how do I recognize the symptoms of internalized Transphobia?

[Sheila]

Given that I may be in deep denial about having internalised Tranphobia and am marrying a TG later this year, I have become deeply concerned about the serious impact this could have on our life tog.

So does anybody have any idea


1) what symptoms I should be looking out for

2) any ideas on how to overcome them

all help in identifing symptoms and possible solutions for overcoming them will be deeply appreciated :)

[Byanca]

hmm...if you feel discomfort regarding the look and behaviour of another person that is not forbidden by law?

[Sheila]

hmm...if you feel discomfort regarding the look and behaviour of another person that is not forbidden by law?

nope can't say I recognize that in myself in regard to the transgendered community

[Mrs. X (gg)]

Hun, transphobia refers to discrimination against transsexuality and transgender people and intolerance is the main symptom. I know you probably experienced this in the past but I believe you are most certainly over it.

Your feelings of thoughtfulness, unique interest and respectfullness comes through when it comes to express your opinion in issues of the forum. And more importantly, you're very much in love with someone that is part of this community, this is more than a validation that you overcomed fears of the past.

Relax I know Debs will keep you safe. :)


:hugs:

[Jenny Brown]

"Internalized Transphobia" seems to be just another label someone invented to make people worry more. Much ado over nothing. :blah:

[Deborah Jane]

You hang up the phone and walk off leaving me an empty view of your room on webcam :tongueout

[Fab Karen]

Read this thread:
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106070

[Sheila]

Read this thread:
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106070

I have .... so cam you enlighten me of the sysmptoms i may be suffering from if i have internalized tansphobia that I am unaware off ? and have you any solutions to the problems once found ?

[Lorileah]

Your heart rate goes down instead of up when you see a TG

You start walking the stage raising your hands frequently to the sky and spouting propaganda all the while you are having a secret affair (could even be gasp same sex)

You are on national television leaning across the desk and arguing with a person you never met before just after you have emptied your Oxycontin vial.

You whisper to your dinner companion and the classic physical sign appears on your face when you look like your panties just bunched as you were sucking the lemon in your water.


I think those are the signs, but there may be some more subtle

[trisha59]

Ran all the facts through the trishalator and It came up with "You have nothing to worry about"

[Jonianne]

Hi Sheila.

Whenever I say that I'm not sure of something (or actually it ususlly means I"m afraid to face it), I always say "give my best guess at what it is". Usually that brings it to the forefront in a more non-threatning way.

Share what you might guess it to be. :hugs:

[Sarah...]

internalised transphobia is a disease thet only affects TG people - it's when they start accepting (=internalising) the emnity (=phobia) that others feel about them, and feeling it's natural.

Basically it's "everybody tells me this is wrong, so I suppose it must be".

I don't think GGs can get it, by definition.

Yes, that's it in my view.


have you any solutions to the problems once found ?

The solution is belief in oneself. Works for me :)

Sarah...

[Toni_Lynn]

"Internalized Transphobia" seems to be just another label someone invented to make people worry more. Much ado over nothing. :blah:

:iagree:

I think my experiences as an alcoholic have helped me to see past mumbo-jumbo like this.

And that is why I keep the (obviously very yellowed with age) Calvin and Hobbs cartoon shown below tacked above my PC!

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

[Nicki B]

Sheil,

Your tongue must be getting numb, by now.. ;)


If it's 'internalised', that implies that you're transphobic about yourself (and your kind), which is why cis-people simply can't demonstrate those behaviours.

Look around these forums, though, and don't you see plenty of it? I do...People hating themselves for what they are? And fighting others, who suggest it could be different?

All because of the way they've been brought up. :sad:

[battybattybats]

As others have said, Cis people will not have Internalised Transphobia but may have Overt Transphobia or Unconcious Transphobia or Transphobia From Ignorance casued by unnoticed Cis Privilege but only Transgender people can have Internalised Transphobia.

Study of and understanding of transphobia is still in-progress. So understanding other forms of oppression and relating that to TG is often the best way to understand both it and the complexity of social forces which intersect it.

And because it's still a growing field it's not so easy to find lay-person descriptions outside of academia. It helps to have read a bit about feminism (especially 3rd wave feminism), racism, queer theory etc or other academic sociology to understand the terms (as people often confuse terms like Xenophobia, homophobia and Transphobia as beung like claustrophobia rather than racism as just one example).

So these links will hopefully help people understand. Internalised Transphobia works like other Internalised Oppressions so if you grok that it will help. http://ctb.ku.edu/en/tablecontents/sub_section_main_1172.htm

This may help people understand unconcious bias via the example of sexism (though its a bit academic being an excerpt of an academic book) http://books.google.com.au/books?id=MKjAMt2NFwQC&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=unconscious+sexism&source=bl&ots=dn-SmlGlS6&sig=rid6l9uaY43yVXizvl5I4mTVka8&hl=en&ei=MNMMSvhKqNbqA-CEuIkI&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9#PPA113,M1

Examples: http://schroedingerstabby.blogspot.com/2009/04/how-to-tell-male-from-female.html

Understanding the concept of Privilege in Oppression is important for anyone outside the oppressed group. Here is an attempt to refine a simple definition http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2008/07/03/working-definitions-of-oppression-and-privilege/
This is a set of common Cis Privileges. http://takesupspace.wordpress.com/cis-privilege-checklist/

Here is a good personal account of a TG person reccounting their own ablism in their relationship if the other stuff is too academic. http://sexualambiguities.blogspot.com/2009/05/blogging-against-disablism-day.html

Of course as oppressions and internalised oppressions are studied in universities around the world there are many books on the subject like this: http://www.mycahs.colostate.edu/sharon.k.anderson/ExplorationsinPrivilege.htm

But Transgender is less often studied academically so there are less books on the subject though generally reccomended on the subject of Trans-feminism is http://www.juliaserano.com/whippinggirl.html

And this blogpost by that author may also be useful http://juliaserano.livejournal.com/14700.html and there's lots of posts on this blog and lots of others to be found linked there http://questioningtransphobia.wordpress.com/

A definition of transfeminism is here (though needs work) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfeminism which includes the issues between 2nd wave feminism and transgender

A key part of third-wave feminism and understanding of many issues is intersectionality http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

Of course the best way to understand the subject in full would be to study womens studies/gender studies/queer studies at a college or university (so long as you don't have a Raymond-ite radfem for a lecturer!) and be part of the growing study of transgender in sociology.

Now thats a lot of reading, but unfortunately there has been little movement of these ideas from academia to general society over the last decade (3rd wave feminsm has been growing mostly since the 90's) because of the pervasive social anti-intellectualsim http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti_intellectualism which is often used to attack feminist and race studies etc.

Now when someone is able to convert these ideas into simpler language for the general less-academic populace... that would be a great boon to humanity.

[Fab Karen]

I think my experiences as an alcoholic have helped me to see past mumbo-jumbo like this.


And my long-term sobriety combined with life experience have shown me it isn't "mumbo-jumbo."

[deja true]

And my long-term sobriety combined with life experience have shown me it isn't "mumbo-jumbo."


Got to agree!

If your trans (even if you don't admit it) and ...

- you ever feel disgusted with yourself,
- guilty that you get even an inkling of pleasure or satisfaction from what you do,
- know deep down that you're doing a bad thing,
- go out of your way to avoid contact or conversation about trans issues,

... then you're entitled to that label.

As much as we like to renounce labels, they do help us identify issues and conditions a little easier sometimes (as long we can understand the full definitions behind them).

I agree with Nicki B, too. It's evidenced daily in these very forums ... as is the positive results of the "group therapy" aspect of this place in getting people to finally come to terms with it and get over it!

:)

[MAJESTYK]

Internalized transphobia is when you have enough and you keep some of it inside. Externalized transphobia is when you at least take it out to have a pee.( that is close to the expression I'm thinking of that they like to use in the Dales isnt it Sheila??:D) You are one in a million madam.:clap:

[battybattybats]

Got to agree!

If your trans (even if you don't admit it) and ...

- you ever feel disgusted with yourself,
- guilty that you get even an inkling of pleasure or satisfaction from what you do,
- know deep down that you're doing a bad thing,
- go out of your way to avoid contact or conversation about trans issues,


I'd add the aspects of Internalised Transphobia I still occassionally (though rarely and progressively more so) suffer.

- If you feel embarassed at any time when shopping for femme things
- If you find coming out to someone awkward or difficult or embarassing
- If you catch yourself making excuses not to dress
- If you find it difficult to be dressed around someone even though they are accepting

Another important one but not one I've experienced in a very long time:

- If you feel uncomfortable with or hostile towards or blame for societies lack of your acceptance other kinds of Transgender, whether Drag Queens, Straight CDs, Fetish-Clothes-Wearers and those who do not try to pass but dress to be visible, those who do try to pass, those who mix male and female clothes together or those who follow strict gender binary, those who transition or those who do not then you have Horizontal Hostility from Internalised Transphobia

[Sheila]

As others have said, Cis people will not have Internalised Transphobia but may have Overt Transphobia or Unconcious Transphobia or Transphobia From Ignorance casued by unnoticed Cis Privilege but only Transgender people can have Internalised Transphobia.


Having realised that as a cis person, I cannot be suffering from internalized Transphobia, can u further help me by listing things which may show me what the symptoms of my suffering with
Overt Transphobia or Unconcious Transphobia or Transphobia From Ignorance casued by unnoticed Cis Privilege
and ways in which to address any issues I may have surrounding them, as Debs & I marry later this year I am anxious not to cause her unneccasary stress over her TGism if I can possibly avoid it .............. many thanks again Batty:)

[Elizabeth Ann]

Please note: This is intended as a compliment, no matter how awkward or backhanded it may seem.

Shelia, you surprise me. I have been feeling considerable irritation at what I thought was righteous intolerance of many of us here, and then you turn the tables with a question like this.

I am sympathetic to your plight, and I don't mean to make light of it. Transphobia, both in ourselves and in others, is a very real phenomenon. But just as this forum argues that we should come to terms with who we are, I would urge you to perhaps recognize that it may be present, but don't beat yourself up over it.

Perhaps an example might work. I grew up in a small town in East Texas, and was constantly exposed to racism. I attended segregated schools. It was not uncommon for places to have three restrooms: men, women, and colored. Over the years, I managed to overcome my early childhood, and am known to all as strongly anti racist. My own children, thankfully, appear to be color blind in their choice of friends, even intimate ones.

And, to this day, I still feel some discomfort with African Americans. I cannot rid myself of the feeling that they are somehow different from me. I sometimes feel defensive around them. Am I a racist? Probably. Do I act on those feelings? Do I cause others harm? I hope not. Can I change the feelings I was taught as a 5 year old? I don't know.

What I do know is that after a lot of soul searching, I decided to let myself off the "who are you really?" guilt trip as long as I did the right thing. I think it has even improved my own tolerance. I am opposed to the manifestations of racism, not to hating racists.

What I am trying to say is perhaps you are a bit transphobic. Perhaps all of us are. But you don't have to let that control you. You get to decide how you act or don't act on it. So, be aware, be vigilant, be thoughtful, lead the examined life, but don't feel guilty about things you have been taught for a lifetime.

I'll bet that is all Debs would ask for.

Regards (really),
Liz

[TSchapes]

for having Internalised Transphobia! Now what do I do? LOL

Unless you live like Eddie Izzard (and I'm sure he's suffered from Internalised Transphobia early in his life), everyone of us TG folk have this at some sort of level. For me I have to catch myself with the inner voices:


Do I have a female side or am I just a crazy old guy in dress?
Do I love being CD or am I just kidding myself?
Why are you thinking about your gender so much? Don't you have anything else to do?


As self-assured and out as I am, I still question myself. Maybe that's just my nature. But sometimes these voices are annoying.

Love, Tracy

[Satrana]

can u further help me by listing things which may show me what the symptoms of my suffering with
Overt Transphobia or Unconcious Transphobia or Transphobia From Ignorance casued by unnoticed Cis Privilege

The thing about unconscious transphobia is that you will say and do things without realizing it. Unless Debs or someone else points it out to you then you may never know. And since CDs have internalized transphobia they automatically accept that you have a right to treat them differently and hold them to different standards so they are unlikely to call you out on it.

Basically it is going to come down to you feeling a way or saying something about Deb's femininity that you would not say to a GG. It is about acknowledging that a CD's femininity is their own and is on the same level as any GG's femininity.

You often see in these forums GGs complaining about how CDs express their femininity usually with a blatant put-down and stating in some manner that a CD's femininity is inferior to a GGs.

It can also materialize itself in situations of fear. Many SOs continuously question their partners over their sexuality and whether they want to have a sex change etc. The need for continuous reaffirmation is driven by an underlying fear.

Often the boundaries set by GGs are not for practical reasons but as a means to limit the CD's ability to express femininity. The check would be would you yourself ever accept such limitations or ever consider applying them to another GG.

Another example might be when a GG feels threatened her own sexuality cannot match ie certain aspects of the CD makes him look more attractive or maybe he receives attention out in public while the wife is ignored. If she hates those feelings because her partner is a physical male, then again that is transphobia. After all if you were out with a more attractive GG, you would expect her to get more attention etc.

Also thinking that a CD's enjoyment of his femininity is childish or immature.

The list can go on but what it boils down to is negative feelings towards your partner's femininity base upon the fact that he is a genetic male and not a GG.

I honestly don't believe it is possible for anyone to ever rid themselves totally of these feelings because we live in a society which is transphobic and the immorality of these feelings have not been educated into us from birth. It is not something to be overly worried about so long as we are consciously not transphobic then that is the best anyone of us can be realistically be.

[battybattybats]

Having realised that as a cis person, I cannot be suffering from internalized Transphobia, can u further help me by listing things which may show me what the symptoms of my suffering with
Overt Transphobia or Unconcious Transphobia or Transphobia From Ignorance casued by unnoticed Cis Privilege
and ways in which to address any issues I may have surrounding them, as Debs & I marry later this year I am anxious not to cause her unneccasary stress over her TGism if I can possibly avoid it .............. many thanks again Batty:)

Not so easy a question.
It could (and should) be the subject of detailed studies and a book or two to answer properly.

To describe the problem succinctly:

By being unaware of others disadvantages and our own privileges can result in unfair judgements of others (like criticisning CDs for being closeted and hiding when the Transphobia they experience pushes them into the closet, becoming frustrated with their struggles with their internalised transphobia and any other result of their experiences) as it will result in unfair expectations of TG people, unfair judgements of their struggles including totally dissmissing they have any additional struggles or risks at all and minimal recognition of their successes.

A simple analogy. If a persons muscles are much weaker than anothers because of a disability what for the stronger person would be a meaningless walk accross the room to get a meal might be the equivalent in the weaker persons efforts of a marathon or climbing a mountain for the strong person. But if the strong person is not fully aware of this they will judge the persons effort and success as meaningless rather than appreciating it for what it is.

Now it gets long and complex. To fairly consider a TG persons situation and efforts one must as much as possible understand their relative circumstances (when often they too will not be aware of them).

The Cis Privilege is the simplest to start with as most CDs as well as GGs will have at least some Cis Privilege as some parts are specifically anatomical and so apply to non-TS CDs. And everyone will have some for of privilege and disadvantage that can enable them to empathise with others once they understand that (even though some will be worse off than others)

Cis privilege is all the advantages you have through your life that come from being Cisgender and/or Cissexual. Most of these, maybe even all, you will be unaware of and take totally for granted and so not be conscious of the fact that TG people do not have these advantages.

We all have varying degrees of privilege. And its good for us all to examine it and be aware of it and consider it across more than the TG issue.

So before anyone examines in detail Cis Privilege we should look at other forms of privilege first. By understanding your own privileges and the way privileges work accross different fields we can better understand and predict the way Cis-Privilege works, understand the all-important intersections especially the way they relate to transphobic violence and perhaps make us all better people.

Rather than start with Male Privilege I'll leave that for a moment because many MtF CDs will only have parts of Male Privilege (and because the assumption that they have male privilege has been used to discriminate against TGs within feminism for some time)

So first lets look at White Privilege. Please read this whole link with it's list of White Privileges (and I'm sure none of these lists are complete).
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html
Heavy stuff huh. And every day White folk go through life not realising thats all working for them, and against non-whites. We pretend we already live in the meritocracy we aspire too.. because our own subjective experience as whites allows us to think that. Because we are fine and the discrimination is not often overt and obvious we can blithely be unaware of it and assume veryone else is, or claim they are actually advantaged and 'playing the race card' etc when they speak out against the discrimination they face.

Now lets examine Male Privilege, but bear in mind that not all of this will apply to every MtF or FtM TG, but that shouldn't let us off the hook. We need to examine ourselves for these privileges.
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/
Now there are some (big) flaws in this list. And we can see some intersections are likely the result of them.
Example:
17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children’s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists were (and are) the default. Well thats quite wrong. It's correct compared to many representations of female characters yes, but there are still very strict male stereotypes that are used. Effeminate non-TG males are rarely seen outside of Anime.

At least the flaw in point 25 is somewhat explored via the 'more' link.

But as you can see, these sorts of lists are largely situationally specific. They will vary from country to country and will vary based on perspective and understanding of the issues. Thats why these lists can only ever be vague guides.

Someone has created a female privilege list in response to that one which is interesting and connects up with TG somewhat. http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2008/06/08/female-privilege/ and there is a further rebuttle of that here http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/faq-female-privilege/

So now onto Cis Privilege.

http://takesupspace.wordpress.com/cis-privilege-checklist/

Now notice that these are all related. The male and female privilege lists show acceptability and advantage involves adherance to sex-based assumptions which still hurt average Cis-folk but are often going to be magnified for TG folk. Note that those privileges identified with masculinity are considered more important.

While that is true on many survival-levels its worth noting that even amongst women femininity and those privileges associated with it are considered often valueless, a notion deeply challenged by MtF TGs valuing them highly enough that those who transition give up male privilege and lose some cis privilege too (stealth TSs may gain some though) and the notion that all gender is choice makes this very problematic for 2ndwave feminsim and resulted in the horrible hostility of Janice Raymond Germaine Greer and others to TG.

The very assumption MtF TGs have male privilege (or that FtMs are so in order to get it) can harm TG people, and this is a really important part of understanding this. Not everyone gets the full benefit of one set of priviliges if another disadvantage dilutes or denies them. Heterosexuality also has a large amount of privileges. Certain religious faiths also result in large amounts of Privileges too, that one being very very country specific. No-one gets off the hook though, we all need to examine and be aware of our many privileges.

Because they do not even out just because everyone has some privileges and some lack of them. They build a pyramid whose effects are found in job-rates, crime statistics, homelessness and more. And built by our lack of awareness and the behaviour and feellings and false assumptions that come from that ignorance we all suffer to some extent.

By understanding these we can judge fairly and act to create more equality and spread understanding to others, whether in a relationship, town, subculture, culture, nation or the world.


The thing about unconscious transphobia is that you will say and do things without realizing it. Unless Debs or someone else points it out to you then you may never know. And since CDs have internalized transphobia they automatically accept that you have a right to treat them differently and hold them to different standards so they are unlikely to call you out on it.

Great post! (all of it not just the quoted bit) It likely helps explain the TG relationship specific aspects much better than I managed in my attempt to explain the whole systemic mechanism.


I honestly don't believe it is possible for anyone to ever rid themselves totally of these feelings because we live in a society which is transphobic and the immorality of these feelings have not been educated into us from birth. It is not something to be overly worried about so long as we are consciously not transphobic then that is the best anyone of us can be realistically be.

While I agree that totally obliterating these indoctrinations may be impossible from knowing overt racists and sexists who have largely overcome their biases I think its important we all do our best to. I disagree about being concerned about it, I think we all should be, but not condemn each other for being unable to cleanse ourselves of it entirely, like not blaming TGs for having Internalised Transphobia I think we shouldn't blame others for having unconcious transphobia. But we should all acknowledge that the right thing to do is to try adn overcome it, internalised and otherwise, without judging each other for having it but helping each other identify it in themselves and helping each other overcome it.

[Deedee Dupree]

Thank you very much Batty for your explanation and all the links in this and other threads, can make no comment for the time being without further study.:thumbsup:

[Fab Karen]

and ways in which to address any issues I may have surrounding them, as Debs & I marry later this year I am anxious not to cause her unneccasary stress over her TGism if I can possibly avoid it .............. many thanks again Batty:)
Satrana made some good points. I would also suggest sitting down & talking together about daily life of being together, what you both need & what can be compromised IF NEED BE ( and that works two ways despite the attitude of some GG's on the subject ).