Definitions

[RobertaM]

This quote is from article is posted on our support group site in Vancouver, I thought i would share it. I thought it was a reasonably well done outline. Note: Not trying to be controversial but this kind of info has helped me understand the references and literature out there and thought i would post it for dicussion.


When discussing the transgendered population, there are a few terms that should be defined for ease of reference. A cross-dresser (CD) is a man who dresses like a woman for several reasons but is not gay and has no desire to actually become a woman. It is usually a man because, unfortunately, women can dress in men's clothes and appear as a man in public without any fear of reprisal; indeed, it is done every day and has become generally accepted. The term “transvestite”(TV) is essentially the same as being CD with one major difference and that is a medical diagnosis defining a transvestite as one who dresses as the opposite sex as a fetish or for sexual gratification. Being transsexual (TS) refers to one who is in the process of undergoing the gender-change procedures including surgeries, hormones, and lifestyle adjustments. To be “transgendered” (TG) is an “umbrella” term that covers all three of these (CD, TV, and TS). Other terms that are in use include “drag queen”, a male who dresses as a female for profit as in a club or bar; a homosexual, one who is sexually attracted to members of the same sex; and a bisexual, one who is attracted to both males and females.

full article located at
www.cornbury.org

Ciao Roberta

[Sharon]

A cross-dresser (CD) is a man who dresses like a woman for several reasons but is not gay and has no desire to actually become a woman.

What do they consider a gay man who dresses like a woman for several reasons but has no desire to actually become a woman?

[Persephone]

full article located at
www.cornbury.org
Ciao Roberta

Thanks for the info, Roberta. Helpful in a discussion my spouse and I were having about the term "Transgender."

Ah, dear old Lord Cornbury,
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/sandylewiscares/Lord_Cornbury.jpg

Have you seen Patricia U. Bonomi's recent book about him that attempts to trash everything we cherish about the dear Lord? "The Lord Cornbury Scandal: The Politics of Reputation in British America" (Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1998, ISBN 0-8078-4869-7).

Why, she even says that isn't a portrait of him! Those of us from South Carolina never did trust those North Carolina university folk!

[RobertaM]

What do they consider a gay man who dresses like a woman for several reasons but has no desire to actually become a woman?

In reading the full article she conclude that the vast majority of Cd are not gay, thus the assumption . The article was written by a SO and relates to her Cd husband. Apparently he went(drag) to the dissertation she did at the school.

Sounds reasonable to me. but I aggree i would call a Gay male dresser a CD as well.


Helpful in a discussion my spouse and I were having about the term "Transgender."

Yes indeed, I got called Transgendered for the first time by a CD freind of mine. I really hit me like a brick.


Have you seen Patricia U. Bonomi's recent book

I have not.

[Miranda-E]

A very insulting article.


"When discussing the transgendered population, there are a few terms that should be defined for ease of reference. A cross-dresser (CD) is a man who dresses like a woman for several reasons but is not gay and has no desire to actually become a woman. It is usually a man because, unfortunately, women can dress in men's clothes and appear as a man in public without any fear of reprisal; indeed, it is done every day and has become generally accepted. The term “transvestite”(TV) is essentially the same as being CD with one major difference and that is a medical diagnosis defining a transvestite as one who dresses as the opposite sex as a fetish or for sexual gratification. Being transsexual (TS) refers to one who is in the process of undergoing the gender-change procedures including surgeries, hormones, and lifestyle adjustments. To be “transgendered” (TG) is an “umbrella” term that covers all three of these (CD, TV, and TS). Other terms that are in use include “drag queen”, a male who dresses as a female for profit as in a club or bar; a homosexual, one who is sexually attracted to members of the same sex; and a bisexual, one who is attracted to both males and females."


A crossdreser has to be strait?
A gay person only wear the clothing of the opposite gender has to get paid?

[TSchapes]

A cross-dresser (CD) is a man who dresses like a woman for several reasons but is not gay and has no desire to actually become a woman. It is usually a man because, unfortunately, women can dress in men's clothes and appear as a man in public without any fear of reprisal; indeed, it is done every day and has become generally accepted.

I like to see gender identity and sexual orientation separated. It is true, that through what studies have been done, a majority of men that are CD are heterosexual, there are a good number of them that are bi and some are gay. Cross-dress and transvestite are the same. trans=cross, vestite or vestiges meaning clothes. And it does apply to both men and women, though it is more acceptable for women in society to wear mens clothing.


The term “transvestite”(TV) is essentially the same as being CD with one major difference and that is a medical diagnosis defining a transvestite as one who dresses as the opposite sex as a fetish or for sexual gratification.

Again, transvestite being a fetishistic CD, is more of a North American connotation than what it was meant to denote. In Great Britain and Europe (folks please correct me if I'm wrong), transvestite is interchangeable with CD. If I may quote from Wikipedia:

Magnus Hirschfeld coined the term transvestism [in 1910] (from Latin trans-, "across, over" and vestitus, "dressed") to refer to the sexual interest in cross-dressing. He used it to describe persons who habitually and voluntarily wore clothes of the opposite sex. Hirschfeld's group of transvestites consisted of both males and females, with (physically) heterosexual, (physically) homosexual, bisexual, and asexual orientations.

Also, tying auto-erotica to a CD and making it transvestite is troubling. What about the CD that dresses 24/7 (sometimes referred to as trans-gendered) and is auto-erotic, it is hard to get into someone's mind as to what is turning them on. Chances are, it's not the clothes.


Being transsexual (TS) refers to one who is in the process of undergoing the gender-change procedures including surgeries, hormones, and lifestyle adjustments.

Some transsexuals will argue with this too. Some believe themselves to be TS whether they are pre or post-operative. It is more of a belief that there gender and possibly genitals are the opposite of what they should be.


To be “transgendered” (TG) is an “umbrella” term that covers all three of these (CD, TV, and TS).

This is true, but some people use the term to indicate a 24/7 CD or pre-op TS. This is one of those terms that has morphed, from one to the other. I'm not sure which was first.


Other terms that are in use include “drag queen”, a male who dresses as a female for profit as in a club or bar

A better way to explain drag is that it's purpose is to entertain. Again, though the tradition of drag came out of the gay community, there are bi and heterosexual people that do drag.

I prefer the information on Wikipedia, though not perfect, it is pretty good, and it is getting better. A good place to start there is with the Wikipedia Transgender Portal. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Transgender)

[Breanne]

Quote: ".....A cross-dresser (CD) is a man who dresses like a woman for several reasons but is not gay and has no desire to actually become a woman. It is usually a man because, unfortunately, women can dress in men's clothes and appear as a man in public without any fear of reprisal; indeed, it is done every day and has become generally accepted. The term “transvestite”(TV) is essentially the same as being CD with one major difference and that is a medical diagnosis defining a transvestite as one who dresses as the opposite sex as a fetish or for sexual gratification...."
How absurd! 'cross-dresser' is literally a translation of the Latin based term 'trans (i.e. cross) - vestite (i.e dresser.)' So much time and effort has been put into trying to make a difference in the two terms when there just isn't one.

[Gabrielle Hermosa]

I've seen so many differing definitions that I don't think there really are any completely agreed upon ones.

I've had some trouble figuring out proper terminology myself. I've just kind of settled in to certain uses of words as best I understand them and go with it.

Even within this forum, I notice some variation on how terms are utilized, and we ARE crossdressers and/or transgendered people.

[sissystephanie]

Tracy,

The major problem with the definitions that you are writing about is that they came from Wikipedia. Much of the so-called information in Wikipedia has no basis in fact. Wikipedia is not written, for the most part, by people who have studied English language in depth. From what I have learned, almost anyone can put a definition, or meaning, of a word on Wikipedia. A friend of mine, who is a retired Times magazine editor, said he has never seen as much garbage as has observed on Wikipedia. Try the Encyclopedia Brittanica, or any other legitimate word source.

Crossdresser: A person who dresses in the clothing of the opposite sex merely for personal satisfaction. May be male or female, gay or lesbian!

Transvestite: a person who dresses in the clothing of the opposite sex for sexual reasons. May be male or female, but definitely could not be considered "straight."

TransgenderCD: a person who dresses in the clothing of the opposite sex and desires to be that sex.

Transsexual: a person who not only desires to be the opposite sex, but in most cases has started on a program to achieve that desire!

I myself am a Crossdresser! I wear feminine clothing because I like to!! I have no desire at all to be a woman, and in fact don't even care if I look like a woman. I just want to wear their clothes!!:heehee:

But as other have said, who really cares about labels? Each one of us is a unique person, and that is all that matters. As my 6th grade teacher used to say, people call you names because they aren't smart enough to really know what to say! I believe that to be very true about people who try to label us!

[Lorileah]

It is a good basis for a specific discussion group at a specific time and location. As in "let's agree that CD means...for the purpose on this group." So for your support group if you all agree that what is defined there is kosher, then it works. In a general context, you get the disagreements above :)

[TSchapes]

Stephanie,

If you check the Wikipedia transgender links yourself, you may find yourself in agreement with the articles. To me, it's better than a lot of other random web pages out there. I think too that our community could help Wikipedia along by adding our own input to it.

Also, Nature Magazine compared Wikipedia against Britannica, and this is what they found in 2005, this from CNET (http://news.cnet.com/Study-Wikipedia-as-accurate-as-Britannica/2100-1038_3-5997332.html):


For its study, Nature chose articles from both sites in a wide range of topics and sent them to what it called "relevant" field experts for peer review. The experts then compared the competing articles--one from each site on a given topic--side by side, but were not told which article came from which site. Nature got back 42 usable reviews from its field of experts.

In the end, the journal found just eight serious errors, such as general misunderstandings of vital concepts, in the articles. Of those, four came from each site. They did, however, discover a series of factual errors, omissions or misleading statements. All told, Wikipedia had 162 such problems, while Britannica had 123.

That averages out to 2.92 mistakes per article for Britannica and 3.86 for Wikipedia.

"An expert-led investigation carried out by Nature--the first to use peer review to compare Wikipedia and Britannica's coverage of science," the journal wrote, "suggests that such high-profile examples (like the Seigenthaler and Curry situations) are the exception rather than the rule."


Like a professor of mine once said, read one book, get one view, read many books, find the answer. I don't use Wikipedia as an end-all be-all, but sometimes as a starting point.

-Tracy

[Carin]

I totally agree with Lorileah above. Any discussion needs consistency of language and the group needs a common agreed upon language. If the primary audience is married couples then it is productive to state that {most} cross-dressers are not gay. It is an over-emphasis that helps to counteract the stereotypical gender role notion that looking like a woman implies being attracted to men. It doesn't fit a whole-world audience but that is not the Cornbury society either. Ommitting the word {most} does not change the message for the intended audience.

As for Whole World audiences - I do like Wiki because it gets into the popularly understood definitions of terms which, certainly within the TG community, are often self defined by the group and morph with time. God forbid that one would use DSM-IV as a source for TG definitions.

Labels -
As we discuss transgender acceptance in schools, relationships, legal affairs etc, it is critically important that we be consistent. Inconsistency particularly within the community will be used as a weapon by the vocal minority that will try to repress transgender rights. Good rhetoric with little fact will wreck havoc over rational discussion that is suffering from inconsistencies.

Here is an argument for the need for consistent definitions and labels:
One of the most powerful and successful weapons used by those who oppose Transgender Rights is the "pedophile in the women's bathroom" argument. It is way off base, but is nonetheless successful at blocking local legislation that seeks to assert transgender rights across the country. I have no problem with the statement that "cross-dressers are not pedophiles" as a counter argument, and I don't particularly want to qualify it with {most}. Even the fear or perception that it might happen is enough to do a lot of damage. Consistency of definition of transgender weakens the argument by emphasising the irrelevance of any overlap between cross-dressers and pedophiles in peoples understanding. In another example, in this post the minority was successful in blocking a diversity display that included a trans person in a school, partly by introducing an irrelevant reference to pornography. The more we are consistent about what transgender is, the less it will be misunderstood.

OT, As a fledgling newbie, The Cornbury society was one of the first sites that I found that I could relate to.

[TGMarla]

All these terms are a bunch of hooey. There is no clear delinetion between one term and another. So if a guy wears women's clothing, he's a crossdresser, but if he whacks off when he does it he's a transvestite? Must be true; there's a medical diagnosis there! Spare me. And you cannot be transexual if you're not actively pursuing a GRS? Or if he dresses and happens to be gay, he's a...a...oh, there's no term there for that. Dang! We ran out of words!

[Carly D.]

No wonder there is so much confusion when this is the umpteenth description of cross dressing and it's still different from the twenty before it and the twenty after it.. why can't there be a universal description for these things like they have for different hotdogs or whatever.. just get it right once and let it be adopted by everyone..

[Lorileah]

No wonder there is so much confusion when this is the umpteenth description of cross dressing and it's still different from the twenty before it and the twenty after it.. why can't there be a universal description for these things like they have for different hotdogs or whatever.. just get it right once and let it be adopted by everyone..

<----- Ok this is a CD. You all have to find your own word now :)

[Nicki B]

Transvestite: a person who dresses in the clothing of the opposite sex for sexual reasons.

PLEASE - remember this CD/TV difference is a particularly US (Tri-Ess) invention. The rest of the world uses the terms interchangeably.


why can't there be a universal description for these things like they have for different hotdogs or whatever.. just get it right once and let it be adopted by everyone..

Well, for starters, because everyone wants their own definition to be the one adopted.

The other option is not to try and pigeonhole people - simply use 'trans' or 'transgender' to describe us all....

[Lisa Golightly]

What... No Glamsexual entry? I am disappointed...

[linnea]

Thank you for the information. It's interesting that we are so concerned about the definition--I am too.
My daughter who does not yet know that I crossdress (am not gay, want to transition but have decided that I really should have done it forty years ago and that it is not practical or feasible now--does that make me a wannabeTG?) and I had a short discussion about this recently. At that time she corrected my use of the term "crossdresser," saying that "the appropriate term is 'transgender.'" I laughed a little to myself and imagined what she would say when I told her that I was a crossdresser and that I was familiar with the lingo. She's a great daughter, and I'm eager to see her at the end of the month--that's when I plan to tell her.

[linnea]

PLEASE - remember this CD/TV difference is a particularly US (Tri-Ess) invention. The rest of the world uses the terms interchangeably.



Well, for starters, because everyone wants their own definition to be the one adopted.

The other option is not to try and pigeonhole people - simply use 'trans' or 'transgender' to describe us all....

Yep, that's what my daughter said too. She's working on her masters degree with an emphasis in sexuality and gender issues, so I guess she's got some reason to know a bit about it.

[Dressing Jill]

I wonder what the teenage people are saying we are. They are the new consciousness that will bring us (CD TV TS TG ETC.) into the light and make it ok in the eyes of the public. Just like women having the right to vote, gays having the right to marry etc.....

[kelliboots]

Why do we need labels. Aren't we just trying to put people in a box. Each person journey through the universe is entirely different from everyone elses. Let's drop all the labels and help each other with what they need to progress in their own journey.

[Jilmac]

I think all the terms and definitions are nothing more than labels placed upon us by a society unaware, or unwilling to accept all people as equals. Alas, there will always be those who are labeled as different from the rest of society.

[Carly D.]

I think as far as cross dressers are concerned there are many levels to the "addiction" or "mental condition" that has to do with cross dressing.. so like if you wear ANYTHING female oriented you are a cross dresser?? or are you a fetishist?? or quirky? or what?.. there are those who can wear just panties and be fine.. me I can get by with wearing shoes and be ok (high heels of course).. but I do on occasion have to wear more and still on others have to dress to the nines as it were.. so I'm a "part time cross dresser with tendencies to wear few things but every now and then dress more and more to the point where the "volcano" erupts and I'm full dress up dress mode".. that would fit on a descriptive on a docs pad somewhere..

[battybattybats]

Drag once covered all of us.

The Crossdressers and Transsexuals of the Compton Cafeteria Riot were called Drag Queens at the time. The documentary on these brave TG folk who courageously fought against police oppression (hopefully coming out soon for home DVD, at the moment it's only available for broadcast, festivals, libraries etc) is called Screaming Queens.

And most of the Transgender people at Stonewall were referred to as Drag Queens.

Drag after all just comes from DRessed As Girl and Drab from DRessed As Boy.

In other words like Transvestite it's just another word for Crossdresser.
And if we try and divorce ourselves from it totally we will lose our connections to a proud history heritage and culture.

[Nicki B]

Drag after all just comes from DRessed As Girl and Drab from DRessed As Boy.

In other words like Transvestite it's just another word for Crossdresser.

One more way of saying the same thing - and ignoring why.. :sad:


Yep, that's what my daughter said too. She's working on her masters degree with an emphasis in sexuality and gender issues, so I guess she's got some reason to know a bit about it.

Intriguing, don't you think? How did she come to that specialisation?

Does she perhaps suspect more than you believe? And would she be interested in talking to us, here?

[pattyv]

Hi Roberta: Am trying to contact you at crossdressers. Am from Cornbury.

Laura.

[RobertaM]

I am here

[tricia_uktv]

But I am a t-girl. Do I not exist?

[DianneW]

I hate labels,can't we just be ourselfs, stright,gay or in between and just enjoy what little time we have here.

[deja true]

But I am a t-girl. Do I not exist?

'Doth not a t-girl have eyes? Doth she not bleed when you prick her?'

Concerning Tracy's post about the peer review of Britttanica and Wiki... keep in mind that the Brittanica is only published every couple of eons and (even though I've not bothered reading its entry on trans anything) definitions or descriptions in there are likely to be a little behind true modern usage when speaking about ongoing situations. Wiki, though maybe a little more error prone, does have the advantage that it can be challenged immediately and modified. Arguments are kept on file for general perusal. Everyone will have their say if they so choose.

Jill's advice to heed the future generations is also relevant here. Language changes, sometimes weekly, and the meanings of words change subtly or drastically, often becoming exactly the opposite of the original intention. Urban Dictionary is a good example of that.

Use the labels that fit your style or your mindset. Or try not to use labels at all.

Words are a functon of culture. Culture changes continuously!