Passing.....but what do you bring to the game.

[LA CINDY LOVE]

Cd's are always asking what is it that helps you to pass better.....most say you need to have confidence........some will say it is all about attitude or dress to blend in and you have some that say passing is not important it is all about self expression and being your self or I do not care what people think...and both of these are true for some and those Cd's who think this way truly have a gift that we all should have.....but sorry we all do not.

But what physical asset do you have to help you pass.....it takes more then a wig, good make-up and a nice dress and shoes to pass, if you have strong male features, voice, looks, height muscular built even hands and feet and lets not for get the adams apple......to many of these features.....in a dress and you will get read.

Let take a look at Asian Cd's, almost all Asian Cd's pass very good, they have what I call a soft look....slim built, soft voice and look with a nice height....they have a lot going for them to help them to pass.

Now lets say you are out in drab at the mall and a SA calls you ma'am....not only dose that put a smile on your face...but a good sign that you have a soft look, now if you are out dressed up and the SA calls you sir......that is not going to set well with you.

My conclusion is if you want to pass better then what physical asset do you have to bring to the game......and remember women come in all shapes and sizes.......and I do know that passing is not a game.


LA CINDY LOVE

[jasmine57]

I've had many people tell me I have girly legs and since I started wearing shorts again with shaved legs have had a few compliments on them. I don't believe it but that's what I'm told. My legs are the only thing I can bring to the female table though. I wish I had more but I'm working on it.

[Gabrielle Hermosa]

Let take a look at Asian Cd's, almost all Asian Cd's pass very good, they have what I call a soft look....slim built, soft voice and look with a nice height....they have a lot going for them to help them to pass.

I really wish I was Asian! Seriously - I've always thought Asian women are the most beautiful, and I do see most Asian cd's looking the most passable.

But I'm not Asian... just a white mutt (mix of nationalities) trying to pass as a female white mutt. :heehee:

I maintain a strict exercise regimen and watch my diet in an effort to stay slim and have a small waist and nice legs. That benefits me.

On the flip side, I'm still doing my upper-body workout. In years past, I was very muscular (not huge, but noticeably muscular and pretty intimidating looking). I am not so bulky now, but still have enough muscle definition from my shoulders to my mid-arms to effectively kill my feminine look from most angles. :( I bet if I stopped all upper-body (bulking) exercise, I'd be more passable. Somehow, I'm afraid to stop though. I worry about the day when I may need my increased physical strength to fend off an attacker or something. Probably just paranoia about venturing out en femme, I'm sure. I'd like to not look like Gabi the pro-wrestler though. :heehee:

Aside from man-muscles, the ever increasing signs of aging hurt my femme-appearance greatly. Started using some of my wife's facial creams lately, but I really need a face lift (or much better creams). :sigh:

[xAnne_Mariex]

Asian girls are stunning, I love each and every one of them lol

But i'd probably say my face, so many people (in guy mode too!) tell me I have a young girly face and I suppose wearing make up and my wig brings it out even more.

I'd maybe say I almost have the look to pass sometimes, but none of the confidence lol

[Carole Cross]

There is only one feminine feature that I have, or should that be haven't got and that is my adams apple does not show. Everything else is masculine at the moment, I am hoping that when I start on hormones some of them will become more feminine.

[Joni Marie Cruz]

As a beauty, I am not a star;
There are others more lovely by far;
But my face, I don't mind it,
For I am behind it:
It's the people in front that I jar.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[Karren H]

I'm pretty much asset-less.. Lol.

[Tracy_Victoria]

Cd's are always asking what is it that helps you to pass better.....most say you need to have confidence........some will say it is all about attitude or dress to blend in and you have some that say passing is not important it is all about self expression and being your self or I do not care what people think...and both of these are true for some and those Cd's who think this way truly have a gift that we all should have.....but sorry we all do not.

But what physical asset do you have to help you pass.....it takes more then a wig, good make-up and a nice dress and shoes to pass, if you have strong male features, voice, looks, height muscular built even hands and feet and lets not for get the adams apple......to many of these features.....in a dress and you will get read.

Let take a look at Asian Cd's, almost all Asian Cd's pass very good, they have what I call a soft look....slim built, soft voice and look with a nice height....they have a lot going for them to help them to pass.

Now lets say you are out in drab at the mall and a SA calls you ma'am....not only dose that put a smile on your face...but a good sign that you have a soft look, now if you are out dressed up and the SA calls you sir......that is not going to set well with you.

My conclusion is if you want to pass better then what physical asset do you have to bring to the game......and remember women come in all shapes and sizes.......and I do know that passing is not a game.


LA CINDY LOVE

Real woman come in all shapes and sizes, there are masculine females, and efeminate men so physical looks do play a part and do present a problem. but the secret to passing is to blur your own gender, to look more like the other.

I've always said passing can be judged on using a point system, ie if you score more Female points, (than man ones) by wearing good clothes and items and accessories to match, a good wig, (that doesn't look like a wig!) Can fake a bust, then your well on the way to passing with ease. (but it is a confidence thing as well) ie you score even more points for having a mind set to think and walk and act like a woman.

if you don't look good, your caked with make up, have big hands, and your general dress sence poor, and you have a shabby old wig on that looks like a wig, then you will never pass with confidence, but maybe okay at distance.

the secret to passing is to look lika a female/male in the first place, and if you can't do that, then cast doubt by looking more like as masculine female, (or a efemanate male) than a male in drag. ie there are men out there that look very feminine, but are males. and there are females out there, that do look masculine, although there birth gender is infact that of a real female!

[sissystephanie]

Let's see..........Natural 40 B's, girly legs, medium body build, small, almost feminine hands. Do I need more?

That said, since my wife is no longer here to fix my wig and do my makeup, I don't even try to pass. But I do dress and go out in public! As was stated in the opening post, I am one of those who has confidence, attitude, and a feeling of knowing who I am! I am a CROSSDRESSER!!:love:

:hugs::hugs:

[Kathi Lake]

Hmmmmm. Most of the GGs seem to rave about my legs. I think they're sticklike. Apparently, they like mine better than theirs even though theirs have those wonderful curves. My body is kind of feminine - small bone structure, etc. I'm very, incredibly, frighteningly skinny. I wear a size 0 or 2 skirt or pants! From the waist down, I'm a goddess (except for the plumbing, of course :)). Go any higher, and you'll find a wide trunk, linebacker's shoulders, lumberjack arms, and a face that a mother could love - after a fifth of Jack (hmmmm, maybe that's why we always had so many empties on trash day :)).

As I said in another thread, confidence is what gets me through. Not the confidence that I look like a passable, beautiful woman, but the confidence that I feel what I'm doing is not only right for me, but perfectly acceptable for the world at large.

Kathi

[Dita_B]

I would say your posture is the most important thing to bring to the game... Think about it...

When you see a woman walking down the street in a distance, you'll know instantly whether or not she's a woman, long before you can see if she has an adam's apple, a bad hairdo, or no clue about applying makeup...

What makes that she identifies as a woman to you?

Her frame, her posture and the way she moves...

So first of all, if you want to make a flying chance on passing, you'll have to have a very critical look at yourself in the mirror, from all angles, especially from your back and determine what the most important differences are between what you see in the mirror and that woman in the street... Pay specific attention to the bulging that occurs under your arms and around your back on the top of your bra, which is made for a female frame and not for the much larger male one...

You'll have to realize that you are born with a male frame, which means large shoulders and small hips... Now, to start with, you'll have to chose your clothing such that it will hide, or at least greatly masks those male features.

If you have broad shoulders, don't dress in a tank top... If you have manly legs, don't wear a mini skirt... If you have a protruding adam's apple, wear turtle necks and no low cut items...

And, most important of all, go sit on a bench in a mall (in drab) and study the movements of the women that pass you by, such as the way they move their hips when they walk, how they hold their arms and hands, how they place their feet while walking, to just to name a few. Than, go home and practice in front of the mirror and repeat this all until you've got it down to a science and a second nature.

As soon as you can pass as a woman for a guy that looks at you in the distance... with the help of a good friend, for instance, you are on the right track... If you don't pass in the distance, you've got no hope in hell to pass on close up, despite all the makeup in the world and you'll be at the mercy of the tolerance level of those you encounter...

That is the short of it, all according to my own experience. And, btw: your length has NOTHING to do with it... There are girls that are way taller than the tallest girls in your wildest imagination, and nobody will think they are guys just because of their length...

The only drawback when you are tall is that you catch more attention, that's all. But if your posture reflects that of a woman, you've got the battle already half won...

I include a link here to a site with an animated study between male and female body movements... I have learned a whole lot from it and I think some of you can do that too... Just click on "BML" walker and than on "lines" and move the slider from male to female on the walking stick figure and observe!

BTW: this is German engineering! So it's researched to the "T"...

http://www.biomotionlab.ca/

So far my 2 bits... Good luck to you all!
:love:
Dita.

[Dana Lane]

I worry about the day when I may need my increased physical strength to fend off an attacker or something. Probably just paranoia about venturing out en femme, I'm sure.

martial arts! :)

[julie w]

there is no real answer all of us are different some of us are very male
looking some of us are not , IMHO the thing CDs do that gets themselves
noticed the most are we tend dress much nicer than you average women
with a wig that has to much hair that often doen,t match you natural hair
and skin color and age and the number one way to much make up

[msginaadoll]

I guess I would say the fact that I dont have much that stands out. I am five ft 8 with a fairly small build. I have smallish hands for a guy, and not to large feet- wear womens size 9. my face is generic, not a big nose, square jaw, etc. Not a large adams apple. A voice that sometimes gets confused for female on the phone. Been told that I have nice legs and a fairly big booty for a guy. I guess the fact that Im average helps me!

[sissystephanie]

I'm pretty much asset-less.. Lol.

Karren, I think a lot of us on this Forum would love to look as good as you do. I know I would!!

:hugs::hugs:

[Carly D.]

For me.. nothing really.. I was thinking about this these past few days and while I say I just like the way the clothing feels regardless of passing it would be great to feel that somewhere in the world I might pass even remotely as it might be.. my most fem feature would be my fake boobies.. I now have a B cup form fitting bra and the cups seem HUGE!! but I've never worn revealing clothes, because if I did what would be revealed is I'm a guy!! and so I wear fairly square looking chick clothes.. in my vision I see myself as one of those unpopular girls from highschool or the less popular girl at work.. something like that.. I do wear pantyhose and have shoes that I really like, and these are anything but square (most of them are quite nice, I've even seen others here wearing the same shoes).. but I try to be as a wall flower as they call them.. less standoutish and more fade to.. you know?? try not to garner the spotlight.. that's it.. anyway what I bring to the game is jacks, a ball, and a few marbles just in case you want to play marbles instead...

[Rachel Morley]

I agree with a lot of what Dita wrote. I myself am pretty lucky. I'm only 5ft 4ins tall, I'm slim and weigh 130lbs, I take a US women's size 8 (UK 6 1/2) shoe, I have small hands, and my Adam's apple doesn't show at all. I had a makeup lesson recently from a professional TV make up artist and she said I had quite an oval face for a guy :) Yet despite all of this, I can still look manly if I don't pay attention to my body movements. That goes for posture when standing still, as well as when I move. If you can, watch women (or your SO if you have one) watch all those little movements and gestures that she does. Like perhaps she has long hair and tends hook it behind her ear, or maybe she "plays" with the end of it in her fingers (my wife does both of these). Then there's how she sits, stands, hold her hands etc. All of these things can go a long way to giving some powerful non masculine (feminine?) signals that help tip the balance in your favor (masculine signals verses feminine signals) when added to nice clothes and of course .... a good wig and reasonable makeup. :2c:

[TxKimberly]

I'd agree with quite a few things I've read here, including Dita's comments about posture and bearing. The irony is, at least in my case, the ideal male posture is actually almost identical to the ideal female posture. In both cases, you should stand up straight, shoulders back, gut in, and chest out. Classic US Army posture, but believe it or not, it's also the best when femme. The only real difference is that may want to try and hold your arms in a little closer to your body in femme mode than you would in boy mode. Men usually hold their arms out a bit in what I suspect is an unconscious attempt to appear larger - something you clearly don't want to do when trying to pass as female.

It's in how you walk, it's in your gestures, it's probably in dozens of things that none of us even realize.

It would also be silly for us to not admit that some of it is in the looks and features that you were born with. It's sure as hell gonna be a lot easier for the petite Asian y'all mention to pass, than it would be for the 6 Ft 6 basketball player or line backer. In my face, I do have relatively feminine features. Not only do i not have the large and square chin so popular in drawings of GI Joe, but I don't have a chin at all! Ever notice you never see pics of me from the profile? :D

Even for all of the comments I just made, acting like I might have some of the answers, you have to remember something - I get read every single time i go out. Do you really want advice from me on how to avoid it? :D

[Sophie_C]

One thing I do want to give to the overall picture is that you can try your best, and should try very hard, but also realize that without getting your weight in the proper female range, having hormones run through your body for years, laser hair removal, and potentially even surgery, there will be an underlying masculinity present, making it impossible to strongly "pass."

There is a way a woman's shape is, as a result of the way fat is settled there via hormones, and just as much, even the bone structure is affected by it to a fair degree. There is a way a woman's body gains curves through the same fat distribution that you won't have. Even your arms, legs, fingers - any part of your body will be affected by it, and the older you get, the more the testosterone will leave its mark. That's why the younger a woman transitions, the more she looks GG.

And, no way you dress or apply makeup will change that, even if you had the best people in the world working with you on it. Let me give you an example, Phillipe Blond, a NYC fashion designer (attached photos and video here (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/954873/phillipe_blond_is_a_foxy_fashion_designer_amp_an_a lpha_kitty/)). He/she does has done an amazing job with his/her appearance, of course having a little help of the best of the best makeup artists, designers, etc.

But, even though he/she knows to make sure to present his/her hair to cover her jawline, since the shadowing diminishes it, the masculine jawline is still present, and even though he/she has made him/herself rail-thin, it's not the same as when a woman is rail-thin, given the way bodyfat distributes itself, hip shape, etc.

I'm not meaning to be negative, at all - just realistic on how things are.

Passing fully, in any way, is impossible without transitioning, and even if you do that, it's not guaranteed, especially the older you get.

So, just factor that in, when it comes to your interactions with everyone. And, be hard on yourself if you care to, but realize there are limits on what even the best of the best can do, without substantial change to themselves.

[Nicole Erin]

Dita made a lot of good points about movement and presentation. If your looks leave people wondering "is that a guy or a girl?" but then you start acting as a natural woman would, people will just think "woman".

It is true that there are some TG who have no chance of passing whatsoever, but that is very few of us.

For what I bring to the table -
I have never had a very visible adam's apple, even when I weighed 150 pounds when I was 16.

My legs look very good and are just not real muscular. My butt is OK, er, so-so. My feet are kind of gender-neutral looking, Femme size 11 USA

My arms are larger but soft. My hands could be a man's or woman's. Can be made to look very pretty.

Face - I really don't know there, but I don't think it is very masculine, probably more of a butch dyke looking face. I also tweeze my beard, 2/3 of the beard hairs are white so it is easy to hide now. Wearing my hair a certain way helps. Eyebrows are perfect. High cheek bones.

Build - mesomorph, meaning larger frame but soft.

Skin - dark complextion. Very pretty with a tan.

Now for the bad news about me -
still working on voice, movement/presentation, narrow hips, and shoulders that would scare Peyton Manning. Nose is a bit strong.

People talk about this or that surgery to pass but most of what one has to do to better pass as a woman is stuff that money is either not needed or just cannot really buy.

Presentation/mannerisms, sense of style, train your voice,...

I know for me, I still have a lot of work to do. I am not even close to realising my full potential and I don't imagine most TG are, which is good news, it means if you are doing "ok" right now, there is room to grow and improve and become great. :) BUT, it takes getting off one's butt. Therein lies my problem...

[Sophie_C]

I did forget to mention mannerisms, posture, tone of voice, even choice of words, all of which take years of consistent (aka 24/7/365) use in day-to-day life for it to become as "natural" as natal women who have been through that already. That's all not possible without fully transitioning.

It is also worth saying that I have seen women with my own eyes who have transitioned who 99.9% of people could not tell the difference. It just shows how much more is involved in truly 'passing' than, say, a weekend hobby can accomplish.

[joann07]

I agree with a lot of the great points that many of the girls made.
How you present and carry yourself definintely is key to passing or blending in and to do that you have train and practice being naturally female.

One thing to passing, which is very important, is developing your fashion sense. If you're content at dressing at home, or in the closet, then it doesn't matter what you wear, but if you want to go out in the general public, and not only on Halloween, then you have to know what clothes are appropriate to wear at a particular time and place, what clothes are in style, how to mix and match, what age range you fit into, what clothes would look right on you (not assuming that what looks good on the supermodel will look good on you), etc, etc, etc.
You wouldn't want to be caught at a mall on a Saturday morning or afternoon wearing a cocktail dress. Why? Because everyone else is wearing casual clothes. It's things like this that, if you don't dress appropritately, you get read or spotted.

Another thing about passing that I always stress is to never overdo things because people will notice if something doesn't look or seem right.
For example, there are those who say that in order to walk female, you should walk with one foot in front of the other and shake those hips.
That's fine if you want to look hot and sexy on the cat-walk at a fashion show, or while competing in a pagent, but if you watch how a typical woman walks, she doesn't normally do that. Her walk and posteur isn't that much different than a guy, as what Dita and TxKimberly pointed out. It's those subtle tells or differences in her mannerisms that people automatically pick up on that clicks in their brains telling them that she's a female.

Same goes for your femme voice.
Me, I know that my voice is not a %100, but my overall presentation and how I conduct myself more than compensates for it and so when I interact with ordinary everyday people they don't seem surprised when I talk to them.

Before I used to be real hesitant to talk, but now I am so comfortable with my feminine self that, even though my voice is still a work in progress, I can speak without feeling nervous.

As I constantly observe women, I realize that there's more to it than just speaking softly and with a higher pitch or tone. There are GG's who have deep manly sounding voices, but we know she's not a guy. Why? Because, IMO, it's the differences in the way she talks, how she says her words, and her body and facial expressions.

As guys, we typically talk in this continuous monotone deep voice pattern, but if you listen and watch carefully how women talk, yes they speak a little softer, but they also vary the tones and pitches of their voices, their choices of words are different, and they have a different pace and rhythm in the way they say things. In addition, women tend to gesture with their hands more and show more facial expressions when they're speaking.

When a woman asks a question, says hello, orders food, talks on the phone, or is having a pleasant conversation, or whatever, I am constantly picking up every tiny detail in what she does because I realize that I have to have a good understanding of the overall picture.
Yes. One can have that perfectly soft pitched sounding voice, but if she doesn't combine that with those other things then people will automatically know she's a guy trying to disguise his voice as a female.
I've got a pretty good handle on most of those things, but I'm still trying to find that right pitch or tone.

The same goes for how you eat, how you sit, how you dance, how you stand, how you sneeze, how you get excited, how you cough, how drink from a cup or bottle, how you pose for a photo, how you shake hands with someone, etc, etc, etc. In other words, you basically have to do an about face and be a completely different person from your guy self.

If you can pay attention to every tiny detail in a woman, study them, and practice practice, practice....then you'll understand the big picture in how to sucessfully pass. And once you've practiced it enough times, you'll be more confident in yourself and won't have to think about it because things will just come naturally.

Hugs!

[windycissy]

As I've said before, like most things in nature, it's a bell-shaped curve: a small percentage of us will never pass under any circumstances, an equally small percentage could be mistaken for women without any effort, and the rest of us have the potential to pass if we do all the things already mentioned by the other girls combined with a positive attitude and above all confidence!

[LA CINDY LOVE]

How many of us have seen a woman and thought to our self she looks manly.....but we know that she was woman just because of the way that she carried her self.... now this is the point that Dita has made.......and a very good one.

Now if this woman who looks manly can do it their's no reason why we Cd's can not do it, like Tracy said " the secret to passing is to blur your own gender to look more like the other" that is why you have to take GG 101, like a lot of Cd's do and say you have to study women, watch women and learn how women act and then you have to practice.

I do not believe that you have to go through transitioning to fully pass.....I have seen some who have and pass very good and some who do not.....but I have also seen some Cd's who pass very good....and a lot who do not.

Now if you have more feminine asset then male then you are off to a good start......but if you walk like a man, act like a man and think like a man...in a dress...then guess what?


LA CINDY LOVE

[Barbara Dugan]

Really ...I never been too manly and I agree you have to feel like a woman to try to pass better its not just the clothes but the attitude:hugs:

[Gabrielle Hermosa]

I worry about the day when I may need my increased physical strength to fend off an attacker or something. Probably just paranoia about venturing out en femme, I'm sure.martial arts! :)

Actually, I took martial arts training in the mid 90's. Excellent discipline and my exercise routine still incorporates several of the warm up exercises from the class. I'm way out of practice now, but can still handle my own if need be (against an untrained fighter, anyway). Just don't ever want to have to do that en femme!

On a side note, our master used to bring in street fighters for us to practice on during sparring night from time to time. We trained in a very tough neighborhood and these guys were very intimidating to go up against. We sparred full contact - there were not points, it was an all-out match (stopped by the master if need be). Amazing how easily defeated most of these street fighters were. Very sloppy fighters. Oh, it hurt when they landed a punch, don't get me wrong (got a lot of black eyes, and broken bones even), but they were never very good fighters. Good to know when fighting in real life circumstances. ;)

[Nicki B]

Let take a look at Asian Cd's, almost all Asian Cd's pass very good, they have what I call a soft look....slim built, soft voice and look with a nice height....they have a lot going for them to help them to pass.

But they don't often pass to other Asians - who often find it much harder to gender Caucasians.. It depends from where you're looking.


I'm pretty much asset-less.. Lol.


I guess I would say the fact that I dont have much that stands out.

IME, a 'neutral' canvas often makes it much, much easier to change the look drastically.


Passing fully, in any way, is impossible without transitioning, and even if you do that, it's not guaranteed, especially the older you get.

So you can only pass if you transition???? :eek: I know plenty of girls who have transitioned who might disagree with you...

Precisely how are you defining 'transition'? To me, it simply means living fulltime in your necessary gender..

[Patricia1]

Passing - the gold standard for crossdressers. Dita & Kim did a great job in summarizing what we need to do to tone down our "shortcomings". Obviously, the fewer male genetic features you have that make you stand out as a man will serve you well in passing. There are some things you can do to compensate but frequently the bar is just set too high. The most important intangible thing you have going for you is, of course, attitude. If you feel you belong, most times people will just look right past you or just shrug. Smiling puts people off their guard & is disarming. Smile as much as you can but don't overdo it. Look at other women and smile & nod. Do not look at men. They don't need any encourgaement. Play down your male features. Nail polish helps large hands but keep them curled as much as you can. Just go about your business and other people will do the same. I think I'm lucky to have soft features and a somewhat "pretty" face with a feminine bust. Compare & contrast with the females you know & you'll have a fighting chance to "pass". Just remember - with most of us it's fourth & long.

[Melanie R]

I have been out in public as Melanie for over 28 years. I do not think about passing but put my energy into trying to be the woman I am between my ears. Sometimes I enjoy educating others about our wonderful community. Many times I just want to either with my wife or alone blend in to be seen as just another aging woman who dresses like most other women. There have been instances of passing such as when my wife and Melanie went on a 7 day cruise together with no male clothes and Melanie 24/7. We were put at a table for six at the 8 PM dining time in the dining room with two couples from Scotland. Almost immediately they asked if we were sisters. Yes, we are sisters. They noticed our wedding rings and asked where our husbands were. No just the two of us wanting to enjoy 7 days together. No more questions except about where we were going on shore excursions, etc. Of course I also recall the times when I was "read" and asked why do you want to dress like a woman and all the other questions usually asked from inquiring minds.

So much of passing is your own acceptance of yourself and also trying to blend in with the other women you encounter when you are out in public.

[Sarah Doepner]

I tend to forget the slights, the "sir's", the stares and double takes. I laugh at myself and try not to question any more my motivation for doing this and just do it the best I can. I'm described myself before as being too tall, with big hands, nose and square face, but I try to enjoy myself.

I may not pass very well, but if I can pass by before they start to talk about me, that may be good enough.

[SweetCaroline]

I think plain and simple, it's the smile. There's a huge difference between a male smile and a woman's smile.

If you're looking for one physical aspect that anyone of us can achieve, I think that's it.

[vikki2020]

At 5' 6", my height works well for me, but my main asset has to be my legs.Attitude is also important, and to tell the truth, the shorter the skirt, the better my attitude!Blending helps, but when I go out in a longer skirt, I just don't have the same feeling.Maybe the legs are my camouflage, and I can use them to hide the parts that aren't that femme.

[Sophie_C]

How many of us have seen a woman and thought to our self she looks manly.....but we know that she was woman just because of the way that she carried her self.... now this is the point that Dita has made.......and a very good one.

Now if this woman who looks manly can do it their's no reason why we Cd's can not do it, like Tracy said " the secret to passing is to blur your own gender to look more like the other" that is why you have to take GG 101, like a lot of Cd's do and say you have to study women, watch women and learn how women act and then you have to practice.

I do not believe that you have to go through transitioning to fully pass.....I have seen some who have and pass very good and some who do not.....but I have also seen some Cd's who pass very good....and a lot who do not.

Now if you have more feminine asset then male then you are off to a good start......but if you walk like a man, act like a man and think like a man...in a dress...then guess what?


LA CINDY LOVE

Nope, I fully disagree.

Eve Salvail, a model with her notoriously shaved head in the 1990s still looked feminine with that, because her neck was feminine, the angles and details of her head were feminine, her lips, cheeks, etc - were all feminine, all a result of the estrogen that ran through her veins. Your underlying body is so strongly a part of what you are, that it'll always stand out.

But, being fair as ever, I challenge you to bring me an example of a girl who has not transitioned who looks 100% "passable." IMO, without biological changes, there is no way a woman can ever come off fully as a man (as I just showed you) and no way a man can come off fully as a woman. Oh, they can try and be part of the way there, but you're always going to have a tremendous amount of the population instinctively knowing "that isn't a woman" since we're wired to just know those things.

[kellycan27]

Small in stature, girly figure (implants and hormones) small hands and feet,long hair...

[LA CINDY LOVE]

Sophie you said early in one of your post " Passing fully, in any way, is impossible without transitioning, and even if you do that , it's not guaranteed, especially the older you get......but to say their is no way that a crossdresser can pass.....is not only unfair but it is not true I have seen and meet a few Cd's who not only pass fully but live 24/7 as a women,

You need to understand that their are some Cd's who are that good that they do not need to go through transitioning to pass.

LA CINDY LOVE

[Sophie_C]

Sophie you said early in one of your post " Passing fully, in any way, is impossible without transitioning, and even if you do that , it's not guaranteed, especially the older you get......but to say their is no way that a crossdresser can pass.....is not only unfair but it is not true I have seen and meet a few Cd's who not only pass fully but live 24/7 as a women,

You need to understand that their are some Cd's who are that good that they do not need to go through transitioning to pass.

LA CINDY LOVE

I am being fair. Give me an example and that'll be it.

You can dig up anyone in the course of history, anywhere in the world, anywhere on the internet. Even if you want to spend weeks or months working on it, go right ahead.

I have never seen a crossdresser who did not transition, who was passable. I've seen some who have done a fantastic job, but even the best of the best will be noticeable to many, many people.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to be proven wrong (and know how someone could pull it off), but there's always countless things the body gives away.

So, saying "some Cd's who are that good that they do not need to go through transitioning to pass" proves nothing. You're just repeating what you said on the previous post. Showing me it, will. So, go right ahead if you're that certain, since it should be rather easy to prove, no?

[curse within]

I don't get it?? I'll take a stabb at it but I am sure I'll miss the point..

Ok so you say most CDers want to pass.. I beg to differ, but that's soley my opinion.Let me elaberate if you will..,,, because I really think I am missing the point.

First off ,no offence I respect you and your opinion and I am not out for arguement sakes.

One, most CDers are not out to pass, where did you get that info from? Most here yes I agree. However most Transexuals are , average Cders are not out to live their life as a female let alone try to pass as one. This takes years in the making and is something that takes time and needs to be enhanced.......( most mind you).. However some do relize at a young age thus promoteing less effort ..

Two why would you want to pass ? Other than doing just that what have you proved? You tricked mother nature?,, I am sorry as I am sure I will get negetive responses from this,, I just don't understand unless of course you are a Transexual and you know you where born as the wrong sex..Nothing wrong with that all you Transexuals so no need to get pi**ed this was posted in the mtf forum ..

[noeleena]

Hi . some interesting info here .
i dont see many andro.s here .. so . there are a few of us . yet for some of us how are we seen .. do we. ill just use the word (( pass )) how do we live .. as a male or female . for me i am not a dresser or a transsexual. allways andro .. wired both male & female . i never saw my self as male . allthough my body said in many ways male.. yet passable as a female .. i am not talking about a young girl . yet i was told i was different . a woman who knew me from the 60.s .. i was told that . two years ago . plus a guy i worked for 4 odd years ago . same thing .
so having said that . its been there all my life .. not some thing i strived for. just me ...
Now i live as me a woman .. for me the most important detail is being accepted .
how i walk . & manerisms . make up most of the time nil . just lippy . what i do see is . i am open . i think as a woman . my attatude is i am a part of our community . being a part of that . being in women.s groups .. no changeing from one to the other . being natural .,. just being that other woman . i have been told i pass.. yet i dought it . may be i do . just not the looks side of things .. you see there is more going on that we miss . in being a woman well some of us any way
. i was out walking on sunday with dejarn our grand kid . i said morning to 15 people . most of the women said hi . .. get this. with smiles so normal a greeting. a few of the men said hi . some i got a mumbled morning .. quite a bit different . so what is it . women talk to me . some men cant . thats the difference.. why .. they have never seen me or know me ..yet the women oh so different ...i wear a skirt . justa winter top . with a jacket boots . for out walking . so i must pass . no prob.s ..what youll see here is we as women do things differentlly .. so many of the comments here are right .. some times.. dare i say it.. ..you need to be a woman to see what really is going on ...remember i see it from both sides ..does not mean i.v. got it all right .just some .... any way a thought ........
...noeleena...

[LA CINDY LOVE]

Sorry Sophie, but I do not have any photos of those Cd's and they are not high fashion models so there photos would not be on the Internet and if I did have photos how would you know it was of them?... there are always exception's to the rule.

No I am not saying most Cd's want to Pass But what I am trying to say is what do you have as a Cd bring to the table to help to pass if that is what to work for.....but a lot of Cd's are in the closet because they feel that they can not pass and I do not feel a CD is out to pass just to fool mother nature.

LA CINDY LOVE

[curse within]

La Cindy, I know what you mean but you have really touched on something that really should have meaning ..I feel anyways..Off course my opinion and way of thinking is not to apreciated here..

To start , the biggest subject in this part of the forum is the on going effort to pass or to go out while dressed and pass.. Now common sense tells us the better we pass the more of a pleasent outing we will encounter, correct?

So given the above the question is ,,do we want to pass because of our desire to dress and be seen as a female to lesson the odds of a hate crime? I would think the answer would be yes , but many of us can not pass because growing up and living most of our lifes as males , nature has gifted us our male features in time..

Now if you have lived you life as a female from a very young age chances are you would have no problem passing. I know I am not telling you something you don't already know but within the spectrume and ALL due respect to those who fall into the spectrume, this is where the labels come into play..

A crossdresser is not likely to pass although some really do a great job at it, A T.S. is more likely to pass depending upon the amout of supression with acceptance through out the T.S.'s life .. A Crossdresser would more likley become a T.S. later in their life when it becomes to depressing to continue to live thier life as a male. So to me when reffering to a crossdresser , is simply reffering to a person who has a fetish with the clothing of the sex not born as. This person has no desire to become female or go out dressed to pass ..

Thats just my opinion Thanks Cindy for the interesting thread:)

[LA CINDY LOVE]

Curse Within that is also what I hear about crossdressers just a fetish to wear women clothing, dose not want to be a woman and dose not dress to pass, also they are usually straight males..........So are we really crossdressers if we want to pass.

LA CINDY LOVE

[curse within]

La Cindy, I was curious to know tha myself ( not out placeing labels )..But it is a damn good question " why do we want to pass"? If you are just a crossdresser ( by you not saying you in general ),,why would you want to pass or go out to be seen if crossdressing is a fetish.. I am sure there are many reason as to why this thread was started... I am interested in seeing some of the post for the reasons why some want to pass..

Thanks La Cindy

[tricia_uktv]

La Cindy, I was curious to know tha myself ( not out placeing labels )..But it is a damn good question " why do we want to pass"? If you are just a crossdresser ( by you not saying you in general ),,why would you want to pass or go out to be seen if crossdressing is a fetish.. I am sure there are many reason as to why this thread was started... I am interested in seeing some of the post for the reasons why some want to pass..

Thanks La Cindy

Because we care about it and we want to do it to the best of our ability. We want to get as close to the dream as we can. We maybe have a chance to get there fully if we transition, but that's a big step with no guarantee.

Oh, my best feature? I have the body of a supermodel. Skinny guys do have some advantages.

[Carly D.]

I don't get it?? I'll take a stabb at it but I am sure I'll miss the point..

Ok so you say most CDers want to pass.. I beg to differ, but that's soley my opinion.Let me elaberate if you will..,,, because I really think I am missing the point.

First off ,no offence I respect you and your opinion and I am not out for arguement sakes.

One, most CDers are not out to pass, where did you get that info from? Most here yes I agree. However most Transexuals are , average Cders are not out to live their life as a female let alone try to pass as one. This takes years in the making and is something that takes time and needs to be enhanced.......( most mind you).. However some do relize at a young age thus promoteing less effort ..

Two why would you want to pass ? Other than doing just that what have you proved? You tricked mother nature?,, I am sorry as I am sure I will get negetive responses from this,, I just don't understand unless of course you are a Transexual and you know you where born as the wrong sex..Nothing wrong with that all you Transexuals so no need to get pi**ed this was posted in the mtf forum ..


Passing for me would be THE it of show for me.. do I want to pass?? that would be nice but on the rare occasion I would like to try to wear makeup to be able to give that extra effort to pass.. however to my own self be true, I don't like makeup and don't have any eye makeup, just lipstick and nail polish, which doesn't sway anyones opinion of whether you pass or not.. hmm.. lost my train there... anyway as far as acting fem, I don't think fem is my attributes as fem.. I'm not even close to being fem even when dressed.. it's a strange thing for me.. I'm not typical cross dresser in that respect.. I don't want to think that passing is important but to go out without a wig or whatever to try to pass would be a mistake... or would it be?? I would like to try to wear what I want, which would be to dress full from the waste down but from there up be wearing normal male attire.. but in podunk Ne. that would be akin to a good beating by the local tough guy club.. cowboys, y'all..

[curse within]

La Cindy,

I am sorry if I have taken control over your thread but I really have a interest here..That being how many are really willing to do as you asked in the O.P. what do you bring to the game?..

I would like to thank those who have answered ..To be fair I will answer on my own question.. Yes I have tried make-up and wig but never left the comfort of my home.. question at that time ...Could I pass...Maybe ,,, but seriously doubt it... Would I want to? Great question as I thought through the pink fog ....No...thoughts ran through my mind all the what if's...What if some guys found me attractive ( doubt that ) but what if? How would I handle that? I'd have to hurt them ...answer.. I thought if I went out I would be asking for trouble ..Just the clothing I had on was asking for trouble.. Hey being honest...old school maybe...everyone should dress how they feel fit but I was beyond that..

[LA CINDY LOVE]

Curse

I have meet and seen all kinds of Cd's at the clubs, I have meet a lot that only go out to clubs because they do not pass......they do not have that much to bring to the game........but they are out of the closet, there are a lot of Cd's who are in the closet who bring more to the game them they know........but they stay in the closet.....the difference here is not game but confidence.

Every Cd's can go out to clubs if you have game or not, but if you want to go out and about in the day........this is were you need some game, confidence, attitude or the gift of not caring what people think or say.

It come down to just what is it that you as a CD want to do.

LA CINDY LOVE

[Sweet Cindy]

Head up, shoulders back and when you walk, try to imagine you're lighter than air. Women move so differently and it's hard to emulate. I think that's one of the hardest parts of passing.

I'm of slim build, short and have high cheekbones but overall my face can be pretty masculine. So attitude and movement are key.

[curse within]

La Cindy , I have to admit going to a club has crossed my mind and please don't get me wrong anyone, I am very happy for those who do get the courage and leave the comfort of home, be it a club or just a drive.

Not that I am chicken that I will be made,,no,,,, and not that I deny myself any urges to be seen.. Just thinking it out , do I want xdressing friends ? No ..not in preson, online yes ,miles away never seen great but not that close.

I think I have learned to deal with my dressing to keep it just that..My dressing.. I have grown to keep it private without the urges to go out .. This is not a mean statement in any way .. I could have a crossdressing friend and not even know it as many have no ideal to me... So I really do not bring nothing to the game I suppose if it came down to it..

[Deidra Cowen]

I know a totally passable CD that works as a guy, no surgery or hormones. Elaine from NC. Not going to say her last name here on a open forum but people that go to SCC probably know who I am talking about and for sure a bunch of us in Atlanta know her since she comes here a lot.

The girl passes...flat out...voice, looks, mannerisms...the whole package.

I see a good number that pass on looks, but most of them have male voices...so in all fairness they don't pass totally but are darned close!

Go to Be-All or SCC...at those conventions some of the girls will amaze ya! They are the minority but out there...and no I not am talking FT girls. PTers



I am being fair. Give me an example and that'll be it.

You can dig up anyone in the course of history, anywhere in the world, anywhere on the internet. Even if you want to spend weeks or months working on it, go right ahead.

I have never seen a crossdresser who did not transition, who was passable. I've seen some who have done a fantastic job, but even the best of the best will be noticeable to many, many people.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to be proven wrong (and know how someone could pull it off), but there's always countless things the body gives away.

So, saying "some Cd's who are that good that they do not need to go through transitioning to pass" proves nothing. You're just repeating what you said on the previous post. Showing me it, will. So, go right ahead if you're that certain, since it should be rather easy to prove, no?

[Nicki B]

I have never seen a crossdresser who did not transition, who was passable. I've seen some who have done a fantastic job, but even the best of the best will be noticeable to many, many people.

I have - but most of them eventually go on to transition (by my definition, that's living fulltime as a woman - what is yours, taking hormones?). I'm not going to post names or photos, because they're not members here - and photos can't ever tell you who 'passes' anyway. It's much more about what one projects from inside.

It's worth remembering that passing (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87757) is understood in different ways by many here - perhaps you'd give your definition?

And finally, IMHO, passing is over-rated (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69957).

[linnea]

Physically I can't claim much of anything.

[Berinthia]

linnea!!!
Don't forget, part of the mystique, the mystery, the glamour, is the art of the tease! Not where you are, but where you want to be.

[linnea]

linnea!!!
Don't forget, part of the mystique, the mystery, the glamour, is the art of the tease! Not where you are, but where you want to be.

Yes, thank you, Berinthia. I can muster some of those qualities--lol!

[LA CINDY LOVE]

La Cindy , I have to admit going to a club has crossed my mind and please don't get me wrong anyone, I am very happy for those who do get the courage and leave the comfort of home, be it a club or just a drive.

Not that I am chicken that I will be made,,no,,,, and not that I deny myself any urges to be seen.. Just thinking it out , do I want xdressing friends ? No ..not in preson, online yes ,miles away never seen great but not that close.

I think I have learned to deal with my dressing to keep it just that..My dressing.. I have grown to keep it private without the urges to go out .. This is not a mean statement in any way .. I could have a crossdressing friend and not even know it as many have no ideal to me... So I really do not bring nothing to the game I suppose if it came down to it..
Curse

Why is it that you only want to have CD friends online only......is it a passing thing ....... are you uncomfortable around crossdressers or is it that you just want to keep your crossdressing to your self.

Finding and seeing a Cd that can pass fully is a hard pill to swallow and is indeed a very small minority.........but they are out there.

LA CINDY LOVE

[KateSpade83]

Passing is also partly dependent on a real good wig! When I didn't have a good wig I was read a lot!

Then confidence... if someone laughs, looks at you strangely, or looks questionable about you your comfidence will sway them into thinking you're a woman... happened to me several times!

[lottarosie70]

i've often said i am only passable from behind. part of that is due to my hair...it is long, and has been for most of my life, so it is not uncommon to be called "ma'am" when someone comes up behind me. imagine their shock when i turn and they see this stocky bearded fellow smiling back at them.

you see, i don't actually feel i should have been born a woman, and i never really felt that i had the ability (or the need) to hide, disguise, or eliminate my masculine features. i do love wearing women's clothes, though.

however, i did dress for halloween 2007 as a bearded lady, and apparently it IS all about attitude and presentation. even people who know me well had to take second and third looks, and i overheard one disgruntled woman complain that she had thought i was "...a real woman with a fake beard!" also a great many comments by all parties that i walked really well and looked really good in the heels..."better than me" was the reaction of nearly every GG who said anything to me. (some said i was "too good" at it, which i took as a compliment.)

i modified my walk slightly (four inch heels leave little choice there) but otherwise was just me...in a skirt, blouse, stockings, heels, and appropriate underthings (breast forms included) with matching makeup and nail polish.

so what do i "bring to the game" of passing? casual confidence (i moved thru my day like any other day, like it was no big deal.) comfort with what i was wearing (been crossdressing for almost 3/4 of my life, well over half of it without guilt or shame, and i had walked in those heels quite a bit already.) oh, and long hair; got lucky there, i guess...too stubborn to cut my hair off, and have been fortunate to work for companies that don't try to force the issue.):daydreaming: