Stereo types

[curse within]

I have came accross some very interesting reading as well ....A T.V. show that sparked my interest for the root of our lifestyle...

I tried as I may to learn and educate myself on how Transgender people lived, and how they were accepted by the soceity they lived in from our distant past. I was amazed with the tolerance the western cultures had up until the late 19th centery.. In Europe most nobels and royality were Transgender, relegion beliefs declined the favored lifestyle...Many Eastern Cultures embrassed the lifestyle even today ,unless influenced by western beliefs..
This could be something that has been passed from generation to generation it could very well be in our DNA or our bloodline ..

Many of us may never know due to modern acceptance to this lifestyle, if our family tree had a Crossdresser in it that part may have been omitted..Now PLEASE keep in mind some of what I wrote in this thread is me filling in the gap of the lost years of Transgenderisim not fact. The History of it is very vague, but it is out there in bits.

[Nicki B]

I was amazed with the tolerance the western cultures had up until the late 19th centery..

Batty's been banging on about this for ages? :)

Just because those attitudes are out there doesn't mean it's always been that way - or that it's right..

[Gabrielle Hermosa]

Batty's been banging on about this for ages? :)

Yes, Batty's repeatedly brought this up... in great detail at times. I always love those posts, too! :)

Not sure exactly what caused the pendulum to swing the other way, but here we are today. They make fun of us and want us to go away, rather than respect us and look up to us. Well, that's not good enough for me. I'm not going away and one way or another, I'll have MY respect.

Time for things to be restored to their proper order. Time for the macho-BS (i.e. making fun of us because we're girly) to be eradicated. It's time to educate people about the realities of who we are.

I'm working on it. Maybe what I'm doing doesn't have a global affect on things. But I can tell you I have made a difference in some lives, and that those people may also make a difference in the lives or others, etc.

What are you willing to do? Not a trick question or a set up for a response even. I don't want you to tell me. I'd rather you just take positive action... when you're ready, anyway. :) If you're not there today, maybe soon then. In time, I think you'll find that your "curse" can really be your strength. :hugs:

[Deedee Dupree]

Hi Curse, Nicki B's comment is right on target, and you are on to something there. It's a facinating subject. Batty has posted so many comments and some links to material of interest. I admit to spending a lot of time going through them, sometimes with dictionary in hand, but it has been worth it for me. Recenty re-read some Joseph Campbell books and there are many allegorical stories that appear to have a root in TGism and related subjects. People talk about hobbies... I love to read.... so many books so little time.

dd

[curse within]

Thanks DEE DEE and Nicky, Yeah Batty has a certain level that leaves me babbeling sometimes but she has good points... I only posted this thread for those to ask themselves " just who is the Stereo Type?" Even tho that wasn't stated in the OP.. Is it religious beliefs that suppress us ? Even tho we have had this lifestyle since or close to the beggining of humans.:eek: Or are we ourselves doing the supression? I am quilty of the self inflicted harm myself..
There can be alot of weight in the Therory of the third sex, but where I lay in the spectrume I can not buy into it in full.. I can not blame soceity for my supression! I do not feel soceity beliefs toward homophobia is what keeps me in the closet.. I say this because I am sure 100% sure I am staright.. How I know this is simple, I just can not be with another man( Nothing wrong with those who are ) .. easy.. How ever I do not understand urges to become female either, I think those go hand to hand in the spectrume IMO..

I say this because if one ..M.A.B. feels to become or desirers to be a woman , this person should be considered straight if the S.O. is a male .. I am not out to start a arguement ..I am just stateing my opininon and its mine through research.. I can very well be wrong..

[Nicki B]

I say this because if one ..M.A.B. feels to become or desirers to be a woman , this person should be considered straight if the S.O. is a male ..

Aren't you perhaps confusing gender and sexuality? :battingeyelashes:

Once gender isn't fixed to anatomical sex, terms like 'gay' and 'straight' become pretty meaningless.

[Deedee Dupree]

well I'll just take a part of your post and state an opinion. I just responded in another thread about suicide among young people. My comment was simply this, "NO ONE should ever have to be made to feel so bad about themselves that they commit suicide because of somebody elses lies"

It makes me so mad. The most egregious ones (some religions) are those who manufacture guilt so they can sell their brand of salvation".

So many of us are exposed to these lies at a young age, this indoctrination is part of our overall conditioning. Being young it is hard to resist the message/the lies. We are told that the elders who spew this stuff must be respected. So we take it to heart. It does it's damage through years of reinforcement and inculcation and so many of us end up beating ourselves half to death for half a lifetime trying to resolve the internal conflicts this causes. It puts us at war within ourselves. Eventually through education and a lot of effort we learn and begin to heal.

I have to stop now.....

[curse within]

Aren't you perhaps confusing gender and sexuality? :battingeyelashes:

Once gender isn't fixed to anatomical sex, terms like 'gay' and 'straight' become pretty meaningless. Yeah I could be Nicki,,Like I said in theroy M.A.B. who feels they should have been born a female should not be rejected by soceity.. I will not get into any sexuality conversations what people do their is their business not mine..

[kellycan27]

I have a Bose 3200 lifestyle series... Does that count? :heehee:

[Violetgray]

I have a Bose 3200 lifestyle series... Does that count? :heehee:

Darn, you beat me too it!

YaY lateral thinking!

[kellycan27]

I can not blame soceity for my supression! I do not feel soceity beliefs toward homophobia is what keeps me in the closet.. I say this because I am sure 100% sure I am staright.. How I know this is simple, I just can not be with another man( Nothing wrong with those who are ) .. easy.. How ever I do not understand urges to become female either, I think those go hand to hand in the spectrume IMO..






Speaking for myself and through years of supression I stired clear of any gays , I didn't want it tied into my dressing. It is popular belief that one is gay to be a crossdresser..
I will say I feel that my dressing and the fear of soceity linking it to me being gay has placed a homophobia tag on me.. Here and only here has proved that fear as just that a fear and until soceity see's it as the truth then that fear remains.. learned long ago this is not the place to do that.


Now Iam really confused.


Darn, you beat me too it!

YaY lateral thinking!

Pretty girls think alike..LOL

[Nicole Erin]

I want to join the crusade!

DOWN WITH PANTS! :Angry3:

I am going to start an army of those who feel the same way

DOWN WITH PANTS!

[curse within]

Now Iam really confused.What is so confussing about what I mentioned in another thread? This one is about gender NOT BEING GAY ( not that anything is wrong with that.. being gay ) Its just not who I am ..

I am a very out spoken straight male who does not have any desires to become female.. I admitted " JUST BEING HONEST THREAD" that in the past I stir clear of Gays ..HERE I said I didn't want to discuss sexuality what people do is their business..

Sorry Kelly just not gonna talk about peoples sexual preferances but I will openly admit I don't care for the GAY label to be part of the crossdressing label.. I can feel that way it's my right and the world needs to know that both straight and Gays . do crossdress.. Nothing wrong with that is there?

[kellycan27]

What is so confussing about what I mentioned in another thread? This one is about gender NOT BEING GAY ( not that anything is wrong with that.. being gay ) Its just not who I am ..

I am a very out spoken straight male who does not have any desires to become female.. I admitted " JUST BEING HONEST THREAD" that in the past I stir clear of Gays ..HERE I said I didn't want to discuss sexuality what people do is their business..

Sorry Kelly just not gonna talk about peoples sexual preferances but I will openly admit I don't care for the GAY label to be part of the crossdressing label.. I can feel that way it's my right and the world needs to know that both straight and Gays . do crossdress.. Nothing wrong with that is there?

Absolutely nothing wrong with that,my confusion stems from first you said that "fear of society linking you to gays " puts a homophobic label on you.So society tends to surpress your dressing.
But then you said that you can't blame society for you being surpressed. It just sort of sounded like you were blaming society, and now you're not. So I was a bit confused.
As far as anyones sexuality.. I never brought up the subject ..you did. I don't recall saying on thing about anyones sexuality. I just quoted what you said so that you may have a better idea why I said I was a bit confused. I already knew that you were a str8 as an arrow guy and a homophobe... nothing wrong with that.. different strokes and all that.
I don't know how much of the world that you are going to be able to reach in here... in regards to getting the messege out, but you do have the right to try. I do think that's it kind of funny that a man who dresses in girls clothing and professes to be a manly man, an alpha male could be reduced to cowering in a closet just because someone might think that he is gay. I suppose that's why they call it a phobia huh?
Just a thought, so no need to reply. In fact my confusion has turned to boredom................ I actually don't give a rat's b-hind what you think.

[curse within]

But Kelly there is no might thinking I know I am not ....Not that anything is wrong with it tho..I do not cower in the closet I choose to not share this self indulgeing lifestyle to the world .

As this thread started , who's fault is that? I suggested it was my own.. This isn't a pie throwing contest, I have nothing agaist peoples sexual preferance ,what I do not like is the automatic answer to anyone who may discover my dressing is me being gay.. A GG's fear is just that for most not all.. That was my only point, so if in anyway I offended you I am sorry wasn't my goal to do that.

[Jenny Brown]

I do think that's it kind of funny that a man who dresses in girls clothing and professes to be a manly man, an alpha male could be reduced to cowering in a closet just because someone might think that he is gay. I suppose that's why they call it a phobia huh?

Let me get this straight. Are you saying that cd's who are not out in public are homophobic? :doh:

[DaphneGrey]

The first thing out of most crossdressers mouths "I am not gay"

Who cares if someone thinks your gay! Who really cares if they think all crossdressers are gay? Does it really matter? Think about it for a second, are closed minded people going to like you all of a sudden once they find out your not gay? Hey that she male over there is supercool because I just found out that HeShee is not gay! It must be homophobia, frankly because it doesn't make much sense otherwise.

Strait gay or somewhere in between it is all good as far as I am concerned.... But for me personally my sex life is private I don't feel the need to broadcast my sexual preferences to any one. Think what you want. If anyone takes the time to get to know me they will discover whether I am strait gay or bi.

The second thing "It is not a sexual thing for me"

I must be in the minority here, but I am willing to say yes, Crossdressing particularly transforming is a very sensual and potentially erotic experience? There is thread after thread about how wonderful it feels to put on stockings! Panty threads (sorry Tamara, I really am with you on that one) Thread after thread about lingerie etc. Who exactly do you think your kidding?

Don't get me wrong here I love Lingerie and feeling sexy and looking as attractive as I can. But lets be honest about it, NOT VULGAR JUST HONEST

The third "I don't want to be a woman, I just want to dress like one"

You know I am a lover of Tight jeans an T shirts I can wear them with or without breast enhancement as I can most of my blouses. But I always wear a bra and subtle padding because I want to present as Female! I am a Transgendered woman I have no plans to transition so I guess I am a crossdresser, But I want to be perceived by myself and others as female (as much as I can) If I just wanted to wear the clothes I would just wear the clothes. For us it is clothes, makeup, body shaping, walk, voice, comportment, name.... a desire to pass. But I don't want to be a woman. Sounds a little silly I think. Hey this is no big deal I just celebrate halloween more often than most and I always go as the same thing. News flash nobody is buying it!

So if I were looking at our community (crossdressers) from the outside I would stereotype us by saying a bunch of guys who dress up like girls but are so afraid of themselves they cant even be honest with each other.

I am not trying to offend anyone here, I happen to believe the only way to true freedom is being honest first with ourselves and then with everyone else. we might as well, because were not fooling anyone.

Some of you may know I am part Native American, among other things. The starter of this thread mentions transgenderism being accepted up until the 19th century. And yes there are many examples of transgendered or third sex in many cultures including my own. One of the first people I came out to was a Cherokee, who explained that transgendered people or people of two spirits " Berdachi" as he called them were given respect and places of honor in tribal government.

It is by studying this history that I have been able to be as honest with myself and all of you. Reading the stories of these unique individuals who were able to live there lives openly without the negative pressure society puts on us today, the things they did, the way they worked, who and how they loved. And I thought wow that is how it is supposed to be for someone like me.

I too once said these same things, because that is what I thought would make what I am more palatable to the public, but it is just not the truth. I firmly believe that until we are willing to be honest with ourselves and each other about what we are and what motivates us. Than we can expect little from everyone else.

Just my two cents.

[MissConstrued]

Batty's been banging on about this for ages? :)

And on... and on... and...

Actually, though, I do find that subject very interesting.




what I do not like is the automatic answer to anyone who may discover my dressing is me being gay..


Ya know, I used to worry about that too. There was that whole guilt by association thing -- Guy in women's clothes = gay = liberal = Democrat = Obama voter.... So yeah, who would want to be associated with all that? I can totally understand.

But then I realized all that had no bearing on my life whatsoever. I could be dressed in my work gear, boots, hard hat, and wearing my nail bags... and someone walking by my jobsite might still think "gay." There's no controlling what other people think of you, no matter what you do.

I had that conversation with a former roommate once. "Aren't you afraid people will think you're gay?" he asked. Turns out, he was the gay one, and so far as I know, hasn't entirely come to terms with himself just yet. Bloody shame, that. Must suck being a gay homophobe. But anyway.

Bottom line, CW, is that even if a million people think you're gay, how does that affect your own sexuality? You can't change what everyone else thinks, but you can change how much you care.

[dawnmarrie1961]

Tolerance of transgendered/cross dressing individuals is more an economic phenomenon rather a societal factor. Society will tolerate anything so long as the economics as positive.

Transgendered/cross dressing individuals in history were more often holders of great wealth, knowledge or power. They held economic value. When their value diminished so did they.

Current trends in transgendered/cross dressing acceptance will only increase as the marketable value does.

[Lisa Golightly]

I can not blame soceity for my supression! I do not feel soceity beliefs toward homophobia is what keeps me in the closet.. I say this because I am sure 100% sure I am staright.. How I know this is simple, I just can not be with another man( Nothing wrong with those who are ) .. easy.. How ever I do not understand urges to become female either, I think those go hand to hand in the spectrume IMO..

Thank God you're not a diplomat.

[Sammy777]

get this straight. cd's who are out in public are homo

I don't know what to say to that. :D Being misquoted is a bitch isn't it!

[DaphneGrey]

Tolerance of transgendered/cross dressing individuals is more an economic phenomenon rather a societal factor. Society will tolerate anything so long as the economics as positive.

Transgendered/cross dressing individuals in history were more often holders of great wealth, knowledge or power. They held economic value. When their value diminished so did they.

Current trends in transgendered/cross dressing acceptance will only increase as the marketable value does.


I must disagree, transgendered individuals in Native America thrived until the arrival of the Dutch missionaries, It was wealth and corruption by the wealthy that destroyed this cherished way of life. As in many other primitive or aboriginal cultures. Berdachi is actually a Dutch word it means ***** or prostitute.

[curse within]

I must disagree, transgendered individuals in Native America thrived until the arrival of the Dutch missionaries, It was wealth and corruption by the wealthy that destroyed this cherished way of life. As in many other primitive or aboriginal cultures. Berdachi is actually a Dutch word it means ***** or prostitute. Daphne, I agree but it was also western culture that destroyed the native Indians ..The native Idians had wealth but of a different sort.. They also had values to each other in the tribe ( soceity ) ..

[Nicki B]

Who cares if someone thinks your gay! Who really cares if they think all crossdressers are gay? Does it really matter?

:yt: Surely, by expressing such concern all you show is YOU think it's important... Which says a lot about yourself. :sad:

(No Daphne, I don't mean you..)


Bloody shame, that. Must suck being a gay homophobe.

You don't think homophobia is really about self-repression? :strugglin


Berdachi is actually a Dutch word it means ***** or prostitute.

A point of order - Berdache is originally arab, meaning 'catamite', but was used in Middle Ages Europe to describe a 'man/woman'. It was most likely brought to the New World by the Spanish. It is widely rejected as a description, by native americans, as being offensive?

[Jenny Brown]

Who cares if someone thinks your gay! Who really cares if they think all crossdressers are gay? Does it really matter? Think about it for a second, are closed minded people going to like you all of a sudden once they find out your not gay? Hey that she male over there is supercool because I just found out that HeShee is not gay! It must be homophobia, frankly because it doesn't make much sense otherwise.

Your logic is flawed. Too bad they don't still have polls here. I think you'd find out that at least 75% of this forum disagrees with you. :straightface:

[Lisa Golightly]

Your logic is flawed. Too bad they don't still have polls here. I think you'd find out that at least 75% of this forum disagrees with you. :straightface:

That doesn't mean she's wrong.

[DaphneGrey]

:yt: Surely, by expressing such concern all you show is YOU think it's important... Which says a lot about yourself. :sad:

(No Daphne, I don't mean you.


A point of order - Berdache is originally arab, meaning 'catamite', but was used in Middle Ages Europe to describe a 'man/woman'. It was most likely brought to the New World by the Spanish. It is widely rejected as a description, by native americans, as being offensive?

This is very true, however according to the history I have studied, the the word in it's stated context was used by the Dutch. Also Berdache today is used by NA gay and transgendered individuals. We no longer find it offensive. There are many words Tribe to Tribe to describe the same condition.

I don't mean to sound snobish it is just that the two spirit movement is quite dear to me, and thank you so much for your post.


Your logic is flawed. Too bad they don't still have polls here. I think you'd find out that at least 75% of this forum disagrees with you. :straightface:

Logic is not subject to public opinion, my post is my opinion. If you dissagree that's fine, but this is how I feel and what I think, I really do not care if anyone agrees with me.

I broke out of one closet, I don't want to wind up In another.

[battybattybats]

Daphne, I agree but it was also western culture that destroyed the native Indians ..The native Idians had wealth but of a different sort.. They also had values to each other in the tribe ( soceity ) ..

Tiwi Islands (part of Australia) http://aboriginalrights.suite101.com/article.cfm/indigenous_homosexuality (emphasis in bold is mine)


Yimpininni - Sistergirls

"Sistergirls" has become a general term for transgender and transsexual men. But in the Tiwi Islands, it's a whole culture unto itself. There are 70 sistergirls living on the islands, and the numbers are growing every year. In that small community, Sistergirls account for a whopping 4% of the population.


Tonga crossdressers are respected, a crossdresser arranged the royal marriage celebrations.

Samoa has it's 'third sex' the Fa'fa'fine.

In Europe there was once greater TG acceptance. The Cybeline faith of the mediteranean were TSs for example. The Scythians had Transgender shamans/priests (as noted by Herodotus) as did many many cultures.

It wasnt that the wealthy and powerful were allowed to get away with being TG, but that being TG was not just accepted but often raised you in status wealth and power!

As such vilifying outlawing condemning and destroying TG as well as Gay Bi and Lesbian traditions was standard practice amongst colonial powers to demolish local power and place it all into the colonial systems of government and official religion/s.

[Jenny Brown]

Originally Posted by DaphneGrey
Who cares if someone thinks your gay! Who really cares if they think all crossdressers are gay? Does it really matter? Think about it for a second, are closed minded people going to like you all of a sudden once they find out your not gay? Hey that she male over there is supercool because I just found out that HeShee is not gay! It must be homophobia, frankly because it doesn't make much sense otherwise.



Logic is not subject to public opinion, my post is my opinion. If you dissagree that's fine, but this is how I feel and what I think, I really do not care if anyone agrees with me. I broke out of one closet, I don't want to wind up In another.
Ok, fine then. You're entitled to your "opinion" even if it makes no sense, as I am to mine. Works for me. :straightface:

[curse within]

Batty interesting link about the Island...I just wonder how much longer that culture will remain until it to is influenced..

[battybattybats]

Batty interesting link about the Island...I just wonder how much longer that culture will remain until it to is influenced..

Well in Samoa the Fa'fa'fine traditions survive despite the strong christian missionary presence. Tonga too. The Tiwi Islands are claiming back their TG traditions.

They have to struggle to keep these traditions. The influence is already there. Transphobia spreads when it is not oppossed. And Indiginous peoples have the same struggles with same-sex relationship traditions including same-sex marriage traditions, with the loss of traditional religious traditions, cultural traditions and loss of languages.

One recent example was from the Indiginous Australian tv program Living Black on SBS about the Indiginous participants at this years Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras where one person mentioned the impact on him of being told being gay was wrong in his culture by his tribal elders only to when studying the subject learn that there were recorded Dreaming stories of gay and transgender people, traditions that were his birthright. But this had been lost to the elders of his people or they had been turned against those traditions!

[curse within]

I really do find it ironic that such cultures exist to day, what is amaziing about them is reading not how they were suppressed in their time.. I have also learned that in Native American Indians Transgenderisim was not thought of as a natured error. They did not force masculine or feminize their young.

Their belief was your body was made from the earth by the Gods your soul was inserted into this vessel and it had purpose for that happening. Every member in a tribe ( soceity ) had use, it built the strength of the community.
Just as young braves hunted and batteled to provied food and safety , young women cooked, gathered and cared for the offspring.

Transgendered use was staying behind while the hunting and fighting took place , they served as protectors ,they also aided in cooking, gathering and careing for the young. This seems to be the trend for alot of other past soceitys in other parts of the world with small differences but the Transgendered where in a important role that maintained survival for these communitys to exist.

How could such a role be ousted? What made modern soceity reject this third sex?

[Nicki B]

Ok, fine then. You're entitled to your "opinion" even if it makes no sense, as I am to mine. Works for me. :straightface:

So - which bit don't you agree with? :strugglin

That whether you're gay or not shouldn't matter, or that the people who think it does are likely to be homophobic?


Also Berdache today is used by NA gay and transgendered individuals. We no longer find it offensive. There are many words Tribe to Tribe to describe the same condition.

I have a good friend who has Klinefelter's syndrome, who has been involved with 'Two Spirit' and native american people for a long while - he refuses to countenance the word, because his NA friends find it demeaning. It has a long history of being applied to the tribes by the europeans?

[celeste26]

Sorry Cursed I dont agree.

You wrote
I tried as I may to learn and educate myself on how Transgender people lived, and how they were accepted by the society they lived in from our distant past. I was amazed with the tolerance the western cultures had up until the late 19th century.. In Europe most nobles and royalty were Transgender, religion beliefs declined the favored lifestyle...Many Eastern Cultures embarrassed the lifestyle even today ,unless influenced by western beliefs..

There might have been a very small sampling of people over the ages that might be described as TG but far less than your statement implies and certainly not "most" of any class of people.

The confusion lies in the culture from which you extract the information and one cannot compare items or 'looks' across the ages. In fact the clothing of males and females has changed over the years and by today's standards it might appear to be something that in the context of the times it is not, and the presentation as the opposite is usually very rare.

The only acceptable venue for crossdressing has been the theater over that extended time period. This is true even in the orient. Where men took roles of traditional women and presented as opposites. But one cannot legitimately compare today (21st century) American standards to those limited actors roles. It makes no logical sense and gives people the wrong information too.

Wigs for instance were very poplar in the 18 century for men and women there was no implication that they were crossing any sexual or gender role rules. Likewise many other articles of clothing that to our eyes "look" like modern female garb. If there was no intent on crossing a line then it was simply not cross dressing.

I didn't see the TV show you indicated this information came from but it represents nothing of mainstream historical perspective on the subject. Sorry but we aren't likely to be able to infer anything from such poor research, much less some general acceptance 'in history' that just wasn't there.

[curse within]

Sorry Cursed I dont agree.

You wrote

There might have been a very small sampling of people over the ages that might be described as TG but far less than your statement implies and certainly not "most" of any class of people.

The confusion lies in the culture from which you extract the information and one cannot compare items or 'looks' across the ages. In fact the clothing of males and females has changed over the years and by today's standards it might appear to be something that in the context of the times it is not, and the presentation as the opposite is usually very rare.

The only acceptable venue for crossdressing has been the theater over that extended time period. This is true even in the orient. Where men took roles of traditional women and presented as opposites. But one cannot legitimately compare today (21st century) American standards to those limited actors roles. It makes no logical sense and gives people the wrong information too.

Wigs for instance were very poplar in the 18 century for men and women there was no implication that they were crossing any sexual or gender role rules. Likewise many other articles of clothing that to our eyes "look" like modern female garb. If there was no intent on crossing a line then it was simply not cross dressing.

I didn't see the TV show you indicated this information came from but it represents nothing of mainstream historical perspective on the subject. Sorry but we aren't likely to be able to infer anything from such poor research, much less some general acceptance 'in history' that just wasn't there.

Its fine and I agree with you as well..If crossdressing was the subject but it's not..Transgender has been around for years and how they imulated was compared to femme things in the era of the times.

I cannot elaberate anymore on this subject other than what I posted in order to be more sensitive to the spectrume..

Thanks fot the post..

[dawnmarrie1961]

Daphne, You are absolutely right in regards to the Native Americans. Indians often used gender deception as a tool to infiltrate into enemy tribes. Certain roots were used to transform warriors by soften appearance and give them the non threatening look of women. In other word these guys looked very "hot". The opposing warriors couldn't keep their hands off them. But once in the privacy of the enemies tee pee, at night, this supposed squaw used quick sheath to cut as many off the enemies throats before finally being discovered for what she really was. It was a practice that worked.:devil:

[Carly D.]

I was watching the tube the other day (tube?? flat screen, what are they gonna call that now??) and on one of the morning shows they were talking bras and something I didn't have a clue about is women are supposed to buy a whole new set of bras every six months because of the little changes here and there that their bodies go through.. I didna know that.. anyway.. thought I'd put that where it really doesn't belong.. here in a response to stereo equipment.. or rather stereotypes..

[Pauline Lauren]

I want to join the crusade!

DOWN WITH PANTS! :Angry3:

I am going to start an army of those who feel the same way

DOWN WITH PANTS!

That had me LMAO!! Where are your recruiting offices going to be located??

:D

Pauline

[DaphneGrey]

So - which bit don't you agree with? :strugglin

That whether you're gay or not shouldn't matter, or that the people who think it does are likely to be homophobic?



I have a good friend who has Klinefelter's syndrome, who has been involved with 'Two Spirit' and native american people for a long while - he refuses to countenance the word, because his NA friends find it demeaning. It has a long history of being applied to the tribes by the europeans?

Yes I am sure you are right about that, I and many others however, choose not to worry about such things. As I stated before it was a full blood Cherokee who used the word to describe me. I would also point out that many Native Americans including myself refer to themselves as Indian and prefer it to The native American, not in political or academic circles mind you but in real life.

I do not know what your friend does, but if he offers his assistance to the Two Spirit movement or the Native American cause in any way, He has my respect and admiration and scincerest thanks.

My point in bring this up is not to have the last word. But my involvement in dealing with Native American causes is very real. When you are dealing with real people, and real problems. Poverty, Crime, Drug and Alchohal Abuse, Gang culture, corruption and the myriad of other things that create a hurrendous envirnment for Gay and Transgendered youth. Semantics and the roots of words become of little concern.

[battybattybats]

How could such a role be ousted? What made modern soceity reject this third sex?

Well in idiginous cultures this was destroyed usually by destroying as much of the native way of life as possible and forcing them to live in a western manner, usually as slaves or serfs.

Speaking the native language was banned. Following native beliefs was banned. The gun and the noose imposed part of this. Stealling children from parents and raising them in religious missions was another.

Within 1 generation a thriving culture under assault and domination from a technologically superior but numerically inferior force can be decimated by foreigh disease, the language massively supressed, religion replaced...

It's actually not that hard. It was done in nation after nation.

Often the oppression of TG and sexuality has been part of taking power. We make great scapegoats and symbols of the 'bad old ways'.

The Abrahamic faiths all had times of pro-TG acceptance. There is evidence that there are several TG people in the bible for example, Josephs 'coat of many colours' is according to some academics going back to the earlier language Josephs 'dress worn by Princesses'!

However the political forms of these faiths are largely part of the oppression of other cultures and of TG and GLB people. Even when such things were contrary to the actual faiths tenants. Because it's politically useful to have scapegoats to hate.

As for acceptance of TG people in Europe.. it's false to say they only had acceptance in the theatres for three reasons, one is that in much of europes history actors were often despised anyway and at times the theatre itself was banned as immoral! The second is that effeminate castrati were often lauded to an extreme degree with crossdressing eunachs the rockstars of their day chased by both men and women... Europe is a big place with a complex history and one cannot eassilly compare the liberal parts of Venetian history with uritan England. The last is that some of those traditions are only dying out now! such as the FtM tradition in Albania http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1841280/posts

[DaphneGrey]

Ok, fine then. You're entitled to your "opinion" even if it makes no sense, as I am to mine. Works for me. :straightface:

You say my opinion makes no sense. Can you elaborate?

I wrote a post about being open and honest, drew on my own life experiences asked reasonable questions and exposed myself in the process.

To which you responded with a poll? Now that does not really make sense to me as I was challenging collective opinion in the first place or mor accurately collective practice.

Groups which appear nonconformist to society tend to be ultra conformist to themselves. So the less I agree with polls the better for me. Generally it means I am thinking for myself.

Something I said has obviously touched a nerve so why not start with that, I would really like to hear your thoughts. How do you feel? Not the 75 percent who dissagree, you.