Girl Talk

[Persephone]

Some are curious about what goes on in "girl spaces," places like salons, day spas, etc.

Well, I had an eyebrow shaping apointment today. I'm a frequent visitor to the salon. so I guess I'm "one of the girls."

My aesthetician has recently become engaged and we've been talking for months about every detail of her wedding dress, her wedding plans, etc.

When I arrived today, another aesthetician had just gotten engaged (last night!). She was totally radiant, and everyone, me included, had to see and admire her ring.

Naturally, the two of them were comparing their rings and discussed every detail, the weight, the cut, the quality, if there were inclusions, if the jeweler had shown them the stone under a microscope. (I guess the equivalent might be the detail of two very mechanically inclined guys discussing a new carbouretor on a muscle car).

She left and my aesthetician's hair stylist came by to ask about her new color. They discussed it for a while and, when she left, my aesthetician, in conspiratorial girl whisper, told me that she really didn't care for her new color, that she felt it was too dark.

I told her I thought it brought out the color of her eyes, so she looked in the mirror for a while to see if she agreed.

Then another woman arrived and started admiring my ae's sandals along with my own (5" heel wedges showing off my brightly painted toes). Naturally we had to comment on her own sandals as well as each tell her where we got ours (feminine protocol requirement).

That led to a discussion of toenail length preference (I like mine a bit shorter than the two of them seemed to).

That's it in a nutshell, what went on in a typical 1/2 hour in "girl space."

[sometimes_miss]

Working predominantly with women, I'm privy to a lot of 'female' discussion, and most of it puts me to sleep. Mostly centers around their families, often husband and kids, friends and/or boyfriend relationships, decorating their houses, occasionally clothes, but not very often beauty discussion. Basically, I'd rather listen to the radio. Woman conversation is way different from guy conversation, and often leads absolutely nowhere....which is how they seem to like it. They'll discuss the same thing over and over and over and over and over. So, any of you who think that you are really a woman in a man's body, try out spending a few afternoons listening to women's conversations without ever saying anything yourself, and see if you can remain interested. I couldn't.

[Kathi Lake]

Lexi, you may find it boring, but I love it!

I'm glad it goes nowhere. I'm glad it rambles. That's kind of the point. Sometimes, it is just talking for talking's sake. It's a time of bonding, a time of sharing, a time of gossip, a time of backstabbing. To me, it really helps me build relationships with the other girls.

Maybe it's the way I'm wired, but guy conversations, like guy problem-solving, can seem a bit linear to me. They present a problem/issue/topic, annnnnnd . . . go! They're off! Faster than you realize, they've arrived at a solution and the conversation is done. I feel like I have had a case of conversationus interruptus. :)

Again, sometimes the purpose of girl talk is just that - girl talk. When women let me into their lives in conversations like this, I revel in it! I get to really know her on a deeper level - family, kids, friends, enemies, preferences, makeup and more. Whatever the topic, I'm there for them and they for me.

Does that make sense?

Kathi

[Persephone]

Lexi, you may find it boring, but I love it!

I'm glad it goes nowhere. I'm glad it rambles. That's kind of the point. Sometimes, it is just talking for talking's sake. It's a time of bonding, a time of sharing, a time of gossip, a time of backstabbing. To me, it really helps me build relationships with the other girls.

Maybe it's the way I'm wired, but guy conversations, like guy problem-solving, can seem a bit linear to me. They present a problem/issue/topic, annnnnnd . . . go! They're off! Faster than you realize, they've arrived at a solution and the conversation is done. I feel like I have had a case of conversationus interruptus. :)

Again, sometimes the purpose of girl talk is just that - girl talk. When women let me into their lives in conversations like this, I revel in it! I get to really know her on a deeper level - family, kids, friends, enemies, preferences, makeup and more. Whatever the topic, I'm there for them and they for me.

Does that make sense?

Kathi
:yt::iagree:You described it perfectly! Makes sense to me! I love those conversations and the bonding!

[Teri Jean]

I think I am in agreement with Kathi on this one. Guys don't talk to just talk, it has to first identify, then assess, then attack, and lastly solve or complete. Two minutes tops. No wonder they spend the whole day watching footbal or basketball, don't get me wrong but mindless chatter and gossip can give you insite and things to talk about the next day. The sports stats will be in the morning newspaper. The gossip will not, did you hear "Suzi is going in to have her brows waxed and nails done?" I wonder what her wife will say?

Keli

[MissConstrued]

Naturally, the two of them were comparing their rings and discussed every detail, the weight, the cut, the quality, if there were inclusions, if the jeweler had shown them the stone under a microscope.

But women aren't materialistic, are they? :brolleyes:

At least a carburetor is useful, and doesn't even cause massacres in Africa. :)

[Kathi Lake]

But women aren't materialistic, are they? :brolleyes:

At least a carburetor is useful, and doesn't even cause massacres in Africa. :)Hey, Madonna opened the floodgates for being Material Girls and made it OK. You know it never happened before that! :)

Somehow I know that if you posted, that it would be about carburetors or some other "guy" topic, MC. :)

Kathi

[KatieC]

Maybe it's the way I'm wired, but guy conversations, like guy problem-solving, can seem a bit linear to me. They present a problem/issue/topic, annnnnnd . . . go! They're off! Faster than you realize, they've arrived at a solution and the conversation is done. I feel like I have had a case of conversationus interruptus. :)

Not only that, but if you're just talking to vent or to think out-loud about a problem, guys tend to jump right to "oh, you want me to fix your problem, this is what you should do ..."

No wonder ladies often get so frustrated trying to talk to the males in their lives. They just want to share, and the guys are trying to fix things that don't need fixing!

[stephaniedoes]

hmmm all good points this time. i myself am not a sports fan. but do enjoy fixing my cars. BUT if im not working on it i dont wanna talk about it and i dont want help... i find that when im around male conversation i tend to dream alot and just shake my head as if interested but am not at all.. but then they ask so what do u think and im lost do to the universe in my head, oh ooo, then make my way to a safe spot back in the conversation.. i love girl talk, it doesnt need a resolution, just maybe some insight if your not dreaming as i have terrible selective hearing and if i dont wanna talk to just say sorry i was somewhere else, they completly understand and dont care if i heard or not. where a man might get pissy towards me and stop talking all together. anyway i to enjoy pointless conversation and being a male i get to think of it in 2 ways which is a gift...:straightface:

[vivianann]

I love being in a room full of women and being accepted as one of the girls while they are having girl talk, it is fun, and it helps me to understand women alot better.

[Lisa Catherine]

There IS a difference, picture this: two guys seeing each other, "hey, bud, what's goin' on?" "Not a lot, how 'bout you?" unless, of course, one of them "went mudding", caught a big fish, or shot a trophy buck recently.
Two girls: HI! OMIGAWD, look at your hair and nails,....." OH, look at YOUR oufit, where'd you get those shoes, oh, I heard the other day....." just like that, they see and analyze each other's outfits, hair, nails, makeup, and all, and swap more words in a few minutes than most guys do in a week of football playoffs! I think the analogy in the comic strip "Zits" is correct, in communication, men are dialup, and women are high-speed broadband!!:hugs::2c:

[Jessica Who]

I have a friend who is fascinated by women having typical conversations. He is married and not a CD, but just finds in interesting from a sociological point of view.

My first time out I found myself complimenting my friends' dresses and asking them where they got them! :)

[MissConstrued]

Somehow I know that if you posted, that it would be about carburetors or some other "guy" topic, MC. :)




You say that like it's a bad thing.... Need I remind you that I am, in fact, a guy? Hang on, let me check for sure... twig, check... berries, check... yup! I like to dress like the proverbial "girly girl" on occasion, but it doesn't go to my head.

Come to think of it, my lady friends are pretty tomboyish. I think I like them because they don't prat on incessantly about nothing. I went for pedicures with one of them once... we talked about cars. The one I shop with likes to talk about politics & guns. :)

[Kathi Lake]

You say that like it's a bad thing.... Need I remind you that I am, in fact, a guy? Hang on, let me check for sure... twig, check... berries, check... yup! I like to dress like the proverbial "girly girl" on occasion, but it doesn't go to my head.

Come to think of it, my lady friends are pretty tomboyish. I think I like them because they don't prat on incessantly about nothing. I went for pedicures with one of them once... we talked about cars. The one I shop with likes to talk about politics & guns. :)Nah. Not a bad thing. I was just yanking your, . . . twig. Didn't you notice the smiley?

Kathi

[MissConstrued]

Nah. Not a bad thing. I was just yanking your, . . . twig. Didn't you notice the smiley?

Kathi


Ya never know around here... a forum full of males where men aren't welcome it seems....

[VeronicaMoonlit]

You say that like it's a bad thing.... Need I remind you that I am, in fact, a guy?

EEEEK! A man! Shoo, shoo, back to the living room to watch your game, or we'll infect you with girl cooties. :-)



I like to dress like the proverbial "girly girl" on occasion, but it doesn't go to my head.

I think "doesn't go to my head" is bad phrasing. You've often implied that you think those with transgender identities are delusional in certain ways. Though I must admit, I'm not entirely certain of your intent at times.



Come to think of it, my lady friends are pretty tomboyish. I think I like them because they don't prat on incessantly about nothing.

One person's nothing is another person's something.


Ya never know around here... a forum full of males where men aren't welcome it seems....

While there are born male people here, some of us aren't exactly "male" on the spiritual/mental/philosophical level. In fact, it might help to think of some of us as women, and I'm not just talking about the acknowledged TS's, I'd count some of the self-identified CD's as women too or as I sometimes say "proto-TS's".

You've probably figured out that I don't exactly identify as male, though I don't identify as a woman yet because I don't feel like I've earned it...yet.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

[Gina_C]

May be this is relevant or a different threat topic. I am surprised about the converstions I here when I visit GG restrooms - seldom is there anyone there for relief, its all talking with other GGs about the man of the moment and the future prospects. Guys seldom do this, to them it's a personal thing. Viva la difference and more encrichment to us that can experience both sides of the coin.

[Mirani]

I can't put it better than this :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P77JnDHUw6g

More scientific:
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=20268715

[Kathi Lake]

Nice videos - and very true!

Kathi

[suchacutie]

Whether we like it or not, the conversations of men with men vs. women with women are different. There are many of us here who wish to be able to interact in both genders. This conversational issue is a MAJOR issue about fitting in to the female scene. When we open our mouths as men, even if we are dressed as women, the words that come out signal which gender we belong to. They are signals that are as strong, or stronger than the clothes we wear and the makeup we use.

We may not like the chatter of one particular gender, but to be a part of that gender we need to know about it and make it a part of our discussion here. Thank you so much for this thread!!!

tina

[MissConstrued]

though I don't identify as a woman yet because I don't feel like I've earned it...yet.



Is that like a merit badge? Or just like doing a certain amount of community service to earn your uterus? Collect Betty Crocker box tops and send off for your free second X chromosome? Hey, maybe we can end racism too if we just let the black people earn their own white skin.

And yet you wonder where I get the idea anyone's delusional?

It's not that I have anything against imagination, wish, or fantasy. But I see enough of it passed off as reality on this forum to make Alice's Wonderland journey look like standing in line at the post office.

That said, I do realize there are men who are less masculine than 99% of women. I have run across many males without male brains. But that doesn't make them women. Maybe we need a new term to describe these two-spirited people (hey, that's a good one right there!). Maybe "female man" and "male woman." I dunno. But since English is the language we have all agreed to speak, and in our language we have already decided long ago what "woman" and "man" mean, can we just use it? Our language is confusing enough with adding yet more meanings to words we already have.

[ReineD]

No wonder ladies often get so frustrated trying to talk to the males in their lives. They just want to share, and the guys are trying to fix things that don't need fixing!

So very true!! Many times the problem is already resolved. We know what we're going to do about it and we know it will work out in good time. Maybe we just want to cry! We need an escape hatch for our emotions and we need to know that we are not alone. But, other times we do want to check out our feelings or our reasoning, to see if there might perhaps be another way of looking at it. A different solution.



Two girls: HI! OMIGAWD, look at your hair and nails,....." OH, look at YOUR oufit, where'd you get those shoes, oh, I heard the other day....." just like that, they see and analyze each other's outfits, hair, nails, makeup, and all, and swap more words in a few minutes than most guys do in a week of football playoffs!

Um .. maybe teenagers talk like this. I honestly don't know any adult women that have conversations like this. If I notice a friend has a new purse, or haircut, or if I admire her earrings or outfit, I will say so. She will thank me and we will move on. Thirty seconds, tops.

What do I talk about with my GG friends? Issues that cause a bump in our lives. Most have to do with relationships ... with husbands, kids, parents, siblings, co-workers, everyone. When we've talked it out and we're all satisfied that everything will be OK, then the talk moves onto to what we are involved with lately. What paper are you publishing? What kind of clients are you seeing in your new job? How's the legal aspect of your divorce going? What degree are you pursuing now? What's your thesis on? And then from there. We learn from each other.

Then, the topic can move on to current events, politics, the economy, what to do about retirement. Or resources: I have to fix this, do you know how to go about it? Where to you think I can get a great deal on such and such? I'll come over next weekend and help you paint, move, whatever.


Whether we like it or not, the conversations of men with men vs. women with women are different. There are many of us here who wish to be able to interact in both genders. This conversational issue is a MAJOR issue about fitting in to the female scene. When we open our mouths as men, even if we are dressed as women, the words that come out signal which gender we belong to. They are signals that are as strong, or stronger than the clothes we wear and the makeup we use.


I have three sons. We've had hundreds of all guy sleepovers over the years. They've played video games, set up LANs, watched movies, acted silly when they were little, etc, but when they had issues in their lives, they talked about it. My sons talked to their friends a great deal when my ex & I decided to divorce. They had great support groups of friends. Now,when my college aged son comes home and meets up with his buddies who go elsewhere, they stay up all night and talk about their lives, politics, philosophy, girls, their parents, girls, their friends at school, what they've read lately, girls, the economy, sex, what they might do next summer, and the list goes on.

With my SO, brother, father, and other men in my life, I talk about their level of happiness, what issues they are having lately with relationships, current events, how things work (with my SO), history, politics, art, maybe a bit of gossip. And with my SO, whether in guy or girl mode, we can talk fashion, makeup, mostly I ask for advice. But this takes up a very small part of our conversation.



You've probably figured out that I don't exactly identify as male, though I don't identify as a woman yet because I don't feel like I've earned it...yet.

What do you mean by not earning it? If you are TS and identify as female, doesn't that mean you are a female? :)



It's not that I have anything against imagination, wish, or fantasy. But I see enough of it passed off as reality on this forum to make Alice's Wonderland journey look like standing in line at the post office.

That said, I do realize there are men who are less masculine than 99% of women. I have run across many males without male brains. But that doesn't make them women. Maybe we need a new term to describe these two-spirited people (hey, that's a good one right there!). Maybe "female man" and "male woman." I dunno. But since English is the language we have all agreed to speak, and in our language we have already decided long ago what "woman" and "man" mean, can we just use it? Our language is confusing enough with adding yet more meanings to words we already have.

Being transgendered is beginning to come out of the closet now like no other time in our recent history. The internet helped a great deal with this, also gay rights in the last 30 years. The entire spectrum of gender identification between the two binary genders is just starting to get talked about. We do a lot of that here. The terms are constantly evolving.

Hopefully more sexologists, psychologists, gender experts will be able to conduct more meaningful research now that TGs are coming out. And hopefully the media will begin to treat being TG sensitively in movies, sit-coms, etc. It wouldn't surprise me if, within the next generation or so, we have a new understanding for gender that is not strictly male or female.

EDIT

One last thought for those of you who say that if guys go beyond talking about sports or motors, then it is "identify, assess, attack, solve or complete". Nowhere do you say that guys talk about their feelings, aesthetics, etc.

I propose that mainstream guys DO talk about these things. But, as CDers since your tender years, perhaps you've always wanted to keep a sharp divide inwardly between what you felt was expected from you as guys, and the idea that anything softer is experienced by women alone? So maybe you haven't allowed yourselves to express the gentler side for fear that others would guess about the CDing? You've probably attempted to be even more macho than the typical guy?

I don't want to offend anyone. This is just an observation and a question based on what I've learned in this forum, which is that as CDers, you do build a very tough shell around yourselves in order to keep the rest of the world at bay, and also you often end up with very macho type careers.

:hugs:

[vivianann]

I agree with your obsevations 100% ReineD, I use to try to overcompensate my masculinity, I am finally passed that stage in my life. I use to secretly want to express my fem side, now I do and am much happier now.

[Kathi Lake]

Reine,

. . . and my respect for you grows yet again.

Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply. I agree, men do talk about relationships, but on what seems to me to be such a superficial level and centered on actions rather than feelings.

On the "girl talk," comment above, having a conversation with someone who spoke of nothing more than hair, clothes and makeup would not be a conversation I would want to have either as that is just as superficial. In my experience, they do start out that way though, i.e. "Hi Jen, I love your shoes!" "Thanks Kathi, I got them at Nordstroms. They're XXX brand. Where did you get that . . ." It's almost a verbal hug, in a way. After that, the conversation usually turns to our kids, spouses, job, church, journal articles, etc. For the most part, guy conversations are pretty similar (except for the mutual clothing appreciation bit), in that the same subjects are discussed. The difference I find is not in the width of the subjects covered, but the depth.

Like you, I have a few teenage boys and have had numerous sleepovers (why they call it that when there is never any sleep, who knows)/LAN parties/eat-everything-in-the-house parties. Their topics have been similar, though geared a bit younger (my oldest is 17 and has only been in college one year) - the latest PlayStation games, Paintball, girls, etc. So far, my oldest has stayed away from serious relationships with the opposite sex. I don't believe he dated the same girl twice (although as parents, we thought one was a keeper - student body president, valedictorian and stunningly gorgeous. Sigh). Listening in to their chats (while blowing them away in Halo), I see the same as with my conversations with guys - a lack of depth. I'm sure it will come with age and maturity.

As for being blusteringly male in my conversations with other guys to hide my true nature - you may have me there. It is always in the back of my mind. What I want to do is comfort them when they're hurt, but instead I give them a slap on the back and a "Dude, You'll be fine" instead. I want to know what they're feeling about a situation, but help them "solve" it instead. All so they won't see beyond my - admittedly very thin - manly façade.

Something to think about.

Kathi

[ReineD]

What I want to do is comfort them when they're hurt, but instead I give them a slap on the back and a "Dude, You'll be fine" instead.

Ahhh, the comforting. Yes, there is a difference there. Most women, even in arms-length relationships, do comfort one another readily with hugs. Still, it is deeper and more meaningful if the relationship is close. Men tend to do so only in very intimate (best friend) relationships. And it may not be with a hug, but there will be a mutual understanding that is just as deep. But, men will comfort women quite readily with a hug.

[Anna the Dub]

And yet you wonder where I get the idea anyone's delusional?

It's not that I have anything against imagination, wish, or fantasy. But I see enough of it passed off as reality on this forum to make Alice's Wonderland journey look like standing in line at the post office.

That said, I do realize there are men who are less masculine than 99% of women. I have run across many males without male brains. But that doesn't make them women. Maybe we need a new term to describe these two-spirited people (hey, that's a good one right there!). Maybe "female man" and "male woman." I dunno. But since English is the language we have all agreed to speak, and in our language we have already decided long ago what "woman" and "man" mean, can we just use it? Our language is confusing enough with adding yet more meanings to words we already have.

I am TS, have had an orchidectomy, am undergoing hormone treatment and do not, in any way, identify with the male gender. Are you saying I am delusional?