How do you define what makes the MAN or WOMAN from your own perspective

[Sheila]

she is already more male than me I think :)

I saw tha above quote as part of an answer in another thread, and thought it could be the start of an interesting question answers session. Will the answers to be as diverse as I think they may be ?

So how do you see the differences as being between men and women, (& please this is not a thread to rant about how either gender sex dresses or not), this is about our inner strengths and weaknessess, or general outlooks on life :)

[Sarah...]

this is about our inner strengths and weaknessess

I think inner strengths and weaknesses are nothing to do with gender or sexual identity. They exist regardless of those aspects of each person. However, the way they are expressed or repressed can be impacted by one's perceived and actual gender role and the tensions that may exist between those two aspects of an individual.

Sarah...

[Sheila]

I think inner strengths and weaknesses are nothing to do with gender or sexual identity. They exist regardless of those aspects of each person. However, the way they are expressed or repressed can be impacted by one's perceived and actual gender role and the tensions that may exist between those two aspects of an individual.

Sarah...

I agree in many ways Sarah, but our upbringing in general does seem to play a significant part on how we both are percieved and percieve, so our strengths can be (and in many cases are) if you like manufactured, by the upbring we are subjected to both within the family and in our localized society, which in turn strengthens or wekens certain aspect of our gender assignment (I think I nearly understand what I was trying to say there:doh:)

[Honey]

I'm really at a loss to answer this, why do I see myself as more of a girl than a guy, I think is the only way I can answer this.

I've never liked my body, I don't look in mirrors, except to shave, and put my contacts in. I've always wished I had the female attributes.

Apart from sports, I've never really got into any major male orientated vocations, or hobbies. All my jobs have been more female dominated jobs, my current job I'm the only male in the position for all of Western Australia, and there are only 2 others in all of Aussie.

I have more female friends than male friends, I feel easier to speak to females - in a friend way, than males.

The more I look back at my life (most I've closeted away) the more I realise there were indicators when I was younger that I felt different than what I felt a male should.

Sadly, I don't think I've helped with the answer, as I can't grasp what I feel is male or female.

All I know is the more I analyse myself, I wish I had done it earlier in my life when I would of probably tried to transition, where as now, I still feel I should of been a girl, but don't want to hurt people I love by going through with it now.

[Nicki B]

This is going to be a difficult thread, because there's so much confusion in how people use terms?

Male/female for physical anatomy (internal as well as external), masculine/feminine for gender (feelings, behaviours) - but MAN & WOMAN?

Leaving aside the frequent differentiation between man/boy, woman/girl as crossing the border of sexual activity, how do we define, say WOMEN?

If gender=feminine+sex=female, it's easy, but what about other combinations? :strugglin

[Anna the Dub]

This is a very hard question to answer. Who is to say what defines masculinity or femininity? All I can do is say what I am like from my own perspective.

From an early age I was unhappy with my appearance and I disliked my body, I disliked getting all hairy at puberty, I hated getting muscles.
I have no male friends at all, only female.
I listen to my male colleagues talking at work, and they might as well be speaking another language.
I feel threatened and uneasy in all male company
I feel at ease with women.
I am a very gentle, sensitive, emotional and empathic person.
To me men feel like the opposite gender
For something as simple as watching a film, I identify with the female characters.
Violence makes me feel intimidated and frightened.

Are my traits more female than male? In the stereotypical sense, then yes. But there are plenty of women who have stereotypical male traits too, who could in no way be described as masculine. It is really an indefinable quality, masculinity or femininity.

[StephanieC]

Sheila,

I think I might understand the core of your question...you didn't use the terms female/male or masculine/feminine so I offer my answer in that light.

I believe women tend to be more nurturing (I didn't say emotional), tend to be more "nesting", and are more self-giving (think "she-bears" to her young). Men tend to be more protective ("dont tread on me"). Some of the traits are very similar, it's just a matter of degree, rationale, and perceived benefit.

The superficial stuff...appearance, mannerisms, etc...that's not indicative of man vs woman (IMHO). The core of who we are (the soul) drives who we are, not how we appear.

:2c:
-Stephani

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Sheila, what a tough question you have asked. Maybe we should start out with a couple of definitions, just so we're all talking about the same thing. First off, there's your sex which mainly has to do with your plumbing and usually most people get one box or the other checked off by the Dr when they're born. You're either a boy or a girl. External or internal stuff, though that can vary also. There are intersexed individuals, the Goddess likes to mess around. Then there's your gender, how you feel about yourself, whether it's masculine or feminine, which is what I gather that you're asking about and finally, there's your orientation, which is who makes you go sploosh and who you want to jump in the sack with.

All of these lie along a spectrum or range, even the physical parts sometimes and especially the gender part of it, which is why I am here and so many others are, too, no doubt. As to what makes someone "masculine" or "feminine" part of that is societal and even regional and part of it, a big part of it, is inside your head. I grew up in Texas and have lived in areas where ranching and farming is a huge part of the culture and known girls who could break horses and buck hay and probably kick my ass without breaking a sweat. They could also put on a party dress on Friday night and some perfume and be the belle of the ball.

So, I guess my answer to your question, and I am putting aside my usual smartassness here, is I have no idea what makes someone, speaking of me, one way or the other. I do know that women tend to be more nurturing and kinder than men, though I have met some seriously tough women, they will listen better, they won't try to "fix" things but instead will be a shoulder to cry on when you need one. Women are not perfect, they can be so mean and bitchy to one another sometimes, but given my druthers I would rather be a girl than a boy.

OMG, sometimes I just can't shutup.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[Joanne f]

A hard question to answer which in part may be a part of the answer ( females would not have to think so hard about an answer .)
I was going to say that it has nothing to do with being masculine or feminine as you get masculine females and feminine males .
But when you look at it a bit deeper you seam to realise that masculine females seem to like different things in life to feminine ones and the same seams to go for feminine males , they seam to like doing different things to masculine (what some would call many men) but as with all things this is not a hard fast rule .
Maybe the female mind is more emotional, sensitive and devious and has a wider thought band than male ones .
The more i am thinking about this the more i am beginning to wonder if there is a great difference apart from attitudes .
OK it`s got me .

[TGMarla]

There are those who would argue that it comes down to genetics. Physically, one is defined as male or female (man or woman) based on the sexual characteristics that are manifested due to the influences of the X or the Y chromasome. Granted, these characteristics can be altered to give the outward appearance of the other. So we get into gray areas here rather quickly.

But I don't think that's what you're asking here. So now we get into the mental aspects of it, the mindset that is common to either men or women. There are men who pursue "male-ness" to a great degree and on a grand scale. Hemingway was all about the male ideal, and wrote about it as he pursued it in his waking life. There is no doubt that his writings influenced our opinions on modern manhood to a great degree. He was a "man's man", whatever that is.

We might well look at professional (male) athletes in this light, too. Pro wrestlers appear before their audiences exuding steroid-induced musculature and really dim intellects while expounding the virtues of beating the hell out their opponents. Gee, how masculine of them. Does this make any of them more of a man than Ralph Waldo Emerson, who's writings are a cornerstone of transcendental thought in Western Society? I'd argue no, but the media is a powerful and influential purveyor of thought and opinion, no matter how erroneous.

And do we regard great beauties like Sophia Loren or Charlize Theron as more feminine than Eleanor Roosevelt or Susan Boyle simply because they are prettier? Does the image of Barbie exude a greater idea of femininity than the likeness of Ellen Degeneres? (Okay, bad example! :D) This is all media manipulation, and does not get to the root of the question here.

On a sliding gray scale from one extreme to the other, we can boil it all down to the feature personality traits that are encoded into men and women in a general sense. Women are designed to be nurturers, and men are designed to be protectors and providers. Both then work together to promote the greater good. Both are necessary, and one does not carry greater weight than the other. They are symbiotic and intertwined. And generally, our secondary physical characteristics, the musculature and physiology involved, facilitates these roles.

Men are often less enamored with color coordination and delicate things, concentrating on practical solutions to everyday encounters. They are less empathetic and more committed to selfish concerns for themselves and their families. Women, on the other hand, have a greater eye for color and other sensory input, have a greater empathy towards others, and have a greater sense of community. In order for a family unit to survive and thrive, ideally these characteristics work together for the greater good. Once again, one is not more desirable or more important than the other.

Our modern society is very busy trying to break down these delineations. And although many of us here fall squarely into the gray areas between these extremes, often in open contrast to what our physical appearance might suggest, on the whole these differences between men and women are very important, and should not be challenged too much on a societal level, or the entire society could malfunction and fall in on itself. Sure, this is going to be an unpopular opinion on these boards, but I'd argue the truth of it anyway.

I may identify to a great extent with my inner desire for femininity, even to the extreme of altering my appearance at times to actually look and act like a woman, but I take my role as the man in my family very seriously, and try my best to perform my male societal duties as is demanded by my familial role as the man in our household. There are others here who do not feel any such sense of duty like this, but everyone's circumstances are different. I decided a while back that I would remain male, and therefore I have embraced my role as a male. I'm always going to crossdress, and I'm always going to have an affinity for feminine appearance and attire. But I am also a man, and I have to be this for my wife and my family. It's my role, it's my job, and it's my duty to my wife.

Whew! Okay, bring it on.

[Nicki B]

There are those who would argue that it comes down to genetics.

It's not just nature, though, is it? Nurture, upbringing, societal expectation cause differences, too.

Put a women together with men and the men will try to 'protect' them. Is that innate, or learnt?

[TGMarla]

I'm sure it's a little of both, Nicki. But there have been numerous cases when one gender has been raised as the other, and the subject has vigorously rejected the gender role in which they were cast. In one notable case, a male baby was damaged in his genitals during a routine circumcism, and was then raised as a girl. The result was disasterous, with the subject eventually embracing a role as a male in society. He wound up growing full facial hair and getting married despite the fact that he no longer had a penis and testicals. But he knew that something was wrong his whole life. That cannot be a result of nurture, but was an outward manifestation of a physical and genetic characteristic.

[Sheila]

It's not just nature, though, is it? Nurture, upbringing, societal expectation cause differences, too.

Put a women together with men and the men will try to 'protect' them. Is that innate, or learnt?

now put A genetic female tog with a TG going out and we inherently go into over protect drive ourselves ........ nature/nurture ............ many interesting ideas coming in in this thread already

[Lorileah]

no arguing clothing huh? :(

I agree in principle with many of the above answers. It is a"feeling". A feeling that even when we try to belong we don't belong. I call it the missing gene theory. I don't have the genes to go hunting, or sit around a campfire (see Blazing Saddles) or rebuild an engine. These things are defined in general as "male". In my life, I know many females who do these things rather well. Don't know if they consider themselves transgendered or not. Females don't agonize over this as much as we do. But that is because society (in men's opinion) has stricter guidelines

I do have the gene to pick out "cute" outfits, stay in hotels with concierge service and take in a symphony. Things "defined" in society as feminine. Women like when men do these things with them (with being a key word...not behind their backs) but men in general see this as losing masculinity. Perception

This does not mean I can't do those things, I can and have. But I like doing other things.

Dressing was a natural extension of these and I was hooked when I saw my legs in skirts and heels. Narcissism is a wonderful thing. I am Beardache, in another time I would fit in a society and not be judged (yes I have Native American in me). I am not in the wrong body (thought I was at one time) but I think I am missing key links or life experiences to put me totally in the body I have. Now excuse me...NASCAR's on

[DemonicDaughter]

I'm sure it's a little of both, Nicki. But there have been numerous cases when one gender has been raised as the other, and the subject has vigorously rejected the gender role in which they were cast. In one notable case, a male baby was damaged in his genitals during a routine circumcism, and was then raised as a girl. The result was disasterous, with the subject eventually embracing a role as a male in society. He wound up growing full facial hair and getting married despite the fact that he no longer had a penis and testicals. But he knew that something was wrong his whole life. That cannot be a result of nurture, but was an outward manifestation of a physical and genetic characteristic.

I have to agree with this statement. Though environment, of course, plays a huge factor in personality, I think genetically one is predisposed along the gender spectrum. I believe that some things will inherently push through to the surface.

I've stated previously, feminine is mannerisms. Its being strong while not being brutal. Its being compassionate without being naive. Its being true to yourself without compromising. I do not feel that can be defined by anatomy and/or appearance.

I do not feel there is nearly as much difference between men and women as people continuously state. Most remarks made by men need only a single word changed and most women can relate to it. Things like sports, cars, dirty jobs, etc aren't "manly". Those are social definitions of what men should like and do. Just as cooking, cleaning, knitting, tea parties, etc aren't "womanly", they are society's idea of what women should be doing.

Of course, the idea of what society thinks men and women "should" be doing is a whole other thread. So I'll end this here.

[tinachristina]

Hi Sheila,

I have had a many times a discussion with my SO about what is the difference between a man and a woman ( if that is the question).

We have total disagreement on this topic.Whenever I say that I am more sensitive and compassionate because of Tina, she rejects it saying that I am sensitive in male mode too and it is because my family is sensitive and compassionate I have inherited that trait.

TO this I counter by saying that who do you think understand your pain more if you have any , your mother or your father . She says definately the mother.

Next I ask her who brings more intensity in our marriage , you or me. She definately agrees that she is more intense ( as with many woman) .

To me women work much harder at maintaining the relationship while man has a tendency to remain aloof.

I would like to talk to my mother when I am explaining emotional things while when I talk to my father , I am being precise and logical. Its not to generalize things. I even talk things logical with my mother but it is better to connect at emotional level with her.

I would not talk about mental strength as I have seen both weak and strong , men and women. I have seen strong ladies and crying men and vice versa.

Definately a woman has much more tolerance to things a man would like to fight about. A woman would in my opinion would like to court lesser trouble than a man.

I have also observed that women are more connected to earthly activities. For e.g. in my country women are in forefront when celebrating the festivals and doing really hard work to dress up and look good, while men are just content with wearing new clothes.

So the question is not yet fully answered ;)

Tina :hugs:

[Sarah...]

I do not feel there is nearly as much difference between men and women as people continuously state.

Yes. I agree with that and it's where I was heading to in my first post I think. It's then the tensions between the perceived and actual gender roles that start the process of differentiation. And I suppose that's a four-way tension - perceived and actual for the individual and perceived and actual for everyone who sees the individual. Those people with an innate strength in any particular area will always express that strength whether it is skill-based, personality-based or about emotional maturity. Those differences applied to, say, our community here will illustrate why some people have no issue in, for example, living life as their preferred gender whilst others do. It's nothing to do with gender or even, dare I say it, society's views. Instead it's to do with your innate or learned and internalised strengths.

Then thinking about Sheila's second point, where we might expect a "male" to take a protective role towards a "female" the converse is often true. So we see it again - no real difference. It's only a situational difference in which some core abilities can be expressed. It's possible that, just for this single behavioural example at least, the protector will simply be the human who is most able to protect at any given point in time, space and social context. That is, it's a human trait. Not a male or female one.

So, these "differences" are just differences in humans? Not sex/gender? With that in mind, quite why I'm still driven to ensure everyone knows I'm female I have absolutely no idea! :)

Hey ho - such is life :)

Sarah...

[Rachel Morley]

I believe women tend to be more nurturing (I didn't say emotional), tend to be more "nesting", and are more self-giving (think "she-bears" to her young). Men tend to be more protective ("dont tread on me"). Some of the traits are very similar, it's just a matter of degree, rationale, and perceived benefit.
This is quite a tricky question to answer and a lot of people are obviously going to have lots of different perceptions about it. For myself, I don't have anything different to add to what has already been said and my immediate thoughts about "what makes a man or a woman" tend to follow Stephanie's line of reasoning above except I would also add empathy. Women tend to be more empathic than men. There are differences in the sexes and they do "tend" to (by and large) follow these traits but you will get some crossover. :2c:

[Jodi]

What is the difference? It's the plumbing. I learned that in high school biology over 50 years ago. All other factors are variable.

Jodi

[Carly D.]

The difference to me is I tend to not wear a belt and just tug to keep my pants up.. my fem self would rather concentrate on other things than that so I wear a belt to hold my skirt up even though the elastic waste band seems to hold just fine.. I'd read somewhere else where a guy or girl not sure which was out wearing a skirt and all the confidence in the world but got out of the car and the skirt slipped right down to her ankles and that would be rather embarrassing if that happened to me so I wear a belt as decor but also for holding my skirts in place..

I was listening to the radio Friday and they were talking about shaving the tops of their feet as a grooming idea for men.. I had been doing this for a long time (well I have to shave the tops of my feet to match my legs) but there were callers who admitted to shaving their feet and private areas as well.. I shave from the waste down.. all of it, front to back..

[Sarah Doepner]

Thanks for this one. I'm still trying to get a handle on the concept. Recently I started a thread on Femininity and got several wonderful responses (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107769).

I've listened to my wife and her sister and their brother for many years now. They confront the same issue, for example someone in the family having health problems. The brother asks questions about money and getting chores done, the girls ask how everyone is reacting to the illness. Women tend to be much more interested in the feelings associated with events and men tend to focus on how to respond in the physical world. It seems to be the empathy button that is active.

When my daughter is having financial problems I worry about how it will impact our bank account and my wife is concerned about how it will impact the grandkids chance to play soccer or have new clothes for a family photo. There are some very basic differences in how we focus our attention, set our priorities and communicate the issues. I try to allow my empathy guide my conversations with others sometimes and I get very strange responses from my male friends and more information than I can handle with my female friends.

[trannie T]

This is a wonderful question without a simple answer. One may define the difference by the X or Y chromosome, or by the plumbing. Or clothes may make the man-or woman. Or some may perceive themselves as male, female or a combination. Or it may be a person's attitude toward gender.