Is cding a matter of clothes

[Diane Elizabeth]

I know there have been threads about cding and the clothes we wear. but my thoughts have been looking at a bit of a different perspective.
If a man wears a dress is a crossdresser. Then is a woman wearing pants also a crossdressers. Most would say that wearing pants does not make a female a CDr. It should, based on the fact that society sees a man in a dress as a CDr.
But the pants are made and sized for a female. What if the dress is made and sized for a male. Then he would no more be a crossdresser than the female is who wears pants made for her.
He could only be a crossdresser if the dress was made to be worn by a woman. So if you bought a dress made for a CD/TG than is it made for a man and then one is not CDing. Does this make sense. What do you all have to say on the subject. Food for thought. dylen

[TSchapes]

You can look at the Scots (kilt) or the Greeks (foustanela) and know these are made for men even though they are the same as a skirt.

I will put forward though that women's clothing does bring out the feminine regardless of gender.

My proof of this, is from two separate episodes of "What not to Wear". Both women worked in male dominated professions (fire fighting), and wore mostly men's clothes or men's styled clothes. When both were re-introduced to dresses, high-heels, lace and pretty colors, they both remarked that they felt more feminine. Something I can relate to.

But if a man puts on a kilt, he'll relate more to the highlanders than women.

:2c: - Tracy

[Patricia1]

Well Dylen, a bit of a stretch, no? Everything is perception. Women dressed in women's or even men's pants are usually if not always presenting as women. A man in a dress, even if the dress was made specifically for "her" wouldn't be presenting as a man in a dress, not usually anyway. He would be presenting as a woman & hoping to be taken as such. Technically, a woman in pants might be taken as a crossdresser, but that is not the "norm". A man in a dress, except a man's ceremonial kilt, is a crossdresser using the same norm.

[Trip_rockcity]

Depends on what part of the world you come from ¿

[Joni Marie Cruz]

This is really confusing me. Maybe a glass of wine would help.

Hugs...Joni Marie

[GaleWarning]

Patricia, there are more than several of us here on this forum who do not try to "present as a woman". We are content to be seen as a man in a dress.

For me, I simply enjoy the fabrics and textures. And I believe that we should be free to dress as we like, without needing to be concerned how others perceive us.

What is normal? Surely our aim, even those who dress to emulate women, is to have MtF crossdressing accepted as being normal?

[Patricia1]

Patricia, there are more than several of us here on this forum who do not try to "present as a woman". We are content to be seen as a man in a dress.

For me, I simply enjoy the fabrics and textures. And I believe that we should be free to dress as we like, without needing to be concerned how others perceive us.

What is normal? Surely our aim, even those who dress to emulate women, is to have MtF crossdressing accepted as being normal?

No offense intended - I did qualify my comments with quote marks on "norm" and qualified phrases with "not usually". Believe me, I accept and embrace all of us here. We are all the norm and all unique.

[ReineD]

Here's my take on this. :2c: I can think of 5 reasons for GMs to dress (outside of androgyny):

1. For comfort: The GM whose motive for wearing a dress is the same as a GG's motive for wearing pants. He does not identify as a woman. He has no wish to express, present, or be taken as a woman and he does not wear forms, wigs, or makeup. Wearing the clothes does not become a sexual experience. He may identify as a CDer as long as the dresses he wants to wear are not acceptable clothing choices for men.

2. For sexual gratification (transvestic fetishist): The GM may or may not identify as a woman, but he wishes to remove the clothes as soon as he is satisfied. He does not wish to dress outside of having sexual experiences.

The line between #2 and #3 is sometimes blurry, or it is crossed over as a CDer ages and gains confidence.

3. For gender assimilation (crossdresser): The majority of TGs fit this category. His motive for dressing is to become and be treated as the woman that he periodically (to varying degrees) identifies with. He does not wish any of his male self shining through while dressed. There are also different degrees as to the frequency. This may have started out as transvestic fetishism.

The line between #3, and #4 or #5 is frequently blurred, depending on the degree of pink fog or conversely, denial.

4. For gender identificaton (transperson): The GM wishes to preserve his male anatomy while having an outwardly feminine appearance, either full or near full time. She is likely not to experience an obcession with the clothes and styles as the GM in example 3. She does not identify as a male.

5. For gender identificaton (transsexual): The GM rejects his male identity, she fully identifies as a woman, and she wishes to live as female full time (with or without SRS). She does not experience an obcession with the clothes and styles as the GM in example 3.



Dylen you describe example 1. There are very few CDers who fit this example, at least in this forum. And if men's styles did change to include dresses and skirts, then he would not be a CDer at all.

[Kate Simmons]

It may begin that way but reasons may change over time due to one's personal evolution as a person.:)

[Jonianne]

ReineD, as usual, has an excellent grasp on things "trans". I think the most important thing for most who crossdress, is who you identify with. I don't identify "as" a female, but I do identify "with" females in a lot of ways. I enjoy wearing women's cloths because of my identity "with" women. If a female wears male cloths because she/he identifys "with" or "as" a male then they are crossdressing too. Most women wear male type cloths, as ReineD pointed out, for comfort or appropiateness. Male's wearing tights doing ballet or other performance are not crossdressing either (usually).

[Jilmac]

I have heard the reference to women who wear mens clothes (and sometimes present themselves as male), as "Butch". I don't think it is used as a derogatory term but I'm not quite sure. As far as I'm concerned though, both terms are nothing more than labels for something out of the ordinary.

[Nicki B]

All clothing sends signals about the person wearing it..

That's why we choose to wear what we wear, because of what it says to ourselves (and others). So clothing is a symptom, not a cause.

[docrobbysherry]

How many women buy and wear MEN'S jeans?:brolleyes:

What would u guess? 25%? 10%? 1%? Any? :brolleyes:

[Intertwined]

Well Dylen, a bit of a stretch, no? Everything is perception. Women dressed in women's or even men's pants are usually if not always presenting as women. A man in a dress, even if the dress was made specifically for "her" wouldn't be presenting as a man in a dress, not usually anyway. He would be presenting as a woman & hoping to be taken as such. Technically, a woman in pants might be taken as a crossdresser, but that is not the "norm". A man in a dress, except a man's ceremonial kilt, is a crossdresser using the same norm.

YES & NO, but thats just my point of view.

I wear womens clothing because I like feeling " Pretty ", which male clothing can't do for me. My Definition of PRETTY; : appearing pleasant, nice but lacking strength, force, manliness. I am not trying to look like a woman, don't want to be mistaken for one.


Here's my take on this. :2c: I can think of 5 reasons for GMs to dress (outside of androgyny):

1. For comfort: The GM whose motive for wearing a dress is the same as a GG's motive for wearing pants. He does not identify as a woman. He has no wish to express, present, or be taken as a woman and he does not wear forms, wigs, or makeup. Wearing the clothes does not become a sexual experience. He may identify as a CDer as long as the dresses he wants to wear are not acceptable clothing choices for men.

Ding Ding Ding, thats me, and you statement Reine just made something click for me.

For the same reason GG's do not get harrased about wearing pants and other male items, may be the same reason I very rarely ever have a bad experience. The GG in pants and other male clothing is not trying to pass as something they are not, When I crossdress, I make it VERY obvious, I am a GUY in a skirt and heels. Very Interesting

[Super Amanda]

All clothing sends signals about the person wearing it..

That's why we choose to wear what we wear, because of what it says to ourselves (and others). So clothing is a symptom, not a cause.

:iagree:

[2B Natasha]

Anyone ever see these in action.

http://www.utilikilts.com/

In Seattle they are becoming more and more everyday wear. Nobody here even thinks twice about them. I see them all the time. I work with a fellow who wears one everyday to work and nobody cares. They are made of the same quality denim as Carharts are.

So if a man walks down the road in a kilt that isn't Scottish then what?

[Intertwined]

Anyone ever see these in action?

http://www.utilikilts.com/

Those are quite popular at one of our local high schools.

Here is my version of a Utilikilt, made by Tripp that I purchased at Hot Topic
89592
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=87014&d=1240552909

[Lisa Golightly]

Sartor Resartus... Whenever I see threads like these I'm immediately reminded of Sartor Resartus (the tailor re-tailored) by Thomas Carlyle...

"All visible things are emblems; what thou seest is not there on its own account; strictly taken, is not there at all: Matter exists only spiritually, and to represent some Idea, and _body_ it forth. Hence Clothes, as despicable as we think them, are so unspeakably significant..."

He means far more than mere 'clothes'... but it is a book I was fascinated with at University.

[ReineD]

Anyone ever see these in action.

http://www.utilikilts.com/

I have not seen these before and I must say I think they are very attractive! They seem to enhance virility rather than try to mask it.

[Teri Jean]

In my perspective clothes do not make the man/woman but what the person feels inside. There are many who feel differently but in the world today men do wear dresses/skirts and women wear pants/pantsuits so therefore it is not what a person wears but how they feel when wearing their choice. For me a dress or skirt projects my desires to be feminine not so much to be a female.

Keli

[Karren H]

Oh come on!! Women wearing slacks or pants designed for women is not crossdressing.. Just because they were typically worn by men in the past has nothing to do with anything... Be like men wearing kilts labeled as crossdressers? Hell in the future women might be wearing wingtips and maleish business suits and men running around naked!! Hahaha.

[Samantha Kelsey]

Hi Dylen, I think the answer to "Is cding a matter of clothes?" has to be Yes it is.
Then ah BUT many CD's me included also use make up and wear wigs, breast forms, nail varnish etc as well as shaving off body hair. We are still CDs because we dress in female attire but go beyond that. We don't necessarily want to be women and aren't gay. I wonder should we use an added title like CD+ to indicate this?

[Alice B]

When a woman wears man clothing she is still a woman. She has the shape and mannerisms of a woman. We as men wear woman's clothing for as many reasons as there are stars. For me, when I dress as a woman I know I'm still a man underneath. But, I want to look like a woman, act like a woman and feel like a woman if only for a brief time. I'm not fooling anyone including myself, but the feelings are intense at the time and enjoyable.

[kellycan27]

Oh come on!! Women wearing slacks or pants designed for women is not crossdressing.. Just because they were typically worn by men in the past has nothing to do with anything... Be like men wearing kilts labeled as crossdressers? Hell in the future women might be wearing wingtips and maleish business suits and men running around naked!! Hahaha.

Thank you Karen... how many times has this subject come up? Nice try... but I don't think so. Ladies in pants,crossdressers....:heehee:

[linnea]

I think that it makes some sense, but it really splits some hairs (and you know how we girls feel about split ends).
If it were only about the clothes, I might agree, but for me it is about attitude and behavior and outlook. The clothes help to put me into a frame of mind to express my feminine attitude and behaviour and outlook.

[TGMarla]

Hell in the future women might be wearing wingtips
You mean like these? :D

If crossdressing were strictly about the clothing, I wouldn't wear boobies....or hip pads.....or wigs.

[Dressing Jill]

I'm with you Joni. Except I have had 2 glasses of wine and now I don't know what to think. LOL

[Ralph]

trimmed for brevity
1. He does not identify as a woman. He has no wish to express, present, or be taken as a woman and he does not wear forms, wigs, or makeup.
snip remaining descriptions, all very well thought out
Dylen you describe example 1. There are very few CDers who fit this example, at least in this forum.
You had me right up to that point. Maybe you and I are seeing different threads (no pun intended), but I find a large part of this group who fits that category along with me. At least two others just in this thread has said as much. Others have said they would not mess with the wigs and makeup except "passing" makes it easier to dress without being hassled in public.

Guys who want to be guys - we're more numerous than you think :battingeyelashes:

ralph

[tricia_uktv]

Its about portraying yourself as you wish to be. Clothes come into it but its more important than that. Thats why some are desperate to pass and others don't worry. We are all different, even on this forum but thats a good thing.

[LA CINDY LOVE]

Crossdressing is a matter of clothes .......and if crossdressing is not a matter of clothes
then try to express the female in you.........in drab.

LA CINDY LOVE