Normal, liars or selfish

[AndreaRose]

The common idea on this forum is that crossdressing is a normal or atleast relatively normal thing. I've been thinking is it normal though, are crossdressers just liars, they lie to others, not being what they seem, and/or they lie to themselves, that what they are is normal and not a problem or that they are just a neutral gender and not possibly a homosexual. The other idea is that it's based in selfishness all about indulging themselves and not caring enough about others, looking to themselves to acheive what they want.

I'm sure that the response on this forum will be mostly that what I think is wrong and that I am talking out of my ass. However, I am becoming more steadfast in the idea that crossdressing is not a normal human behavior and one that needs to be corrected.

[linnea]

If you are a crossdresser and you think that crossdressing needs to be corrected, then you should take the initiative and correct yourself. If you can't accomplish this on your own, seek help (counseling or psychiatric care).
I don't happen to think that crossdressing is abnormal; I believe that it is one of many forms of self-expression in a broad range of self-expression. Further, I think that for some crossdressers their crossdressing involves some genetic influences and certainly when it comes to how crossdressers dress there are social and cultural influences.
But once you venture into the "normal" discussion, you are moving in very vague, if not impossible, territory.
The deceptions practiced by some crossdressers is yet another complicated realm. Some maintain secrecy because they fear recriminations from employers, mockery from associates, and snubs from strangers. The general population of American society has not responded to crossdressing with a lot of empathy or understanding.
As to selfishness, I think that anyone who puts time, money, energy, and effort into a pastime, hobby, activity might be accused of behaving selfishly because those resources might be used to the limitation or detriment of others and their desires. But this is hardly unique to crossdressing and crossdressers. Bowlers, fishers, stamp collectors, sports enthusiasts, car hobbyist, house restorers, etc.--all can and have taken their pursuits to extreme levels (or what non-enthusiasts might deem extreme levels).
I don't really know what aperture you're talking out of. I don't take offense at your questions or your insinuations. I do, however, think that you've over-generalized.

[Deedee Dupree]

At first those who were subject to the most severe gender conditioning, those who took the lies to heart, especially at a young age ... lied to themselves(denial) and to others to conceal the unacceptable. Over a period of time some realize, although they are in a minority with respect to the general public, they are in fact an authentic variety of human being that is not sick. And within our community with it's wide variety we don't have to lie to our selves or others. We are all a "normal" part of our community. It may be true that there are some who are selfish, totally self contained individuals, who use convienient
"norms" as a cover, but that is another issue.

IMO, The correction required is first, the education that leads to self acceptace, then to promote acceptance among the general public in ways that are not detrimental to one's situation

dd

[Tanya C]

Crossdressing is not an affliction, self loathing is. You can waste time beating your head against a wall over something that is an indelible part of your personality, or you can choose to accept and embrace it.
I hope you make the healthy choice.

Tanya

[trannie T]

Crossdressing may not meet your defination of "normal" but it is a common activity. Some crossdressers do lie to others about their lives. I doubt that many of us have chosen to be crossdressers, rather crossdressing is simply an irreversable part of our personalities. Sadly there are some of us who have not accepted that part of our psyche. Self loathing is a self destructive behavior. Nothing good comes of self loathing.

[VikkiVixen7188]

If your a crossdresser then you need to stop hating yourself. I have never lied, in fact I make for an extremely passable girl and go out of my way to correct peoples.. I don't think it is normal, but that doesn't mean it is an illness either.

If your not a crossdresser, than have a coke and a smile and piss off. Your coke and smile have been provided :drink: :D

[Lisa Golightly]

This is your own issue... and there are plenty out there that consider you need 'correcting'. You need to seek them out... They'll only be too happy to help you, but they are a strange bunch with extremist ideas.

For the others here who accept themselves and just lead normal lives... Self-loathing is not an option... or if it was it lies in a dim and distant past when we were too immature to understand who we were.

[Sheila]

I'm sure that the response on this forum will be mostly that what I think is wrong and that I am talking out of my a$$.


I am a GG so come at it from a slightly different angle from CDER and Yeah I can agree with the quote above especilally the bit in red.

Each of us have the right to different opinions so you do have the right to yours as I do mine

[GypsyKaren]

If you can't respond without insults then don't respond at all, I'm deleting them and you're just buying yourself trouble.

Karen :wheelchair:

[Mollyanne]

If you are a crossdresser and you think that crossdressing needs to be corrected, then you should take the initiative and correct yourself. If you can't accomplish this on your own, seek help (counseling or psychiatric care).
I don't happen to think that crossdressing is abnormal; I believe that it is one of many forms of self-expression in a broad range of self-expression. Further, I think that for some crossdressers their crossdressing involves some genetic influences and certainly when it comes to how crossdressers dress there are social and cultural influences.
But once you venture into the "normal" discussion, you are moving in very vague, if not impossible, territory.
The deceptions practiced by some crossdressers is yet another complicated realm. Some maintain secrecy because they fear recriminations from employers, mockery from associates, and snubs from strangers. The general population of American society has not responded to crossdressing with a lot of empathy or understanding.
As to selfishness, I think that anyone who puts time, money, energy, and effort into a pastime, hobby, activity might be accused of behaving selfishly because those resources might be used to the limitation or detriment of others and their desires. But this is hardly unique to crossdressing and crossdressers. Bowlers, fishers, stamp collectors, sports enthusiasts, car hobbyist, house restorers, etc.--all can and have taken their pursuits to extreme levels (or what non-enthusiasts might deem extreme levels).
I don't really know what aperture you're talking out of. I don't take offense at your questions or your insinuations. I do, however, think that you've over-generalized.

WOW, COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT BETTER!!!!!!!

Mollyanne

[MissConstrued]

However, I am becoming more steadfast in the idea that crossdressing is not a normal human behavior


Of course it isn't. But for a few hundred thousand years, neither was sitting your ass on a couch watching football. Or driving a car. Or wearing shoes. Or wearing condoms.


Define normal! Then ask yourself why you should give a shit.

[Sammy777]

The common idea on this forum is that crossdressing is a normal or atleast relatively normal thing.
However, I am becoming more steadfast in the idea that crossdressing is not a normal human behavior.

that what they are is normal and not a problem or that they are just a neutral gender and not possibly a homosexual.

I think once we cut through the CD'ing BS we come to the real root of your problem that is plainly stated in the last part quoted above.

It seems you are using CD'ing as a way to cover your real feelings of thinking homosexuality is "not normal and should be corrected".

Just a though.

[battybattybats]

It's not lying anymore than being gay is lying.

People have no right to expect a woman or a man will be straight. So they have no right to expect everyone in a skirt has XX chromosomes and not XY or XXY etc etc (lets not forget the Intersex folk, they are 1 in every 60 or so people after all)

Even if you pass no-one has a right to expect what structure exists in your panties or to assume you will want them getting into them.

And a few hundred years ago in most of the world CDs were an understood and accepted part of daily life in much of the world.

Not every CD is closeted, and those who are start in the closet because of transphobia and so thats not our fault but something we suffer! The blame for the closets existence is on those who forced CDing into a punished taboo.

But it is up to us to undo that (as no-one will do it for us) so our responsibility is to undo that once we can.. if we have a responsibility to be open about being a CD it first requires overcoming Internalised Transphobia that we are not to blame for suffering.

I'm out to most people I know. I came out to my ex GF of nearly 6 years in about a week or so of the first date. My day-to-day presentation is of mixed-gender expression and plenty of people who've seen me fully en-femme have recognised me.

It's normal. It's existed for thousands of years in every human society. It's not selfish.

[jessiejess112]

I can see how the wife of a cd that does not approve of this behavior, might think that crossdressing is a problem that needs to be corrected. But when you are a cd, you are born this way: crossdressing is not something that you can just turn off.
You know sometimes I do wish I could just turn these feelings off: I spend way too much money on buying women's clothes that I only wear in private. And crossdressing takes up way too much of my time and effort.
Not to mention worrying constantly about my conservative Family finding out that I'm a crossdresser. But it is part of my personality and it is something that I have learn to live with. To be honest, I also enjoy seeing how I look after all the trouble I go through: this is how I am and I can only control it to a certain extent, but I can't change it.
Since I am single, my crossdressing does not affect anybody but me, the question is what do I do when and if, I find the girl that I want to marry. From what I've read in this forum, SO's reactions are very unpredictable.
So your post is interesting because it did make me think about how a person who disapproves of crossdressing might view me.

[Tracey Corset]

The common idea on this forum is that crossdressing is a normal or atleast relatively normal thing. I've been thinking is it normal though, are crossdressers just liars, they lie to others, not being what they seem, and/or they lie to themselves, that what they are is normal and not a problem or that they are just a neutral gender and not possibly a homosexual. The other idea is that it's based in selfishness all about indulging themselves and not caring enough about others, looking to themselves to acheive what they want.

I'm sure that the response on this forum will be mostly that what I think is wrong and that I am talking out of my ass. However, I am becoming more steadfast in the idea that crossdressing is not a normal human behavior and one that needs to be corrected.

Andrea you sound very bitter to me
The other idea is that it's based in selfishness all about indulging themselves and not caring enough about others, looking to themselves to acheive what they want. If i were the selfish type i would be dressed as a girl 24/7 and not worry about my wife and familys feelings, but as it is i have a wife who loves the female me but doesnt want the rest of the family to know, thats fair enough, i think you have deeper underlying issues here and maybe you need to talk to someone

[Samantha Kelsey]

Normal?

Normality is relative. In certain parts of the Amazon jungle it's totally normal to walk about totally naked but if you did it in the centre of New York I would guess you'd be classed as very Abnormal.

In my opinion it would seem that these days it's totally normal to lie, cheat and be selfish, not that I think it's right but it just be that way.

As for 'Not telling' well, thats not lying. If the governments of the world told all then there would be chaos. We all have a right 'not to tell'. Isn't there an amendment in the USA for just this? and in the UK arrested people are told "You don't have to say anything but...." Maybe I'm wrong, you tell me.

As for me, open and upfront, Not gay, my girlfriend knew all about me before she met me and ALL my family and close friends know about me. I told them.
Perhaps I'm not normal eh..?

[Honeygirl]

I'm sorry but I cannot help wonder if sometimes a post like this is written to create as much response as possible.

I am not suggesting there may not be genuine questions behind the original post but I'm sorry I didn't feel it was written with alot of consideration or sensitivity to those who would ulitmately take time out to think about the points raised and take the trouble to reply. Perhaps it was originally written out of personal frustrations than any intentional lack of sensitivity?

I really do hope you do find the answers you are looking for, truly I do.

For 'my two pennies worth' I would like to thank Linnea at the very start of the responses to this thread as I felt you said everything I wanted to say!

Hugs :o
Honey.

[Georgia Rose]

The common idea on this forum is that crossdressing is a normal or atleast relatively normal thing. However, I am becoming more steadfast in the idea that crossdressing is not a normal human behavior and one that needs to be corrected.

I've cut out the stuff that doesn't matter. Please tell me what is normal. If you got any sizeable group of people together very few of them would be "normal". Each and everyone of them is different in many ways. Society just glosses over the abnormalities of most people and tries to put us all in a box called "normal". Especially when the difference is related to some sexual aspect (like dressing as the opposit sex) a personal is considered "not normal". Human's have a herd mentality and feel threatened by things they don't understand and so it is easy to dismiss anyone who is different as not "normal". In reality who cares!

[Ze xx]

Firstly define 'normal'.

Secondly, as to it being a selfish thing, well, yes it can be, but so can so called 'normal' hobbies and habits if they are done to the exclusion of all others. It's just as selfish to be a 'normal' heterosexual male who spends all weekend fishing as it is to want to spend all your time dressing and paying no attention to your partner and/or family.

[Jazzmine]

If you ran a contest across the whole nation to find 'the most normal person' you would indeed eventually narrow it down to the one person who was most normal - the winner of the contest.

Yet even that person would have a high degree of uniqueness about them and do some things which were quite 'abnormal'.

The point is, there is only uniqueness in this world. All this uniqueness makes up normal. Everything is normal in some way or another and yet we are all unique. Go figure!

If you try and be 'normal' you would never achieve it because even normal people have choices to make every day and thus become unique because of it.

Go ahead and beat yourself up about being a CD - 'correct' it as you say- but please do not claim that you are 'normal' once it's done. You will never achieve 'normalness' because it is a subjective myth! (or maybe a halucination imposed by BIG BROTHER ...aaargghh ... as they carried me away to the normal brainwashing school)

Hugs Jazzmine

[Jeanna]

I'm sure that the response on this forum will be mostly that what I think is wrong and that I am talking out of my ass. However, I am becoming more steadfast in the idea that crossdressing is not a normal human behavior and one that needs to be corrected.[/QUOTE]

First of all,most of us are looking for acceptance for something we can't cure nor should we have to,we're not sick.I really angers me when someone puts the "oh you need mental help because you like to wear women's clothing". If you realy want to help in this forum,tell us how to put on hose with long nails,walk and talk like a lady and to just accept that we are normal people in a not so normal world!


Of course it isn't. But for a few hundred thousand years, neither was sitting your ass on a couch watching football. Or driving a car. Or wearing shoes. Or wearing condoms.


Define normal! Then ask yourself why you should give a shit.

Well said

[gender_blender]

The common idea on this forum is that crossdressing is a normal or atleast relatively normal thing. I've been thinking is it normal though, are crossdressers just liars, they lie to others, not being what they seem, and/or they lie to themselves, that what they are is normal and not a problem or that they are just a neutral gender and not possibly a homosexual. The other idea is that it's based in selfishness all about indulging themselves and not caring enough about others, looking to themselves to acheive what they want.

I'm sure that the response on this forum will be mostly that what I think is wrong and that I am talking out of my ass. However, I am becoming more steadfast in the idea that crossdressing is not a normal human behavior and one that needs to be corrected.

I somewhat agree with your conservative statements, however "lying" implies a malicious intent. I think that some mislead without disclosing the fact that they're transgender, which is why I'm always honest and upfront since I've been on the receiving end of some unintentional misleading because I pass pretty well without trying.

It is the curse of society to promote distinct gender roles and blatant stereotypical assumptions.

[DinaMature]

I'm challenged to know where to start in responding to this post. I did check your profile and see you've been a member for quite some time; certainly much longer than I've been here. I do not know how old you are, and that might be relevant in my assessment of your remarks here.

Perhaps the one remark that most demands response is the assertion that crossdressing isn't normal and needs correction, followed closely by (what I intrepret as) the thinly veiled 'accusation' that we are homosexual.
Your extensive tenure here does give these remarks more impact... I'd expect these from a newcomer, a potential lurker. I'd certainly not expect them from someone whose been through so much time apparently walking the walk.

My response? I feel like you're in some funk, the proverbial 'self loathing'; I think like many humans you generalize your reality onto the group around you; I do know my own reality belies any truth in your assessment.

I'm not gay... I've had my own encounters that have successfully freed me from that concern. I can't be 'repaired' or 'corrected'... that would imply something is 'wrong'.

If life isn't working out for you, it's not correct behaviour to spread your misery, seeking validation that the current situation isn't 'your fault'. Instead, seek counsel, seek solace but don't act like a cornered wounded animal that becomes destructive out of pain and fear. Your current state of mind is the same one that causes feral mothers to eat their young.

I can't speak to what ails you, I certainly can't suggest a cure. Prayer and spiritual insight might be suggested, a time on the couch of a counselor or psychiatrist could help you examine your situation more fully.

But broad accusations cast upon your peers won't change the group or free you from your own chains of angst.

Frankly, there is too much good in the world for me to worry much about your assessment of me/us, I don't know you well enough to care or condemn, I do hope you find solace and redemption.

May god be with you.

[Charlena]

I believe if everyone was allowed (or brave enough) to be who they truely are then we would have to rewrite the difinitions of weird and normal.

[Kate Simmons]

Being "normal" notwithstanding, most of us just do the best we can with what we have to work with my friend.:)

[TGMarla]

Arianna's right, Andrea. Most of us are just doing what we can to get by with what we have. Why crack on us like this? What is this going to accomplish? Our behavior is "not normal" and "needs to be corrected"?

Well, as others have already asked, what do you consider "normal"? Should we all suddenly lose our individuality and fly straight? Or are you just suggesting that we stop flitting around in high heels? By your standards, I assume, "normal" is doing only what society in general deems acceptable, as long as it's not illegal. Any movement to one side or the other is "not normal".

And how would you suggest that we go about correcting this abnormality? I've been exercising this particular behavior pattern on one level or another for 37 years. Should I just suddenly up and quit? I don't even know how to not crossdress. And not doing this would probably make me morose and unhappy. It that an acceptable "normal" for you? Is that really better? Look, if you are unhappy being a crossdresser (assuming that you are a crossdresser), then by all means, quit if you can. As for me, it helps keep me sane and happy.

As for that long tenure that Dina alluded to (and the reason I question whether you are actually a crossdresser)...you joined in January of 2006, and you are already on your 11th post! Wow! That's almost one post every four months! Slow down, honey! It's overwhelming us!

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Books have been written on this, from nearly every point of view from TG is a perfectly okay way to be to it being a serious pathology in need of intervention and therapy.

To me, gender, which is what we're talking about, how you feel inside about yourself, masculine or feminine, lies along a continuum. No one is 100% one or the other, though lots of guys will hotly declare they are. I even think you can kind of shuffle along that line, sometimes feeling more masculine, sometimes more feminine. Nothing about feeling a particular way about yourself is "wrong" in and of itself.

Normalcy or being "normal" is a social construct and has varied from one era to another, from one social group to another, from one setting to another. Behavior considered normal at one time among one group would be considered wildly abnormal or even dangerous in another. Your normal probably isn't mine.

If you don't like how you are, then go get yourself fixed, but don't try to generalize from your own feelings to how all of us are or should be. Good luck.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[LisaM]

However, I am becoming more steadfast in the idea that crossdressing is not a normal human behavior and one that needs to be corrected.

It really comes down to your definition of normal. I think there are a lot of men that like women's clothing so to me it appears normal.

Also, I object to your statement that it needs to be corrected. Why does it need to be corrected? Is it harmful? Does it have to be corrected because it is not deemed 'normal'? What about other habits or behavior that is not deemed normal? Do they have to be corrected? I don't think mountain climbing is normal and it certainly can be harmful. Should that be corrected? What about nose rings? I don't find them normal. Should we correct people who have them? They may not be harmful but they look like they may have hurt when they were received.

I have learned to accept myself and I realize that most people harbor secrets of some type so I've come to accept that all people are normal and all of them are different from each other.[/QUOTE]

[DameErrant]

So what if CDing is not Normal? Normal is just a statistic average, and tells us nothing about whether it's right or wrong, a neccessity for us or just a hobby, whether it is a real expression of who we are or a head game we are playing with ourselves. For me it is a good thing, a neccessity and an expression of who I really am.

Normal? What does that mean? To comform to statisitical averages, I would have to be a middle aged female, I.Q. around 100 (by definition,) High School diploma only, deep in debt, probably a white ethnic, and nominally a church goer. Which of these am I really? Does it matter?

And in any event, I think Normal is over rated. I am me, and I don't care if I conform to the statisitical average.

[Celeste]

So what if CDing is not Normal? Normal is just a statistic average, and tells us nothing about whether it's right or wrong, a neccessity for us or just a hobby, whether it is a real expression of who we are or a head game we are playing with ourselves. For me it is a good thing, a neccessity and an expression of who I really am.

Normal? What does that mean? To comform to statisitical averages, I would have to be a middle aged female, I.Q. around 100 (by definition,) High School diploma only, deep in debt, probably a white ethnic, and nominally a church goer. Which of these am I really? Does it matter?

And in any event, I think Normal is over rated. I am me, and I don't care if I conform to the statisitical average.

I agree with everything above,and would add that we all seek self gratification in one form or another.It is about achieving some sense of happiness in life.

I,m not one to question the means by which one attempts to achieve it,it's simply their conception and their personal idea.Personally I'm willing to grant one that space

[Lorileah]

However, I am becoming more steadfast in the idea that crossdressing is not a normal human behavior and one that needs to be corrected.

First you have to define "normal". This is difficult because "normal" for some is abnormal for others. If you take normal as the high point of a bell curve 99.9% of the world falls outside that and would need to be corrected. If you define normal as being inside the bell curve you have to delineate the points and the normal shifts to fit someone's perception.

So in your world it isn't normal. Your world is not my world or anyone else's. (bad grammar pardon me)

Now technically wearing any clothing may not be a normal human behavior. We are born into the world naked. We are prescribed by the views of the society we live in that clothing is required. Depending on the climate, one would be very able to survive naked. Clothing was at first a way to protect us from the environment. It allowed humans to expand.

The idea of sexually suited clothing is relative. Often it suited a paternal need for access or subjugation. It wasn't a practical matter. It was to please the eye of the beholder in history where males were the dominant gender. As civilization moved on, the idea of clothing to attract a mate was not limited to one sex vs another. Even though the male was the dominant gender it was imperative to attract at least one female to procreate. So costumes that were more ceremonial rather than practical were used. Whereas before the ability to hunt and kill was more important than looks, now that we had more control over our environment, a mate had to have something to attract a partner. That became colorful clothing or something to enhance a sexual organ (Long pointy shoes suggested that the wearer had a larger organ...thus now CD's find it hard to find shoes that fit because our ancestors liked men with big...feet).

Before this gets into a deep dissertation that most the CD's here know by heart (yes it is unfair that women "get" to wear whatever...we have been through that before). Most of what we as CD's wear was once "ours" to start with. 400 years ago a man in makeup was the "norm". Pumps were originally worn by pages in the court and were named because they had a sound that resembled a pump when one walked. Our founding fathers wore wigs and silk stockings. With the exception of a bra (which was not invented until the 20th century) everything we wear was at one time "normal" male attire. Since I have not found the stone tablet that described male/female attire, we will have to say that nature doesn't care what we wear. If it was based on practicality it would still depend on your environment. Leather breeches and a tunic would be highly impractical in the Sahara.

So "normal" is hard to define. If you feel it is abnormal, then you need to find a way to adhere to what you feel is normal. But normal would be such a fine area that no matter what you decide, you will be abnormal to the person next to you. You are normal for you, I am normal for me, and as long as normalcy does not interfere with your ability to survive and procreate (the only true needs of any species) then you cannot press upon us your concepts. As civilization moves along and humans get more control over their environment, clothing will always be a personal thing. If you wish to adhere to arbitrary rules, then I guess you are normal.

But to paraphrase either GB Shaw or Robert Kennedy, "Most people look at something and ask 'why'? I look at it and ask 'why not?'"

SO why is this abnormal?

[Melissa A.]

I'm sorry but I cannot help wonder if sometimes a post like this is written to create as much response as possible

...Uh, yeah.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

[happygirl]

this is not a girlfriend, this is a play for us. To have the teeth to say what she says spouts hate, not love and understanding

[DinaMature]

this is not a girlfriend, this is a play for us. To have the teeth to say what she says spouts hate, not love and understanding

back to my referance earlier of a lurker... ie read "spy"

[Sammy777]

Main Entry: nor·mal (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/normal)
2 a: according with, constituting, or not deviating from a norm, rule, or principle
So what? In order to be "normal" you have to follow the rules?
Which leads to part two below.

b: conforming to a type, standard, or regular pattern
So if 6 out of 10 people do something, it is automatically considered the norm, or "rule" and the other 4 people in the group must now "conform" in order to fit in


[I]3: occurring naturally
Straight/Bi/Gay/Lesbian as well as CD/TS people are born that way.
So isn't the shear fact of being born make you normal?

4 a: of, relating to, or characterized by average intelligence or development b: free from mental disorder : sane
A rational [normal] person will suit themselves to their surroundings.
An Irrational [not normal] person will change their surroundings to suit themselves.

What does this mean?
A rational person will live under a tree.
An irrational person will cut down those trees and build a dwelling with them.

So on that it can be said that: Every social and technological advancement made by the human race since the dawn of time has been made by IRRATIONAL people.

So with that being said, if given the choice, I will gladly hang out with all the irrational people on the planet then the "normal" rational people.

[dawnmarrie1961]

Who defines what is normal? If your answer is : Society. Than you are probably looking to Society for acceptance.
The question amongst cder's should be: Who's acceptance is paramount to my well being and happiness?
Some would say "God's".But she already accepted you, long before you were born.
Some would say "my S0 or family members". Yes. Good answer. But not entirely correct.
In order to receive acceptance by anyone you must "first" accept yourself.
If you don't.
How can you expect it from others?
There is nothing selfish about needing to accept yourself first.
Isn't that why we try to teach our children to "judge not others lest you yourself be judged?"
I'm not trying to preach from the pulpit here. I'm just trying to make some common sense.

[Prissy Linda]

The common idea on this forum is that crossdressing is a normal or atleast relatively normal thing. I've been thinking is it normal though, are crossdressers just liars, they lie to others, not being what they seem, and/or they lie to themselves, that what they are is normal and not a problem or that they are just a neutral gender and not possibly a homosexual. The other idea is that it's based in selfishness all about indulging themselves and not caring enough about others, looking to themselves to acheive what they want.

I'm sure that the response on this forum will be mostly that what I think is wrong and that I am talking out of my ass. However, I am becoming more steadfast in the idea that crossdressing is not a normal human behavior and one that needs to be corrected.

I suggest you quit dressing up like a woman and start acting like a normal man, stop lying and being selfish. Simple.

[Miranda-E]

back to my referance earlier of a lurker... ie read "spy"

very good point

[dawnmarrie1961]

One Point:
If eight out of ten people you work with think you're an @-hole, that doesn't mean you work with eight haters, or that only one person at work understands you, it means you're an @-hole!!!
Crossdressers don't get a "pass" on their societal obligations, all the same rules apply. Personality doesn't affect Character. You don't have to like everyone, but you have to respect everyone.


Good point.
I'm sure we can all agree that from time to time we all act like a bunch of @-holes.

And you are absolutely correct on the societal obligation to respect everyone, even if you don't like them.

Good common sense.

[Jaclyn NM]

Who knows what"normal" really is? I think it all depends on the social mores at the time. For example, look at the progress gays have made in the last thirty years. It still bugs me that it is "normal" for females to wear male clothing, but unacceptable for males to wear female clothing. Why is that? It probably won't change in my lifetime, and I do regret that. It would be so nice not to have this double standard.

[sometimes_miss]

Andrea, life isn't a simple thing. It's often very, very complicated. The 'lying' to others and ourselves about our gender identity and sexual orientation isn't necessarily lying, just because we haven't figured out exactly what we are just yet. For example, some people brand certain behaviors as strictly homosexual, and believe that anyone who ever practices that behavior must be gay. But that doesn't make it true. And, of course, neither is the reverse. Just because a guy likes to kiss girls doesn't make him straight either!
We live in a wide gender spectrum, and sometimes it takes a long time to figure out exactly who and what we are.

Yes, crossdressing is an aberration, but so would wearing a winter coat in the summertime be. That doesn't make it a problem unless the one doing it feels that it is.

Andrea, not all of life is about our being and doing what others want us to be. Our lives are our own; yes, should we wish to dedicate it to selflessly giving up any and all of our own pleasures to help others we can do so. But I have no plans of being a martyr to make the rest of the world happy.

Face it, we live in a world where many people feel they have the right to tell others how to live, no matter how miserable it makes them.

No, crossdressing is not 'normal' behavior, but neither are lots of other things. But it is harmless to the rest of the population, and as such, we shouldn't be mistreated the ways we often are. Nor is there any way known to correct this behavior without causing other problems. There is no valid reason to 'correct' us.

JMHO.

[Sarah...]

One Point:
If eight out of ten people you work with think you're an @-hole, that doesn't mean you work with eight haters, or that only one person at work understands you, it means you're an @-hole!!!
Crossdressers don't get a "pass" on their societal obligations, all the same rules apply. Personality doesn't affect Character. You don't have to like everyone, but you have to respect everyone.

No. No it doesn't mean that at all. It means they have a point of view which is open to scrutiny and discussion on both sides. If you "have" to respect everyone then so do they. Which means you can't be an "@-hole" just because someone says you are. Because everyone "has to respect everyone".

Sarah...

[SherriePall]

Forget all the arguments about NORMAL.
Andrea, if you are a true CDer, hun, than you must realize that you didn't just decide to become one. I remember my first feelings so very long ago before I started school. I couldn't even spell crossdress, let alone know what it meant.
As far as lying, yes, many of us have done that through omission. We don't tell that we do. Most people don't ask if we do, so why should we tell them?
Being selfish? As others have posted here, no more than someone who goes fishing or hunting (or some other pursuit). I am sure that I haven't spent as much on clothing and make-up as someone who bought a bass boat (no offence to any of my fishing friends). I make sure that I have plenty of time for my family (and over the years I feel I neglected myself at times to ensure that).
You make reference to homosexuality. In the non-CDing community that is generally the thinking: CDing equals homosexuality. We know that it is not true. According to most studies, it is the same percentage in the CDing community as the general population.
So, in conclusion, if you feel you have been lying, being selfish, or denying your homosexuality, correct those traits.
Doing so will set you free.
The rest of us who already know who we are wish you the best.

[kellycan27]

Being "normal" notwithstanding, most of us just do the best we can with what we have to work with my friend.:)

Simply put, and nicely said.....thank you

[Nicki B]

Lying, and being selfish, isn't normal human behaviour??? :strugglin

[TGMarla]

Nice follow-up, AR. You and your 11 posts in three and a half years should just go away now. Maybe a mod will do you justice and close this stupid thread.


:troll:


(Yeah, yeah...I know I posted twice. Now I'm going to go put on a dress for a while.)

[Petrina CD]

If it was "normal" I'm quite sure that I probobly woudn't want to bother with it . The fact that it is not normal is what gives me a little thrill.

[dawnmarrie1961]

My good friend , Forest Gump, used to say,"NERMAL is as nermal DOES."

Frankly I had a little trouble understanding him some times but I often found comfort in his words of wisdom.

CDing is "NERMAL" here at www.crossdressers.com, otherwise it would be just another boring, NORMAL, forum. No fun at all! :devil:

Normal is an "oxymoron" because no two things are exactly alike no matter how similar they may appear. Differences define individuality. Similarity defines groups that share common traits. People prefer the comfort of similarities. Individuals often change uncommon traits in order to become part of the group.

Personally ,the whole thing sounds like a bunch of "cows " herding. I won't want to be a part of the stampede heading over the cliff!!

Groups often become armies. The nature of armies is to conquer ,to destroy the individual.

It's getting kinda "DRAFTY" in here.:devil:

[Alice Torn]

Normal is an oxymoron? I thought an oxymoron, was a moron, on oxygen!

[stephaniesacd]

having done much more reading on this forum than anything else, I felt I had to respond to this particular post. I have been crossdressing on and off for most of my 40 years on this planet and consider myself quite normal, mentally stable, and honest. As for selfish, as others here have responded, any hobby can be taken as selfish if it excludes others in your life. I have the great fortune to be married to a wonderful, beautiful lady that accepts both my male side and stephanie and she loves to spend time with both of us. In years past I have wondered if maybe I was abnormal or wierd however being a crossdresser is "normal" for me. What is normal for one person may not be for another. That is what makes people interesting as we are all different in one way or another. As for the thinly veiled assumption that because we are crossdressers we are gay and need to be corrected, is like saying all men that are florists are gay, or that all lady truckdrivers are lesbian. There is absolutely no way to justify such broad assumptions. You are of course entitled to your opinions just as we all are. I hope you find whatever answers you seek and I hope they help you find your own way thru life.

[JacquiUKTV]

The common idea on this forum is that crossdressing is a normal or atleast relatively normal thing. I've been thinking is it normal though, are crossdressers just liars, they lie to others, not being what they seem, and/or they lie to themselves, that what they are is normal and not a problem or that they are just a neutral gender and not possibly a homosexual. The other idea is that it's based in selfishness all about indulging themselves and not caring enough about others, looking to themselves to acheive what they want.

I'm sure that the response on this forum will be mostly that what I think is wrong and that I am talking out of my ass. However, I am becoming more steadfast in the idea that crossdressing is not a normal human behavior and one that needs to be corrected.


I think your question needs to be addressed like this: there is a difference between what might be called 'normal' in terms of anyone's personal psychological development, and what is deemed 'normal=socially-acceptable' in terms of one's relationship to the society you happening to be living in.

As regards the latter, 'normal' is largely a matter of the agreed-upon values of whatever place you're in: for example, in certain Islamic cultures it's 'normal' for women to wear the burkha, whereas in western society it's 'normal' for women to wear make-up, miniskirts and heels.

In some parts of the Islamic world female circumcision is considered 'normal'; in certain Oriental cultures it was considered 'normal' to tightly-bind the feet of young girls to inhibit growth. In what's loosely referred-to as 'Ancient Greece' it was considered 'normal' for older men to have intimate sexual relations with teenage boys...I could go on.

'Normal' in the societal sense appears to be a flexible proposition; it was only in 1967...1968...can't remember...that homosexuality was de-criminalised here in the UK in accordance with the recommendations of the 'Wolfenden Report'; more to do with expediency than altruism I think, but a step forward nonetheless.

As regards the former point, without wishing to go all 'Freudian' on you I would say that desires such as needing to cross-dress are something that emerge according to one's personal earliest experiences at an 'unconscious' or 'pre-conscious' level; this is to say (with acknowledged brevity) that the desire to cross-dress, for whatever exact reason is something that is a part of you; it's not your 'fault'...something you should feel guilty about.

I get the feeling, Andrea, that you're in conflict between what you feel is 'normal' and what your world tells you is 'normal'.

You're not the first, won't be the last; hope my humble comments are of use.

:love: Jacqui.

[LA CINDY LOVE]

On this form crossdressing is a normal behavior......because that is what we do, but to society they feel that what we do is abnormal,....try to tell someone who dose not dress that if a man wants to wear women clothing it is normal.....but like so many have said what is normal......there was a time when society call rock and roll abnormal behavior.

I feel that crossdressing is not normal or abnormal........it is a way of life and how to live it.


LA CINDY LOVE

[Deborah Jane]

The common idea on this forum is that crossdressing is a normal or atleast relatively normal thing.

Well i guess it would seem like that with this being a crossdressing forum :brolleyes:


However, I am becoming more steadfast in the idea that crossdressing is not a normal human behavior and one that needs to be corrected.

Logically very few things we do in the 21st century are normal human behaviour, we are afterall Hunter Gatherers by definition.
But since as a society we have evolved from that, many if not most most things we do now could be considered abnormal.
Is flying normal human behaviour?....By definition No, but we do it every day in machines constructed by ourselves or by humans very similar to us.
Is space travel normal human behaviour?....Slowly it is becoming that way and over time it will become a perfectly normal and everyday thing for most of us to do.

Evolution in every way is normal human behaviour, after if we hadn't evolved from what we were, we would still be running around in animal skins hunting Mammoths into extinction!!!

[Kelsy]

Normal??? Hmmm I don't recall ever seeing it! In fact I believe it is becoming even more elusive!

Kelsy

[Emily01]

The common idea on this forum is that crossdressing is a normal or at least relatively normal thing. I've been thinking is it normal though, are crossdressers just liars, they lie to others, not being what they seem, and/or they lie to themselves, that what they are is normal and not a problem or that they are just a neutral gender and not possibly a homosexual. The other idea is that it's based in selfishness all about indulging themselves and not caring enough about others, looking to themselves to acheive what they want.

I'm sure that the response on this forum will be mostly that what I think is wrong and that I am talking out of my ass. However, I am becoming more steadfast in the idea that crossdressing is not a normal human behavior and one that needs to be corrected.

you raise some interesting ideas and i imagine that the responses only begin to scratch the surface since we all live different lives. that said, has anyone ever given you feedback on delivery? lol....really no offense meant but you must have had a past-life planting land mines!


liars in that i don't wear a sign that says i'm a CD? the people who matter most and have a need to know are fully informed - am i required to broadcast the fact?

selfish and self-indulgent to some extent yes, sometimes more so and other times less so. most things seem to seek equilibrium and i do too, don't you? i won't deny that there is a sexual element to my crossdressing, but that hasn't always been the case, and more importantly it isn't the only or primary driver. (perhaps it's only a sexual fetish for some but that hasn't been my experience.) meanwhile ~ back at the ranch ~ i know stand-up guys who fish and well-balanced women who like to read who exhibit far more selfishness than i ever have around crossdressing.

normal ~ lol, hope not! well, i am running around 98.6 at the moment so in that regard i am normal. i have no desire to be terminally unique but neither do i aspire to a monochromatic life and personality. i will give you this much - being a crossdresser is as much burden as it is gift and perhaps more the former. it's not easily understood by others, if at all. and while it offers me a manifestation for a portion of my personality i can't deny that at some level there is a sexuality component so it's really hard to imagine a way to incorporate it into my daily family life, and besides it's damn expensive to boot!

corrected ~ that's where i lost you. geez, you think i'd pick this at the end of the line where god hands out the gifts? couldn't i have just been stuck with a gift for ballet and call it quits? i am how and what i am, i don't know how i came to be this way, i wasn't even fully conscious of my separateness as a person the first time it struck a chord with me at 7 years of age. i didn't find or even connect any sexual gratification to it until i had been at it for 13 years.....what then do i correct - my essence? will a lobotomy do the trick or do you suggest i simply "off" myself and be done with it?


one last note: in the many intervening years since that fateful day when i was seven, i have come to really enjoy and appreciate the fractured genders that lie within. perhaps in the distant future someone like me can live their life unimpeded by societal demands that everyone fit into a narrow proscribed box. i hope that person is able to be and become all that they care to be without harming others and still attending to their obligations to loved-ones and their society. i believe that vision is more compassionate and loving than your "corrective" view. so i'll just hang on to that one thanks.

[battybattybats]

back to my referance earlier of a lurker... ie read "spy"

Hmm....

I used to be a mod on a large War Of The Worlds website. One year 3 different new films and one musical stage production were all announced based on that book. Not only did our traffic explode but we got a heap of 'sock-puppets', people from each of the films/stageshow drumming up bussiness for themselves and heaping criticism on their competitiors.

The motive was pretty clear for them..

But what for this person if they are a spy? What kind of spy? A Transhobe? A member of a hate-organisation? An unaccepting GG?

And what would motivate this thread? What would a spy imagine would be gained from it?

[TSchapes]

I'm all three:

Normal, everyday crossdresser, who takes care of his family and loves his friends and family.

Liar, in that I lied to number of people that I was not a crossdresser, pushed upon me by the dictates of society. I don't do this anymore.

Selfish, in that I care about myself. If I don't care about myself, all others will suffer. Therefore I crossdress, which makes me happy.

These are personal choices. If people wish to continue to hate themselves, and believe they can be "corrected" by all means continue on this path. The only thing I ask of people here, is if you do find a way to do this, please come back here and tell us how you did it, and how long it lasted. I have yet to see anyone come back and tell us. "I'm Cured!" :2c:

We all make personal choices...

-Tracy

[mklinden2010]

Well, you are entitled to your current opinion, and I hope your doubts and questions lead you to a happier place. You are free to think whatever you like, so long as you make an honest effort to find "your" truths amid all the noise in life.

Crossdressing, it seems to me, is a normal human behavior. Lots of people do it; many even enjoy it as part of their entire life experience. The same cannot be so surely said of dolphins, houseflies, and, brown bears... Of course, non-humans don't "normally" wear clothes, but many of them do engage in homosexual behavior. Spend a few years on the farm, or, out on the range, and you'll see some stuff that makes you wonder about nature being "all" natural. It is... You see it right in front of you. But, it isn't... Because some of it seems weird and unlikely. (Especially if you're a Disney fan...)

People do all sorts of things. The less common things are thought of as "abnormal" and the more common things are thought of as "normal." Generally, our thinking about normal and abnormal goes no further than "normal, or, common = good" and "abnormal, or, uncommon = bad." But, as Shakespeare noted, "Nothing is good or bad but thinking makes it so..."

So, fine for you to make up your mind about all this this week, and, fine for you to change your mind entirely next week. Understand that this is your point of view, however, and that you point of view really controls and/ or determines very little. It may rain today... And, that may be good if your crop needs it - and bad if your house painter doesn't. Whatever you think, however, it's still going to rain. Get used to it.

So, OK to study the problem... Just keep changing your mind until your conclusions work for everyone. You may decide to "live and let live" as a general rule for yourself and others.

I hope so.

[Carly D.]

I feel like I am normal dressing up.. I don't try to force myself on anyone nor tell anyone you just gotta try wearing womens clothing..

Liar; that too I guess because a few years ago my mom asked my brother and me if we knew how it felt to wear pantyhose and my brother said no and I shrugged.. not yes not no just shrugged.. if she would have asked again I know I would have lied and said no but might on the off chance said yes..

Selfish; this I feel I would be selfish if I told my family for the reason of wanting to wear out here at the house or just be out altogether.. and don't think I haven't thought about that idea..