When your out there !

[shirley1]

I wasn't sure where to post this but anyway I have done so here in this section. I would never ever try to put anyone off going out en femme, but there are things people should know, I live in England and have been full time now for almost 8 weeks (2 months) and I have to say I have had nothing but cat calls ie guys trying to chat me up, and sirs and mates instead of madams and marms, and guys shouting out to me on the streets 'are you a man ?' 'its a guy!' and the worst one today 'oh my god its a lady boy !' so I might move to Thailand and join a pageant or something !

Seriously all I ever hear on British forums is how its all about confidence, have confidence and you will pass, no crap I say its all about how you look and are perceived by people and I obviously don't make the grade.

The point of post is to say to some of you, don't get carried away with all the hype about how good it is out there, I don't know the states that well, but if its anything like Britain there are trans phobic people out there, who will go out of their way to try and belittle you. By all means come out of the closet but be very careful where you go, and if you don't have to go full time then don't ! Occasional trips out to malls ect are ok, but stay out of reach of ignorant people if you can !

[Anna the Dub]

I have to admit this bothers me too. I am building up to transition but I am nervous. I live in a fairly working class area (half council half private), and it does bother me what the Neanderthals around the estate will have to say. At the moment I am finding it harder and harder to present as completely male anymore (hormones darling!) so today there I was in Asda, wearing ladies cords and shoes, and all I got was people really staring at me, with open mouths. Bit off putting I have to say. I did get a couple of big, beaming friendly smiles too, but mainly just stares. When I fully change, I will be very nervous about reactions.

[shirley1]

I live in Birmingham also, Moseley, I honestly think that it depends a lot on where you live. I thought this would be a good area to transtion in, but I think I may have got it wrong, there's just too many different cultures here, and you never quite know who you are gonna run into.

If you,ve got a car it must be a massive help, that way you don't have to walk the streets and bump into all the chavs (trailerpark trash) but I don't have that luxery, I have to walk and bus it everywhere.

I love it when it rains then I can put my umbrella up and no one reads me then, and guess what, my confidence is still the same !

[Shikyo]

When I first started going out full-time, I was panicking almost all the time. No matter where I went I felt like someone knew what was going on. The longer I did it the easier it became. Now I can walk around almost everywhere just like I used to walk around before. Since I've become more "natural" in my behavior the life has felt so much easier. No one seems to care.

For example: Few days ago I went to Kela(the Finnish health care organization) and was asking about my card as my wife had receive hers, but mines was no where to be found. Of course, I looked like a girl. I was wearing a knee length skirts, open toe shoes, a girlie top and both my toes and nails were painted red and my hair was done in a girlie way. Not to forget the lip gloss I was wearing at that time. Anyway, I just went in there explained the situation just like it'd be nothing unusual. Despite my looks, I spoke of my wife as my wife and the person behind the desk could see in my details that I was a guy. There were no strange looks, nothing. The only difference seemed to be that she behaved nicer than when I went there as a guy.

So I've come into the conclusion the more natural your own behavior is, the more natural the people surrounding you will act. Be the girl you are! If you give an unsure feeling of yourself, the people around you will notice it, but without it they won't have any second thoughts about you and they'll treat you as a girl in all the good and bad parts.

[Altema]

Hello Shirley,

Responding to your forum post: I was surprised and saddened at your experiences while out in public. I had gotten the impression that England was THE place to be if you are transgendered, but I guess we can run into those types wherever we are. I live near Orlando, Florida in the US. Orlando seems to be much more tolerant towards us, even though the area as a whole is dominated by small-minded religious people.

From your photo, I would say that you look more passable than I do. Glad I don't live where you do! LOL. I don't know, maybe I have just been lucky, but in two years of full time, going everywhere and anywhere, I have never had a problem! Oh, I know I have been continually read, but most people seem, at the worst, to just ignore me. Some will grin a bit, but mostly I have been accepted - even if I have been read by them. The occasional sales girl or clerk will "sir" me, but I ignore it and act like I didn't hear it.

I hate to mention what you have already dismissed - the issue of confidence, or as I call it, attitude - but I truly believe it is my attitude that accounts for my trouble-free public roaming. Not everyone is in a position to adopt my particular attitude, but if you are, it seems to work beyond my wildest dreams.

Simply put, I do not have to hide from anyone - that in itself is a huge blessing. But what this means is I cannot be "outed" by anyone to anyone. I am who and what I am, and if people don't like it, they can look the other way. I go about my business as any other woman, and more often than not, that is what other people see - a woman going about her business. I smile at people and they smile back. Lately I even make small talk with cashiers and sales people without a problem. The main fact is that I DON'T CARE if they know I'm not a real woman - what are they going to do about it - tell my mother? (She's long gone).

Above all, do not hide! Act like you belong there, act like you do this (whatever) every day. Deflect individual remarks with a smile and a joke - "Nice adams apple you've got there, lady!" I answer, "Oh, thank you" with a smile and keep walking.
People expect to see a woman - let them! Rude, thoughtless people who make negative comments expect you to put your tail between your legs and run, looking crestfallen and embarrassed - don't do it! Don't give them the satisfaction!

I'm sorry this is so long, but this is one of the most common problems with us, and I would like to help any girl who suffers from it. I was, and am lucky - others are not so lucky. And of course if you regularly have to pass groups of young men on the street, even my attitude might not help. I hope you can gain or gather the strength to be yourself without suffering for it. We all deserve that.

Best Wishes,

Brenda Stewart






I wasn't sure where to post this but anyway I have done so here in this section. I would never ever try to put anyone off going out en femme, but there are things people should know, I live in England and have been full time now for almost 8 weeks (2 months) and I have to say I have had nothing but cat calls ie guys trying to chat me up, and sirs and mates instead of madams and marms, and guys shouting out to me on the streets 'are you a man ?' 'its a guy!' and the worst one today 'oh my god its a lady boy !' so I might move to Thailand and join a pageant or something !

Seriously all I ever hear on British forums is how its all about confidence, have confidence and you will pass, no crap I say its all about how you look and are perceived by people and I obviously don't make the grade.

The point of post is to say to some of you, don't get carried away with all the hype about how good it is out there, I don't know the states that well, but if its anything like Britain there are trans phobic people out there, who will go out of their way to try and belittle you. By all means come out of the closet but be very careful where you go, and if you don't have to go full time then don't ! Occasional trips out to malls ect are ok, but stay out of reach of ignorant people if you can !

[shirley1]

I don't know why so many people think England is so tolerant. Parts of it are ok I guess like London, but for a small island it has its Black spots ! No I would sooner live in Germany or Spain or Holland or somewhere, Englands still stuck in the dark ages, and yes I do have to pass young men everywhere, all in gangs, and most of them don't like trans girls, your threatening their sexuality of course. Then again my problem is I look like a she male apparently !

[VeronicaMoonlit]

(half council half private),

For the edification of us Yanks, "council" housing is what we call "public housing" in the US.

I'm sorry you're getting stares Anna. Wish that sort of thing didn't happen.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

[linnea]

So I've come into the conclusion the more natural your own behavior is, the more natural the people surrounding you will act. Be the girl you are! If you give an unsure feeling of yourself, the people around you will notice it, but without it they won't have any second thoughts about you and they'll treat you as a girl in all the good and bad parts.
__________________
I think that this is true, but we still have to be careful .

[shirley1]

For the edification of us Yanks, "council" housing is what we call "public housing" in the US.

I'm sorry you're getting stares Anna. Wish that sort of thing didn't happen.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.


Council housing in Britain means social housing ie renting off the state. I suppose you could call it close to ghetto land in some parts.

[Jessica Who]

Yea, it's quite unfortunate that things like this still occur. I hope one day that society will just let you be no matter how you dress.

[shirley1]

Nar I shouldn't slag Britain off too much, there are like everywhere else good and bad places. I'm just on a bit a bit of downer at the moment cause I went full time as a woman 2 months ago now, and its not going too well at the moment, can't slag a whole country off for that though ! (slag) urm do you know that term ? diss ! put down ect, there are worse places for a t girl to be like maybe Iraq !

[sterling12]

Yes, you kind of hit the nail on the head I think. I think your in a very "working class" area, and your having to deal with immature adolescents who haven't been taught a lot of manners.

I'll second the notion about Florida, we get read all the time, but people 99.9% of the time won't come up and confront you or "catcall." I've been in bars when people are very "forward" and come up to you and ask a lot of questions. I have had young males say a lot behind my back, but then usually some sweet young thing comes up and "tells on the boys," and expresses her displeasure with their childishness. It's the usual for them to hang around and make "girl talk," so I am assuming that they are not antagonistic.

My guess is that it's your area. I agree with some of the others. if you can, move to someplace where people are better educated and have some manners. It's a simple formula, "more education.....more couth.

Peace and Love, Joanie"

[ReineD]

Shirley, my SO & I have a friend who is transitioning. She felt she was a CD all her life until the last few years. I believe she is in her late 40's. She lives in a rural area in the Midwest.

She fortunately began a new job with a progressive company at the same time she began to live full time as female. But, in her early blogs, she wrote of having to give up many relationships. Former bosses and co-workers that she considered friends distanced themselves. She treasured the few people who did not shy away from her. She is rebuilding her life with new people now, but it has been difficult for her. She was determined to put her best foot forward and make it work, while thoroughly appreciating the opportunity to live as a female.

She also mentioned having received some disparaging remarks and stares, but she did not let these incidents prevent her from moving forward. She is very tall and her features are average to the more masculine for a GM.

It takes a lot of courage and the need to develop a tough skin to transition in our society, especially for TSs born with the more masculine facial & body features. I hope we all will do what we can to help society rid itself of its bias. In the meantime, you have all my :hugs: :hugs: :hugs:

[Anna the Dub]

If you,ve got a car it must be a massive help, that way you don't have to walk the streets and bump into all the chavs (trailerpark trash) but I don't have that luxery, I have to walk and bus it everywhere.

I do have a car, and that will make it far easier when I do transition. As I said, I am already finding it difficult to pass as a male, lots of searching looks, but nothing has been said yet. Of course, I don't really have to deal with people on buses or at bus stops or around the streets, I just hop in the car. Walking around my local shopping area (Bearwood), I got lots of looks but no one said anything. No chance, Shirley, of you getting a car yourself?

[Gabrielle Hermosa]

Sorry to hear that, Shirley.

I live in the States, and don't quite pass either (don't let my carefully chosen photos fool you). In public, I get read quite easily... and even laughed at. :(

It's not very cd-friendly where I live, and most people think of us as something to laugh at, make fun of, and even cause harm to. It is dangerous to get out en femme around here, but can be done if I'm smart about where I go.

I'll get laughed at again, and probably other kinds of mistreatment. It's not fun, but I'm not going away. I may not venture out as often as I'd like because of this treatment, but it's not going to keep me stuffed away in my house cowering with fear or anything. I won't be able to change how society views/treats us if I hide away all the time. ;)

[Sandra]

We live in the UK and have been to a lot of places here and have not had much trouble. Of course you are going to get stares, it's a natural reaction for people.... and there's going to be the comments, my SO and myself have gone through all of this. How do we cope? mostly just ignore them, if you show it concerns you then they are going to stare more or carry on being verbale, one thing I tend to do is let them know that I've seen them stareing by making a comment that they can hear to my SO along the lines of, " did you see them stareing at us" and then stare right back at them, most of the time they don't know where to put themselves and trundle off head down looking at the path.

I have to say though for us it doesn't happen very often.

[Gizmo, Debbie]

Hi Shirly1, i'm not a million miles from you up in Scotland.
I to am going full time, since February, and like you i've had the morons shouting it just the same things to me as you have.
Yes it does dent the confidance a little but to hell with them!
I AM RIGHT...YOU ARE RIGHT...WE ALL ARE RIGHT and they are all just imature a**eholes.
If i was going to follow the crowd i would have been a sheep! instead is was born an individual so that is what i am going to be...an Individual!
I don't know about you but a quote i read some place says "I would rather be hated for who i am as liked for who i am not."

:hugs:

[Annie D]

Altema.....I didn't know that you had my picture on the wall of your house?

Once you appreciate the fact that perhaps you don't look as feminine as you wish but just try to be confident and natural, going out does become easier. Like someone mentioned, you just have to be careful about the places that you go. Most likely, on occasion, you may get a comment of two but if you keep moving and mind your own business, you should be okay.

[cindym5_04]

I think it all depends overall where you are and what people happen to be around at the time. Living here in DC/Northern Virginia (USA), there are times that I've been out and been flirted with and everything has been just fine. There have been other times that I've had negative things yelled at me and pointing out that I'm a guy in a dress, etc, just like you were saying has happened to you. SOME things boil down to confidence. I don't believe that it all does. People are judgmental. I don't think it's any different, honestly, even after someone fully transitions- people are still going to think, at times "that girl looks like a guy...i bet it's a guy". It's just human nature. I'm not saying that it's right, I'm just saying that's how it is. Everything is not always going to be rainbows and ponies.

[lesley jay]

Hi Shirley i am sorry to hear about your experience you must really be hurting. i am english so know how the people there can be.somehow try and remain posotive.

[MsJanessa]

the ladies on this forum have heard me say it often enough---- only a very small percentage of us will "pass" under close scrutiny---and of that percentage, most will "pass" as drab ho-hum looking women---the most passable CD I know passes as somebodies maiden aunt---overweight and dressing like a small town librarian. The way to pass, if you can, is not to attract too much attention. Once you glam and glitz it up, your chances of passing(ie going unnoticed) are dramanticly reduced. And lets face it most of us are too tall, or too heavy(but not necessarily fat) or have the wrong facial features or voice to pass as GGs. That doesn't mean however that we cant be attractive CDs--some of the prettiest CDs and TSs I know don't pass but they are beautiful. For my money I would rather be thought of as a "hot" cd/tg than a drab, ho-hum GG. What I'm looking forward to is the day when we can walk down the street and be accepted for what we are without harrassment or negative judgment. I hope I live long enough to see it. Just my 2cents.

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Shirly, honey, fwiw, I get read all the freekin time. What matters, and maybe this only works for me, is I don't care anymore. The stupid remarks and the looks, well, f*ck them. I mean, really, if I let how others feel about me run my life, how in the world would I ever manage? This sounds awful and very un-femme, but the vast majority are a-holes anyway. There, I said it, and it felt good.<lol>

OMG, I am being such bitch this morning. Girl, I know it's hard, but just be yourself, no matter what. You will be happier in the long run.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[cindym5_04]

shirly, honey, fwiw, i get read all the freekin time. What matters, and maybe this only works for me, is i don't care anymore. The stupid remarks and the looks, well, f*ck them. I mean, really, if i let how others feel about me run my life, how in the world would i ever manage? This sounds awful and very un-femme, but the vast majority are a-holes anyway. There, i said it, and it felt good.<lol>






amen!!!

[Kristen Kelly]

It takes a lot of courage and the need to develop a tough skin to transition in our society, especially for TSs born with the more masculine facial & body features. I hope we all will do what we can to help society rid itself of its bias. In the meantime, you have all my :hugs: :hugs: :hugs:

Yes you do have to be thick skinned for those people that don't totally pass, myself I feel I "blend well". Women come in all shapes and sizes take a seat at local mall and watch the parade go by. I have a GG friend we are exactly the same size right down to her size 11 shoes, I have larger shoulders but blessed with the hips to offset them. We had been out with friends and she was mistaken for one of us girls, here's a gg that always doen't pass, but I always welcome her out in any bar for she aways has my back, and would never want to be in a bar fight against her. Our minuses are always a plus just thave to look for the half full glass.

[karynspanties]

You know, I read here all the time about passsing. Alot of gurlz say it's your attitude. You know what? That's a load of crap!! If you look like a man dressed as a woman, you do not pass. Period. You may or may not get ridiculed. That's the way it is. Some areas of the states are more transgender friendly than others. But the bottom line is that if this is the road you intend on following........be prepared for some rough patches. Some may even have huge potholes!. Now what really gets my panties twisted is how I have personally seen lesbian couples where one is definately butch, dressed in male clothes, male hair cut, trying to be a MALE and nobody even pays attention. I mean don't get me wrong, it's great, but again, what twists my panties is the fact that nobody pays attention to this, but if a guy walks around dressed in womens clothes...........OMG the world is going to end!!

[Shikyo]

You know, I read here all the time about passsing. Alot of gurlz say it's your attitude. You know what? That's a load of crap!! If you look like a man dressed as a woman, you do not pass. Period. You may or may not get ridiculed. That's the way it is. Some areas of the states are more transgender friendly than others. But the bottom line is that if this is the road you intend on following........be prepared for some rough patches. Some may even have huge potholes!. Now what really gets my panties twisted is how I have personally seen lesbian couples where one is definately butch, dressed in male clothes, male hair cut, trying to be a MALE and nobody even pays attention. I mean don't get me wrong, it's great, but again, what twists my panties is the fact that nobody pays attention to this, but if a guy walks around dressed in womens clothes...........OMG the world is going to end!!

I don't think any of us said just having the right attitude is enough to pass as it is not. Having the right attitude just makes it easier to pass. You walk around thinking you are a guy, despite the girlie clothes you will behave like a guy. Instead walking around thinking that you are a girl you will also behave more girlie. We all aim to "pass"; we all also had times where it just wasn't possible.
When you look around when you are walking one can see rather masculine looking girls that really are girls. Does anyone annoy them, no.

In the end, what is passing? What does it really mean? A genetic male will never be able to pass as a girl 100% in all situation, it is just not possible, because of the chromosomes his carrying. Having a an F in your ID card while having a human created vagina, is that passing? I don't think that is the point of passing at all. Passing should be nothing else that you can enjoy what you are the way you are dressed without people annoying you or giving nasty comments at you. All those people you pass outside, most of them you'll never even really see again, so what is the point of actually caring if they really think you are a girl as long as they live you alone and treat you nicely.
Because of this I think the attitude you have is a big part of if you can pass or not. If you can't behave naturally in femme clothes, you cannot really pass ever no matter how girlie you look like. The body language is a big part of our lives, we all have learned how to read it, even though no one has thought it to us. When someones unsure or nervous or whatever it can be often read by many other people. That leads to complications and nasty comments as the other people think they are better than you are etc. So to pass as a girl one has to look "passable" with that I mean there's not five o'clock shadow, using feminine cloths etc. also the body language has to fit the sex you are representing as the body language is different for males and females, if you haven't noticed.

What I'm trying to say here is that even if you are a genetic girl and you would totally behave like a male someone would suspect her being a crossdresser, even though she isn't one.

[Kristen Kelly]

I don't think any of us said just having the right attitude is enough to pass as it is not. Having the right attitude just makes it easier to pass. You walk around thinking you are a guy, despite the girlie clothes you will behave like a guy. Instead walking around thinking that you are a girl you will also behave more girlie. We all aim to "pass"; we all also had times where it just wasn't possible.

In the end, what is passing? What does it really mean? A genetic male will never be able to pass as a girl 100% in all situation, it is just not possible. . Passing should be nothing else that you can enjoy what you are the way you are dressed without people annoying you or giving nasty comments at you. Because of this I think the attitude you have is a big part of if you can pass or not. If you can't behave naturally in femme clothes, you cannot really pass ever no matter how girlie you look like. The body language is a big part of our lives, we all have learned how to read it, even though no one has thought it to us. When someones unsure or nervous or whatever it can be often read by many other people. That leads to complications and nasty comments as the other people think they are better than you are etc. So to pass as a girl one has to look "passable" with that I mean there's not five o'clock shadow, using feminine cloths etc. also the body language has to fit the sex you are representing as the body language is different for males and females, if you haven't noticed.

What I'm trying to say here is that even if you are a genetic girl and you would totally behave like a male someone would suspect her being a crossdresser, even though she isn't one.

You said what I've been saying all along a guy in a dress is a guy in a dress. When I'm dressed and most times even in "DRAB" "I am a WOMAN." I can be out in nothing more than woman's jeans, my own long hair, no makeup be acting and presenting myself as a woman and get missed and maamed. Is that attitude maybe, but I feel I belong where I am, dressed as I am, and act like I do. Treat me as a woman. I have had an arregant guy call me "sir" and a young GG get in my face as to why I shouldm't be doing this, can't say it didnt rattle me a bit but made me stronger and easier to handle the next occurrence. I think it is more the confidence I have than the attitude that makes it easier to step out and me myself. I know if I wanted I could go fulltime, my mind is in the right place my look good enough to get me through, but at this point I feel I am not driven enought to make the commitment to handle all the possible problems, with a few more benifits I don't have now.

[gennee]

One thing I've learned is that you meet all kinds. Living in New York City, I've heard everything from 'ma'am' to 'sick' and everything in between. It's doesn't stop me though.

Gennee

:)

[shirley1]

Hi,

Part of the problem is accepting yourself I think I have now today finally. I went out earlier and did andro, ie probably looked male, well mens jeans and jacket, but other than that all female clothing including breast forms, yes I forgot to take them out ! Then again I have got a nice pair of AA sized one's going on now anyway thanks to hormones.

The woman serving me in the local shop recognised me, I had a hat on instead of a wig ! She said you look much better as a girl ! Ok so I took it as a compliment I mean I obviously look like a guy normally. You do have to be tough to live this life full time that's for sure, I thought about this some time ago, to pass convincingly as a woman you would really have to struggle or not be able to pass as a man, there is no in between, males and females look different, and clothes alone won't change that completely they might well help a bit and confuse a few people.

But ultimately people see what they see, and you can't really change that, but most people are ok, I don't get too many problems to be honest, its just that I made a decision to go full time, including working as a female and I didn't stop to think about how some people might react towards you in everyday life, I just thought I looked good enough to pass really well, and perhaps I do compared to some, but some can read me, look at it this way have the confidence to go out there and change societies expectations is a gift, if you can do that then progress is being made, and it will only change if some of us have the guts to do something about it and get out there !

[DaphneGrey]

I am sorry to hear you are having such a difficult time right now, I guess your feeling a little let down right now, I know those feelings and they suck! For once I have no advice but I know where you are coming from. :hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs:

[Lorna]

I have not attempted to go out, let alone "pass" (which I certainly couldn't) and this is because, even if I set aside the likelihood of being seen by someone I know followed by all the consequences for me and my family, there are just too many potentially risky places and people around. I live in a rural, peaceful part of the UK but travel frequently all over Britain including the major cities. I never worry about assaults, confrontations, etc. but even as an unremarkable male, I frequently see people I would want to keep away from and I am aware of plenty of areas I would think twice about going in to, especially at certain times of day. Even in the area where I live, I am conscious that the populous generally are very intolerant - of minorities of all kinds. I hear plenty of unpleasant comments (of the kind that would be actionable if published) about everyone from the French or Americans to "coloured" or Asian or gay or....any group you care to name. It's one thing to encounter such primitive views when one is in a position to ignore them and walk away but there are plenty of people (mainly young-ish, males and females, who in the right circumstances (often drink or drug-fuelled) get pleasure from actively seeking out targets for attack, usually verbally but all-too-often physically. Such targets would undoubtedly include crossdressers,

The UK may give the impression of being multi-cultural and tolerant but, sadly, the reality "on the street" is very different. I would not want anyone to be hurt because they believed the rhetoric and failed to take precautions.

[Sheila]

Debs did her second trip out in daylight Thursday, the first time we went out we went with friends (who are forum members here), to a very busy garden centre, we wandered round looking at things, I took pics of her in the garden centre, we ate lunch in the resturant (very busy), was she "MADE", yup, as one friend and I were stood in queue to collect our lunch, Debs and the other friend went and sat at a table waiting for us, Debs was spoted by a lady a few tables away who did stare, Debs just looked back and smiled, the lady had the good grace to look away, we were spotted/made a few times that day, partly because we did walk around hand in hand most of the time, but not once we any of us subjected to rudeness, hostility or any negativity.

Thursday Debs and I went out for the day, the hardest part for her being getting from my house to the car, after that the rest of the day was realtively simple (unless you count her taking 4 wrong turnings something male Debs would not do:heehee::heehee:), we had a picnic where we got engaged in January, we choose Thursday for Debs to recieve her ring from Sheila, & while we were there, we talked to a lady who took the picture I have as my current Avatar, as we chatted I introduced us as Debs and Sheila, she took our pic and offered to take another at a slightly different angle ........ did she "MAKE" Debs I am sure she did .......... did she give a damn, nope she did not, did she makes Debs's day ............. she surely did, others people passed by us walking their dog and close ........... about 4 feet away did they see us, yup and smiled a friendly smile, no double take, no smirking, nothing other than a polite smile.

We then met our friends and went to KFC to eat at around 5pm, nobody screamed, stared, or made us feel uncomfortable, not even the group of six tennagers who came in and sat at the table next to us just as we finished our meal, they did not even so much as glance at us (or DEbs and our friend), as we left.

pictures of those incidents on Thursday can be found here Debs's (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1746341&postcount=1)