Are we owed something? [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

Lorileah

05-22-2009, 11:29 PM

This June marks 40 years since the Stonewall riots and the Gay liberation fight. Forty years since everyone associated with GLBT was kept in the closet or in jail, I am not saying that everything is now where it should be but one thing seems to have been glossed over or totally overlooked by our GLB brothers and sisters, It was Drag Queens who were at the root of the start.

The Stonewall Inn was a hangout for DQ's and their admirers. Many of the people arrested were in some sort of female attire. There are arguments as to if the "girls" were true queens or mostly gender benders but he fact remains that "we" had a hand in starting what is now celebrated as the gay revolution.

This June a great many "Pride" fests will be celebrated. But we still remain the ugly step children of the community. We are not part of the Pride. We are tolerated by the community but as a group or sub-set of the community we are still not accepted.

I don't ask for much but this June, I think that we as a group should demand more recognition as at least a central part of the revolution. We should not have to gay, lesbian or bisexual to be part of the PRIDE. The "T" should be at least 25% of the community. We don't have to be loud (but that may not be a bad idea) but we should be there. NOT as flaming queens, Not as militant people, but as part of society. I think we should be accepted just as much as the GLB people and it would be best to start with the community we had a hand in boosting to the point where they are now.

There is a lot of work to be done still until everyone is accepted as equal. We should not be placed in the just tolerated area of the group. All I ask is that the members of the GLBT community treat us as equals. Is that too much to ask? Aren't we owed that much?

This June, be proud, we were after all instrumental in equal rights as they are today, even if they aren't perfect

trannie T

05-23-2009, 12:16 AM

I do not believe that any of us has any entitlement because of what someone else may have done. The actual participants in the Stonewall riots are heros and deserve our thanks, praise and gratitude. I am not entitled to any special honor because I wear a dress a couple times a month.
We are entitled to the same acceptance given to others.
We need to maintain the spirit of Stonewall and continue the fight for our rights.

linnea

05-23-2009, 12:23 AM

I'm all for doing what I can to gain more acceptance for TGs/CDs. What do you think that we, as individuals should do?
Everyone--except criminals--should be accepted and extended the freedom and acknowledgement that our country tries to afford to all. But like a lot of groups, we have to "take" it instead of just having it.
It's frustrating to say the least, but part of the problem is that in this country people can express prejudicial views with impunity, by rights. And nothing prevents ignorance and stupidity.
Do you have any suggests for actions to take?

trannie T

05-23-2009, 02:37 AM

Linnea, there is much we can do. When someone spews trans-phobic statements stand up and correct them. Support those political candidates who will support our rights. Support those organizations who support us. Ignorance and stupidity can and will be conquered by education.

deja true

05-23-2009, 10:20 AM

Do you have any suggests for actions to take?

Here's a thread I put in yesterday, but it travelled down the line so quick nobody saw it...

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107855

ATL is having a 3 day event for a Stonewall Commemoration event... and I bet other cities will be too.

Check your local Trans and LGBT orgs for info. If they've forgotten about this 40 year anniversary thing, then scream and shout now to get them to include some specifically trans events into their June Pride schedule!

Do it!

:straightface:

Lorileah

05-23-2009, 10:31 AM

aw but there's the rub. Call your senator and ask exactly who the transgender people are. They won't even consider crossdressing as transgender. They are protecting the transsexuals the gender dysphobic. It isn't beause they don't care, it is because they don't think about the majority of the people here.

My point was, although maybe not clear, that we as crossdressers are in a world that in neither part of the GLBT community (yes they let us in their establishments which may be better than the entertainment venues of the straights) but we are not PART of their world anymore than we are part of the straight world as far as acceptance.

As we keep saying here we are not drag queens and we are not (all) gay or transsexuals. Yet we are not being included in either world. Yes we are more tolerated in the gay community but talk to gay people and they are just as adamant about if we should dress as the straights are. We are told "Make a choice" meaning we should either be straight or gay and the dressing bothers them just as much as it does your friends and co-workers. We are the lost children.

What I am trying to get across is that 40 years down the road the gays and lesbians have taken control to try and change how they are perceived and how they are treated. On the other hand, we as crossdressers hide in our closets afraid of what our wives, parents and social contacts might think of us. And in many cases the group who should be the most supportive has left us behind. I won't put all the blame on the GLB people when we shriek and hide in corners on our own. We as a group need to follow the lead we actually started 40 years ago. But we won't until we demand the same respect that the GLB community demands and are embraced by at least that same community.

There will be PRIDE rallies all next month. GO be there. Deja posted Atlanta's. Go dressed if you can. Go in drab if you are worried but GO. We need to start coming out of the closets that our brothers and sisters abandoned years ago.

rickie121x

05-23-2009, 10:43 AM

My point was,... that we as crossdressers are in a world that is neither part of the GLBT community .... not PART of their world anymore than we are part of the straight world as far as acceptance..... If our situation were to be identified as genetically based or, say, as a dysphoria, there might be a greater possibility of inclusion or acceptance. However, I don't see that ever happening.

In my eyes, "we" are actually on an upward path in terms of acceptance. Even though much of it has to do with theatrical presentations, and humorous skits, I sense positive change. I wish it were happening more quickly.

Nicki B

05-23-2009, 11:18 AM

I don't think we're 'owed' anything - it's not down to anyone else, BUT US.

Blaming others is a distraction, if we want to make things change.

Jenny Brown

05-23-2009, 01:05 PM

I think that we as a group should demand more recognition as at least a central part of the revolution.
"demand" huh? Let us know how that works out for you, ok?:doh:

kristytv

05-23-2009, 03:19 PM

we are to recieve the same human rights and compassion that the rest of our straight brother/sisters get. no more no less. thats what all this fighting over the years is about

Fab Karen

05-23-2009, 05:41 PM

Every year at Pride time, writers in gay publications ( and online sites ) go over the origin of Pride Month, that it was ( what back then were called ) drag queens who stood up to the police raid, starting things off. I can't speak for Denver, but in general TG's have not been excluded from joining in parades. You're throwing blame out when it is individuals, not the entire gay community which dislikes us. Rather than throw blame, we must take action, THAT will gain more respect & recognition.

TSchapes

05-23-2009, 06:56 PM

What I am trying to get across is that 40 years down the road the gays and lesbians have taken control to try and change how they are perceived and how they are treated. On the other hand, we as crossdressers hide in our closets afraid of what our wives, parents and social contacts might think of us. And in many cases the group who should be the most supportive has left us behind. I won't put all the blame on the GLB people when we shriek and hide in corners on our own. We as a group need to follow the lead we actually started 40 years ago. But we won't until we demand the same respect that the GLB community demands and are embraced by at least that same community.

The Stonewall community was filled with disenfranchised people. I don't believe there were any married with children closeted CDs on the fighting front lines. And now we want equal support? Yes, they did not reach out to the closeted CD segment, and neither did the closeted CDs reach out to the Gay and Lesbian organizations. That doesn't mean we can't now.

But, the difference is, the Gay and Lesbian communities have been encouraging their kind to come out of the closet. Whereas it is a complete struggle to convince the closeted CDs here on this very board to at least come clean to their SO's, let alone be out to the general public. Which ultimately will be the only way we will be teated equally. In other words, we are going to have to earn it. Plain and simple.

It is true that the Gay and Lesbian community struggle to understand the T community. I see this in our own LGBT organization at work, (where the Gays and Lesbians outnumber us T-girls 80 to 1). But as we learn from each other I believe we will be stronger together than to be apart.

So please don't put this all on the Gay and Lesbian communities, we have to look at ourselves first and ask the question, "What have I done for the T community to make it more acceptable to the general public?"

-Tracy

Lorileah

05-23-2009, 11:26 PM

Yes, they did not reach out to the closeted CD segment, and neither did the closeted CDs reach out to the Gay and Lesbian organizations. That doesn't mean we can't now.

But, the difference is, the Gay and Lesbian communities have been encouraging their kind to come out of the closet. Whereas it is a complete struggle to convince the closeted CDs here on this very board to at least come clean to their SO's, let alone be out to the general public. Which ultimately will be the only way we will be teated equally. In other words, we are going to have to earn it. Plain and simple.

I was looking for that answer but was hoping MORE would see that. One of the biggest things on this forum is the "poor me, no one will allow me to be who I am" By rising up we will get the acceptance. By staying home and hiding we will get none.

It is true that the Gay and Lesbian community struggle to understand the T community. I see this in our own LGBT organization at work, (where the Gays and Lesbians outnumber us T-girls 80 to 1). But as we learn from each other I believe we will be stronger together than to be apart.

So please don't put this all on the Gay and Lesbian communities, we have to look at ourselves first and ask the question, "What have I done for the T community to make it more acceptable to the general public?"

-Tracy

I didn't put it all on the GLB community. I specifically said it wasn't. But here's the rub. No one is kept out of the PRIDE fests. Drag Queens (and I know I'll catch it for this because DQ's really do not represent "Us") make the news reels by re-establishing the stereotype of over the top dressers. The CD's are conspicuously absent at these functions , except the local Tri-ess chapter booth.

Funny how the poor me why don't you accept me? people haven't responded. Maybe if we put less emphasis on blending in.

And Jenny yes we should demand just as the gays and lesbians have demanded recognition and equal rights. Remember "we're here we're queer get over it?" WE won't get anything hiding at home.

We have to quit being invisible.

I wanted arguments, I wanted controversy, I wanted people to think about being accepted by both gay and straight communities. Thanks for all who so far have stepped up. Now lets here from the people who continue to hide

MissConstrued

05-24-2009, 01:46 AM

We have to quit being invisible.

I wanted arguments, I wanted controversy, I wanted people to think about being accepted by both gay and straight communities. Thanks for all who so far have stepped up. Now lets here from the people who continue to hide

What'd I miss? I was hiding down at the pub... in disguise.... :D:drink:

Lisa Golightly

05-24-2009, 01:56 AM

I don't think we're 'owed' anything - it's not down to anyone else, BUT US.

Blaming others is a distraction, if we want to make things change.

Indeed... You get out of something what you put into it.

battybattybats

05-24-2009, 04:08 AM

Some of the very members of the uprising at stonewall like Sylvia Rivera WERE kept out of pride marches!

That some Gays pushed TGs out of the picture is a fact.

That Gays came out of the closet in large numbers after stonewall while most closetted CDs satyed in hiding is also a fact.

The TG community IS owed.

It is owed by the Gays who pushed Sylvia and others out because they thought gender-conforming Gays would be more accpted.

It is owed by the Gays and Lesbians who let Gender Identity and Expression (the word expression is the one that covers crossdressers folks!) from ENDA.

It is owed by the Gays and Lesbians who after having fought for their own protections move onto other issues for themselves while ignoring the TG issues they pushed back and said they'd return to.

But above all it is owed to by the CROSSDRESSERS who sat back while Gays and Lesbians and Drag Queens and Transexuals put in money and time and effort into successfully overturning law after law that made CDing illegal while most of our community did nothing.

While they fought for the employment protections, antidiscrimination protections, hate-crime protections and more that many CDs here benefit from often without even knowing they do most of our community did nothing. They put in money, time, effort.

Everytime here I have seen someone complain here or in our community about Drag Queens I have to restrain my anger because those Drag Queens literally risked life and limb at a time when Gay-Bashing was far more common.. the acceptance we get in public was largely won for us by Drag Queens!

The TG community IS owed.
By some small numbers of Gays and Lesbians, But mostly by the majority of silent hiding crossdressers who have comitted not one cent, not one letter.. nothing at all to the community.

That needs to change. We owe it to ourselves, our families, our communities, our children, to the whole darn world to do something.

Shelly Preston

05-24-2009, 04:37 AM

The TG community IS owed.
By some small numbers of Gays and Lesbians, But mostly by the majority of silent hiding crossdressers who have comitted not one cent, not one letter.. nothing at all to the community.

Nothing like condemning the silent majority :Angry3:

As with any subject there will be those who go out and demonstrate there feelings and make them known to everyone and I applaud them for that

There are others who will work behind the scenes to promote our aims and others who preach tolerance to allow people to be themselves

Yes there are some who will do nothing but enjoy any benefits gained. This happens all the time in many places and on many differing subjects

Kate Simmons

05-24-2009, 05:07 AM

I understand what you are saying but it really comes down to the goals and purpose of the individual. One cannot be "visible" and "invisible" at the same time and therein lies a part of the problem. Many want to be able to "pass" so they are undetected by mainstream people. If they achieve that, what is accomplished really? Personal satisfaction perhaps but in essence nothing for the community at large as they are passing off as something they are really not. The nature of the TG beast becomes a conundrum of sorts in this respect, especially when you throw in the "closet" perspective. In the end it has to more or less be accomplishments of a personal nature verses a "full spread" one as "one size" in the TG community does not definately fit all and self acceptance and self comfort are the order of the day before anything else can really be accomplished.:)

vivianann

05-24-2009, 05:29 AM

I do not want to ride on the coattails of the gay and lesbian community. I am doing my part by comming out to the world where I live and work, I talk to many peaple about my choice in the way I dress, and so far I have been accepted by all, peaple have alot of questions, and I answer their questions, and by doing so I dispel all the mith's and stereotypes that peaple thought of us. I am welcomed everywhere I go in my small hometown, and other cities and towns I travel to. I believe that if we go out crossdressed and act and dress appropriately society will accept us as we are, there is no law here in the USA that says we cannot wear dresses, we have the right to crossdress, we need to come out in greater numbers and be visible in society so they can get use to us just like GG's did 40 to 50 yrs ago when they started wearing pants. I am doing my part how about you all.

battybattybats

05-24-2009, 07:13 AM

Nothing like condemning the silent majority :Angry3:

When the majority IS silent entirely on a matter of rights or justice they should be condemned, whether slavery or sexism or anything else.

There are others who will work behind the scenes to promote our aims and others who preach tolerance to allow people to be themselves

Take a darn long hard look at my words you quoted and my regular comments. I explicitly do not condemn those who work behind the scenes. I constantly argue that is ok to be closeted so long as you do something to help and that everyone closetted can do stuff to help while remaining closeted.

I condemned those who did nothing. As they have gained from others blood sweat and tears and owe themselves, those who had sacrificed on their behalf and the community to do far more.

I only condemned those who do nothing.

And of course it takes only a little effort, even behind the scenes, to start paying the debt.

Stephanie Scott

05-24-2009, 08:02 AM

Misty G

05-24-2009, 08:46 AM

I for one have been out there in the public when sometimes I passed and sometimes I didn't for me it didn't make a difference. Both my wife and I have taken part in outreach programs in Atlanta at the University of Ga. at several occasions and would do it again if the opportunity arose. While most of the people I use to work with knew I was a crossdresser due to the type of work I did I didn't go dressed only underdressed.

Nicki B

05-24-2009, 09:07 AM

Perhaps the issue is that many crossdressers especially do not WANT to be included as part of the gay rights movement because they are not gay

Read this (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107895)? :heehee:

One cannot be "visible" and "invisible" at the same time and therein lies a part of the problem. Many want to be able to "pass" so they are undetected by mainstream people.

Isn't that so very often through OUR OWN fear and shame, though? If there wasn't a perceived stigma, why would it matter if you were seen as a cis-woman or a trans-woman?

TxKimberly

05-24-2009, 09:20 AM

First off, I'd like to say well done to the person who started this thread. yaou got people actually thinking and that can be a hell of an accomplishment! I wanted to say so much, just to discover that it has been stated very well by those who have already posted, so I'll sit back here and make comments. You know, like the two old men in the balcony who always make snide comments on the Muppets? (If you don't know what the Muppets are, look for it on youtube. lol)

I do not believe that any of us has any entitlement because of what someone else may have done. The actual participants in the Stonewall riots are heros and deserve our thanks, praise and gratitude. I am not entitled to any special honor because I wear a dress a couple times a month. . .

Exactly. At risk to life and limb, those people fought the battle. None of their glory comes to me simply because I also wear womens clothes. If we want the glory and the pride, WE must earn it.

. . . In my eyes, "we" are actually on an upward path in terms of acceptance. Even though much of it has to do with theatrical presentations, and humorous skits, I sense positive change. I wish it were happening more quickly.

Absolutely no question about this! Look at how many of us spend a great deal of time out and about in the world, and yet you hear VERY few stories of anyone here being mistreated. I could have been in jail countless times if I did half of the things back in the fifties that I do now. Society and the TG/CD HAS come a LONG way.

. . . But, the difference is, the Gay and Lesbian communities have been encouraging their kind to come out of the closet. Whereas it is a complete struggle to convince the closeted CDs here on this very board to at least come clean to their SO's, let alone be out to the general public. Which ultimately will be the only way we will be teated equally. In other words, we are going to have to earn it. Plain and simple.

Again, a very well said comment. The very nature of most cross dressers is the problem here. The vast majority will never step foot out of their homes and would never risk their jobs to be out and fighting for our rights or acceptance. Lest I sound too smug, I'll tell you quite honestly that I wouldn't risk MY job and my means for providing for my wife and children.

. . .

The TG community IS owed.
By some small numbers of Gays and Lesbians, But mostly by the majority of silent hiding crossdressers who have comitted not one cent, not one letter.. nothing at all to the community.

That needs to change. We owe it to ourselves, our families, our communities, our children, to the whole darn world to do something.

I was of course going to mention Batty when I saw where this thread was going. I think some people see her threads and think "Oh God, there goes the intellectual off on another rant about *doing something*" and then the breeze past it. Have you ever stopped to read Batty's posts and threads? Over and over she has tried to point out things that we can do that might make a difference. Ways that we can get involved, often anonymously, that will have an effect. I KNOW there are some here that have done a lot, but honestly, what have the majority of us done to make the world a better place for us and our kind?

Nothing like condemning the silent majority :Angry3:. . .

Shelly, I like and respect you, and so I hope that you wont take this as an attack, it's really not meant that way, but you just emphasized the very point Batty was trying to make. The "majority" of us ARE "silent", and much worse than being silent, we are still. We can be silent and yet still make a contribution - we can vote, we can offer financial support, etc. There are ways to contribute that don't involve a risk to our jobs and families. Better yet, some of us are not afraid to speak up in public and they make a huge difference in the way people see us.

Again, lest I sound "holier than thou" I'll admit that I am not willing to stand at a pulpit speaking for our acceptance. I can not tolerate the risk to my career and ability to provide for my children, but at least I am being honest with myself about it. If I have done nothing to further societies acceptance of Cross Dressers or TG's in general, then I am most certainly NOT owed anything.

Sarah Doepner

05-24-2009, 09:42 AM

We need to move part of this discussion from the CD.com forum to the public forum. With the Pride celebrations that will be coming up in the next month or so, it is an excellent opportunity to do just that. One can write letters and still stay in the closet. If you have successfully moved out of the closet you can do whatever level of outreach you feel comfortable with. There have been many inspiring outreach stories published here. Some of you amaze me, so a belated thanks to you.

The difficult part is finding a way to explain our condition in a way that will be understood by the general public. We ourselves are still struggling with it as evidenced by the number of pixels used up here attempting to explain it to a sympathetic audience. It wouldn't do to hit them with everything all at once. But don't you think it would be nice to share how we are not just similar to the rest of society, but how we are part of that society? (I know it's a lot to ask, but I think we will have achieved something significant when we have a 6 page story in Readers Digest with a sympathetic tilt toward the crossdresser subject and his family in the piece.)

As for the initial question in the thread, I don't know if we are owed anything after deferring to the GLB groups for such a long time. We stood by while they became active and made signicant progress on the issues that mean the most to them. To put the responsibility on them for forgetting the contribution all those years ago by crossdressers is a potential wedge between us. There has been a lot of water under the bridge since Stonewall. Are they treating us as equal members of the group? Probably not, but have we been acting as equal members? That may be the reason behind the lack of respect and understanding crossdressers get within the GLBT community. Regardless, I wouldn't be surprised to find many willing allies in those groups who would reach back to help if asked.

Would it be appropriate to have a sticky tread of example letters to news agencies, politicians or GLBT groups that we could pick and choose from to use in our own communities? If you have one, post it. I'll start working on mine. It would also be good to gather up the various responses or dialogues that those letters generate. It will only be when we all take ownership of this situation that it will begin to change.

Shelly Preston

05-24-2009, 09:43 AM

Kimberly - I did not see it as an attack

The problem with the silent majority is you never know just how much they are trying to contribute

You can condemn people for doing nothing but we will never know how much or little they are doing

Even if it only makes others think why are the not making comments .e.g. some will attack gays in conversation and in some groups not joining in the attack can be seen as strange

Sometimes even those refusing to follow the lead given by others condemning our community can make a difference however small

Encouraging others is the method we should be using not condemning

battybattybats -I never said you had a problem with those who contribute a little

Jenny Brown

05-24-2009, 09:50 AM

The TG community IS owed.
By some small numbers of Gays and Lesbians, But mostly by the majority of silent hiding crossdressers who have comitted not one cent, not one letter.. nothing at all to the community.

You can't "shame" people into becoming CD/TG activists. That will simply never work.
This seems to be yet another example of complete lack of understanding even within our own "community" (and I use that term loosely). Until we find a way to try and understand and support each other, there's no way to try and gain acceptance within society in general. :straightface:

TSchapes

05-24-2009, 10:10 AM

Perhaps the issue is that many crossdressers especially do not WANT to be included as part of the gay rights movement because they are not gay and because they see a fundamental difference between the 2 things. Frankly, being included as part of the gay movement is counterproductive to fighting the incorrect impression that they are gay.

And Gays do not want to be associated with cross-dressers because it feeds into the stereotype that all Gays are Drag Queens. Both sides have to "get over it already". It is our duty to educate people that there is a difference between sexual orientation and gender identity, and that there is nothing "wrong" with either being Gay or Transgender. On the contrary, I don't see how a separate TG movement including CD's could ever get off the ground. The Gay community has blazed a path and they have been more than willing to help us get up to speed. But if we continue to be homophobic, refuse their help and not build on the momentum they have, then we can wait even longer for any help.

There are straight people who crossdress, gay people who do, and bisexual people who do. Sexual orientation/behavior has almost nothing to do with gender expression issues, and the discussion of the morality of each is different also.

Morality is different between Gay and T? How so?

I understand the inclination to lump "T" issues with gay rights -- on some level it seems to make sense on the surface -- but until crossdressers break away from this destructive association, they are not going to be able to appropriately educate others about what this is all about and gain acceptance for who they are -- not who they are not.

Again, I don't see Gays and Lesbians association as destructive, we either have to have the equality tent open for all or no one. I know, how about only including white TG folk and leaving out the other TG folk of a different color. They have issues that we don't want to be associated with either? OK, spurious argument, because I don't think this would ever happen. But my point is, if we aren't all treated like human beings, we all suffer.

The rub is that many CDers understandably do not have the time, desire, inclination, or ability to be "activists," because of circumstances or some other reason. That has to be ok, and those who preach tolerance and "non-judgment" need to practice more what they preach. Those who chafe against society's discrimination -- if they feel chafed enough -- will do something about it. Those who find it to be a mild irritation and who have things in their lives more important than the fact that they like to dress in women's clothing probably won't. And again, that has to be ok.

Yes, some can't say anything because they are people of authority: pastors, police, congressmen, doctors, lawyers, etc. Some make way too much money like sports and movie stars. Yet I know each of these professions has at least one TG person and it's much more convenient to let the little guy fight, just like at Stonewall. It was the poor Gays, Drag Queens and Transvestites at Stonewall that said, "No more!"

-Tracy

Nicki B

05-24-2009, 10:52 AM

Aren't we preaching to the converted here?

No - I don't think we are, sadly. That's the problem (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107927).

You can't "shame" people into becoming CD/TG activists.

Being honest with yourself is 'activism'?? :strugglin

So often what is said here is driven, consciously or unconsciously, by fear.. :sad:

Yes, some can't say anything because they are people of authority: pastors, police, congressmen, doctors, lawyers, etc. Some make way too much money like sports and movie stars.

Aren't those exactly the people who would have the most impact if they did say something? As Batty says, you don't have to out yourself - just to argue for tolerance and fairness for all and confront discrimination when you meet it..

Lorileah

05-24-2009, 11:04 AM

Perhaps the issue is that many crossdressers especially do not WANT to be included as part of the gay rights movement because they are not gay and because they see a fundamental difference between the 2 things. Frankly, being included as part of the gay movement is counterproductive to fighting the incorrect impression that they are gay.

Ok don't be part of the gay rights movement. That leaves you three choices

1. Shut up and live in the closet and whine because "no one understands" Doesn't seem to be working does it?

2. Start our own rights movement. 2/3 of the people here would rather die than stand up for what they wear so that won't work.

3. Get the majority of society to accept us as we are. We cannot do that when we don't accept us as we are.

There are straight people who crossdress, gay people who do, and bisexual people who do. Sexual orientation/behavior has almost nothing to do with gender expression issues, and the discussion of the morality of each is different also.

Straight and bi crossdressers make up more than 90% of the population here. It has nothing to do with sexual orientation. It has to do with acceptance. Stonewall wasn't about who you wanted to boink. It was about stopping the prejudice. Morality is not the issue.

I understand the inclination to lump "T" issues with gay rights -- on some level it seems to make sense on the surface -- but until crossdressers break away from this destructive association, they are not going to be able to appropriately educate others about what this is all about and gain acceptance for who they are -- not who they are not.

I agree, but most here in this forum don't want to rise up. June happens to be a perfect time because of PRIDE issues. Why? Because you can dress up all or part and be "out" in the community. This may lead to being "out" more often. Soon no one will care what you wear. Like it or not we share a common theme. We are unaccepted by the majority of society. It would be nice if our gay brothers and sisters would stand behind us, or at least beside us.

The rub is that many CDers understandably do not have the time, desire, inclination, or ability to be "activists," because of circumstances or some other reason. That has to be ok, and those who preach tolerance and "non-judgment" need to practice more what they preach. Those who chafe against society's discrimination -- if they feel chafed enough -- will do something about it. Those who find it to be a mild irritation and who have things in their lives more important than the fact that they like to dress in women's clothing probably won't. And again, that has to be ok.

No it does not have to be ok. If you don't work to change your situation, then you can't complain when you get slapped down. Have you read the posts? To paraphrase "no one understands me" but I won't tell my friends or acquaintances. How can you understand something when you don't try and explain it? Tolerance by our group is high here. I don't remember a post where anyone told someone that they were morons or freaks. We can and do support each other. But somewhere in time we have to say enough. I don't want to be hiding anymore. Until then the people who have "more important things to do" can't complain. I don't want to be tolerated, I want to be respected and taken seriously by the world. Margret Sanger had better things to do. Martin Luther King had better things to do. Caesar Chavez had better things to do. The Stonewall group had better things to do. These groups still do not have all the benefits but they are making inroads. We, however as a group, are content to let it be.

Nicki B

05-24-2009, 11:15 AM

I understand the inclination to lump "T" issues with gay rights -- on some level it seems to make sense on the surface -- but until crossdressers break away from this destructive association, they are not going to be able to appropriately educate others about what this is all about and gain acceptance for who they are -- not who they are not.

I agree.

Well, I'm afraid I don't. It's not about sharing sexuality issues - it's about suffering the same discrimination. It's the discrimination that's got to be stopped and we do that most effectively together.

Straight and bi crossdressers make up more than 90% of the population here.

Straight and bi people make up more than 90% of the population...

Jenny Brown

05-24-2009, 11:21 AM

And Gays do not want to be associated with cross-dressers because it feeds into the stereotype that all Gays are Drag Queens. Both sides have to "get over it already". It is our duty to educate people that there is a difference between sexual orientation and gender identity, and that there is nothing "wrong" with either being Gay or Transgender.
So, once a way is found to convince society that there's nothing "wrong" with either being Gay or Transgender, the problem is solved, eh? In who's lifetime do you think this will happen? :doh:

battybattybats

05-24-2009, 12:02 PM

If even a moderate proportion of the silent majority were sufficiently active behind the scenes there would not be the massive disproportion between funding of LGB issues and T with advocacy groups.

Estimates of population of CDs alone appear to be from equal to substantially higher than estimates of Gays and Lesbians (twice as many seems a common measure)! Yet funding of every gay and lesbian issue is vastly higher than for TG. On that measure alone we can see that the closeted and out CD community is doing vastly less than the closeted and out Gay and Lesbian population.

Despite the headstart from Ed Wood (laugh as we might Glen or Glenda was a financial success) and prominant sex-change cases and that the Compton Cafeteria and Stonewall riots had more to do with CDs than Gays far less has been done by the smaller Gay and Lesbian populations than by us. The proof is in the Legislarion, the charities, the 'pink doller' economy. And what headway we have made has largely been by or with major support from the Gays and Lesbians.

If the silent majority was doing enough we wouldn't be having this conversation. Many Gays and Lesbians are still closetted or only out to select people. Many have jobs they need to protect too (you can still be fired for being gay in much of the USA!) and families of their own. And without the 1000+ legal and financial benefits that come from marriage!

We could and should do more.

There are TG kids lives at stake, many will be our own kids and grandkids.

It helps us overcome our own internal issues and that involves our familes long-term happiness too.

But we feel guilty and ashamed of the wrong things, not the suicides we could be preventing, not the murder rate of poor non-ehite Transwomen we could be reducing but wearing panties.

And look at the poor excuses we make.

If people think we're gay its bad.

Why?

If they accept gays and think we're gays the worst thing that happens is we get accepted but single CDs when out have to explain to GGs that they like GGs (and with bisexuality being increasingly accepted in society thats wont take as much work) and wives have to explain the same to people.

You know what? If every single straight CD could be out if they chose, but had to face only that one obstacle of being thought gay, but wouldn't lose their custody of kids or jobs or healthcare or friends then thatd be far better than it is right now. And it wouldnt take long for people to realise that most of the CDs like GGs when most were out and trying to chat up GGs or all the married CDs trying to stay married.

Its an excuse we are using and a super-poor one at that.

Same with the 'its hard to explain'. There isnt a full explanation for being Gay. Most people haven't read about Kin-Selection in Evolution or looked at the FMRI scans of Gay brains in New Scientist (and there is plenty of evidence for the cause of TS that extrapolates to CD anyway and when they do they same tests on CDs most scientists expect to just find similar milder forms of TS).

Most folk just know Gay = man who likes men. Thats all. And in 40 years they have gained massively increased acceptance and protection for themselves and for us too. Most people don't understand it, they just heard it enough that they now accept it.
So all people need to know about us really is CD = person who likes to crossdress. They just need to hear it enough.

We keep putting forward excuses when we can do every single thing gays did. We are guilty and ashamed of the wrong things. We have lives on the line. And all we are putting up is pathetic irrational excuses.

You dont have to be out but if your not involved (SOs included!) in creating change your allowing children and teens to die, murder by negligence. With your own kids and grandkids, nieces and nephews at a higher risk than your nieghbours kids.

We are using the myth that we all have to be out as an excuse to do nothing. We are using the myth that doing something is all marches that dont work or cause harm as an excuse to do nothing. Yet we can be supporters from the closet. we can write letters, vote and we can contribute to TG advocacy and TG charity from the closet. Cause thats exactly what plenty of closeted Gay people do! And those marches no matter the criticisms havent stopped the nassive yearly increases in acceptance of Gays and Lesbians!

Maybe we need to stop lying to ourselves and each other and start facing facts. With the lives of children on the line as well as the chance to increase our own long-term happiness and with those traped in the closet still able to stay there and make change then can there be any valid rational excuse left not to be involved?

TSchapes

05-24-2009, 01:59 PM

So, once a way is found to convince society that there's nothing "wrong" with either being Gay or Transgender, the problem is solved, eh? In who's lifetime do you think this will happen? :doh:

Let Me Get Out My Crystal Ball! Or, maybe one of those "Magic 8 Balls" (Try again later!) :brolleyes:

I cannot give you a specific date. But like a piano, the more you put into it, the more you get out of it!

If we sit back and do nothing, the answer is certainly never. But the more we do, and the more people that do it (like any civil rights cause) the sooner it will happen. It took many years for African-Americans to get where they are today. Are they equal today?, no, are they better than they were, I would say so. Same thing with Gays. Six months after Stonewall two organizations sprung up and it's been 40 years now. If we take the Gay example as a guideline, maybe within my son's generation it will happen.

But, you have to do something! And like Batty says, you don't have to out yourself to support the cause. I've outed myself at work through the LGBT organization at work. If I were to be laid off tomorrow, that will be on my record and I would have to find another company that appreciates diversity as much as the one I work for now. So, in theory, I've taken a hit. But I've also been able to educate people at work about cross-dressers, which I believe outweighs the limitations I've put on myself.

Again, do something and it will happen eventually, do nothing, and I guarantee that nothing will happen.

Oh, and don't think that I'm so naive as to believe that we will be able to convince everybody. There will always be people filled with hate. And, people that know that the only way for them to feel good about themselves is to put others down. I can only feel sorry for them.

-Tracy

Jenny Brown

05-24-2009, 02:51 PM

Let Me Get Out My Crystal Ball! Or, maybe one of those "Magic 8 Balls" (Try again later!) :brolleyes:
I cannot give you a specific date. But like a piano, the more you put into it, the more you get out of it!If we sit back and do nothing, the answer is certainly never. But the more we do, and the more people that do it (like any civil rights cause) the sooner it will happen. It took many years for African-Americans to get where they are today. Are they equal today?, no, are they better than they were, I would say so. Same thing with Gays. Six months after Stonewall two organizations sprung up and it's been 40 years now. If we take the Gay example as a guideline, maybe within my son's generation it will happen. But, you have to do something! And like Batty says, you don't have to out yourself to support the cause. I've outed myself at work through the LGBT organization at work. If I were to be laid off tomorrow, that will be on my record and I would have to find another company that appreciates diversity as much as the one I work for now. So, in theory, I've taken a hit. But I've also been able to educate people at work about cross-dressers, which I believe outweighs the limitations I've put on myself.
Again, do something and it will happen eventually, do nothing, and I guarantee that nothing will happen.
Oh, and don't think that I'm so naive as to believe that we will be able to convince everybody. There will always be people filled with hate. And, people that know that the only way for them to feel good about themselves is to put others down. I can only feel sorry for them.

No specific date? Wow, that really sucks! :eek:
Everything you've said here makes sense. But what are the odds of every CD/TG getting involved and working toward "change"? I'm not trying to be negative here, just trying to be honest. I'd say "slim to none".
Too many people too deep in the closet for many reasons. Too much guilt. Too much shame. :straightface:

TSchapes

05-24-2009, 03:29 PM

No specific date? Wow, that really sucks! :eek:
Everything you've said here makes sense. But what are the odds of every CD/TG getting involved and working toward "change"? I'm not trying to be negative here, just trying to be honest. I'd say "slim to none".
Too many people too deep in the closet for many reasons. Too much guilt. Too much shame. :straightface:

You don't have to get "everybody" involved, though the more the better. What can just one person do? Ask Rosa Parks. It was her one time standing up for what was right at the right time, that the whole civil rights movement took off. I tend to be more optimistic, it is too easy to be pessimistic and become a self-fulling prophet of doom.

So what steps can we take Tracy?

Minimally, do not become a basher of the LGBT community to hide your own situation. I would rather you be quiet, than to join in and add to their hate.
Start with yourself, love the fact that you are a CD
Accept the fact that you are a CD and it is a blessing not a curse
Tell those people closest to you, especially your SO, they deserve to know
Join organizations or donate money to those organizations that are trying to make a differnece
Once you have the self-confidence, and the ability to educate, come out and let people know this part of you that you have been hiding for so long, trust me it's liberating all by itself!