway, guys AND girls dress for what they are doing. Girls just have that unwritten rule that they can ALSO dress for how they feel. This is the line I think "we" have chosen to cross. Womans fashions typically are softer and freer (cut, movement, etc) so that is another aspect of why we do it but it is still a "feels good" attraction to most. Last night I went to a local BBQ hut with my wife, daughter and son-in-law. We had a wonderful time, then went to B&N on a book hunt then to a movie (kids went their own way after dinner and the book hunt). I was wearing girls light denim jeans (lighter/softer cut), girls white t shirt (narrow trim neck and sleeve trim - for a t shirt I LOVE this!! its SOOOOO soft!!), white patterned knee highs and my girls Champion (baby blue stripe) sneakers. I was being "me", a guy, and presented as such. I could have worn the same clothes and been out as a girl tho. The key part of it is the "vibe" you put out to the general public. This is why a girl dressed as a guy gets confused with a guy because thats how she is presenting herself. Same for not really looking fem but your "presentation" is feminine enough to get mam'ed instead of "sir'd". That is also a safety point for many business's. Clerks are taught to always say 'sir' or 'mam' and if they can't tell the difference say 'mam' because a guy will laugh it off but a woman will cut you in half with just her stare if you get it wrong...and might not come back as a customer.

we do...what we do...because it 'feels' good...plain and simple

Jenn

[sometimes_miss]

Ahhhhh, to pass. Put me in a coal mine during a power failure and a total eclipse. Then I might pass at a distance of maybe 100 yards.