Pent-up anger?

[battybattybats]

In one controvertial thread (which does not need reviving!) someone suggested there was a lot of pent-up anger here.

That is actually to be expected if we follow the trends of other oppressed groups especially with internalised oppression such as internalised transphobia. And in many other communities it results in factions within them being very hostile to other factions, a destructive internecine struggle.

So do you feel you, or CDs in general have pent-up anger?

How do you deal with it if you do?

I find with some things that anger me, including a few TG issues, that i direct that anger into doing something to change things. So I write letters and emails and blog and article comments, in as calm a tone as possible, to try and change things, from Dr Zucker's TG child-torture to the guy who on radio said he'd hit his son with his shoe if he ever CDd. Afterwards I feel better, especially knowing that such acts aren't a waste of time as I've seen more than a few get results.

For other things there's violent videogames.

Though sometimes I find i'm resisting CDing unconciously again, that indeed is pent-up anger and find facing that and CDing fully calms me down as the anger came from the internal conflict in the first place.

[Miranda-E]

In one controvertial thread (which does not need reviving!) someone suggested there was a lot of pent-up anger here.



I think there is a lot of pent-up anger here, and on CD sites in general. Most of that anger comes from sites actually being a step backwards in terms of oppression and diversity from CD life on the outside.

[AmandaM]

I think it's cause people are people. I'm a conservative right-wing Christian gun-nut, think Ann Coulter, a personal hero. Being also a CD'er/potential TS, this doesn't give me much in common with many of my "sisters" and we fight. What can you do? Try your best to remember that we're all different, yet linked. I disagree with Batty on almost every point, but she's my sister here so I give her a break.

[curse within]

Batty I do feel the anger, this is suppose to be an open forum to discuss all areas in the TG spectrume.
It appears to me due to an over whelming amont of a certain spectrume being the majority here are sensitive to others negetive feelings pertaining to transphopia.
If we are all supportive as a whole then strength in numbers will provail, if we fight amoung the ranks then divided we fall. It is painfully obvious how few can be bashed by twisted and turned words without understanding. In short this makes the minority feel ousted to go agaisnt the grain of popular belief making you an outsider and then the finger pointing starts. You become branded as a basher in a place you felt had use for you and you might have fit in.

This is a shame when a group becomes secure in a comfort zone to accept no new changes or Ideals, to become like a soceity that created the very one they are becomeing a closed door soceity..

[Deidra Cowen]

Funny...I always thought of this forum as a happy safe little haven on the stormy sea that is the internet.

Anger? Sure a bit...but you want to see a ton of fear and loathing...go to some of the forums for online games and such!

Most the anger that does get stirred up here is at the hands of agent provocateurs that are having a bit of fun and completely know what they are doing. (for example the thread/post about the unattractive CD at the store that got laughed at)

I get the idea you (Batty) enjoy stirring it up a bit, probably a bit too much. But I respect your obvious intelligence. I am guessing a super high IQ. So you are very very clever and run circles around most here....even if completely wrong on an issue in my opinion, it does not slow you down...you are a heck of a debater.

[Lorileah]

I think there is a lot of pent-up anger here, and on CD sites in general. Most of that anger comes from sites actually being a step backwards in terms of oppression and diversity from CD life on the outside.

How so Miranda? Do you think that sites like this actually push people deeper into the closet? It raises an interesting point that Batty has touched on many times. I was so hoping that with the issues Batty raises that more people would "come out" but I can see your point. Are sites like this just sniper points?

Anger? Here? Dammit Batty why do you keep pushing my buttons? It angers me that you think I am angry. Ok kidding :)

Yes there is a lot of anger here and often it is misdirected. It is my opinion that most of the anger should be directed at why we still feel that who we are and what we are doing is wrong. Then when our SO's (who we have kept in the dark for years) raise any questions we redirect our anger, usually at them and then we run tail between our legs begging everyone on this site to be on our side.

Personally MY anger comes from the people who don't want to do anything about it except hide. It angers me that some ask for acceptance but don't try to be who they are outside of the sneaking around dressing when no one can see. You cannot ask your SO or anyone in society to accept you if you don't accept yourself.

OK I have my Flak vest on...let's hear it

[Miranda-E]

How so Miranda? Do you think that sites like this actually push people deeper into the closet? It raises an interesting point that Batty has touched on many times. I was so hoping that with the issues Batty raises that more people would "come out" but I can see your point. Are sites like this just sniper points?


I don't think they push people into the closet, but off sites. Many sites have an agenda of defining crossdressing to onlookers and pushing those that don't meet that vision off site.
While those crossdressers and there SO's can function fine in social circles not online. There is no balancing protective measures on websites like there are out in the world.

[Joni Marie Cruz]

I used to be angry, now I'm just amused. Okay, it's the sort of amusement with just the teensiest bit of anger that sometimes makes me want to slip off my 5" hooker pumps and smack someone in the forehead.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[Ralph]

I think sometimes it's not so much anger as plain old disagreement. BBB, you (and others) have said things that I thought were absolutely off target and I felt it was important to voice the opposition viewpoint - and emphatically, to make sure it was clear that the subject at hand was important to me.

But having strong feelings on a topic doesn't automatically equate to having "pent-up anger", and it's going to take a lot more than an armchair psychologist who doesn't know what he/she is talking about to tell me otherwise.

More to the point, I suspect that those accusing others of having "pent-up anger" are using that as a way to dismiss opposing viewpoints as being trivial or irrational. Maybe if I say "you're wrong", it's not because I'm angry - it's because I think you're wrong.

But of course, if I start second-guessing the motives and beliefs of people who accuse me of having pent-up anger, I'm doing exactly that which I said they should not be doing... so ignore that last paragraph :D

ralph

[battybattybats]

Funny...I always thought of this forum as a happy safe little haven on the stormy sea that is the internet.

Anger? Sure a bit...but you want to see a ton of fear and loathing...go to some of the forums for online games and such!

You could be right. This was sparked by someone elses post (in the worst CD thread but please lets not bring that subject into this one too) that got me thinking about it and wondering.


Most the anger that does get stirred up here is at the hands of agent provocateurs that are having a bit of fun and completely know what they are doing.

Perhaps, every place gets some trolling. But I also think that when people are deeply troubled with things like internal and external homophobia they can end up touchy an defensive so the same would likely be true of transphobia.


I get the idea you (Batty) enjoy stirring it up a bit, probably a bit too much.

I think it's good to challenge ideas and conclusions, including my own, and to challenge apathy or complacency when there is injustice, but both of those are different from just stirring things up for fun which is not what I like at all.


But I respect your obvious intelligence. I am guessing a super high IQ.

I did the basic mensa exam but didnt get a full formal IQ test, but I started talking in whole sentences, joined in after-lecture university philosophy lecture discussions at 3, learnt almost nothing at school as I self-taught a year or so ahead, did my year 10 exams in Runic script for the fun of it after noticing the exam rules allowed other languages writing systems and they'd find a translator for marking... so it's high-end indeed. But my CFS drops it down by apparently up to 40 points! And as academic writing is my default that is why on bad days my posts are often over-long. On bad days I find communicating in short concise sentences painfull, literally painfull.


So you are very very clever and run circles around most here....even if completely wrong on an issue in my opinion, it does not slow you down...you are a heck of a debater.

Aww thanks :)
But please do still show me where I'm wrong if i am. My views on many things have changed since coming to this forum. I don't mind being wrong and don't disagree just for the sake of it but I do raise some points i dont agree with if it's important to consider them or rule them out.

[Karren H]

I have np pent up anger at all but you sure seem to?

[Tal'Aura]

In one controvertial thread (which does not need reviving!) someone suggested there was a lot of pent-up anger here.

Jolan Tru,

That "pent-up anger" is in fact latent hostility, but I think this is a common problem with all forums, not just this one. Since there is no way to prevent that, I have learned it's the best to just ignore stupid people and stupid threads.

[GaleWarning]

No, I don't feel any anger here.
Just lots of guilt.
And lack of understanding, both of self and of others' points of view and feelings.

But that's OK if out of the turmoil there emerge self-acceptance and greater appreciation of the inherent worthiness of each and every one of us.

Miranda, I don't see that this site or any other to do with CDing drives people deeper into the closet. If anything, it seems to me that many of us find greater confidence as a result of the support and encouragement we find on this (and other) sites.

Through the eyes of shesadvl, I also think that this site is absolutely wonderful for the opportunity it provides our SOs to learn more about the psychology of CDing. If anything, I sometimes wonder if they gain more than we do from it.

That's also OK, if it saves relationships and prevents unnecessary heartache and pain.

In short, then, there is very little anger displayed here. I can only remember one thread, which I felt was full of flaming, in all the time I have been here.

Peace, brothers and sisters!

[msginaadoll]

I see that there can be pent up anger. Of course that is because we are all human, and bring the good, bad, and ugly here. I also think that there can be judgementalization if that is a word (if not I invented it.) By that I mean- cause I live my life this way you should live yours the same. Everyone should be out to their wife, partner, significant other, the mailman, the cat, dog, aardvark, etc because I am. Of course that is my judging as well but then Im only human. The way I look at it is this is only a forum, I love to get others opinions, share info, get and recieve support. But at the end of the day I can turn my computer off and you all go away. Most of the folks on the forum will never really meet or know me, and I will not know them.

[Nicki B]

Personally MY anger comes from the people who don't want to do anything about it except hide. It angers me that some ask for acceptance but don't try to be who they are outside of the sneaking around dressing when no one can see. You cannot ask your SO or anyone in society to accept you if you don't accept yourself.

OK I have my Flak vest on...let's hear it

Do you? I can empathise with them - but it also saddens me. That's why the more the discussions on people getting out successfully the better - I don't mind if they feel envious, if that acts as a trigger..

[AmandaM]

Batty, you've been wrong on a few points, but it takes an exercise in logistics to find the needed proof to prove you wrong. An endless debacle in which few are inclined to partake. Hence, you are not challenged often cause the exercise is tiring. You win by sheer argumentative power. And others just tire of it and look elsewhere. So, thinking you are right, is not as right as you think.

[AmandaM]

Personally MY anger comes from the people who don't want to do anything about it except hide. It angers me that some ask for acceptance but don't try to be who they are outside of the sneaking around dressing when no one can see. You cannot ask your SO or anyone in society to accept you if you don't accept yourself.

Yeah, okay, I'm with you, I'll put on my prettiest things on Monday morning and drive onto the Navy Base. It's the real me, so accept me dammit!

LOL, like that's gonna further our cause.

[TSchapes]

So do you feel you, or CDs in general have pent-up anger?

I've had anger issues, and I'm still learning to deal with them. As far as other CD's and the posts I've seen, yes there is disappointment. For example: an SO that doesn't understand, a high-profile job that doesn't allow them to dress as often as they would like, thinking about CDing too often, jealously of others that can go out and be themselves or where they don't feel they can measure up to others. It's here between a lot of the lines. The frustration can be felt here.


How do you deal with it if you do?

First of all, I see a shrink, so medication helps. And second, I try not to take myself too seriously. Also, I've been trying to take a positive attitude to the whole CD thing. As out as I am, I still question my sanity...

Love, Tracy :love:

[Lorileah]

Yeah, okay, I'm with you, I'll put on my prettiest things on Monday morning and drive onto the Navy Base. It's the real me, so accept me dammit!

LOL, like that's gonna further our cause.

You know darn well that what you are saying is apples and oranges. That same Monday morning there are hundreds of female naval personnel who walk onto that same base in dungarees, Camis,and whites, depending on their job. The military requires a uniform. 30 years ago, those same women would have had to show up in skirts. They could not do any job that remotely was associated with battle. Now look where they are. But consider this, on that same Monday you have parade. You are to dress in full dress uniform, Women can wear slacks or skirts. Men will wear slacks.

You didn't have to enlist and you KNEW what the uniform entailed when you signed up. Now you have a civilian job. You decide that you are going to work in femme. If your congressman would vote for ENDA (see Batty's recent posts) you will be allowed to work en femme as long as it does not interfere with your job. (safety) So right now YOUR government that you have stood up for is not standing for you. We won't even get into the "Don't ask Don't tell." thing which could be ended with a stroke of a pen WITHOUT congressional debate.

Apples and oranges.


When you go home you can wear what you like, go where you like, do what you like unless you are somehow required to be available for duty. Even in my day 35 years ago, we could do that.

[DaphneGrey]

When you go home you can wear what you like, go where you like, do what you like unless you are somehow required to be available for duty. Even in my day 35 years ago, we could do that.[/QUOTE]

I must disagree with you here, 20 years ago in my day and indeed today in the Military anything you do on or off base can be used to disqualify you and deem you unfit for service.

If you were to go dressed once to a club and were noticed by another serviceman or woman, you might be able to explain it away. Twice would be all it would take. Unfit for service, fast track to a COG discharge or worse.. no bennies and no pension. Even off duty and off base being trans is not an option.

Even as a civilian contractor you could lose your job at a military base for being trans even when you are not at work. All they need to do is present a case at arbitration that your "unique condition" has the potential to cause operational disruptions, and you are out of a job. If the arbitration board buys the argument.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Most of that anger comes from sites actually being a step backwards in terms of oppression and diversity from CD life on the outside.

Innnnteresting.


Funny...I always thought of this forum as a happy safe little haven on the stormy sea that is the internet.

If people think there is anger/flaming/whatever hear, they should take a look at the USENET trans newsgroups. Yep, I'm a vet'rin of USENET.


Do you think that sites like this actually push people deeper into the closet?

I think some people look for any excuse to stay in there, for example looking for anecdotes where somebody receives a nasty comment out in public. Or saying they can't go out because they live in Arkansas or Mississippi or something.


I was so hoping that with the issues Batty raises that more people would "come out" but I can see your point.

There's several reasons why. For one, this site attracts the kind of CD who is less willing to go or be out for various reasons. That's just the way it is.


It is my opinion that most of the anger should be directed at why we still feel that who we are and what we are doing is wrong.

We have met the enemy and they are us. I know who my own worse enemy is..me.


You cannot ask your SO or anyone in society to accept you if you don't accept yourself.

:iagree: I agree.



OK I have my Flak vest on...let's hear it Not Flak, flame retardant.



That's why the more the discussions on people getting out successfully the better - I don't mind if they feel envious, if that acts as a trigger..

It did me, in a way, back on USENET.

:iagree: I agree.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

[Lorileah]

If you were to go dressed once to a club and were noticed by another serviceman or woman, you might be able to explain it away. Twice would be all it would take. Unfit for service, fast track to a COG discharge or worse.. no bennies and no pension. Even off duty and off base being trans is not an option.



Now the quandary, why was that person at the club? And do they "Out" themselves to screw you up? Gee we even had a stripper in my company. Her Colonel knew it maybe the General didn't. The whole first floor of the barracks was gay (they moved together). One MP worked off duty in an adult store. You know that they won't actively seek you out thus the Don't ask part.

As a civilian they would have a ton of paperwork to do (it is very difficult to remove a civilian who has been in the Government for any length of time) short of a felony conviction (I know at least three civilian CD's and one is military). Once again ONE stroke of the pen, (Executive order) even DA DT is gone. When (if?) congress passes ENDA even that is mute on the civilian side. Once again, and here is part of the anger part, you KNEW you were TG when you took the oath. Don't complain about not being accepted or being able to dress when you read the rules. Instead call your congressperson and push towards rights.

And explain to me exactly how being a TG is disruptive to operations when you are off duty? If you are in the Sandbox as a civvie you knew what you were buying for that 200+K a year. You cannot complain about "poor me" not being able to come out. Therein lies MY anger. I don't like the people who hide yet expect that everyone accept them. Either stay in the closet and accept your life as is or fight for what you believe in. Isn't that why our military is fighting. So we can have freedom of expression...except if you work for Uncle Sam. Is that a paradox or oxymoron?


With that we can continue this in PM as it is getting to political for the boards

[AllieSF]

I don't think that there is an abnormal amount of "pent-up anger" on this site. The nature of this site is to accept everyone. In so doing, we get a fairly representative cross section of society, especially the US one where I think that most of the members are located. Since most are MtF Cd's and beyond, I believe that the male testosterone sometimes takes over and we become our typical male argumentative selves. I know that there are certain topics and attitudes that some members have here that really get to my hot buttons. But they would probably touch them even if I was not on this site. We have good debates here, let off some steam once in a while, sometimes too much, but in my opinion not overly so. I have tried to learn to not let others get my dander up and just pass by their comments. I would not make a big thing out of what I believe is a normal situation on this type of forum site.

[DaphneGrey]

[QUOTE=Lorileah;1748277]Now the quandary, why was that person at the club? And do they "Out" themselves to screw you up? Gee we even had a stripper in my company. Her Colonel knew it maybe the General didn't. The whole first floor of the barracks was gay (they moved together). One MP worked off duty in an adult store. You know that they won't actively seek you out thus the Don't ask part.

As a civilian they would have a ton of paperwork to do (it is very difficult to remove a civilian who has been in the Government for any length of time) short of a felony conviction (I know at least three civilian CD's and one is military). Once again ONE stroke of the pen, (Executive order) even DA DT is gone. When (if?) congress passes ENDA even that is mute on the civilian side. Once again, and here is part of the anger part, you KNEW you were TG when you took the oath. Don't complain about not being accepted or being able to dress when you read the rules. Instead call your congressperson and push towards rights.

And explain to me exactly how being a TG is disruptive to operations when you are off duty? If you are in the Sandbox as a civvie you knew what you were buying for that 200+K a year. You cannot complain about "poor me" not being able to come out. Therein lies MY anger. I don't like the people who hide yet expect that everyone accept them. Either stay in the closet and accept your life as is or fight for what you believe in. Isn't that why our military is fighting. So we can have freedom of expression...except if you work for Uncle Sam. Is that a paradox or oxymoron?

Being TG off duty is not disruptive all I am saying is if they want to use it against you they can.

I said civilian contractor, who works directly for the military. Very different from a government employee. And do these CDs show up to work dressed? The military CD in particular?

But I agree with you, absolutely if you want acceptance you need to work for it, I understand coming out is rewarding but by no means a picnic for me and I am sure for most of us. We walk out the door hair heels and attitude at great personal risk.

We earn the acceptance we have achieved. Constantly hearing I want but I cant because he, she, they, work, etc. Gets really old really fast.

I would make provisions for say people who live in muslim countries and subject to Sharia law. Orthodox Jews and so forth. There is a difference between using anything as an excuse, and being in mortal danger. Or being so deeply conflicted on religious beliefs.

Not to say that being in the closet is bad if that is where you want to be. Or if you are not ready thats fine too, Just be honest with yourself and everyone else about why.

[Persephone]

I think there is a lot of pent-up anger here, and on CD sites in general. Most of that anger comes from sites actually being a step backwards in terms of oppression and diversity from CD life on the outside.

Makes sense to me, Miranda. Try as hard as I can, I simply can't become a victim; can't view myself as "oppressed" or "internalizing oppression" or any of that negative stuff.

It took me a long time to break free of ME, it turned out that I didn't have to break free of others.

As Pogo once said, "We have met the enemy and he is us."


I think it's cause people are people. I'm a conservative right-wing Christian gun-nut, think Ann Coulter, a personal hero. Being also a CD'er/potential TS, this doesn't give me much in common with many of my "sisters" and we fight. What can you do? Try your best to remember that we're all different, yet linked. I disagree with Batty on almost every point, but she's my sister here so I give her a break.
:yt::iagree: (although I don't happen to be Christian, but 5 out of 6 ain't a bad score!).

[Nicki B]

Batty, you've been wrong on a few points, but it takes an exercise in logistics to find the needed proof to prove you wrong. An endless debacle in which few are inclined to partake. Hence, you are not challenged often cause the exercise is tiring. You win by sheer argumentative power. And others just tire of it and look elsewhere. So, thinking you are right, is not as right as you think.


Yeah, okay, I'm with you, I'll put on my prettiest things on Monday morning and drive onto the Navy Base. It's the real me, so accept me dammit!

LOL, like that's gonna further our cause.

Case proven, d'you think? :heehee:


Well, I for one hope that there is a lot of pent-up anger on this site. In the same way, I hope there's a lot of pent-up fuel in the tank of my car.

Partly, I agree Katie - but it's got to be turned outwards, not just at each other... :sad:

[battybattybats]

Batty, you've been wrong on a few points, but it takes an exercise in logistics to find the needed proof to prove you wrong. An endless debacle in which few are inclined to partake. Hence, you are not challenged often cause the exercise is tiring. You win by sheer argumentative power. And others just tire of it and look elsewhere. So, thinking you are right, is not as right as you think.

This thread isn't about me, or people disagreeing with me. As I said before It was inspired by someone elses point in a thread I didn't start or even contibute significantly to.

Specifically from this now locked thread http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108801&page=2 in post number 45 by danam


Lots of pent-up anger on this forum, which comes out in surprising and unexpected ways.

So this thread was not and is not about me. I merely read that post, considered that bad anger issues exist in some other groups with Internalised Oppressions but not all of them and wondered if others agreed with danam's perception.




Originally Posted by Katie B
Well, I for one hope that there is a lot of pent-up anger on this site. In the same way, I hope there's a lot of pent-up fuel in the tank of my car.

Partly, I agree Katie - but it's got to be turned outwards, not just at each other... :sad:

Good Calls!
But then if so how do we turn the focus of such anger to effective use away from self-destruction?

[Jenny Brown]

Good Calls!
But then if so how do we turn the focus of such anger to effective use away from self-destruction?

"We" don't. Because all of this internalized anger, agression, (or whatever label you choose to put on it today) mostly exists only in the heads of certain self-appointed "psychological experts" of everyone and everything on this forum. :straightface:

[Nicki B]

So you're not angry or aggressive then, Jenny? :strugglin

[battybattybats]

"We" don't. Because all of this internalized anger, agression, (or whatever label you choose to put on it today) mostly exists only in the heads of certain self-appointed "psychological experts" of everyone and everything on this forum. :straightface:

Anger is different from, but potentially (but not neccessarily) caused by internalised oppression or reaction to external oppression. So I'm referring to two different possibly related things.

The common violence and domestic violence problems amongst indiginious peoples now a minority in their own lands across the world are one extreme example of this.

But I'm not saying our community has anger issues. I'm asking if it does. Anger is but one of the possible ways internalised oppression effects us.

I didn't invent the idea of Internalised Oppression. It's considered a common issue that effects many groups of people. If you disagree with the concept read this article and see if you still disagree with it's existence in general and/or that it effects us http://ctb.ku.edu/en/tablecontents/sub_section_main_1172.htm

And a helpfull referance on heterosexism, homophobia and transphobia is this http://www.uoguelph.ca/hre/hr/docs/RecognizingHeterosexism.pdf

[LA CINDY LOVE]

Well I do not feel that their is any pent-up anger here, but what I do feel is that a lot of Cd's are annoyed......they feel annoyed how their lifestyle and the way they choose to live it and and guide it is either misunderstood or not understood, then is broken down
reassemble and told this is a better/ best way you should live and guide your lifestyle.

LA CINDY LOVE

[Sarah...]

You win by sheer argumentative power.

Cool. Well, except the "win" bit I mean. Argumentative power is what drives a free society. The ability to argue a point and constantly re-invent oneself as one learns new views/facts is what allows us to get closer and closer to the truth.

I'd love to have some serious argumentative power :)

Sarah...

[curse within]

A true DEBATE isn't a matter of who is wrong or who is right, thats why we debate, other than that its a pointless arguement.

Take the glass of water be half empty or half full? A debate is understanding a point of view ,most debaters are on the same side of thinking because there can only be a right or a wrong.

A winner in a debate is when the forked road meets (both sides agree to the root and understand how to resolve it by working together) Until that happens there are no winners.

[Sarah...]

A true DEBATE isn't a matter of who is wrong or who is right, thats why we debate, other than that its a pointless arguement.

Take the glass of water be half empty or half full? A debate is understanding a point of view ,most debaters are on the same side of thinking because there can only be a right or a wrong.

A winner in a debate is when the forked road meets (both sides agree to the root and understand how to resolve it by working together) Until that happens there are no winners.

:) Nice one.

Sarah...

[danam]

One problem is that text is an imperfect form of communication. There is an element of interpretation that must occur on the reader's side, and if the reader is sensitive to a particular side-issue, well, guess how they're going to interpret things.

I had this issue with a thread in which I tried to be smart and intellectual and tons of people replied with, "You suck!" or something like that. No fun at all, especially when you can't take the time to analyze and respond to each offending reply and straighten it all out.

[Kolokea GG]

I will speak for my cder. When he needs a release...he does play on his XBOX. Allows him to release what needs to be before he says or does something he regrets.

[Deedee Dupree]

A true DEBATE isn't a matter of who is wrong or who is right, thats why we debate, other than that its a pointless arguement.

Take the glass of water be half empty or half full? A debate is understanding a point of view ,most debaters are on the same side of thinking because there can only be a right or a wrong.

A winner in a debate is when the forked road meets (both sides agree to the root and understand how to resolve it by working together) Until that happens there are no winners.


Jolan Tru,
That "pent-up anger" is in fact latent hostility, but I think this is a common problem with all forums, not just this one. Since there is no way to prevent that, I have learned it's the best to just ignore stupid people and stupid threads.

I agree with both up to a point. This reminds me of the highly paid "ringers" that would infiltrate rights groups in the 50's & 60's (but not limited to those generations) to sabotage a cause by getting into a position of authority and then divide and conquer...... directing attention away from the specific to meaningless generalizations.

There will always be comments designed to provoke discord. Many can be safely ignored, others should be carefully observed and when necessary dealt with in the most efficient fashion. Part of the disrupters method is to wear an opponent down with irrelevant emotionally charged nonsense.

When a responder, ringer or not, can't make a good case, the replies often become ad homimum attacks, not unlike what might happen if one of us confronts an a abusive knucklehead on the street who says something nasty. We might reply with a direct pointed question that they are too stupid to answer... so the reply is profanity.

When the highly educated do it, it's no less offensive or stupid, it's just a more subtle way of being a jackass.

Edit: Someone also pointed out the limitations of this medium, a very important observation, as so much can be so easily misunderstood. IMO, it is worth the effort to only address the point of an OP's questions.... save everybody a lot of wear & tear.......


dd

[Nicki B]

One problem is that text is an imperfect form of communication. There is an element of interpretation that must occur on the reader's side, and if the reader is sensitive to a particular side-issue, well, guess how they're going to interpret things.

There are always four steps to communicating - each one has the potential for the message to become garbled?

What you mean to say - what you actually (in this case) write - what someone reads - finally, what they think you meant.. And both the first and last steps can also be strongly influenced by previous personal experiences. :sad:

[battybattybats]

I agree with both up to a point. This reminds me of the highly paid "ringers" that would infiltrate rights groups in the 50's & 60's (but not limited to those generations) to sabotage a cause by getting into a position of authority and then divide and conquer...... directing attention away from the specific to meaningless generalizations.


Ah yes, we had one of those in a local protest march some years ago who tried to make the marchers look bad by shouting out offensive and patently false missrepresentations of the point of the march whenever the media were near, they were quickly herded out of the front of the march, trailed behind a while then gave up.

And back when I was a mod on a sizable forum where competing commercial interests became major topics we had a problem for a time with 'sock-puppets' where people with a comercial interest in the matter would join the forum pretending to be ordinary folk while talking up their enterprise and attacking the competition.

So yeah, that sort of thing does indeed happen. But I have no idea if it does happen here.

[Satrana]

I don't think there is much pent up anger in the CD community because CDs for the most part work out a system where they pretend to be normal and integrated into society while giving themselves their own personal time to indulge in their needs. This suffices for most CDs.

The discrimination that drives other oppressed groups is just not as obvious in the case of CDs. People genuinely believe in the "naturalness" of male and female gender so CDs mostly believe that society is right to consider them weird. You cannot get angry at society when deep down you believe they have a case to argue.

On the other hand if you are TS or want to be full-time TG then you are more likely to have anger issues at the practical issues of operating in society. But for the average CD the issue is more pent up sadness and fear that they have been burdened with an anti-social stigma which interferes with their quest for personal happiness. CDs generally accept this state of affairs because of the workable compromises they have made.

[Nicki B]

The discrimination that drives other oppressed groups is just not as obvious in the case of CDs. People genuinely believe in the "naturalness" of male and female gender so CDs mostly believe that society is right to consider them weird. You cannot get angry at society when deep down you believe they have a case to argue.

Which is why many do turn it inwards against themselves - and against other trans people who appear to be 'rocking the boat'. :sad:

[darla_g]

I used to be angry, now I'm just amused. Okay, it's the sort of amusement with just the teensiest bit of anger that sometimes makes me want to slip off my 5" hooker pumps and smack someone in the forehead.

Hugs...Joni MariI liked Joni's attitude which is why I'm quoting it. I love dressing, but I'm sort of in my "off-season" and I can read many posts with personal amusement. Everything is ratcheted down at the moment. There are other things to get bent out of shape about.

[Lorileah]

The discrimination that drives other oppressed groups is just not as obvious in the case of CDs. People genuinely believe in the "naturalness" of male and female gender so CDs mostly believe that society is right to consider them weird. You cannot get angry at society when deep down you believe they have a case to argue.
But for the average CD the issue is more pent up sadness and fear that they have been burdened with an anti-social stigma which interferes with their quest for personal happiness. CDs generally accept this state of affairs because of the workable compromises they have made.



Workable? Oy vey. How many posts are there that complain that they would want more except their spouse, job or the moon phase prevents it?

I agree that we consider what we do as wrong, in our own minds. I am sure other groups went through the same thing. "I am JUST a woman, I can't do any man's work." Gotta love the women in the early 1900's who said they were not satisfied with the status quo. If the internet was available then how many posts do you think would start with "I wore a pair of slacks last night and my husband is threatening divorce. He asked me if I wanted sex with a woman?" They could have stayed in the closet. But they didn't. They blended into society without a problem before that. We have to get over this learned behavior. How many CD's here are psycho murdering perverts? I won't say none but the number would mirror "normal" people. How many of us act like clowns for the amusement of the masses? Very few. Yet this is what reinforces how we feel about our selves. We have to break that cycle.

I have been to the sale racks and I have seen the promised discounts! OK bad paraphrase


Which is why many do turn it inwards against themselves - and against other trans people who appear to be 'rocking the boat'. :sad:

So now we are in Guys and Dolls (some of of more than we think)? "Siddown siddown siddown you're rocking the boat." :)

I hope you all can swim:

[Carly D.]

I think I have to be ready at the drop of a wise crack to defend myself should anyone want to start anything with me.. I'm not a fighter but if pushed, let the games begin.. I was looking at myspace sites and there was one cross dresser that said he liked to wear womens clothing and if you don't like it he was willing to fix your attitude, no problem.. I read that and went out in my heeled booties and went where I wanted to.. and for a three hour timespan I was.. then the spell wore off, and I became the pumpkin..

[Kimmie]

uhhhh you realize that the powers that be, like to keep us angry, polarized and fighting each other. So we the people are distracted when the powers that be are really ****ing us behind our backs.

"The only thing that's worse than when these guys are fighting each other. Is when they are working together to screw us." Lewis Black

[sometimes_miss]

I'm not sure whether it's anger or frustration. But I'm sort of the reverse of some here; I'm o.k. in the closet, I don't want to go out en femme, I just want to be accepted as me and let alone. While I understand the 'militant' CD'ers here who want everyone out and in the open, hoping that will change the way society sees and perhaps eventually accept us, well it hasn't happened to the gay folks yet, and I don't see it happening in my lifetime for us either. Sure, there are some big city areas where we are welcomed or at least ignored, but most of the world still thinks we're freaks, and they have no problem with us being made fun of or abused, and so I don't want to live with that label again; it's too exhausting. No, thank you.

[Lorileah]

I'm not sure whether it's anger or frustration. But I'm sort of the reverse of some here; I'm o.k. in the closet, I don't want to go out en femme, I just want to be accepted as me and let alone. While I understand the 'militant' CD'ers here who want everyone out and in the open, hoping that will change the way society sees and perhaps eventually accept us, well it hasn't happened to the gay folks yet, and I don't see it happening in my lifetime for us either. Sure, there are some big city areas where we are welcomed or at least ignored, but most of the world still thinks we're freaks, and they have no problem with us being made fun of or abused, and so I don't want to live with that label again; it's too exhausting. No, thank you.

Lexi, good for you to be who you are. I will support you 100%. But maybe I can plant a small seed in someone one these boards.

<----one of the more militant, but maybe it's just left over from the flower power days I was alive for but kept away from. I don't think EVERYone needs to come out of the closet. There are things you can do from there to further the cause. And even though gays are not 100% accepted, they are a lot further than they were 40 years ago. If we say to ourselves that we can't change things or that things WON"T change, then we are doomed to keep the status quo. Don't expect that people around you will suddenly say "Hey! You are OK, we love you anyway (paraphrasing a Broadway show)".
Baby steps. It would be fantastic if tomorrow, everyone woke up and said, I don't hate anyone. But it will take time. Time is something that we can't get back. If you don't see it happening in your lifetime, it won't.

Being on this forum and giving your thoughts and opinions even from the safety of the closet, is doing something. Every little bit helps. Only we can dispel the freaks and weirdos tags. Certain ethnic groups, socioeconomic groups, and religions have been labeled the same.

:hugs: