Why Do We Bother [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

cindym5_04

06-03-2009, 01:47 PM

I definitely appreciate how supportive my wife is and appreciate the other supportive GGs here as well. I tell my wife all the time how much it means to me to have her in my life and to have found someone to accept me for who I am.

I think all too often, too many people like to complain for the sake of complaining or want to stir the pot. I've encountered a lot of people (not just cd/tv/ts) that are constantly in the mindset of "x is never enough" - no matter what it is. So, my thought, to address this particular thread, is to ignore those that say "it's not enough". There are a lot of cd/tv/ts gals that also are so self-centered that, you are right, they don't consider anyone else's feelings. I think that being with a partner who is tv/ts/cd, like any other relationship, is give and take- both sides need to have understanding and both need to take each other into serious consideration. I do get tired of reading on here where so many of the t-girls are like "well, I'm going to do this when and where I please and she's just going to have to accept it". Those times I just think to myself, "selfish b*tch...make every one of us look bad too".

Sorry for the rant.

Sarah...

06-03-2009, 01:51 PM

No one had best tell me how I should live!!

Quite.

Joni Marie Cruz

06-03-2009, 01:52 PM

Sheila, fwiw, I do understand how difficult it is at least perhaps a little. It's my great good fortune in life to have a loving and supportive spouse, just as you are. Believe me, in many ways I would not want to be in her shoes and have to bear the burdens she does. While being TG has its difficulties, being the spouse of a tgirl has to be even harder. I know so many girls (tgirls) whose spouses and SO's have simply up and left because they could not deal with it. You and all other wives and SO's who stick with their men (I use the term generically) are a few in a million.

Perhaps I will get some flak over this, and I don't mean to tar all of us with the same brush, but in a lot of ways we're a pretty needy bunch. We want validation, support, praise, compliments, understanding, and oodles of time to indulge ourselves often without any thought of reciprocating. Don't worry, I didn't come up with this list, which is a very short one, all by myself. They are things my wife has sweetly pointed out for me in the spirit of bettering myself.

You, Sheila, and all the other wives and SO's who put up with us are incredible.

Hugs...Joni Mari

cindym5_04

06-03-2009, 01:53 PM

Well, apparently, all those GG's who's SO's have come out to them, should now be standing on roof tops telling everyone, their kids, their parents, their families, work etc etc... and risk losing everything :rolleyes: because if not, we're not doing our bit to help other TG's... seriously... what a crock of :censor:

Tamara, you haven't realized that you ladies do nothing for us? I mean, come on, ONLY administrating the group and being supportive and giving us advice? We want more more more!! Do more for us!! You're not supportive ENOUGH!! **throws tantrum**

Couldn't have said it better myself!! No one had best tell me how I should live!! :bigsmack:

...Thanks. Now you've got Rihanna & T.I. "Live Your Life" stuck in my head...

To the gg's on the forum- :love: thank you.

Mary Morgan

06-03-2009, 02:06 PM

Sheila, you said it very well. I'd love to report that it will change for the better, that your comments will all be considered and responded to in a positive manner, but I see the same things, I'm even guilty of some of them. I can only promise you that will never take you or any of the other women here for granted, or make you responsible for my shortcomings.

SouthernBelle.GG

06-03-2009, 02:12 PM

It's a bit counterproductive to come on a forum where a lot of the GGs are trying their hardest to be as supportive as they can be and be told we're not doing enough. Like Sheila, it makes me want to throw my hands up and say 'forget it'! I'm doing what I feel is best for my husband, my family, and me. It might not be as much as the next wife or SO, but it counts dammit! It counts!

charlie

06-03-2009, 02:24 PM

Society looks at us as crazy losers that are just strange at best. Most GG's do so as well. You ladies are the only validation that we have (besides fellow TG's and CD's). Thanks so much for giving your advice and support. Thanks so much for calling us fools when warranted. I'm sorry for those here that rag on you saying "you do not understand or know what you are talking about". That small minority is going to wreck your good insights for the rest of us. Your thoughts and advice is a main reason for the success of this forum. An anchor in the storm so to speak.

Deborah Jane

06-03-2009, 02:38 PM

Sheila my darling, without your support i wouldn't even be at the stage of acceptance i've reached with myself now :hugs::love:

As far as i'm concerned, you are doing more than enough to support me with this, and i'm sure your being here has helped plenty of other members here to come to terms with themselves too :)

I just wish some people here would appreciate you and the other GGs for the support you all give :hugs:

Thank you to all the GGs here :hugs:..............Especially to you Sheila, for being the love of my life and loving and supporting me for who i am :love:

Lissa Stevens

06-03-2009, 02:50 PM

I wish I had a wife like you ladies. I am sorry you feel like some of us don't appreciate you. I would like to thank you for being there and supporting your SO's and all of us on this forum. You are all very sweet and special ladies.

Violetgray

06-03-2009, 03:06 PM

Um.. At the risk of sounding incredibly naive, if you, a gg, support me, and let me be me, then what else is there?

What is the "more" to demand?

Miranda-E

06-03-2009, 03:18 PM

Um.. At the risk of sounding incredibly naive, if you, a gg, support me, and let me be me, then what else is there?

What is the "more" to demand?

exactly.

cindym5_04

06-03-2009, 03:19 PM

Um.. At the risk of sounding incredibly naive, if you, a gg, support me, and let me be me, then what else is there?

What is the "more" to demand?

Money for shopping? :heehee:

Sheila

06-03-2009, 03:27 PM

Um.. At the risk of sounding incredibly naive, if you, a gg, support me, and let me be me, then what else is there?

What is the "more" to demand?

Apparently that we should be doing so bloody much more :Angry3::Angry3::Angry3:

If we say a CD should come out to their partner early, despite the dangers to the relationship, family, job, career etc... ..........................

Shouldn't SO's? Shouldn't they risk their families, their friendships, their jobs even by being open about being in a rlationship with a CD (as well as any skeletons in their own closets)? Essentially if a SO thinks a CD should confess they are a CD despite the risk of others judgement should not the SO be willing to eqaullly share that burden?

Sorry but my partner, my family (our kids especially) and the friends we have are also important as is their comfort levels ................ I willingly walk this road, wherever it leads Debs, but I/WE HAVE NO RIGHT , to demand that those closest to us share that burden because Debs is TG & I choose to support her.

If I am going to demand that others support something, trust me TGism, would be not be top of my priority list ............. protecting kids and their rights would be my number one priority

Miranda-E

06-03-2009, 03:41 PM

SouthernBelle.GG

06-03-2009, 03:53 PM

...Only offering support thats hidden isn't offering support...

Thanks for that other slap in the face. Forgive me if I don't stick around and ask for another.

LisaM

06-03-2009, 03:58 PM

I am afraid that I agree with Sheila (and Southern Belle).

I appreciate any support that I receive from my SO. I understand and concur with her concerns and boundaries.

Gender identity is a serious issue but my marriage and my family are more important and I need to let my SO know that more often.

For those that believe their gender expression is the most important issue in their world then maybe they should not be in a marriage (and, more importantly, let others know before having any relationship with them).

Sheila

06-03-2009, 04:01 PM

I have to agree with what was said in battybattybats quote.

Gender identity and expression is not a joke or a short term game. Its who the people in your life are. That shouldn't be hidden and kept behind closed doors. Only offering support thats hidden isn't offering support. It also sends a bad message to the transgendered person in the relationship that there really is somthing bad about them and that its something that will only be tolerated in secret.

Jobs come and go, friendships come and go. A persons human dignity should not be stripped away for convenience.

So is it okay for my 12 year olds human dignity to be stripped, because I decide to support my partner who is TG .................. I don't think it is ............ unfortunately we live in the real world and nobody will tell me I should put my sons welfare before anybody, not for anything .... HE IS MY NUMBER ONE PRIORITY, my elder 2 children are adults and I will also consider how our actions will reflect on their lives. my daughter has 2 babies. Debs has 3 children our kids come first, last and the whole way inbetween.

When Batty or any other TG steps outside the door openly & fully upfront as TG ( & I mean openly), maybe justy maybe he has earned the right to advise others until than no he does not .................. we can all if we wish support TG issues it does not mean we are a TG or in a relationship with a TG, or have TG relatives ................

When TG's decide to be open about who they are then we the GG's can stand beside them openly until then those that wish to remain in the closet to others other than their so have the same right to privacy and dignity as the rest of the world & nobody should be demanding anybody be shouting from the roof tops especially if they are more than happy to fight from the rear

KarenCDFL

06-03-2009, 04:07 PM

Talk about a tense thread!

Everyone here has a different story to tell.

I told my wife well before we married, gave her a chance to learn about who I really was (or even back out) and she made the decision that I was the same person in a button down shirt and pants as I was in a dress. That was almost 16 years ago.

I appreciate her as one spouse to another should!

I very much appreciate her, not because I can be who I am, but the term "She Let's Me Dress up" has never come up. Ever!

When I hear or read that an SO has given their SO "PERMISSION" to dress, I just find that very controlling. And control breeds dissension in the relationship.

We have never had to set boundaries as I never took advantage of a great thing!

From what I see, a lot of cross dressers issues with
their SO's occur because they never told them before they got married. In this case anyone could understand problems occurring mainly because of trust and honesty issues.

Then there is "The kid in the candy store" who gets some acceptance and goes overboard.

The fact is, being a CD or TG at this stage of society is still odd behavior to most of the world so of course there are going to be problems in physically showing who we think we should be.

Hopefully in 20, 50.. 100 years all of this will be nonsense and people will live as they wish will full acceptance of others.

It has to happen. In the past, women and minorities were considered 2nd class citizens or even non-human. Not that these issues are totally gone but they are getting there.

The acceptance of sex and gender will get there too.

I know, I have drifted off a bit so let me say this:

I appreciate any GG who has the ability to understand their SO! She should be given presents, hugs and flowers on a regular basis. Not just because of the dressing, but just because.....

JackieInPA

06-03-2009, 04:38 PM

Wow...just wow. I appreciate the help, advice , support given by anyone on this forum..but especially the GG's. Its them we are trying to imitate. As far as SO's we can be a heavy burden to bear on our wives, GF's, BF's. They face humiliation same as us, because of us. They take the chance that we will still love and respect them as we journey through this maze together. I get a little annoyed by my wife's boundries sometimes but then i see a story here about someone miserable because their SO wont let them at all, and i realize how good i have it, and my wife gets a foot massage.

to all the GG's on the board know this:

I believe there are many more people here who love and respect you because you love and respect us, than there are those who thing you owe us something...dont lose heart!!!

Joni Marie Cruz

06-03-2009, 05:13 PM

Dear Belle-

What I've found, as a fairly new returned member to this site, is that there are as many points of view and ways of expressing them as there are members here. I don't always agree with what was expressed or how it was expressed. Most of the time I find myself nodding my head in agreement with points of view that coincide with my own and thinking what an exemplary and intelligent person they are or muttering imprecations and wondering at the obtuseness of people I don't agree with.

What I guess I'm trying to say is that if something is said that is hurtful or makes me angry, I don't necessarily assume that everyone here feels the same way. We don't. And I'm sure the vast majority of us do appreciate all the understanding, help and support we get from the natal women here.

Hugs...Joni Mari

Thanks for that other slap in the face. Forgive me if I don't stick around and ask for another.

06-03-2009, 05:31 PM

From this thread it seems everthing we do is NOT enough and we are even supposed to totally out our partner even if they do not want to be outted at work

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108470

We GG's all do what we need to do for our kids, family, friends,work and esp partner. Alot of time new GG's come here and look for support.....then after a while they really are helping their partner accept themselves as well. Some are involved in outside things it it a personal thing AND WE ARE ALL HERE TO SUPPORT OTHERS AS WELL:love:
BUT IT SEEMS LIKE WHATEVER WE DO IT SEEMS NOT TO BE ENOUGH as preached to us by someone without a job, without a partner and without children!!:Angry3::Angry3:
Tell us to out our partner to the family, at work and with the children. Give me a break!!
Yes Sheila I agree for some people it seems
why do we bother!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!

Anna the Dub

06-03-2009, 05:46 PM

I don't have a SO, but I do have a very supportive GG best friend, without whom I would not be alive today. I love her to bits and let her know all the time just how much her friendship means to me. I do not try to push a TG agenda anywhere in my life, I just try to live my life as best I can in order to be the happiest I can be. I think that all the GGs on this site are wonderful. They offer advice, friendship and support to all of us, and I really do appreciate it. I cannot understand why anyone would have a problem with any of them. But that's just me.

Joni Marie Cruz

06-03-2009, 05:49 PM

Wow, Di, since my post was the one just above, and I have to assume the one you mentioned, then I do apologize. I meant absolutely no offense and didn't realize I was so clueless. Please forgive me. What I wrote, however poorly I may have expressed myself, was meant in a positive and supportive way for every FAB here and for every natal female who supports or at least tolerates their TG spouse and deals with all the other things as well that women are expected to deal with in their lives.

BTW, I do have a job, I do have a wife, we have been married over 25 years and I do have a son.

-Joni Mari

We all do what we need to do for our kids, family, friends,work and esp partner. Alot of time new GG's come here and look for support.....then after a while they really are helping their partner accept themselves as well. Some are involved in outside things it it a personal thing AND WE ARE ALL HERE TO SUPPORT OTHERS AS WELL:love:
BUT IT SEEMS LIKE WHATEVER WE DO IT SEEM S NOT TO BE ENOUGH as preached to us by someone without a job, without a partner and without children!!:Angry3::Angry3:
WALK A MILE IN OUR SHOES
( the above thread mentioned.) The nerve of your clueless rhetoric is beyond description!
Yes why do we bother!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!

VeronicaMoonlit

06-03-2009, 06:05 PM

Someone once said, on another trans message board I frequent, that prescriptive language is a bad thing. Meaning saying people "must" do something or "have" to do something. Even "should" can be a bad word at times.

I'm a singleton without kids and I tend to keep my trap shut on couples matters, other than to tell CD's they should (there's that word) tell early, before they get married and not keep it a secret through decades of marriage.

Do I think telling the kids is a good idea? Yes, but it's not something one "has" to do or that they "must" do, and I'm of the "tell them young, or tell them older, but don't tell them in-between" school of thought.

Do I think openness in general is a good thing? Yes, it's how we're going to remove the stigma attached to "This Thing of Ours", but how open is a very individual thing. And someone like me, who eventually wants to go full time, has different needs on opennness from people who don't.

It's like how I put my real name in my posts, but I'm not going to bash anyone else or complain that others don't do it even if I think openness is a good thing.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

06-03-2009, 06:06 PM

Of course not ladies it is thread in the loved ones section that has made us feel our efforts are not enough. Thanks though:hugs:

this is the thread

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108470

Joni Marie Cruz

06-03-2009, 07:29 PM

Thank you, Di, for having clarified that. Please accept my apology for having taken what you meant in a wrong way.

Hugs...Joni Mari

JackieInPA

06-03-2009, 09:07 PM

To all the GG's:

Like i said earlier i believe that the people who have expressed these sentiments are way in the minority. It would be a terrible loss for us to lose you!!!!!

Tanya C

06-03-2009, 09:08 PM

My wife goes way above and beyond the call of duty when it comes to supporting my crossdressing. In fact, she is more than accepting, she is encouraging and accommodating. She goes out of her way to make Tanya feel very welcome in our home.
Considering this, I wouldn't dream of asking my wife to tell her friends and family about my crossdressing as it would create a very awkward situation with respect to the various relationships that we both have, and I am simply unwilling to put her through that.

I do understand the need for crossdressers to become more viiable in society in order to become more accepted in the mainstream, but that's a cross I will have to bear, not her.

Tanya

Kolokea GG

06-03-2009, 09:13 PM

My family is my family...decisions that affect the whole family are made by my DH and I. Because we choose not to tell people does not make us bad people or unaccepting in anyway. We choose to keep a certain balance in our life that is our choice..not anyone elses. Just because someone else has an opposite opinion doesn't mean it is going to make us change our mind. We have control of our own lives....as do all of you. There are times I find it is very upsetting to see a CDer upset with their SO over what to me is sometimes very petty things. There are also very big issues too, but the advice given sometimes is not always the best. What if we had the issue totally wrong and it really wasn't as bad off as it was put across, but we told the person over and over..get out of the relationship...but how often do we actually get to hear the flip side. How often is it because of an over reaction. Relationships..marriages are hard work...but in the end it is the couple that must resolve the issue. All we can do is offer advice and to me "get out now" is not advice. As far as not feeling appreciated...all the appreciation I need comes from my cder.....I offer advice and help when I can..when appropiate...other than that...I shrug off the rest.

lori m crawford

06-03-2009, 09:26 PM

i know all the thing your talking about an your right be cose i am a cd-ts an if was lockey e nouth to have a women that wood have me that way i wood not now what to do but i wood do ever thing that i cood to make her life as good as i cood

AmandaM

06-03-2009, 09:30 PM

The women here do more than enough. Geez, life is harsh for us, you want to spread the misery?

Miranda09

06-03-2009, 09:51 PM

From what I've been reading here and on other posts, I think the women are doing a wonderful job of support. The fact that they're on this site at all should speak volumes. I think, perhaps, many Cder's, not necessairly those here, may just take themselves a bit too seriously, and perhaps too self absorbed, at the expense of their loved ones. I'm not speaking from experience here as I do NOT have an SO. However, if I did, and I opened up to her, I would do all I could to support her as much as I hope she would support me. )Just my 2 cents worth!) And to be quite honest, if I did have an SO, and she had a difficult time dealing with this issue, there's no question as to what I would do. She comes first, my hobby comes second, and maybe time would take care of the rest! Hope I'm not offending anyone here with this.

curse within

06-03-2009, 10:08 PM

Hi Shelia,

You bother because it's in your nature, this is something that has grown on you and has become a custumed to you. Think of it as a project the challenge is enough to keep you busy ( I know you have plenty of other things to keep you ) but this for some reason has become ...you.. Why?..Well, because Shelia my dear your not in it for the guy in a dress thing oh no not at all or someone who others may think he is confussed about his sexual identity,,,, hell no..

You are in it because you care, you found that you can make a differance in not only Debs life but others such as me. You have a place to execise your skills in helping others through understanding and knowledge never danceing around the truth but getting straight to the matter.. You tell people what the need to hear not what they want to hear. I for one respect and appreciate you and others who deal with this kind of behaviour:hugs:

AmandaM

06-03-2009, 10:57 PM

Sheila, this is a public forum. In being so, you'll see all kinds. Including the psychos, freaks, perverts, and general a-holes.

Don't let the bozos (insert your definition) get you down. We love ya, Dorothy, stay with us!

TxKimberly

06-03-2009, 10:57 PM

Apparently there are some here that do not have supportive or even tolerant wives. I don't claim to have read all of those posts, but in concept, is it really so out of line for those people in that boat to feel saddened and seek support for that here?
If you are a GG, and are on the this forum, it seems pretty clear that this sort of post would not be aimed at, or meant for, you. Unless it's "your " crossdresser complaining about you, why would you take these peoples posts as a personal insult? Maybe it's the "guy" in me, but it seems a bit over sensitive to me for you to get upset about someone complaining that their wife doesn't accept them.
And yes, I suspect I'm gonna get flamed for this, and even tried to talk myself out of posting it, but I just can't help myself. I'm stupid that way . . .

Deedee Dupree

06-03-2009, 11:02 PM

There have been three people in my life that without their unconditional love, guidance and support I would not be alive today. First and foremost was my late wife and second my mother who is still alive.

Since my wife passed away, I have been very fortunate to have the company of a totally accepting GG friend/companion, a well known person active in several alt. lifestyle orgs., with a long track record as an advocate for TG and other repressed minorities rights. She has opened many doors and I have met some extraordinary people. She is mentor/friend/companion and my debt to her is enormous.

In general, I do understand very well that truly supporting GG's are extremely rare, especially those who also find time to contribute on forums in an attempt to help strangers. Because there are so few GG's available and so many CDs whose needs are so great, it is no surprise that the load can often become too great for so few to bear, especially when they must also deal with day to day affairs in the real world.

Why bother? I participate in the forums to offer support when there is an opportunity. Unlike most people here, the most common issues are no longer relevant to me, but I do remember how things were and I can make some comments that may be of value based on current circumstances.

I like to think someday when I am gone, someone may remember something someone/I said on this forum, and it saved their life.

At times I am inconsiderate, sometimes I am a fool and I am often abstruse, but when I have clarity, at the core, there resides a compassionate being. So being aware, I have no choice. That is why I bother...
and why I think you and many others do the same.

Addition: " She ain't heavy she's my sister"

dd

Crysten

06-03-2009, 11:07 PM

Well, all I can say is - you have to take each person, and each situation, on it's merits. Everyone is different. In some cases, spouses support each other fully, and the TG person feels wonderful for it (hopefully this is true for both parties). In other cases, maybe not so much. I agree with you Sheila, my son is my #1 priority. Above all else. I could wish my wife were more supportive, and she TRIES (mainly by leaving me alone to do my thing mostly), but what the hell, it is what it is. I don't fault her for it.

Above all else, people who complain on here should QUIT WHINING ON THE FORUM ABOUT YOUR OWN PERSONAL SITUATION THAT YOU CREATED AND YOU SHOULD DEAL WITH. There. Now I've done it.

Crysten

Presh GG

06-03-2009, 11:38 PM

JulieK1980

06-03-2009, 11:59 PM

First off let me say, thank you to all the GG's on here and everywhere in the world that are truly supportive of us, in whatever way is appropriate to that situation.

The only question I have is why do so many GG's throw a temper tantrum every time someone posts a thread that doesn't jive with there own thoughts. When someone attempts to start a dialogue that goes contrary to popular opinion, why be offended? why not counter with valid rebuttals? Why the "no one cares about how hard we have it" crap from the GG's.

Quite frankly a lot of you are starting to sound as bad as us CDers. Why not destroy an argument with facts in stead of taking it personal. The person who wrote it, has had DIFFERENT life experiences than you, and you have had DIFFERENT life experiences than them. This is just another "attack Batty" thread as far as I can tell. Where are real valid points? Where do you say anything other than "poor me, no one thinks I sacrifice enough" Yup we ALL have rough times.... get over it and learn from it, and figure out how to make it better for others.

I'm truly starting to wonder how supportive this site really is, when if you go against the standard thought process you just simply get flamed.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but to attack someone just because they disagree with you or hold a different opinion than you is ridiculous.

Kathi Lake

06-04-2009, 12:07 AM

Of course not ladies it is thread in the loved ones section that has made us feel unwelcome, unhappy and all our efforts are not enough. Thanks though:hugs:

this is the thread

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108470Di, thanks for clarifying the thread. There are certain members here whom I've placed on Ignore status for my peace of mind and therefore I hadn't seen the thread, and was totally lost as to where all the negativity was coming from. There is enough negativity in the world. Coming here - a place that is supposed to offer support - and seeing all that c**p, makes me sad.

I thank you so much for your support, GGs and all. Even the fact that you're here is so much more support than I normally get in the world. For me, that is enough. If I needed someone else to prop me up, I'd have bigger issues than my non-standard wardrobe.

Kathi

DaphneGrey

06-04-2009, 12:17 AM

I just wanted to say publicly that I respect admire and cherish each GG I have had the good fortune to meet on this form. You have all reached out to me, offered support and advice, friendship. I have grown so much by listening to you talk about the good and the bad of sharing your lives with transgendered SOs.

In the months that I have been here I have become a better partner, by taking your advice about respecting my wife's feelings and concerns, our life at home is wonderful. She has responded the way you said she would. And we are both much happier. I have all of you to thank for that.:c9:

I can't imagine how hard it must be for you ladies. Doing all that you do for your SOs and us! I often think it is harder for an SO than for TG because although our lives can be difficult we have the release at the end. We get to be pretty:daydreaming: If that makes any sense, what I guess I am saying is after the headaches and concerns, the what ifs, the struggles. we get where we want to be (in my case anyway) indulging our female sides, getting the validation and basking in the peace of not only being ourselves, but getting the validations of the ones we are closest to.

Sadly we often forget that the people around us who give us this validation, suffer the same fears, have the same doubts, jumped the same hurdles, and face the same judgmental world that we do. And they do it without our motivation. We have this thing that drives us, this inner desire that carries us past the sneers, the chuckles and the cold shoulders. Our friends and family members do not have this overwhelming drive that can turn a man like the one I used to be into the woman I am so desperately trying to become.

It is not lost on me my dear GG friends that your motivations are driven by sheer love for your SOs:love: And your rewards come from seeing them happy and fulfilled. How wonderful you all are:hugs: It really hurts me when you are marginalized or taken for granted.

So to Sheila, Tamara, Reine, Sandra, Di ,Socute, Dusty, Paige, DD, Southern Belle , Fluffy Persian:love::hugs::clap::dance:: Thank you from the bottom of my heart, for all that you do for your SOs, and for me.

Love
Daphne

Sarah...

06-04-2009, 01:10 AM

this is the thread

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108470

I think that countering a clearly academic thread that contains way more questions than answers or directives with responses (across two threads) concerning an individual's employment, marital or parental status is an unfortunate stance to take.

Some of the proposals in that thread are difficult to support for most people, I agree. But surely there are other ways to rebut the propositions? A set of propositions like those in the thread concerned doesn't mean that others aren't doing enough. They ask if we could do more. If we can't, then fine.

I suspect an online forum is not the right place for such academic discussions on this subject, there's too much personal risk for many. Discussed here it's not a wholly academic issue and is therefore highly subjective. So an academic post, interesting though it might be, is doomed to failure.

Sarah...

DemonicDaughter

06-04-2009, 01:42 AM

I stopped posting on here because my words of encouragement were twisted into something of malice intent because someone else felt I wasn't supportive.

I stopped posting because it was assumed that my silence over certain situations was an admittance of some sort of guilt as oppose to respecting another's feelings.

I stopped posting because it often seems futile to shovel so much sh!t against the tide.

I'm posting here now to support my friends.

I'm posting now because, although I'm openly bisexual, it is MY right and MY right ONLY to tell anyone else. I do NOT ever hide my sexuality but it honestly isn't anyone else's business either.

If my partner wishes to tell someone she's TG, that is HER right and HER decision. NOT MINE!

Telling people your SO is TG isn't showing "support", its telling the world their business. Now should your SO decide they want to tell everyone, that is their choice and even then, its up to them to carry out that action. I'll gladly stand by my partner while she does so.

DaphneGrey

06-04-2009, 01:48 AM

Satrana

06-04-2009, 02:14 AM

Of course not ladies it is thread in the loved ones section that has made us feel unwelcome, unhappy and all our efforts are not enough. Thanks though:hugs:

If you feel offended by a member's point of view, should not your comments be contained to that specific thread? And how does a single member's viewpoint make all the GG members feel unwelcome? Is this member the spokesperson for all CDs?

If the goal of this thread is to demonstrate your hurt feelings and attack another member, then where is the tolerance and support in that? This thread comes across as little more than "an eye for an eye"

Samantha Kelsey

06-04-2009, 02:33 AM

When Batty or any other TG steps outside the door openly & fully upfront as TG ( & I mean openly), maybe justy maybe he has earned the right to advise others until than no he does not ..................

Right on Sheila, we can't expect others to fight our fight especially if we are not prepared to fight ourselves. We should stand up or shut up!

Bobbi Em

06-04-2009, 05:03 AM

To address Sheila's original question, I suspect that you "bother", because you know that this world needs kindness and compassion and understanding.

We will never have a Rosa Parks situation, where there's a point that everything changes...So we do what we can, the best that we can, in private & in public.

So many, many, huge THANKS to all the GG's for whatever support you have been able to offer.

Bobbi

Sandra

06-04-2009, 07:03 AM

Well I just give up :sad: never thought I'd hear myself say that but the thread in the lounge has got to me.

No one is going to tell me that I should be doing more for the TG community :Angry3:

I do enough by being here with Nigella. Why should I go out and shout it to everyone? why don't those who want this go do it themselves? my answer they don't have the balls to do it and want someone to do it for them.

06-04-2009, 08:17 AM

If you feel offended by a member's point of view, should not your comments be contained to that specific thread? And how does a single member's viewpoint make all the GG members feel unwelcome? Is this member the spokesperson for all CDs?

This thread...(Sheilas) is about that thread I already posted in that one and I was posting in here as well.

You are very correct this person def is not a spokesperson for cd's. Point taken and thank you.

cindym5_04

06-04-2009, 08:33 AM

To address a couple of things that have been posted:

1) I'd be PISSED if my wife ran around telling everyone that I crossdressed, unless I told her previously that it's okay. I have kept things as "secrets" about her that she and I know, but I don't go running around telling everyone. So, no, I don't think (after reading the "loved ones" post) that the SO should be going and telling everyone.

2) Has everyone had the same experiences in life? No. That's what makes us all different and why many of us have different reasons for why we dress. It's one thing to say "I've had these bad experiences", but another to question all of one group of people (GGs in this case). How often are we, as tv/ts/cd, thrown into a category- to which we then complain? Isn't that the same thing?

3) HONESTY and TRUST- two key words for what makes a strong relationship. If you have to keep things constantly hidden from your SO, aren't you dooming yourself? Personally, I feel as though it is truly unfair to whomever you're dating (with potential long-term relationship possibility) to keep something that is so important in your life, a secret from them. You're being COMPLETELY unfair to them. If you then tell them after you're married and they aren't accepting of it and want a divorce, the way I see it a) you have no right to complain, and b) if it's used against you in the reasoning of the divorce hearings- it's fully their right to. If the SO can't accept it, don't you think they have the right to say "I'm sorry, I can't be with him because he crossdresses. It's something that disturbs me greatly and I don't see him anymore as the man that I married". Sorry, if I piss some people off with that, but as I said- honesty makes relationships work. And seriously, if you haven't been in a relationship, then STFU about telling other people what to do in theirs.

4) As I said, I have a wonderful, loving, and supportive wife. I told her when we were friends- even before we started dating. Her only caveat about me dressing and us going out is something that we laugh about all the time. Her famous quote is "I don't mind us going out and I'll help you look good- but there's no way in hell I'm going to make you look better than me". :D Do you realize how special it feels to have someone that loves you and supports you and accepts you for who you are? My wife has helped me accept my own self for who I am. She's boosted my confidence in so many areas of my life. I can't express enough to her how special I feel being with her and how much I appreciate her. From my own experience, I felt bad about myself for so long, coming from a mother that told me that I'm a "freak, pervert, and in need of serious mental help" and that I would "never find anyone to love me, because NO woman wants a man that does THAT, because you are not a REAL man".

I'm just truly tired of hearing the selfish behavior of cd/tv/ts that just want everything to be "all about me". Seriously, maybe those that feel that way really need to take some time, look in the mirror, and get a grip on reality. Everything is not "all about you". Other people have priorities and responsibilities too. OUR actions, as with any other group or single person, DO come with consequences. That is a fact that can't be ignored.

How many times oh here do we hear on here "oh I want acceptance"? We have gg's that come on here and say "I respect and accept you". What then happens and why this thread got started- "umm okay but that's not enough". Seriously? WTF?? Real bright- ask for acceptance, then push people away or throw them under the bus for it. Completely brilliant. It just amazes me how people can be such f'ing dumbasses.

TGMarla

06-04-2009, 08:58 AM

Random thoughts on this.

Look, my wife in not really supportive of all this. This doesn't make her a bad person. Not at all. It just means that she's not really down with my crossdressing. It is not her job to support me in this. Then again, she doesn't hammer me about it either. We have a mutual respect for each other, so we don't throw this in each other's faces.

Batty, who notably has not chimed in on this thread, is a person who's train-of-thought is often accompanied by some depth. She thinks a lot, and posesses quite an intellect. Her thought here is that since this forum pounds on the concept of early disclosure, is there not some kind of transitive relationship there that suggests that a CDs SO also then lend her support. I don't think it was really meant as a crack back on SOs, or to suggest that they don't do enough. Most SOs don't ask for this; it is more often thrust upon them. Many often ask why a CD does not disclose their odd little habit early on. Mostly it is because of fear of reprisal. Either the CD is villified for being a CD, or villified for not disclosing it. She (Batty) is merely suggesting that if a CD is expected to disclose early on, should there not be an implied expectation of acceptance. If the answer to this is no, then it's a pretty raw deal for the CD.....but then, no one ever said life was easy. When a woman enters into a relationship, more often than not, she's not expecting her man to entertain a habit of emulating women, and parade around in a dress and high heels (and boobs, and hair, and so on). She is not duty-bound to simply accept or support this behavior as though it doesn't matter.

I think Kimberly's post is right on. I don't think Batty's post was meant as a personal insult to anybody in particular. She is merely trying to stimulate intelligent conversation. I don't think that anyone should have taken it so personally. Obviously, some here took it badly, and were a bit incensed by the comments. My friends Di and DD are obviously not happy with some of the behavior displayed here on this forum, and that's too bad. Sheila, too, is also not very happy with some of the members here. This is unfortunate. But as the saying goes, one bad apple.....

As CDs, it is nigh on impossible for us to see things from the unsuspecting SO's point of view. In turn, she cannot see things from the CD's point of view, either. We think, "Hey, I do this, but it's really no big deal." But to the SO, it flies in the face of what she has been taught her whole life about the roles of men and women. And this is a hard thing to get her mind around. Very often, we grew up with this, so we have had a very long time to get used to it. She did not, and to have it thrust upon her is a very difficult thing.

Sorry to get all windy there.

Can't we all just get along?

Anna the Dub

06-04-2009, 09:03 AM

No offence to Batty, but sometimes I do feel as if I am being judged and found wanting when I read some of her posts. Me, I will live my life however I want, answering only to the people I love and care for.

cindym5_04

06-04-2009, 09:07 AM

No offence to Batty, but sometimes I do feel as if I am being judged and found wanting when I read some of her posts.

I agree...and no offense (qualifying statement), but I do feel a negative vibe more often than not. Just my opinion.

Ricochet

06-04-2009, 09:17 AM

To all the GG's:

Like i said earlier i believe that the people who have expressed these sentiments are way in the minority. It would be a terrible loss for us to lose you!!!!!

I wholeheartedly agree.

LA CINDY LOVE

06-04-2009, 12:53 PM

I have to agree with what was said in battybattybats quote.

Gender identity and expression is not a joke or a short term game. Its who the people in your life are. That shouldn't be hidden and kept behind closed doors. Only offering support thats hidden isn't offering support. It also sends a bad message to the transgendered person in the relationship that there really is somthing bad about them and that its something that will only be tolerated in secret.

Jobs come and go, friendships come and go. A persons human dignity should not be stripped away for convenience.
Miranda any support that we Cd's get is a gift, but to say that support is a joke because the SO/GG is not open to all........is very selfish of you, you have been dressing for 25yrs you just make the decision to go full time 5yrs ago and once you go full time you have no choice but to come out to all your parents, family, Friends, co-workers and your job.

But what this tells me is that you do NOT have a SO in you life.....you just have you.

Sheila I do understand what you are saying and why you feel that way, I have read many post were a CD who dose NOT have a SO in their live tells another CD who dose that their SO needs to be more supportive or is not supportive enough or is to controlling or needs to understand your needs more... and the one that gets me is if she dose not support your needs and what you are going through then you should leave.

I do feel that their are some Cd's who feel that SO/GG can never do enough......thier is always more they WANT them to do.

LA CINDY LOVE

Miranda-E

06-04-2009, 01:09 PM

But what this tells me is that you do NOT have a SO in you life and if you do.....when do you plan on telling US all.

I was out from age 4, just only full time for 5 years.
Your wrong I do have an SO the same one for for well over a decade. I have mentioned I had an SO once before. If my SO wasn't supportive I wouldn't be with him. I just wouldn't settle for anyone who isn't supportive everywhere in my life. married, closed on our house with me dressed. Lots of people assume that they have to settle to be with someone, when all they have to do if go out and find someone worth being with.

thier is always more they WANT them to do.
again, what is this more?

battybattybats

06-04-2009, 01:17 PM

Did I say an SO should out their partner against their partners will? No I did not. Did I say any of the GG's here were not doing enough? No I did not. Did I judge anyone here? No I did not.

I made a hypothesis argument based on sound ethical reasoning. Nothing more.

As for children... 50%+ attempted suicide rate for TG people comes up in several studies.. thats the highest I ever heard of for any group of people.

With the discovery of genes found more often in TSs and scientists predicting more will be found including amongst CDs that means that if so then combating transphobia is protecting your own children and not doing so is leaving them vulnerable to death.

But as I said, read the whole thread properly to see what I actually say.

And rather than emotive rhetoric I suggest people put their minds where their mouths are and demonstrate where what I said was Philosophically in error as a statement of Ethical Reasoning! Especially as the thread was to analyse such ideas, not to state they were so!

By all means find fault with the hypothesis I present in that thread if possible, it's why it was put there. No need for all the attacks though. Especially if what i actually said, understood in full context, cannot be shown to be incorrect!

When Batty or any other TG steps outside the door openly & fully upfront as TG ( & I mean openly), maybe justy maybe he has earned the right to advise others until than no he does not

Like I did when I went fully femme to the womens comedy festival, when I walked from my house to a friends party in front of all my neughbours and where I knew only one other person, when I went to another party where most were strangers that lasted for two days fully femme, when I said "I am transgender" to the group of local people gathered to discuss the pros and cons of a charter of rights who I raised TG rights issues with, when afterwards, still wearing lipstick and with red painted nails and a womens coat on I went shopping at the supermarket, not for the first time or the last... when everyone who knows me knows I'm gender-non-conforming which is specifically part of the Transgender Umbrella and when most of those know I'm specifically a cross-dresser!

Joni Marie Cruz

06-04-2009, 01:25 PM

Okay, to chime in once again. I happen to like Batty and a lot of the things she says. Many of her posts make me think about things more deeply than I normally might. That doesn't mean I agree with everything she says, just as I don't always agree with a lot of the things that get posted. And Goddess knows, I'm sure nearly everything I post has someone who disagrees vehemently with it, though for the life of me, I really can't understand why.

With that said, just because someone says something, as others have pointed out, that seems over the top or just plain upsetting, it's not a reason to assume that the majority of members here agree with it. And even if they do, majorities have been wrong in the past in all sorts of situations. Lots of people used to think the earth was flat, a minority knew it wasn't and of course they, the minority, were correct.

Please, to all of you natal female types who want to throw your hands up in disgust and just leave, please don't. We need you, who else would we look up to as models of civilized and decent and tolerant behavior. Like I said, I like Batty, but she doesn't speak for us all, nor do I think that she thinks she does. (Did that make sense?) Okay? Please?

Hugs...Joni Mari

battybattybats

06-04-2009, 01:44 PM

Okay, to chime in once again. I happen to like Batty and a lot of the things she says. Many of her posts make me think about things more deeply than I normally might. That doesn't mean I agree with everything she says, just as I don't always agree with a lot of the things that get posted.

Heck this was an IF/THEN exploration of an idea about honesty and possible double-standards.. in other words its only true if the if is true, rather than my opinion its a logical conclusion and that only if the IF and the causal reasoning is correct is it true.

If people don't like implications of it, especially ones I never stated or implied myself, then attacking me is just shooting the messanger. The hypothesis is either right or wrong. It's not MY opinion, it's the conclusion of a line of reasoning. If it's wrong I'm not wrong, just it!

Ad Hominems do not effect it's truth or untruth. And I'm not even saying it's true, just that I'm waiting for any argument that invalidates it!

Sonia Greene

06-04-2009, 01:50 PM

Sheila......as a dresser I appreciate SO VERY much any GG who can bear with us, be nice over it, rather than giving ultimatums.
I am single today, so no-one tells me how to behave.

But in the course of meeting women (GGs) as I do, (either in drab or dressed), who is understanding and pleasant--as opposed to critical, I would happily do anything for them, by way of thanks!
I find that Women (GGs) are invariably nice in situations outside.

It's often a lonely path to be courageous enough to take trouble to look presentable, then go out into the street of a town or city, which is not realised by many of the people who would criticise us......

I hope you understand my heartfelt appreciate comments.

Sonia

Deb The Brunette

06-04-2009, 02:05 PM

It boils down to this ...no matter what I/we do, I/we can't please all of the people all of the time .. so I tend to give up trying these days :2c:

.

Joni Marie Cruz

06-04-2009, 02:28 PM

battybattybats

06-04-2009, 02:46 PM

Hi Bats-

I was going to send this as a personal communication, but then decided to just go ahead and post it on the forum. First of all, I don't think anyone disagrees with your formal argumentation, an "if" hypothesis or proposition followed by a "then" conclusion. Your basic if A, then B argument. Of course the heat that follows is from the fact that what we're discussing, being TG/TS/CD, is an issue with such deep seated emotional and personal aspects that factors into it, that it's nearly impossible to discuss it in a "logical" manner.

Yes, perhaps it might be nice if we could (which is not to say it's not possible), but for all of us, especially for our spouses it touches on such deep and personal wells of love and acceptance and commitment that it's nearly impossible to keep emotion out of it. That, to me, at least, is why there has been so much deep and truly felt exception to what you may have felt was merely an idea tossed out simply for consideration. And, yes, I do agree, ad hominem arguments, attacks against you as a person, were wrong. Personally, as I have said before, I kind of like you and the way you think and certainly don't think you don't appreciate all the things the g-girls who are here on this site do for all of us.

Hugs...Joni Mari

I certainly agree that many GGs here and elsewhere do a great deal for the community which I absolutely do appreciate. And I agree the emotion is important too. The need to protect children and family is a crucial emotion, thats why I made the thread on ways loved ones can help protect their families on TG issues as ReineD suggested http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108592 and posted links to TYFA with their children-of-Trans-Parents group. And my actual thread mentions the obligations of a CD to their family in several posts, the genetic evidence effects their choices too after all. Emotions can be destructive too, like in internalised transphobia. But the more we understand about these issues the more we can ensure our emotions work for us personally, in relationships and as a community rather than in a harmful self-destruction.

cindym5_04

06-04-2009, 02:53 PM

Lorileah

06-04-2009, 03:12 PM

Damn I need to take a reading comprehension course. I don't get some of the points being made at all.

I get Sheila is hurt because she believes we don't appreciate her and the other GG's. I appreciate each and every one of the GG's who have the fortitude to post here and either support us or kick our butts. Here's my public apology if I made anyone think that. Mea Culpa. I didn't mean it ( I don't think but then I would have to read what I said to be sure). I have felt that same way (well not as a female but I try and see the female point of view) on other threads. Sometimes CD's make me very angry. I am a princess, I know it.

I get that Batty aggravates some people, but that s why there are mouse buttons, you don't have to read her posts. I enjoy arguing with and for Batty on many things. We agree to disagree frequently. I rarely read the "why does my wife hate me" threads but I do believe that if you are going to complain about being kept in the dark you have two options, turn on a light and get out or shut up. News flash, it isn't just the wife's fault! Look at things through her eyes once. Damn how many time do we need to post that?

Now as to all the other things posted here, I need more info because I must have missed something. As the saying goes, talk to me like I am 8 years old. Goes for this forum too.

battybattybats

06-04-2009, 03:17 PM

I think that one can always argue points of logic, scientific facts, hypotheses, and this and that study and say it's only this/that and if/then. Just like with compiling data and putting it into a computer and finding out the outcome, there's one point that's missing from all of it- the human factor. Studies, ethical logic (depending on which form of ethics you study and believe in), and other forms of data cannot, however, determine human emotion.

I thought neurology did, with all those loveley FMRI scans. Like the ones proving TS brains are wired differently, or that Gay male brains have emotional reactions closer to straight female brains?

I honestly believe at this point, the thread needs to go ahead and be closed because I can see from here on out that there's going to be more bashing and people's blood boiling more and more over this.

But if we ignore important things because they make us uncomfortable we'll never progress, never make things better. Uncomfortable truths do need to be faced once in a while, and that applies to CDs GGs and all the rest.

MOST of us agree that we do appreciate our SO's and the GGs that come into the forum.

Of course.

Everyone has a right to their own opinion.

But not every opinion is equally true to the real world, just truly that persons opinion. A differing opinion wont make the world flat or the moon cheese.

I don't feel, though, at the same time that waving around "my extensive studies in the field" and trying to throw an advanced education in front of anyone and make implications that we are not smart enough to discuss the matter helps at all.

I did not say that. My points were not 'arguments from authority'. But theres been plenty of anti-intellectualism bandied around. I've taken more punches to the face from anti-intellectuals than I ever did from transphobes. It's a bigotry too. I'm also self-educated I should point out and spent my life below the poverty line and have friends who are learning-challnged who I respect a great deal.

Seriously. Enough is enough.

Your right. Something as vitally important as this kind of subject, no matter how discomforting it may be, should not be derailed by ad-hominem personal attacks, anti-intellectualism or double-standards.

That CDs often still hide their CDing from their wives is equally challenging, equally complex, equally emotive and my thread pales into insignificance with the niceness of my actual points specially compared to the genuinely judging and critical posts often associated with that subject.

So far no-one has said one thing against my actual argument. And while most of the statements have been against me for things I didn't say or even at all imply if my exploratory argument is valid no matter what then we may have to come to terms with whatever those implications that do come from it are no matter how unsettling.

cindym5_04

06-04-2009, 03:29 PM

That CDs often still hide their CDing from their wives is equally challenging, equally complex, equally emotive

I absolutely agree with you on this. It goes back to what I was saying about honesty and relationships. I can't say it enough that I get SOOOOO tired of hearing complaints of "my wife is leaving me after x years of marriage because I told her I dress and she doesn't like it". To me, that would be comparable to someone going "oh and by the way, I know we've been married for 10 years, but I've been banging Mr. X for the past 15". It's pretty much the same thing- keeping secrets.

On the subject of neurology- while science can say the tg brain is wired closer to the female brain, science can't determine which emotional response itself will be triggered.

Side note: I come from a lower-wage-class also and just started college after being out of high school for 18 years. I can respect being self-taught. I've learned a lot by reading and from the people who I've surrounded myself with over the years.

battybattybats

06-04-2009, 03:41 PM

I absolutely agree with you on this. It goes back to what I was saying about honesty and relationships. I can't say it enough that I get SOOOOO tired of hearing complaints of "my wife is leaving me after x years of marriage because I told her I dress and she doesn't like it". To me, that would be comparable to someone going "oh and by the way, I know we've been married for 10 years, but I've been banging Mr. X for the past 15". It's pretty much the same thing- keeping secrets.

Thats a lot of my point on the original thread. It's called the honesty conundrum.. the riddle, the problem with insisting on honesty in one case but not others.

On the subject of neurology- while science can say the tg brain is wired closer to the female brain, science can't determine which emotional response itself will be triggered.

Oh well you might like to keep an eye on the new FMRI scan reports, they are getting a lot better than I think you've heard... they really are getting to individual emotions and even some individual thoughts!

Side note: I come from a lower-wage-class also and just started college after being out of high school for 18 years. I can respect being self-taught. I've learned a lot by reading and from the people who I've surrounded myself with over the years.

Absolutely!

I'm no elitist nor callous monster. And when people start looking at what I actually said not what they feel i might have said i think many people, maybe most, possibly all, will find themselves agreeing with it. Though even I find aspects uncomfortable and will have to consider it in some of my own choices. Nor do I even have a firm opinion on it yet myself. Though I'm still waiting for a contrary point that sticks. Which means till i do i have to consider it as so.

carhill2mn

06-04-2009, 03:57 PM

To all GGs, GWs, females-at-birth, etc., I would hope that any "T" girl that has a supportive SO on this site is appreciative of that person, as well as all of the other supportive SOs on this site. I know that I am.
I also realize that even the most supportive SO will have days where they wish "it would just go away". I am not one of those CDs fortunate enough to have had a supportive spouse so, I have great admiration for those SO that are able to "hang in there"!

Sharon

06-04-2009, 05:07 PM

One comment -- intelligence does not equal smarts.

One more -- bullshit is bullshit and it matters not the words you use to describe it.

Okay, I'm not done yet, but I really hate people who prattle on and on and on as if the most words used equates winning a debate. Thus, I stop here..., almost.

However, unless you have created the thread, I would prefer that people just make their point and move on. There's no reason to continuously repeat yourselves.

Rachaelb64

06-05-2009, 05:20 AM

I, speaking for myself, am glad for the support the GGs show us.

I'm not one these, 'Oh, woe is me you dont understand' types. I know it is hard & what it is like to have an unsupportive ex-wife, and yes I have made a lot of mistakes, not being honest to myself and those I love was the biggest one. One that I have corrected now.

So when someone offers a helping hand, I'll take it for good or bad.

So thank you for your support and the positive and negitive crictism, only that way do we learn and grow.

Rach :) x

Pink Person

06-05-2009, 05:45 AM

I will address the offending issue first and close with a direct response to this thread.

I don’t believe that disclosure of gender variance rises to the level of a moral obligation but I think it is a good policy to do it in relationships that might be seriously harmed by nondisclosure. Everyone has sex, gender, and sexual preferences for themselves and for their intimate partners. If your potential partners prefer to have a relationship with a masculine heterosexual male and you know that you are not such a person in significant ways then perhaps it isn’t wise to keep this a secret from them. On the other hand, there is really no harm done when you don’t announce your raging queerness to strangers on the street. Most of them probably don’t want to marry or move in with you for other reasons. It’s not a bad policy to limit your disclosure with them. So voluntary honesty is the best policy in some cases but not in others. Regarding the issue of gender variance there are no higher imperatives to consider.

P.S. Yes GG support is important and appreciated. Thank you to all of the supportive GGs who are active on this site.

cindym5_04

06-05-2009, 07:43 AM

This thread did make one question pop into my head, really it's a more food-for-thought thing.

How can we expect others (those around us) to understand us, when there are a lot of times that we don't understand ourselves?

I don't mean that as an overall group thing, I mean that more individually.

Joni Marie Cruz

06-05-2009, 08:17 AM

Hi Cindy-

Absolutely right on, hon. One thing about being TG, at least I think so, is that it makes us think about ourselves and examine who we are a lot more than most people. Hmm, maybe that didn't sound exactly right. I know quite a few people who think of only themselves all the time.<lol> That wasn't what I meant.

Hugs...Joni Mari

How can we expect others (those around us) to understand us, when there are a lot of times that we don't understand ourselves?

TGMarla

06-05-2009, 08:39 AM

How can we expect others (those around us) to understand us, when there are a lot of times that we don't understand ourselves?
I keep thinking the very same thing when it comes to trying to explain all this to my wife. How can I expect her to understand this when I really don't understand it myself? I just have a helpless compulsion to emulate and present myself as a woman, and it's been there all my life. It doesn't mean that I don't love her, or that I don't want to be her husband. I do. It's just that I also greatly enjoy being a woman as well. Go figure.

Kathielynne

06-05-2009, 10:14 AM

My wife doesn't accept my crossdressing, period, but I do what I have to do to be the best I can be for her and my family. Now, let's talk about why I may be the way I am; neglect as a child, strong mother, abuse...yada, yada, yada. The other alternative is shucking the old mortal coil...and I will yield this mortal coil to no one. A big phhtttttt to those who judge and criticize without walking a mile in this human's heels!

Kathielynne

sometimes_miss

06-05-2009, 06:05 PM

Disclaimer; this is just my opinion. But....in many relationships, there is going to be one person who's never satisfied with how much the other one is doing. While on this thread, it may be the CD'er who expects more and more of GG's, I once lived in a marriage where my wife was never satisfied with what I did. No matter how hard, or how long I worked, it was never enough; she always had a complaint about some chore that wasn't done yet, and wanted to know when I was going to get around to doing it. When talking to other guys, it seemed this was a pretty common experience, so I just 'lived' with it. Then when my wife found out about the crossdressing, well that was too much for her to deal with, along with my not living up to her standards, and it was over. In retrospect, it was blessing that it ended, or I'd have remained henpecked forever.

To the GG's here, who in any way tolerate or support us, thank you. To the CD'ers or TS who want more and more, try to get a little perspective, and be happy with whatever you can. Life isn't always easy for any of us.

Nicole Erin

06-06-2009, 12:39 AM

I think it is good that we have a few GG's here who are regular posters, it is good to get their insight about things. I have went to a few of the GG's here and said "Hey with this aspect of femininity, what would be the best way to..." And the ones I have asked have always been helpful :)

There is though, one particular GG on this forum who is a total pain in the ass, always complaining about her ex husband or what a problem us TG are, and I think maybe some of the TG here have seen her posts and maybe she is just the bad apple?

But like I said, the times I have asked for GG help here, they are always willing to help me.

OTHER POINT - people seem offended by some of batty's threads, and I really don't understand something -
does anyone actually read those long-winded posts?

Lilith Moon

06-06-2009, 06:18 AM

To the CD'ers or TS who want more and more, try to get a little perspective, and be happy with whatever you can. Life isn't always easy for any of us.

I suggest that you try replacing 'CD'ers or TS' in the above comment with other groups. Try 'black people' or 'women' for example. Doesn't seem so reasonable now, does it ?

does anyone actually read those long-winded posts?

Yes.

Sheila

06-06-2009, 08:16 AM

you know sometimes the pressure of being a supportive GG is tremendous, & I do not think some of you realise just how hard it can be :sad:

From my original post, I think even I had forgotten just how pressurised being a partner to a TG can be, I have become so comfortable with Debs, as Debs, that on Thursday when Debs was going out with only me, from my home and for the full day, for 24/48 hours previously she was getting herself into such a stew, I was continually reassuring her a) that she would be just fine & B) that if she decided at the last moment that she didn't want to do it, then that was just fine.

We eventully got out the door about an hour later than planned, I was so concentrating on metaphorically (and physically:)) holding her hand that I forgot to pick up a jacket for myself:doh: (it was threatening rain:eek:)

She drove the whole way to where we planned to have a picnic, and while we were sat ther and I was taking pics I was reassuring her all the time she was doing good, I even asked her if we could ask a lady who was just about to pass us if I could ask her to take a pic of us both, she said yes and another postitive experiance ensued while the lady chatted to us and took our pic ............ all the time we are out and about I am on tenderhooks waiting for that look, waiting for "that comment" just waiting to defend and protect while not drawing attention to us.

She did consider seriously going into the large city near where we were and going shopping but could not in the end do it, we however did go eat later on in KFC with some friends and took some more pictures.

She was tired by the end of the day but elated with what she did achieve, which more than compensated for the worrying I did on her/our behalf.

My worry was never for me, but rather that she would get a negative response that would put her back several steps. I will do all that I can/need to do to encourage & support her in her choice of activities now and in the future, I will encourage and educate people where I can without causing her any undue stress or cause my friends and family any either ............ for me I don't give a monkeys who knows but she does for the moment and I will respect that:)

BeckiB

06-06-2009, 08:36 AM

I am not really sure I can answer that but I do know I have a very supportive spouse. We support each other in everything we do, not just CDing. It is a commitment we made a long time ago. She new I had thoughts of cding before we were married many years ago but I never acted on them until a few years ago. We went and got makeovers done together and that was the first time I had dressed. We have gone to many events together and will go to many more. Together we have made many friends both in and out of this community. I guess we support each other because we care and want each other to be happy and feel loved.

Now I have seen others on here bash their SO's and I am not sure why but then again I don't live in with them. There are a lot of different types of people on here from all walks of life, with different thought, ideas and values. I think some come here for honest to goodness help to try and understand themselves or the SO. Others, this may be their only outlet, While others come to rant for a cause. Personally I am glad this site is here and I for the most part enjoy the people here. I am glad that there are many supportive GG's on this site and I am glad you care enough to post.

This is just my opinion and like ALL other opinions they are just that..an opinion not a fact.

Mary Jane1

06-06-2009, 08:49 AM

A lot of interesting comments. I just want to say, for the record I make a point of watching for GG posts or comments and I appreciate them all, whether I agree or not.

I appreciate the understanding and support some give, and I appreciate the effort those who don't understand give. I am single /divorced (not cd related) but when I find the S.O. for me, I will use much of the info I've learned from the GG's on here to help me begin and develop that relationship.

I'm very grateful you're here. Thank you.

Deidra Cowen

06-06-2009, 10:04 AM

battybattybats

06-06-2009, 10:42 AM

I suggest that you try replacing 'CD'ers or TS' in the above comment with other groups. Try 'black people' or 'women' for example. Doesn't seem so reasonable now, does it ?

This is a good point. Blacks, Aboriginals, Feminists and others often referred to it as 'settling for crumbs' where some would fawn over the slightest approval (especially from political figures who achieved little in practice) or where criticism of those giving any small amount of aproval or acceptance was condemned by others as ungrateful (often of said politicians).

Now I'm not suggesting thats what the GGs here are like, just sbout every one I've spoken to are truly fantastic people doing heaps and helping and accepting us far more than we are helping and accepting ourselves.

But quite a few people do seem to be suggesting they have a 'settling for crumbs' view, that we aren't worthy of or cannot get full and proper acceptance and just ought to be grateful for any crumb of toleration.

And that we consider the feellings of SOs as more important than the feellings of CDs when shouldn't they be equall important?

In cis-relationships thats dangerously low self-esteem. For TG people in general I doubt it's a good thing. Gays had the same problem bad a few decades ago, which is what the whole Gay-Pride thing was for, and it seems to work.

Yes.

Thanks :D

Kristen Kelly

06-06-2009, 10:45 AM

I know you GGs get upset from time to time. But don't forget you honestly are superstars here at the forum. The great majority of CDs here want your approval and friendship for validation.

I see that out at the clubs here in Atlanta sometimes. A CD will bring her wife along. All the other CDs/Tgirls will swarm all over the GG wife having the time of their life chatting with a 'real' chick that is accepting.

A few threads or stray comments are sure to get your goat but are not representative of the majority. Frankly I feel for you girls and know that in most cases you thought you were with a macho hunky guy...only to find out later he was hiding that he is a CD from you. That has to be painful, but you are to be admired for adapting to the situation. But hey you have the right to try to set down some fair rules for how it is all going to go where both parties agree.

I couldn't have said it any better. It takes a special person willing to overlook all the paint and polish and see that deep down we are more caring, a gentler individual than most men. We understand why you need 5 pair of black shoes, and why it takes so long to be ready, and never have anything to wear as you stand in front of a filled closet. I applaud all those women that not only accept us but also take an active roll in our lives. You can put a guy in a dress doesn’t make him a woman. Just as all in dresses don’t act lady like and that is where the comments come from that you object to.

Mary Jane1

06-06-2009, 02:38 PM

[FONT="Century Gothic"][SIZE="3"][COLOR="DarkRed"]I stopped posting on here because my words of encouragement were twisted into something of malice intent because someone else felt I wasn't supportive.

I stopped posting because it was assumed that my silence over certain situations was an admittance of some sort of guilt as oppose to respecting another's feelings.

I stopped posting because it often seems futile to shovel so much sh!t against the tide.

I'm posting here now to support my friends.

I'm posting now because, although I'm openly bisexual, it is MY right and MY right ONLY to tell anyone else. I do NOT ever hide my sexuality but it honestly isn't anyone else's business either.

I haven't been on here for awhile, but I always thought what you said was worth reading, and that you were very supportive. I'm sorry to hear some have been critical. I think most of us value the opinions of people who try to constuctively contribute.

As far as being silent to negative comments, I guess it might look like you're agreeing with them. I personally think that by responding to stupid or negative people, you only give credibility to their words. I ignore their comments & just keep taking the high road. Most of the people on here are pretty positive, I think.

Sarah...

06-06-2009, 04:12 PM

There is though, one particular GG on this forum who is a total pain in the ass, always complaining about her ex husband or what a problem us TG are, and I think maybe some of the TG here have seen her posts and maybe she is just the bad apple?

Um, if she's a bad apple why is she here seeking support?

OTHER POINT - people seem offended by some of batty's threads, and I really don't understand something -
does anyone actually read those long-winded posts?

I do.

Sarah...

Deedee Dupree

06-06-2009, 04:51 PM

There is though, one particular GG on this forum who is a total pain in the ass, always complaining about her ex husband or what a problem us TG are, and I think maybe some of the TG here have seen her posts and maybe she is just the bad apple?

Not a bad apple, she's a good egg.

Some folks are so much more sensitive and can be wounded very deeply... can take a long time to heal and we should be patient and understanding. There is no rule how long recovery should take.
It will happen as it will.

I'm not picking on you OK? Just my 2c.

dd

msginaadoll

06-06-2009, 06:27 PM

Some post confuse me. I appreciate the fact that the original poster is supportive of there partner. I also appreciate that the ladies who post here give a different side, opinion, etc. There story and views are just as valid as anyone else. However there also usupportive wives ot there as well. Guessing by what Ive read CDs probably outnumber their partners, wives etc here by a large margin. Therefore you probably will see a lot of complaining about them here. Hopefully you will also see some supportive words too. But I think reality has to play a part here at least for me.

janelle

06-06-2009, 06:54 PM

I for one understand just how hard it can be for you GG's. I have been upfront with my wife as soon as I found out I was trans. We have had many night & days of talking & in the end for me, she will not accept it. Yes we have it hard going thru what we do but I believe that those of you who stay with your spouse, try to help others here go thru a much biggie hell than most of us. I curtsie( I know not spelled correctly) to all of you & say THANK YOU so much.

Hugs & Kisses,
Janelle

TxKimberly

06-07-2009, 11:06 AM

tx kimberley ,

fing READ batty's post in loved ones , THEN let's hear from you.

yea , plenty mad and aint gonna take it .

think of us , your supporting wife and all we do. then we get kicked for not doing more ? f it !
spring

OK, I've now "fing" read it and I still don't see a cause for the GG's to all be mad as hell and acting as if it's time to throw in the towel because you aren't being properly respected or treated.

I have a great deal of respect for Batty and really quite admire her, so it is with a bit of hesitation that I admit that I think that post is a bit silly. Work toward TG acceptance - sure. Acceptance and tolerance is an admirable and desirable goal what ever your motivation.

The concept that we or our spouses should be willing to share our TG status with the entire world, or else we are hypocrites, is a bit much. The idea that if we agree that if a wife has a right to know, somehow by extension, the entire neighborhood has a right to know, is worse than silly. We have a great deal more responsibilities and obligations to our wives than we do to our neighbors. They have a right to knowing about our personal lives and our neighbors do not.

OK, so a lot of us think Batty missed the mark on this one. How does that Merritt all of the women on this forum suddenly reaching the conclusion that we don't appreciate them, and that they aren't wanted or respected?