Thanks for letting me know I don't pass

[wendy360]

I've been working on going out dressed. I like walking around dressed, but am still nervous about it. Anyway I went out last night around 10 for a walk around the neighborhood and as usual it was very enjoyable. When I got home I thought I would get up early and go for another walk. So I got up at 5 and put some makeup on and my forms. Put on a cute knee length blue and white skirt and a white top, thigh high stockings and a pair of blue sandals I just bought at pay less, and my wig. It was cool this morning so I grabbed a black leather jacket. While I was out I decided to be adventurous and stop at the local doughnut shop and pick up something. The gal at the wig store said that if this is who you are then people just need to accept it. Easier said than done. As I was approaching the doughnut shop I saw a pick up drive into the driveway and thought, great I guess it won't be empty at 6 in the morning. As I got closer I saw 2 men sitting having coffee. OK 3 men in a doughnut shop and a cross dresser. Do I really want to go there? I almost walked right on by and then I thought oh what the hell just do it. So I walked in and the lady behind the counter was nice and wished me a good morning. Then called for someone in the back to help her. An older man walks out asks me what I wanted and I gave him my order. As he was putting the doughnuts in the bag he says..."do you want anything else...SIR" OH thanks for noticing the wig, the breasts, the skirt, the nylons. I guess the only saving grace was that the 3 men didn't say a word. Maybe I'll try another doughnut shop next week.

[Veronica75]

So much for "the customer's always right". If that older guy is the owner or manager he should realize that, whatever his own prejudices, driving away business in this economy is just plain stupid. If I were you I'd avoid that donut shop forever, and tell others that they were very rude to you one time you went there (no need to elaborate) and they should stay away too.

[Phyliss]

..."do you want anything else...SIR"

Mental retort, "Yeah, ... How about you drop into a big hole, jerk"

Doncha just hate something like that?

[kay_jessica]

Wendy,

I don't think you have ever posted a pic of yourself so how could we let you know if you pass or not!

Kay

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Hi Wendy-

First of all, let me say I understand the feeling<big hug>, it's happened to me, in fact I think it has probably happened to nearly all of us at one time or another. Here's the deal, you probably already know this: some people are just jerks and a**holes, they can't help it, it's like a social handicap. Simply avoid them, for instance, like the other girls said, don't go to that shop anymore.

Speaking for myself, I know I don't pass. Most of the time people don't seem to notice or care, which I consider just as good as. The rest of them don't matter. Just be yourself and don't let them get to you. They're not worth the energy. Best of luck on your journey, girl.

****I was going to add this below Kate's post, but fwiw, I guess I will just toss it out here. Wendy, the first couple of sentences in your post seem to indicate that you haven't been out very much. Passing, or at least passing a little better, takes practice, but don't worry, you'll get better at it. It's not just about the clothes, the wig, the forms and the makeup, it's the intangible things that people cue in on that get us read. Things like gestures, mannerisms, body language, facial expressions, all of those and more are what people notice unconsciously and make them decide, girl, boy or ? . And oh yeah, almost forgot...the voice. The toughest one. You can look like a model, but if you open your mouth and guy comes out it kind of spoils the effect. Not being critical of you, maybe you were perfect and he happened to read you and was just a jerk about it.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[TxKimberly]

Yeah, there was a movie theater in Indy where the older lady selling the tickets always went out of her way to call me sir. Very annoying that!

[KateSpade83]

You should post your pics here for constructive criticism on passing!

[TGMarla]

Hmmm...there's a moron for every situation, I guess. Your life is not changed one iota just because donut man with closed mind can tell you're in drag. Screw him.

[DianneRoberts]

To really mess with him MAYBE the proper response would have been

"...I'm all set, no thank you...Ma'am"

[KaraChristine]

Hi Wendy, sorry you had to put up with Donut Shop Dude. It's easy to say "just ignore it" but I know from my own experience that it's so hard to put that into practice. Especially when you feel so great about yourself and the way you look, then someone makes sure to knock you down a bit.

For the record, I think all of us on this forum know how painful experiences like this can be. And most of us can probably vouch for the fact that it does eventually get easier. There will always be mean people who try to hurt us (whoever we are) but the sting and the pain and tears become less hurtful as time goes on.

It takes amazing amounts of courage and determination to leave the house dressed - you're single handedly taking on hundreds of years of social taboo and conditioning, doing something that the toughest macho men would be frightened to death of attempting. So you've already won the second you walk out that door - and anyone who doesn't give you their admiration and respect is an immature idiot in my opinion.

I've been living full time as female for 7 months now, back at work full time for 3 months, and this kind of stuff still happens almost once a day. I was walking by a group of guys yesterday in fact and they looked at me scornfully as I passed and I overheard one say, "I told you - look at how big it's hands are..." - the amazing thing was that it didn't hurt so much anymore. A few months ago I would have scampered home crying, but I just looked at them in the eye and smiled and kept walking. As you're out and about more you won't have to make the effort to ignore stuff, it will just end up hurting less and less and you'll realize that it's meaningless in the overall scheme of things.

Sorry about the long winded lecture but this is something I feel really strongly about and I think it's important to not let stuff like this force you back in that boring, stifling closet!! (well, except to pick out a new outfit!!).

[Rachel Morley]

Hi Wendy,

You know .. it "could" be that they're doing on purpose, and letting you know, that they "read" you ... but I tend to think that they think they're being polite! Think about it, they aren't part of the TG community, they don't deal with TG people on a regular everyday basis and they see this person in front of them that is giving off apparently more male signals than female ones, what do they do? .... answer: They be polite and not mention the clothes, act like they haven't noticed a single thing, and call you "sir" because they read that you're biologically male and that you're the customer. :doh:

I think this is about the regular public not knowing what to say or do when they encounter a person who doesn't fit into either of the two boxes "male" or "female". It's happened to me too and it's a bit crushing as you think to yourself "can't they see what I'm trying to say? (be?)" ... I think it just means that these people need to be educated in how to address a TG person.

If we get a new bartender at our River City Gems (http://www.rivercitygems.org/) TG socials who's never worked with a TG group before we always tell them that - "everyone here tonight is a lady" and to please address them as such. They're always happy to be guided on the etiquette. That's what this could be - ignorance.

[Christina Horton]

I have had something like that happen when I first started going out. I go to the future shop in drab and I wanted to go there dressed. So one gray sat morn, I went. I wad looking for a new tv DVD player they works on ac/dc current for my rig. I asked a SA but he did not know if they had them. He and I walked to another SA and he asked him ( here it comes) "do we have tv/dvd player for a truck. He...she is looking for one." He did not say it wrong to be mean , he changed it to she just as he said he. I did feel a little sad and knew I did not pass , but he did corcect him self and I feel good that he at lest called me she. So mine if not bad. Yours I would have tossed the food at his face and asked for my money back if the insalt. But that's me.

Keep you head up and keep going out. If you read some of my threads you might see why we don't need to pass to be happy.

[Joni Marie Cruz]

I do agree that sometimes it's simply a bit of confusion on the other person's part, like Christina had happen to her. I have had people correct themselves in midstride and call me ma'am or miss. Personally I don't mind the getting read, it's the deliberate discourtesy that upsets me.

However, there have been occasions when the other person looks me in the eye and puts that slight but definite emphasis on the word "Sir" along with that special little smirk that says, "You're not fooling me for one single second and I want to make sure you know it and that everyone else in earshot knows it, too." No benefit of the doubt there. And they are the ones who get a complaint to the management, or if they're in charge, the assurance that there won't be any repeat business from me or any other person I know.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[wendy360]

Thanks everyone for the incourageing words.
To Kay, I never said I could pass. I'm 6'5 and wear 2xl tops, I'm not fat I wear size 9 jeans but I have shoulders like a football player.
I just came home and had to blow off some steam. Thats the great thing about this forum, you can blow off some steam and get some possitive responses from the members.
I know I still have alot of work to do and may never pass100%, but I still enjoy dressing and going out and will continue to do it.
BTW I have a great pay less shoe store near me where the cashier is very acomadating and nice. I have not gone in dressed but it may be the next place that I would try.
Thanks again.

[Jolene]

I admire those of you who are brave enough to go out dressed. You carry the torch for the rest of us. :)

[KarenSusan]

To really mess with him MAYBE the proper response would have been

"...I'm all set, no thank you...Ma'am"

:yt: That would have been a GREAT response.:D

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Hi Wendy-

Well okay then, maybe it wasn't something intangible.<lol> But I still think you should be addressed according to how you're presenting yourself. Courtesy doesn't cost anything, from experience I can tell you the people at Payless will know how to behave.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[battybattybats]

Maybe you should post the address of this donut shop.

Then everyone from your area on the forum could mail them an empty bag from another donut shop to show the business they are not getting because of their bigotry?

Or at least know not to go there.

[TSchapes]

just don't call me late for dinner!

Sorry, couldn't help it.

I'm of the belief that it was an uninformed choice of words. I think the nice part is you weren't threatened in any way, then I would be upset. Keep in mind that I've been out and heard things like, "look at the fag", "yea let's beat up the fag!" So, in the grand scheme of things, I think you did OK!

I say uninformed because many people aren't familiar with our community and how to respond to us. I was talking to the manager of the Crowne Plaza Hotel where the Southern Comfort Conference is held, and he said they had mini-classes for the staff on how we wish to be treated, and a little bit about the community.

So education is needed, not sarcasm or snottiness (though I know how you feel). You could have said, "I prefer to be called ma'm."

-Tracy

[Annette_boy]

I would have said and I do not want these now either and left never to return and would consider if it were a large chain shop reportint them to corperate HQ but thats Just me. I bo not suffer fools and rude A@# H&%@s Lightly. you Go girl and be yourself you have every right to go wher you want wearing what you want
Hugs Annete

[Jessica Who]

Ah, ignorance. It comes in all shapes and sizes. Don't let it get you down, kudos on going on and being adventurous!!!

[Seamus_Jameson]

Wendy,

Don't let it get you down. The first time I got called ma'am while dressed, I stopped dead for several moments. When I got my composure back, I shoved my money in his hand (gas station). "I've got your money," he said, with that "dumb females" smirk, "What do you want me to do with it?" "Seven," I said shortly. "Okay, pump seven. Thank you." I turned and walked out without saying another word.

Basically, it could have been ignorance. I like giving people the benefit of the doubt. But you know when you're being mocked. Real men don't treat a woman rudely, no matter what she looks like. That's the only bit of advice I can give: if you don't know the feminine art of raising your voice (in pitch, not volume) and letting everyone know that *you* are outraged, learn it. At 6'5", there are plenty of situations where you'd be safe throwing a womanly tantrum and getting the treatment you deserve.

[kimmy p]

My wife once did that to a sister at a SCA event. He/she came no where near passing but was still dressed in her mid-evil finest. She was also was in very poor health and having a hard time walking. Even married to me my wife went over to her and said "Do you need any help my lord"? (We tried to talk forsoothly) :D She responded with a "No thank you, and it's My Lady". He was a little annoyed, but my wife was genuinely trying to be nice and didn't know. I like to play it safe, I call people by their clothing. It usually works out best. The guy may not have meant to be a jerk, but then again......

[MissConstrued]

I don't understand all the hubbub. You are a male, are you not?

What right do you have to demand anyone call you exactly what you like? Most people do not read minds. It's the height of arrogance to expect anything different.

[Jonianne]

I don't think a little bit of venting is anywhere near "the height of arrogance".

Wendy, I was in a situation almost exactly like yours a while back where when the owner (?) also came out to take my order in stead of the waitress. The only other customers who were in the restraunt got up and walked out without finishing their order. We talked for the 15 min waiting on my order and he was not disrespectful, but I did feel he wanted to blame me for the group walking out. I tried to be a good representative of cd'ers but it's hard when they think you cost them business. So just try to be understanding as much as possible and leave a positive impression if you can.

As far as being called "sir", most people don't know our protocol while we are dressed and I have noticed that since I wear my hair most of the time "femme", even in drab, people tend to make it a point to call me "sir", not out of disrespect, but it seems to me, they feel good about being able to figure out what gender I am and call me "correctly". It's like they are saying it with a "Yes!, I got it right!" expression.

I also know when they are intentionaly being disrespectful, like when some guy just started forcing a long, hysterical laugh while I passed by. What a jerk.

[Ralph]

So much for "the customer's always right". If that older guy is the owner or manager he should realize that, whatever his own prejudices, driving away business in this economy is just plain stupid.
OK, I'm lost here. How was he driving away business (or, as others have said, being a jerk)? Did he spit on your food, call you an insulting name, snicker as he gave you the meal?

Lighten up, Francis. How many of us took 20 years, 30, even 40 to figure out what gender we think we are, and you're expecting him to figure it out in 30 seconds?

Jonianne: The OP didn't come across as that arrogant - he... she... whatever... was just expressing disappointment at the whole scene. What got me was the followup comments with everyone dogpiling on with "what a jerk" and "driving away business" nonsense.

ralph

[gillian1968]

it "could" be that they're doing on purpose, and letting you know, that they "read" you ... but I tend to think that they think they're being polite!

Along the veins of the famous quote from Napoleon - Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence.

It's true that the general populace really doesn't know much about us (well, how could they, we barely know ourselves sometimes!). I would like to come up with a polite response that would gently let someone know the proper way to address me. Of course, many may not pick up on the subtlety, but at least I would have tried to help them.

Maybe I just lack imagination but nothing has ever come to mind.

-Gillian

[Jonianne]

.......Jonianne: The OP didn't come across as that arrogant - he... she... whatever... was just expressing disappointment at the whole scene.......

Ralph, I was responding to someone else's post that was calling the OP as having the "height of arrogance".

[LA CINDY LOVE]

Hi Wendy,

You know .. it "could" be that they're doing on purpose, and letting you know, that they "read" you ... but I tend to think that they think they're being polite! Think about it, they aren't part of the TG community, they don't deal with TG people on a regular everyday basis and they see this person in front of them that is giving off apparently more male signals than female ones, what do they do? .... answer: They be polite and not mention the clothes, act like they haven't noticed a single thing, and call you "sir" because they read that you're biologically male and that you're the customer. :doh:

I think this is about the regular public not knowing what to say or do when they encounter a person who doesn't fit into either of the two boxes "male" or "female". It's happened to me too and it's a bit crushing as you think to yourself "can't they see what I'm trying to say? (be?)" ... I think it just means that these people need to be educated in how to address a TG person.

If we get a new bartender at our River City Gems (http://www.rivercitygems.org/) TG socials who's never worked with a TG group before we always tell them that - "everyone here tonight is a lady" and to please address them as such. They're always happy to be guided on the etiquette. That's what this could be - ignorance.
When you walk out that front door dress you are NOT in Crossdresser.com....you are in the real world call society, there are No forum administrators walking around with you to make sure that people treat you right.

At 6'5 shoulders like a line backers is one thing ...... but going there nervous is not good at all, that is the one thing that will get you read all the time.....quick.

I did not hear you say that the man was rude to you, even thou he read you I feel that he was just being polite like Rachel said, you can not take everything that people say to heart......they just do not know how to say it right.

MissConstrude brings up a very good point.

Prejudices, ignorance, jerk, moron, bigotry ,mental retort....a**hole......it is amazing how we can judge others for just being them-self.......hey is that what they do to us.

LA CINDY LOVE

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Sorry, but if you refer to the original post, the word that the gentleman in question used is in caps, indicating that the word was specifically emphasized. Perhaps Wendy can clarify that, but to me the only reason for using undue emphasis is to put someone in their place. More to the point, why use any gender specific form of address at all? If they were uncertain what term to use, why not omit it completely rather than emphasize the word "SIR"?

Why not simply say, "Thanks for your business, have a great day. Next time try the maple bars." or something along those lines? For my money he was being intentionally rude and knew exactly what he was doing.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[sandra-leigh]

Nearly every cab driver that uses a gender-pronoun at all calls me "Sir", no matter how I am dressed -- and often before I've said a single word. "Where would you like to go, Sir"? Even when I'm tried extra-hard to look female. Very few of them have sounded like they were trying to make a "dig"... though I did get one a few weeks ago who tried several times to get me to say things... it felt like he was 95% sure I was male but wanted to get me to talk enough to confirm it through my voice... it wasn't even subtle.

The cab driver I had last night tried for conversation several times, even though he could see I was busy trying to put on my heels. I could barely understand what he was trying to say... what-ever it was was so far away from my internal state and my pop-culture experience that his paragraphs literally sounded like a foreign language.Then at the destination, he kept me, trying to talk me into arranging to have him drive me home afterwards. I got the impression that he was making a clumsy attempt to "pick me up". I don't know if he "read" me or not... probably did, since everyone else seems to.

I get called "M'am" very seldom. The only place that is good about it is the GLBT club that hosts our monthly meetings. (Well, there are a small number of other places that are good about it, a couple of restaurants that have dealt with us before.) If I'm gender-bending I don't mind, but if I've taken the trouble to Dress completely and I'm in heels and carrying a purse, getting called "Sir" is... well, it's a disappointment.

What I can say, though, is that when I visibly gender-bend, or dress completely, that even though many people "read" me in a fraction of a second, that there are an awful lot of people who are pleasant and completely welcoming and go out of their way to be nice to me, and very few people who are openly critical; I may not "pass" to very many people at all, and yet to the great majority of people, when I am cross-dressed, somehow I am completely "normal", as if it is the way I am "supposed to be".

[Xenia]

Well, you said this was an older guy....maybe his inner dialogue was along the lines of Geez, these crazy kids and their wacky fashions these days....this guy almost looks like a girl! I should call him "Ma'am" and embarrass him. No, no, that would be rude....just call him "Sir" like any other guy. These silly kids!

Then again, sure, he might've just been trying to be a jerk. Oh well. If you told me that I could go out dressed and the worst that would ever happen is that I'd get called "Sir" from time to time, I'd be strolling the aisles at Target tomorrow in the biggest, poofiest ballgown you could possibly imagine. :)

Good on you for having more cojones than I, and if there's anyone who 's got a problem with you, just let them choke on their own bile. :)

[Dr.Susan]

The reality is very very few pass or are convincing as women.

[Lorileah]

I have to agree with Rachel, I will assume it was ignorance on the server's part. It was spur of the moment and he probably really had not had contact with "our kind" before.

I really don't see what the OP's ability to pass had to do with anything (in regard to all those who want to see pictures). I have said before that in most cases I would not "pass" and look <-----. Passing is not the issue here. It is ignorance or arrogance. Which one was the man showing? Who knows. I hope ignorance because we can educate. Arrogance however is something else and karma will bite you.

[VickyMI]

Just to add my 2 cents

At 6'5" you won't pass sorry you are at the 99.8 percentile of female height and you will stand out. Does not matter how confident you are.

[Dita_B]

You could have said, "I prefer to be called ma'm."

-Tracy

I agree with Tracy and I certainly don't agree with all the aggressiveness in other posts...

It happened to me as well and I have made a point out of it to stop this kind of thing right in its tracks by saying: "Excuse me... when I dress like a woman, I prefer to be addressed as one"... This has always resulted in an apology from the offending person... In the discussion that follows, you can make a friend by telling him/her, now that you know that your cover is blown anyway, that it is very hard being a girl, but that you are doing the best you can... This is almost a guarantee to break the ice...

At least that is my experience...

:love:
Dita.

[msginaadoll]

Well when I went to the liquor store to get some pepermint schnaps fror a friend I was called a worse name. The store clerk had the nerve to refer to me as sweetheart! Not a Maaam or a sir just a deragatory term. How dare he refer to me as a "Sweetheart" Whats next will I be refered to as Honey , or Babe or Doll. Where will it all end!!!

[VeronicaMoonlit]

I don't understand all the hubbub. You are a male, are you not?

Yes, but that doesn't mean she wants to be addressed as one en femme. Let me tell you something, I live as a guy day to day and being addressed as "Sir" hurts every time, like a dagger. But I have to let it go. But if I was addressed as "Sir" en femme, I would be perturbed and annoyed to say the least. And if it was obviously done out of malice, with an emphasized "Sir", the person involved would find out just how cold and scornful I can be.



What right do you have to demand anyone call you exactly what you like? Most people do not read minds. It's the height of arrogance to expect anything different.

No, people can't read minds, but I since it is, after all the 21st freeking century, I'd expect them to have been paying attention and know at least this one basic rule:

"You address CD/TG/TS people as the gender their presenting as, it's polite."

We're not that uncommon for people to know that.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

[Hope]

An older man walks out asks me what I wanted and I gave him my order. As he was putting the doughnuts in the bag he says..."do you want anything else...SIR"

Seriously, don't take crap off of an adult working in a donut shop. If he is not the owner, then he is pathetic, and if he is the owner, then leaving the store without the donuts you had him pull from the case will get your message across in the only language he understands.

Him:"do you want anything else...SIR?"

Me: "Not from you." Then just the sound of my heels walking out of the door.

or: "What do you charge for a bit of respect?"

But then I think batty has an even better idea...

[MsJanessa]

It's obvious to Me that the salesclerk was making a "statement" that he did not approve---you were presenting yourself in femme mode and even the most dim people in the public sector would have the wit to address you in the feminine. I would chalk it up to the clerk being rude, ignorant or both and forget about it.

And BTW most of us don't pass all the time--although some may occasionally go unnoticed in a crowd or in certain types of venue, sooner or later even the most femme of us will be "read". It's no big deal--it kind of goes with the territory--I remember the biggest thrill I ever had was being all femmed up in a gay bar--one of the other patrons approached me and asked if I was a "real" women or a CD. It made my evening.

Finally I have to tell you one of the most attractive CDs I ever knew on a personal basis was your height---did she pass? Not really--Was she HOT?? very definatly. And one final thing--some of the posters above have suggested that you post a picture to tell whether you pass or not---if you feel like posting fine but you really can't tell from a photo whether you pass---I've seen dozens of pics which show a very femme person but once I met them it was clear given body height/weight and other factors that they were not passable--which is fine---just that you can't tell from a pic.

[carolinebrookes]

Sometimes, we (crossdressers), as a section of society, tend to get upset over a minor event such as being addressed as "Sir". I can't ever recall being called "sir" but if I were to be, then I'd probably just blush and never go to that store again.

In the bigger picture, it's a small thing, but to some of us it really is a big deal and some may become upset about it.

I tend to always try to see a nicer side to people and perhaps the sales clerk in this instance just didn't know how to handle the situation. Of course there is also the possibility that he might have been being rude, but when all said and done, if it really bothers you, let your feet do the talking and don't go back.
I doubt whether the clerk shall worry and neither should you. Don't let it stop you doing what you want to. For every piece of ignorance there is also a piece of understanding.

[Nicki B]

I think this is more likely to be ignorance than actice bigotry, as some have suggested - but you won't know until you push it further...:devil:


..."do you want anything else...SIR"

Mental retort, "Yeah, ... How about you drop into a big hole, jerk"

When it'ever happened to me in the past, my standard response was always 'Do you really think I go to the effort of dressing like this, to be called SIR??

I think we ALL need to confront such attitudes, and emphasise there is more in this world than cis-men and women? :)

Plus, if you act like a lady, IME you are far more likely to get treated like one.. Act hurt in a feminine way and just watch that male conditioning kick in... :gorgeous:

[gender_blender]

The vast majority of crossdressers can't pass... Hell, most people on HRT can't pass. I say to hell with passing and conformity. They're entirely overrated. I stopped caring what others thought of my attire long ago. Just wear whatever you want anytime you want.

[Veronica75]

Those who make the point about typical folk not knowing "CD ettiquette" make a good point, my own background of going out dressed was only in NYC where the culture is more enlightened, or at least more obsessed with not stepping on anyone's toes... in New York, if they didn't know whether to use "sir" or "ma'am" they'd just say, "So you want anything else?" and forget the pronoun for fear of an unpleasant reaction or, yes, driving away business.

Also, as others said, the delivery and attitude have to be taken into account, and no one who wasn't there has any idea of what that really was. Was the server just trying to be polite to a guy in a dress? Or did he look down his nose and sneer as he ridiculed someone different from himself? Who knows.


OK, I'm lost here. How was he driving away business (or, as others have said, being a jerk)? Did he spit on your food, call you an insulting name, snicker as he gave you the meal?

Lighten up, Francis. How many of us took 20 years, 30, even 40 to figure out what gender we think we are, and you're expecting him to figure it out in 30 seconds?

Jonianne: The OP didn't come across as that arrogant - he... she... whatever... was just expressing disappointment at the whole scene. What got me was the followup comments with everyone dogpiling on with "what a jerk" and "driving away business" nonsense.

ralph

[Melissa A.]

I don't understand all the hubbub. You are a male, are you not?

What right do you have to demand anyone call you exactly what you like? Most people do not read minds. It's the height of arrogance to expect anything different.

you ARE kidding, right??? "What right do you have to be adressed as you wish to be adressed?"??? That's EVERYONE'S right, sweetie. People can and do make mistakes, and some don't mean any harm. Especially those in retail businesses. They aren't there to give you affirmation, of course, but they do want your business, and insulting you purposely ain't the way to build repeat customers.

But back to the quote. I am sorry, but that is about the most backwards statement I have ever seen. I think you need to look up the meaning of arrogance. Asking to be addressed as you pretty obviously wish to be adressed is not asking alot of people. It doesnt ruin their day, or cost them anything. If ANYthing is arrogant, it's assuming you have any business going out of your way to insult someone because their existence somehow offends you.

Sheesh...
I'm dumbfounded, I really am.

Hugs,


Melissa:)

[battybattybats]

It's worth remembering that much of the gains Women, African Americans, Indiginous Australians and many others made came from the way they chose to respond directly to discrimination regarding shops and services. From where they could sit on the bus, drink at the pub or whether they got let into the swimming pool or how they were treated at them.

Whether public acts of defiance or court cases this is how others won rights and acceptance.

Regarding my previous suggestion, you could follow the 'kill them with kindness' option my Grandmother was fond of.

Get a bunch more CDs and TSs and make a point of regularly going in there dressed. No matter how rude he is. Behaving well and defying his rudeness with politeness but not meekness. The violence of good manners.

If he wasn't so happy serving you then make him less happy by going in again, and again. Eventually he may get over his problems, even become an ally. But even if not it's refusing to be driven away by his poor behaviour.

Filling his whole shop with CDs and TSs every last saturday for Sex and the City style girl-talk over coffee and donuts would be spectacular revenge would it not?

[Nicole Erin]

It is aggrivating as hell when someone goes out of their way to belittle us.
Of course after the incident you always think of all these good come-backs, sucks that in the heat of the moment they don't come to mind.


You should post your pics here for constructive criticism on passing!

Kate think about that -
Posting photos on a TG forum and asking if they pass. Especially when some of the posters on this forum have NO clue what the OP looks like at all, yet say "Oh you don't pass, most of us don't"
Yeah I made that mistake once - posting photos and asking about how I pass or whatever.

One would be better off covering themselves in fresh blood and walking into a lion's cage. A lot of TG have all these bad feelings and want everyone else to feel bad too... Asking TG's if anything passes is a bad idea.

[Melissa A.]

[QUOTE=Nicole Erin;1741728]It is aggrivating as hell when someone goes out of their way to belittle us.
Of course after the incident you always think of all these good come-backs, sucks that in the heat of the moment they don't come to mind.[QUOTE]


THINGS TO SAY WHEN YOU ARE MALICIOUSLY MIS-GENDERED

1. "Exactly what part of this told you I wish to be called sir?"
2. "Thank YOU, sir/ma'am" (whichever is wrong)
3. Look over your shoulder for the "sir"
4. "Thank you(name on tag), Where can I find the manager?"
5. HUH? YOU GET OFF WORK WHEN? YOU WANT TO MEET ME WHERE? (Loudly!)
6. Just smile politely and say, "That's ma'am/miss, please" but dont walk away-patiently wait for a response, looking them directly in the eyes. (always give someone a chance to do the right thing, or hang themselves!)

I strongly recomend #6, unless you are being treated exceptionally rudely. You are, after all, an ambassador for many others to come after you.

Hugs,

Melissa :)

[Kathleengurl]

....... he says..."do you want anything else...SIR" ..........

No Miss, I think you've had too much of my business already.

[Marie-Claire]

Thanks everyone for the incourageing words.
I'm 6'5 and wear 2xl tops, I'm not fat I wear size 9 jeans . . .

Size 9 jeans would seem to be out of proportion to 2X tops. I wonder if hip pads would make any difference.
Good for you for perseverance.
:)
Marie-Claire

[susandrea]

You have to watch this (some swearing):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl0PZDGOgoM&feature=PlayList&p=5608FEF7EFF1F0AA&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1

Eddie has probably had to explain himself more than any transvestite (he's British, and 'transvestite' is used there more than crossdresser) in the world.

His attitude is to be calm and groovy -- even humorous -- about it, setting up a 'mood' that nearly requires the 'unwashed' person he encounters to relax and at least be tolerant.

Of course being famous helps, but like I said, he's been through this so often, especially since he doesn't wear a wig.

On the other hand, he's had his share of discouraging situations, especially when it comes to his acting. He finds that whenever a producer is told about him they automatically assume he's some kind of 'character', like Dame Edna.

And lately, many of his fans keep asking him why he hasn't been 'femme' lately and he has to keep explaining that now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bavmKncLk8

[MissConstrued]

you ARE kidding, right??? "What right do you have to be adressed as you wish to be adressed?"??? That's EVERYONE'S right, sweetie.

I'm sorry, where is that one in the Bill of Rights?

I would really like to know where some of you get off, expecting to be treated with respect everywhere you go, just because you're somehow f***ing special. It's nice when it happens; folks should treat others with respect; and it would certainly make a nicer society. But there's no law.

Maybe some people think us freaks, and wish to indicate so. Do they not have a right to their own opinions? Do they not have the same right to free speech as you? (At least, while it lasts...)

When it comes to retail, of course being rude to customers is stupid. But a proprietor may treat customers however he pleases (with the exceptions as regards the ADA), and it's entirely up to YOU at that point how you'll react to it.



Asking to be addressed as you pretty obviously wish to be adressed is not asking alot of people. It doesnt ruin their day, or cost them anything.

Obvious to you, maybe. Put yourself in someone else's shoes for a change. Hmm... I see a man in a dress. Man is the operative term. A man in a dress is a man, not a woman. Now what do you do? Once you have established that your customer is male, "sir" IS linguistically correct, like it or not. The wise retail minion would use neither if he wasn't sure.

Secondly, we're not all so hung up on pronouns. I don't care what someone calls me. On the same night, I'll get sir, miss, and ma'am. The former appear to have better eyesight, or have consumed less alcohol. How does it affect my life in the slightest? So there wouldn't be a universal proper way to address a CD customer anyway.

So a retail minion directs a snide remark your way. Welcome to Earth. Fat people get it. Teenagers. Goths. Yuppies. Mexicans. You're not special.

And yes, to go about with the expectation that you should be addressed in a certain way, and to expect everyone to know it -- by extension, expecting to NOT be offended -- is arrogant. Haughty. False sense of entitlement. Clear enough?

[Seamus_Jameson]

I don't want to get involved in a flame-war here; I do think it was a pretty shitty thing to have happen, even if the guy didn't mean to be rude. I'm just going to add a thought to MissConstrued's post.

If a proprietor said "sir" every time he saw a woman wearing men's clothes, he would insult a lot of women and drive away business. For that reason alone, I am unlikely to ever be called sir in any establishment. Yes, it upsets me and I can chose to correct individuals. . . but I can't change the world. It would wear me to threads if I tried. Simplest solution: don't go back. Or, next time, tell him politely, "it's ma'am". Just don't waste time with jerks.

My two cents.

[Melissa A.]

I'm sorry, where is that one in the Bill of Rights?

I would really like to know where some of you get off, expecting to be treated with respect everywhere you go, just because you're somehow f***ing special. It's nice when it happens; folks should treat others with respect; and it would certainly make a nicer society. But there's no law.

Maybe some people think us freaks, and wish to indicate so. Do they not have a right to their own opinions? Do they not have the same right to free speech as you? (At least, while it lasts...)

When it comes to retail, of course being rude to customers is stupid. But a proprietor may treat customers however he pleases (with the exceptions as regards the ADA), and it's entirely up to YOU at that point how you'll react to it.




Obvious to you, maybe. Put yourself in someone else's shoes for a change. Hmm... I see a man in a dress. Man is the operative term. A man in a dress is a man, not a woman. Now what do you do? Once you have established that your customer is male, "sir" IS linguistically correct, like it or not. The wise retail minion would use neither if he wasn't sure.

Secondly, we're not all so hung up on pronouns. I don't care what someone calls me. On the same night, I'll get sir, miss, and ma'am. The former appear to have better eyesight, or have consumed less alcohol. How does it affect my life in the slightest? So there wouldn't be a universal proper way to address a CD customer anyway.

So a retail minion directs a snide remark your way. Welcome to Earth. Fat people get it. Teenagers. Goths. Yuppies. Mexicans. You're not special.

And yes, to go about with the expectation that you should be addressed in a certain way, and to expect everyone to know it -- by extension, expecting to NOT be offended -- is arrogant. Haughty. False sense of entitlement. Clear enough?

Clear, and completely false. I didnt mean to give you the idea we were talking about laws, here, or the Constitution. We were, as far as I can tell, talking about basic, decent civility. About living in a society where certain rules and codes regarding respect and citizenship still, believe it or not, do apply.

I AM entitled to expect to be treated a certain way, so long as I conduct myself that way towards others. YES, I DO get to decide, not what people call me behind my back, but how they adress me. That isnt arrogance. not in any universe, except perhaps, the alternate one you seem to be inhabiting. That's giving and recieving a minimum amount of respect. Something most people still try to do in their day-to-day lives. Not because I'm "special". Or haughty. Or arrogant. The only thing I feel entitled to is the same decency and respect I give. Having a legal right to do anything doesn't make it right. You actually are going to stand there and say about name-callers, bigots, immature cat-callers- that we should all just get used to it??? And that if I don't, I think of myself as special?? So we should all simply get out of the way of these people because they have a "right to their opinions"? That's not what we do in a civilised society. But seriously, even I wouldnt put people like that in the same class as someone who would try to demean me by intentionally calling me by the obviously wrong pronoun, but I don't have to quietly tolerate any of them.

No one was talking about life sentences for being intentionally insulting. And I, for one, am not so delicate as to let it scar me. Nor do I whine about it. But is said person wrong? Rude? Acting ignorant and bigoted? You betcha. And THAT's what we were talking about. If they persist after I politely correct them,(and I will), that's them. It says alot more about them than it does me.

hugs,

Melissa:)

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Do you honestly think that if something is not enumerated specifically in the Constitution and/or the Bill of Rights, or by extension, in the Constitution of any one of the several states then somehow there's no reasonable expectation of it? How silly. Besides that, how was the original post somehow extended to be a violation of any law? No one expects that. Silly again. All that was talked about was someone expecting NOT to be treated with intentional rudeness and people defending that point of view.

-Joni Mari



I'm sorry, where is that one in the Bill of Rights?

I would really like to know where some of you get off, expecting to be treated with respect everywhere you go, just because you're somehow f***ing special. It's nice when it happens; folks should treat others with respect; and it would certainly make a nicer society. But there's no law.

Maybe some people think us freaks, and wish to indicate so. Do they not have a right to their own opinions? Do they not have the same right to free speech as you? (At least, while it lasts...)

When it comes to retail, of course being rude to customers is stupid. But a proprietor may treat customers however he pleases (with the exceptions as regards the ADA), and it's entirely up to YOU at that point how you'll react to it.




Obvious to you, maybe. Put yourself in someone else's shoes for a change. Hmm... I see a man in a dress. Man is the operative term. A man in a dress is a man, not a woman. Now what do you do? Once you have established that your customer is male, "sir" IS linguistically correct, like it or not. The wise retail minion would use neither if he wasn't sure.

Secondly, we're not all so hung up on pronouns. I don't care what someone calls me. On the same night, I'll get sir, miss, and ma'am. The former appear to have better eyesight, or have consumed less alcohol. How does it affect my life in the slightest? So there wouldn't be a universal proper way to address a CD customer anyway.

So a retail minion directs a snide remark your way. Welcome to Earth. Fat people get it. Teenagers. Goths. Yuppies. Mexicans. You're not special.

And yes, to go about with the expectation that you should be addressed in a certain way, and to expect everyone to know it -- by extension, expecting to NOT be offended -- is arrogant. Haughty. False sense of entitlement. Clear enough?

[susandrea]

Personally, I believe that 'ladylike' behavior should lead the way.

Behave like the person you want people to believe that you are.

Also, always remember that you are expressing yourself for your own enjoyment, and not for the benefit of others.

Today's society gets plenty of signals from sensationalist headlines (Tranny robs bank!) so anytime a person of transgender has a chance to gently educate someone for the better by being gracious, it should be considered a privilege. You are being given a chance to improve the world, even if it's only one small way at a time.

Crossdressers follow many other types of people who have been treated very badly in public situations, and it has been historically proven that being aggressive almost always backfires.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a340/susanxo/testuser5_may2007_magnum_am240507_1.jpg

Things do change for the better, but only through education and example.

[Nicki B]

Hmm... I see a man in a dress. Man is the operative term. A man in a dress is a man, not a woman.

Do you honestly believe there are only two possible options? So often your comments appear that way.. :sad:

[Melissa A.]

Personally, I believe that 'ladylike' behavior should lead the way.

Behave like the person you want people to believe that you are.

Also, always remember that you are expressing yourself for your own enjoyment, and not for the benefit of others.

Today's society gets plenty of signals from sensationalist headlines (Tranny robs bank!) so anytime a person of transgender has a chance to gently educate someone for the better by being gracious, it should be considered a privilege. You are being given a chance to improve the world, even if it's only one small way at a time.

Crossdressers follow many other types of people who have been treated very badly in public situations, and it has been historically proven that being aggressive almost always backfires.

Things do change for the better, but only through education and example.

I agree, completely. Always be polite. But correcting someone, in an intelligent, civilized way, can only help.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

[MissConstrued]

Do you honestly believe there are only two possible options? So often your comments appear that way.. :sad:

Check the previous sentence about putting yourself in someone else's shoes. Context.

[susandrea]

I agree, completely. Always be polite. But correcting someone, in an intelligent, civilized way, can only help.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

Yes, and if people ask dopey or even insulting questions, answer gently, maybe even with a bit of humor.

The nicer you are the faster you will win someone over, even shame them a bit. Changing someone's mind is very difficult, but it can be done.

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Sweetheart, I'm not sure where you were during the late 50's and all the thru the 60's and 70's and even now...but things didn't get changed by everyone being nice to each other.

Hugs...Joni Mari





Personally, I believe that 'ladylike' behavior should lead the way.

Behave like the person you want people to believe that you are.

Also, always remember that you are expressing yourself for your own enjoyment, and not for the benefit of others.

Today's society gets plenty of signals from sensationalist headlines (Tranny robs bank!) so anytime a person of transgender has a chance to gently educate someone for the better by being gracious, it should be considered a privilege. You are being given a chance to improve the world, even if it's only one small way at a time.

Crossdressers follow many other types of people who have been treated very badly in public situations, and it has been historically proven that being aggressive almost always backfires.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a340/susanxo/testuser5_may2007_magnum_am240507_1.jpg

Things do change for the better, but only through education and example.

[LA CINDY LOVE]

When you are out and about and feel or demand that you should be treated by the way you are dress is wishful thinking.......you are just going to get your feelings hurt.

You need to have a open mind when out and about and understand that society really knows very little about us and is just trying to understand us all.

Getting dress up and walking out your front door into society can be very scary, that is why passing is so important to so many, lets face it the better you pass the better you are going to get treated............sometimes.

LA CINDY LOVE

[susandrea]

Sweetheart, I'm not sure where you were during the late 50's and all the thru the 60's and 70's and even now...but things didn't get changed by everyone being nice to each other.

Hugs...Joni Mari

No, it happened through peaceful civil rights demonstrations that were often violently interrupted -- only to be followed by more peaceful ones. The riots that occurred were setbacks, not steps forward.

Remember Rosa Parks? She didn't scream or yell, just quietly demanded her rights.

http://www.grandtimes.com/rosa.html

In August 1994, Parks was attacked in her home by a young man who wanted money from her. Of the event, she writes, "I pray for this young man and the conditions in our country that have made him this way. Despite the violence and crime in our society, we should not let fear overwhelm us. We must remain strong."

Parks' belief in God and her religious convictions are at the core of everything she does. It is the overriding theme in her book and the message she hopes to impart: "I'd like for [readers] to know that I had a very spiritual background and that I believe in church and my faith and that has helped to give me the strength and courage to live as I did."

[Melissa A.]

Sweetheart, I'm not sure where you were during the late 50's and all the thru the 60's and 70's and even now...but things didn't get changed by everyone being nice to each other.

Hugs...Joni Mari

Ya pick your battles...I think that's what she was saying. There's a big difference between a Trans-rights rally (anger allowed) and correcting someone in an everyday social situation. In that instance you're representing others like you, like it or not. And politeness does go further in a situation like that, anyway.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

[Lorileah]

Nor do they have to be changed solely by confrontation. Peaceful non-violent demonstrations were just as much a part of changing society as were riots and bombings. In regard to the photo MLK preached non-violence. I stole a line from Sam Cooke in my signature because I believe that song sums up everyone's struggle for equality, even the TG's.

It would have served no purpose for the OP to throw a fit in the shop. It could have escalated to a very bad scene had she done so. There have been many "civil" replies given here that would have sufficed to either make the man think next time a TG came in or embarrass him enough he would think twice the next time if he wished to get more business.

MissC made the point that it was his establishment. He can choose who he serves. Not a smooth move to alienate clientele though. Being confrontational with him may have actually led to being arrested.

there is an old adage that says "if you like the service, you will tell a friend. If you don't like you will tell seven." Let's just not go to that store.

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Hey Susandrea and Melissa-

I stand corrected. You are both right, it wasn't taking to the streets nor by persuasion and the pulpit, not by any of these alone, that progress has been achieved for any group that was once a marginalized minority. Thank you for pointing it out.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[susandrea]

Just last week two crossdressers came into my store. Both were tall, thin, fairly well-dressed, but easy to read. They just were.

I waited on them and found them to be fun and charming, especially when they realized I was on their side, not nervous, defensive or judgemental.

After they left, one of my 'tough guy' co-workers commented that no matter how much I 'explained them' they were still 'messed up'.

Instead of launching into a tirade about transgender I said, 'Think about how very brave they are'.

After thinking about it, he said, 'I guess you're right. They certainly are very brave.'

I also reminded him to always address crossdressers as they present themselves -- as women. He responded by saying, 'I never would have thought of that'.

So. I didn't change his mind all at once, but I did get him to think 'brave' instead of 'messed up', and hopefully he won't address any CDs in the future as 'Sir' -- but I wouldn't hold my breath.

People react badly out fear and ignorance. If you always keep that in mind -- no matter who you are and what the situation is -- you have a chance to think clearly and react well.

I see people treated poorly every week -- the morbidly obese, special needs kids, Middle Eastern immigrants, gays of all kinds, the very poor, goth teens... you name it. Crossdressers are just another log on the fire of intolerance.

Society has a long, long way to go.

How many times have I seen CDs on this very board criticize the GGs of today for looking 'sloppy'? LOL I do that myself.

[Nicki B]

Check the previous sentence about putting yourself in someone else's shoes. Context.

But MC, you have made similar observations before? And you didn't answer my question - what do you think?

[Princess Chantal]

Just wondering, Do you get just as upset if you are portraying your masculine self and get "Ma'am'd"?
I've heard many crossdressing people taking this error as a compliment when it happens...... Does it mean that you failed for being a man?

Personally I don't mind if I get referred to as Sir or Ma'am when I'm in my feminine appearance. In my opinion Sir is used as a form of polite address for males. And oh look I am a male..... not a female.... not a transitioning person.

On another note,
Us guys tend to look damn mighty fine out and about in skirts!:heehee:

[VeronicaMoonlit]

I would really like to know where some of you get off, expecting to be treated with respect everywhere you go,

Coloradan, meet New York Stater (and Illinoisan). Of course we expect to be treated with respect everywhere, It's a part of the "societal social contract" here. Isn't it there?



just because you're somehow f***ing special.

It's not that we're special, it's just expected that people be polite, to everyone.



It's nice when it happens; folks should treat others with respect; and it would certainly make a nicer society. But there's no law.

Sure, there's no law but there's an unspoken and unwritten "social contract", which changes over time.


Do they not have a right to their own opinions? Do they not have the same right to free speech as you? (At least, while it lasts...)

They can think whatever they want, write whatever they want, but in retail relationships, business dealings, employment, housing, or just being out in public they'd better follow the rules (both written and unwritten) and social contracts.



Put yourself in someone else's shoes for a change. Hmm... I see a man in a dress. Man is the operative term. A man in a dress is a man, not a woman. Now what do you do?

You do what you're expected to do and what you've learned to do, and in some cases actually taught to do, you use ma'am.


Secondly, we're not all so hung up on pronouns. I don't care what someone calls me. On the same night, I'll get sir, miss, and ma'am.

For some of us, the pronouns are important.


So a retail minion directs a snide remark your way. Welcome to Earth. Fat people get it. Teenagers. Goths. Yuppies. Mexicans. You're not special.

No one should get it. People can think what they want, but there's unwritten social contracts. And around here they include, "don't be a rude asshole, be polite to everyone." It's a part of "fitting in"



And yes, to go about with the expectation that you should be addressed in a certain way, and to expect everyone to know it -- by extension, expecting to NOT be offended -- is arrogant. Haughty. False sense of entitlement.

How is it arrogant or haughty when that is what happens. You come here and go out crossdressed you WILL be addressed as Ma'am or Miss. Anyone who doesn't address you so has either not been paying attention (ignorance) or is being intentionally rude.

I expect people to know the proper behavior in regards to us, the same way I expect people not to use nasty racial epithets in public or to not call persons with Downs syndrome the "r" word.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

[Veronica75]

Coloradan, meet New York Stater (and Illinoisan). Of course we expect to be treated with respect everywhere, It's a part of the "societal social contract" here. Isn't it there?

I think at least a small part of the New York "social contract" of general politeness-- at least IN NYC-- is that you have no idea whether the person you're talking to (no matter who they are or what they look like) might turn into a raving, violent psycho at the slightest insult. Makes riding the subways a lot nicer than if everyone acted like they really felt.

[ReineD]

I think this is about the regular public not knowing what to say or do when they encounter a person who doesn't fit into either of the two boxes "male" or "female". It's happened to me too and it's a bit crushing as you think to yourself "can't they see what I'm trying to say? (be?)" ... I think it just means that these people need to be educated in how to address a TG person.

I agree with Rachel.

This has happened to my SO a few times, even though she goes everywhere dressed and she passes at the 95% mark, IMO. In some contexts, some people cannot ignore gender cues and unless this person has any experience dealing with TGs, he would have no clue how to address you. Think of it .. he may have framed it the only way he knew how, likely thinking you were going to an event that required you to dress that way. He likely has no understanding this is who you are inside.

I know it might be difficult especially in the beginning, but if this person did not say this to be rude (or even if he did), you could use the opportunity to educate him. You could say candidly, with a smile, "I dress like this because I am transgendered. I would like to be a return customer, but I feel uncomfortable being addressed as "Sir" when I am dressed this way."

The old gentleman might surprise you, apologize, and call you "Maam" from now on.
:hugs:

[jo_ann]

should have said "sir? where? I'm a maam'". I love people that think they're special for being able to read someone, like they're waiting for a prize for being right.

[dilane]

An older man walks out asks me what I wanted and I gave him my order. As he was putting the doughnuts in the bag he says..."do you want anything else...SIR" OH thanks for noticing the wig, the breasts, the skirt, the nylons. I guess the only saving grace was that the 3 men didn't say a word. Maybe I'll try another doughnut shop next week.

Yes, that happens to all of us more or less as a function of our appearance and vibe.

I got sirred a few years ago after a nasty two hour session of electro. My chin was all swollen, and I looked awful in either mode. She was a young waitress, and she meant no harm, but I told her nicely that when presenting as a femme, I'd prefer ... etc, etc... And she apologized and we chatted a few more times in a friendly manner.

I have a similar attitude to Miss Construed -- many people are shocked and flummoxed when first encountering an alien of our species, some are deliberately rude, and some are cool. You've got to roll with it. It's going to take awhile -- if it ever comes to pass -- before we're routinely addressed in our presenting gender. Remember, we are a small and paranoid minority; we don't have the rich well-oiled political and media apparatus that the Gay community has assembled over the years, although they've been generous enough to let us tag along lately.

In my particular case, I try to blend in, not being too big and having a decent voice, so I don't get much trouble. When I am read, I get the feeling that I'm at least respected for doing a decent job. I'm not shy, I make eye contact and chat. That makes a difference, too. If you're on defense, the whole world zooms in on you, or at least it seems that way.

-- Diane

[susandrea]

should have said "sir? where? I'm a maam'". I love people that think they're special for being able to read someone, like they're waiting for a prize for being right.

I doubt that's the case at all. You know many CDs don't try to pass! In other cases it's usually something like the voice that causes a question of gender. When that question arises during a time you have to interact with someone, say in a business setting, a person may feel a bit panicky that they'll say the wrong thing. (Kind of like asking a woman when she's due, only to have her coldly tell you she's not expecting). Being in the jewelry business, we HAVE to read everyone, trying to judge if they might be possible thieves -- either grabbers or the type to try and pass bad cards or checks. Looking closely at someone becomes automatic.

On the flip side, we get many butch lesbians in our store and it's a challenge trying to figure out of they are trying to pass as men or not(could they be transgender??), and how they might want to be addressed.

MOST people don't want to cause harm, and feel embarrassed for THEMSELVES that they don't know the correct way to act. Others are just jerks, and are most likely jerks to many people, not just CDs.

Several weeks ago a group (about eight) of fetish CDs came around, and everyone near me was fascinated. They were all dressed as little girls -- tights, patent leather shoes, frilly party-type dresses -- very much like dressed up Shirley Temples -- very detailed and expensive -- and all of them were taller than me and I'm 5'9''. Everyone around them was curious as they stopped to have their picture taken. I was actually surprised not a single person said anything mean.

Now, how would you address someone you know is a man who is dressed as a little girl? I would go with 'Miss', even if they're six feet tall.

Then another CD walked by, about two weeks ago, no wig but a short, manly haircut, no jewelry, no nails, no make-up -- nothing feminine except that he was wearing a short green skater's dress with sequins and a pair or high-heeled sandals. Now if he has come in the store it would have thrown even me, because he certainly wasn't trying to pass. I guess I would have introduced myself and asked his name, then taken my cue from there.

[Intertwined]

So I walked in and the lady behind the counter was nice and wished me a good morning. Then called for someone in the back to help her. An older man walks out asks me what I wanted and I gave him my order. As he was putting the doughnuts in the bag he says..."do you want anything else...SIR" OH thanks for noticing the wig, the breasts, the skirt, the nylons. I guess the only saving grace was that the 3 men didn't say a word. Maybe I'll try another doughnut shop next week.

1st, the lady seamed polite, in wishing you a good morning. I am kind of curious why she asked for help tho, when from what you said, there were only 4 customers in the shop.

2nd, the gentleman asked if you wanted anything else, and addressed you as SIR, sounds to me, he was being polite and addressing you as he saw (read) you. What I am trying to say, wouldnt it be wrong for him to address you as Ma'am when he thinks your a male, that could start a nasty confrontation.

Take me for example, I don't try to pass, I make it more that obvious, I am a guy in womens clothing, shoes, accesories. I can only once remember being addressed as Ma'am once, and I just gave them a funny look.

I wish there was a neutral greeting that is the equivellant of Sir or Ma'am.
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/picture.php?pictureid=9987&albumid=927&dl=1232602284&thumb=1 (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=927&pictureid=9987)-http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/picture.php?pictureid=9644&albumid=927&dl=1232199375&thumb=1 (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=927&pictureid=9644)-http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/picture.php?pictureid=9649&albumid=927&dl=1232199706&thumb=1 (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=927&pictureid=9649)
The above thumbs are linked to the full size image, just click

[Ralph]

Clear, and completely false. I didnt mean to give you the idea we were talking about laws, here, or the Constitution. We were, as far as I can tell, talking about basic, decent civility. About living in a society where certain rules and codes regarding respect and citizenship still, believe it or not, do apply.

What we have here is a failure to communicate. In two days I have seen more quotes taken out of context, turned around, and misapplied than I did during all the presidential debates.

Someone originally said he... she... whatever... has a "right" to be called however h/s/w wishes. MC pointed out that there is no such right. Someone else retorted that yuh-huh, is too. MC asked where in the Constitution this right is enumerated.

Do any of you folks understand what a "right" is? In a legal context, a right is something you have a written guarantee to expect, and when that right is not provided, you have the power of the courts to defend it. You have a right not to be enslaved, and if someone violates that right, you can get the courts to force the violator to comply and/or punish them for not complying. You have a right to move about freely within the country, to speak your mind verbally or in print, vote for whomever you wish... all of these rights are guaranteed in writing, and can be enforced if necessary.

You do NOT have a right to be addressed by the pronoun of your choice. You're perfectly free to wish people would do so, but they are also perfectly free to use a different pronoun if they feel it is more appropriate. No law enforcement agency in the country will punish that donut shop for using the wrong form of address.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Furthermore, while you certainly have a right to demand that people address you however you ask to be addressed... the key point in the original story is that NOBODY ASKED. The manager made a quick judgement call based on visual cues. If the OP had specifically said "I prefer to be called ma'am" and the manager still said "sir", I'd be on the dogpile agreeing the guy was being a jerk, but that didn't happen. Yet most of the folks here are so high on moral outrage you put words in his mouth, thoughts in his head, and crucify him for what you are sure he must have been thinking. Get over yourselves, will you?

If you're a guy, and you look like a guy, how about assume that someone calling you "sir" is just trying to be polite? And if you look like a guy in a dress, you're going to attract gawkers because whether you like it or not, you're an unusual sight. If someone walked in my donut shop juggling chainsaws I'd probably call to the back of the store for my friends to come look - not because I think the juggler is a freak or less than human or not deserving of respect, but because it's something you don't see every day. So what if the server called her friend to take a look? "Hey Bob, check it out - a guy at the counter is wearing a dress! AND juggling chainsaws!" If I were Bob, I'd be curious to take a peek too. Curiosity about the unusual is human nature.

It all comes down to whether you choose to be offended by not only obvious, deliberate insults but also every subtle, ambiguous signal that may or may not be intentional. Sure, call everyone a jerk who doesn't automatically know without being told how you prefer to be addressed. Boycott every store where your appearance as a guy in a dress draws stares. Fire off a stream of invective against everyone who fails to live up to your "unwritten code" of how to address various flavors of transgendered people.

Or just smile, enjoy life, and don't sweat the small stuff. I'd much rather go through life known as a cheerful guy who ignores the occasional snickering behind my back than a bitter tyrant with a hair-trigger temper who takes everything as a personal insult.

ralph

[ReineD]

I wish there was a neutral greeting that is the equivellant of Sir or Ma'am.


This may seem flippant, even though it is not my intention, but an alternative could be "Sam" (Sa'am). Isn't there a thread going on in the M2F section about all the Sams in the forum? Just trying to lighten things up a little. :p

... maybe it is the late hour. :gn:

[battybattybats]

Crossdressers follow many other types of people who have been treated very badly in public situations, and it has been historically proven that being aggressive almost always backfires.


Suffragettes were aggressive. Women got the vote. Womens Liberationists were aggressive. Women got equal rights in law. African Americans were aggressive. The picture in your own post is history. South African Blacks were aggresve. Apartheid is history. Ghandi's non-violence was nonetheless aggressive, passive aggressive. India regained independance from England.

Historically proven? WHERE?

Race riots in the 60's and now the USA has a black president. Stonewall Riots and Homosexuality got decriminalised.

Please present this historical proof cause when I look at history I see the opposite.

[Intertwined]

Reine, :lol: me and my movie quotes

Data from Star Trek: Ladies and gentlemen and invited transgender species.

hmmm Sa'am, too much like Sam, normaly a male name except when used as short for Samantha.

Good start tho....

[battybattybats]

Someone originally said he... she... whatever... has a "right" to be called however h/s/w wishes. MC pointed out that there is no such right. Someone else retorted that yuh-huh, is too. MC asked where in the Constitution this right is enumerated.

Rights don't come from law, or religion. They come from philosophy!


Do any of you folks understand what a "right" is? In a legal context, a right is something you have a written guarantee to expect, and when that right is not provided, you have the power of the courts to defend it.

Legal rights are simply protections of philosophical rights. It is in fact considered acceptable to break a law to assert a right. If that were not so then no law in the USA is legitimate as it is still the rightful colony of England!

The very legitimacy of the Governemnets of France, the USA and the modern parliament of the UK all depends on the legitimacy of Rights being OVER the law. They all came from civil wars or revolutions. People disobeying the law of the time violently because of rights.


You do NOT have a right to be addressed by the pronoun of your choice.

Please read up on the following: Veil of Ignorance. Ethic of Reciprocity. (optional are State of Nature. Social Contract.) Universal Decleration of Human Rights. and then the Yogyakarta Principles. You know what, just the wikipedia entries on those will likely do.


You're perfectly free to wish people would do so, but they are also perfectly free to use a different pronoun if they feel it is more appropriate. No law enforcement agency in the country will punish that donut shop for using the wrong form of address.

The law exists to serve rights, that is it's sole validity. The Yogyakarta Principles show there is in fact a right to Self Identification, including Gender Identity and Expression. We DO have that right!


Why is that so hard to understand?

Exactly! Read some philosophy, read where Rights really come from. It's not so hard to understand.

[wendy360]

When you are out and about and feel or demand that you should be treated by the way you are dress is wishful thinking.......you are just going to get your feelings hurt.

You need to have a open mind when out and about and understand that society really knows very little about us and is just trying to understand us all.

Getting dress up and walking out your front door into society can be very scary, that is why passing is so important to so many, lets face it the better you pass the better you are going to get treated............sometimes.

LA CINDY LOVE

I had no idea when I posted this I would start a legal battle that appears to be headed for the Supreme Court or a question of rights and if we are suffering as much as African Americans in the 50's and 60's. I was bowing off some steam. I guess I was hoping the clerk would have been more discrete or accepting. As someone new to going out in public and the first time going into a store of any kind, and after the woman clerk greeted me so nicely it hit me kinda by surprise to be called sir. It may be easy for some to speak there minds at those times but my mind essentially said get the f#@% out of here and what the hell were you thinking!!
And I have to admit that as I was walking home I thought to myself, That should give them something to talk about all day.
I still plan to go out, just need to decide where. As for pictures I don't have a tripod and the only people who know I crossdress are you. I may dress some day and go to the wig shop and ask her to take my picture. She was accepting of the life style.
Wendy

[MissConstrued]

Do any of you folks understand what a "right" is? In a legal context, a right is something you have a written guarantee to expect, and when that right is not provided, you have the power of the courts to defend it.

But gee whiz, Ralph, don't words just mean what we want them to mean? :Angry3:

Thank you. I get sick of explaining this, and it's mostly to folks who haven't bothered to learn the actual meanings of words, and thus probably will find your incredibly eloquent explanation equally opaque.




Rights don't come from law, or religion. They come from philosophy!



No, Batty, they don't. The idea of rights; the concept of rights -- that comes from philosophy.

Rights come from guns, so to speak. The Magna Carta did not exist because of philosophers scribbling treatises in their parlors. It came about because the commoners, in sufficient numbers, were no longer willing to live without it, and were willing to use violence to assert themselves.

As much violence is abhorrent to you leftist softies, it nevertheless reigns supreme historically. Where people retain the capability for violence against oppression, there will be freedom. When government holds the sole ability and will to use it, there is slavery. And you goddamn well know it, if you have half a brain.

My people fought a war for independence. Blood was spilled to get those certain rights we have enumerated on a document that government is supposed to obey, but now only pays lip service to, if that. We'll no doubt have to do it again.

But I sure as shit ain't gonna depend on philosophers to protect my rights. Rights are imaginary without force to back them up. If you wouldn't risk your life, or take another, to defend them, then rights don't mean much to you.

[MissConstrued]

But MC, you have made similar observations before? And you didn't answer my question - what do you think?


I have made this clear before. Wearing a saddle doesn't make me a horse; and wearing a dress doesn't make me a woman. Hang an artificial udder from a bull; he's still a bull.

If someone wishes to humor me with a "ma'am," dandy. If they don't, fine. I've been called a lot of things in my life, and if I let them bother me, I'd be a gelatinous bubble of whimpering goo on the floor. Hell, nowadays it's pleasant to hear anyone use "Sir" or "Ma'am" for any reason.

Maybe too many here are getting the idea that we are a majority because this is a big, busy forum. But we're not. And I find the notion that we should go about forcing our ideas of pronoun usage down the throats of the public quite stupid.



----------------

All you CD Pronoun Nazis: You are not a woman. Get the f*** over it. Take the occasional "Ma'am" you get, smile, and save it in a jar for when you're lonely; and stop expecting the whole f***ing world to bend to your desires. Chide someone if you wish, express your opinion if you must, but you have no right to not be offended.

[Melissa A.]

What we have here is a failure to communicate. In two days I have seen more quotes taken out of context, turned around, and misapplied than I did during all the presidential debates.

Someone originally said he... she... whatever... has a "right" to be called however h/s/w wishes. MC pointed out that there is no such right. Someone else retorted that yuh-huh, is too. MC asked where in the Constitution this right is enumerated.

Uh...yeah. I guess there IS a communication problem here...Amazingly, you posted one of my own quotes, then went on about "rights", as if I had never said that very thing! I also made it very, very clear elsewhere that I was not talking about laws. Giving me a lecture on constitutional law or what a legal right is strikes me as pretty unnecessary, and indicates that you didn't read anything I wrote very carefully. When I said "Yuh huh, is too"(thanks so much for the complimentary paraphrasing), I was, I thought, pretty obviously discussing whether or not this was person was being rude and/or obnoxious. My entire premise was that all of this was intentionally, and in my humble opinion, unecessarilly insulting. Again, *sigh* THAT is what was being disscussed here! (originally, at least)

I mean, Jeez, does everybody here have to explain EVERYTHING they write? Provide footnotes?? Yeah, I said I had certain "rights". That was within the context of human interaction, social constructs, and standards of decent behavior and citizenship, as people interract out in the world. NOT whether or not my right to be adressed as I wish was enumerated somewhere on paper. I know this. Most people do, I believe. And if I was so sloppy as to not explain this originally, I certainly made it clear in subsequent posts, as did a couple of others. And yet, the lesson on what a "right" is goes on, and on, and on.

So, in the interest of being exact, Let me try again, and be as clear as I can:

The OP was presenting female. Expecting to be addressed as such is not some vague, "unwritten rule", as you put it. If you called, say, an unfortunately ambiguous GG "sir" and she corrected you, I assume you would apologise and make the appropriate correction. If you then refused to, that would, WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF ACCEPTED SOCIAL BEHAVIOR, make you very rude and obnoxious. No, you didnt violate her civil "rights". But words have connotations, as well as written definitions. When I say she has a "right" to expect to be called ma'am and not sir, I don't think I'm being too far off when I assume people know what I mean by "right". Some things are just given. I once saw a guy in Provincetown who was 6'5" with a beard, hairy legs and arms, walking around with beautiful red dress and red pumps on. I'm pretty darn sure this person would not be insulted if you called him "sir". He wasn't all that quiet, either. I think it's safe to say that this was a parody, and not an attempt to be percieved as a woman. This is the closest real-life example I can come to your analogy of "a guy in a dress juggling chainsaws". In that instance, you are right. It's not something you see every day, and might be a perfectly legitimate cause for disscussion, and surprise.

Most Crossdressers who venture out in the world, as well as Transsexual women like myself, (who have no choice, btw), are not parodying anything, and would just like to be percieved, and adressed as who they are. They shouldn't have to say it, or wear a sign around their neck. This is the point. It IS rude to do otherwise, and the overwhelming majority of people who do so know very well what it is they are doing. The world is changing, due, in no small part, to the people who came before us, and had the courage and determination to put themselves out there, into the world. Isn't this the whole point of transawareness? to change perceptions, to let people know we're human, and just request some respect and decency in our lives? This isn't 1950. Those who behave rudely are behaving rudely. And in most cases they are going out of their way to let you know they are doing so.
NO ONE should have to "get over themselves" and get used to it. No one should be arrested for being rude, but if that's what is happening, we point it out, politely and with civility, and hopefully with some humor and grace.

One more thing-I'm not a "bitter little tyrant" who takes personal insult at every percieved slight. I wouldnt be where I am without thickness of skin, and a good sense of humor. Pointing out right from wrong, consideration from meanness, awareness from ignorance, does not necessarilly make you an angry person. I'm glad you are cheerful. Good for you. Making a stark contrast between how you percieve your demeanor and My opinions on civil and decent behavior is a false and misleading comparison.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

[battybattybats]

No, Batty, they don't. The idea of rights; the concept of rights -- that comes from philosophy.

Rights come from guns, so to speak.

Nope. Rights have been asserted through violence when neccessary, and it could be argued the defence of and assertion of then is the only excuse for violence, but to say rights come from guns is to say might makes right, that's invalid. But the defense of and assertion of equal rights does allow the use of force.


The Magna Carta did not exist because of philosophers scribbling treatises in their parlors. It came about because the commoners, in sufficient numbers, were no longer willing to live without it, and were willing to use violence to assert themselves.

Nope, Magna Carta, The French Revolution, the American Bill of Rights and far more involved both the philosophers in the parlours and on the battlefields arm in arm with the commoners. They did not come from the commoners alone but from the educated explaining the ideas to the commoners and working with them to overthrow or at least reduce the power of the aristocracy.


As much violence is abhorrent to you leftist softies,

Look again at history. The left has often been violent both in persuing wars when in power as well as supporting revolutions and in violent uprising. Only in recent decades has the left gone all hippy and pacifist in the main.


it nevertheless reigns supreme historically

Does it? The re-evaluation of the Dark Ages for example finds them actually to have been a time of great prosperity and advancement, but few wars and wars are favourites of historians. That speaks more of the bias of historians doesn't it? The times of great peace in the holy lands when Jews Muslims and Chsristians got along.. mostly ignored. The Crusades are much more studied and noted.


Where people retain the capability for violence against oppression, there will be freedom.

Often thats where tyranny and genocide comes from also. Tell me how many minorities get protected by violence compared to oppressed by it?

Where for example are the straight militia fullfilling their duty to protect the rights of Gays? That too is a rights issue and everyone is obligated to defend the rights of others or the rights won't be protected as equal, if the rights aren't considered equal their validity ceases to exist. And without that validity all you have is unethical abuse of power.


But I sure as shit ain't gonna depend on philosophers to protect my rights.

But you do need them to understand and know what your rights are, and the rights of others you have a duty to not impede and a duty to protect! Or better yet, learn the philosophy yourself and take back the intellectual power. Insist on it being taught to others...

Thats the most dangerous idea of all... teaching philosophy to the masses. It's what terrified Athens when Socrates taught the young to question authority and how to determine truth for themselves. And even when they tried him and had him executed he won by the power of his arguments. Even his own death was a victory.


Rights are imaginary without force to back them up.

No. Rights are unprotected without it and easilly violated. But they are also violated by misusing force too.


If you wouldn't risk your life, or take another, to defend them, then rights don't mean much to you.

You don't need to take a life, but risk it.. perhaps. You know MissConstrued, I think your going to find yourself really aggreeing with Socrates. When you read enough of him I think you'll find a hero in him. I mean that seriously.

I dare you to read enough about Socrates to understand what I mean. And before you know it I am sure you will agree with Ethics of Reciprocity too when you consider it objectively with ll the pro and con arguments. In fact I dare say you have the potential of being a potent philosopher of the most dangerous kind, one who can easilly discuss these ideas in simple everyday language.

And I'm sure once your willing to risk your current opinions as much as your life that you'll find Socrates was right, I'm right and thr Yogyakarta Principles are largely right.

[Sallee]

i wouldn't make a big deal out of it. I have used the wroung pronoun with real women. It was just a mistake on my part and I correct myself But it was more just habit of making a polite comment a salutation "Good Morning Sir" If he only heard your voice and didn't notice you that could be the reason also.the important part is they all treated you politely

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Sometimes things take on a life and momentum of their own, don't they?

Hugs...Joni Mari




I had no idea when I posted this I would start a legal battle that appears to be headed for the Supreme Court or a question of rights and if we are suffering as much as African Americans in the 50's and 60's. I was bowing off some steam. I guess I was hoping the clerk would have been more discrete or accepting. As someone new to going out in public and the first time going into a store of any kind, and after the woman clerk greeted me so nicely it hit me kinda by surprise to be called sir. It may be easy for some to speak there minds at those times but my mind essentially said get the f#@% out of here and what the hell were you thinking!!
And I have to admit that as I was walking home I thought to myself, That should give them something to talk about all day.
I still plan to go out, just need to decide where. As for pictures I don't have a tripod and the only people who know I crossdress are you. I may dress some day and go to the wig shop and ask her to take my picture. She was accepting of the life style.
Wendy

[Angie G]

They just don't understand hun.Maybe some day they will.:hugs:
Angie

[kobe]

That is totally my worst fear

[LA CINDY LOVE]

I am sorry but it is starting to get to me the way some people in this thread and others try to compare crossdressing to the human rights of people of race and the struggles that they had to go through.....I do not see it or feel it, and that photo that was posted was in poor taste.

LA CINDY LOVE

[MissConstrued]

No. Rights are unprotected without it and easilly violated.

Isn't that what I said, in somewhat different words? Unprotected rights are essentially (for practical purposes) nonexistent? Do you just like to argue so much you forget where you agree? :)




I dare you to read enough about Socrates to understand what I mean.

Have you then made the assumption that I have not read Socrates? Just as I've read Adam Smith and Karl Marx... I don't have to agree 100% with one work of philosophy. It's just another part of how one might form the "big picture."

[Nicki B]

Do you honestly believe there are only two possible options?


I have made this clear before. Wearing a saddle doesn't make me a horse; and wearing a dress doesn't make me a woman. Hang an artificial udder from a bull; he's still a bull.

So... Was that a yes? 'Cos I'm not sure.. :strugglin


I get sick of explaining this, and it's mostly to folks who haven't bothered to learn the actual meanings of words, and thus probably will find your incredibly eloquent explanation equally opaque.

Did you ever hear of the pot and the kettle? :heehee:

[josephine69]

So education is needed, not sarcasm or snottiness (though I know how you feel). You could have said, "I prefer to be called ma'm."

-Tracy

i agree, a positive outlook will get you much furtherthen getting wound up.

[JulieC]

I am sorry but it is starting to get to me the way some people in this thread and others try to compare crossdressing to the human rights of people of race and the struggles that they had to go through.....I do not see it or feel it

It's based on the presumption that we crossdressers are born the way we are.

Throughout human history, people have been discriminated against for what they were born as. If the presumption is true, then crossdressers are really no different in some respects than many other groups of humans who have been discriminated against for what they were born as.

Even if you remove the presumption, there's still a nearly infinite supply of discrimination against crossdressers based on something that doesn't hurt anyone else any more than a woman wearing pants hurts someone else.

[Lorileah]

I am sorry but it is starting to get to me the way some people in this thread and others try to compare crossdressing to the human rights of people of race and the struggles that they had to go through.....I do not see it or feel it, and that photo that was posted was in poor taste.

LA CINDY LOVE

Not really the thread to get into this. There are many other threads that point out that in many ways CD is very much like being a race, religion or gender that is oppressed. It is just that we can hide easier from the general public. If you like we can discuss this in another area, a thread or by PM.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

I have made this clear before. Wearing a saddle doesn't make me a horse; and wearing a dress doesn't make me a woman. Hang an artificial udder from a bull; he's still a bull.

You're not saying TS's aren't women, are you?


If someone wishes to humor me with a "ma'am," dandy.

Ahhh. I don't see it as humoring at all, if someone ma'ams me they're being respectful of my transgender identity.


Maybe too many here are getting the idea that we are a majority because this is a big, busy forum.

Oh no, that's not the case at all. But it wouldn't matter what numbers there are, it's not okay to be disrespectful. Just like how even though there aren't a huge number of Downs syndrome folks people shouldn't use the "m"-word" or the "r"-word in reference to them. (My job involved disabled people, so I'm familiar with them)


But we're not. And I find the notion that we should go about forcing our ideas of pronoun usage down the throats of the public quite stupid.

It's not forcing, at all. It's kind of like what I referenced above, it's not socially acceptable to use those words anymore, times have changed, expectations have changed. And, at least here, many know that you simply address transgendered people in the gender their presenting as. No ones holding a gun to their head, they just know that's what you do and that it's the acceptable way of doing so.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

[MissConstrued]

It's not forcing, at all. It's kind of like what I referenced above, it's not socially acceptable to use those words anymore, times have changed, expectations have changed. And, at least here, many know that you simply address transgendered people in the gender their presenting as. No ones holding a gun to their head, they just know that's what you do and that it's the acceptable way of doing so.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.


I am wholeheartedly in agreement when it comes to civility, politeness, courtesy. I have no problem if you tell others you'd prefer to be called thus or such. It's the sense of entitlement expressed by some (not you) that I take issue with.

[Bridget Fitzgerald]

While I think it sucks to get sir'd, social norms are dictated by a society as a whole. There is no right at all. Matter of fact, if the issue is pushed too hard, your liable to get backlash and the public swings the other way. Peoples perceptions have come a long way, and they will probably improve farther in time.

[JackieInPA]

As he was putting the doughnuts in the bag he says..."do you want anything else...SIR"


From the way the sir is capitalized i get the feeling that he emphasized it when saying it, thus making sure everyone heard it. Seems to me the only reason to do that is to humiliate them in front of the other customers. I have had that done to me, so i know how it feels. The problem is that its not against the law to hurt someone's feelings, to be mean to them, to mock them, to make them feel like shit. The only way you can legally retaliate is to boycott the store or make mean remarks back, and since the people making the remarks are small-minded, mean hearted jerks its almost impossible to make a remark that will score.

Personally if someone treated me like that my answer would have been, to ask for the owner/manager, and if he was one or the other never returned, if he wansnt i would have asked their opinion of rude people that feel the need to remove money from their wallets.

[susandrea]

It's based on the presumption that we crossdressers are born the way we are.

Throughout human history, people have been discriminated against for what they were born as. If the presumption is true, then crossdressers are really no different in some respects than many other groups of humans who have been discriminated against for what they were born as.

Even if you remove the presumption, there's still a nearly infinite supply of discrimination against crossdressers based on something that doesn't hurt anyone else any more than a woman wearing pants hurts someone else.

Thank-you.

I posted that pic as a reminder that the way many people are greeted in this world can be seen as -- and felt as -- an insult (obviously).

'Sir'... 'Boy'...'Sweetie'...

Sometimes it happens out of ignorance, sometimes on purpose as a put-down. Historically it was more of a power-play, while today it tends to be out of ignorance (although where you live does affect that.) Just today I felt irked my boss's boss called me 'honey', but I suppose I should be grateful to know she likes me...

The transgender movement is currently fighting very hard to get laws passed that mirror civil rights laws in many ways. Protection from hate crimes, loss of employment, equal treatment at work and in court, ect. I follow those legal battles every day, as well as the news from all over the world of what's going on in the transgender, gay, and civil rights movements.

As for comparing transgender to race or sexual orientation -- you could argue that for years. The gay movement is battling out the 'born as' vs. 'it's a choice' argument in a big way and I don't see that being resolved anytime soon. Many in the religious right jump to add the transgender crowd in the 'choice' group, too.

Will the day ever come when bigotry, misogyny, racism, and homophobia ever disappear? Or is mankind doomed to forever find something about his neighbor that is objectionable in some way? I think that day will come, but only after a daunting amount of work -- and even our grandchildren won't live to see it.

And all you CDs who do venture forth out into the public and just try to get through a day with little fuss and hopefully an honest smile here and there, you will be looked on in the future as the pioneers of the transgender movement, during the first several decades when it was considered a gutsy thing to do.

Be remembered for your grace, intelligence, and fortitude!

:love:

[Carin]

And all you CDs who do venture forth out into the public and just try to get through a day with little fuss and hopefully an honest smile here and there, you will be looked on in the future as the pioneers of the transgender movement, during the first several decades when it was considered a gutsy thing to do.

Be remembered for your grace, intelligence, and fortitude!

:love:

Can't you just hear the music louder and louder with each word.!! :)
Thank you for saying that susandrea. Very moving.

What a debate. Sorry guys and girls (choose which you prefer) I really got lost in the middle and had to skip to the end.

I know that if I have on a leather jacket and standing at a counter my facial energy (or is that just my nose) says male regardless of makeup or whatever else is on. Was the 'SIR' ignorance or defiance - who knows. It comes with the territory and will slowly - ever so slowly change. Hugs :hugs: to Wendy. You came here to vent, but you will be charged for the hundreds of wo/man hours consumed by the respondents :lol:

It does however get easier with time, and the odd slight will have less and less significance.

[battybattybats]

Isn't that what I said, in somewhat different words? Unprotected rights are essentially (for practical purposes) nonexistent? Do you just like to argue so much you forget where you agree? :)

No, the right exists, if unprotected and is unable to be asserted or is prevented it is violated. A human/civil rights abuse. A fundamental injustice.

The right still exists.


Have you then made the assumption that I have not read Socrates? Just as I've read Adam Smith and Karl Marx... I don't have to agree 100% with one work of philosophy. It's just another part of how one might form the "big picture."

Good point.
However surely you would agree then that philosophy is at the heart of all things? That it is simply the higher form of thinking which enables better decisisions and chocies which are the strength behind all politics and power?

Consider Thulsa Doom's answer to Conan and the Riddle of Steel (lol, philosophy is a big part of that action movie) but the answer that sits above that, that thought is stronger than flesh which is stronger than steel is the great wisdom.

It's ideas understanding and knowledge which control choices, and choices control actions, and actions include violence and power. Freedom and justice are some of these ideas.

The ideas are at the heart of it all.

Including this thread.

[Rachel Morley]

And all you CDs who do venture forth out into the public and just try to get through a day with little fuss and hopefully an honest smile here and there, you will be looked on in the future as the pioneers of the transgender movement, during the first several decades when it was considered a gutsy thing to do.

Be remembered for your grace, intelligence, and fortitude!
Wow! What a awesome thing to say. If you were standing on a podium and saying that to me and the assembled TGs, at say a Pride event, I'd be jumping up and down and chanting your name! Very inspiring words (to me at least) :)

[susandrea]

Wow! What a awesome thing to say. If you were standing on a podium and saying that to me and the assembled TGs, at say a Pride event, I'd be jumping up and down and chanting your name! Very inspiring words (to me at least) :)

Rachel, if I knew you were going to read this I would have added 'poise, humor, and a great sense of style!'

:D

[Melissa A.]

I am wholeheartedly in agreement when it comes to civility, politeness, courtesy. I have no problem if you tell others you'd prefer to be called thus or such. It's the sense of entitlement expressed by some (not you) that I take issue with.

There's a bit of a difference between having a sense of entitlement and asking to be treated respectfully and with a minimum amount of decency. A sense of entitlement is generally cultivated, or taught, over long periods of time. Most who have this sense often don't even realise they are displaying it. Dominant social or economic groups are a good example. A spoiled adlolescent is another. A person who has had to learn, over time, to even be minimally confident when out in public can hardly be described as having a sense of entitlement. Myself as an example, I dress fairly plainly most of the time. Not for any reason but that I enjoy being comfortable. And again, I'm a ts, not a cd. Although I think there really shouldn't be a difference, to tell you the truth, the lone exception being that I don't have any chioce but to be out in the world. Some may think I "pass", some not. I really don't care about that. Up close and personal, most know I'm trans. But when you look at and interact with me, there is no doubt whatsoever about what sex I am presenting as. I am "asking" by my presentation, to not be adressed as a male. That's a very simple and non-threatening concept. Saying nothing at all is ok. But going out of one's way to let me know, especially verbally, that you're going to dig your heels in and refuse to give me that, because you know very well how disrespectful and demeaning that can be, is rude and unecessary. As I've repeated here, I don't get mad, jump up and down, throw tantrums. And I do realise that mistakes are made, some are unsure, and some feel uncomfortable. I get that. I smile and politely correct. But we arent talking about mistakes or a faux pas, here, generally. And when you take the two behaviors, going out of your way to insult or try to demean, compared to simply asking implicitly to be addressed properly, which is actually more selfish? Which is asking more of the other? This isnt a problem I run into very often. Most people are polite and gracious. But when it does, I say something. And I think anyone who does is justified. I suppose different people place the bar in different places. But to call asking to be teated respectfully and addressed obviously(Yes! obviously!) as you wish to be, "Stupid" or acting with a sense of entitlement, makes very little sense. The whole idea of trans-awareness, is to show people we arent monsters or freaks, and that we're their neighbors, relatives and friends. And yes, that we aren't going to tolerate being treated as such. If that sounds overly "angry" or "entitled" to you, so be it. I dissagree. And enough progress has been made, I think, to expect a small amount of respect and decency from people. That's not even close to any sense of entitlement.

Hugs,

Melissa :)

[vivianann]

Being an experienced out in public crossdresser or tg, if I get called sir which happens once in a while, I politely say I prefer to be called ma'am, and so far peaple have been apoligetic and polite to me.
What I would have been offended by was the woman behind the counter not wanting to help me because I was enfemme, what she did was rude, I would have said since she thinks she is too good to help me you will not get my business anymore, I then would have walked out.
That kind of behavior has never happened to me when I am in femme mode, but it happens alot when I am in male mode because women find me to be too ugly to look at to help me, when that happens to me I tell her what she did was rude and I leave, and I do let the manager know that because of the rudeness of the employee, they will not get my business anymore.