Unacceptance amongst us...

[Tal'Aura]

Jolan Tru,

I'm not too sure if the title of this thread is appropriate enough, but I hope you will get a meaning.

A long time ago I realized nothing is at it seems, especially if you scratch the surface. At first sight, most crossdressers are nice and polite people, but their true nature will come out if you try to know them more personally. Therefore, in some cases pleasant words covers up hidden hostility, obsession with self and the competitive spirit. Let's face it - crossdressing is very self-oriented activity and others are sometimes treated like some kind of threat or competition. On the other hand, if you are not good looking you will be avoided like the plague and discarded on a more or less sophisticated way.

My point is why there is so much insincerity and why is physical appearance so overvalued? Some persons only accept those like themselves and reject everyone who is different. I think it is very hypocritical to expect acceptance from the rest of world while we don't accept each other. Ironically, it seems to be easier to make true friends out of ordinary people.

[LisaM]

I thinks CDs are just like everyone else---we tend to drift towards people who are more or less like ourselves.

Go to a CD/TG conference and you will see tall girls sitting with each other; pretty girls sitting with each other; older girls sitting with each other; GGs sitting with each other; younger girls sitting together.

The same thing happens in the real world---and yes, it is not always fair or nice. And it can be hypocritical but people are always looking for people like themselves.

I guess I expect the same behavior from everyone and I am extremely grateful when I or others can reach beyond this behavior.

[Kate Simmons]

This is one reason I eventually left the TG org I started out in when I came "out". It seems that many put the emphasis on physical appearance and "passing" and miss the point that it is really about feelings. By concentrating on the feelings and who we are as a person it only naturally gravitates towards others and the ability to be empathetic. In other words once we realize it's not just about us we finally begin to "get it". It's really about making the most of life and not just crossdressing although CDing can help to open new possibilities to us if we take the iniative.:)

[battybattybats]

Indeed.

I think this mainly is caused by internalised transphobia, where passing is held as high value and where our own egos are desperatly brittle and craving validation. Hostility based on how close or not you fit the mainstream ideal is a wel-known factor in internailsed oppression, one example being lighter-skinned black people being hostile to darker skinned ones. Mixed with more than a little bias on beauty too, called Imagism.

Of course some people are always going to be emotionally under-developed etc but more of that sort of thing occurs much more often in oppressed groups which lessens as self-acceptance overcomes more of the internalised oppression, as the community strength and support grows and as we are able to validate ourselves and each other and receive more validation from the outside world.

[Karren H]

So what's the difference between here and society in general? Its the real world!! Just the way people are!! Like it or not.. It not perfect so better get use to it...

I could care less how you look as long as your sincere and honest.. Oh and you have to love ice hockey a lot!! People that don't love ice hockey have some kind of personality defect!! Lol.

[Sarah...]

My point is why there is so much insincerity and why is physical appearance so overvalued?

Hi :)

Maybe how people of all genders are portrayed by the media has to take some responsibility for the over-valuation of physical appearance?

As for insincerity - my own view is that individuals are routinely told what rights they have, as consumers, as men, as women, as employees, as employers, as members of our society. There is nothing wrong with rights but they are often confused for absolute rights. And that's a different thing altogether. Try thinking about three of Mahatma Ghandi's seven modern deadly sins:

Pleasure without Conscience
Knowledge without Character
Commerce without Morality

Interesting, don't you think?

Sarah x

[Sheila]

So what's the difference between here and society in general? Its the real world!! Just the way people are!! Like it or not.. It not perfect so better get use to it...


There is no real Difference Karen .... maybe some find it easier to let go on the net for good or bad, but we are just like an real life community, good, bad indifferent, we make friends with some and dislike others (not neccesairly spotted by arguing with the same person .. I know I can argue points with someone and do it fiercly, without hating the person, just disliking their views)

[docrobbysherry]

So what's the difference between here and society in general? Its the real world!! Just the way people are!! Like it or not.. It not perfect so better get use to it...


Add to that, people dress for MANY different reasons. And, like the non-CD population, often go in VERY different directions AFTER they've established a fem identity!:brolleyes:

[Shelly Preston]

So what's the difference between here and society in general? Its the real world!! Just the way people are!! Like it or not.. It not perfect so better get use to it...



I agree with Karen
All we are is one small part of society
It would be nice to think we are all a bit more tolerant but there will be times when some people choose to be different

Its something we have grown up with since we were small children
How wonderful would it be if everyone was accepting of each other

This is not limited to our community

[Holly]

Perhaps the greatest problem of unacceptence stems not from those who surround us but from s/he who is within us. Until we can stop depending on others for validation and be content (and happy) being who we are, we will forever be disappointed. It is so much easier to accept and embrace the differences around us once we can accept and embrace the differences within ourselves.

[Mary Morgan]

I don't think crossdressing has anything to do with your observation about acceptance or the lack thereof. What you say is true of some but not all, and it is no different in any other form of human endeavor. Every one of us has likes and dislikes. When it comes to dislikes, I try to say no thank you in the kindest way, and yes I am drawn to those things I like. Crossdressing is a part of my life, being transgender and trying to always find a balance is who I am. I surround myself with people who share common views and goals. From those who don't I try to learn and understand them. In the end I say to each is own, and may you live long and prosper.

[Carly D.]

I hate to say it because I hate the term because everyone uses it but : cross dressing "is what it is" (dontcha just hate that??) what I mean by that is that it means different things to different people.. truth is for me I wear womens clothes but really don't pass, not really.. I would like to pass but that would mean wearing makeup and I'm not the kind of person who wants to present myself that way.. I would like to once just see what I would look like fully made up and dressed up as if I were truelly female but I am not that way 99% of the rest of my dressing up time.. nothing against those who do look that way.. I have always likes wearing womens clothing because I really like the way it feels but up until about nine years ago when I bought a costume wig never even thought about trying to look completely female..

[ssandy]

The bigger hearted person will take time to look at a person from the inside.
Real life has always been about who is more beautiful on the outside and who has the most money.
Stay with those who love you and ignore those who don't care...

[dwyfronwen]

I find some of these posts interesting. When into crossdressing, one should set one`s standards, and decide on what type of person you wish to be in your alter ego. Age, build, attitudes are all part of life; some we can change, others we cannot. I am set on being a benevolent older lady, motherly, aunt next door neighbour type, and avoid cattiness etc. Also I was advised that when en femme it is better to smile as you relax. There are fewer muscles used that in a frown. If smiling and happy I find that nasty thoughts and ideas are far from my mind. Cattiness is for the competitive, the dominant and such like; peace and tranquilty bring greater benefit all round. Such friendliness is a great advantage when out and about and shop staff and passers by are more ready to help, even if the suspect or have read one. Here`s to many happy years more in skirts.

[Orlee]

This thread is very interesting. It's not really about competition for me, well maybe a little bit. I wanna be attractive. I want girls and guys to want to kiss me. But it's also about sharing experiences, making friends. We have a huge something in common as CD's.

It's not like liking the same sport, CD'ing is something much more personal so I bet most CD can easily befriend each other, no need for cattiness. :)

Just my :2c:

-Orlee

[Lisa Golightly]

My point is why there is so much insincerity and why is physical appearance so overvalued? Some persons only accept those like themselves and reject everyone who is different.

Is there? Is it? Do they? I have no experience of any of this...

[Lorileah]

We are but a microcosm of the world. It has been stated above many times and it is true. It is one reason that I don't like going out to TG places and events.

I have been to Trans bars where I spent the whole night being snubbed and ridiculed, because I was new in the territory. I have been at Coronation where I was ignored and sneered at because I didn't wear the 40 pound sequin gown and I actually dressed more like a person would on the town and I have been to a certain sorority group where I was told I was to far out to fit in. On the other side of that coin, at the T-bar I met a person who made no bones about the fact "he" was a guy in dress and had a great conversation with him and his SO. At the Coronation I was embraced by a Cycle**** who made me feel welcome and we had a great time. At the Goldrush I found several girls who I could fit in with. The best times have been at non T-bars where I am treated like a welcome friend because I am not competition but often the center of attention for dancing and socializing.

Now if I had the guts to be like MissConstrued and be myself at the local bar:daydreaming:

[Deedee Dupree]

I have also observed the same thing here and when I have been in clubs... especially clubs. I had a bad exp. with a local support group when I started out, made me feel more isolated... but all that has been covered here so many times already.

On the positive side, having been here a little over a year I've noticed quite a few people's POV's change for the better, and my overall view and understanding has expanded & improved as well, especially concerning people whose paths and goals are much different than mine.

As far as ice hockey goes, and without getting political, the Americans beating the Russians, was greatest thing for America since that "giant leap for mankind".

dd

[Noxvictum]

Saw something about a TG conference, and how everyone groups up. Who remembers highschool? Same thing. Think about work. Those of us that work in smaller places prolly wont see it so much, but those of you who work in large offices and what not will see that like people hang out. Humans are extremely social animals, and it's always easier being with people like ourselves than pretending to be something we're not. I know more than a few of us have been there. It's a shitty fact of life, but a fact none the less. And of course appearances are important. Thats the first thing we notice about people, once you take the internet out of the equation. Rest of our senses, Common Sense included, don't make judgement calls until later. Whoever made this game, I'm taking my toys and going home. This game sucks. :P

[Nicole Erin]

My point is why there is so much insincerity and why is physical appearance so overvalued? Some persons only accept those like themselves and reject everyone who is different. I think it is very hypocritical to expect acceptance from the rest of world while we don't accept each other. Ironically, it seems to be easier to make true friends out of ordinary people.

You are right, it actually IS easier to make friends with non-TG folks [if that is what you meant by ordinary] Non-TG folks don't get wrapped up in all the BS.

Why are looks so important? Cause people are shallow. They think that just cause someone has a nice looking outer cover that the person must be really fascinating. People forget though that once you get to know someone, their looks don't even matter.

I don't hate people based on color or beauty or age or whatever, I pretty much hate everyone equally. :thumbsdn:

[MissConstrued]

I have been to Trans bars where I spent the whole night being snubbed and ridiculed, because I was new in the territory. I have been at Coronation where I was ignored and sneered at because I didn't wear the 40 pound sequin gown and I actually dressed more like a person would on the town and I have been to a certain sorority group where I was told I was to far out to fit in.

It's horror stories like that keep me away from the trans/gay bars and such TG events... oh, and the fact that I'm after women who like men might have something to do with it. :D

I can definitely relate to the non-competitive environment at the plain old straight bar, though. It's fun to be unique. It doesn't hurt either that the biggest, meanest regulars think I'm pretty cool, so any trouble would be quickly put down. So I suppose there's something to be said for familiar turf.




Now if I had the guts to be like MissConstrued and be myself at the local bar:daydreaming:

Every dive needs a tranny! Especially where there's karaoke! And I'm sure there's a few yet that don't have one of their own. :)



As to the OP... pretty simple. Birds of a feather and all that. Reprehensible to some, but normal human behavior.

[sissystephanie]

A long time ago I realized nothing is at it seems, especially if you scratch the surface.[QUOTE=Tal'Aura;]

Nothing is as it seems, but only if that is your own thought process! If you go thru life questioning everything, you will never really enjoy life. Some things are just meant to be taken at face value.

[QUOTE=Tal'Aura;]Let's face it - crossdressing is very self-oriented activity and others are sometimes treated like some kind of threat or competition. On the other hand, if you are not good looking you will be avoided like the plague and discarded on a more or less sophisticated way.[QUOTE=Tal'Aura]

Of course crossdressing is a self-oriented activity! How could it be anything else? But who is treating someone as some kind of threat or competition? As far as being avoided like the plague if you are not good looking, where in the world does that idea come from? Judging from the pictures on this Forum, there are a lot of us girls who are not beauties! Just who is avoiding us?

[QUOTE=Tal'Aura]My point is why there is so much insincerity and why is physical appearance so overvalued? Some persons only accept those like themselves and reject everyone who is different. I think it is very hypocritical to expect acceptance from the rest of world while we don't accept each other. Ironically, it seems to be easier to make true friends out of ordinary people.[/COLOR]

Where is the insincerity, Tal? And just who is overvaluing physical appearance? Sure there may be some CD's who act like that, but I think that the majority of us on the Forum do not think, or act that way! Your last sentence about making true friends is actually kind of funny! After all, we all are ordinary people!! We just happen to like to dress differently than others! But that doesn't change who we really are!

Smile and the world smiles with you! Frown and you frown alone! Try to smile and enjoy life, instead of looking for fault everywhere!

:hugs::hugs:

[GaleWarning]

If each of us would only concentrate on those many things which we have in common and not those few things which make us different from one another, the whole world would be a happier, friendlier place.

If each of us actively set out to do only those things which made life easier for others, and not to do anything which made life more difficult for others, life would be a breeze for all of us.

By striving to be on good terms with others, rather than to pick a fight with them, each of us has the power to make this world a better place.

[Tal'Aura]

So what's the difference between here and society in general? Its the real world!! Just the way people are!!

This can be a valid answer because it is supported by facts, other opinions or statistics, but this hardly can be an excuse for being two-faced person. If the whole world is going to jump off the skyscraper, would you follow them? I wish to believe some of us are trying to be better persons who will not justify their flaws by someone else's wrongdoing. Let me use this example to make a point here: suppose that someone don't want to be seen with you in public because you are not pretty / passable or whatever and s/he says this is perfectly normal because this is the way how society works and nobody ,including CD/TG community, doesn't like ugly / strange / weird people. How to accept such kind of answers?

Maybe all this is beyond my comprehension and I am not ashamed to admit that...

Jolan Tru

[Karren H]

This can be a valid answer because it is supported by facts, other opinions or statistics, but this hardly can be an excuse for being two-faced person. If the whole world is going to jump off the skyscraper, would you follow them?
Jolan Tru

Well I'm just telling it like it is and not how it should be.. And what they do is not what I do... If the whole friggin world went and jumped off a building I'd be at the mall looking for clearence sales!!! Hopefully one of the sales clerks wouldn't follow the rest of the world so she could take my money!! Hahaha.

[sterling12]

Because an awful lot of people are very superficial? And possibly, it's because a lot of people aren't bright enough to see past exteriors.

The only thing you can do about it, is become the a "force of one!" I'm going to differ with some of the others. I don't think we have to accept The Idea of: "That's just the way the world is...get over it." There are people as individuals that CAN make a difference! Since you noticed what was going on, you have a "leg-up." YOU can start the trend, you CAN do something about it.....you just have to start.

peace and Love, Joanie

[Joy Carter]

Myself, I'd not let it ruin your day if someone snubbed you. There are plenty of us real people out there who accept you without reservation. Oh I gotta go. I have a reservation for dinner at six. LoL

[linnea]

I have felt that the level of acceptance on this forum has always been very high. Maybe I've just been lucky.

[tricia_uktv]

I can only do what I can do myself. I can't be anybody else's protector. Surely we have to try to educate them?

[RachR]

This can be a valid answer because it is supported by facts, other opinions or statistics, but this hardly can be an excuse for being two-faced person. If the whole world is going to jump off the skyscraper, would you follow them? I wish to believe some of us are trying to be better persons who will not justify their flaws by someone else's wrongdoing. Let me use this example to make a point here: suppose that someone don't want to be seen with you in public because you are not pretty / passable or whatever and s/he says this is perfectly normal because this is the way how society works and nobody ,including CD/TG community, doesn't like ugly / strange / weird people. How to accept such kind of answers?
Jolan Tru
I have to agree with Karren on this. People will be who they are: be that kind, mean, or two-faced. This has nothing to do with making excuses for people's behavior. If someone behaves poorly (from my perspective) towards me I don't go looking for reasons why they behave that way and justify what they say/do. Sometimes you just have to let things go; it's not the easiest thing in the world, but that's the best way to deal with it. Also, you have to not blame yourself for how they treat you (again, not easy to do).

As for your example, you accept those kinds of behaviors/answers by not associating with those people. If someone is "ashamed" of you, leave them be and find someone who isn't. Just because you share something in common with someone that doesn't automatically mean you have to share everything in common, especially personality. Once you get to know someone you make the decision of wanting to be around them or not. As has been said by others, people will group up according to shared similarities. Statistically speaking opposites do not attract.

Sometimes the saying "Mean People Suck" is entirely fitting and that's the only way to deal with it. It would be a wonderful world if everyone could get along, and even be accepting within their own circles (such as the TG/TS/CD community), but unfortunately that's just not reality.

-Rachael

PS Karren, I love hockey, but I love to wear women's pants/jeans/shorts/capris when I dress. Can we still be friends? :tongueout

[battybattybats]

I can only do what I can do myself. I can't be anybody else's protector. Surely we have to try to educate them?

Can't we all be each others protectors? Isn't that in fact why we are a communal species like Wolves, Bats and Ants and not a singular species like Snakes, Crocodiles and Sharks? That there is extra safety strength and power in a group than alone.

Mutual cooperation for mutual benefit, protecting the weak sick and elderly so that if you become weak sick and elderly you too receive that protection?

We do need to educate ourselves and others on a constant basis. Learning is an endless process not an attained point.

We need to build a culture of support in our community. Where those who get it wrong are helped to learn rather than shunned.

We know there is a high suicide rate amongst TG people. High levels of depression, anxiety, substance abuse and deferrment behaviours. Caused by being in a discriminated against marginalised group with high levels of Internalised Oppression.

By building a culture of help, validation, love and understanding just like other groups who've been through this before us did we can help ourselves and each other and society.

[Tal'Aura]

I have felt that the level of acceptance on this forum has always been very high. Maybe I've just been lucky.

To be completely honest, there is a general friendly atmosphere on this forum, despite some things that are irritating and appearing not to change. However, this is just a forum board and most of users here are from United States. The situation is completely different in a small countries like mine. Speaking from personal experience I realized that whole local TG/TS/CD population is a mixture of hostile, unfriendly, competitive, selfish, sexually obsessed and superficial persons. Yeah, let me guess - people are naturally prone to bad behaviour so I can't blame them because this is problem of our society and it's impossible to get along with everyone. I know that. But I also know I still haven't managed to get along with a single person (from my country). Disappointment is waiting on every corner. I really hate to turn this post into my self-pity story, but I guess this is the only way to explain what I mean...

Jolan Tru

[Sarah Doepner]

I believe it is a basic human condition, modified a little by the society we live in. Jocks sit with the Jocks, the Bankers sit with the other Bankers and the winos sit with other winos. In the CD/TG world those who pass the best seem to hang with others who pass the best. Those who want to be out and outlandish attract others with the same attitude and on and on it goes depending on how you define and classify the group you are looking at. I don't know if that is unacceptance or just a self-sorting process we are seeing.

This is not always the case, but it's so common that it can be seen all the time and the alternate and better examples ignored. I've been with other large groups of TG folks who ranged from CD to TS, from passing great to not at all and there was support and friendship. I guess I'm reluctant to paint it all with a broad brush. For the largest part the members of this forum are wonderful supportive people and I would be honored to have them as my friends. But there are probably a few who have enough differences from me that I would just stay away from. It's not that I don't accept them, it's just we don't share enough to benefit from being closer.

Are we competative? Yep, it's a survival trait. Does it manifest in our crossdressing? Probably. I try to compete against what I see in the magazines and walking down the street and through the malls. Does it change the way I react to other CDs? I don't know, but it probably does. I'll have to think about that more before I wind up jumping in with both feet.

I was in a situation recently where a group of us were out and having a good time. We were recognized for who we are, but with good humor and some admiration as well. Everyone was having a good time, but one girl had way too much to drink and I felt it reflected back negatively on the rest of us. I don't know her well and don't have the time, energy or desire to deal with any personal issues she has. I choose not to associate with her if she is going to behave that way. Is that competitive or unaccepting and is it wrong? I don't think so but some may think I'm wrong here.

This forum is an opportunity for us to break down some of the barriers and define some of the terms we use so we can communicate and learn. I've learned a lot and I'm learning that I have a lot more questions to ask in the future.

[Nicki B]

Speaking from personal experience I realized that whole local TG/TS/CD population is a mixture of hostile, unfriendly, competitive, selfish, sexually obsessed and superficial persons.

How does that compare to the general population, where you live? Is it only the trans-girls who behave like that?

Concentrating on people's appearance does seem to be influenced culturally - but I believe there's some kind of 'hard-wiring' in humans, too.. :sad:

There was research published this week about what people earn, in relation to their size and shape - on average, if you are small, or skinny - then you will earn less.

[MELISSA2U]

sometimes i think there should be discernment.what i mean by this is i have met those i would never go out with...i can give examples....but i am talking of those whom really have no clue on how to behave.there are those that are clueless on how women behave and socialize in public.....
i am not a judgemental person.....but,all i could think of doing is not associate with them
melissa

[battybattybats]

sometimes i think there should be discernment.what i mean by this is i have met those i would never go out with...i can give examples....but i am talking of those whom really have no clue on how to behave.

How will they learn if no-one teaches them?


there are those that are clueless on how women behave and socialize in public.....

Including many GGs! Seriously there are heaps of socially awkward people in every group. And women are not immune. There are GG ladettes so there may be CD ladettes too. And of course theres many types of women.


i am not a judgemental person.....but,all i could think of doing is not associate with them

Again, how will thy learn if no-one teaches, guides or helps them?

[noeleena]

Hi... If i say i deal with many people . & i am out in the fireing line . i am not talking about a few people here (( i am not refering to the forums )) people i meet through our clubs . & womens groups & outings so we are looking at a few 1000. people .. & yes i meet & see many . & many will know me & know of me ...just some thing i do . now . if i tell you how i dress . male or female you will put a tag on me . then say .((me )) your a ............
.. How am i accepted .. i hope .. as a person. first & formost ... not what i wear ..some of you will know i have been on the t v.s & so on .. so i cant hide . yet i am accepted now most of the people i am involved with are just normal people . not trans . or what ever . Having been in austraila i got to know many people there as well . trans as well . that time . i interact with them . so am i accepted ... as a person . i must be as i have not had any one say ... any thing nasty to my face or been told by others ... now it has to do with attitude . how you get on with people . shops you know .where ever . gas station. . i talk to those people & some i see day after day , once a week . what ever ...like i say i did not say how i dressed . why because that is not the issue.. its how we get on with people ..i learnt from my back ground .. i should have known better. never mind i did.nt . accept other people even if you dont agree. as i said on two other forums .because . i am different . i accept others we were talking about differences between two groups of people . & like here we see some things a bit differnt to each other . does that stop us from accepting each other with those differences ... no.. we live .. work .. & see things differently .. so why not accept that & we can get on & help each other as well. not cause divisions . because some only dress some times & others are out if you like full time ..i really dont have any bothers about how you dress or not . i accept the person .. any way may be i see things from both sides of the fence .. & accept those differences . so what i see is . is as a woman ..
...noeleena...

[MELISSA2U]

good morning all-
originally when i posted i debated on wether or not to post what i am going to post,it isnt obscene or obnoxious,but,
this may help batty understand my position further...
1. there is a person,whom i shall refer to as mary.mary doesnt pass very well,which was the least of marys' problems.i suspected mary might have some serious mental illness,or just chooses to be how mary is.i was approached by many of my gg friends....as mary made my gg friends feel very threatened.at this point , i had to make a decision...and stick with it.it surely was not comfortable,but let me share more about mary.
mary was a person whom was an very aggressive person,and
enjoyed being in peoples' faces type.
this person had no fashion sense,no ability to even choose proper make up to use(note i had a problem with make up for a period of time...one of my gg friends and her three nieces choose to show me the correct way to choose and apply make-up...., this included having an open mind to listen).
mary wants to do everything marys' way.ie. with the foundation...she wanted to use foundation that was way too dark, that would be commonly be used for a mexican lady , med skin indian , or light skined black woman.mary insisted on using this foundation...
now about behavior: mary and i went to ross , a dept store,
of which , i was checking out clothes to wear for myself,but also helping mary to choose some clothes that would be more appropriate for marys' age,and what would commonly is worn by women of her age.the problem started becoming obvious to me, when i heard yelling in the deepest possible voice mary had....when i was in the womens' change room, trying a few outfits,
that mary had rights,including pulling out a birth certificate that reflected marys' chosen /preferred gender on it.the problem continued on, even though i had gg friends sit down and talk with the both of us, my gg friends tried to explain as i did also that women do not yell in the deepest possible voice,nor throw temper tantrums,nor threaten people.i mentioned this to the therapist of marys' , as knowing the both of them. tell me something,even with some females that are rough around the edges a bit....the majority of women.....especially around other women.....they fairly much behave in a similar manner.not mary, she cant be told.mary arrived at a part time job i took on for a while, even though,
i told mary not to show up at my work.marys' behavior was completely and totally uncalled for,even made my employer whom was a male ....very afraid of mary.this was a typical behavior. there was times i was even a bit worried about my safety.mary insisted on waking me a few times at 3 in the morning,and even though i calmly explained why this was not an acceptable behavior , mary again,wants to do things her way.
let me give some more information here....i have a friend....with one retired policeman...whom had over 30 yrs of experience in law enforcement.he knew mary,and some of marys' backround.when mary has not gotten her way...
she has been known to use violence,ie. gun,etc.this policeman friend whom knew mary, and myself even said it was not safe for me to be around this person.
i made a couple more attempts of trying to help mary,at the point of approx 9 months to a year, i became at the point of having enough of marys' behavior, and decided i wanted no more to do with mary.i did my best,however, there are some people that are not willing to even listen to some of the smallest of suggestions.mary would insist on wearing mu-mus all the time, however, this is totally inappropriate way of dress for her age,and would become violent when i re-directed her to age more appropriate clothing,and then she would tell me that she knew better than i .
some people i learned just will not listen.
after marys' surgery , mary had to go around telling everyone mary met..." she had the surgery" , wether she knew them or not.that is also totally inappropriate.if mary would have listened ...., mary could have i think been able to live in some peace of sorts.
i stopped my involvement prior to marys' surgery, as i didnt have the time to continually get into this with mary, as she would consume or try to consume a majority of my time.
i thought about what my gg friends said,the friend of mine whom is a retired police officer whom knew mary( he didnt like mary at all,and no,it wasnt her gender.....i know this as this police officer friend has a son whom is involved with a ts-f,and i know what his attitude towards this is ) , a few other ts friends whom are post op. there is a point where a person crosses the line, and you just have to walk away.
in my opinion, which i may be the minority in opinion on this...
in the harry benjamin standards of care, a while back,mary would not have been even approved for hrt.again, behavior of marys' suggests some kind of serious mental illness, all in itself isnt a reason to totally deny a person to transition...but i think the whole picture should be examined by a psychologist prior to surgery..., especially in marys' case, and while you only have my word for what occured, i do not lie,nor would i consider that.i consider lying a form of deceit, of which , i have no respect for.


let me tell you of another person of which i tried to help :
i will call this person candy ( not her real name).candy had alot of i suspect ...issues also, AND YES, WE ALL HAVE OUR ISSUES....TO WIT: i have been diagnosed with a mental disorder ,myself called post traumatic stress disorder,
of which , even in public i dont act like either mary nor candy in any way. i have respect for myself. i took candy in originally as i felt sorry for candy.again, this is one of those situations in which you have to balance what is best for you,and all concerned.candy had caused over $10 k in damage to my bathroom, by causing water to overflow,among other things that had occurred.
one of my therapists i formerly seen refused to even deal with candy, but i will continue.
candy would flaunt herself in public. in candys' eyes, the public HAD TO ACCEPT HER. this is not just reality.
despite candys' size,and she didnt pass in any way, i continued to try to work with candy. i was shopping at a wal mart one day....candy decided she would tell every one in the store she was on hormones.i do not know what she was getting from this...i truly do not.the original therapist that approved the hormones to be started should have never approved the hormones in my opinion. there are some people out there that should not be taking hrt period. it isnt about being mean...truly.
the standards of care i think in part were to protect the especially person whom wanted to transition, as we know this is totally irreversible,and i think partially the public to a small degree....ie. women in particular,as a person that is a threat ....in any way .....,and to be able to function in that gender role
and like mary, this person also threw temper tantrums.
i have yet to see a woman do this, i have seen some women get upset at a person, which is a totally different situation.
i am not saying i am a know it all, but there are things that people just do not understand,which is why i am giving a few examples of behavior,and despite again me trying to re-direct this person, this person wouldnt listen.
with mary,she had an alcohol,drug problem.i can respect going to groups such as aa.i say this as i have been sober 19 yrs,2 weeks+ ,so i am a supporter of aa.when i went with candy to an aa meeting in the deepest possible voice ,candy said i am candy, alcoholic & an addict,i am on hormones,in transition,and i wish to share that melissa is on hormones and is in transition also.
this was a totally unacceptable behavior.candy didnt like the fact i did pass,and candy did not in any way.candy would get violently angry about this,so much so,that she punched my dog ,even twisted the dogs' ear.my dog didnt do anything to deserve that,as she was a very sweet ,loving dog.unfortunately,a while back ...approx 2.5 yrs ago,when i reported a person for mis-treating their animal,they came over,and killed my dog i believe...and unfortunately , there wasnt proof as to whom did it,even though, i believe it was a guy whom was gay,that didnt like me reporting him to animal control for serious mis-treatment of his dog...i could describe this...but it makes me sick how he treated his dog,and i am sure it would sicken others..., and i will spare the details.

batty, all due respect i do think there are some that you just cant teach this to.
again, i am not judgemental, but just stating as the facts are.i have friends whom are drag-queens that do not act this badly.they conduct themselves in a manner of which,i have no problem in being with them in public,and i hold these people in high regard,as they treat me with RESPECT and DIGNITY...
where these people i have described,no matter what i said,they wouldnt listen.

again, i do think the harry benjamin standards of care are there for a reason.I AM NOT AGAINST NO ONE......truly...
but i ask that this be considered in your opinion.
have a nice am
melissa

[Samantha Kelsey]

Surely you must have noticed this in all of the human race. Replace the tag CD with any other tag and those people are the same.

[Mary Morgan]

So the point is, what are we going to do to change how people treat each other?. All we can do is treat each other with respect. whether we agree or disagree respect can be maintained. Maybe one by one, we'll become a better society.

[battybattybats]

Melissa, regarding 'Mary',
Yes she clearly has issues.

However I have known GGs who throw violent tantrums, who demand to have their way with makeup and who dress ways others would call inappropriate for their age.

These are often things reall GGs do do! The wife of a good friend of mine threw her past boyfriend down the stairs physically resulting in broken bones even though he was over a foot taller than him when she caught him cheating. That too is something 'women don't so' except when they do it. Because they do do those things. Eevn if we dont like to acknowledge that they do.

This is one of my problems with the Stepford-Wives sort of thing pushed on many TG people, that they must be perfectly average, thats not realistic nor reasonable. Nor is it reasonable that she had to be silent about getting the surgery either.

However that she's clearly someone with massive issues is without doubt.

Now with people having issues, yeah these are common. But people have differening levels of resiliance. I know a person who went to pieces with just one single moderatly bad sexual experience and I know another who has survived well despite several gang-rapes and several years of regular childhood sexual assault. Different people respond in different ways. We should not judge people just because some respond differently or less successfully to trauma.


i truly do not.the original therapist that approved the hormones to be started should have never approved the hormones in my opinion. there are some people out there that should not be taking hrt period. it isnt about being mean...truly.

Then what is it about?


the standards of care i think in part were to protect the especially person whom wanted to transition, as we know this is totally irreversible,

The rate of regret is very tiny. It makes sense to help ensure people are making a fully informed decision with transition where possible its true, but often thats note how this gate-keeper role functions.


and i think partially the public to a small degree....

What.. the.. f.. that makes no sense to me and is a very very very disturbing comment.


ie. women in particular,

Again HUH? You do know that GGs also commit rape and murder and child abuse don't you? That in fact GGs seem more often to do so per proportion of population that TGs?


as a person that is a threat ....in any way .....,

GGs are also a possible threat to GGs. So I don't understand your comment unless an incorrect and maybe sex-stereotype-based assumption is in there somewhere.


and to be able to function in that gender role

A violent TG will fit the gender role of a violent GG just fine. If however we pretend GGs are not ever violent then we are being sexist.


and like mary, this person also threw temper tantrums.


As do plenty of GGs.. my Aunt, my Great-Aunt, my ex-GF, my friends Wife...


i have yet to see a woman do this, i have seen some women get upset at a person, which is a totally different situation.

Then there are lots of types of GGs you've never met or witnessed angry. I have however. Including having to defend myself against a couple or defend others against a GGs physical attack.


d despite again me trying to re-direct this person, this person wouldnt listen.

True, some people do need proffessional help and no-one will be able to get through to them. again I have a little personal experience of this.


when i went with candy to an aa meeting in the deepest possible voice ,candy said i am candy, alcoholic & an addict,i am on hormones,in transition,and i wish to share that melissa is on hormones and is in transition also.
this was a totally unacceptable behavior.

Yes. A breach of privacy is unethical behaviour. Mentally ill people however are often unethical because their judgement is influenced by the illness.


batty, all due respect i do think there are some that you just cant teach this to.

Only those so deeply ill that professional help is needed. And perhaps for some of those things you tried to teach them they may have had a point to some degree?


again, i am not judgemental, but just stating as the facts are.i have friends whom are drag-queens that do not act this badly.

Ah well, the behaviour you've described falls into two catagories. Ethical but different and unethical.

Much of the stuff in the former, including clothing, makeup, choosing to out oneself and be boisterous are in general unfair criticisms and unethical to judge others by.

The second catagory which includes outting you by disclosing confidential information, threats of violence and the harming of your dog are all unethical.. but are sure not unheard of in any of the towns i've lived in for women to do. Just the outting was sexuality or other personal info.

And of course mny mentaly ill people do act out in self-destructive and other ways, depending on the nature of their illness and depending on thir personality and resilliance and the way they cope.


again, i do think the harry benjamin standards of care are there for a reason.

Some kind of guide for practitioners is important but the current ones are petty flawed. The considering TS as a psychiatric condition at all is wrong when evidence shows its a neurological variation with psychological co-morbidities.

The people you describe have clear issues, they have those co-morbidities or have unrelated mental illnesses.

And these are going to be very common in our community untill we improve our community. We need to all learn better how to handle the mentally ill, not just TG folk but the whole of society which has been severely stygmatising.

But with seriously disturbed people proffessional help is going to be needed.


I AM NOT AGAINST NO ONE......truly...
but i ask that this be considered in your opinion.
have a nice am

I believe you. But a few of your statements suggest unfair judgements on some things, including sex-stereotypes of GGs behaviour and expression.

As for those most broken by their experiences or the random strike of mental health.. we cant all be heroes or doctors for everyone, but as a community neither should we abandon them. We should look further into those communities that have successfully helped their most psychologically wounded members to help us on that matter.

[TxKimberly]

As others have already pointed out, this exists in society as a whole, it is not an artifact only of the TG community. Anyone that has gone through high school is well aware that the beautiful people are treated better than the rest by their peers and their superiors (in the case of school - the teachers).
Does that mean you can't complain about it or wish it were to change? Not at all - it IS still something that we can not be proud of, but at least it's a human flaw, not just a TG thing.
I have now met a LOT of TG's in person, and I've got to tell you that as a general rule, the ones that aren't so passable are usually a lot more fun to talk to. They often have a great sense of humor and don't take themselves, or others, too seriously.

On the shallow side, I find myself wondering what prompted your post as judging by your avatar, you are not hard to look at yourself.