Do you really"pass"?

[Kate Simmons]

From your own perspective, do YOU think you really "pass" when you go out there all dolled up and mingle? Do you really care? Some seem to have a needed sense of urgency to do this but does it really work or do you think others know who we really are but just don't say anything for the most part?

A good GG friend and I have an off and on ongoing discussion about this. She tells me that no matter how hard a CD tries to "pass" she can tell who and what they are. For one thing she says there is just something intrinsic missing that a woman has that CD's do not plus the added fact that she used to be married to a CD, so she is familiar with the attempts at presentation, etc. I told her I can tell because of who I am, in other words it takes one to know one.

What about those who are not so familiar with the "inner sanctum" of CDing though? Can they tell and are they really fooled, despite not saying anything? I was never really sure. This is why early on, I decided to drop any kind of "act" and just be myself out there since I was doing this mostly for myself and no one else anyway. People seemed to relate to that much better and I seemed to get more respect.

So, do we really "pass" out there and does it really matter that much? I suppose it would mostly depend on what we are trying to accomplish to begin with.:)

[Joanne f]

As for myself i know that i would never pass no matter what i done to my face the body language would instantly give me away.
And i think that this would be the case in most instance`s if someone wanted to look hard enough which maybe is the thing that could make all the difference .
Lets just say someone passed reasonably well , then most people who are carrying out their normal daily task`s would not bother to look and therefor not notice , in fact you could almost say this as well even if someone just wears a skirt out in male mode.
I geuss it is the less you stand out then the less you will be noticed and then you have all the other factors that come into play like location and so on.
Now does it really matter , well to some it will matter a great deal where as others will not be so much bothered about it .
And as for the general public i do not know but i have often wondered which they would prefer, to see a man in a skirt or a dress and know that is all it is ,but you stand out more so you will be noticed more , or to sometimes notice a man with full makeup and wig and wonder if they are tying to hide something , but they will be less noticeable, i wonder which they would respect the most , no doubt a bit of both depending where you are again .
You friends Arianna have obviously learnt to respect you for what you are which is a great achievement on your part .

[Rogina B]

Ithink that being around people with the social grace as to not make an issue out of what a person looks like is what gives a CD the boost from presenting well.And,it is one thing to get past busy people on the street or a mall,yet it is another thing to "have a couple of teenage girls up under your chin"in a checkout line! Given the time to really study many of us,our male features become more obvious to the critical eye.However,someone with manners does not make an issue,nor alert the world to our gender bending. I think that the Trans world has something to thank the Gay world for...because some gay people are so overly demonstative and dramatic in public,it has now become proper manners to "let them do as they wish".My observation is that more people have adopted that attitude and so we CD's feel that we are passing better, and that's great for all of us.We should be able to enjoy ourselves as others do.

[TSchapes]

I don't think any of us can pass 100% of the time. There has been too many times that I have spotted a well done cross-dresser but did not say anything. But most of the other people around me were oblivious.

I try and do the best I can to avoid conflict. If someone asks me though I don't hide that fact that I am a cross-dresser.

At 6'4" I've been told I pass at a distance...LOL

Love, Tracy

[TGMarla]

It all depends on a bunch of various factors. If you're overdressed, like I almost alway am, you'll draw undue attention to yourself. Such a shame, too! A guy can't even wear a pretty dress without causing a stir! Go figure.

There are several of us who pass well enough to pass as long as we don't elicit further investigation. If I just walk past someone, it's most likely no one is going to decide immediately that I'm a guy in a dress. But if they press the issue, and get a good look at my hands, for instance, I'm not going to pass muster. Damn hands!

There are a lot of dead givaways. The best I can do is try to minimize the obvious.

[Katie145]

When I went to a halloween party last year, I had several people that were "unsure" of my actual gender, and others who thought I was a GG...at least until they heard me talk. I know I CAN pass if I want to, but it would take a lot of effort for me to pass most/all of the time, something that I just don't have the energy to do 24/7. I'm pretty content just dressing up at home, with the -very- occasional outing...(maybe 1-2 times a year?)

[Nicki B]

From your own perspective, do YOU think you really "pass" when you go out there all dolled up and mingle? Do you really care?

No and no.. :heehee:


A good GG friend and I have an off and on ongoing discussion about this. She tells me that no matter how hard a CD tries to "pass" she can tell who and what they are. For one thing she says there is just something intrinsic missing that a woman has that CD's do not plus the added fact that she used to be married to a CD, so she is familiar with the attempts at presentation, etc. I told her I can tell because of who I am, in other words it takes one to know one.

I wouldn't ever expect anyone to assume I was born female - but I don't seem to have any problem getting people to react to my femininity? IMHO that comes from within you, not from what you wear on the outside..

[kellycan27]

Yes, I pass....Do I care? It makes my life much easier, so I would have to say yes I care...in that respect. It isn't something that I think about much, becasue pass or no pass.... I am out there 24/7,can't stick my head in the sand because I am having a bad hair day.
Kelly

[deja true]

Gawd, I used to stress about passing and not calling undue (and unwelcomed) attention to myself. So afraid of the negative reactions... And that kept me locked in a small, sweaty, hot, constricting closet for freekin' years!

Somehow, especially due to the wise advice from many here (you know who you are, lovers!) and the gloriously supportive activities of the Be-All and SCC conferences, I almost revel in not passing!

I was told by several companions on recent excursions that I prolly didn't need to have outted myself on purpose to various store managers or waitresses or taxi drivers, but there was a joy in doing that for me. To be in the company of just regular folks and to be up front and communicative in a pleasant and informative way strikes me as almost a requirement for some of us in order to make it easier for others like us!

Present as well as you can. Be confident and friendly and polite. Don't be shy or fearful. Encourage questions and be enthusiastic about answers. Show 'em that we're happy, shiny people, not skulkers or deceivers.

One convert at a time to a more open mind beats only singing to the choir, know what I mean?

:)

[Annie D]

To the casual glance, even at 6'2", I pass. Friends have shared that they are often asked if I am male or female and just the fact that a stranger can't immediately tell, is about all I can hope for. Even though I am filled with self-doubt about my appearance, when I am brave enough to venture out publicly I have been accepted and as a result have felt fairly comfortable. I think that the fact that I am not as "hung up" about passing 100% of the time that I was at one time that being out dressed is okay.

[Joni Marie Cruz]

For me, it's simply mind over matter. I don't mind, so it doesn't matter. Would I like to "pass" every single time I Joni-up? You betcha. Do I care if I don't, no, not much. Most of the time people don't seem to notice which I consider just as good as passing. Sometimes I can hear their jaw drop like a manhole cover falling off a utility truck. I hope it hit their foot.

Oh, I don't mean to sound quite as unconcerned as all that. Like nearly all of us, it would be really nice to have people say, "Who is that goddess?" as I'm strolling through the mall, but it just ain't gonna happen for me, at least in this incarnation. Mainly, I do it to please myself, not for them, and besides I feel like I'm giving them something to talk about in their otherwise drab lives.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[TommiTN]

I don't think I "pass", even under casual scrutiny. I just try to achieve the best feminine presentation I can and am constantly working to improve. But pass in the sense of being undetectable? I think a very tiny percentage of us may be able but me? Not in this life!

[Gabrielle Hermosa]

From your own perspective, do YOU think you really "pass" when you go out there all dolled up and mingle? Do you really care?

No, I do not pass in person. Yes, I really do care.

It is not just an out-and-about thing. It's not just that I want to pass so that people will leave me alone (read: not harass me for being a crossdresser). My personal interest is in appearing completely female when I dress. It's and art form as well as an ultimate achievement to me.

Some are not interested in passing, nor do they seek to. No problem with that at all. I do, however. Whether or not I'll ever achieve that remains to be seen. I would very much like to achieve that goal though, regardless of who feels it unnecessary. It is necessary for me because that is how I feel about it. We've all got our own goals in life. :)

[Julogden]

Based on what I experienced in many years of being out and about in the TG community back in the 1980's and 1990's and having met a ton of TG folks from all over the spectrum, I'd say that if we're talking strictly about crossdressers, as in males who only resort to clothing, makeup, wigs, etc. and aren't using hormones, haven't had their beard removed, haven't had any surgery to alter their appearance, then I'd basically agree with your friend: very, very few can pass totally, but there are some, especially when young, lots of really young CD's are passable, in appearance anyway. Gets a lot harder as we age though.

I think most CD's who go out in public probably pass at least some of the time, but not always. I feel that what most of us who go out in public experience is tolerance. I've seen quite a few CD's in public in recent years that were obviously males dressed as women, and watching the reactions of people around them, it was obvious that everyone who was paying attention knew that they were males, but they were tolerated, no one challenged them, no one was rude. That, in my book, isn't passing, but as far as I'm concerned, it's better than passing, as they were being accepted for who they were.

When it comes to those of us who are on hormones, especially those who started on hormones at a young age, have had electrolysis or laser treatments to remove hair, maybe had some facial feminization surgery done, then I'd disagree with your friend, as I've met many who are totally passable. I've met quite a few TG women who I would never have guessed that the were anything other than female at birth.

That all said, I have been mistaken for a female a few times when dressed totally as a man, once when I was at a nearby lake doing some fishing, and I'm 6'5" tall in my bare feet, so go figure.

As always, that's just my :2c: based on a life that has had some very interesting moments associated with things transgendered.:)

Carol

[Cheryl T]

I don't think "passing" is the real issue. Most of us will not pass in public and personally it's not why I do what I do.
I dress to express my femininity and I try to present that to the world when I go out. For me it's not about the clothes or passing, it's about being me.
I've been in all kinds of situations and I've found it's not about the "passing", but about the display of confidence we have in ourselves and our feminine nature that presents us as female to the world and this is also what creates our acceptance in the public eye.
Some want only to go out, no matter what. I've seen that in some groups I've noticed at various shopping centers. One girl looks like part of the crowd and another is wearing a pink tutu and white tights shopping at Macy's.

If you want to go out and be accepted (forget about really passing unless you are really, really good) then dress appropriately for where you are going and the time of day, act feminine, but not flamboyant and be confident in yourself. It's not about putting on a show, it's about being part of the larger world.

Sorry for the verbose answer...my :2c:

[Jilmac]

I consider passing as blending in. I know I'm not the prettiest girl, my weather worn and ruddy features show even under my makeup, and a tatoo on my left forearm and my baritone voice are both dead giveaways. But I always try to dress in a manner in which I can blend in with the majority, and more often than not, I'm hardly noticed when I'm in public.

I decided shortly after coming out, that being myself and not trying to fool anybody was the way to go. I know I've been read, I don't know how often and I don't really care. I enjoy dressing and being Jill whenever the opportunity arises and I don't have a problen with being read. The majority of people I have dealt with have treated me like a lady wheather they read me or not. I think the most important thing in passing is how I present myself.

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Good for you, Gabrielle. I applaud you. In some ways I think it's something we should all strive for (probly gonna get slammed for that) even though we may not think we can ever do it. It is what I try to do even though I know I'm not going to make it. Like you said, we should all have goals.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[Miranda09]

Well, I don't know if I pass in public. I think I do, but that's just my perspective, and it is important to me that I know if I am convincing in public. Someday I may put it to a more rigerous test, maybe similar to me first time out at Be-All.

[Richelle]

I don't think any of us can pass 100% of the time. There has been too many times that I have spotted a well done cross-dresser but did not say anything. But most of the other people around me were oblivious.

I try and do the best I can to avoid conflict. If someone asks me though I don't hide that fact that I am a cross-dresser.



I agree with Tracy that we cannot do it all the time, but most people area oblivious to the others around them and at those times I pass with no problem.

And yes, I want to pass just to avoid confrontations

Richeal

[Sally24]

A good GG friend and I have an off and on ongoing discussion about this. She tells me that no matter how hard a CD tries to "pass" she can tell who and what they are.
Anyone so certain that they can be right all the time is almost certainly wrong. I have met 1 or 2 CD's in my times about that were dead on. They had the size, shape, voice and movement perfectly. And that's not even discussing transexuals with hormones and surguries!



For one thing she says there is just something intrinsic missing that a woman has that CD's.
It's called cultural conditioning for 20 years, and it can be learned.

I pass alot of the time and I do prefer that. It's not a make or break thing for me anymore though. I enjoy looking good and if people take me for female looking, that's usually enough.

[Kate Simmons]

I agree with Tracy that we cannot do it all the time, but most people area oblivious to the others around them and at those times I pass with no problem.

And yes, I want to pass just to avoid confrontations

RichealI know Hon. Not even our FAB friends can do it all the time. Hell, they've even admitted that.:heehee:

[deja true]

Originally Posted by Arianna Daniels
A good GG friend and I have an off and on ongoing discussion about this. She tells me that no matter how hard a CD tries to "pass" she can tell who and what they are.

Um...pheromones?

[Nicki B]

In some ways I think it's something we should all strive for (probly gonna get slammed for that) even though we may not think we can ever do it.

If, by passing, you mean the world doesn't realise you weren't born female - then how are we ever going to gain any acceptance??? People will just assume we don't exist, if they don't know we are there..

[Kate Simmons]

If, by passing, you mean the world doesn't realise you weren't born female - then how are we ever going to gain any acceptance??? People will just assume we don't exist, if they don't know we are there..You and I are cut from the same cloth Nicki. I've been preaching this for years now. What a lot of it is I think is that many folks cannot differentiate in personal "standards of excellence" (in other words if I'm going to do it, I may as well give it my best efforts) we may have versus thinking they have to BECOME what they are trying to emulate, which of course, accomplishes nothing for the community if they succeed as they remain "invisible". We can accomplish the goal of recognition in a fun way by using finesse and a good imagination. Works for me.;):)

[Shikyo]

I don't think I really pass totally all the time. Not like I care about it at all. Living as a girl 24 hours a day for seven days a week and so far no one has a made a big deal about it. No strange looks (besides when I'm out there with a short skirt in cold weather but that's already something else) when I walk around, no one comments me in anyway. Do they think I pass, sure for some of them, but all? I highly doubt that. I just can't imagine passing in front of everyone. There will always be that one who can see the truth.

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Good point, Nicki. And you are right, of course, we should be ourselves as TG people and gain acceptance for who we are, not try to disguise ourselves so perfectly that no one realizes we're even out there. However, I still believe we should strive to do the best we can. Of course anyone can dress, or ideally should be able to, however they want. If someone wants to wear a pink tutu and tights, as someone else mentioned, to go to the local Walmart, then that should be okay.

Speaking for myself and knowing that I will never in a million years completely fool anyone into believing I'm a natal female, I still try, to paraphrase that Army commercial, to be all the girl I can be.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[AKAMichelle]

I know that I don't pass, but then again I don't really care.

I have a friend who I play golf with regularly. She is always dressed when we play golf. The first time we played golf, the guy in the group was suppose to be her husband. See we played with 2 ladies and they just chatted her up. They asked all kinds of personal questions about marriage, kids and menopause. I think those 2 women had no clue.

The next time we played golf, some girl on the golf course asked me if she was my girlfriend. I laughed and said no - we're just good friends.

My oldest son knows that I am a crossdresser and one day at work while I was there I saw my golfing buddy buy a video game from my son. He never once flinced when he said ma'am. He has never brought it up to me about this person being a crossdresser.

There are some that pass, but it takes much more to pass than makeup, hair and the clothes. It is the personality. Women protray certain keys which if emulated correctly does lead to that person being passable.

All you have to do is look at some of the transexual who completely transitioned to see how they can get along in society as women. I think it takes much more practice that most of the weekend warriors are willing to put into passing.

[JenniferR771]

Sure some cds pass. I was shopping and a nicely dressed woman started looking at the same rack of dresses. I shyed away and moved over to shoes. I looked back a few minutes later and noticed she was rather tall, big-boned and overdressed for Goodwill. I got in her line of sight and gave her a big wink. She grinned and winked back and came over to talk with me. She said she suspected me because I was looking at the dresses in drab. She introduced herself. We traded email addys. Met for coffee next week.

[clive]

I don't really think I pass most of the time, but I could if I wanted to. I have before. Personally, I try not to. Not as a way of saying, "Look at me, I'm a crossdresser", but rather as a way of saying "Look at me, I'm an intersex individual". I'll dress in ways that accentuate all of my 'assets', not just my female ones. Kind of a way of saying "#%@$ you" to the guys at the park who will jog in the opposite direction just so they can watch my boobies bounce in my sports bra for a few seconds.

[Sarah...]

I've given up caring. Why? Because everyone I've told or who knows seems to simply accept what I'm telling them about my gender. So that helps me smile, be myself and contribute to society as a valued member.

I don't think it gets any better than that really.

Sarah...

[Miranda-E]

Passing as a woman is incredibly easy. People have trouble passing as their idea of an ideal woman.

[windycissy]

Oh, this is a silly question.

Of course some CDs pass, and no, there isn't a "secret" way in which you can "just tell".

The thing is - you never notice them. Because they pass. They may not be very numerous, and I only make one of them on very rare occasions for ten minutes at a time, but I know at least half a dozen whom the vanilla world would never suspect. And the vanilla world is 94% of the world, who never spend the slightest moment thinking about us transvestites, so why should they go looking for secret clues? They're more interested in shopping for dinner or getting home to watch the big game on TV.

So how do you know whether that person opposite you in the train is a tranny-who-passes? The answer is that they look just like a woman. So if you see a man who looks just like a woman...

Perfectly put...as I've said before, crossdressers fall into a bell-shaped curve, and for those of us lucky enough to be not too tall, not too broad-shouldered, etc. it's very possible to pass convincingly if you dress appropriately, have the makeup down, invest in a quality wig and behave like a confident, happy woman. And yes, it's important to me because the experience of passing through the world as a woman is the ultimate challenge and tons of fun!

[AmandaM]

When I was in my 20's, I was close. But, I'm sure girls could still tell. Now, forget it. But, I also care less now. :)

[Deborah Jane]

Nope, the only thing i pass is wind :o

[Misty is Kindafem]

It's been said so many times that it's almost a cliche but it really does come from inside. Confidence is NOT the key factor however. It's comfort and belief.

Gurls will be 100% confident and couldn't give a damn and their posture is straight and their head held high ...and they get read instantly by everyone.

I've been dabbling at this off and on for most of my life and lately (midlife crisis?) I've decided to finally quit the stupid boy act. I met Carla (from Carla's) yesterday and we were talking about me (my favorite subject) for a few minutes and the answer hit me like a ton of bricks.

I was always the sissy or the fag when I was growing up. Picked last for the teams, pushed around etc etc. I even overheard a couple of girls talking about me in the 6th grade once. "He's cute but I don't know" is all I heard because they were walking by the little water fountain cove I was in and to this day that moment stands out in my memory like it's been highlighted.

Growing up in the rural south, all I wanted was to be accepted but instead I spent a LOT of time alone and I'm ashamed to say thought about killing myself more than a few times. Anyway, I'm off the bend here,

The point is, I've spent my WHOLE life trying to act like a man. Everything from my walk, to my voice was subject to ridicule and I was working on it. Even my younger sister used to tease me about sitting, throwing whatever. I absolutely hated the phrase "like a girl" because it always meant somebody was picking on me.

Well now, I'm 39 and I'm all boy. My natural tendencies have been beaten and pushed so deep into my soul that until my meeting with Carla (she has no idea how important that few minutes was) I thought I would spend the second half (um two thirds) of my life trying to undo all of the damage done by a scared, insecure little boy. That time I spent in her salon being called "she" and "her" changed everything.

I do have a lot of work to do, (again) but I realized that in my heart I'm still her. My brain and body have been twisted and distorted but my first impulse is always feminine. I just have to let go. So many of you have a similar story and one of the biggest mistakes we make is to try and "be" feminine. That misguided effort to "be" is what will always give us away. we need to erase the years of conditioning and simply accept and believe that we "are".

I will no longer fight my movements or try to correct a gesture because it never works. I've spent so many years suppressing fem characteristics that I've become a bit of a blackbelt at it. Trying to "be" more fem becomes an awkward comedy of correction and over correction as my finely honed sense of the antifem is locked in mortal combat with the poor little girl inside who just wants some freakin' air.

I've decided to just let it be. Little by little the masculine will wither away from lack of attention and the feminine will grow and thrive in the sunlight until anyone looking at me will have no choice but to see me for who I am. They won't see a struggle so they will accept me as I present.

Will I pass? You better believe it baby.

-Misty

[Sam-antha]

In the dim distant past, when I was so much younger, my reply to the post would be a definite yes in terms of passing. I do have some old photos that I like to think supports the idea.
Nowadays, I am not be so sure about the "always" part of it.
I still think/hope that I can pass in a crowded street. But the people in a crowded street are busy, thinking of the crowded shops et al. I am the last thing that they see in their minds, even if they look straight at me.....



I believe.


However, that being said there is body shape to take into consideration. There are plenty of shapes out there to choose and to see walking around so that is not so important really. Dress likewise, but then one dresses to suit the body.


I like mine


More important is what one does with the body and the face/mouth above it. It is there that most "believers" must sometimes fail.


I repeat, sometimes.


The "unbelievers", well I am not so sure there, but then, if they are "unbelievers" and are out in the street, then "the hundred percent passing" is not on their active horizon.


They are out and that is what matters.


As far as the caring that one is "one hundred per cent", I feel that it is very important to care,


It helps.


That said, it also helps if one does not care, if read, but only in the secondary mode


No doubt I will return and edit/disclaim or whatever, but there are my random thoughts :love: just entered as they occured. :drink::tongueout


~Samm

[Gabrielle Hermosa]

Good for you, Gabrielle. I applaud you. In some ways I think it's something we should all strive for (probly gonna get slammed for that) even though we may not think we can ever do it. It is what I try to do even though I know I'm not going to make it. Like you said, we should all have goals.

Hugs...Joni Mari

You'll never get slammed by me for saying that. I admit that it is important for me to pass. I think some will say it is not important to them probably because they feel they cannot achieve it so why bother. I think they will say this even though deep down inside, they really would like to pass. I don't to put down anyone who thinks this way, but rather pointing out a common psychological process that applies to many things in life. When one feels they cannot achieve [whatever], they simply say "it's not important" or "I don't care anyway". It's called being human. And no, I am not in any way implying or accusing anyone here of this kind of reaction. I am only pointing out that it exists, it is very common, and it is part of being human.


I don't pass.. :(
At least I think I don't... I do get the weird look once in a while.. or maybe they're like.. "look at that ugly asian girl over there!" >.<

Please don't take this the wrong way, Devonny, but I think ou might be fishing for a compliment to boost your (seemingly) low self-esteem or low opinion of your femme appearance. Having said that, I'll bite.

Based on the only image reference I have of you... I WISH I looked as passable as you! Not only do you look passable in your avatar, you look very attractive as well. To see your avatar image on any other non-cd message forum would be like seeing any attractive gg. I'm not saying that to help out with your low opinion of your image, but rather just stating a fact. :)

What "ugly Asian girl over there"? I don't see any - that's the truth.

For what it's worth, I've often wished I was Asian. I think Asian women are the most beautiful in the world, and I also think that (more often than not) Asian crossdressers are the most passable.

[AllieSF]

I don't pass completely and accept that fact. Yes, I would love to be able to pass completely and no I will not underdo how I dress so that I can show everybody what a nice CD I am to further the "cause". Actually, I don't have to worry about that based on my first sentence. However, I am very comfortable in most situations when I go out. I am not a reactive person when out. I am pro-active, extroverted and am normally the one who brings someone else sitting at the restaurant, in the store, at the wine bar into our conversations and many times to our table, be they straight, gay, lesbian or whatever. I am a very happy and positive person, except when looking for that elusive close-by parking spot downtown.

Passing to me has a lot of definitions to me. One is completely passing whereby no one knows that the person is anything but a girl or a man (depending on who is doing the crossdressing). That is great and probably would be my dream situation as long as I could look a lot younger. Another is passing to casual observers and being read upon closer inspection. That is me. The last is passing for yourself, whereby you are confident, comfortable and can just be yourself without worrying about what others see or think. That is pretty much me too. I do this for the enjoyment it gives me, and that is a lot. Happy dressing.

[Deedee Dupree]

Hi Arianna, First I'm replying to this one without reading what's been posted so far, then I'll read & see how far off the wall I am. :)

Today I can pass at a distance, but within a year of coming out I realized that passing, aside from it's practical advantages, didn't matter so much. When I am out in a crowd(i choose the venue carefully) a large part of the satisfaction I get out of crossdressing is being seen by others as a person who is happy being a crossdresser. What you see is what you get. And if someone is curious and would like to chat to that "happy person over there", I am delighted to tell them all about it, satisfying their curiosity, confirming their observations and validating the way I feel.

If I could pass most of the time I don't think I would get much out of being "invisible". For me "invisibility" is an artifact from the dark ages. I put my feminine expresion on the table.

I realize many here may not feel that way.

[Shikyo]

Please don't take this the wrong way, Devonny, but I think ou might be fishing for a compliment to boost your (seemingly) low self-esteem or low opinion of your femme appearance. Having said that, I'll bite.

I don't really think the looks of someone has anything to do with how they think about themselves. We only see ourselves totally differently then other people, we have time to find all the flaws in our own bodies. For others, they most likely won't even see them at all, but as we know they're there it makes us feel ashamed. Especially girls have hard time to accept that they do look good, at least I haven't seen that many girls going around complaining about how good they look, have you?

Of course, there are also people who just seek compliments and other things, but is that so bad in the end? In the end it might be the only thing that cheers them up from their daily life or even helps to get rid of depressions.

Myself, I also think that Devonny looks great.


For what it's worth, I've often wished I was Asian. I think Asian women are the most beautiful in the world, and I also think that (more often than not) Asian crossdressers are the most passable.

Indeed, nothing beats the Asian beauty. I'm also very very jealous to any Asian girls I see (that's why I'm debating with myself if I should be jealous to my wife or not).

[vivianann]

I do not pass and I go out enfemme all the time and I have positive experiences all the time, I wear nice dresses and skirts, I am slightly overdressed but that is my style and it fits my personality, and peaple are accepting of it. I wear very little makeup, and my clothes and hair are conservative. And I behave like a lady because I am dressed like a lady. peaple seem to respond positively to me and it is reasuring to hear positive feedback about my presentation. If we behave in a proper manner and act like ladies peaple will be respectful. I like the fact I do not pass because it gives me an opportunity to educate peaple that we a normal, and that we comes from all walks of life, from very poor to very rich, all professions, and that most of us are married or in a relationship with women. and that crossdressing has nothing to do with our sexual orientation. It is sad and amazing the public perceptions about crossdressing, however when peaple realize we are not freaks or weirdo's, they are our best allies, and they in turn can educate others that we are just normal peaple trying to make it through life.

[Kelsy]

It's been said so many times that it's almost a cliche but it really does come from inside. Confidence is NOT the key factor however. It's comfort and belief.

Gurls will be 100% confident and couldn't give a damn and their posture is straight and their head held high ...and they get read instantly by everyone.

I've been dabbling at this off and on for most of my life and lately (midlife crisis?) I've decided to finally quit the stupid boy act. I met Carla (from Carla's) yesterday and we were talking about me (my favorite subject) for a few minutes and the answer hit me like a ton of bricks.

I was always the sissy or the fag when I was growing up. Picked last for the teams, pushed around etc etc. I even overheard a couple of girls talking about me in the 6th grade once. "He's cute but I don't know" is all I heard because they were walking by the little water fountain cove I was in and to this day that moment stands out in my memory like it's been highlighted.

Growing up in the rural south, all I wanted was to be accepted but instead I spent a LOT of time alone and I'm ashamed to say thought about killing myself more than a few times. Anyway, I'm off the bend here,

The point is, I've spent my WHOLE life trying to act like a man. Everything from my walk, to my voice was subject to ridicule and I was working on it. Even my younger sister used to tease me about sitting, throwing whatever. I absolutely hated the phrase "like a girl" because it always meant somebody was picking on me.

Well now, I'm 39 and I'm all boy. My natural tendencies have been beaten and pushed so deep into my soul that until my meeting with Carla (she has no idea how important that few minutes was) I thought I would spend the second half (um two thirds) of my life trying to undo all of the damage done by a scared, insecure little boy. That time I spent in her salon being called "she" and "her" changed everything.

I do have a lot of work to do, (again) but I realized that in my heart I'm still her. My brain and body have been twisted and distorted but my first impulse is always feminine. I just have to let go. So many of you have a similar story and one of the biggest mistakes we make is to try and "be" feminine. That misguided effort to "be" is what will always give us away. we need to erase the years of conditioning and simply accept and believe that we "are".

I will no longer fight my movements or try to correct a gesture because it never works. I've spent so many years suppressing fem characteristics that I've become a bit of a blackbelt at it. Trying to "be" more fem becomes an awkward comedy of correction and over correction as my finely honed sense of the antifem is locked in mortal combat with the poor little girl inside who just wants some freakin' air.

I've decided to just let it be. Little by little the masculine will wither away from lack of attention and the feminine will grow and thrive in the sunlight until anyone looking at me will have no choice but to see me for who I am. They won't see a struggle so they will accept me as I present.

Will I pass? You better believe it baby.

-Misty

That's really it isn't it Misty!! trying to pass as what!? many of us are female gendered and have just as much diffculty passing as a man as we do passing as a woman!!!

Be the feminine person you are and denigh it no more!! I love your perspective!

:hugs:Kelsy

[Ruth]

When I started going out I would overdress for the situation and so was frequently 'made'. With experience I blend in better and I would say in public situations I pass most of the time. But remember this, I pass as a rather plain looking middle-aged woman, not the type to get admiring glances from men.
If I tried to 'glam up', which I often do in private, I would, paradoxically, look, to myself, more feminine, but would not pass nearly as well (if at all).
This is a pity, but I enjoy what I've got. I love to be treated as a woman, in the street and in shops. And yes, I can do the voice: I don't have a deep voice anyway, so with a little modulation, and as long as I don't talk too much, it's fine. Smiling a lot is also important (women smile more than men, particularly when interacting).

[Misty is Kindafem]

Thanks Kelsey,

After rereading my post I realized I totally forgot to say what I wanted to say in the first place, which was, I had so much trouble "passing" as a boy that I think it'll be a hell of a lot easier to pass as what has always come natural to me.

I'm such a dork, I started with the header and then got way off on a tangent. I have no idea how you understood me. I guess it was implied but, damn girl you are perceptive.

Remind me to never try to lie to you.

-Misty

[Nicki B]

Passing to me has a lot of definitions to me. One is completely passing whereby no one knows that the person is anything but a girl or a man (depending on who is doing the crossdressing). That is great and probably would be my dream situation as long as I could look a lot younger. Another is passing to casual observers and being read upon closer inspection. That is me. The last is passing for yourself, whereby you are confident, comfortable and can just be yourself without worrying about what others see or think. That is pretty much me too.

Perhaps worth reviving this (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87757)?


What's obvious from this thread is how much it matters, to so many people... :sad:

[tanya1976]

No definately not. As noted here I had a short period of time, say late teens to mid 20s when passing, at least physically anyway, was achievable. However even then my mannerisms would have given me away.
But as I enter my30s, metabolism slowing down, weight gain, heavier hair growth it is not possible, or at least only possible in the most flattering of pictures. Although my legs are still in pretty good shape it's fairly obvious I have the upper body of a male. More so since I started weight training. Luckily it is not my aim to pass as a gg, just a well dressed/ sexy/ interesting/intruiging crossdresser...

[kellycan27]

If, by passing, you mean the world doesn't realise you weren't born female - then how are we ever going to gain any acceptance??? People will just assume we don't exist, if they don't know we are there..

Works for me....The less people who don't realize I wasn't born a genetic female, the better I like it. I want my life to be as vanilla as possible. I think I have paid my dues. it's been a long hard road for me, and I feel like I have arrived for the most part. It's like building your dream house, and finally getting the chance to live in and enjoy it. lol ( just a bit of landscaping left to do).
Kelly

[TJ Tresa]

In all honesty I don't know if I would pass or not. I have had two gay girlfriends tell me that I was hot but that isn't passing in public. My wife tells me I could pass and I have thought about trying to go out. But I am a chicken cluck cluck. Maybe someday if I do that will be around the same time I fell confident enough to post pictures.

[christinek]

I do not think I pass, I would like too. However I am out and happy so I guess that is all that matters for me.

[Nicki B]

Works for me....The less people who don't realize I wasn't born a genetic female, the better I like it.

So which do you think is more important for us, Kelly - passing, or acceptance?

[Sammy777]

There seems to be two distinct camps dividing the goals of out-n-about cd'ers.

First is the Passing group
Second is the Awareness group
With leads to a cd'er catch 22

If passing [completely] is the goal and you reach that goal and are taken and treated as a women you have succeeded. But if you succeed, then no one knows you did it.
Like pulling off "the perfect crime" it only stays a perfect crime if no one knows it was you that did it.


If Awareness is the goal and you are trying to open peoples eyes to the fact of "yes we exist and we are out in the world" then basically you would be blowing your own carefully crafted cover of being a women in public.

The way I see it is, you can't have it both ways.
Either you look and act your best to be a women.
Or you try to educate people around you basically making them aware you are not a women just so they know you are out there in the world.

So look and act your best to be a women,
while still being looked at as a guy in dress so people are accepting??
It makes no sense to me.

I would rather be seen as a fugly girl then a "man in a dress".
Although, that is just me because I really have no desire to be seen as a man period for much longer.

[kellycan27]

So which do you think is more important for us, Kelly - passing, or acceptance?

To be perfectly honest I don't see us being accepted as a group anytime soon. Too much division between crossdressers,TS's,gays,bi's. Our predjudice and bias shows, there doesn't seem to be a united front. Those who want it will go out and get it, those who don't or say they can't will complain about it.
Anone who has the nerve and the ambition to go for it has my support. I pass and I am accepted.. because I made it happen. Call me selfish if you want to, but i am not ashamed of my stance. I am 26 years old and I feel like I have the world by the tail. it's my turn and I am taking full advantage. I don't want to look back in 20 or 30 years and say.. I wish I would have done this or that. I''ll stand by you, but I won't try and drag you out of the closest.

[Gabrielle Hermosa]

I don't really think the looks of someone has anything to do with how they think about themselves. We only see ourselves totally differently then other people, we have time to find all the flaws in our own bodies.

A large part of my own low self-esteem issues in life were because I found myself very unattractive. I didn't (fully) realize until much later in life that it was because I always wanted to look pretty rather than (manly) handsome. There were times when I just didn't want to face people at all because I felt so ugly (and bad about myself as such).

I think it varies from person to person - how much their appearance affects their esteem or lack there of.


Indeed, nothing beats the Asian beauty. I'm also very very jealous to any Asian girls I see (that's why I'm debating with myself if I should be jealous to my wife or not).

Why not? I get jealous of my own wife all the time. lol I even tell her about it. She's not Asian, but has a similar look. I actually mistook her for Asian when I first met her.

It makes her feel weird when I tell her I'm jealous, but she knows it's not the bad, resentful jealousy - I'm just a bit envious of her feminine beauty. It comes so easily to her... as it does to many gg's. :sigh:

[Rogina B]

I feel that in most cases,it is not to be expected that a transitioned girl,living 24/7 as a woman, would want the world to know differently. I am sure that it is better that they "fly under the radar". As far as many crossdressers go,Arianna has a valid point in that in many cd's aren't fooling anyone really and maybe it is best if people know us as the polite,decent people that we are.It really doesn't matter as long as you do your best.People usually don't rush to "light the torches and grab the pitchforks" when someone different is in front of them.Most of the out and about girls enjoy blending in.The ones that dress like *****s are the only CDs that I want nothing to do with while out in public.

[Misty is Kindafem]

I am 26 years old and I feel like I have the world by the tail. it's my turn and I am taking full advantage. I don't want to look back in 20 or 30 years and say.. I wish I would have done this or that.


So inspirational. So beautiful.

Do you see how pressure makes diamonds?

Squeeze her all you want but you're only making her better.

-Misty

[Shikyo]

I think it varies from person to person - how much their appearance affects their esteem or lack there of.

I think that one has a lot to do with the past. As how other people behaved towards you, did they make fun of you etc. So even if one turns out to be pretty in the end, they'll have hard time understanding it because of their past experiences.


Why not? I get jealous of my own wife all the time. lol I even tell her about it. She's not Asian, but has a similar look. I actually mistook her for Asian when I first met her.

My wife's from the Japanese heritage, the nation of people that fits my sense of beauty the best.


It makes her feel weird when I tell her I'm jealous, but she knows it's not the bad, resentful jealousy - I'm just a bit envious of her feminine beauty. It comes so easily to her... as it does to many gg's. :sigh:

Hmm...I think phrased my sentenced a little badly earlier. She knows I'm jealous, can't understand why, but she knows it. The debate is more so how much jealous is there at that moment, as it changes slightly each day.

[Kate Simmons]

Dee Dee seems to have it right on the money. Passing as a happy person definately works for me, perceived gender notwithstanding.:battingeyelashes::)

[Nicki B]

To be perfectly honest I don't see us being accepted as a group anytime soon. Too much division between crossdressers,TS's,gays,bi's. Our predjudice and bias shows, there doesn't seem to be a united front.

But as far as the rest of the world is concerned, they don't see any differences.. :strugglin



The trouble with going 'stealth' is that it's hiding - it implies you're ashamed/afraid of your past and of being 'outed'. Whereas if you're truly comfortable with who you are, then people can't hurt you?

[Kate Simmons]

I can definately understand where many guys may feel the need to be "pretty" by dressing up. Quite honestly though there is more to beauty than being and looking feminine. Some tend to not feel good about presenting the image of a guy who has feelings, but this too is in all actuality perpetuating a stereotype. A truly beautiful person is one who does beautiful things and is not determined by what they wear. For the most part this realization comes with experience and age though for those who really pay attention. A beautiful man is just as beautiful as a beautiful woman in their own way. Have doubts? Just ask your SO, she will tell it like it is.:)

[Rachel Morley]

A good GG friend and I have an off and on ongoing discussion about this. She tells me that no matter how hard a CD tries to "pass" she can tell who and what they are.
My wife says a similar thing. She is a big supporter and ally of the TG community and spends a lot of time around T-girls (TS & CD) but she says that she can almost always tell.


So, do we really "pass" out there and does it really matter that much? I suppose it would mostly depend on what we are trying to accomplish to begin with.:)
Indeed. It only matters if you want it to.


If, by passing, you mean the world doesn't realise you weren't born female - then how are we ever going to gain any acceptance??? People will just assume we don't exist, if they don't know we are there..Exactly! It's a dilemma that's for sure. For me, I don't think I ever truly pass, not close up anyway. I think I do pass from a distance, and I think people are not too sure about me when I'm close-ish, but if you get a close look at me or I speak ... no way. Personally I try not to care if pass or not, of course it would be nice, but I'll settle for being treated as the gender I'm trying to present as, which is what usually happens :)

[Misty is Kindafem]

Whereas if you're truly comfortable with who you are, then people can't hurt you?


Truth.

Comfort is the struggle and is the root of confidence.

Collect little patches of comfort until you can make a blanket.

Little by little,
I feel comfortable saying I'm a gurl.
I feel comfortable meeting someone new.
I feel comfortable walking in my back yard
I feel comfortable being fitted for a new wig

and so on,

I grow more comfortable with myself every day.

Soon I will a have new security blanket that will be SOOOOO comfy. Kinda like a snuggie, but different.

-Misty

[Nicki B]

The way I see it is, you can't have it both ways.
Either you look and act your best to be a women.
Or you try to educate people around you basically making them aware you are not a women just so they know you are out there in the world.

So look and act your best to be a women,
while still being looked at as a guy in dress so people are accepting??
It makes no sense to me.

Because perhaps you're still stuck in a binary mindset? You can be a trans-woman (or trans-man) without being a genetic one..

[Kate Simmons]

Because perhaps you're still stuck in a binary mindset? You can be a trans-woman (or trans-man) without being a genetic one..Yeah Nicki, I guess it really confuses 'em when I'm Rich, dressed as Arianna, dressed as Eric. Say that three times fast.;):battingeyelashes::)

[kellycan27]

But as far as the rest of the world is concerned, they don't see any differences.. :strugglin



The trouble with going 'stealth' is that it's hiding - it implies you're ashamed/afraid of your past and of being 'outed'. Whereas if you're truly comfortable with who you are, then people can't hurt you?

I suppose that you can look at it that way if you want to. I don't look at it as hiding anything. I look at it as being who and what I am. You seem to have a problem with my not wanting to be a poster girl for the transgendered.So you accuse me of hiding because I am not shouting from the rooftops.There are those who have the need to know about me such as my employer, and the men I have dated. I have had no issues with sharing this information with any of these people.
Shame and fear and being outted are non-issues with me. I believe that I have transended those things. Quite simply, I am a woman through and through. I am truly comfortable with who I am.
If you want to crusade for crossdressers and transgendered...more power to you, but trying to put me in a trick bag because I don't isn't going to work.
Anyone and everyone who has any meaning in my life knows exactly who I am. Who else needs to know? unless of course... I am supposed to be a champion for the cause.
As for the rest of the world is concerned.... Not being a poster girl for the cause... I couldn't care less, and to be perfectly honest I don't think that they could either. So who are really the ones who are uncomfortable.. the ones who feel that they have to prove something to the world..show society that that they are not different, or the ones who don't worry about it and just try and live normal lives?

[Tasha McIntyre]

I would have said absolutely not, until a couple of weeks ago when I made a walk through a very busy shopping centre. Now I think I pass to the casual observer (from a moderate distance) who is more interested in their own daily business. If someone really looks, they see right through me......height, arms and shoulders give me away.

One couple deliberately walked past me very slowly twice, looking very hard. I heard him say, I don't know....can't tell. That was a huge burst of confidence.:daydreaming:

Having said all of that, I don't really worry about whether I pass or not. I CD in public these days because I get one hell of a buzz out of it, but I also feel I am furthering our cause, if only by a little bit. By presenting myself the best I can, and exhibiting confidence in public I feel I cover both aspects.

I hope that makes sense

Cheers

Tash :)

[BeckiB]

nope not at all!!!!

[kellycan27]

nope not at all!!!!
Nope not at all as in passing?

[KateSpade83]

I passed VERY WELL! When I didn't have a good enough wig I got read as the wind blew it off kilter and showed it's flaw... Then in early outing attempts I had low confidence and people would read me by that... And my early voice attempts needed work so I got read if I didn't have enough of a girly voice...

After getting advice from here, getting a perfect enough $32 wig, getting a good enough femme voice, and discovering makeup technique and electric shaving for that perfect beard cover -- I pass about 98% of the time and have gone to crowded washrooms, fitting rooms, and I have even been hit on by men! Passing a lady distributing flyers in Downtown Chicago, she said, "Want a flyer, BEAUTY?" And two guys in a suit followed me into a restaurant where I threw them off with my guy voice and made them laugh!

I got the perfect stats for a crossdresser! 5' 4" tall and a size 4 to 6, even when I'm overweight now at 155 lbs!

When I go out shopping, I wear a nice casual outfit or skirt suit [if I won't sweat in it]. Then I make sure I doll up my beauty with foundation and a beautiful red lipstick! Plus clip on earrings.

Women smile at me, treat me special sometimes, I have had "lesbian hit ons," and I had been scouted. Oh, but I've been read too... mainly by lack off confidence, my beard grew back, or a poor femme voice.

I'm not photogenic but I'm pretty in REAL LIFE! I dress up to admire my beauty in a full length mirror too!

[Kristen Kelly]

I don't think "passing" is the real issue. Most of us will not pass in public and personally it's not why I do what I do.
I dress to express my femininity and I try to present that to the world when I go out. For me it's not about the clothes or passing, it's about being me.
I've been in all kinds of situations and I've found it's not about the "passing", but about the display of confidence we have in ourselves and our feminine nature that presents us as female to the world and this is also what creates our acceptance in the public eye.
Some want only to go out, no matter what. I've seen that in some groups I've noticed at various shopping centers. One girl looks like part of the crowd and another is wearing a pink tutu and white tights shopping at Macy's.

If you want to go out and be accepted (forget about really passing unless you are really, really good) then dress appropriately for where you are going and the time of day, act feminine, but not flamboyant and be confident in yourself. It's not about putting on a show, it's about being part of the larger world.

Sorry for the verbose answer...my :2c:

Cheryl I agreee with you totally I don't think I pass but I do know how to blend, when out I am dressed to my surroundings, just another sheep in the flock, but my confidence in knowing I belong there does help with how others see me. I have a GG friend, she is 5' 10", she borrows many of my clothes for we are the same size down to the shoes, we have been out shopping and out to dinner and she didn't pass, due to her size, for she was seen as one of us.

[Sammy777]

Because perhaps you're still stuck in a binary mindset? You can be a trans-woman (or trans-man) without being a genetic one..

Believe me, my mind is far from a binary mindset.

What I was saying is that you [no matter who or what you are or are trying to present as] can't have it both ways.

Either be the card carrying CD TS TV TG M O U S E and be outspoken about it or be the "passing" unnoticed women in a crowd.

But you can't be both at the same time.

[joank]

I think, as many have said, the art is to blend in. I have overdressed and called off outings because of it. However, when I hit the right mood and the presentation feels right, in I go. I have done malls and fastfood resturants as well as supermarkets and drugstores. Did I pass? Probably not but I was still recognized and treated as a lady. The best I had was in a Target store. I just had my nails done, a fresh pedicure and was dressed in red blazer , white blouse and navy skirt with red 2" heels. The sales girl and I had a nice conversation about my nails. Similar times has happened in Kolhs and Macys. (Our money is good too.)

[AllieSF]

SamanthaM,

I do not understand why a person can not only pass 100%, i.e. not be read as a male dressed as a woman or vice versa, and also be proactive if they want to be, to promote in someway that most CD's are just normal people who dress as the opposite sex. If I understood correctly what you wrote, it sounds like you see it as only black or white and do not consider the many shades and variations in between. Not all people want to be in your face pro-active, while others may not really want to pass 100% of the time. A person can be proactive in many ways and that does not mean that it has to always be while dressed up as the opposite sex. I believe that each person will be who they are most comfortable being at whatever end of the spectrum they may fall. I myself am not a proactive person when it comes to beliefs and causes. I like to just be me. Even though I consider myself more a part of the silent majority (or maybe minority), I think that I am normally a very good representative of all of us as a group and, therefore, do have a positive affect on others.

[Sammy777]

I do not understand why a person can not only pass 100%, i.e. not be read as a male dressed as a woman or vice versa, and also be proactive if they want to be

If your goal is to be taken 100% as a woman while out I would say it would be hard to keep that up while you also are speaking up to open people's minds.



If I understood correctly what you wrote, it sounds like you see it as only black or white and do not consider the many shades and variations in between.

Quite the opposite, I live and breathe in the many shades of grey in the world, lol.



Not all people want to be in your face pro-active, while others may not really want to pass 100% of the time.

Very true.
And you can easily be either of them at any given time.
But I find it hard to be both of them at the same time.

[Misty is Kindafem]

Sammy baby, I think you have been misunderstood in this thread.

She is NOT saying that there are no shades. What she's saying is most of us either want to pass as female, in which case we are basically invisible as trannies (cool with me) OR we want to flaunt our not passing as a badge of honor because dammit I am who I am and you just have to deal with it.

Those of you who think she may be missing the finer points of this argument are way off base. Just read some of her posts and you will agree that she is fully capable of discerning shades of gray.

The fact is she's right. Most of us do fall into two camps. I personally agree with the gorgeous Kelly and would love to pass (and she does) without a second thought. On the other hand, the Amazing Joni (she needs a logo) has a really good point when she says she doesn't dress for them, she dresses for her.

And then there are so many others who fall somewhere in between. Samantha knows this I assure you. Many of the girls around here have plenty of firepower between the ears so let's try and remember that before we assume otherwise.

-Misty

[Lisa Golightly]

Pass what? I just look and dress how I feel...

[Tracy_Victoria]

I think no one passes 100% of the time, but there again how many real woman have doubt cast upon them for looking a little manly. ie this works both ways. hence there is always that doubt.

Two real life experences that I've had, that that make me smile, was once I was called a "fat Cow" but some N@@ Head whilst out. He never realised he actually made my day. The other one was I went to a local TV meeting and I got asked Twice "which one was my husband!" ie they totally took me for a woman in a room full of Crossdressers. (that was a big boost to my ego)

[Tracy_Victoria]

Dee Dee seems to have it right on the money. Passing as a happy person definately works for me, perceived gender notwithstanding.:battingeyelashes::)

there are three golden rules to passing.

1, confidence

2, a good look (etc nice well fitting clothes and a wig that doesn't look like a wig)

3, A reason (why are you there, if you feel out of place you will look out of place) ie real woman don't walk round parks in the dead of night, they shop, they walk confidently and buy what they want and go about there business, and as a Crossdresser, you need to emulate that, ie be were you are, with a perpose!

[Sammy777]

Sammy baby, I think you have been misunderstood in this thread. -Misty

Thank You Misty



Pass what?

The potatoes....... Please pass them over when you're done with them. :D

[BeckiB]

Nope not at all as in passing?

yes...I know I don't do not pass at all but I really don't worry about it. I am who I am for better or worse.

[jenna_woods]

I don't think any of us pass 100% if stuided to much. but I do not care,I am enjoying my self and hurting no one,

[Joni Marie Cruz]

.On the other hand, the Amazing Joni (she needs a logo) has a really good point when she says she doesn't dress for them, she dresses for her.

The needle on my Sarcasm-o-Meter (patent pending, all rights reserved, able to detect as little as 1 ppb [part per billion] SSU [standardized sarcasm unit] at sealevel) just twitched.<g>

Hugs...Joni Mari

[Mirani]

I'll take "being treated with respect" any day - I don't stop to think "do I pass?".

When I dress for work, social or home all I do is think "do I feel right?" .. if the answer is no, I change into something else. If the answer is "yes" - I dont give a fig what anyone else is thinking.

[karynspanties]

Well first of all, I do not pass. I have been out during the daytime and never had a second look by anyone (that I noticed). I was not overly dressed. That day I just wanted to blend in. Did I pass? No, poeple just did not care that day. Now, I see alot of pictures posted here and the ladies ask "Do I pass?" and it is quite obvious that they don't and almost everyone that replies says that they do. We are men. We have male features and unless you have cosmetic surgery to remove those features, I don't care how much make-up you put on, your not going to pass. Sorry, the truth hurts sometimes. The only gurlz I have seen that can pass are the ones who started taking hormones at a very young age. Some say it's confidence. Well I have seen a few gurlz out in public. It takes a certain amount of confidence to leave the house all dolled up, but the were'nt even close to passing. I know I do not pass and I do not need to ask others if I do because I am honest with myself.
Some others in this forum need to be also.

[JoAnne Wheeler]

No - I could never really "pass" - but I don't care - I just love to be JoAnne

JoAnne Wheeler

[Kelsy]

[QUOTE=Gabrielle Hermosa;1766009]A large part of my own low self-esteem issues in life were because I found myself very unattractive. I didn't (fully) realize until much later in life that it was because I always wanted to look pretty rather than (manly) handsome. There were times when I just didn't want to face people at all because I felt so ugly (and bad about myself as such).

[QUOTE]


Gabrielle, I always found being called handsome
revolting! Like you I wanted to be pretty.

Kelsy:)

[gender_blender]

I can pass for female, I simply choose to be more original than that. I know I look great and I don't care if I pass for female. It's tough enough to pass as me, a healthy combination of both genders.

[Joni Marie Cruz]

I can pass for female, I simply choose to be more original than that. I know I look great and I don't care if I pass for female. It's tough enough to pass as me, a healthy combination of both genders.


From the picture you posted in the "Sunburn" thread, you do quite a commendable job. Keep up the good work.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[Nicki B]

You seem to have a problem with my not wanting to be a poster girl for the transgendered.So you accuse me of hiding because I am not shouting from the rooftops.

Kelly, I haven't accused you of anything - I don't know your circumstances. Would you describe yourself as 'stealth'??


If you want to crusade for crossdressers and transgendered...more power to you, but trying to put me in a trick bag because I don't isn't going to work.

I'm not trying to push you into anything (or judge you) - all I asked was which did you think is better?

And when did I ever tell anyone to shout their status from the rooftops, or push it in anyone's face? Surely just going about your business is good enough?




I live and breathe in the many shades of grey in the world, lol.

And yet you seem to be saying you can only be one, or the other..


Believe me, my mind is far from a binary mindset.

What I was saying is that you [no matter who or what you are or are trying to present as] can't have it both ways.

Either be the card carrying CD TS TV TG M O U S E and be outspoken about it or be the "passing" unnoticed women in a crowd.

But you can't be both at the same time.

Binary is only seeing two options. :strugglin


So look and act your best to be a women,
while still being looked at as a guy in dress so people are accepting??
It makes no sense to me.

I would rather be seen as a fugly girl then a "man in a dress".
Although, that is just me because I really have no desire to be seen as a man period for much longer.

I know many girls who don't pass (as born female), but who it's obvious are women on the inside - they pass as trans-women, often good-looking ones..

No one would imagine they were born female, but no one thinks of them as men, either. I hope the people who know me would describe me similarly, too..

[LA CINDY LOVE]

To be perfectly honest I don't see us being accepted as a group anytime soon. Too much division between crossdressers,TS's,gays,bi's. Our predjudice and bias shows, there doesn't seem to be a united front. Those who want it will go out and get it, those who don't or say they can't will complain about it.
Anone who has the nerve and the ambition to go for it has my support. I pass and I am accepted.. because I made it happen. Call me selfish if you want to, but i am not ashamed of my stance. I am 26 years old and I feel like I have the world by the tail. it's my turn and I am taking full advantage. I don't want to look back in 20 or 30 years and say.. I wish I would have done this or that. I''ll stand by you, but I won't try and drag you out of the closest.
WOW.......these are words that Cindy lives by,.... live for the now because tomorrow is not promise......the one thing Cindy can say about Kelly.......she can sure make you feel good about your-self.

Can Cindy Pass.........yes their are times when Cindy is out and about and getting a lot of attention from woman and men on how nice I look and how fit I am....... Cindy loves the attention and dose not say away from it..... the way I walk, look, talk, act, etc all comes together like a MBA player who is in the ZONE and that is how Cindy feel like I am in the ZONE......and when you are walking in the mall there is no time to get cold feet.

Can..... a Cd who is out and about can get read but still look good and pass to have a positive reaction to the people around them compared to a Cd who got read but look bad and did not pass have a negative reaction to the people around them.

Funny that when I am out and about in drab that people sometimes call me ma'am and been told by some friends that I look like a woman, so when I add some make-up and women clothing .........I get Cindy

Cindy goes out and about in the day all the time and I have never had anyone say or do anything bad to me, everyone has been very nice and kind to Cindy.

I feel that there are some Cd's who have game but say they can not pass.......but can pass you just have to work on your self......... I feel that there are more cd out and about who pass then we know.


LA CINDY LOVE




men are just trying to pick me up, it dose not take visual

[Sonia Greene]

It is possible to pass OK as long as we try and copy just how women dress and act......typically. Most of the time.

I believe it is integrating---i.e.talking to shop assistants and cafe assistants without too much self-consciousness that is the way forward. Including modyifying the voice.
They may spot we are not GG, but we should endeavour to be like them, and imitation--as long as not made fun of, is acceptable.

That's my revolutionary view, which I reckon is spot on.......of course I would do, wouldn't I?!!

Sonia

[kellycan27]

I think we understand eachother better now... :hugs:
kelly

[flic]

Passing for me seems to become more important in ebbs and flows. The lower my self esteem is, then the more emphasis I place on my need to pass, i guess as a method of vindication. I get really low esteem when i feel i look too masculine and as such seek confirmation of any femininity others may perceive in me. If i'm comfortable with the way I look then i tend not to need so much confirmation from others, and as such get caught on a wave of good feeling which surges me forward and into a more positive place. I'm probably influenced too easily by the reactions and opinions of others,, but it seems that's a part of my nature. Just how i feel about it!!!
flic xxx

[gennee]

I pass pretty well for the most part. I've been proposed to twice :D. If I don't pass it doesn't matter to me.

Gennee

[LA CINDY LOVE]

If, by passing, you mean the world doesn't realise you weren't born female - then how are we ever going to gain any acceptance??? People will just assume we don't exist, if they don't know we are there..
Acceptance,..acceptance,..acceptance......I hate to be the Brear of bad news but do not look for acceptance today tomorrow or next week......come to think of it do not look for acceptance next month or next year......so do not hold you breath waiting.

Acceptance is what you make it......Cindy is dose not need the acceptance of society to live the life style that I choose, when I walk out that front door dress in to society I go were I please when I please and do what I please with out the acceptance of society
.........and I look dam good doing it.

I do not see how those who pass/blend into society are stealth and are trying to hide something why can't they just be them self the same way as a gay people...are they stealth just because they do not carry a sign....are they really trying to hide something.

Nicki you said "that if you are truly comfortable with you then people can't hurt you" if that is true then why do we need society acceptance......and if the day every comes that we gain acceptance we will still want to pass and still have closet cds.........just like we have now.

LA CINDY LOVE

[5150 Girl]

Do I pass? Well, I've been told that I look pretty convincing...
Do I think I pass? No I don't, but then again, I do tend to be my own worst critic...
Do I wanna pass? With all my heart!

[Deidra Cowen]

When I really had myself in good shape, I might not have been passable but I could fool most people! Visually that is, even was at a big meatmarket type straight bar and had three guys ask me to dance. But really I was not passable due to my voice, heavy makeup and the wig, but I could sure as heck blend in!!!

Personally I think passing is tough as heck and only a small minority of CDs can do it. But it sure is a blessing to those that can pull it off...and yeap some can. Have seen it with my own eyes! :heehee:

[Terrianne Wells]

I believe most of us would love to be able to pass, just to avoid confrontations. But the reality is that most of us don't so we should not worry about what others think but what makes us complete.

[Misty is Kindafem]

The needle on my Sarcasm-o-Meter (patent pending, all rights reserved, able to detect as little as 1 ppb [part per billion] SSU [standardized sarcasm unit] at sealevel) just twitched.<g>

Hugs...Joni Mari

Cute,:) but I really do think you're amazing. You're not the only one of course, but you're definitely one of the stand outs, and in this group, that's saying something.

I think the Amazing Joni has a nice ring to it.

-Misty

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Cute,:) but I really do think you're amazing. You're not the only one of course, but you're definitely one of the stand outs, and in this group, that's saying something.

I think the Amazing Joni has a nice ring to it.

-Misty

Thank you, Misty. That is very, very sweet, but please don't say things like that. I mean, I appreciate it, I do, but I have this really, really bad reflexive push-away-a-compliment syndrome. It's like anything complimentary can't really be meant for me, it makes me uncomfortable and I know that's not what you meant at all. And, no, I am not fishing for more. Honest.

Wanna be friends, Misty? You're pretty damned amazing yourself.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[kathrynjanos]

Some think they pass and look awful. Some don't think they pass and look great! Beauty, eye of the beholder, all that jazz, that just doesn't ring true. I saw TWO separate women today at the airport that I could've SWORN were CD, or possibly TS, but I just couldn't be sure. Other features were what set my mind wondering, which is why I even noticed, but their faces made it hard to know. They were both at least 50s though.

[dawnmarrie1961]

The only one that can "PASS" as me is ME! Am I trying to "pass" as a male or female? Neither. I know who & what I am so weather or not it is recognized by the general public is not my problem. It's theirs. I am not trying to fool or trick anyone in believing I am someone I am not. It's hard enough just being yourself!

[DanaR]

My wife and I argue about this all of the time. She will see someone and say it is a guy and I'll look and say no. There are some things that will give it away, but then there are times that it is hard to tell.

I try not to look at people that close, because it really doesn't matter.

[Joni Marie Cruz]

My wife and I argue about this all of the time. She will see someone and say it is a guy and I'll look and say no. There are some things that will give it away, but then there are times that it is hard to tell.

I try not to look at people that close, because it really doesn't matter.

Hi Dana-

<lol> My wife and I play the same game, and of course it's not meant to be mean at all. We live in the Seattle area and downtown is a totally target rich environment for tgirls, so there's lots of opportunities. I think I'm pretty good at it, but lots of times it's just a tossup. Kind of what it's all about in a way, isn't it? At least to me.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[Sarah Doepner]

Most of the time people are more interested in not stepping in dog mess than they are in people watching. I do really well in that environment. The best I can hope for is to get far enough past the person asking "was that a man?" that they are afraid to check or it's too late to see.

My target, like many others, has three parts; 1- Do the best I can, 2-Enjoy myself, and 3-Blend well enough so as to not call unwanted attention to myself. On that third one, I don't mind attention if it's honest and not intended to be confrontational or abusive.

[Misty is Kindafem]

You're pretty damned amazing yourself.

Hugs...Joni Mari

Oh stop!

....okay now you can go again.

-Misty

[Nicki B]

Acceptance,..acceptance,..acceptance......I hate to be the Brear of bad news but do not look for acceptance today tomorrow or next week......come to think of it do not look for acceptance next month or next year......so do not hold you breath waiting.it......

:strugglin

I find it, often, now?


Nicki you said "that if you are truly comfortable with you then people can't hurt you" if that is true then why do we need society acceptance......

Because not everyone is that comfortable, surely?

[Claire Cook]

Perhaps we worry about this too much. Most of the time I get "ma'am'ed", sometimes I get "sir-red" -- but you know what? I don't really care. I think I wear my clothes well and if people think that I'm a guy who wears women's clothes well, so much the better.

[Sally24]

Acceptance,..acceptance,..acceptance......I hate to be the Bearer of bad news but do not look for acceptance today tomorrow or next week......come to think of it do not look for acceptance next month or next year......so do not hold you breath waiting.

I also could not disagree with you more. Most people that take the time to notice give a positive reaction. Some guys have a harder time with it, but I think that will change with us being more and more visible. In all my times out and about over the last 4 years I have had maybe 4 or 5 people actually say something negative.

And passing or stealth is not hiding in my opinion. Just the opposite in fact. Instead of lying and trying to pass as your average guy I am being myself. I do think we should all try to help society change but that does not mean outing yourself to everyone you meet!

[Charlotte Sometimes]

I believe passing is simply in your head, I have been out to events with other CD/TGs and have found others to be exceptional in their mannerisms and appearance. Under "normal" circumstances I would have never know them to be anything other than what they were presenting. People in general don't often inspect other people around them looking for traces of manliness unless they have some idea that there may be CD/TGs there. I have passed, I have been read, and I don't care. Passing is acting and dressing appropriate to the circumstance, Act like a woman and you'll be treated like a woman!

[Kate Simmons]

Well, a lot of interesting responses. One of my purposes for the OP was to stimulate thinking RE the purpose for getting ready and going out to begin with. It seems that the "passing" in itself is not all that important to many anyway as they are more interested in just being themselves, which to me seems to be the way to go really. For example, a woman going out does not concern herself with being a woman because that is understood and evident so to speak. She is more concerned with being herself and enjoying the experience.

The idea of being one's self is the key component here. If we are self confident and comfortable, very little negativism will shake us, as a woman might expect some"critique" on appearance but does not overly concern herself about it for the most part and instead concentrates on being the best person she can possibly be. Who we are rather than what we are is bore out in life experiences.:)

[Nicki B]

Well, a lot of interesting responses.)

Once again, we don't seem able to agree on what we all mean by passing - one of the reason it causes so many disagreements?


And passing or stealth is not hiding in my opinion. Just the opposite in fact.


I pass because I know who I am. I am comfortable in my skin and people I interact with treat me that way. I am a transgendered woman and am perfectly content to be treated that way.


I believe passing is simply in your head,
...
Passing is acting and dressing appropriate to the circumstance, Act like a woman and you'll be treated like a woman!

As I pointed out, before....

[LA CINDY LOVE]

I also could not disagree with you more. Most people that take the time to notice give a positive reaction. Some guys have a harder time with it, but I think that will change with us being more and more visible. In all my times out and about over the last 4 years I have had maybe 4 or 5 people actually say something negative.

And passing or stealth is not hiding in my opinion. Just the opposite in fact. Instead of lying and trying to pass as your average guy I am being myself. I do think we should all try to help society change but that does not mean outing yourself to everyone you meet!

When people take the time to notice you and give you a positive reaction they do it because you LOOK GOOD.....passing is a form of a acceptance, do you feel that you would get a positive reaction if you LOOK like a MAN in a dress. and to have only a few people say something negative to you in 4yrs tells me you have acceptance.........acceptance is what you make it.

I do agree with you that passing or stealth is not hiding.



The trouble with going 'stealth' is that it's hiding - it implies you're ashamed/afraid of your past and of being 'outed'. Whereas if you're truly comfortable with who you are, then people can't hurt you?

So when the SA tells me have a good day ma'am I should correct her for acceptance, I not sure what you are trying to say.



The way I see it is, you can't have it both ways.
Either you look and act your best to be a women.
Or you try to educate people around you basically making them aware you are not a women just so they know you are out there in the world.

So look and act your best to be a women,
while still being looked at as a guy in dress so people are accepting??
It makes no sense to me.

I would rather be seen as a fugly girl then a "man in a dress".
Although, that is just me because I really have no desire to be seen as a man period for much longer.

Very well said Samantha.

LA CINDY LOVE

[Nicki B]

So when the SA tells me have a good day ma'am I should correct her for acceptance, I not sure what you are trying to say.

Cindy, do you think she mistook you for someone born female? :strugglin

If possibly not, it already sounds exactly like acceptance, to me..

[msginaadoll]

I dont think I pass. However I have begun to get out and about more often and have been treated with respect. I have been refered to as Maam by sales associates, other customers, etc. No one has run screaming from my presence or called me names. Just have been treated like any other female or maybe male customer.