Religious pressures

[Rayne1]

First obstacle so far.
I told my pastor about my transsexual transition and even gave him a explanation in printed form to help him understand. He didn't. "God made you the way you are as a male body and you should not be going against His design in changing your body to female". I tried to explain but there was no reasoning with him. He told me to pray about it and not ot tell anyone else in the congregation because of any possible problems it might bring up. I told him I would respect his wishes in not telling anyone else. I told him I had already thought this through thoroughly and was only correcting the outward portion like in morfidism. I told Him I am the same spiritual person I was before starting transition and there was nothing to think about. He thinks that there must be something wrong with my spiriutal connection with God or I would not be thinking that way. He feels I should give it all up even if I have to have surgery to reverse the effects of transition. I told him that was not going to happen. If he did not want me there I would find another place where they did not know me.

[Nicole_P]

Rayne1~

I know it may be difficult, but do not listen to those who will prevent you from becoming who you were meant to be! There are two camps that people come from- the love camp or the fear camp. If I were you, I would only listen to those in the love camp!
Best of luck to you on your journey! It's a great ride! :)
Just my .02...
Nicole

[Sharon]

Some people fear and mistrust what they don't understand, and religious folk are no different.

So what your pastor is saying is that if your child is born with a defective heart or some other malady, you shouldn't try to have it repaired as this is the way God made it. Same thing isn't it?

[Lisa Golightly]

Maybe God simply wants you to make this journey...

[Kaitlyn Michele]

As Lisa points out, God did make you the way you are ...turns out this this is the way you are ....your preacher is missing the whole point of being human

he must be a very perfect person

:Angry3:

[Stlalice]

Sent you a PM - I'm up in the St. Louis area and I know all too well the problems you are facing. Feel free to contact me. :hugs:

[nik12345]

once in awhile a pastor will show up at my door with the best intentions of trying to save my soul and end up scaring the crap out of me. as long as you're living a honest life, who cares about the details?

[Rayne1]

Some people fear and mistrust what they don't understand, and religious folk are no different.

So what your pastor is saying is that if your child is born with a defective heart or some other malady, you shouldn't try to have it repaired as this is the way God made it. Same thing isn't it?

Sharon:
No he is just saying that God created male and female and we should not change that. If I was created a morfidite that would be different. I told him that is the case with transsexuals they are created with one mind and a body of another. He does not agree with that. We are just confused people.
Rayne1


As Lisa points out, God did make you the way you are ...turns out this this is the way you are ....your preacher is missing the whole point of being human

he must be a very perfect person

:Angry3:

He feels that the end of time is closing on us and that I should be concerned about my salvation in thinking these ridiculuous ideas of a sex change.

[Lisa Golightly]

He feels that the end of time is closing on us and that I should be concerned about my salvation in thinking these ridiculuous ideas of a sex change.

A sex change is my salvation...

[Sharon]

I understand your pastor's feelings, I'm simply playing devil's advocate. In my opinion he doesn't understand transsexuality and is unqualified to tell you that you are wrong.

[nik12345]

every pastor who has ever lived wants to believe it's the end of times... that way they can get to heaven, like, next week. the country is also going to hell in a handbasket or something :-)

sounds like your pastor doesn't want to believe trannies are legitimate. have you considered looking for a pastor who's more concerned about your actions than what you wear?

[GypsyKaren]

Priests should worry about all of the child rapist priests that are out there and can the holier than thou bullshit, the days of dishing out the standard lines died a long time ago.

Karen :wheelchair:

[Nessa88]

Go atheist like me. then you don't have to put up or tolerate pastors at all. It was actually my cross dressing which contributed to me turning AGAINST Christianity.

[GaleWarning]

Rayne1 - read Acts 9: 26 - 40.
That Ethiopean eunuch was chosen by God to go back to his home country and start the Coptic church.
Also, you can point out to your pastor that John 3:16 is fully inclusive, and only asks that someone like you believes that Jesus is your saviour, for you to receive eternal life.
That's it! There are no other conditions.

[josephine69]

Rayne1 - read Acts 9: 26 - 40.
That Ethiopean eunuch was chosen by God to go back to his home country and start the Coptic church.
Also, you can point out to your pastor that John 3:16 is fully inclusive, and only asks that someone like you believes that Jesus is your saviour, for you to receive eternal life.
That's it! There are no other conditions.

Hear Hear, too true!

[Suzy Harrison]

Priests should worry about all of the child rapist priests that are out there and can the holier than thou bullshit, the days of dishing out the standard lines died a long time ago.

Karen :wheelchair:


I agree 100% - our life can be hard enough without Priests telling us their version of right and wrong

[Linda Z]

You can think for your self. Do so.

[Dressing Jill]

Well another church domination by fear. He should rethink the end times, and do some research on how and why the christian church was started. It was not to save your soul. I have done much research on this subject and it will enlighted you to know how and why.

You do what your soul and spirit lead you to do. That is what god whats you to do.

[RobynB]

How did Rayne1 use of the word pastor, which could be any denomination, become priest, which is usually Catholic or Episcopal?

[Nicki B]

Rayne - for some counter arguments, have a look at The Gender Tree (http://www.gendertree.com/)? :)

And, if he quotes Deut 22.5 at you - ask him if the shirt he's wearing is really 100% cotton? :D


How does he feel about cis-women wearing pants? :rolleyes:

[molly_maguire]

How did Rayne1 use of the word pastor, which could be any denomination, become priest, which is usually Catholic or Episcopal?

And then make the leap that priests are child rapists by tarring them with that brush. Last time I looked, the clergy has not monopolized that filth.

Methinks that some who howl the most against prejudices have now laid bare theirs for all to see.

[GypsyKaren]

How did Rayne1 use of the word pastor, which could be any denomination, become priest, which is usually Catholic or Episcopal?

And you're splitting hairs.


And then make the leap that priests are child rapists by tarring them with that brush. Last time I looked, the clergy has not monopolized that filth.

Well, gee whiz, how could anyone make the assumption that there's a problem in the churches from priests/pastors/whatever you choose to call them, sexually molesting and raping little children? I don't know how such an idea could have possibly popped into my head!


Methinks that some who howl the most against prejudices have now laid bare theirs for all to see.

Methinks that you should go put something in the collection plate, I imagine their defense funds are running low.

Karen :wheelchair:

[Anna the Dub]

Is your Pastor a psychiatrist? If not, then what does he know about transsexualism? Honestly, the answer is nothing. Personally, I have no time whatsoever for religion in any form, but I accept that some people find it gives them great comfort. However, all pastors, priests, vicars, imams or whatever they are called, are just human beings, with the same prejudices and dislikes as everybody else has. They may think they are a representative of God, but let's be honest, they really are not, they are chosen by other men or committees, and not always for the most altruistic of reasons. If you are religious, and do not harm anyone, you try to do good things, and so on, why should you be condemned for having what is in fact a medical condition? These ill informed religious people, who think their pronouncements are gospel, really get my goat.

[Dana Lane]

Religion is probably the single most dangerous thing on this planet. I feel for people that have to deal with their own lives and having to mix religion in with it. I used to be religious and experienced all the guilty feelings of being human.

[molly_maguire]

And you're splitting hairs.



Well, gee whiz, how could anyone make the assumption that there's a problem in the churches from priests/pastors/whatever you choose to call them, sexually molesting and raping little children? I don't know how such an idea could have possibly popped into my head!



Methinks that you should go put something in the collection plate, I imagine their defense funds are running low.

Karen :wheelchair:

Here's why - because that belief of yours is no different from some hayseed what thinks all crossdressers are homosexual because he watches RuPaul's Drag Race.

I'm gobsmacked that I have to point this out to you.

Perhaps you ought to do some investigation into the incidence of child diddling in the clergy vis a vis society in general. That may clue you in that that despicable act knows no profession, race, or creed.

And that last comment is out of bounds, especially from a moderator who can't tolerate a single degree of heat when things turn political.

Why are you allowing and posting such commentary when it turns to religion?

[GypsyKaren]

#1. I'm entitled to have my own opinion

#2. If the crossdressing community ever pays out hundreds of billions of dollars for child molestation claims, then the hayseeds will be entitled to their opinion.

#3. I can take a lot of things, what I can't take is people who never deemed it necessary to come here to offer a single shred of help or support,but now come flocking here because they saw the word "religion" in a thread title on the main page.


And that's going to be an end to this back and forth, if anyone has a problem with me then take it to PM.

Karen :wheelchair:

[LeannL]

The point of this thread is to give advise WRT this sister's pastor but some have chosen to discuss the difficiencies of the human species.

First, most clergy have not been trained in gender issues and, given their position, are caught between a rock and a hard place when an issue like this comes up. For crying out loud, the medical community can't keep up with the rapidly evolving psycological and medical discoveries that are being made today! So why do we expect any given member of the clergy to get the answer right. When in doubt, they are likely to go conservative which means don't change anything. Rayne1, you will have to decide what to do: continue to educate or find a different, more comfortable spot. My friend Julie Nemecek had her story about her struggles with the church described in this Newsweek article two years ago: http://www.newsweek.com/id/34772/page/1

Now, WRT to the issue of clergy and their failings, all I can say is that our clergy is human and to act as if they are not is to not understand the human condition. Should they do better than the common man/woman? We should expect so but we cannot condem them as a group when one fails. My brother-in-law was molested by a family member. Should I condem his whole family? Of course not. Should we have expected the church organizations (not just the Catholic Church BTW) to have reacted differently? Yes but we don't know why they did what they did. Was it out of (mistaken?) belief that we must work towards rehabilitation and do the religously mandated forgiveness or was it CYA? I don't know. By the same token, my brother-in-law's family covered up the abuse and I suspect most families would have at least started out that way 20 or 30 years ago when all of this happened. Remember, it is unfair to judge actions of the past based upon today's knowledge if it has changed as much as it has.

My :2c:

Leann

[Sharon]

Please, let's try to contribute without flaming anyone or making derogatory statements about one another's beliefs.

[Staciej]

Religion oh how great and confusing all in one. They make no sence God hates you if you are t-girl or boy ,gay,lesbian, and etc. Whatever we are were happy and god want's us happy anyway we can to do it that is a good choice and doesn't harm others. Devil satan whatever you call him doesn't want that and hates it that you are happy and have love in youre life.

So how they explain that don't,won't,can't. Be who you are or wish to be. It's never to late to change! And god will never hate you for wanting to do the right thang to help you love yourself. And others that is all god want's and gave us meds and doctors the knowleg to change our bodies to match or mind also.If god din't want us to change they wouldn't have knowlege to do so.

[Veronica_Jean]

Excuse me for a moment Rayne1,



Here's why - because that belief of yours is no different from some hayseed what thinks all crossdressers are homosexual because he watches RuPaul's Drag Race.

I'm gobsmacked that I have to point this out to you.

Perhaps you ought to do some investigation into the incidence of child diddling in the clergy vis a vis society in general. That may clue you in that that despicable act knows no profession, race, or creed.

And that last comment is out of bounds, especially from a moderator who can't tolerate a single degree of heat when things turn political.

Why are you allowing and posting such commentary when it turns to religion?


Well apparently you missed the big incident of child molestation by catholic priests that happened here in the states. Particularly with male priests molesting young children that were also male. The the church would simply move them to another district and cover up the acts.

Anyone making broad sweeping comments is of course doing exactly that. Geez, this IS an issue about a pastor taking a position about a controversial subject.


Rayne1,

I know there are many specific religous sects that have very strong belief as to what is and is not proper. I was raised Baptist and saw this first hand for many years. My problem with is as was well pointed out above, is the New Testament creates a level of criteria that is far below that of most churches "You must accept Jesus as your personal savior", just as happened to the criminal on the cross.

What is important is how you reconcile your belief to your transition. You may find yourself in a position where you are forced to worship elsewhere. There are many churches that embrace all types of human interaction and living circumstances.

Do not let his opinion of what constitutes an abomination influence how you see yourself, and what you must do to live your life correctly. That is between you and God.

good luck,

Veronica

[Karen564]

Well apparently you missed the big incident of child molestation by catholic priests that happened here in the states. Particularly with male priests molesting young children that were also male. The the church would simply move them to another district and cover up the acts.



Yes, not only did that happen, but it happened in my very own parish!!!!!!, and two of my friends that were alter boys were molested, and quite possibly even myself, since I have a blackout of a particular time with this same priest, and then another classmate (also an alter boy) that lived two blocks down the road from me not only was molested, but also murdered by this monster, but they could never prove it because so much time had passed. The church just happened to send him far away to the west coast after the murder, only to find out years later he was molesting more boys over there too..:sad:
And to top it off, the head bishop of our diocese, the same that sent our monster priest away was later found out to also be a child molester many years later that also liked little boys, so it appears that they all covered each others backs..

[Melissa A.]

Perhaps you ought to do some investigation into the incidence of child diddling in the clergy vis a vis society in general. That may clue you in that that despicable act knows no profession, race, or creed.

I think most know this. But perhaps the feelings of special disdain are based on a little more. Like shameless, naked hypocrisy. Not to mention ,very likely, previous complicity all over the place, in the form of coverups and turning a blind eye. And that is where you get away from just weak individuals and into institutionalised sleaziness. Are we allowed to get even more outraged than outraged when it's those many turn to for guidance? Sure. Why not?

Hugs,

Melissa:)

[GaleWarning]

ENOUGH NOW!!!! (I deleted the first explative that I wrote down).

Why is it that you people fail to understand that rapes, child molestation and the like are committed by people from all walks of life.

The reason why there is such heated adverse reaction when clergy and teachers commit such crimes is mainly because it is felt that people who are in such custodial positions ought to be protecting and nurturing their charges, not abusing them.

Another thing ... I used to be like most of you, thinking that the church should be judged by my perception of the acts of its clergy. As I grew in the knowledge of my faith, I slowly began to realise that Christ's ideal is what we are striving to attain and that people of the faith will never be great role models. Oh, there are exceptions ... Mother Theresa and Bishop Desmond Tutu spring to mind ... but always, Christians, even they, will fall short of the glory of God and always there will be non-believers waiting eagerly to pounce.

I am not defending anyone who abuses children or adults (male or female). I am saying that the perception that the Church is defiled by the actions of a few is strange and untrue.

If that were true, then the teaching profession, the medical profession, ... the factory workers association, even the prostitutes collective would be equally tainted by such abusive action by relatively few of it's members.

Rayne1 wanted to know how to tackle his pastor's non-acceptance of him as an individual in his parish.

Only a handful of replies have addressed his/her request.

The rest has been rubbish and has no place on this thread.

[GypsyKaren]

All I'm suggesting is for churches to clean up their own houses instead of looking down on others and telling them how to live their lives and judging them for being "wrong", but since we live in a society where it's easier to shoot the messenger, let's put an end to any anti-religion talk in this thread.

Karen :wheelchair:

[Karen564]

Sorry Rayne,
I didn't mean to get sidetracked here..

And I have no solution or answer for you on how to persuade your pastor into accepting you as transgendered...

But I dont believe that quoting scripture as suggested will change his own personal views on the subject.....

Good luck..

[Melissa A.]

You can think for your self. Do so.

Rayne,

I too, was guilty of geting off topic, and I apologise to you and the others. I think the above quote is pretty much to the point, though. You can choose to believe whatever you want to. To have religious faith or not. To seek guidance from certain people or groups over others is also something you are free to do. You aren't going to find affirmation everywhere you turn. I hope you find the strength and peace to be comfortable with who you are, all on your own, I really do.

However...


ENOUGH NOW!!!!.....Why is it that you people fail to understand that rapes, child molestation and the like are committed by people from all walks of life.
The reason why there is such heated adverse reaction when clergy and teachers commit such crimes is mainly because it is felt that people who are in such custodial positions ought to be protecting and nurturing their charges, not abusing them.

...Who's "you people"? I think I just said pretty much exactly that. (Look up, just 4 posts away). I do understand that hardly every religious officer is a child molester, and that most believers are not Fred Phelps. Most non-believers are happy to leave you alone. The only thing I eagerly pounce on is a shoe sale.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

[Jenny Brown]

For starters, the OP didn't state what denomination the church or pastor was, unless I missed it. Some churches are stricter than others. But it's pretty much a given that most (I said most - not all) churches/denomination won't understand or condone anything TS. http://www.gendertree.com/Wecoming%20Churches.htm
Does God make mistakes? I'm not about to dig into that can of worms. :doh:

[GaleWarning]

Great link, Jenny!
Hopefully, Rayne1 and his/her pastor will find it extremely informative.

[Rayne1]

I didn't want to be a church basher. And I didn't believe that they would understand but that I was trying to be open about my transsexualism to the church and let fall where it will.


Sorry Rayne,
I didn't mean to get sidetracked here..

And I have no solution or answer for you on how to persuade your pastor into accepting you as transgendered...

But I dont believe that quoting scripture as suggested will change his own personal views on the subject.....

Good luck..

[morgan pure]

Time to get another pastor. Don't worry, they're a dime a dozen.

[Karen564]

I didn't want to be a church basher. And I didn't believe that they would understand but that I was trying to be open about my transsexualism to the church and let fall where it will.

I know that's not how you intended this to turn out, because you do sound like a person of faith, and one does not just turn away from it..You were completely open & honest with your pastor, and found out he did not approve of your condition, just as there are many others that feel the same way as he does.. & his response is quite typical..
But it does never the less erk me when I hear of this kind of thinking coming from any man of the cloth, because to me, it sounds like it's from the dark ages.. and believe it's more of a personal view of theirs, as they twist & interpret the Bible to suit their own way of thinking.. It's not in the ten commandments, so the way I see it, the rest is erelevant & up for interpretation..

I hope no one interrupted my earlier post as bashing, because I did not do that at all. All I said was what happened in my own parish and I wouldn't condemn an entire religion because of the perverted acts of a few..

But Gypsy Karen is 100% correct in saying that the hierarchy of certain faiths need to get their own houses in order 1st before they go proclaiming what is right or wrong onto others..

God gave me a woman's brain, and what I'm doing with it is between me and God himself only, no one else..

[Rayne1]

I kind of expected the pastor to respond in the way he did, because of the prejudices in the world. This is not the best news he would like to have heard from me; and the first reaction was of shock, disbelief, and denial. I tried to explain our perspective of life and hoped he would be enlighted and maybe understand a little more where I was coming from.

I am sure many have been hurt by religions and they vented their frustrations here in this posting. I was not accusing anyone. I just did not feel that I should identify the religion to prejudice anyone from ever trying to attend any church of their choice because of this one incident I encountered.



I know that's not how you intended this to turn out, because you do sound like a person of faith, and one does not just turn away from it..You were completely open & honest with your pastor, and found out he did not approve of your condition, just as there are many others that feel the same way as he does.. & his response is quite typical..
But it does never the less erk me when I hear of this kind of thinking coming from any man of the cloth, because to me, it sounds like it's from the dark ages.. and believe it's more of a personal view of theirs, as they twist & interpret the Bible to suit their own way of thinking.. It's not in the ten commandments, so the way I see it, the rest is erelevant & up for interpretation..

I hope no one interrupted my earlier post as bashing, because I did not do that at all. All I said was what happened in my own parish and I wouldn't condemn an entire religion because of the perverted acts of a few..

But Gypsy Karen is 100% correct in saying that the hierarchy of certain faiths need to get their own houses in order 1st before they go proclaiming what is right or wrong onto others..

God gave me a woman's brain, and what I'm doing with it is between me and God himself only, no one else..

[celtic.blue.eyes]

For the moment, let's set aside you pastor's personal and religious beliefs.

If your pastor had any worth, he would not have asked that you tell no one else in the congregation and have you pray. Instead, he would have asked you if it was OK for him to tell the congregation, so that they may all pray for you!

Rather than help what he perceives as a poor lost soul, he wants to sweep you under the rug in the hopes you will just go away. Before leaving his church, I would certainly tell him, in a constructive way, where and how he failed.

[kellycan27]

I am a catholic, and I go to church every Sunday. God and I have an understanding. I will live my life as a good christian,but I won't subscribe to some of the BS that the Catholic church preaches. It's working so far. I am happy, and God seems to be happy with me.

[jennCD]

When you stop worrying about God and all that guilt and fire and sin and damnation business, you'll find the world to be a much easier place to live in....

:)
jenn

[GaleWarning]

There is a good reason, Jenn, why suicide rates amongst Catholics are the lowest in the world.

[Lisa Golightly]

I am sure many have been hurt by religions and they vented their frustrations here in this posting. I was not accusing anyone. I just did not feel that I should identify the religion to prejudice anyone from ever trying to attend any church of their choice because of this one incident I encountered.

I don't go to church... God doesn't need me in a church... I kind of have my moments under the stars when it's still and quiet... Actually I sit in the garden where my Father died... I never quite know which I'm thinking of as I ponder... but I don't think it really matters... I've always known the answers to my doubts in my own heart...

[Dana Lane]

When you stop worrying about God and all that guilt and fire and sin and damnation business, you'll find the world to be a much easier place to live in....

:)
jenn

This is a true statement. It is liberating and exhilarating.

[Cindi Johnson]

How many Christian angels fit on the head of a pin? How many Muslim virgins await the suicide bomber in Paradise? How many Christians and Muslims burn in Hell today because their God created them transgendered?

We can argue all day every day about what God wants us to do and be, and NEVER reach agreement. Why? Because our efforts rest upon a false premise.

Maybe there’s nothing wrong with using religion to add a sense of fullness to our lives. After all, it often does wonders for a person’s social life and definitely is useful in stroking one’s ego. But before I allow “God” (or even worse, some “holy man” who supposedly knows this “God” better than I ever could) the authority to allow or forbid my crossdressing, my HRT, and even my most private thoughts, I demand some kind of proof of His existence. And guess what? There is NONE!

Cindi Johnson

[Sharon]

I refuse to accept that we are mistakes and must conform to standards proscribed by anyone. If there is a God, I would like to think that He created us (transsexuals) the way we are for a reason, just as he created so-called normal folk for their own purpose. You have to admit, it can build character. :)

[Lisa Golightly]

You have to admit, it can build character. :)

Hell yeah! The personality I am is a product of my transsexuality... My personal struggle was a hell of a journey and I think it made me quite a nice person in the end. :battingeyelashes:

[Suzy Harrison]

I'll tell you what:

The two subjects on this forum that causes the most arguments:

(1) Religion
(2) US Gun Laws

One day I'll start a post about priests owing guns - and then take cover !

:hugs: Suze

[MJ]

I refuse to accept that we are mistakes and must conform to standards proscribed by anyone. If there is a God, I would like to think that He created us (transsexuals) the way we are for a reason, just as he created so-called normal folk for their own purpose. You have to admit, it can build character. :)

Who cares.... in this big world i can find good wonderful accepting caring people .

yes there are some jack asses out there i prefer the good ones who can respect another human being regardless of race creed colour of there skin or gender be it real at birth or not. we all have character building days.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Rayne

Let's all agree that churches and religions are much less than perfect...and leave it at that...i bet that lots of folks prone to terrible thoughts look to religion if not priesthood to escape those thoughts and find no solace.

I'm sorry for you that you have to go through this...religious intolerance is age old and will likely never go away....your pastor may truly have your best interests at heart but he truly doesnt understand anything about what you are going through...and although he (and perhaps you) can rely on faith that there is a god and that god loves us , I choose to beleive that god made me just the way I am and that since as we all know, god DOESNT make mistakes....there you have it...(insert fancy latin words for the proof is self evident)

my mom is very very religious and says she prays for me!!! she says she knows god loves me like every person on earth....once i said that ts folks are very marginalized in the world and her response was blessed are the meek...(no making fun of my mom!!!!!!)

:2c:

[Sejd]

It hurts to be turned down by anyone who you consider to be your spiritual guide. The fact is though, that Christian Theology is based on a believe system which is 2000 years old and which seeks to align itself with the thinking of people of that long past millennium. Maybe it is time for you to move on to more timely spiritual thinking people who will listen to you and understand. I have heard that Unity Church is pretty understanding, as well as the Unitarians if you feel you need to be in a religious organization. Maybe you should just accept yourself as you are, cause I'm sure that if anyone "out there" loves us, it's probably a very generous love.
Good luck
Sejd

[noeleena]

Hi ..Rayne. I.m 61 & had 50 years of being involved with many church groups . most will be the same .. in thier thinking . most ..not all ..
11 years ago i came out . told jos i was a woman .. jos still goes to the elim church . i dont . 15 years ago i went two time s & said to jos i wont be going .. now just on a year i have been going to one in timaru . 1 / 2 hour up the road .. okay . remember i am a woman .. andro .. they talked about . what & how would they as a people . group deal with some one who is different .. come in . what would they do ....... giggile .... me ... this was talked about some months before . i go every were to meet preople so i have a very good idear of how people think . i mix with about 2000 people yes face to face how am i accepted . .
I am accepted in our edwardian group of 50 people manly women we have 6 men .. yes i dress in the 1900 to 1910 time frame . i am allso in other groups . both male & women .. the elim group i go with is no different . i know many now .. some tolerate me others are not sure . some are close .. some dont give a toss . the paster.s . two of . we have had a talk about who i am ..what i am ..why i am .. they deal with me as an other person .. i take our grand kid as well . i had thought of leaveing a short while ago because i thought i was not accepted . my close friend . we had a 2 odd hour talk on the phone . & many talks . over time . she said ....DONT . leave ... because if i go what happens when some one else comes in ... who is a trans . so ill stay .. point is i have intergrated in our communitys . thats acceptance .. may be not understood .. yet that takes time ..it takes time for people to addjust . if we just come & go like i was going to they will never know who we are. are we different yes . i am . & they know that . it.s not about wether our Lord accepts or not . that is a no brainer , the Lord accepts with out any ?????..... does man ..... ??. The Lord ...WILL .. go before .. if we follow . it.ll be sorted .. do we have to ??? all the time ...no ... hey i have many friends . all around the world ... if they can be my friends Then the Lord accepts them as well .is that so hard to get ... or has man not got the point yet ....okay i am a andro ... so look at all of creation. & look at whats different . man can not refute those that are different
..... quess who i have been following through my transtision. i think you get the point ..so if some one does not accept then leave that up to the Lord .. i am not religions or church.e yet i will have many friendships . & have fellow ship with people in many church.s . hey they are people ....like us ....okay ill concede may be not ... any way you know were i am coming from ...you know who to talk to ... oh yea if i ((passed )) looking like a woman ... no body would know me ...so thats why i am out there & showing people we are different . & can be a part of society. .........
...noeleena...

[Veronica_Jean]

I kind of expected the pastor to respond in the way he did, because of the prejudices in the world. This is not the best news he would like to have heard from me; and the first reaction was of shock, disbelief, and denial. I tried to explain our perspective of life and hoped he would be enlighted and maybe understand a little more where I was coming from.



Rayne,

You have chosen a difficult road when you hoped to provide information to enlighten your pastor. Despite the best efforts of many pastors they feel they are the shepherd leading the flock, and as such they must help each to conform to what is "right" rather than adapt to differing situations. Should you chose to remain throughout your transition, it will likely become more difficult over time. I specifically left the church I was attending many many years ago, due to the actions of one larger family that wanted to control things when they never participated otherwise.

You sound like you have made peace with your own faith and what you need to do to live your life. It is up to others if they chose to see you the same or as someone that needs their "help" to remove what is "wrong with you". It is that part I feel is a concern. Are you going to subject yourself to one or more situations where you are treated poorly because of what you know you must do to live.

History has proven that religion has been and continues to be a compelling reason for many to commit acts that otherwise they would condemn.

I wish you well on whatever path you choose.

Veronica

[morgan pure]

I know many Evangelical and "born again" Christians, and have always welcomed their prayers. They are devout and seek to emulate the compassion of Christ- being very accepting of "odd" people and NOT judging them, not praying for them to change, but to be blessed like everyone else.
I DO know one couple who think that all creation is evil and the province of Satan. They're not happy people. They do nothing wrong but always feel guilty.

Get another pastor. There are many churches that welcome gay and ts people. Unitarians and Friends try hard not to judge people.

Morgan

[alphanumeric]

Well, you could always convert to Judaism. They believe that god intentionally made all of creation imperfect so that we could make it right.

[morgan pure]

Another wonderful theme. How did gun laws get involved. Don't get me started on that. (I think all queens should be armed!).

Here's one. According to the Hindus, God is perfect, and perfect comes from perfect, therefore anything he creates is perfect. HE made you. HE doesn't make mistakes, he can't. Even God is subject to Law, not because He has to, but because He (or She) IS Law.

Are we allowed to discuss religion here? I've been barred from talking about religion in bars because the bartenders say that it leads to to many fights. That and politics.

Morgan

[Sharon]

Are we allowed to discuss religion here? I've been barred from talking about religion in bars because the bartenders say that it leads to to many fights. That and politics.


I do what I can to limit the arguements to a small uproar, but there's no avoiding the fact that religion touches us TSs as much as anyone else. And sometimes you just want to know what others who live similar lives think. After all, there are an awful lot of people who consider themselves upstanding (insert applicable faith or denomination here) who believe we are the embodiment of the devil himself and are on a fasttrack to hell. It is when people belittle other member's beliefs that I lose my patience and feel a need to step in and play admin.

And since I crashed and burned when I attempted to have a peaceful political section a few years ago, that topic is absolutely verboten now, at least in the open sections such as this.

[Bernadina]

Sharon:
No he is just saying that God created male and female and we should not change that. If I was created a morfidite that would be different. I told him that is the case with transsexuals they are created with one mind and a body of another. He does not agree with that. We are just confused people.
Rayne1

He feels that the end of time is closing on us and that I should be concerned about my salvation in thinking these ridiculuous ideas of a sex change.


Some people seem to forget that everyone, and yes that does include the messenger Jesus, had two parents, one male and one female. That means that everyone of us is part female and part male. Only to varying degrees.

While a lot of people are very much male and very much female, I suspect that a vast percentage of us are transgendered in some way.

Its just part of the natural law. Many societies in the past have embraced transgenderism and have often considered their transgendered members as having been given a special gift.

[Stargirl]

Look at Nature. Not just one kind of bird, bug or tree. Not only one type of waterway. People should certainly be varied. How horrible it would be if we were all alike ! I am amazed that certain religions can be so narrow. They seem to have a "cookie cutter" mentality. We are "supposed to" follow iron clad rules. Mind expansion, and life enhancement to certain "schools of thought" are only "allowed" within a box. Follow the rules...see the elders smile, and get a brownie Point from the all mighty. :heehee:

Repression never works. I brings a certain level of rebellion. Some people are not comfortable playing an ill suited role. Church should be a happy place. god/ nature should be viewed as friends, not judges, and adversaries. Gloomy is not a good mindset no matter what the scriptures say..in any book. If we are "chips off the old block" we should be expanding, not contracting. (whether we believe in evolution or creation, life is still rather amazing)

[Hope]

Ok, let me say, as a person who spent 4 years (well, ok 5) in college as an undergraduate, and another 4 in seminary getting a masters, and as a person who is a called and ordained (priest / pastor / minister - pick your favorite title) in the church of Christ... and as a person who has never molested anyone, or even wanted to, I have found most of this thread pretty bloody insulting and disturbing. But that was the point right? To insult and belittle those who have devoted their lives to helping and advocating for the poor and oppressed? Congratulations. Did a great job.

But that is not the point of this thread.


First obstacle so far.
I told my pastor about my transsexual transition and even gave him a explanation in printed form to help him understand. He didn't. "God made you the way you are as a male body and you should not be going against His design in changing your body to female". I tried to explain but there was no reasoning with him. He told me to pray about it and not ot tell anyone else in the congregation because of any possible problems it might bring up. I told him I would respect his wishes in not telling anyone else. I told him I had already thought this through thoroughly and was only correcting the outward portion like in morfidism. I told Him I am the same spiritual person I was before starting transition and there was nothing to think about. He thinks that there must be something wrong with my spiriutal connection with God or I would not be thinking that way. He feels I should give it all up even if I have to have surgery to reverse the effects of transition. I told him that was not going to happen. If he did not want me there I would find another place where they did not know me.

Rayne,

I'm sorry you had such a crummy experience with your pastor - but it was easily predictable. I am guessing, based on some of the vocabulary you have used, that you are a member of a church outside of the traditional main-line - which makes a negative reaction more predictable. Unfortunately the church moves SLOWLY. The church is often brought kicking and screaming into the previous century. American churches are no different than that. While ideally, if many of them were to read their own theology they would see that they should be places of welcome for all people - gay - strait - transgendered - banker - bank robbers - everyone. Unfortunately, somewhere somehow being a Christian in America became about being a good person, and a good American; and not about following Christ. And it happened WAY before W. got his grimy hooks into American politics.

But there are exceptions. There are churches that are much more welcoming, and are much more focused on mission than on politics or "righteousness." The Episcopal church, the UCC (depending upon the congregation) the ELCA, all come to mind. The MCC is extraordinarily welcoming to the GLBT community, in fact it was formed to serve that community, though it is less mission focused. Which isn't to say that you should necessarily change churches, but if you do decide to go that route, there are good choices to be had.

But about your pastor. You are unlikely to change you pastor's views - as unlikely as you are to change any person's views - by arguing with him and showing him how he is wrong. You could quote scripture all day, provide a wealth of interpretation, make every well thought out argument any one has ever come up with and you will still not change a person's mind about this. Because this isn't a logical issue. It's an emotional issue. Being transexual is for most people weird, icky, or at the very least outside the bounds of most people's experience. People for the most part don't like things that are weird or unusual - to say nothing of icky. If you were to hang out with your pastor, en femme, for a few hours a week for a year or so - and he were to find that even though you wear a dress, you are a pretty OK person - he would likely slowly, glacially change his views on transgender folks.

But that still doesn't mean that he is going to introduce you to the congregation. But WHY? Because ministry is, like all things humans are involved with, political. Despite what some folks like to believe, being a member of the clergy is not an easy gig, it doesn't pay well, and for the most part there is very little respect involved. Being a member of the clergy is excruciating, and it involves keeping the many factions in your congregation, if not happy - then at least satisfied. Is this the way it should be? Hell no. But no one consulted me when they organized the system. Putting lay people in charge was important when this system was in place - so now we have a HUGELY politicized system where the leaders are not allowed to lead ... don't get me started.

The point is this - Even if you were to convince your pastor that TG issues were no big deal - he would then have to convince the entire congregation of the same thing before he could support you. Which he can't do. He is completely without the resources to make that happen. Remember how much work it is going to be to convince him? How on earth is he ever going to convince the rest of the congregation? He isn't. They don't pay him to challenge them, or to lead them, they pay him to tell them what they already believe.

But it gets worse. There is a family in your congregation (at least one) who HATES your pastor. It has nothing to do with your pastor - they just hate any pastor. They have authority issues, or they think they know better, or whatever. The thing is - they are just WAITING for an excuse to call the bishop and complain. They are just WAITING for any reason to yammer around the church about what a lousy pastor your pastor is. They guy is already wearing a target - you want to give ammunition to that family that hates the pastor? Ask your pastor to support you with the rest of the congregation.

Is change in the church possible? Absolutely. We are melting the ice caps after all. But that is the speed of change we are talking about. Will be TG girls be welcome in your congregation? If it survives for the next 60 years or so - quite possibly. Will it happen soon enough to help you? I wouldn't bet on it. Do you want to be a part of the change? That is up to you. If it were me, I would find a church that is already more welcoming. There at least the pastor has a chance.

Ok - now that my blood pressure is up, I'm going to go see how my youth group is doing and see if I can get some of the young boys into a dress. 'Cause that is what we transsexual girls do right? Oh - wait, I mean that is what us members of the clergy do, right?

[AmandaM]

To answer the question, if you are TS cause of some psychological, sexual, or other issue then it is not true TS'ism. If you are TS cause you are a woman, then you should become a woman. But, don't become a woman cause of some weird sexual thing. Then it wouldn't be true femaleness. God, will know your motivations and that should tell you if you are doing it for the right reasons. To the point, it's between you and God. I am a Southern Baptist, and if I believe I am a woman, I feel it is no sin to make it real.

[GypsyKaren]

This thread is done.