How to tell if local laws against crossdressing?

[dack]

So it doesn't sound like there are any states that have laws against crossdressing.

I get the impression that some small towns still might have them and actually enforce them.

What's the easiest way to find out if a town has such laws? Do you have to contact the police department and/or city office?

It wouldn't be fun to be stopped by a police officer while dressed and discover it's illegal.

[trannie T]

There maybe a few laws still on the books prohibiting crossdressing but none has been enforced for many years. If you are concerned call your local police department or if you are in a city call an LBGT organization or the ACLU.

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Hi Dack-

Public laws are by definition public. You can simply contact your local police department or sheriff's office or county DA or whomever and ask. I suppose there is the remote possibility that some such antiquated state law or city ordinance could still be on the books but I can't really imagine a law enforcement officer citing someone for it, though I suppose it wouldn't be entirely outside the realm of possibility. Anyway, the simplest way to get your question answered is just to ask.

BTW, if the answer to your question turns out to be that there is such a law, please let me know so I can avoid where you live.

Hugs...Joni Marie

[Marissa]

Very interesting question Dack, but would agree with T that most may not be enforced.

Funny how small towns carry laws that no one enforces but can still be used.

Maybe there really is a law against wearing white after labor day.... who knows????????? :D

sorry, not trying to make light of a question you take serious.. i would do the research of the area you plan to visit or pass through..

[Veronica75]

If I found I lived in a locality with such a law, I'd go through the local odinances with a fine tooth comb, find every other sill restriction, then start a campaign to abolish all of them (to avoid suspiciously singling out the one cd law).

Frankly it's a dumb law to have on the books. If some hotshot cop tried to enforce it, perhaps to embarass the "perp," the town could find itself at the wrong end of a very big-- and expensive-- lawsuit. The ACLU would probably put some lawyers on it for free. I doubt most local governments have counsel that is quite so cheap.

[linnea]

Twenty years ago, I contacted the city police departments of several small towns in Washington. I was just trying to be sure that there were not laws in those places against crossdressing. None had such laws I was glad to find out.
I'm not saying that they don't exist anywhere, but I do know that I've been stopped by the Washington State Patrol a couple of times when I was dressed. I gave the officer in each case my male driver's license. The officer did his checking, etc., and since the stops were for equipment problems (headlight, then a tail-light), he gave me back my license and said, "Drive carefully, and get that light fixed."
That was it.
But that was the Washington State Patrol. There are small logging towns in Washington where I wouldn't feel so confident that a stop would end so easily. If I were going to one of those (for whatever reason, I don't know), I would check ahead of time.
I would also check with the state Attorney General's office about state-wide practices.

[sterling12]

If anyone bothered to check, most of those old laws have a proviso. They make it illegal to crossdress "in the commission of a crime."

It's conceivable that they could apply such an ordinance, if they also had a law about "only gals in the female bathroom." But if you used that bathroom, if you got caught or arrested for it; it would be a very rare thing for a DA to take a case like that to Court. Would be an incredible waste of The Taxpayer's Money.

By all means go ahead and check up on your local laws, but I wouldn't get myself in a lather about it. The odds are really good that even if they have such laws, they haven't been enforced for years. Why would they choose to make an example out of you?

Peace and Love, Joanie

[crossdrezzer1]

depends on the town,,,, I hear its not illegal to dress as a women as long as you dont have panties on,,if you wear male undies you not breaking the law,,,how stupid is that,, if you show them then thats a law breaker show whats the point,,, a small town here still has a law from 1700's saying illegal to do outdoor activitys like bike ride,jog on sunday,,,they dont enforce it at all but its still in the book just in case the cop wants you for a personal reason,,, something like that could be problematice,,they leave laws from the old days in so the cops have power over a law abiding citizen...

[Karren H]

Stop by the State Police station enfemme.. If they don't arrest you then your good to go! Lol

[PretzelGirl]

Stop by the State Police station enfemme.. If they don't arrest you then your good to go! Lol

Unless they are the fashion police. Then someone might deserve it! :heehee:

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Stacy can frisk me any time. I'll pass on getting cuffed by Clinton, though, he's so bitchy sometimes.

Hugs...Joni Marie


Unless they are the fashion police. Then someone might deserve it! :heehee:

[joann07]

Here's my take on this.
If there was a federal or state law against crossdressing, then the police would have to arrest everyone, male and female, who dresses in clothing of the opposite sex no matter if its full or partial.
Of course, you have the men who dress in women's clothes, but as many of you know women wear men's clothing for work, comfort, and pleasure. These would include sports jerseys (i.e. football, basketball, Hockey, Baseball, etc, etc.), suits and tuxes, shirts, pants, construction uniforms, etc, etc, etc.
If this law exists, it would probably contain hundreds of pages listing each individual item of clothing that is considered male specific and female specific, such as jewelry, shoes, hats, clothing, etc, etc, etc.

To me, a law like that could never be enforced because, as I said before, it would be impossible to arrest everyone who cross dress in one another's item of clothing because everyone does it.

I consider crossdressing an unofficial law because it's society, in general, who dictates it.


Hugs!

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Ya know, if there really are any such laws or ordinances on the books somewhere, I would really be interested in hearing about them. Not just some sort of hearsay, like "I heard..." or "a friend of my cousin's brother-in-law's great uncle was arrested for crossdressing last year and spent 30 days in jail...".

My opinion is that no officer/deputy/constable/what-have-you would bother writing a citation for something so petty (if it is a crime somewhere it could only be a low level misdemeanor, not an arrestable offense), if he did write it no DA would prosecute and if somehow or other it did wind up in front of a magistrate or judge he would toss it out of court. Even small town cops or county deputies have way more to do these days than pursue such minor infractions, as do the courts. Just my two cents.

Hugs...Joni Marie

[linnea]

You are absolutely right on, Joann.

[Nicole Erin]

Don't go asking the police dept about this, they will find some other reason to act like asses
Don't ever ask them if anything is illegal. Talk to ACLU or someone

[kellycan27]

Don't go asking the police dept about this, they will find some other reason to act like asses
Don't ever ask them if anything is illegal. Talk to ACLU or someone

Gawd.. Where do you live? This is an innocent question, The police have more important things to do than hassle crossdressers.

[kymmieLorain]

Well I think any law about crossdressing may be against the constitution isn't it say we have the right to persute of happiness. LOL

Kymmie

[Carly D.]

I don't think there are any laws against cross dressing but there is likely the same prejudice against anyone who displays a different lifestyle.. gays are getting more accepted all the time.. when is our turn???

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Second that, Kelly. Thank you. Sheesh.

As I mentioned in my first post, public laws are public information. If for some reason you cannot bring yourself to ask a simple, anonymous question via a phone call to your local police, sheriff or DA, you can go online and find the answer, though it may take going through a little research and some of your time. For instance, having just moved from Oregon and being somewhat familiar with some laws of the state, I typed in Oregon Revised Statutes, got a Wiki link, found the statutes regarding public indecency and, as I already knew, no statutes regarding public (or private, for that matter) crossdressing. Anyone can do the same in whatever state they happen to live. The same goes for counties and municipalities, just call and ask or go online and do a little research. There are no laws that you can be held accountable for in a court of law that are not public knowledge.

Just for fun (I am easily amused), since I recently moved to Washington, I cruised their statutes. Having no idea of how they're laid out or titled, it still took me less then 3 minutes to find the statutes regarding public indecency and public nuisances. Nothing about crossdressing being illegal in the state of Washington.

Just for the record, this is not to say that you can't run afoul of some individual officer who is prejudiced against TG people and will try to find some way to hassle you. There are officers in every jurisdiction, hopefully a minority, who are ignorant, badge heavy, bigoted a-holes. A sad fact of life, unfortunately.

Hugs...Joni Marie




Gawd.. Where do you live? This is an innocent question, The police have more important things to do than hassle crossdressers.

[cheryl anne michaels]

really dont think there re any laws against crossdressing. i have been stopped by police in 2 differnet chicago suburbs. both officers were professional. although the female officer did have me get out of the car so she could check out my outfit. hehe. police see it all, and a crossdresser wont even phase them.

[Sarah Doepner]

There doesn't need to be a law against crossdressing for Law Enforcement to make your day a real challenge. There are lots of very vague laws concerning Public Indecency, Public Disorder, Obstructing Justice, False Information to Police, as well as the need to determine if you are any kind of a threat to commit a crime. Officers have a lot of discression if they want to get involved in your life and you are in a public place.

Now, most of them are too busy and/or just don't care enough to go out of their way to do any of that, but it doesn't mean they can't. My suggestion is to behave yourself, don't drink and drive and if you become the subject of an officers attention, cooperate as best you can. Have your id ready to hand over, even if you don't like the picture. The statue books are very thick and they can be very creative in the application of some of those laws. Even if it is thrown out at a later date, your world has become miserable when all you wanted was to enjoy a little time out.

[SweetCaroline]

If public crossdressing were against the law where I come from, I'd be serving three consecutive life sentences with no chance of parole.

[Nicki B]

This is an innocent question

Actually I think it reinforces an unnecessary climate of fear - it feels more like scaremongering, to me.. :sad:

[Kiyana]

Many local city hall websites have a listing of most of the local laws. that doesn't count county and other municipal laws though

[sandra-leigh]

It's conceivable that they could apply such an ordinance, if they also had a law about "only gals in the female bathroom." But if you used that bathroom, if you got caught or arrested for it; it would be a very rare thing for a DA to take a case like that to Court. Would be an incredible waste of The Taxpayer's Money.

I ran a previous thread in which I tried to get people to contribute [U]specific[/U} laws about cross-dressing. If I recall correctly, no-one had any (or was interested enough to bother.) I did specifically disprove one supposed one that you can find hanging around the net in the "silly laws" lists. Someone did point to a specific US state in which it is apparently illegal to use the washroom opposite the marker on your driver's license, and yet (at least in part of the state) also illegal to use the washroom opposite of the way you are presenting, but there were no citations provided there.

I did find and cite a specific ordinance in a specific city that is still on the books and has to do with the use of washrooms at dance halls. It was, however, in a state that offered a number of state-wide protections, leaving it quite questionable as to whether the ordinance was enforceable.

When I see a situation like that, what I see is an opportunity for the city police to harass and even charge cross-dressers, possibly even jailing them: if the state attorney that your lawyer reaches then tells the city police "You have to withdraw that charge, the ordinance violates state law", then the police then release you, mouth an apology, and you are pretty helpless to do anything about the indignity unless you are upset enough about it that you have a lawyer in the area run "discovery" against the police training and operations manual to prove that the state had specifically made it clear that the ordinance was in conflict and needed to be taken off of the books.

Oh yes, I also pointed out at least one specific "anti-saggy-pants" law that discussion I read said was so vaguely worded as to make the law applicable to cross-dressing as well (I seem to recall it used that "appropriate to the sex" phrase rather than being gender-neutral in describing exactly what had to covered and what didn't have to be. Wouldn't want to stop the pretty young gals from wearing bikini bottoms, after-all....

[Veronica75]

There doesn't need to be a law against crossdressing for Law Enforcement to make your day a real challenge. There are lots of very vague laws concerning Public Indecency, Public Disorder, Obstructing Justice, False Information to Police, as well as the need to determine if you are any kind of a threat to commit a crime. Officers have a lot of discression if they want to get involved in your life and you are in a public place.

Sad but true. I have heard a local cop tell me, to my face, that if they want to they could take anyone into custody, anytime, there's always something they kind find as grounds. It wasn't said as bragging or to incite fear, just as a matter of fact, which made it all the more chilling.

[Sally2005]

I doubt it, but there might be laws against visibly stripping down or changing in your car or applying makeup while driving.

[dack]

Not sure if I'd want to call up the police station. Contacting the ACLU or other organization is a good suggestion.
I did run web searches against my city website (and the adjacent city's website) -- I didn't find anything posted about crossdressing. Of course, it might be enveloped in a broader law such as causing public disorder, etc.


Of course, you have the men who dress in women's clothes, but as many of you know women wear men's clothing for work, comfort, and pleasure. These would include sports jerseys (i.e. football, basketball, Hockey, Baseball, etc, etc.), suits and tuxes, shirts, pants, construction uniforms, etc, etc, etc.
Yes...it seems like there's a double standard in society. A woman can dress completely like a man, and little is noticed. If a man wear's a dress, it really attracts attention.


Ya know, if there really are any such laws or ordinances on the books somewhere, I would really be interested in hearing about them.
I ran across an article about a man in India being arrested for crossdressing, with an actual law forbidding it. Of course, that's in India, and not in Europe / the United States. There are probably several countries with laws against crossdressing.

[Suzy Harrison]

If there was such a law, the jails would be full of women wearing trousers/pants

[Sarah Doepner]

In Utah the Legislature last year refused to allow a bill pass that included protection from eviction or from being fired from a job because a person is transgendered. Their story is "It's a slippery slope to where we are granting protected status to everyone when the laws are there already." However in this situation they just targeted transgendered people for discrimination without the protection or reasonable recourse. Can I call them idiots here or is that wrong?

So, even if there are no laws against crossdressing, you do it at your own peril.

[trannie T]

[QUOTE .However in this situation they just targeted transgendered people for discrimination without the protection or reasonable recourse. Can I call them idiots here or is that wrong?

So, even if there are no laws against crossdressing, you do it at your own peril.[/QUOTE]

It is wrong to call them idiots. To do so is an insult to all the decent idiots in the world.

[Empress Lainie]

The end of the first week after my transition to 24/7 female I got stopped for speeding in my pretty outfit and wig.


My driver's license still said male and had my old male name on it. He made no comment whatsoever and treated me as he would anyone else. If he called me sir, I certainly couldn't object due to my ID. But I don't remember how he addressed me or if he used any pronoun.

This is Las Vegas. The police are fairly trans friendly, but one would not use ma'am for my girlfriend and said he was only going by the ID which was still M.

[BillieJoe]

I well remember the days when I would have to hide whenever I saw a patrol car coming down the street. Then most of those laws were deleted from the books. I well remember a few times in the early seventies reading in the paper where someone was arrested for 'impersonating a woman'. Then things seemed to change and we now have a lot more freedom to express ourselves. I pray that its going to get even better yet in my lifetime.

[joann07]

Not sure if I'd want to call up the police station. Contacting the ACLU or other organization is a good suggestion.
I did run web searches against my city website (and the adjacent city's website) -- I didn't find anything posted about crossdressing. Of course, it might be enveloped in a broader law such as causing public disorder, etc.



Of course, you have the men who dress in women's clothes, but as many of you know women wear men's clothing for work, comfort, and pleasure. These would include sports jerseys (i.e. football, basketball, Hockey, Baseball, etc, etc.), suits and tuxes, shirts, pants, construction uniforms, etc, etc, etc.



Yes...it seems like there's a double standard in society. A woman can dress completely like a man, and little is noticed. If a man wear's a dress, it really attracts attention.



Oh definitely.
Women seem to get away with a lot of things nowadays when it comes to wearing clothes, but for men it's like a one way street.
You can't go the other way because society says so.

Hugs!

[marla01]

I'm surprised everyone missed this one...

http://media.www.thenichollsworth.com/media/storage/paper262/news/2007/08/23/News/New-Law.Bans.Saggy.Pants.Crossdressing-2939242.shtml

Note, for history buffs, the cops who were harassing drag queens that started the Stonewall Riots were using anti-crossdressing laws as justification.

Marla

[Melinda G]

A lot depends on what you are doing, and where. It also may depend on how you are dressed. Hanging out in parks is not a good idea, because of familys and children in the area. Dressing like a hooker, and hanging out is not a good idea. Wearing a dress and heels, and no wig or makeup is not a good idea. Disorderly conduct can be whatever a cop says it is. A little common sense goes a long way.

[julie w]

the only time you may get trouble is if commit a crime then you may be
charged with wearing a disguise , so dont drink and drive

[Veronica75]

I'm surprised everyone missed this one...

http://media.www.thenichollsworth.com/media/storage/paper262/news/2007/08/23/News/New-Law.Bans.Saggy.Pants.Crossdressing-2939242.shtml

Note, for history buffs, the cops who were harassing drag queens that started the Stonewall Riots were using anti-crossdressing laws as justification.

Marla

"not becoming to his or her sex." ?!?

That is so vague and all-encompassing as to be completely useless. One could argue that a loose t-shirt, frumpy work pants, and a gardening smock are "not becoming" to the female sex, or that a 1970's style electric blue polyester leisure suit is "not becoming" to the male sex (and in the second case, you might be right).

I'm no lawyer, but it sounds pretty unconstitutional to me, and I'm sure all it would take would be one courageous test-case to knock the thing down.

And, for the record, I think cocktail dresses and high heels are VERY becoming to the male sex!

[JulieC]

"not becoming to his or her sex." ?!?

That is so vague and all-encompassing as to be completely useless. One could argue that a loose t-shirt, frumpy work pants, and a gardening smock are "not becoming" to the female sex, or that a 1970's style electric blue polyester leisure suit is "not becoming" to the male sex (and in the second case, you might be right).

I'm no lawyer, but it sounds pretty unconstitutional to me, and I'm sure all it would take would be one courageous test-case to knock the thing down.

And, for the record, I think cocktail dresses and high heels are VERY becoming to the male sex!

Amen! I've half a mind to go down there dressed en femme, but only partially and sit in a park until arrested.

Dress unbecoming to his or her sex? *drool* I'd love to try that in court!

[sandra-leigh]

I'm surprised everyone missed this one...


Already mentioned specifically in my earlier post in this thread, in which I summarized the results of an earlier thread I ran on this general topic in which I chased down some rumours and specific laws.

[Trip_rockcity]

Hetic.. i best think twice b4 i pop down the shops.. great.. one more thing to worry about.. (^^,)

[sandra-leigh]

Wearing a dress and heels, and no wig or makeup is not a good idea. Disorderly conduct can be whatever a cop says it is.

With respect: I consider the above to be "scaremongering". I also consider saying "Tell absolutely no one!" (a paraphrase of another recent posting of yours) to be "scaremongering". I appreciate that perhaps at some time some bad things might have happened to you, but your posts tend to adopt these position as if they were truisms, that if one does not pass perfectly that one should hide deeply in the closet.

If it is true that "Disorderly conduct can be whatever a cop says it is", then the lesson that we should learn from that is not that we should hide: the lesson we should learn from that is that we should employ our democratic rights (those of us who live in places that supposedly have rights) and fight to curtail the power of the police to make arbitrary "disorderly conduct" decisions. And if we aren't willing to do that, then the preventive lesson to be learned is not cross-dressing specific the preventive lesson is that since ANYTHING could be "disorderly conduct", that we aren't willing to struggle for our freedoms, that we should, everyone one of us, "pure male" or whatever our gender indication, stay home inside, doors locked and shades drawn and stereo barely audible at best -- because, after all, a cop might decide that the way we hold the watering can to sprinkle our flowers is "disorderly conduct". When anything might be arbitrarily deemed disorderly conduct and we aren't willing to push back against that, then what you've done is internalized the idea that everything is "disorderly conduct" and they just haven't gotten around to tossing you in jail for the way that everything you do is messed up.


If I recall correctly, I did get stopped once by a passing patrol car when I was walking down a side street in late dusk near where I live. I was new to the game, wearing an unfashionable dress, my lipstick was smeared, and I didn't have the hang of those shoes yet. My memory (not the greatest) is that one of the people on the street had reported me -- not for being a cross-dresser (or at least the police didn't mention anything about that), but because I was a stranger dressed a little more shabbily than would be typical for the neighbourhood, and the person had been concerned that I might be "casing" the neighbourhood. If there was any trans-phobia on the part of the neighbour, the police did not hint of it in any way: they were polite to me, explained clearly why they had stopped me, and upon hearing my explanation that No, I lived just a few streets over and was taking advantage of the nice weather to go for a walk, were completely satisfied. Before they left, they cautioned me to be a bit more careful walking alone at night on those streets, as the street lighting is weaker in the middle of the block and they had heard of random prowlers sometimes in the area, strangers from out of the area who come to our (better-off) neighbourhood and take advantage of "targets of opportunity" to mug people in the darker stretches.

In the entire encounter, if there was the slightest hint on the part of the police about my cross-dressing being unusual, it was (at most) in the subtle reminder that as a mid-sized woman in heels, that the muggers would probably perceive me as more vulnerable than the muggers would tend to perceive a guy with a typical guy swagger. No condemnation or repulsion at all: at most a gentle guideance on smart safety for when I was out as a female.


Now, if I were putting on "**** clothes" and going to hang around the area the prostitutes hang out, or putting on short party-dresses and no jacket and standing around on downtown street corners with a little clutch purse, not going anywhere, then Yes, of course I wouldn't be surprised if the police got the idea that I was there as a prostitute and stopped by to say something. But I have walked right by policemen (and women) while "gender-bending", obvious femme clothes but no wig and probably no makeup: if they glance at me at all (not uncommon, because police do routinely practice "situational awareness" and glance at people they pass to be sure there is no obvious threat) then they don't bother to look at me, break stride, or otherwise treat me any different from anyone else who is obviously just "going about their business". My wearing a skirt or a dress or pretty top or carrying a purse isn't a threat to anyone, and I'm not "moving strangely" -- if anything, they'd probably assess that I am less of a problem than the average person. Attitude: I act like I belong there, that my clothes are perfectly normal clothes, and, ergo, I do belong there. Except it isn't an "act" in the sense of a pretense: I'm comfortable being who I am, dressed as I am, and I just proceed normally, because it is normal for me.

[denise413]

It is unconstitutional to have a law against cross-dressing as it violates your rights to free speech which includes freedom of expression. Unless the town wants to deal with a lawsuit backed by the ACLU, it would be unwise for any officer to press charges should a town ordinance exist. If a cop gives you a hard time about why you are dressed, get their name and badge number and file a complaint with the agency.

[featherelizabeth]

Apparently still a law on the books in Pueblo, Colo. that requires CD's to "Wear men's underwear underneath their gear..." LOL!

[Melinda G]

With respect: I consider the above to be "scaremongering". I also consider saying "Tell absolutely no one!" (a paraphrase of another recent posting of yours) to be "scaremongering". I appreciate that perhaps at some time some bad things might have happened to you, but your posts tend to adopt these position as if they were truisms, that if one does not pass perfectly that one should hide deeply in the closet.

If it is true that "Disorderly conduct can be whatever a cop says it is", then the lesson that we should learn from that is not that we should hide: the lesson we should learn from that is that we should employ our democratic rights (those of us who live in places that supposedly have rights) and fight to curtail the power of the police to make arbitrary "disorderly conduct" decisions. And if we aren't willing to do that, then the preventive lesson to be learned is not cross-dressing specific the preventive lesson is that since ANYTHING could be "disorderly conduct", that we aren't willing to struggle for our freedoms, that we should, everyone one of us, "pure male" or whatever our gender indication, stay home inside, doors locked and shades drawn and stereo barely audible at best -- because, after all, a cop might decide that the way we hold the watering can to sprinkle our flowers is "disorderly conduct". When anything might be arbitrarily deemed disorderly conduct and we aren't willing to push back against that, then what you've done is internalized the idea that everything is "disorderly conduct" and they just haven't gotten around to tossing you in jail for the way that everything you do is messed up.


First of all, nothing bad has ever happened to me[knock on wood], because I've always used common sense.

Second, you go and fight the good fight, and get back to me on how it works out for you, and how much it costs in lawyer fees. If you go looking for trouble, you can usually find it.

My point was that a guy in heels and a dress, and no makeup or wig, is more likely to attract unwanted attention, than the same guy in heels, dress, makeup and a wig, who is at least making an effort to pass. I really feel that if someone is going to dress and go outside, they should at least make an effort to pass, and not simply try to test the limits.

[Maxi]

Do a search on crossdressing law. There are many results both to protect, and, procecute crossdressers.

[catriona36]

If there was such a law, the jails would be full of women wearing trousers/pants




Suzy i could just see the femanists having a ball with that lol

I did, many years ago, get mail (snail mail) from a friend in BC Canada.. She stated that ( my memory aint the best but will try) "a friend of hers, dressed up as a woman with **** doing his makeup. said he was a good looking chick etc. walked into the local police station with a bunch of flowers and gave it to them to "pretty" up the place.."

She said the station was full of cops and all was fine till he started to leave. Thats when he was proposisioned by one cop. said he identified himself to the cop as a man. and the cops said "yeah i know"

he didnt get in any trouble but he did have to talk himself out of a date for that night lol

now i know the words are not exactly as she said as it was a long time ago.. but you get the drift :)

i remember cos she got busted for drunk in public, or what ever its called and she saw the flowers about 3 days later still there lol

I would soooooooooooooooo never do that.. not out here anyway, too many places to hide my corpse lol
:heehee:

[dack]

I'm surprised everyone missed this one...

http://media.www.thenichollsworth.co...-2939242.shtml

Note, for history buffs, the cops who were harassing drag queens that started the Stonewall Riots were using anti-crossdressing laws as justification.

Marla

Hmm...for the article linked to above - For the crossdressing portion of the law - I wonder if they plan on convicting any women for dressing like men.


A lot depends on what you are doing, and where. It also may depend on how you are dressed. Hanging out in parks is not a good idea, because of familys and children in the area. Dressing like a hooker, and hanging out is not a good idea. Wearing a dress and heels, and no wig or makeup is not a good idea. Disorderly conduct can be whatever a cop says it is. A little common sense goes a long way.

To a reasonable extent this sounds logical to me. No, in theory, we shouldn't have to be afraid, but if you crossdress in a time, place, and manner that is likely to get people stirred up, you're probably going to get accused of some other crime (disorderly conduct, etc).
I live in the conservative south - it would seem logical that I could get complaints / get stopped if I were in a park while dressed.
Likewise overdressing and lingering or walking about areas you don't live could arouse suspicion.

I'd be curious though on how likely you are to be cited for wearing a dress/pantyhose/heels without a wig/makeup to make it more believeable.

Another question - While crossdressed, how would you know what stores you can visit without trouble? I understand busineses have a reasonable amount of freedom in asking people to leave / banning them.

[Skirtboy]

In Utah the Legislature last year refused to allow a bill pass that included protection from eviction or from being fired from a job because a person is transgendered. Their story is "It's a slippery slope to where we are granting protected status to everyone when the laws are there already." However in this situation they just targeted transgendered people for discrimination without the protection or reasonable recourse. Can I call them idiots here or is that wrong?

So, even if there are no laws against crossdressing, you do it at your own peril.

They explicitly stated that the law was unneccssary because the group in question was already proteced by existing law and did not require seperate protection.

[kynw08]

"not becoming to his or her sex." ?!?

That is so vague and all-encompassing as to be completely useless. One could argue that a loose t-shirt, frumpy work pants, and a gardening smock are "not becoming" to the female sex, or that a 1970's style electric blue polyester leisure suit is "not becoming" to the male sex (and in the second case, you might be right).

I'm no lawyer, but it sounds pretty unconstitutional to me, and I'm sure all it would take would be one courageous test-case to knock the thing down.

And, for the record, I think cocktail dresses and high heels are VERY becoming to the male sex!

It's Louisiana government. I live ten minutes across the boarder, and have family all over Louisiana. There is no more inept, crooked, and down right useless government than Louisiana's. Mayor Wonka(I don't remember what his name is......the NOLA mayor that talked about the chocolate city(thus mayor Wonka)) was probably as competent as any of them. You would have to see it to believe what Louisiana will pull. Great food, fun culture, but the inmates are running the asylum...

Like his politics or not(which I'm not a huge fan of but...), Bobby Jindal is probably the least corrupt person to hold a parish level or higher office in 50 years.

[BarbiB]

It is a matter of sensibilities and venue. My (very nonpassable) TGing friend dresses in a nebulously sissified fashion that favors satiny silk fabrics, earrings, very light makeup and her own modest breasts. No male clothes, but nothing real femmey either. And has the run of a medium sized community nearby. The local police and townies know her, snigger and smirk whenever they see her.... but leave her be. Contrast that against going around in classic fetish drag with tall heels in a lame dress with gartertops, garish makeup etc. Drawing attention, alarming children, causing dogs to bark and upsetting JQ Public who calls the authorities.... Now, that same garish CD can go and do whatever on the Sunset Strip and go virtually unnoticed. Good and decent cops know ways to hassle whoever they want legally. Fringe cops will write their own rules anywhere anytime, legal or not. As the Chinese say: "The nail that sticks up, will be hammered down"... It's all a matter of how much abuse you are willing to attract and accept while pursuing your liberties. Just my :2c:..... I KNOW there are exceptions and alternatives and over generalizations in all the above.... Like I said, it was :2c: worth.

[MsJanessa]

I've been a lawyer for more decades than I'm going to admit here and I've never heard of any current laws against crossdressing. There may be some old ones in isolated places that are not enforced, but none that I'm personally familiar with. In Maine there is even a law protecting us against discrimination(that's right CDs specifically) so around here I'm not worried about it. Most cops are way too busy enforcing real laws to bother with us anyway unless of course we are commiting some other offense. The most common ones among CDs are drunk driving, disorderly conduct(usually while drunk) and prostitution. My advice to those who don't want to have unpleasent encounters with the police when dressed is to stay away from the bottle when dressed. And if you do imbibe, don't drink too much and don't drive.

[sandra-leigh]

Second, you go and fight the good fight, and get back to me on how it works out for you, and how much it costs in lawyer fees. If you go looking for trouble, you can usually find it.

My point was that a guy in heels and a dress, and no makeup or wig, is more likely to attract unwanted attention, than the same guy in heels, dress, makeup and a wig, who is at least making an effort to pass.


I have already "fought the good fight", several times; the only thing it cost me was the courage to try. You can read about my experiences in some of my threads. For example, I got laughed at once by some young people as I walked by them on the sidewalk of a shopping mall in heels that turned out to be metal tipped on the bottom and so were loudly clacking on the concrete. Inside the mall, I was treated completely respectfully by the adults.


I really feel that if someone is going to dress and go outside, they should at least make an effort to pass, and not simply try to test the limits.

Well, sure, if you ego is fragile enough that it can't stand up to a laugh from some ignorant 20 year olds, or a stare from a woman who had a permanent scowl on her face before she even saw you, then by all means, hide inside or spend hours prepping yourself to be as perfect an imitation female as you can. I, though, am not an imitation female: I am transgendered, and I wear clothes clothes appropriate for a transgendered person.

Am I likely to be given problems by the local police? Not if I am "decent" (genitals covered) and am just going about my business, How do I know this? Because our club invited the police in to talk us about the legal situation, and the police made it clear that what we were doing was completely legal, and that there were specific police diversity policy training about cross-dressing; and they gave us a number to call if the police were not respectful to us. I have passed by the police while I am visibly "gender-bending" many times: they glance at me for no longer than they glance at anyone else ("situational awareness") and keep right on going.

Also, the police know that they have too much to lose if they harass a cross-dresser (even one who is making no attempt to "pass") who has a look of self-confidence: too much chance that the cross-dresser is known to our social club, and our social club has a very good reputation in the city. Recall that the Stonewall Riots were not triggered by the police coming in looking to harass the gays: the Stonewall Riots were triggered by the police coming in looking to harass the cross-dressers and the (much larger) gay community protected the cross-dressers. Any cop in the city with his or her ear to what is going on in the "alternative communities" would know that the organized GLBT community holds our club in high esteem, and that any notable harassment of cross-dressers would be likely to have multiple alternative communities protesting on our behalf. I don't mean that we are "above the law", just that the police are not about to harass us for cross-dressing.

(How well respected are we in the GLBT community? Well enough that the annual Pride parade organizers specifically ask us to be on the lead float.)


This city isn't perfect: the aboriginal people are harassed (or worse) by the police entirely disproportionately. The city has the largest urban population of aboriginal peoples in Canada, and most of the mayors are effectively elected by the white conservative business people (the press labels the rest as "fringe" candidates and somehow they don't get invited to the candidate debates nor receive more than a paragraph of press about their ideas.) The result has been a succession of mayors largely clueless about how to humanely deal with the substantial difficulties of the aboriginal communities, but whom are meanwhile pressured to "clean up" the city so that customers aren't driven away. "Clean up" is, you may recognize, often a code word for "We don't consider these people to be fully human, so don't take the time to come up with -real- solutions, just apply some tasers and load up the paddy wagons and get them out of our sight!"

Virtually any visible aboriginal person in this city gets harassed and discriminated against more often just for being aboriginal, than I ever get for visibly pushing gender boundaries. Indeed, I rarely get trouble from anyone (and certainly none that I can't just smile and walk away from) -- what I get instead is a surprising number of smiles and people talking to me and pleased that I am there and welcomed back. I have taken risks that you clearly would never consider taking, and instead of being shunned for it, I am largely treated equally or even socially rewarded. Trail-blazing is risky, yes, but at least in Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, Toronto, and Hamilton (some of the largest Canadian cities), my experiences have been quite positive,

And if your answer to that is that you aren't talking about Canada, that Canada is somehow inexplicably different, then your warnings ought to be qualified to be confined only to those areas that you have personal experience (or trusted testimony about), rather than scare-mongering that cross-dressers world-wide need to be near-perfect before they dare to go out. If you have experience or evidence about (say) Pictoria or Wawa, then out with it -- but as long as you continue to make blanket statements about how scared we all ought to be, how we should "Tell absolutely no-one!", then I intend to challenge you on your absolutism.

I tell new people more days than not; the typical response I get is, "Let's see what we can find for you", "Would you like me to start a fitting room for you?" or "I'm sorry, we've had a number of requests and we've tried a number of times, but our head office refuses to ship anything above a size 10 shoe into Canada -- but this pair of size 10's is bigger than usual, we've had number of people who normally take an 11 fit into this: would you like to try it on?"

[PhillyGuy2Girl]

Most cops could care less who crossdresses. Believe me, Philly cops have a helk of alot more things to be concerned about than who crossdresses.


If I would ever get pulled over while dressed femme, I would be respectful,show my license,registration and insurance card and if I get a speeding ticket,fine,I'll just deal with later.

If he would say anything about me dressed femme, I would just say in a nice way, "I'm in the process of transitioning,thank you and have a nice day"

If you are respectful,you should be ok.



Felicity :)

[catriona36]

Oh one point i will bring up in regards to this is.....
LEGALY,, No matter what we say we are guys, thats the same for the tg gals here. LEGALY accoring to our birth certificates. Unless your the lucky few that have changed it :)
IN saying that, WE, as GUYS are NOT allowed to use the ladies rest rooms.
That is about the ONLY time we would attract attention from the police.

I know its kinda a catch 22.. as dressed do we use the ladies and risk someone complaing to the cops or do we use the mens and risk getting smacked about ?? :(

If i ever go out dressed i'm peeing b4 i go :) and if out and need t o again im finding a tree somewhere lol :love:

[battybattybats]

Oh one point i will bring up in regards to this is.....
LEGALY,, No matter what we say we are guys, thats the same for the tg gals here. LEGALY accoring to our birth certificates. Unless your the lucky few that have changed it :)
IN saying that, WE, as GUYS are NOT allowed to use the ladies rest rooms.

Not always!
Plenty of places, over 100 cities county's states and the like allow transgender people to use the restroom of their presentation! The first was over 30 years ago which is how we know that the bathroom-panic of recent Transgender Rights legislation battles have been deliberate lies!

[sandra-leigh]

LEGALY,, No matter what we say we are guys, thats the same for the tg gals here. LEGALY accoring to our birth certificates. Unless your the lucky few that have changed it :)
IN saying that, WE, as GUYS are NOT allowed to use the ladies rest rooms.


Citation?? Where does it say in any UN treaty that it shall not be permitted for any country or sub-entity to form their own laws in this regard?

You are making a blanket statement about law everywhere in the world. If you cannot back it up, then you need to with-draw or edit it (even if only to change it to "I believe that...")

There has been a lot of discussion in the USA lately about "bathroom laws", and there are entire US states in which state-wide law says specifically that cross-dressers are permitted to use the women's bathroom there; if you had been watching the 'Media' forum, you would have seen reference to concerted campaigns to get some of those state or city-wide laws repealed. Meaning they are already in effect in some places.


Our social group specifically asked a police representative about bathroom/gender related laws here in Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada: we were told that there was no relevant law and that it not a problem to use the women's bathroom while cross-dressed. The representative did, though, send us follow-up correspondence that "recommended" that we use the male bathroom -- which is to say that there is no specific law here dealing with the matter other than the generic "disturbing the peace", which the police did not feel we were inherently doing, but some members of the public get very uptight about such matters and they disturb the peace and then the poor police have to intervene in a situation they would otherwise have been quite content to have us use the female washrooms. When someone is yelling loudly about "sex perverts", even though they are legally and factually wrong, the laws are generally structured to require the police to act as if the claim was true and valid, even knowing full well that the next level up is going to throw the case out pretty much immediately.

The short moral of which is that in places that do not have specific legal protections for bathroom choice, that although it might entirely legal there to use the women's washroom, doing so is not necessarily going to be free of trouble and legal complications. Which is a very different statement from yours.

[kobe]

I know a few cops and if they caught you crossdressing they might put you in handcuffs and take you home with them, but they arent going to right you up. Just becuase a guy looks mean, just means he wants a hug.

[Jenniferca]

I remember a long time ago (maybe 30 years or so) I was in Cincinnati on business at my hotel...Suddenly there were cops all over the place chasing someone whom they said was a transvestite. Fortunately I was in drab but I doubt they were chasing her simply because she was crossdressing. Maybe she stole something or perhaps was a hooker but at the time I wondered if there was a law against CDing.

Jennifer

[catriona36]

yes Tess i was thinking ahead of my fingers on that one. the funny thing is Tess i have said the same thing you did on other sites lol

Batty i dont know when they changed that here. i was still under the impression that it was still the same old way :S

I should have said, crossdressers only then, as in maybe its different for transgenderd peoples?

oh ok just thinking . but in my case as a crossdresser not a trans genderd person (ie im in it for the kink and escapeisim)
maybe then its a case of im a guy use guy rooms sort of thing.
Batty i have searched our law society and state law stuff and have found nothing :(
I quess its easier for us where state law is state law and there is no real local law makers :) cuts down on confsion for us i gather lol
Maybe next time im up your way we should catch up and talk.
all i know is being out in public is no crime here :)

I will think harder and try to find a way to put my thoughts into *better* words :)
:love:

[Blaire]

The harshest law for CDing that I know of, and have a recent case example handy, is that where I am, a guy was picked up in a market for CDing.

According to the news article, he was sentenced to 6 months, and fined $4,000. Police have appealed the lenient sentence. Mandatory testosterone therapy is possible.

[sandra-leigh]

The harshest law for CDing that I know of, and have a recent case example handy, is that where I am, a guy was picked up in a market for CDing.

Was that perchance in Iran? If not, could you provide more details?

[Sarah Renee]

I enjoy looking at websites that have "dumb laws":

I am from AZ. and there is a law in Tucson prohibiting women from wearing pants.

In Ironton, OH. it is illegal to crossdress.

It is also illegal to CD in Durango, CO.

In Staten Island it is illegal for a father to call his son a "faggot" or "queer" in an effort to curb "girlie behavior".

[Lorileah]

It is also illegal to CD in Durango, CO.



Just skip a little east to Trinidad then :)

[savvy_fudge]

In Maine there is even a law protecting us against discrimination(that's right CDs specifically) so around here I'm not worried about it.

Sweet I live next to Maine. Guess I know where to go for holiday.

[kellycan27]

Actually I think it reinforces an unnecessary climate of fear - it feels more like scaremongering, to me.. :sad:


Nicki
So are you saying it's not a legitiment question, just meant to scare people?

[jenna_woods]

I have been stoped a couple times by police, and they said its my busniss the way I dress, they said no problem, and I did not even get a ticket,

[sandra-leigh]

I enjoy looking at websites that have "dumb laws":


I have spent time researching some of those "dumb laws" that affected crossdressing. The ones I checked out either never existed in the indicated location, or had been repealed at various times ranging from 5 years ago to 37 years ago.

Unless specific citations of jurisdiction and section / paragraph number are given, you should read those lists as being amusing things that may or may not have existed at some time in the past. Some of them may be real and still on the books (even if never enforced), but especially in the USA, the laws would have to be very specific to avoid First Amendment challenges.

[dawnmarrie1961]

Did a google search.
Found a few interesting things.
http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/wsq/v036/36.3-4.sears.html

Here an exert:Project MUSE - WSQ: Women's Studies Quarterly - Electric Brilliancy: Cross-Dressing Law and Freak Show Displays in Nineteenth-Century San Francisco Project MUSE Journals WSQ: Women's Studies Quarterly Volume 36, Numbers 3 & 4, Fall/Winter 2008 Electric Brilliancy: Cross-Dressing Law and Freak Show Displays in Nineteenth-Century San Francisco WSQ: Women's Studies Quarterly Volume 36, Numbers 3 & 4, Fall/Winter 2008 E-ISSN: 1934-1520 Print ISSN: 0732-1562 DOI: 10.1353/wsq.0.0108 Electric Brilliancy: Cross-Dressing Law and Freak Show Displays in Nineteenth-Century San Francisco Clare Sears In 1863, midway through the Civil War, the San Francisco Board of Supervisors passed a local law against cross-dressing that prohibited public appearance "in a dress not belonging to his or her sex" (Revised Orders 1863). That city was not alone in this action: between 1848 and 1900, thirty-four cities in twenty-one states passed laws against cross-dressing, as did eleven additional cities before World War I (Eskridge 1999). Far from being a nineteenth-century anachronism, cross-dressing laws had remarkable longevity and became a key tool for policing transgender and queer communities in the 1950s and 1960s. However, although studies have documented the frequent enforcement of these laws in the mid-twentieth century, far less is known about their operations in the nineteenth century, when they were initially passed. In this essay, I examine the legal and cultural...

Then of course there is the biblical law:
The only verse that appears to directly address the question of cross-dressing is Deuteronomy: Chapter 22, Verse 5,

The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

My own thought is that there are no clear laws against it unless it is being used for deception, which is not an honest practice.

[MsJanessa]

My personal experience is that if you are not breaking some other laws like drunk driving, prostitution etc the police won't bother you

[dawnmarrie1961]

Looks like a fascinating response to the question being asked.

Not unusual. Given that most people tend to be drawn to do the opposite of what ever the law is because of the desire to rebel against authority.:D

Can you imagine a world where being a crossdresser is against the law? :daydreaming: X-ray machines on every corner which you would be forced to walk through to see what lies beneath. Then the eventual arrest and incarceration for crimes against the male race for being found to be wearing woman panties!!!:devil: Oh the shame of it all!!!!:D

[scarlett]

Sara Rene, i live in Tucson. Could you cite a reference to that law. Tucson is very CD friendly and I'm sure it would soon be history and would call attention to our own situation.

[sfwarbonnet]

I want to go out en femme with my wife and use the ladies restroom too – but have encountered considerable resistance from her. I need an “excuse”; like the costume contest at the Las Vegas Star Trek convention. I heard that many of you have used a ladies restroom in LV, but I have heard that that is actually illegal there – any problems?

[cd_jamie]

after reading several replys on this thread I did some checking on laws... there is nothing current I can find and I am sure the ACLU would put so many lawyers in some cops life any charges would be dropped. besides I'll bet more than 1 cop CD's .

[Veronica Nowakowski]

Well I think any law about crossdressing may be against the constitution isn't it say we have the right to persute of happiness. LOL

Kymmie

No, the Declaration of Independence names that as an inalienable right, the Constitution names: life, liberty, and property. They are considered ideals as well, not enforceable rights. It would be against the principles outlined for arbitrarily limiting liberty, but like many other things, the Constitution is read in various ways and courts tend to uphold any such irrational law if the public is behind it. Gotta get reelected you know.

[Joselle3]

I've never heard of any such laws
Sheesh..haul you off to jail because your wearing a dress? And the charge would be? Trying to look pretty in public? Sixty days!:brolleyes:

[Alice Green]

As far as I know I don't know any.

[sfwarbonnet]

I've heard that using a ladies restroon is illegal in Las Vegas unless you're a GG.

[Wrenchette]

I am remembering an episode of Barney Miller where Wojciehowicz arrests a crossdresser for something but I can't remember what and can't find a video of the episode "Vigilante." As I recall, Wojo arrested him after he hit on the crossdresser and was pissed after she turned out to be a he...

[PaulaJaneThomas]

Nobody in our national association, so far as I can find out, has ever in 25 years been arrested for crossdressing. Certainly not by the police in one town near here where the chief of police cross-dresses (not while on duty!).

I think the European Court of Human Rights would take a dim view of any participating state (which includes all EU states) which had any form of general ban. Public toilets are a bit of grey area as you have to balance the rights of the TG against the rights of GGs for a certain level of privacy.

[carrie-ann]

They are a bunch of old laws that they don't enforce any more but are still on the books encase they want to use them. There are 23 states where it is on the books thqat a woman must wear dress and they have to be below the knees to the ankles.

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Citations, please. Do you by any chance have the link or resource where you obtained this information?

Hugs...Joni Mari




They are a bunch of old laws that they don't enforce any more but are still on the books encase they want to use them. There are 23 states where it is on the books thqat a woman must wear dress and they have to be below the knees to the ankles.

[battybattybats]

Public toilets are a bit of grey area as you have to balance the rights of the TG against the rights of GGs for a certain level of privacy.

When there are lesbians that rape and abuse children and individual stalls in all toilets what privacy issues are there really that are not actually just transphobia?

[Jonianne]

.......Trying to look pretty in public?.......

Well, I could be arrested for being "ugly" in public. :tongueout

Years ago my ex tried to get me in trouble by telling the police I crossdressed and they just told her that's not illegal.

[PaulaJaneThomas]

When there are lesbians that rape and abuse children and individual stalls in all toilets what privacy issues are there really that are not actually just transphobia?

I'm not aware of any incident of "lesbians" raping or abusing children in toilets in the UK. I am aware of cases of male paedophiles (would they be "gays" in your terminology?) abusing children in male toilets.

[battybattybats]

I'm not aware of any incident of "lesbians" raping or abusing children in toilets in the UK. I am aware of cases of male paedophiles (would they be "gays" in your terminology?) abusing children in male toilets.

There aren't any cases of TGs doing so either but it doesnt stop the assumption that there will be, though there are lesbian rapists and pedophiles like the headmisstress of an Australian religious girls school (i think it was last year) as one example.

[Barbaraheels]

I'm not sure if there are any laws against crossdressing specifically in some towns. I do know there are laws that crossdressing might fall under. There are laws prohibiting altering your appearance or wearing a disguise in public, I'm sure crossdressing may fall under these laws. But those may be against the law if you only intend to commit a crime while doing it.