Why do we need to pass? (Question from GG and some CD)

[KateC]

Here's an interesting question that I am still trying to answer myself, I read this off another board where a GG was asking this.


Basically, she asked, why *DO* we need to pass or want to pass as a woman in public, rather than to look like a man in a dress. For at least people who are the traditional "CD" types, can't they just go out in public wearing skirts/blouses, heels but still keep their male appearance like facial hair, no make up etc.

This is what she asked and it made me think myself too. She and others who also questioned this asked that, so if we wanted to pass, then we are "TS" or want to be a woman, otherwise why not "man in a dress".

I myself know at least that If I do go out, I want to present myself as a woman, not a man in a dress. Now the deep deep reason I don't know, so if it's TS or whatever, honestly I don't know. I won't refer anyone to that thread because I want to hear answers here skewed.

So really for myself is, "why do I want to present myself as a woman" hmmm

[Sonia Greene]

I think there's more chance of ridicule/violence if read, especially depending on place and time of day..........simple, dear Watson.

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Because I respect women and would not want to be seen as making a mockery.

Hugs...Joni Marie

[deja true]

I think there's more chance of ridicule/violence if read, especially depending on place and time of day..........simple, dear Watson.

Well...there is that aspect, I guess...

But to pass is to blend in. It's to become, as well as possible, just another anonymous person in the crowd (an attractive one if possible!). To go a little further in shedding the restrictive bonds of man-ness that, in many cases bother a lot of us.

Just as in Halloween disguises, there's a freedom in disguise that lets us not only look like the impossible, but act and think like the impossible as well, at least for a while. There is an element of hiding, I guess,but there's also an element of liberation from shedding that other disguise that we have to wear for most of our "normal" lives.

I pass, therefore I am!

[cindym5_04]

I appreciate and love women so much that at times, I want to be one- albeit temporary. It's a way to step outside of my "normal" self and "Cindy" is a bit more open/less-restricted version of how I am typically.

[Kate Simmons]

Sometimes it's just a "feedback/feed forward" type of positive reinforcement Kate.:)

[vivianann]

Because I self identify as a woman, and do not want to look like a man in a dress, I know I do not pass 100% as a woman, however by doing the makeup, wig , and breastforms, I am completing the feminine image that I want to project to the world.

[LisaM]

I agree with vivianann---"Because I self-identify as a woman". I don't want to look like a man at all when I am dressed.

[IwishIwasTracy]

I am one of those crossdressers that doesn't try to pass, which is probably a good thing since there is no way that I could ever hope to pass. I don't wear skirts or dresses out in public but I wish that I could. I would wear only women's clothes if I could get away with it.


Tracy

[Kate17]

I love the feeling of being feminine which is why I dress. Men, hair, beards are not feminine so just putting on a dress does not feel right. When I want to/have to be a man, I dress the part - which is most of the time in my life. Passing is really a bar we set for ourselves in trying to achieve the impossible. You don't have to get there but it is a goal. Aren't we all asking - how can we project a more feminine persona. What clothes, which make up is best, do these shoes go with.... Then, when you look and feel the part if only in your own mind, your feminine side can be free to express it self.

[charlie]

I simply want to be the best woman I can be. Just as my wife takes her time when we go out, I do too. I want to look pretty in my own eyes. I want to look good for myself. I guess then I will look good to others as well then and I get two for the cost of one! Also, as was stated, if I do get close to passing, then my chances of being outed, harassed or having a scene are greatly reduced.

[Jessica Who]

I would love for my representation of all the feminine feelings that I've had over the years to be taken seriously. Whenever I think about the prospect of passing I know that I just want to blend into the background without drawing much attention to myself.

[Miranda09]

Because when I dress, I don't want to be a man in a dress. I want to escape my male self for a while. So, if I want to escape into my female self, it's important that I can pass as a woman. This doesn't mean I want to be a woman, tho I must admit, I often fantasize what it would be like to experience everything a woman does. But apart from that, it's a challenge to see if I can transform myself,,,,and above all, I find it enjoyable and it helps me to understand women in much greater detail than I ever did before. :)

[Lorileah]

There are as many answers as there are people here. But why can't we wear makeup and perfume or all the trappings the same as any GG can wear (or not wear) things associated with being a man. You and the post in the other thread didn't ask why women didn't wear make up when they wore jeans and a t-shirt. Does that make them TS? No. They are still women who just happen to like wearing men's clothing. Nothing sexual, nothing gender oriented.

Here's my question to answer your question. Is the make up and wig so much different than the skirt? We have members here who DO wear skirts with the oxford shirt. I have seen men in skirts with combat boots. We have people here who wear make up when dressed in their male attire. I reject emphatically GG's (or anyone) telling me IF I wear all the trappings then I must be a TS. What is it about us that makes people believe we are either gender confused OR we do this for some sort of kinky sexual thing?

As has been mentioned, we have enough problems in public when we go all the way dressing, we would be bigger and easier targets if we just decided to wear a skirt or a wig (I am bald, I would love hair like my wig). There is a contestant on a popular TV show right now who does wear makeup. He does wear nail polish. He takes pride in having his hair done. All things that in the western world we consider effeminate. He has been "outed" on several blogs and even the radio and TV as gay. Why? No one has come out and said he has had sex with them as a male. He has not said he is gay, but middle America thinks he is. Sure puts the kybash on the millions of girls who voted for him doesn't it?

Wearing any article of clothing does not make you anything you don't want to be. So now anyone want to answer why if I like skirts I have to be a TS, because time is running out and if I need the surgery I need to do it soon.:Angry3:

[Christina Horton]

Ok here's my take on it.

When I go out I want to be dressed as a woman and treated like one fully.
I have a very big Fem-side and need to express it. But sometimes I would like to just slip on a dress or a blouse and skirt and heals and go to the store or sometime with out going full out.

I find that Dressing fully is much more fun , fulfilling and in the long run I am happier then if I could only go out just wearing the clothing and not dressing up fully.

You see I don't pass but still go out anyway. I am not doing it for anyone but me, Plus when people see me and read me then they are exposed to CD life even a little and maybe they learn more and can be more tolerant of the TG community. I the girls like me how don't or will never be able to pass , go out we ,(If we don't act like Bit*$es ) help all. Well at least I think that.

[Christina Horton]

Because I respect women and would not want to be seen as making a mockery.

Hugs...Joni Marie

Why would it be mockery to just wear women's clothes. They wear men's and no one thinks that. After as some people whom hate CDers say,"It's just clothes".

[CharleneT]

Camisole and a hairy chest ......


j u s t . . . s o o o o . . . .


WRONG !

:eek:

[MissConstrued]

I have seen men in skirts with combat boots.


Was that at Home Depot, perchance? Could have been me. :D



Why would it be mockery to just wear women's clothes. They wear men's and no one thinks that. After as some people whom hate CDers say,"It's just clothes".

I don't buy the mockery thing. No one thinks Eddie Izzard is out to make a mockery of women -- women think he's hot. We could call it the "beautiful man" look. Hell, I'm straight, and I have a crush. :eek: I've done that look before -- all women's clothes and makeup, but no wig, so quite obviously male in a millisecond. Chicks dig it.

Don't get me wrong; I love to do the full femme thing. But I'll also mix it up to whatever suits my mood. I think it was the "all or nothing" approach that drove me crazy for so many years. Moving to a more fluid approach is what allows me to switch more easily -- such as keeping the eyebrows landscaped, ears pierced, acrylic nails, etc. It makes me rather obvious in guy mode sometimes, to the perceptive, but I own it. That's the main thing -- whatever look you like, you have to own it. "It's my thing, I am me, I don't have to explain you anything; and if you have a problem, piss off." (It helps to radiate that, rather than have to use the words!)

[TxKimberly]

I couldn't say it any better than Deja did!

This question KEEPS coming up and I just don't get it. I don't understand how any reasonable human being wouldn't immediatly see that there are very real and clear advantages to passing.

[TSchapes]

Since
A) I have a feminine component to me and
B) for that feminine component to express itself.

I
A) not only have to feel the most feminine I can, but also
B) be treated as a female as possible for my feminine side to be fully realized.

There is an affirmation for my feminine me when people treat me as a woman, so the closer I can get, the better it is.

The other part is wanting and needing to fit in, even if it's on the other side of the gender spectrum.

-Tracy

[Dragster]

I know I don't want to lose my maleness, so I'm not TS. I enjoy that side of me a great deal, but I do occasionally want to look as feminine as I possibly can. In my closet (my wife does not accept), I want to appear sexy/****ty, and I find it very exciting, especially if I ignore everything above my shoulders (no make-up or wig....yet!). I know I do wish to get out dressed one day, and people say it's a very addictive feeling; and I'd want to appear 100% female if I did that. I'd feel very self concious if I presented as a man in a dress, unless it was for a relaxing evening at home. I don't understand why, I just would.

Tony

[Byanca]

I think there's more chance of ridicule/violence if read, especially depending on place and time of day..........simple, dear Watson.
Like this. Some really really weird people out there.

[erica12b]

blending in (passing) is exceptance. a pat on the back saying i did well, sounds strange when i put it in type , ill half to think about it more

[Carin]

Since
A) I have a feminine component to me and
B) for that feminine component to express itself.

I
A) not only have to feel the most feminine I can, but also
B) be treated as a female as possible for my feminine side to be fully realized.

There is an affirmation for my feminine me when people treat me as a woman, so the closer I can get, the better it is.

The other part is wanting and needing to fit in, even if it's on the other side of the gender spectrum.

-Tracy

:yt: Thanks Tracy. You saved me trying to express that in less than 1000 words. :whew!:

I don't need to pass as a woman. I do want to be accepted as the feminine me, not the masculine me in a skirt. I have had half a century of male gender expression. I am enjoying the feminine me now.

[KateC]

I couldn't say it any better than Deja did!

This question KEEPS coming up and I just don't get it. I don't understand how any reasonable human being wouldn't immediatly see that there are very real and clear advantages to passing.

Hmm, try telling that to my S/O or others who don't understand.

[Emily01]

it's one thing for me to look in a mirror or take a photo and see a woman ~ and it's another thing entirely to be recognized by others as a woman. the first is fun, fun, fun and the second is a.) validation of effort, and b.) an experience beyond compare that gives me more satisfaction than i know words to describe.

that's my short answer.....the longer one would be more controversial i think. thanks for asking the question, i've enjoyed the posts so far.

[Hope]

It's easy - I am a woman - not a circus freak.

[linnea]

I want to shed my man-ness; I want to look pretty and feel pretty. I don't get the satisfaction of these desires as a man-in-a-dress.

[Christina Horton]

Look, it's a matter of taste. For instance, some people love circus clowns, other people think they're weird and frightening. Go figure.

All I know is that when I'm in front of the mirror, no matter how long I've spent over the makeup, I'm not Katie until the wig goes on. And when it comes off again, the spell is broken.

AMEN Sister that it too. The first time I had my makeover at MAC I almost chickened out until I got fully dressed and still nearly Chickened out again ,then the wig went on and there was the women I always knew was there but never seen. The wig completes the whole thing for most of us I think. And until it's all done we can't be out true self until we go full throttle.


Put the pedal to the mat!!!!!!! 10/4

[Satrana]

For CDs it is psychological-

1. A man in a dress is viewed as weird and perverted, it is traditionally viewed a derogatory or farcical image and it is something most CDs want nothing to do with.

2. We experience most of our femininity through fantasies and dreams since most CDs have little opportunity to dress. We naturally go all out whilst dreaming and "become" a woman, so we want to duplicate that feeling when we dress for maximum enjoyment.

For the record I also reject the notion that wanting to appear feminine and be treated accordingly by others has anything to do with TS. But I don't expect laypeople to understand the subtleties of gender expression but there are obvious examples you can give to make them think. For example a woman soldier does not want to treated as a woman by male soldiers - she wants to be treated as one of the boys and not treated differently. It is not a hard idea to grasp if you can put aside the ingrained belief in gender binary.

[Jenniferpl]

I have no plans on going out dressed as a woman. That said, I still want to present the best image I can.

[marla01]

It's easy - I am a woman - not a circus freak.

Are you saying that any m2f that does not pass is a circus freak?

I find that both utterly false and insulting.

Marla

[marla01]

I would first ask what we mean by 'pass'.

If it means to disguise one's physical sex and thereby create false assessments in others, I have no desire to 'pass'.

However, I have a different definition of 'pass'. That is to be accepted as a member of the gender class 'woman' irrespective of knowledge of my physical sex. And this is important to me, because that is my motivation for being transgendered. To me, 'woman' only exist in the context of society, so to be a woman, I have to be accepted as a woman by society.

Marla

[AllieSummers]

I want to enjoy my fem side and look as good as I can. Now good to me is a variety of things...nice body, makeup, hair, clothes, mannerisms, etc. I guess that if I get these things down then I will be more passable. I guess it is the chicken or the egg. In my case I don't do these things to be more passable but in the end I am more passable.

Kisses,

Allie

[Tee]

I appreciate and love women so much that at times, I want to be one- albeit temporary. It's a way to step outside of my "normal" self and "Cindy" is a bit more open/less-restricted version of how I am typically.

Same here...

[Carly D.]

I... I want to dress up in my finest and not try to pass.. oh wait, I do that already trying to pass, what am I saying... no but seriously, I would rather wear everything and not wear a wig but rather just slap my hat on and go.. the reason I think I at least attempt to pass is because no one in their right mind would pass on the opportunity to point and make a comment about that ugly guy wearing womens clothing and what are you thinking looking like that??? seriously, what do you think you are trying to accomplish looking like that??

[Stacye Rose]

Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.

Speaking strickly for myself, it's about the illusion. Can I look in the mirror and see someone pretty looking back. That's mostly why I don't underdress or wear nightgowns to bed. The sound of my heels on the floor, the swish of a skirt, the smell and feel of the make-up, to me they are all elements that form the gesthalt of an illusion that for at least that short amount of time that I'm dressed, I see myself as female.

In my opinion, If I'm going to be a man in a dress-why bother?

[TGMarla]

I like feeling pretty, and I like feeling like a woman. So when I dress...well, you've seen the results. If that makes me pass, well, I'm happy about that. If not, it's still nice to feel pretty and feminine.

[Sherry-Stephanie]

For its simply this rational....If I am going to dress as a woman then I want to look like a woman...and not look like a cross between male and female....after all that would be rather freakish...the "bearded lady" perhaps if I had facial hair of a man which 99.999% of women don't have.

Plus when I dress as a woman there is a definate female person that come sout from within me an it's something that I'm trying to "put on"...it just comes oth from within me..

Pretty simple explanation and I susppose I could go "deeper into it" but that pretty mcuh is the "thumbnai"l reason. Plus it works for me and that's what matters to this girl...

[Hope]

Are you saying that any m2f that does not pass is a circus freak?

I find that both utterly false and insulting.

Marla

Be insulted all you like - but there is a reason why the "bearded lady" is a circus side-show staple. It's not about not passing, the question is about the need, the desire to pass. If one is comfy being a guy in a dress, the "bearded lady" - good for them - but I'm not.

[Sallee]

that is a great question with no obvious answer at least to me I ask myself that question on very frequent basis. Why do I want to where womens' cloths and try to pass as a woman. Maybe because I want to see what it feels like to be a woman. That to me is the only obvious answer.
I think that once you have passed. and at least to your self you have not been read why then do you want to continue?
I don't think any of us probably has a real good answer only that it feels good and fulfills us in some way.

[TJ Tresa]

I can't speak for everone here, but for me I love the way feminine cothing feels. The panties, (nylon, silk, and cotton,) the bras, slips, hose, and dresses, blouses, skirts, etc.
I can not remember a time in my life that I didn't wish I could wear those pretty clothes.
Now with all that said and understood let me say this. I resect women, I love my wife. When I dress, I want to look as much like the pretty girl, or woman. I don't want to look like a man in a dress, especially around this area where red necks thrive. If that makes me a TS instead of a CD then so be it. But I will say this - I am not now nor have I ever been interested in dating men.
When I dressed the more feminine I look the more feminine I feel and act, tha is what makes me an believable girl friend to my wife.

[battybattybats]

I think its very much as a validation of our feminine side to be recognised as female whether temporarily for a CD or permanantly for a TS.

[Ellen Ross]

....put aside the ingrained belief in gender binary.


Thanks for writing this! I have tried to say this for months, but couldn't find the right words.

[Joann0830]

Because I self identify as a woman, and do not want to look like a man in a dress, I know I do not pass 100% as a woman, however by doing the makeup, wig , and breastforms, I am completing the feminine image that I want to project to the world.

I Like so many others agree with Vivianann, But unfortunayely being a parent and my career field would have accepted me as I feel inside, things would have been different, there are things we still have to do as a male, but My real feelings of what I really want to be is to be the woman inside and that means all the way to appearence, to look pretty and be accepted as a female
in appearence. Joann0830:battingeyelashes::heehee::love:

[sometimes_miss]

Because if you can 'pass', you're pretty much let alone, perhaps admired for your beauty if you are such, or at worst ignored if no one feels attracted to you. But if you don't pass, you become a target for the vast number of assh0les in the world to make fun of you, and that is something I'd much rather avoid.
The motivation for my female attire desires are one of wanting to feel attractive, wanted, loved, as I once felt for a much prolonged period such a long time ago when dressed and behaving as a girl. Sure, as some suggest, I might eventually find that again by 'being myself' and going out as who I am. But in the meantime, the most common reactions aren't going to be the ones I want. Much more likely, the reverse.
I was reminded of that the a few nights ago, when two people were at my place of work, one TS, one an underdressing CD who wasn't very good at hiding his bra straps or hose; apparently friends, but not a couple. Both were spotted as what they are, and there was a lot of discussion about them when they were out of auditory range, none complimentary. I made a short attempt to question why the remarks, and was returned with 'because they're freaks' and a few other such derogatory remarks. As in the past, when it became obvious I wouldn't be able to change the opinions of those around me, I stopped trying. Sometimes it's hard to accept that as much as I have my own open minded and accepting beliefs set in stone, there will be a whole lot of others who believe in their own ideas just as strongly in the opposite direction. Sorry guys, I guess I'm just not made for the 'front lines' of this battle. I can't pass, I'm not going out.

[larry07]

It makes me sad that so much of society, including many in the GLBTQ community feel the need to give a label to everyone: male or female, gay or straight. Why can't we just be who we are, anywhere along a wonderful and varied continuum.

For myself, I would never pass as a traditional "female", so I don't try. I do however underdresss "female" all the time and most of my outer clothes are female as well, though in public I mostly wear things that aren't obviously feminine. I would prefer to wear frilly skirts and dresses much of the time, if I weren't concerned about people ridiculing me, but I'm not particularly interested in a wig to cover my bald head or makeup. (I do like to wear breast forms and bras, even though I have no breasts of my own. I never claimed to be consistent.)

My self image is as a male and I am only interested in sex with females, but I prefer to wear most of the clothes traditionally considered "female". I'm not interested in most sports, hunting, or cars but I would rather watch a spy movie than a chick flick.

[Sarah Doepner]

At first it was an attempt to see how closely I could come to what I would look like as a woman. I found that the closer I got the better I felt about my efforts and the more comfortable I became in my dressing.
Now that I've been out on a number of occasions, both alone and with other TG people, I recognize the value of being ignored by the majority of people. I just spent most of the week in Las Vegas at the Diva Las Vegas vacation and went out every day and night. Even at 6'1" barefoot, I found that I could escape notice of the vast majority of people if I did my best with makeup, wardrobe choices and behavior. Yes, if they paid attention they made me for who I am, but it allowed me to relax most of the time. When I was relaxed I was much happier and I was much more relaxed out of my room than hidding behind 3 locks wishing I could get out and hating my desire to dress.
So that is the answer. By passing I can get out and not hate my TG nature, and myself.

[Prissy Linda]

Because living in Wyoming there are a lot of guys with ropes in their pickup trucks who would love to string up a queer.

A few years ago my wife relented on one of the boundaries she has set for me that I don't let co-workers or friends see me dressed, anyway I convinced her to let me dress for a Halloween party. Nobody recognized me at first but after talking to a few people it spread like wildfire that I was dressed up like a woman. Quite a few people commented on how good I look and eventually I was asked if I dressed often since I could walk in heels and acted like I was very comfortable in my attire. Several men were obviously stunned by my appearance and felt quite uncomfortable with me looking so "hot" as several of them said, then they started joking that if I didn't look so good they would have to take me out and kick my ass then string me up to a tree.

Ok, so maybe they wouldn't have strung me up but the fact that I look presentable as a woman at least defussed some of the shock. During the next week I was questioned several times by both men and woman about how well I pulled off the Chick look, I don't know if my explainations flew or not but I do know that PRESENTATION MATTERS.

[Tora]

This group is very diverse, even in the CD,TS,Tv community. Many of us strive for the believable femme look. Some note that it is just the clothes, even if I do have a beard. To be able to walk the street, with less distraction
you need to blend. Weather you are a Marine or Army active duty at Arlington. A Miss America candidate. Or some one showing a restored classic car. You go for the best, you can obtain. Some do, some don't.

[Colleen03]

The first & only time I went out en femme was to a fetish ball last year, and I later asked the question to my gurl friend I went with "How passable was I?" She then set the record straight and told me her views on being passable, and she seriously frowned on that issue, and even changed my views on being passable. She pretty much said you don't dress to be passable, you do it for yourself b/c it's more fun that way. While I try to look as femme as possible, I agree with my gurl friend, why stress yourself out to try and pass? I just dress b/c I love it!!

[msginaadoll]

Why do I want to pass? Because as a crossdresser I want to look pretty. Who do I think looks pretty? Women. Therefeore if I want to look pretty I try to look as female as possible. Do I find other CDs attractive yes- the ones who are trying to look feminine. I personally dont find a man in a beard and a dress attractive. Maybe a beard and a kilt but.... So I guess I must be vain. There is also the side of wanting to be able to go out in public comfortabley as well- and be accepted. Im not sure if I pass or not but have never been treated like a freak either- so Im ok with it. Though I still want to be pretty!!!!

[sabrinaedwards]

Hi Kate, passing validates how I look. When I cross dress, I do my nails, my hair, wear sexy shoes etc. Does that make me a TS? No, not unless I do not like my physical body. I do love to look my girly best.

[windycissy]

Passing was a challenge that became an adventure that led to some mind-blowing experiences...

[AlannahNorth]

For me, I think the idea of passing (or being able to) would be about the pinnacle of expressing the feminine side. Most or all of us would likely say about the same thing. I love women, and I also respect them, and that would make me want to do my best to represent (pass) as one - even if it means staying in low light, or at a bit of a distance, and... likely not talking! It's also a great challenge (I don't have a feminine build at all). Another aspect of it is that of being out and completely unrecognizeable - it would be a rush.

One day I'll likely give it a try, given the right circumstances and some good friends with me.

Alannah

[Samantha43]

Each of us crossdressers has our own look, just like GG's do. I find myself dressing like women I find attractive. I like all things feminine, so when I dress, I go all out. Dressing in a skirt with all other clothing being male clothing just wouldn't do any thing for me. I have to "feel" feminine or it isn't worth the effort.

I don't go out much. I only go to CD support group meetings and maybe a friendly bar after the meeting, so passing in public is not a huge issue for me. Would I like to pass 100%....you bet! Because of my size and build, that is nearly impossible.

It is the feminine "feeling" that is important to me, and the reason I dress.

[Kimmie]

Empathy. To understand what women experience allows me to try to understand them more and be a better man.

Unfortunately I have yet to discover what causes women to make a 2 minute phone call needlessly take 10 minutes.

[MissConstrued]

Maybe because I want to see what it feels like to be a woman.

This seems to be a common thread, so my reply isn't addressing anyone in particular.



I can understand the desire, and while I'm just as curious myself, I just can't wrap my head around the notion that it's what I might be doing.

Some things are possible. Most anyone who wants to feel like a skydiver or a bass fisherman can go and do it; experience it firsthand and as completely as anyone else. But the idea that changing my clothes can make me feel what a woman does makes as much practical sense as trying to discover what it feels like to be an elephant by carrying around a mahout on my back. We can experience some of the trappings, but that's about as far as it goes.

Leave the women their thing, I say. We can experience things they can't, and I'll just be happy with that.

[gender_blender]

For some it's pass or fail. Personally, I'm not so concerned with social rules or passing as anyone other than myself, which some days is a combination of genders.

[Ralph]

But the idea that changing my clothes can make me feel what a woman does makes as much practical sense as trying to discover what it feels like to be an elephant by carrying around a mahout on my back.

Post of the month! Absolutely true, and funny to boot. Except for those who take HRT, we can't experience the hormonal surges; we certainly (and thankfully) can't experience menstrual cramps and the accompanying mood swings; while for a few shining moments we may experience the different social responses that being a woman can evoke, we can't experience the psychological impact of a friggin' LIFETIME of being told girls can't/don't/shouldn't do this or that, or being patronized and marginalized because you're more valued as a decoration than a human being.

ralph, wondering if they make mahouts in 24W

[anDrea F]

A very good question and one i ask myself more often these days. Then I pop to the mirror to put on a bit of makeup then realise an hour has passed. I think some comes from feeling complete and raising the bar each time a life time chalenge to get there quicker and better than last time. :battingeyelashes:

[Mary Morgan]

Passing to me is the ability to move in society freely without being called out, pointed at or otherwise belittled by unthinking people. I would like to pass so that I and those with me are not required to deal with such people. It is not about perpetuating the two gender standard, it is about being treated kindly and fairly as everyone should be.

[Carly D.]

Because living in Wyoming there are a lot of guys with ropes in their pickup trucks who would love to string up a queer.

A few years ago my wife relented on one of the boundaries she has set for me that I don't let co-workers or friends see me dressed, anyway I convinced her to let me dress for a Halloween party. Nobody recognized me at first but after talking to a few people it spread like wildfire that I was dressed up like a woman. Quite a few people commented on how good I look and eventually I was asked if I dressed often since I could walk in heels and acted like I was very comfortable in my attire. Several men were obviously stunned by my appearance and felt quite uncomfortable with me looking so "hot" as several of them said, then they started joking that if I didn't look so good they would have to take me out and kick my ass then string me up to a tree.

Ok, so maybe they wouldn't have strung me up but the fact that I look presentable as a woman at least defussed some of the shock. During the next week I was questioned several times by both men and woman about how well I pulled off the Chick look, I don't know if my explainations flew or not but I do know that PRESENTATION MATTERS.



Being strung up by some local cowboys there in cowboy land (Wyoming)?? that would only happen in cities like Laramie and Cheyenne and Rawlins.. Casper... ok a good ninety percent of the state...

[LA CINDY LOVE]

Passing to me is the ability to move in society freely without being called out, pointed at or otherwise belittled by unthinking people. I would like to pass so that I and those with me are not required to deal with such people. It is not about perpetuating the two gender standard, it is about being treated kindly and fairly as everyone should be.
Oh... they say that passing is not important it is about being yourself and expressing who you are.........if you think that passing is not important then go to the mall in your dress and high heels...with no make up or wig..and why shave you are just expressing your self, then come back here and tell us all how they all love that you were just being yourself.

When a crossdresser is out and about they need more then just being able to look like a woman ........ they need to have a... attitude .

LA CINDY LOVE

[Lorileah]

Because living in Wyoming there are a lot of guys with ropes in their pickup trucks who would love to string up a queer.

A few years ago my wife relented on one of the boundaries she has set for me that I don't let co-workers or friends see me dressed, anyway I convinced her to let me dress for a Halloween party. Nobody recognized me at first but after talking to a few people it spread like wildfire that I was dressed up like a woman. Quite a few people commented on how good I look and eventually I was asked if I dressed often since I could walk in heels and acted like I was very comfortable in my attire. Several men were obviously stunned by my appearance and felt quite uncomfortable with me looking so "hot" as several of them said, then they started joking that if I didn't look so good they would have to take me out and kick my ass then string me up to a tree.

Ok, so maybe they wouldn't have strung me up but the fact that I look presentable as a woman at least defussed some of the shock. During the next week I was questioned several times by both men and woman about how well I pulled off the Chick look, I don't know if my explainations flew or not but I do know that PRESENTATION MATTERS.

More bad publicity for Wyoming, Matthew Shepard didn't teach them anything?

This whole thing smacks of what other minorities went through before...just blend in and no one will bother you :sad:

[MissConstrued]

More bad publicity for Wyoming, Matthew Shepard didn't teach them anything?



I've been wracking my brain for two days now, trying to think of how many "queers" have been murdered in Wyoming in the last 20 or so years.

Let's see... Matthew Shepard.... and... um... er...

Stories like that get so much publicity because they are rare events.

I think you're more likely to be gored by an antelope.

[Koka]

Great post!!! I agree with you. I admire and adore women so much that I want to honor them by being like them.

[Lorileah]

I've been wracking my brain for two days now, trying to think of how many "queers" have been murdered in Wyoming in the last 20 or so years.

Let's see... Matthew Shepard.... and... um... er...

Stories like that get so much publicity because they are rare events.

I think you're more likely to be gored by an antelope.

aw c'mon Miss :) I will give you that point, probably many more gays up there than we realize, that's why they put their names on their belts. And the reason you are likely to get gored by an antelope? Antelopes outnumber people there 3:1 :)

[DonnaT]

Basically, she asked, why *DO* we need to pass or want to pass as a woman in public, rather than to look like a man in a dress.

My wife asked me that once. I told her I didn't pass, don't need to pass, and would be perfectly content walking about in a skirt.

She looked at me and said, "Not with me you won't!"

I said, "See, now you know why many want to pass."

[carhill2mn]

Mary Louise Morgan's and Katie B's. replies express my feelings quite well. I have been out hundred's of times in many different venues and have never had any experiences where I did seem to be "accepted" as a woman. Did I "pass"? I don't know but, I was treated as a lady, which is my desire.