Chivalry

[Joanne f]

I don`t know why but as i was walking though town this morning it accrued to me that the one thing i do instinctively and i do not seam to be able to brake the habit is, always walk on the out side of a female, step off the path if i have to and open doors and all those other little things.
I know it is 2009 and in most case`s chivalry has gone but i was just wondering how you guys deal with it , in fact do you young lads of today even think about it .
Just showing my age now and maybe it is time to put my armour away keeping the chain mail skirt though,:lol2:

[Nicki B]

It's my experience that a lot of chivalry is exhibited in this forum..

xx

[John]

I do it, but I do it for men and women regardless (what's the point in only doing it for the ladies when it's the men you're trying to seduce ;) ). I don't think of it as chivalry, I was taught to do it growing up anyhow, it's just being polight.

[deja true]

One of the main constituents of the definiton of chivalry is the idea of "courtly love"... the absolute devotion to one's own chosen lady and to all women in general. And as Nicki B says, there certainly is a lot of it here.

We defend our women, born female, trans, and faux as dearly as we would defend our children, whether we know them or not. (I almost hesitate to add that we also do the same for our trans-guys here. But I don't see that as a bad thing, it's a sign of respect for their courage and determination. )

The inculcated mannerisms, that we grew up with (for us older...er...more mature types) like door holding and curbside walking and moderation of language (Hey! there are ladies present!) and polite behaviour are seemingly the last remnants of that ancient code. But they too are being weaned out of our modern Western cultures, the culture of politically "forced" equality between men and women.

I automatically hold doors for women, can't help it, despite the withering glances I sometimes get from the younger crowd. Ah well! I'll never stop it. For the deed done out of respect benefits the doer, as much as the recipient.

(I was taken aback many times at the Be-All conference when in a group of folks, the door was often held for me by born men, trans-men and even girls. It was a small passing event that always made me smile inside. And I was reminded that the chivalric code also carries requirements for the ladies ... to accept and acknowledge graciously the courtly and well-meaning deeds of others!)

Hoping that the gentlemanly practices do not die out too soon! :)

Nice thread idea, joanne!

[SirTrey]

I know that I am very much a gentleman....I always open doors, car doors, do the lifting and carrying, etc. for ladies....To Me, that's just what a man is supposed to do....I don't even think about it....I just do it.

Not a fan of the term "ex women", though....I assume you are referring to the transguys on the board (and, if not, please correct Me on that)....Being trans means being born in the wrong body....That means we were never ladies....Few things in life are more hurtful to a transsexual person than to be referred to in ways like that....I appreciate that you applaud our courage, etc., but "ex women"? Ouch. We go through the hardships of transitioning (which, for Me includes losing My whole family) because we are NOT women, we are men....People on this board, of ALL places, should know that....Listen, I know you didn't mean to be offensive when you said that....I really didn't get that sense from that post....but, really, we don't WANT those kinds of considerations because we happen to have been born with what basically amounts to a "birth defect", as science is now proving....I can really only speak for Me, but in MY case, that's like a person who used to have a large tumor on their face being referred to as "ex ugly"....Not trying to start a huge debate on that...Just trying to let you know that being trans is hard enough without hearing things like that.

[deja true]

Trey...I do heartily apologize for using the term....

You read correctly that it was not my intention at all to insult or demean. It was only to emphasize a connection among all of us, a connection closer than even between cis-gendered men and women, actually.

(You'd think that English, a language with more words than almost any other, would be an easy language to communicate in. But it sure isn't, is it?)

[SirTrey]

Trey...I do heartily apologize for using the term....

You read correctly that it was not my intention at all to insult or demean. It was only to emphasize a connection among all of us, a connection closer than even between cis-gendered men and women, actually.

(You'd think that English, a language with more words than almost any other, would be an easy language to communicate in. But it sure isn't, is it?)

Apology accepted....I DID know you meant no offense...that's why I didn't get angry....Hey, the trans world is a minefield sometimes....it's a tough life at every level....and we are all sensitive to some things....and, the more we know about each other and the things that can and do hurt us....the better we can be at supporting each other as a community....:hugs:

[Thornton]

Having just graduated from high school, I would say that chivalry is pretty much out. Guys don't hold the doors for girls, girls get their own car door, the lifting is pretty much done equally, unless the package is obviously just way too heavy for the female. Language goes unchanged when a lady's present, though, I've learned that subject matter is very different, once my friends started treating me as male in conversations than female. But, yeah, chivalry is fast dying. I guess it's good for women, if it makes them feel more empowered or something, but I'm kind of upset by it. When I was 5, I wanted to grow up to be a Gentleman, but being that has seemed to go out of style(not that I care), and is kind of hard to pull off, because girls just don't expect special treatment anymore...:sad:

[ZenFrost]

I find in life that chivalry is essentially dead, with a few exceptions. Looking at the historical origins of courtly love however (and marriage practices of the time) the whole thing is actually really bizarre so I don't bother with it in my life.

I hold open doors for anyone and don't treat women differently than men.

[Ze]

I'm all about equal treatment, but I find myself very much a gentleman. Why? Besides it simply being polite, it gets you to stand out in the crowd in a positive way.

Because, unfortunately, chivalry is indeed dead. Thorton pretty much said it; I'm in college right now and an act of chivalry/kindness could knock me over with a feather.

But it may also be more commonly a lack of manners. Americans...and we give the French a hard time? Come on.

[Poltergeist]

I'll hold the door for anyone, male or female.

[Joanne f]

I can see that chivalry is not dead yet (well at least with you young lads ) maybe you are all just a cut above the rest in this world .
Thank you for the replies.

[ZenFrost]

I can see that chivalry is not dead yet (well at least with you young lads ).

I find it odd that you say that when half of us just said that chivalry was indeed dead, or something similar. :raisedeyebrow:

[Nicki B]

Surely chivalry is about respect - something which FTMs are much better at giving than MTFs, IME.. :sad:

As Trey can no doubt testify...:devil:

[Aubrey Green]

I do all, also. It is just being polite. I always give people the benefit of the doubt. Chivalry is not dead, just hard to find. Not much of the younger generation (22 and younger) are familiar with the concept. I did NOT say all, just much, so don't jump on me younger people. :daydreaming:

[Victoria Anne]

I go the full gambit , I was raised that way, you just do for women period. I do ,I must say love it when itis I on the recieving end.

[Seamus_Jameson]

Ah, this topic touched a nerve. Chivalry. Yes, indeed, I feel that it is being thrown by the wayside. Frankly, this makes me so angry that I literally see red. That there is an entire generation of young ladies being raised on the idea that they are supposed to lift their own luggage, hold their own doors, and pay their own way is inexcusable. The message is clearly conflicted: if you act like a woman, you are weak, i.e., there is no honor in womanhood--on the other hand, if you act like a man, you are a strong woman, an asset to your gender.

Could the message be made any clearer? Woman are trash! If you want to be a "REAL" woman, you had better forget about being vulnerable, soft, gentle, sweet, submissive, etc. And this attitude robs young girls of their womanhood. They are not being taught how to be strong, successful woman. Despite what some feminists might want to believe, there are real differences between men and woman. These girls will never be better at "acting the man" than men. They are doomed to a game in which they will always come out the losers.

The problem, IMHO, is that young woman aren't being taught how to use their own power--the unique power women hold over men--to achieve their ends. Instead of being taught to demand the respect their sex deserves, they are taught to revile it.

Sadly, the lack of chivalry doesn't diminish the desire for it. Woman who disdain appearing "weak" still want to be respected and cherished by men. I am afraid we (the young 'uns) are part of a generation of woman, emotionally unfulfilled, with no idea how to get their womanly needs met (and secretly ashamed of them, to boot).

Eh, yeah. . . back to the question. I concur with Trey. The way a man treats a woman is part of what makes him a man. I was raised in the Southern United States and I'm Christian. I'm no saint, but I truly believe that woman are a gift from God and that I'll be giving an account for my treatment of them come judgment day.

[Joanne f]

I find it odd that you say that when half of us just said that chivalry was indeed dead, or something similar. :raisedeyebrow:
Hey stop flexing you muscles :) i just like to point out the good things :)

[metalguy639]

I always walk on the outside, open doors and what have you. I was actually primarily raised as a boy by both of my parents and it was always something that my father did and something that I always do. It wasn't something I have to think about, its pretty much habit adn always has been. When I was presenting as female it really did confuse quite a few though. Now no one is confused anymore! LOL go figure!

[TxKimberly]

LOL My wife has not opened her own car door in my presence in at least 15 years. It is such a small thing to do for the woman that saved my life, brought love into my world, and gave me three children. Chivalry is NOT dead, I don't give a damn if it's 2009 or not

[Ze]

Ah, this topic touched a nerve. Chivalry. Yes, indeed, I feel that it is being thrown by the wayside. Frankly, this makes me so angry that I literally see red. That there is an entire generation of young ladies being raised on the idea that they are supposed to lift their own luggage, hold their own doors, and pay their own way is inexcusable. The message is clearly conflicted: if you act like a woman, you are weak, i.e., there is no honor in womanhood--on the other hand, if you act like a man, you are a strong woman, an asset to your gender.

Could the message be made any clearer? Woman are trash! If you want to be a "REAL" woman, you had better forget about being vulnerable, soft, gentle, sweet, submissive, etc. And this attitude robs young girls of their womanhood. They are not being taught how to be strong, successful woman. Despite what some feminists might want to believe, there are real differences between men and woman. These girls will never be better at "acting the man" than men. They are doomed to a game in which they will always come out the losers.

The problem, IMHO, is that young woman aren't being taught how to use their own power--the unique power women hold over men--to achieve their ends. Instead of being taught to demand the respect their sex deserves, they are taught to revile it.

Sadly, the lack of chivalry doesn't diminish the desire for it. Woman who disdain appearing "weak" still want to be respected and cherished by men. I am afraid we (the young 'uns) are part of a generation of woman, emotionally unfulfilled, with no idea how to get their womanly needs met (and secretly ashamed of them, to boot).

Eh, yeah. . . back to the question. I concur with Trey. The way a man treats a woman is part of what makes him a man. I was raised in the Southern United States and I'm Christian. I'm no saint, but I truly believe that woman are a gift from God and that I'll be giving an account for my treatment of them come judgment day.

I agree with you in the problem of "women acting like men" in order to "be treated equally." It just sort of perpetuates the stereotypes, yet makes women work harder.

However, people like myself (even when I'm in female mode), try to pay their share, etc, simply out of respect. I never "expect" a man to hold a door open for me (I think some women do, though, which makes them just plain rude), so I just do it myself unless I see him make a move, in which case I back off and allow/appreciate it. And I never go on a date without assuming I have enough money for at least myself, in not him as well. (You never know.)

I guess the key is for women not to expect it, but men should do it anyway. An odd balance, I know.

And contradicting what I've just said, I guess we can't force actions on anybody else in any way because it can easily go sour. *shrugs*

[TxKimberly]

. . . I never "expect" a man to hold a door open for me (I think some women do, though, which makes them just plain rude. . .


I don't know that I'd agree with that one. I don't think there is anything rude in a woman expecting or anticipating a man may hold the door for her. What is rude (and happens fairly regularly for me) is that when I do open the door for women I don't know, and they just walk through offering no thanks, no smile, and no acknowledgment for the respect I have just shown her. In those cases, I'd be happy to let the door strike her in the butt.

[Ze]

I don't know that I'd agree with that one. I don't think there is anything rude in a woman expecting or anticipating a man may hold the door for her. What is rude (and happens fairly regularly for me) is that when I do open the door for women I don't know, and they just walk through offering no thanks, no smile, and no acknowledgment for the respect I have just shown her. In those cases, I'd be happy to let the door strike her in the butt.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I guess there's a fine line between demanding (deserved) respect and narcissism. I just find it polite to not expect it.

[ZenFrost]

Hey stop flexing you muscles

What? :confused:

[onerous]

I hate, dislike, detest chivalry. It doesn't require a lot of strength to open a door, or to press the "open" button in the elevator. I don't do it for females (except heavy lifting where it's justified - but then they think I'm also a fellow female so they refuse to let me carry anything), nor do I expect any other guy to do it for any other girl.

Guys see me as female, so they do these kind of things. They can be sitting metres ahead of me on the bus, but when getting down, will wait, standing by their seat, looking at me kindly, smiling, gesturing etc. for me to pass first even though they could have gotten past and down the bus wayyyyy before I even reached halfway to where they sit. If we were going to cross paths if we try to exit at the same time, this would be understandable. But when there is just such a huge distance? It just isn't logical and serves no "helping" purpose apart from getting the girl to smile at them or to make them feel more like a man. Usually in this kind of situations I give them a blank stare, then motion for them to get down first. They then give me a weird look. Sometimes they just absolutely refuse to budge even after i've told them to get down. I then just think "fine with me if you dont want to get down" and stomp past them without looking. Since they seem to be getting their satisfaction by having a female smile at them and be grateful to them. For what if it just delays me. Harsh I know but it just pisses me off. I'm sure the other FTMs dislike having chivalry done TO them just as much.

I'm also of the younger generation and the guys still behave chivalrously on occasion, though less than the older guys.

No way am I going to acknowledge anything, much less thank them. I've resorted to pressing my back tightly against the very back of the elevator/bus/whatever so everyone else would get down first, and always walking at the very very back of a pack of friends, so I can avoid such an annoying situation. Even STILL they insist sometimes.
..of course having a male mind I just hate hate hate being condescended to or having something done for me. Maybe the GGs would think differently. I don't know.

[deja true]

"...I'm also of the younger generation and the guys still behave chivalrously on occasion, though less than the older guys.

No way am I going to acknowledge anything, much less thank them."

Gee! This makes me kinda sad, Bruce.

I think you maybe misread the intentions of the acts of politeness.

If, as you say, you know that you're being read as a female, then you have to kinda expect that men will defer to you occassionally. There is absolutely no intention to demean or embarrass you. It's just the way men are, almost an instinctive thing, a cultural effect of having been raised correctly.

Do you really think that there should be a war between the sexes (you know ... genders), and you are a fifth columninst, like it says in your signature line?

:strugglin:

[Thornton]

I'm sure the other FTMs dislike having chivalry done TO them just as much.


..of course having a male mind I just hate hate hate being condescended to or having something done for me. Maybe the GGs would think differently. I don't know.

I really think this is it, having a male mind. It reminds me of the time a male friend of mine held a classroom door open for me. I looked at him like he was crazy, but he just smiled and said, "Ladies First."...Now, I've been going to school with this kid since 4th grade. He was just being instinctively polite, did not mean any malice. However, when he did that, I wanted pound his face into a bloody pulp.

[Ze]

I'm sure the other FTMs dislike having chivalry done TO them just as much.

Nope, I always appreciate it. :) I just don't understand the harm if it's in the realm of niceties. Men can be nice to men, men can be nice to women, women can be nice to men, women can be nice to women, trans can be nice to trans, intersexuals can be nice to intersexuals...

[Alana65]

Nope, I always appreciate it. :) I just don't understand the harm if it's in the realm of niceties. Men can be nice to men, men can be nice to women, women can be nice to men, women can be nice to women, trans can be nice to trans, intersexuals can be nice to intersexuals...

:clap: Well said Ze. Just what I was thinking, but you put to words very succinctly, what I could not. :thumbsup:

[Ze]

:clap: Well said Ze. Just what I was thinking, but you put to words very succinctly, what I could not. :thumbsup:

Ironically, I had to google "succinctly." :lol:

[TxKimberly]

. . . a cultural effect of having been raised correctly. . .

My mother, who raised the three of us children on her own, is the one that taught me manners and social niceties. She used to tell my brother and I about a date she was on. She waited for the boy to walk around and open her car door (as was expected in the 50's), and when he laughed and refused to do so, my mother got out of his car and walked home. Immediately after she got home, her big brothers went looking for her "date" and commenced to whipping his butt.
At 43, I'm not exactly old, but I was raised that this is something a polite man does. It's not some sort of lecherous attempt to get a woman to gift me with a smile, it's the way i was raised, and in my mind it is a social requirement of me, it's not a choice. Now having said that, I do expect to get some sort of acknowledgment from her. That is her end of the social "bargain".

Opening a door requires so little effort.
Saying "Thank you" requires so little effort.
Have we degenerated so far that these little tiny things that bring smiles to strangers are no longer considered worth while?

[deja true]

Nope, I always appreciate it. :) I just don't understand the harm if it's in the realm of niceties. Men can be nice to men, men can be nice to women, women can be nice to men, women can be nice to women, trans can be nice to trans, intersexuals can be nice to intersexuals...


Zackly, Ze!

What's-his-name was in LAX and bought a cuppa coffee a few weeks ago. The counter person gives you the empty cup and you gotta go over to the urn thingy and press a button to fill yer own cup. Never saw one of these dispensers before and couldn't figure out which button to push. A very nice large person in jeans and a flannel shirt got up from a nearby table and showed me how to do the technology. And looking up to thank them, I saw that he was probably an FTM. Smiles and thanks and "no problems" ensued.

Being nice, helpful, to someone... a stranger ... is not an affront or a challenge. Acknowledging someone's help is not a surrender or loss of status. These things are the subtle social lubricants that keep us from each other's throats. If ya got problems with the inconsequential social niceties, ya got problems!

:straightface:

[Alana65]

I couldn't agree with you more, Deja. :thumbsup:

[Seamus_Jameson]

Without trying to put words in his mouth, I sense a lot of anger from Bruce over being on the wrong end of things.

I am just starting to come to terms with my anger over being treated "like a girl" by other men and being unable to treat women with chivalrous respect because I'm an "icky lesbian". That hurts, badly, but it's not chivalry's fault.

[onerous]

He was just being instinctively polite, did not mean any malice. However, when he did that, I wanted pound his face into a bloody pulp.
lol. I've heard other FTMs say similar. I haven't yet wanted to beat anyone up, though I have always wanted to just freeze in front of the open door for as many minutes or hours it took to make them realise that I did NOT want to go through the door first. But eh, it would be kinda inconvenient.



I think you maybe misread the intentions of the acts of politeness.

If, as you say, you know that you're being read as a female, then you have to kinda expect that men will defer to you occassionally. There is absolutely no intention to demean or embarrass you. It's just the way men are, almost an instinctive thing, a cultural effect of having been raised correctly.
So say I'm being read as a female. I then ask them nicely, no - almost beg them, to please, PLEASE go out the door first. They absolutely refuse to listen, and insist still. Is that politeness or respect? In my opinion that is just plain rude - a girl is asking to please be left alone, that she can handle something herself, but they insist that she must be helped. Whereas she has made it clear she does NOT WANT to be helped. That imo is also disrespect towards her beliefs, her requests, her preferences, her own abilities.

What defines being "raised correctly"? Culture? In my culture here, being raised correctly does not involve chivalry. I do know that my younger brother is not taught to behave chivalrously towards women, but he is indeed taught to behave nicely towards everyone he meets. Is that not being raised correctly?



I just don't understand the harm if it's in the realm of niceties. Men can be nice to men, men can be nice to women, women can be nice to men, women can be nice to women, trans can be nice to trans, intersexuals can be nice to intersexuals...
Sure, if it was done just to be nice, that would be excellent. Everyone willingly helping each other out, that would be the best world ever. It's different, very different, though when the things that they do, they would not even dream of doing to other guys for fear of being given strange looks and possibly being called "gay". (yes they will be labeled that, at least here)

If someone wants to be helpful to others, show their respect, shouldn't they do it for everyone regardless of sex/gender? That would be even nicer.. I'm too lazy to look it up but I believe chivalry itself is defined as something being done BY men FOR women.

I would not mind someone doing something for me just to be nice, and I wouldn't mind doing things for other people, whether they be male/female/trans/intersex to be nice as well, but I do mind if the things being done are specifically done due to perceived gender.



I sense a lot of anger from Bruce over being on the wrong end of things.
I do realise I sound like a bitch here. I also believe everyone has a right to have their own opinions, even if they may differ. Maybe if you lived in the same country I do, you would understand why my opinions are such.

[Joanne f]

Thank you for ALL the post`s , it`s amazing what a passing thought can do when you share it. :)

[Felix]

Hi Joanne and sorry for the late reply here but I like the whole thing to be honest. I'm old fashioned I guess but to me there is nothing like it. I don't mean the whole macho thing far from it!!! I just mean the little things like opening doors and stuff like that, giving flowers and stuff to show appreciation. I also like to walk on the outside when possible and I sit on the outside too when travelling if we are sitting in the same seat. I know my GF likes these things alot which makes it easier. If I picked up that a female didn't I would adapt and go her way most probably. xx Felix :)

[Joanne f]

Thank you Felix, much appreciated as are all the rest .