How would you play it?

[Lorileah]

Thanks to Ray Bradbury, Frank Herbert, George Orwell and H.G. Wells you have received a gift. You can travel back in time to June 21st 1969, New York City, Greenwich Village. One week before Stonewall. You have available all the knowledge you have now plus a PC that you can look things up from today. You know it's going to happen and you can choose to change history. You are who you are. If you are an out and about TG, you will be in that time also. If you are closeted, you will be closeted. We will, for now forget the major space time continuum or butterfly effect. You will only be concerned with the immediate time frame around 1969. (assume if you play you can also invest in MS in the 80's and make millions later).

There are 4 scenarios you can choose. Or you if you see a different way to go, tell me your thoughts.

1. You do nothing. It all goes down just as it did that night. People are beaten and arrested. Riots break out.

2. You don't interfere but you go to see what happens. You may go in drab or dressed. What you wear can change how things go for you specifically or the whole thing in general.

3. You make friends with the clientele at the bar and you warn them what will happen. They take your word and the night of the raid the police find three people there. None are TG and none are participating in any illegal activity (other than the bar is an unlicensed bar).

4. You decide that you will be there dressed in drag and become part of this historical event. You become an icon for the TG community in years to come. Your input may change how TG's are seen in the future and your knowledge and input may make life better for the whole community. These are all "may" and things could go totally opposite.

Remember, you know how the community is treated in 2009. You know what rights we have now. You know how we are viewed now. Your actions can change that in 1969.

How would you play it?

[Sharon]

Whatever choice I would make, that would mean I would be 94-years old in 2009!!!! :eek: Despite all my fame, all my gazillions of dollars, I would still be 94-fecking years old!!!!! :eek: :eek:

Oh, and I would like to think that I would definitely involve myself. :)

[Sam-antha]

Would you believe ? I had to look it up. Now that I have been reminded, I will be back to find out what I did then.
Certainly involved. ~Samm

[Mistybtm]

3. You make friends with the clientele at the bar and you warn them what will happen. They take your word and the night of the raid the police find three people there. None are TG and none are participating in any illegal activity (other than the bar is an unlicensed bar).

this is my choice :D

[Lorileah]

:error: Dang Sharon, I hadn't considered how old we would be now. :) Going to have to tweak that machine so you can return here at you current age but looking tanned and refreshed from your 40 year vacation

[2B Natasha]

You decide that you will be there dressed in drag and become part of this historical event. You become an icon for the TG community in years to come. Your input may change how TG's are seen in the future and your knowledge and input may make life better for the whole community.

I'll chose number 4. I have never been one to sit on the sidelines and wait with other issues so why should this one be any different. Let's see. I would be 63 now, but so what. One day I'll be 103 anyway so 63 is just a number on the way there.

[TGMarla]

I go back, dressed as Avenger Woman. I am wearing a vintage Susan Page dress, circa 1984, that hasn't been invented yet, causing a very pleased murmer among the clientele in the bar. I feign having to go and use the sandbox, and pull a Sony camcorder from my Coach leather purse (which also caused quite a stir), and mount it in a corner of the bar. All events from that night are taped. I tip off all the patrons of the bar as to the events that are about to unfold. Not one of them bats an eyelash. And everyone is ready when the place gets raided. Marked bills are stuffed into the tills, ready to be passed to the unsuspecting police department. Some of the drag queens sharpen their high heels. Some of the very butch ladies present that evening polish their brass knuckles. Then we wait.

The following morning's headline banner loudly decries the blatant bigotry and the whole payola scheme involving the police department. Below the headlines is a still taken from the camcorder clearly showing the payoff scheme. Smaller photos in a full-page spread on the back page show the patrons of the bar being harassed and bullied into the paddy wagons. The news has clips from the footage, and the media is ablaze with the video showing the police department violently engaging the patrons, all completely unprovoked. The video does not show just who threw the first bottle that clocked one cop in the side of the head. But the public, now having seen it all on tape, is entirely sympathetic to the cause of the gay and transgender community. Heads roll at the police department, as the trail of marked money leads all the way up to the commissioner's offices.

Upon my arrival back in 2009, remarkably not a day older, I find the public opinion of gay and transgendered persons in the United States is completely different. People have abandoned bigotry, and transgendered people are widely considered to be more well-rounded, self-aware people. Many hold positions of great prestige in both the public and the private sectors.

Me? I invested ten dollars in Sony stock way back in 1969. When word leaked that Sony had such amazing gadgets, and was instrumental in changing history, their stock soared, and I became a millionaire several times over. I'd now like to buy a round of drinks and a makeover for every one of you here. :D

[AliciaWeb]

Can I take a few AK47s to give the girls the edge?

[MonikaW]

I would choose number 1. Stonewall is important because it was the event that sparked the gay rights movement. Unfortunately people did get hurt, but without that event the community would not have gotten galvanized. Who knows where the TG community would be if Stonewall did not happen. Though it is a painful choice knowing what is about to happen, the aftermath is too important to the community. I know where we stand today, and I would not want to jeopordize the progress made thus far. We still have a long way to go, but it is much better than 40 years ago.

[Jenny Brown]

One week before Stonewall
Stonewall Jackson? Yes, he was killed on May 10, 1863.
Never heard of this other Stonewall, and don't care.

[Miranda09]

OK...the only way I can hope to make a change on today's culture would be to choose number 4. Scenario 1 I'm just an observer and can't change anything. Number 2, I might affect my personal timeline, but the historical timeline will be unchanged. Scenario 3 won't play out because in reality, history cannot be changed that easily. The people in the bar will likely laugh at you at go ahead with demonstration anyway. At least in number 4, I have a direct input into history and perhaps how things will change by 2009. I will be there totally enfemme, looking like a woman, but not in a drag queen sense. The more professional I look, the more people, and the press, will take me seriously. OH BTW....I don't age at all and am still my current age throughput this historical journey. People can't belive I haven't aged and I become an icon for the fountain of youth for the TG community and the world!!! How's that for sci-fi??? :)

[TGMarla]

Stonewall Jackson? Yes, he was killed on May 10, 1863.
Never heard of this other Stonewall, and don't care.
Further proof of the choice we all have in this life: To keep quiet and allow others to assume you're a fool, or open the mouth and prove it.

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Most of the time I tend to be kind of flippant, it's my default mode, but I'm going to set it aside, at least a little.

Personally, I would opt for choice number four. The Stonewall Riots were a seminal and defining moment in the Gay Rights Movement, it was the first time that a bunch of fags and fairies and especially a bunch of drag queens fought back against the institutionalized forces of repression and actually kicked police ass. There were all sorts of movements and general unrest and civil disobedience in the air and the time was right. If not at the Stonewall Inn, then probably somewhere else, but it happened there and then. It would have been so cool to have been a part of it, to be in that kick-line mocking the cops.

Yes, we have miles and miles to go as TG people. The gays and lesbians have moved much further along in terms of social acceptance than CDs have, at least that's how I see it. For most of us it would be easier to come out to family and friends and at work as gay than as a CD. There have been lots and lots of threads about whether we should even be a part of the LGBT movement or not, in some ways we are just a poor stepchild to them. But this thread isn't about that.

I so hope the paper gets my good side in the morning edition.

Hugs...Joni Mari


Further proof of the choice we all have in this life: To keep quiet and allow others to assume you're a fool, or open the mouth and prove it.

Hey, what can ya do, huh? Sometimes you just have to shake your head and walk off.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[Billijo49504]

Sorry, but in June of 1969, I was still property of Uncle Sam in S.E. Aisia. I had moreimportant things to worry about, like staying alive..:2c:...BJ

[Jenny Brown]

Further proof of the choice we all have in this life: To keep quiet and allow others to assume you're a fool, or open the mouth and prove it.
yup...so there you have it. guilty as charged.
shoulda, coulda, woulda, it simply doesn't matter.

[Lorileah]

Great input so far. I knew my sisters would come through. :)



Originally Posted by Jenny Brown
Stonewall Jackson? Yes, he was killed on May 10, 1863.
Never heard of this other Stonewall, and don't care.

That is one reason I posted this. So maybe someone who has not heard of Stonewall might learn how it has effected us. It was the spark that ignited the US gay rights movement, and now I thing we as TG's need to start pushing forward to catch up with our gay and lesbian friends. As far as Stonewall Jackson goes, all I can say is it was friendly fire. Maybe he should have been a little more cognizant. When we become complacent, things like that happen. Methinks it was a sarcastic reply anyway :)

Billiejo. Thanks for what you did over there. You can never get enough praise and that's why we get to post things like we do here. Maybe we can use this time machine to change that too.

[Jenny Brown]

That is one reason I posted this. So maybe someone who has not heard of Stonewall might learn how it has effected us. It was the spark that ignited the US gay rights movement, and now I thing we as TG's need to start pushing forward to catch up with our gay and lesbian friends.
How it has effected "us" ?
I'm not gay, so I don't fall into the "us" category.
If this is one of those "rally the troops" TG activist things, well, good luck with that.

[Diane Elizabeth]

The ripple effect would occur if anything from that night was changed. Who knows where that would lead to- Even shange who was there and then it becomes a nonentity in the history books and who do the GLBT rally around to be united. Are rights could have been pushed back another 20 years. So for us to be as free as we are today the events cannot be altered. Dylen

[Lorileah]

How it has effected "us" ?
I'm not gay, so I don't fall into the "us" category.
If this is one of those "rally the troops" TG activist things, well, good luck with that.

Pogo said "we has met the enemy and they is us" Assuming you are a southerner, you know Pogo :)

Stonewall was not just gay. The major players in the raid were drag queens and crossdressers who frequented the bar. Prior to that it was illegal for you to be in public dressed as a woman. So yes it is us. The reason that the gays and lesbians have made such great inroads is they continued to fight for what they believed in. Many CD's just went back to the closet and hid. So yes it is a rally the troops post.

Another old saying. "if'n you ain't fer us youse again us"

[Joni Marie Cruz]

yup...so there you have it. guilty as charged.
shoulda, coulda, woulda, it simply doesn't matter.

"Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

-George Santayana, 1863-1952

Yes, yes. I know. Doesn't matter either. It's okay, bliss and all that.

-Joni Mari

[danacd50]

Very interesting choices you have offered..... The Stonewall Inn was originally targeted because of the "transvestite" customer base, but the aftermath is seen as the creation of the gay rights movement. Given my voyeurist nature I would probably opt for #2. I would be most interested in how a raid on my sisters evolved into the a wholly gay revolution. Either way it would have been a better option, like Billijo, I was property of the U. S. Army and misplaced in Viet Nam at the time........ I would have rather been in a more peaceful riot in New York City.

[Kate Simmons]

Most of us are aware of how time paradoxes work my friend. There are enough stories about people going back to prevent the Titanic disaster only to find it is immutable like the Kennedy assasination( or the death of Uncle Ben or Bucky). The problem is even if we did succeed in altering the outcome we would not know it as memory of what we went to change and why would be erased. The time butterfly flaps it wings in many directions Hon.:)

[Lorileah]

aw Arianna, here's the fun. With the power vested in me I hereby suspend that law of physics. :)

But truthfully, that is sort of the reason for this thread. How would things have changed IF we could redo it. Better? worse? The same? Are things the way they are no matter what we do?

Ow, that made my head hurt. Where's that tavernus place when you need it?

[Jenny Brown]

But truthfully, that is sort of the reason for this thread. How would things have changed IF we could redo it. Better? worse? The same? Are things the way they are no matter what we do?

There you go with that "we" stuff again. Do you have a mouse in your pocket?:doh:

[Kate Simmons]

Okay, sounds good Hon. In any case the laws of the multiverse allow for this as every possible action has multiple outcomes based on choice, so they do actually exist somewhere. Go for it my friends and let us know how you would make things different.:)

[Miranda09]

Most of us are aware of how time paradoxes work my friend. There are enough stories about people going back to prevent the Titanic disaster only to find it is immutable like the Kennedy assasination( or the death of Uncle Ben or Bucky). The problem is even if we did succeed in altering the outcome we would not know it as memory of what we went to change and why would be erased. The time butterfly flaps it wings in many directions Hon.:)

Remember, Sci-fi knows no bounds. That's the fun of it. It stimulates the imagination with what if's, not necessarily actually can! Anything is possible, including preventing the Titanic from sinking or stopping the assassination of JFK, or influencing what happened in 1969. Doesn't mean it can be altered, but it might be. :)

[Aubrey Green]

I would have to do #3. Nobody would want to see that again. Then I would run out and buy tickets to Woodstock and then put 10 grand down on the Mets to win the World Series. :daydreaming:

[Deidra Cowen]

Most the good time travel stuff I have read very strongly sends the message not to mess with the past and generally even when you try it does no good. Hey you warn everyone and no one is at the bar that night. Well the cops just wait and come back another night! You know the drill from the novels.

By the way I just read 'Replay' by Ken Grimwood...wow what a great novel and it uses this very theme.

So...I would go with number 1 being a big chicken. Let that huge event happen which actually turned out well for the GLBT community in the long run.

[docrobbysherry]

Option #5, But, first:
If u went to the bar, dressed or not, they'd have thot u were looney tunes! :brolleyes:
Go to the cops? Hah! They'd beat u up, then LOCK u up!:doh:

So, option #5:

Go, dressed up to the 9's. Take all the latest 2009 items u can carry, then walk into the nearby newspaper office. Tell them u were a time traveler from the future. Show them your "fantastic" gear to prove it, and a printed recap of the event yet to transpire. Tell them u were there to warn them of that horrible event, that would happen that very evening. (Maybe they would even send a reporter to cover it, live!):eek:

Finally, before returning to the future, u grant them an in depth interview, complete with photos. In the interview, u explain how in the future, the way you're dressed is the NORM! U tell them how our laws protect gay, CD, TG/TS individuals, etc. etc. And what that all means. That all members of 2009 society r accepted by all. Regardless of race, color, sex, sexual orientation, looks, and style of clothing.
( Ok, so u embelish a bit.):o

Maybe it helps, and maybe not! But, as soon as u return to 2009, you'd know!:D

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Option #5, But, first:
If u went to the bar, dressed or not, they'd have thot u were looney tunes! :brolleyes:
Go to the cops? Hah! They'd beat u up, then LOCK u up!:doh:

So, option #5:

Go, dressed up to the 9's. Take all the latest 2009 items u can carry, then walk into the nearby newspaper office. Tell them u were a time traveler from the future. Show them your "fantastic" gear to prove it, and a printed recap of the event yet to transpire. Tell them u were there to warn them of that horrible event, that would happen that very evening. (Maybe they would even send a reporter to cover it, live!):eek:

Finally, before returning to the future, u grant them an in depth interview, complete with photos. In the interview, u explain how in the future, the way you're dressed is the NORM! U tell them how our laws protect gay, CD, TG/TS individuals, etc. etc. And what that all means. That all members of 2009 society r accepted by all. Regardless of race, color, sex, sexual orientation, looks, and style of clothing.
( Ok, so u embelish a bit.):o

Maybe it helps, and maybe not! But, as soon as u return to 2009, you'd know!:D

Freekin awesome, Doc. Way great alternative option.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[Lorileah]

In the interview, u explain how in the future, the way you're dressed is the NORM! U tell them how our laws protect gay, CD, TG/TS individuals, etc. etc. And what that all means. That all members of 2009 society r accepted by all. Regardless of race, color, sex, sexual orientation, looks, and style of clothing.
( Ok, so u embelish a bit.):o

Maybe it helps, and maybe not! But, as soon as u return to 2009, you'd know!:D

I love it!

[Niya W]

I would see Compton cafeteria. Predates stone wall.


I would love to go to finocio.

the dedication plaque of Compton cafeteria Riot. grumbles I was at work when they did it .

[kellycan27]

Further proof of the choice we all have in this life: To keep quiet and allow others to assume you're a fool, or open the mouth and prove it.

I love you! :heehee:

[Lorileah]

Gives Niya props :) But I cannot reset the time machine. It takes three days of work and a case of twinkies for fuel :)

[Sammy777]

:yt: <---- no longer makes sense now. :(




Never heard of this Stonewall, and don't care.

I'm sure 99% here will disagree with me :doh:


Not even sure how to take this post.:doh:


Do you have a mouse in your pocket?


yup...so there you have it. guilty as charged.
shoulda, coulda, woulda, it simply doesn't matter.

I don't fall into the "us" category.
If this is one of those TG things, well, good luck with that.

The sad part is...this is what'll be remembered for...


Thanks for proving my point.:heehee:

:brolleyes:

Oh, and I will option #2 for 500.00 Alex.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Never heard of this other Stonewall, and don't care.

Stonewall? How the heck could you not know about one of THE seminal events in the GLBT community. It's mentioned all the time in the media, especially during June which is "Pride month" because the Stonewall riots happened in June.


How it has effected "us" ?
I'm not gay, so I don't fall into the "us" category.

There were transfolk at Stonewall, and on the front lines too. And though there has been friction between the G and the L and the B and the T at times, we are allies. Just because you're not gay doesn't mean you can't support gay rights.


If this is one of those "rally the troops" TG activist things, well, good luck with that.

Why must you always be so negative, considering that Stonewall was a rallying point. One of the reasons 13 states have legal protections in place for TG folks is because Stonewall helped get the GLBT community going in getting them.

This thread itself isn't activism it's just a fun question about what one might do if sent back in time to Stonewall. Personally I'd probably go with option #1, if I was afraid of messing up the time-space continuum, or #4.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

[GypsyKaren]

Stop the bickering now.

Karen

[Lorileah]

yes ma-am

[Lorileah]

Thanks to all who played along. I wanted a discussion with thought and consideration plus getting people to at least remember the roots of where we are. If it didn't happen June 27th 1969, it would have soon after. It was the time and place for changes in many aspects of our lives. That decade scared the heck out of the status quo. The majority of those changes have been for the positive in our country.

Personally I love the decades of the 30's and 40's but I have a very romantic view of those times. They were not good times at all for most people, War, bigotry, fear, economic crisis, unemployment, drought. We want to remember the good times, the music, the fashions, the escape. We tend to repress the bad. But we have to be reminded otherwise we will have war, bigotry, economic crisis, unemployment all over again.

As Veronica said, this was to be a fun question that gets you thinking. I hope that a few people who didn't post but who read this did just that. I do appreciate EVERYONE'S views on this. If we all agreed it would be a boring world now. I look forward to thoughts that will follow also.

I never answered my own question. :)

1 is the logical answer. It played out as it did and we are where we are. I would like to think, if I were in the area, I would have been on the front lines so my answer is I would have my butt on a bar stool knowing it was going to be a heck of a ride that night.

[Niya W]

Gives Niya props :) But I cannot reset the time machine. It takes three days of work and a case of twinkies for fuel :)

Has a pallet full of twinkies. Clones Lorileah. Times three .

oops I never said what I'd do. 4. One I have met a few girls from the Compton cafeteria. Two it changed one police offiers view of trans girls. He latter worked with the SF police dept tom improve relations with trans folks . Unfortunately he was ran out of the police dept .

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Stop the bickering now.

Karen

Yes'm.


If it didn't happen June 27th 1969, it would have soon after. It was the time and place for changes in many aspects of our lives. That decade scared the heck out of the status quo. The majority of those changes have been for the positive in our country.

:iagree:


As Veronica said, this was to be a fun question that gets you thinking.

The post did get me thinking, and thanks for posting the question.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

[Barbara918]

Scenario 3 comes closest, but anyone who's watched the Twilight Zone knows that time-travelers who go back to warn people about something are never believed.

[Sammy777]

Stop the bickering now.

Karen

Sorry........ :cute:

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Stop the bickering now.

Karen

Okay. Me, too. I was in on it, too. But only a little. Uhh...do I still get to get a spanking? Just asking.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[Deb The Brunette]

well on the way back from saving the Titanic I'd slip into my nicest lingerie, place a rose between my teeth and then bonk the entire police dept ..as a sort of puplic relations exercise of course.... which will make them forget the whole violence thing,


I'm just a naughty girl lol :D




.


Uhh...do I still get to get a spanking? Just asking.

Hugs...Joni Mari


I'd do it (if yer dare me)


.

[Lorileah]

I'd slip into my nicest lingerie, place a rose between my teeth and then bonk the entire police dept ..as a sort of puplic relations exercise of course....
.

Have you seen the pictures of those guys? Maybe grab a drink or two at the "Inn" before you do that :)

[Deb The Brunette]

Have you seen the pictures of those guys? Maybe grab a drink or two at the "Inn" before you do that :)


:drink::drink::drink:

Forget the rose then, I'll have to bring a blindfold I guess :doh:




.

[Nicki B]

You can travel back in time to June 21st 1969, New York City, Greenwich Village. One week before Stonewall. You have available all the knowledge you have now plus a PC that you can look things up from today. You know it's going to happen and you can choose to change history. You are who you are. If you are an out and about TG, you will be in that time also. If you are closeted, you will be closeted. We will, for now forget the major space time continuum or butterfly effect. You will only be concerned with the immediate time frame around 1969. (assume if you play you can also invest in MS in the 80's and make millions later).

There are 4 scenarios you can choose. Or you if you see a different way to go, tell me your thoughts.

From today's Times (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article6556244.ece). (That's The Times. The first one.. ;))

"It's not about gay rights. It's about human rights."

So #1, then..

[TxKimberly]

I read a LOT of SciFi - no exagerating here, I have hundreds of books stacked around the house. Based on the things "learned" from reading so much SciFi regarding time travel, I'd be inclined to leave it alone.
Those people acheived soemthing - they got the nations attention. To interfear or alter things would risk "undoing" their acheivement. If you stop it from happening, no progress was made. If you get involved, you risk changing the outcome so that nothing worth the while is achieved. As far as spectating, I don't think so. I'd be awful mad at myself if I got killed doing something as stupid as intentionaly going someplace that I know a riot is abut to break out in.