Are YOU the unaccepting one?

[helenr]

Like others, I do think quite a bit about crossdressing, transgender thinking,and related subjects. It crossed my mind that perhaps a large component of the stress of crossdressing is that we ourselves are hardest on our behavior. That we are the most intolerant of the act. So often I believe our community tends to view outsiders as unaccepting, ignorant, likely to mock, belittle-put down any male who feels the need to be feminine and soft. Maybe we are our own worse enemies and first in line to swing the paddle of punishment for who and what we are? Does this have any validity,do you think?

[Sally2005]

I think you are correct, self acceptance has a lot to do with it. I'm not sure the rest of society is 100% ready for us, but I think if you haven't accepted yourself, it is very difficult to ask your SO to do it. Maybe it is stereotypical, but even though we are CDers we are still expected to be the strong ones and make our families and SOs feel secure that we will always here for them. I think the sudden apparent change can be a problem.

[Shari]

It's all because of a general frustration that we as males must fit a certain criteria nd play that role throughout our lives.

Pressure exists to be John Wayne or Clint Eastwood and we all tend to buy into it and in effect, emulate those styles.

When I'm dressed I think sometimes, "What would so and so think of me if they saw me right now? What a shock it would be to so many who know me."

We suck it up and just go on, enjoying the precious special times when we can simply let go for awhile.

You're not alone.

[Samantha Kelsey]

Helen, you took the words right out of my mouth. It's obvious that many CD's themselves believe that it's not right or they wouldn't be closeted would they?

OR

Is it that perhaps they feel guilty about what else they do while dressed?

BUT

Most 'normal' people do that too in many different ways and most also feel guilty about it don't they?

ANYWAY

When you become a seasoned CDer that bit goes away and you're left free to just wear the clothes with nothing to feel guilty about!!

[Karren H]

I'm not hard on my behavior.... I'm hard on my looks and what I wear.... My behavior is my behavior and I can't change that but I try to look as good as I can but I'm usually not happy with even my best attempts.... even more so of late....

[Nicki B]

It seems perfectly plain to me that the battles one fights are with oneself, not other people.. Once you have accepted yourself, generally others are willing to do so.

This all links back to Batty's recent comments about internalised transphobia - that's what it is.

[patricia 402]

ya this hits the nail on the head i have to be perfect at everything i do im a workohlick im a clean freak i think i do everything overboard just because who i am and seem to just try harder so nobody realy noes who i am inside and thats not a bad thing its just who i am:battingeyelashes:

[TGMarla]

It's obvious that many CD's themselves believe that it's not right or they wouldn't be closeted would they?
Tell that to my wife. I stay closeted for one reason: it's out of respect for the fact that my wife simply does not want this as a part of her life. She has that right, and I respect it. I don't believe it's wrong, myself, or I would not likely be doing it. But she is very old-fashioned in her views on gender and male-female interaction. I love her, and I respect her. Therefore, I don't push the line on this with her. My battles with myself were settled quite a while ago, and I'm no longer fighting with myself over it very much. But as long as my wife is uncomfortable with it, I am willing to keep it to myself. Marriage is a give and take, and this is one way I can compromise in order to help keep us happy and together.

[battybattybats]

It seems perfectly plain to me that the battles one fights are with oneself, not other people.. Once you have accepted yourself, generally others are willing to do so.

This all links back to Batty's recent comments about internalised transphobia - that's what it is.

Your right there. It explains just about everything that a big issue amongst us, either partially or totally. Its the key to comprehending much of ourselves and our experiences.


Tell that to my wife. I stay closeted for one reason: it's out of respect for the fact that my wife simply does not want this as a part of her life. She has that right, and I respect it.

How can she have that right? Her dentist might be a CD, her doctor, the paramedic who saves her life after a car accident as well as the police who arrest the driver might be CDs... She can't have that right. No-one can have that right. That right cannot possibly exist. She has choices she has a right to make in her life that's true.. but she has no right to have CDing not a part of it any more than anyone has a right not to have Blacks in their life or Jews or Christians.

Even if your willing to keep it out of the marriage by your choice because she has the right to leave the marriage if she wishes there is no right to inequality or to not be exposed to the existence of other CDs.


I don't believe it's wrong, myself, or I would not likely be doing it. But she is very old-fashioned in her views on gender and male-female interaction.

Views that harm others, not just yourself. I heard similar arguments from people who kept their non-white partners secret from a grandparent for years to protect them from the discomfort of having to face their own racism. Same with homophobia.

By many credible estimates there is a 1 in 10 or maybe even higher chance any male child, grandchild neice or nephew of yours is a CD (actually it's a 1-in-10 for each of them so you could even have more than one!). Your comfort and your protecting your wife from the discomfort of being faced with and overcoming her prejudice may well be harming them. Even if you stay closeted those kids and the rest of the TG kids and all the other CDs in your town/suburb etc deserve her acceptance.

[linnea]

I think that Batty is correct on the rights issue. In practical application, we all have to decide what works best in our personal relationships.

[Annie D]

Out of the respect for my wife and her current feelings of embarrassment or fear of what others might think if they knew that I am a crossdresser I currently choose to abide by her bounderies. However, the more that I venture out as Annie, the braver and more self-assured that I become. I can now go shopping at most anywhere that I want at anytime that I want. I agree 100% what others have said; that once we ourselves take away the fear of what others think that we become free to be the person we wish to be. It has taken me a long time for me to realize that I may be recognized as a man in a dress or simply a large woman but I have found that the more confident that I become the more accepted I also become.

[Carly D.]

Like others, I do think quite a bit about crossdressing, transgender thinking,and related subjects. It crossed my mind that perhaps a large component of the stress of crossdressing is that we ourselves are hardest on our behavior. That we are the most intolerant of the act. So often I believe our community tends to view outsiders as unaccepting, ignorant, likely to mock, belittle-put down any male who feels the need to be feminine and soft. Maybe we are our own worse enemies and first in line to swing the paddle of punishment for who and what we are? Does this have any validity,do you think?

WOW you nailed that one.. yeah, I mean the truth is I don't understand why I do this (cross dressing) and if ever asked I would have the response of bewilderment because I'm stunned that I do this.. I can't explain why.. besides the fact that I really love the way the clothing feels, it is after all just clothing.. I might could find a male substitute for some of the clothing as in socks made like knee highs (of nylon) or underwear made of nylon.. but I think they make pantyhose for men called mantyhose but I think some of doing this is the thrill of wearing womens clothing.. and it really is not fully accepted by society, maybe that is part of the draw too...

[melinda45]

might be our own worst enemy ! who wants to live with a crazy confused person ? acceptance for yourself is the key . wish it was easy !

[battybattybats]

might be our own worst enemy ! who wants to live with a crazy confused person ? acceptance for yourself is the key . wish it was easy !

Actually it IS easy. It takes time but it IS easy. It's easy because thousands of people have gone through the equivalent problems before us, it's been studied and the answers are there.

Only trouble is many people don't want to hear the answers or accept them or use them. But they exist and they have been stated repeatedly on this site in the last few weeks.

First. The problem has a name by which we can identify it and understand it. Transphobia is the name in non-transgender people that makes us not accept or hate ourselves and Internalised Transphobia is it inside us. It's a form of Internalised Oppression. Threadon that here: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106070

Here is a list of the 6 simple easy answers you seek, written for people to help others get over their Internalised Oppression, so if we all do these for one another then that will be that! http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106759

If more of us do these then we will fix this problem, not just for ourselves but our entire society and culture. But how many of the 6 do you see people doing here? We are all doing number 3 online (but offline?) and many of us do number 1 online (but offline?) but only a handful appear to be doing all 6. And thats what we need to do, to each strive to do more of these 6 simple things.

[Nicole Erin]

So often I believe our community tends to view outsiders as unaccepting, ignorant, likely to mock, belittle-put down any male who feels the need to be feminine and soft.

I tend to think that of outsiders. Of course for one reason or another I have always caught hell from people.

[tanya1976]

Actually it IS easy. It takes time but it IS easy. It's easy because thousands of people have gone through the equivalent problems before us, it's been studied and the answers are there.

Only trouble is many people don't want to hear the answers or accept them or use them. But they exist and they have been stated repeatedly on this site in the last few weeks.

First. The problem has a name by which we can identify it and understand it. Transphobia is the name in non-transgender people that makes us not accept or hate ourselves and Internalised Transphobia is it inside us. It's a form of Internalised Oppression. Threadon that here: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106070

Here is a list of the 6 simple easy answers you seek, written for people to help others get over their Internalised Oppression, so if we all do these for one another then that will be that! http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106759

If more of us do these then we will fix this problem, not just for ourselves but our entire society and culture. But how many of the 6 do you see people doing here? We are all doing number 3 online (but offline?) and many of us do number 1 online (but offline?) but only a handful appear to be doing all 6. And thats what we need to do, to each strive to do more of these 6 simple things.

Although this certainly sounds plausible don't you think it's perhaps slightly over deterministic to blame everything on internalised transphobia? Is it not perhaps necessary to examine the causes behind such an affliction? Personally I never hated myself for crossdressing but there was a period of time, in the past now thankfully, when I was scared of being exposed purely because I was scared of the reactions of people I cared about in relation to what I then percieved the popular perception of crossdressers to be i.e either Psycho, Silence of the Lambs or Little Britain's Emily "I'm a lady " Howard. Not great in other words.
Now some of my friends know about me and they've all been cool but there are still many, including my family, who don't and nor would I want them to. This is nothing to do with internalised transphobia just my own personal comfort levels at this point in time.
It is quite easy to say all you need is self-acceptance but in reality we wouldn't be human if we didn't question ourselves or our motives for crossdressing. Similarly I believe it's natural for comfort levels to increase and decrease, it's the same with anything really...

[sissystephanie]

Internalized Transphobia?? Big words, but what do they mean? You have an internal fear of being a CD? So what? Either you are or you are not!

I am what I am!! I have developed my self confidence, because no one can do it for me! I go out in public looking like what I am! A man wearing feminine clothing! You don't like the way I look, well then don't look at me! And don't dare get me upset, because I am not at all nice when I am upset!

You have to have self-acceptance all thru life. If you don't you will not have a very happy life. Some of the things you have to learn to accept may not be just the way you want them, but you have to adapt to those situations. Life is not always fair, but it is Life!! The alternative is nowhere near as good, IMHO!

[battybattybats]

Although this certainly sounds plausible don't you think it's perhaps slightly over deterministic to blame everything on internalised transphobia?

I'm not blaming Global Warming on it. Only every single issue a CD or TS has that a non-CD or non-TS does not that is not caused by External Transphobia.

Thats not being overly deterministic. Just logical.


Is it not perhaps necessary to examine the causes behind such an affliction?

Yes. The cause of Internalised Transphobia is exposure to Transphobia. Just like the cause of Internalised Racism is exposure to Racism.


Personally I never hated myself for crossdressing

Ah but it is not just hating oneself. Guilt, shame, embarassment, discomfort, purging... there are many aspects to it. Have a look at the source article and their lists of examples of internalised racism and sexism.. there are many subtle effects involving the way parents treat their kids, people treat others of their own group and more. The way women in the workforce may over-harshly treat other women in the workforce is one of the examples.


but there was a period of time, in the past now thankfully, when I was scared of being exposed purely because I was scared of the reactions of people I cared about in relation to what I then percieved the popular perception of crossdressers to be i.e either Psycho, Silence of the Lambs or Little Britain's Emily "I'm a lady " Howard. Not great in other words.

Indeed. The existence of Transphobia we experience causes us to respond to it.. often dissproportionately so our fears are worse than the risks for most of us.


Now some of my friends know about me and they've all been cool but there are still many, including my family, who don't and nor would I want them to. This is nothing to do with internalised transphobia just my own personal comfort levels at this point in time.

What were the influences on your comfort levels? Were you and are you right now totally 100% comfortable with every variation of gender presentation? Did you or do you ever feel uncomfortable seeing a very masculine non-passing crossdresser? Or someone mixing strong combinations of mixed presentation like a beard and a floral dress?

If so you may be one of the very lucky ones with very little internalised transphobia and only effected by external transphobia.. and may also possibly have mild autism or aspergers both of which are resistences to internalisation and are found much more often in out TS and CDs than in the general population.


It is quite easy to say all you need is self-acceptance but in reality we wouldn't be human if we didn't question ourselves or our motives for crossdressing.

Why? Do non-crossdressers find themselves plagued with the question "Why don't I ever want to crossdress?" Nope. We only have that feelling because thousands of years of transgender culture was attacked and deliberately stamped out. Crossdressing is an everyday experience in cultures around the world throughout human history. If it hadn't been outlawed and labeled as taboo we'd have grown up our entire lives with it as a respected part of ordinary everday life. If so why would we be plagued by questions?


Similarly I believe it's natural for comfort levels to increase and decrease, it's the same with anything really...

Why?
My comfort level with liking 1950's scifi films and Peter Cushing and Christopher Lee Dracula films doesn't increase and decrease (maybe it would if I were not a goth). Nor my enjoyment of Fencing or Tai Chi. My friends comfort level with loving soccer doesn't increase or decrease. I'm pretty sure the comfort levels of straight people with being straight or cis people with being cis doesn't go up and down. I think its only where we fear others judgement, hear others judging these things and begin to judge ourselves that this occurs.


Internalized Transphobia?? Big words, but what do they mean? You have an internal fear of being a CD?

No. It's not just fear. Discomfort, embarassment, shame, guilt. Any one or more of those. Or feelling discomfort, embarassment, disgust, anger or the like towards other kinds of transgender! A CD who finds those who dont pass, especially those who don't try to pass discomforting or wrong... a TS who finds crossdressing disturbing gross and wrong.. thats a result of internalised transphobia!


So what? Either you are or you are not!

True.. but that is not the way people usually think. Because we are social animals. We have brain regions designed to drive us to want positive social interaction and avoid negative ones.. the same brain region that reacts to chocolate and to sex! We can train ourselves out of the reflex to avoid judgement and instead defy it.. by the sorts of things listed in that list of answers above, but it is a rare person who doesn't have to adapt that way.


I am what I am!! I have developed my self confidence, because no one can do it for me! I go out in public looking like what I am! A man wearing feminine clothing! You don't like the way I look, well then don't look at me! And don't dare get me upset, because I am not at all nice when I am upset!

Which is good, and we should help each other do that too. But we should not judge those that struggle as its easier for some than others.


You have to have self-acceptance all thru life. If you don't you will not have a very happy life.

So very, very, very true.

In fact one of the theories for why Goths and people into consenting BDSM on average score higher on happiness measurements than non-goth and non-bdsm average is that by embracing something that is outside strict 'normality' pressures they are more able to accept all aspects of their true selves and thus become far happier people with much higher levels of mental health!


Some of the things you have to learn to accept may not be just the way you want them, but you have to adapt to those situations. Life is not always fair, but it is Life!! The alternative is nowhere near as good, IMHO!

Fairness is imposed on life by the actions of people. Standing up for fairness for ones self and for others not only increases the fairness for everybody but it helps people be happy and accept themselves. Not only is it number 4 on the list of ways to overcome Internalised Transphobia and listed as the most powerful on the list but its been shown that it helps general happiness.

So we can make life more fair and feel bettwer and happier in the process!

Overcoming Internal and External Transphobia at the same time with small simple acts!

[sarahNZ]

I'm not hard on my behavior.... I'm hard on my looks and what I wear.... My behavior is my behavior and I can't change that but I try to look as good as I can but I'm usually not happy with even my best attempts.... even more so of late....

Ya reccon?! Damn girl you don't look to bad to me!



As for me I can accept who i am and always try to see the positive in others no matter who they are. I also accept the fact that not all people have the same levels of acceptance as me. And for that reason I do not push the envelope, eg not to put a label on my brother in law but he knows that i dress and still accepts me as the guy that he has known for years but he does not wish to see me in a dress, which is why i will not do so in town. :2c:

[tanya1976]

'I'm not blaming Global Warming on it. Only every single issue a CD or TS has that a non-CD or non-TS does not that is not caused by External Transphobia.

Thats not being overly deterministic. Just logical'.

Ha ha. very witty. But versed, as you appear to be, in the shools of differing theories I am sure you are aware it is overly simplistic to ascribe any effect to just one cause

Quote:
'Now some of my friends know about me and they've all been cool but there are still many, including my family, who don't and nor would I want them to. This is nothing to do with internalised transphobia just my own personal comfort levels at this point in time.
What were the influences on your comfort levels? Were you and are you right now totally 100% comfortable with every variation of gender presentation? Did you or do you ever feel uncomfortable seeing a very masculine non-passing crossdresser? Or someone mixing strong combinations of mixed presentation like a beard and a floral dress?

If so you may be one of the very lucky ones with very little internalised transphobia and only effected by external transphobia.. and may also possibly have mild autism or aspergers both of which are resistences to internalisation and are found much more often in out TS and CDs than in the general population'.

Good point. I'm not sure how to answer as I've already stated that, in my humble opinion, comfort levels increase and decrease so it would perhaps seem logical to state that of course I'm not 100% comfortable with all the variations. It is an impossible goal to achieve. That doesn't mean however that I have any proscribed laws for how people should live, or any implied kind of moral judgement, more 'I know what I like and what works for me'. Having said that people make judgements all the time, I'm not sure why anyone expects the transgendered community to be any different.

Quote:
'It is quite easy to say all you need is self-acceptance but in reality we wouldn't be human if we didn't question ourselves or our motives for crossdressing.
Why? Do non-crossdressers find themselves plagued with the question "Why don't I ever want to crossdress?" Nope. We only have that feelling because thousands of years of transgender culture was attacked and deliberately stamped out. Crossdressing is an everyday experience in cultures around the world throughout human history. If it hadn't been outlawed and labeled as taboo we'd have grown up our entire lives with it as a respected part of ordinary everday life. If so why would we be plagued by questions'?

Are you not plagued by questions? Why are we here...what is the point of existence...etc etc

Quote:
Similarly I believe it's natural for comfort levels to increase and decrease, it's the same with anything really...
Why?
My comfort level with liking 1950's scifi films and Peter Cushing and Christopher Lee Dracula films doesn't increase and decrease (maybe it would if I were not a goth). Nor my enjoyment of Fencing or Tai Chi. My friends comfort level with loving soccer doesn't increase or decrease. I'm pretty sure the comfort levels of straight people with being straight or cis people with being cis doesn't go up and down. I think its only where we fear others judgement, hear others judging these things and begin to judge ourselves that this occurs.

Come on. Crossdressing is not the same thing. I see it more as travelling down a road. How far do you want to go, what are you leaving behind, what will you find when you get there...One day you may walk a little too far and have to turn back, another you may go a little further...

I'd just like to say these are just reactions. I enjoyed your post and shall peruse it more fully when time allows.:hugs:

[battybattybats]

Ha ha. very witty. But versed, as you appear to be, in the shools of differing theories I am sure you are aware it is overly simplistic to ascribe any effect to just one cause

This is an exceedingly common effect found across cultures in many countries in different fields, in racism, sexism, ablism and more.

Sure in theory there may be other factors... after all some of the light you see by during the day is actually light from distant stars.. but compared to the light from our own sun it's so negligable as to not even be worth mentioning when the 99.99999999% of the issue is sunlight.


Good point. I'm not sure how to answer as I've already stated that, in my humble opinion, comfort levels increase and decrease

But what do you base your opinion on? Transphobia is like dealing with optical illusions when studying light. It needs to be understood to see clearly whats really going on.


so it would perhaps seem logical to state that of course I'm not 100% comfortable with all the variations.

Or alternately discomfort is caused by internalised transphobia.


It is an impossible goal to achieve.

Why?


That doesn't mean however that I have any proscribed laws for how people should live, or any implied kind of moral judgement, more 'I know what I like and what works for me'.

But how you feel is effected by internalised oppression! Thats a key point!


Having said that people make judgements all the time, I'm not sure why anyone expects the transgendered community to be any different.

Few people make negative judgements equally in all directions. otherwise racism and sexism would go both ways equally but they dont. And yes our community has horisontal hostility like other groups with internalised oppression, something that entrnches harm and oppression and reduces our capacity to create change. But that is somethign we can overcome. I see no reason we shouldn't.


Are you not plagued by questions? Why are we here...what is the point of existence...etc etc

You miss my point. We do not question usually why we belong to a priviliged group, only why we belong to an oppressed one. Thats totally different from meaning-of-life stuff.


Come on. Crossdressing is not the same thing. I see it more as travelling down a road. How far do you want to go, what are you leaving behind, what will you find when you get there...One day you may walk a little too far and have to turn back, another you may go a little further...

Your right, the difference with crossdressing is that it's less acceptable. Comparisons can be found with peoples self acceptance of being gay, of being very intellectual when their peers are anti-intellectual. You said 'same as anything really', I point out that its only the same as things people suffer being judged harshly for.


I'd just like to say these are just reactions. I enjoyed your post and shall peruse it more fully when time allows.:hugs:

:) No worries. :hugs: