If we are as common as Gays and Lesbians...

[battybattybats]

Discussions of numbers of our community are sketchy, but quite a few estimates have ranged from 6% to 10% of the population. That makes us as or even more numerous than Gisgender Lesbians and Gays!

If thats the case and many here complain that Gays have more social acceptance, and indeed that acceptance is growing as the latest Australian poll puts support for same-sex marriage (an issue that effects married TSs too as in Australia if you transition your forced to divorce to get legal recognition) as having increased to almost 60% of general population and 75% of young people, then shouldn't we look at what they have been doing that most of our community has not been doing and finding ways to help our own TG community?

So then, what is it that Gays and Lesbians have been doing that we have not? What have they been doing more than we have been? How can we change that?

[Seamus_Jameson]

Made themselves very unpopular, I guess. Remember, back in the good old days, folk got arrested and beat up for being gay--or least, apearing gay. But they kept showing up and getting out.

Also, particular sets of circumstances helped them out. I mean, what with the war ending and all these veterans coming back into the country. They were social misfits and the gay scene was one of the communities that actually welcomed them.

I guess we've gotta just keep getting out there in the public view. Pushing the envelope. I suppose one of the reasons is that we lack a pride movement. So much shame is attached to our community that it's hard for members to say, "This is me, this is what I am/what I do. Get used to it!"

[Miranda-E]

There are lots of events and actions through history, but the one thing that turned the tide was the idea that its ok to be who we are and a willingness to fight those that would not let us live our lives as members of society.

[vikki2020]

Right. It's a process, although a slow process.We keep pounding on the wall, and eventually it weakens and falls.I see more and more positive portrayals in the media, and that certainly helps.Little things- here in Chicago, "Diva Nights" and similar parties at local bars designed to attract our business are very popular, and promoted in mainstream media.Every little bit helps,and every step gets us closer!

[Kimmie]

Because many of us have good lives outside of femme, and we are not jumping to be politically active. In this recession, some of us are living day to day, and social issues are secondary to economic survival. Hence we'd like the idiots in Washington to focus exclusively on fixing the damn economy and creating employment opportunities for us. Then worry about other things.

Also, CDing with your girlfriends can be fun and a way to relieve stress, so is watching a ball game with your buddies at a bar. Politics is a chore and a cause of stress.

There I answered your question. Do something unexpected, and not be so eager to argue. I have never once made a friend or converted a person's beliefs through insults or by aggressively trying to prove them wrong.

[battybattybats]

In this recession, some of us are living day to day, and social issues are secondary to economic survival.

Yes but the Gays are fighting to protect their jobs but also OURS too!
http://www.bilerico.com/2009/06/barney_frank_reintroduced_the_enda_now_l.php

In this recession this bill may very well mean economic survival!

With the same or even less numbers than us they have been winning battles on our behalf with virtually no help, support, thanks or acknowledgement. Like decriminalising crossdressing around the world.

[Joanne f]

They have the advantage of all being basically the same , in that if you are gay or lesbian then that is how the general public will see you so they know they are all fighting for the same thing .
On the other hand what most TGs strive for is the main thing that go`s against them as a group " the visual effect ".
The more visually perfect that a TG becomes the less they want to be seen with the ones that are not so visually passable.
TGs on the most part do not want to be noticed so you have this higher arkey type of thing going on , like if i am higher up on the TG scale than you i do not want to mix with you , it is like a competition a bit like in the working environment , ( i have gone up to management so i do not want to mix with shop floor workers), and until this line of thought can be broken there is little chance of all TG groups sticking together.
And of course there are many sub groups within the TG title which spreads the unlikeyness of full unity even further.
Don't forget that old saying " United we stand and Divided we fall "
Now this is one instance that i would love you all to tell me that i am wrong :)

[deja true]

...
With the same or even less numbers than us they have been winning battles on our behalf with virtually no help, support, thanks or acknowledgement.

Um...I don't think that's necessarily true, batty. Even deeply closeted het trans folks have contributed monetarily to Gay rights campaigns...

And our social support in conversations with friends and in the workplace and in supporting gay owned businesses and establishments has helped them (and us tangentially!).

Just 'cos a large number of het folks don't wear political buttons or t-shirts proclaiming our support doesn't mean we ain't been doin' it on the down low, stealth style. (Heck, I've chosen a lawyer to do some work for me specifically because she was seen as gay ... and prolly a closeted FtM!)

Our help, whether vociferously or clandestinely, has helped and is helping many disadvantaged groups. We got the numbers, we just don't got (or look for) the publicity. You know why!

I'm proud to be a fifth columnist. Don't need the acknowledgement. It's a karma thing!

;)

[Marisa_M]

I agree with Joanna's post.

And I can add that if most of us for different reasons need to live a secret feminine life it is impossible to join strong and active organizations to fight for our rights and needs.

But times are changing. Those of us who lived at the pre-Internet era know very well how isolated, lonely and also guilty was our life.

Now we have Forums, blogs. photo sites and lots of different places to express ourselves and share everything we want with people with similar interests.

I'm quite sure the WWW is a powerful tool to help us built a better future.

[battybattybats]

They have the advantage of all being basically the same , in that if you are gay or lesbian then that is how the general public will see you so they know they are all fighting for the same thing .

The GLB community is not nearly so neat. There are divides on race, the straight-acting gays look down on the camp and the queens these days, Bisexuals and lesbians are still not given the same level of respect or their issues considered as important.

Yet despite that they have made more progress than we have.


And of course there are many sub groups within the TG title which spreads the unlikeyness of full unity even further.
Don't forget that old saying " United we stand and Divided we fall "
Now this is one instance that i would love you all to tell me that i am wrong :)

Sure :) the GLB community has never been totally unified. It just got enough people active that it made change. And Women and blacks and other civil-rights groups also had big subgroup issues. Mostly these reduced as self-acceptance grew reducing the effect called Horizontal Hostility. After that the biggest threat is the 'throwing under the bus' where the big group at the last minute betrays the smaller 'less acceptable' ones to guarantee their own acceptance. But CDs would be the largest group so we'd just have to not do that to the rest!


Um...I don't think that's necessarily true, batty. Even deeply closeted het trans folks have contributed monetarily to Gay rights campaigns...

I know a few have, but i doubt it's anywhere in the same order as those in the GLB community or our community would be regularly approached for fundraising and would get more support for our issues.


We got the numbers, we just don't got (or look for) the publicity. You know why!

I'm proud to be a fifth columnist. Don't need the acknowledgement.

But to get much sway, to ensure politicians vote for TG rights issues and dont get swayed by the not-my-shower brigade and other hate-groups we need them to know we have that power. And it forms a bridge to self-acceptance for others in the community so they don't feel isolated alone and powerless if they see we have the capacity to stand up.

It's of course harder in some countries and regions of countries than others. But we need some, just like the CD riots of Compton and Stonewall lead to San Francisco developing an out community and a public presence of political power.

[docrobbysherry]

there weren't so many "pervy, child molesting CDs" out there!:doh:

Now, if we could remove those thots COMPLETELY from the public consciousness, CDing mite become less stimatized, quite quickly!:)

[linnea]

I agree with Joanna's post.

And I can add that if most of us for different reasons need to live a secret feminine life it is impossible to join strong and active organizations to fight for our rights and needs.

But times are changing. Those of us who lived at the pre-Internet era know very well how isolated, lonely and also guilty was our life.

Now we have Forums, blogs. photo sites and lots of different places to express ourselves and share everything we want with people with similar interests.

I'm quite sure the WWW is a powerful tool to help us built a better future.


I think that this is a very valid observation. I also think that for those of us leading a "double" life--not 24/7 and in the open--our own behavior works against us. First, we risk a lot by speaking up and out, and second, we can appear to some people to be hiding something, perhaps something socially dangerous, behind our femme appearances.
I do think that things will get better, i.e., the world will gradually become more and more accepting as it already is in some parts of the US and some parts of the rest of the world.

[JulieK1980]

Simply because so many of us hide in the closet, and can still live a forfilling life, we simply have never organized into a group. Its estimated that we are about 1 in 10 of the population which means that about 30,000,000 of us exist in the U.S. However we are NOT organized as a group, and most attempts to do so have failed to date.

It is however a poor generalization to say that none of us help the GLBT community, many TG people do! Heck I support them myself, and even those of us that don't openly do so, still give support by being themselves, just by being closeted and posting on here, helps to send our messages to the populace.

We are a disjointed group that is years away from unifying, and these small steps that many take, and the very large support from the GLBT community will ultimately show its results.

[Sheila]

So then, what is it that Gays and Lesbians have been doing that we have not? What have they been doing more than we have been? How can we change that?

By being more visible in the community, by not hiding in our closets, by not pretending to be anything other than who we are ........ simple really :)

[Sherry-Stephanie]

Political Actitvism...

[AmandaM]

By being more visible in the community, by not hiding in our closets, by not pretending to be anything other than who we are ........ simple really :)

As I drive onto the military base to my job, past the armed Marines, I'll think about what the reaction would be if I was wearing a sundress with a flower in my hair. Then, as I move my family into a cardboard box, they'll like it cause I can finally be me. Not so simple.

[Crystal Rose]

As I drive onto the military base to my job, past the armed Marines, I'll think about what the reaction would be if I was wearing a sundress with a flower in my hair. Then, as I move my family into a cardboard box, they'll like it cause I can finally be me. Not so simple.

I deal with the military every day in my life and really struggle with wanting to dress in public when away because I don't want someone to get the wrong idea about my orientation. We are so stereotyped by people in general it makes me sick, I am proud of the TG community though because they don't seem as militant in being rude and accusatory of others because they have a different view.

[obsessedwithpantyhose]

its because the small minds of the cave dwellers can barely wrap their heads around gays and lesbians,,so to stand in front of them in a dress and say im str8 realy blows their peabrained minds all to pieces,,,

gay men dont like women,,they sure as hell are NOT gona wear their clothes,

[Deborah G]

I can agree that we are most likely as numerous as gays and lesbians. However, we are not out there in the public eye pleading our identity and our right to be us. We allow ourselves to be cast as whatever others feel appropriate or inappropriate. We have ourselves to blame. If we set good examples and show others that we're normal, everyday, tax paying, go-to-working types (who happen to enjoy dressing as the fairer sex), we should be OK. I'm not saying this will be easy, but we need to start somewhere, somehow. Just be who we are and the rest will take care of itself eventually, IMO.

[Miranda-E]

gay men dont like women,,they sure as hell are NOT gona wear their clothes,

nice stereotype

[battybattybats]

It is however a poor generalization to say that none of us help the GLBT community, many TG people do!

I didn't say none, I said 'virtually no'.. as while some tiny number of CDs do an absolute heap when looked at as a whole community we as a community do almost nothing at all. Or if we are significantly contributing we are doing so with such successful secrecy that it is harming our own community! If at least we let the groups we contibute to know it is CDs contributing they'd move our issues to a higher priority and if we told other CDs more of our contributions we'd foster more of a spirit of contribution and action.


By being more visible in the community, by not hiding in our closets, by not pretending to be anything other than who we are ........ simple really :)

That has been a significant part of the GLB communities success. But how do we encourage and support enough to do that? The gay community made it a deliberate act to try to win more acceptance and get more votes on rights issues (As seen in a prominant scene in the film Milk). They decided that it was something that must be done. A small radical number even going so far as to out prominant public figures (something I would not condone unless they were publicly anti-TG if at all). They also gathered together in 'gay ghettos' (that are often now wealthy neighbourhoods) following the Hippies lead in San Francisco that resulted in increased power and visibility and safety while also providing close networks of friends to support those deserted by family and friends when they came out.


Political Actitvism...

They made that a part of their culture working on both sides of politics. The Log Cabin Republicans being one significant gay concervative lobby group as one example. However they determined political activism was a needed part of their community and individual support whereas here and many other CD-TG groups we speak of politics and activism as a dirty word, dispute it's efficacy and allow the pointless partisan bickering of some to prevent any organised bipartisan political activism even though the article on overcoming internalised oppression specifically mentions fighting injustice as one of the most powerful ways of healling shame guilt and self hate! http://ctb.ku.edu/en/tablecontents/sub_section_main_1172.htm


As I drive onto the military base to my job, past the armed Marines, I'll think about what the reaction would be if I was wearing a sundress with a flower in my hair. Then, as I move my family into a cardboard box, they'll like it cause I can finally be me. Not so simple.

Good point! GLB and especially TG folk actually serve in the military in greater proportions of population than het-Cis folk! The GLBT groups are fighting Don't Ask Don't Tell to get rid of anti-GLBT policies and that has increasing Bipartisan support! Again they are fighting our battles for us more than we are.

But that also leads me back to Sheila's point!

If we need more to come out and if many of us risk our jobs and our families to do so then shouldn't we concentrate first not on encouraging people to all come out and be visible but rather to contribute to and fight for the job-protections and violence-protections and civil rights measures already coming before legislatures in several cities/counties/states and countries? We could even do much of that from the closet. If we were to win those protections then more could come out and be visible, in everday jobs and in military jobs.

[sometimes_miss]

C'mon, Batty, this is simple, and you know it. But I know that you like to write about all this, and try to get things stirred up.

Gays and lesbians are more out than we are, mainly because there are lots of gay and lesbian meeting places where they can meet other gays and lesbians. But there aren't any crossdresser straight girl clubs, anywhere, simply because there aren't a lot of women interested in us. So, there's not much reason for us to be 'out', just based on a simple 'cost-benefit' type of viewpoint. Believe me, if there were such a bar (qualifier, there would have to be a significant amount of women there, not just one token GG and the rest all male crossdressers), and you asked 100 single heterosexual crossdressers if we would go there, the response would be almost completely affirmative. But such a world does not exist yet.

Not sure if it ever will in my lifetime, and I'm still not convinced that just more of us being 'out' will change what females are innately attracted to; there's something inside me that says women are always going to be predominantly attracted to traditionally masculine behavior and dress, and vice-versa. Us trying to appear 'pretty' females screws up the sexual attraction triggers for the vast majority of women.

[AmandaM]

<<Quote:Originally Posted by AmandaM
As I drive onto the military base to my job, past the armed Marines, I'll think about what the reaction would be if I was wearing a sundress with a flower in my hair. Then, as I move my family into a cardboard box, they'll like it cause I can finally be me. Not so simple.

Good point! GLB and especially TG folk actually serve in the military in greater proportions of population than het-Cis folk! The GLBT groups are fighting Don't Ask Don't Tell to get rid of anti-GLBT policies and that has increasing Bipartisan support! Again they are fighting our battles for us more than we are.>>

My fight. That's a laugh. I'll support it when I can wear what I want.

[battybattybats]

Gays and lesbians are more out than we are, mainly because there are lots of gay and lesbian meeting places where they can meet other gays and lesbians. But there aren't any crossdresser straight girl clubs, anywhere, simply because there aren't a lot of women interested in us.

But gender non-conformists have been considered attractive by many GGs! Tim Curry in Rocky Horror, David Bowie, Boy George, Marylin Manson, Davey Havok, Jeffree Starr, Eddie Izzard...

Thing is that many of these GGs do not date us because they are scared of the judgements of their peers!

But not only have there been TG-attracted GGs here on this forum but there was one Australian Big brother contestant who descrived us as her perfect fantasy and I even know 2 in my own town (both taken).


Not sure if it ever will in my lifetime, and I'm still not convinced that just more of us being 'out' will change what females are innately attracted to; there's something inside me that says women are always going to be predominantly attracted to traditionally masculine behavior and dress, and vice-versa. Us trying to appear 'pretty' females screws up the sexual attraction triggers for the vast majority of women.

That is not natural, or all males would look like he-man as thats what would have been selected for over thousands of years and there would be no skinny effeminate male celebrities other than in gay culture. Yet somehow Johny Depp does fine. And here's the clincher. Read this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/724774/Tribes-and-tribulations.html


An African tribal ceremony in which men wearing make-up compete in a beauty contest for the affections of women in the audience...


Hundreds of men, described as "tall, lithe, physically beautiful people with elegant, feminine features", paint their faces to accentuate the whiteness of their eyes and teeth, and dance in the ceremony,


The dancers are judged by women who choose those they would like to get to know better - or even marry



My fight. That's a laugh. I'll support it when I can wear what I want.

Protection of Gender Expression would give you that. Where you may need to wear a uniform (practical identification of rank and unit and camouflage etc) you'd have free gender expression within the unifrom options for men and women. Where you don't need to wear a uniform then you'd be fine wouldn't you. But right now under DADT you can be fired for what you do off-base as a CD het or not.

[AmandaM]

<<Protection of Gender Expression would give you that. Where you may need to wear a uniform (practical identification of rank and unit and camouflage etc) you'd have free gender expression within the unifrom options for men and women. Where you don't need to wear a uniform then you'd be fine wouldn't you. But right now under DADT you can be fired for what you do off-base as a CD het or not. >>

Protection of Gender Expression would be a nice thing. :)

[battybattybats]

Protection of Gender Expression would be a nice thing. :)

Indeed. So the question is, will you be covered by ENDA or not?

The current version is Gender Expression protecting.. if it passes intact. And i'm not sure of it's military coverage.

If not then we'll have to see if the plans on DADT will cover gender expression sufficiently for you and for all the other TG military in your country.

I'm not sure of the Australian situation for that matter, the only openly TG person in our military to my knowledge was a TS who when transitioning was transferred to control of a replica tall-ship of historic importance.

[RobynP]

We need our own cable TV channel... and we need mainstream businesses to start target advertising their products specifically to us...

Robyn P.

[battybattybats]

We need our own cable TV channel... and we need mainstream businesses to start target advertising their products specifically to us...

Robyn P.

To get that we must show we have economic power.. which we must have. But we need to show it!

The best way to do that is by boycotts and by making a point to spend money on the same thing together. To make how we use money a piece of activism. The Gay community did that, like making a success of the unions Coors Beer boycott in San Francisco that was a big part of the rise of Harvey Milk to.

Maybe it's time to revive my Buy CD/TG Day thread? If the greater CD community, even while closetted, could show themselves to have economic power then there will be products and businesses targeted to us and that will dramatically improve matters for us.

[Carly D.]

I've had this question all along; where does cross dressing start? That's one of those "to be or not to be" noggin scratchers... to me I think cross dressing starts at wearing anything that women wear but... there's the whole pierced ears and wearing ear rings thing that means every guy with pierced ears is a cd.. which isn't the case.. nor I guess is wearing only one article of womens clothing.. or is it?? very gray area indeed..

[Jessica Who]

I wanted to construct my response without reading any replies, so here goes.

In my opinion, the majority (or at least half) or our community keeps to the closet, even in the midst of our own families. If nobody knows about us, how in the world can they accept us? Stereotypes and negative images will continue to flourish as long as we as a people keep hiding in the shadows.

Personally, I am coming out to my family and friends slowly but surely, giving them the time that they need to understand exactly what crossdressing and being transgendered is all about. In addition, I work hard on my personal blog, relaying my perspective and retelling many of my experiences.

I know that I'm mostly preaching to the choir, but I'm okay with that. My mother and my friends that know about Jessica regularly read my blog, and I'm sure that they aren't the only non-cds who visit my site.

Little by little, we can create change, but we can't just sit back and expect it to happen. We've got to make the change.

If this comes off pretentious, I didn't intend it. I'm pretty happy-go-lucky when it comes to crossdressing :D:D:D:hugs:

- Jessica

[Satrana]

What we really need is a separate identity from the gay community. We will never gain acceptance if the public is unaware that sexual and gender expression and two different entities independent of each other. We will not get respect if the public believes we are just drag queens.

The community itself does not need to become militant per se, just conscious of its rights to equality and belief that we can change.

What we lack is a small group of TGs who are willing to make it their life's work to harass politicians and businesses and promote the power of our community - and have the community back them up. Without some prominent leaders to speak on our behalf, our cause will get lost amongst all the competing groups.

We lack a central focal point
We lack leaders
We lack public awareness
We lack belief in ourselves
We lack self information

Instead of acting ladylike, we need to act like super bitches if we don't want our rights trampled over. Individuals do not need to become publically militant themselves, rather they just need to be kept informed of the state of affairs and be willing to act upon advice given if pressure is needed to be applied, or alternatively when reward should be given.

[PaulaJaneThomas]

I've had this question all along; where does cross dressing start? That's one of those "to be or not to be" noggin scratchers... to me I think cross dressing starts at wearing anything that women wear but... there's the whole pierced ears and wearing ear rings thing that means every guy with pierced ears is a cd.. which isn't the case.. nor I guess is wearing only one article of womens clothing.. or is it?? very gray area indeed..

You're asking the wrong question IMHO. The true issue isn't about what is or isn't worn, it's about gender presentation. That bloke with ear-rings isn't trying to present as female any more than a women wearing trousers is trying to present as male.

[battybattybats]

We will never gain acceptance if the public is unaware that sexual and gender expression and two different entities independent of each other.

But isn't the neurology just showing that being GLB is just having a different part of the brain cross-sexed to the part that determines gender identity? Making both TS and GLB different forms of neurological Intersex?


What we lack is a small group of TGs who are willing to make it their life's work to harass politicians and businesses and promote the power of our community - and have the community back them up.

How large is the 'small group' needing to be? We already have a bunch of TG organisations and TG activists, even I'm doing that job as best I can both nationally and locally. The community backing them up bit needs a lot more though compared to GLB.

We lack a central focal point Theres TG rights issues on the table right now all over the world!
We lack leaders There are TG activists doing the hard work right now!
We lack public awareness If we supported more and acted like a community more we'd get it!
We lack belief in ourselves Getting Active builds that!
We lack self information The more we accept as a community the easier that will be for people to gain!


Instead of acting ladylike, we need to act like super bitches if we don't want our rights trampled over.

We don't need to go that far, just act like the women of the past who stood up for their rights.

[janet1234]

part of the problem is that as CD's we are more obvious 'out' than gays and lesbians who more often than not, look 'normal'.
I would simply be a man in a dress and quite obvious.

[Satrana]

But isn't the neurology just showing that being GLB is just having a different part of the brain cross-sexed to the part that determines gender identity? Making both TS and GLB different forms of neurological Intersex? The science is still debatable, the behavior is not. The public does not need to understand the science, just be aware of the facts on the ground.


How large is the 'small group' needing to be?
Here is the thing - the TG community is largely composed of closeted CDs. There will never be mass rallies that are the hallmark of other social revolutions because TGs dont want to draw attention to themselves. Fortunately the internet allows a closeted community to do things digitally without resorting to physical demonstrations.

What is needed is a central web site run by say a dozen or so activists. All TGs need to be aware of the site and support it by visiting it regularly for updates on causes. Large traffic statistics would give the site the leverage to demonstrate to politicians and businesses they have to take our needs into account. A successful boycott of a company's products due to its anti-TG policies would make mainstream news. This has worked before with the acknowledgment of the "pink" dollar.

I believe the TG community is probably three times larger than the gay community. If all TGs made it their business to support a central organization by doing nothing more simply regularly visiting and registering on a website, the leverage that would give activists would be significant.


We don't need to go that far, just act like the women of the past who stood up for their rights. Ahem, the women's rights movement has a violent, militant history. Bitchiness gets attention, ladyness gets you a pat on the head

[battybattybats]

The science is still debatable, the behavior is not. The public does not need to understand the science, just be aware of the facts on the ground.

Point taken.


Here is the thing - the TG community is largely composed of closeted CDs. There will never be mass rallies that are the hallmark of other social revolutions because TGs dont want to draw attention to themselves.

I'm not sure that will always be so. In the 60's and 70's few Gays were willing to draw attention to thirselves either, but some radicals went and dragged the rest into the spotlight.


Fortunately the internet allows a closeted community to do things digitally without resorting to physical demonstrations.

And more effectively i think!


What is needed is a central web site run by say a dozen or so activists. All TGs need to be aware of the site and support it by visiting it regularly for updates on causes. Large traffic statistics would give the site the leverage to demonstrate to politicians and businesses they have to take our needs into account. A successful boycott of a company's products due to its anti-TG policies would make mainstream news. This has worked before with the acknowledgment of the "pink" dollar.

Thats a really good idea! Some schisms will be guaranteed though, no group has total unity. But maximising support would be powerful.


I believe the TG community is probably three times larger than the gay community. If all TGs made it their business to support a central organization by doing nothing more simply regularly visiting and registering on a website, the leverage that would give activists would be significant.

Heck if half did it might be enough! If all did we could have total civil rights issues covered in the whole western world in maybe 4 years at most.


Ahem, the women's rights movement has a violent, militant history. Bitchiness gets attention, ladyness gets you a pat on the head

Depends on the country! Australia was the 2nd country in the world to give women the vote and didn't use violence, just petitions and door-to-door education and marches. It passed by referendum! Other countries though did not listen to reason and so the women had to get tough.

[flatlander_48]

Discussions of numbers of our community are sketchy, but quite a few estimates have ranged from 6% to 10% of the population. That makes us as or even more numerous than Gisgender Lesbians and Gays!

If thats the case and many here complain that Gays have more social acceptance, and indeed that acceptance is growing as the latest Australian poll puts support for same-sex marriage (an issue that effects married TSs too as in Australia if you transition your forced to divorce to get legal recognition) as having increased to almost 60% of general population and 75% of young people, then shouldn't we look at what they have been doing that most of our community has not been doing and finding ways to help our own TG community?

So then, what is it that Gays and Lesbians have been doing that we have not? What have they been doing more than we have been? How can we change that?

Interesting subject. Thing is, they have to be careful in doing the stats. Is it only straight CDs/TGs or does that include gays? Anyway, the point is that there could be double dipping.

The thing is, it is possible for CDs/TGs to claim their femininity on demand. It is not necessarily a full time thing. It can be, but we may go back and forth as needed and as situations dictate where a feminine personna may not be welcomed. Anyway, I think society doesn't quite know what to think of us. We seem to be neither this nor that. People want to compartmentalize and they just can't. It is a bit more straightforward with lesbians and gays. They are essentially as they seem. There isn't a preceived conflict between how they appear and what they are.

I don't have an answer here, but I think that we start with a deficeit with respect to lesbians and gays.

[Christinedreamer]

I am am member of an MCC church in Whittier, Ca. My GF and I are 2 of 4 hetero members. We have had many discussions with the leaders of this church and the local LGBT community about the PRIDE parades. The news media and hence, the general public see the leather boys, the camp drag queens, the SM crowd etc. on the news. They make the best sound bites and sensation shots. Unfortunately those images endure, much the same as Uncle Miltie was the vision of crossdressing 50 years ago.

IMO, until the LGBT community as a whole realizes that these extremes are interpreted as the norm for the entire LGBT population and decides that even though some of us may indulge in these activities in private, our lives are NOT centered around them. We all get tarred with the same brush. You don't see too many stories about sucessful LGBT business folks in banking, construction etc. You only hear about hairdressers, decorators and florists.

Remember how the world was stunned to learn about Tula? We need to encourage non sensationalistic individuals in our community to get involved publicly and begin to frankly discuss the issues about TGism in all its aspects.

There will always be bumpkins who think only that what's between the legs dictates what SHOULD be between the ears. We need to work on those who have the ability to understand the facts and ignore the hype that we ourselves create.

[battybattybats]

Interesting subject. Thing is, they have to be careful in doing the stats. Is it only straight CDs/TGs or does that include gays? Anyway, the point is that there could be double dipping.

With a greater proportion of TG being made up of apprantly het CDs the double-dipping will be small. It will be there yes but the large numbers of straight het CDs alone appears to be a significant part of the population. Closetted CDs for example appear to be a larger population in Australia than Aboriginals!

[dawnmarrie1961]

This low number 10% is probably because of the confusion amongst the psychiatric community on how exactly to categorize cross dressing because it encompasses such a wide spectrum and degrees of behavior . Much like asking individuals if they masturbate on a regular basis, you aren't going to get to many truly honest answers when it comes to the question of wearing woman's clothes. Mostly because of the underlying stigma that is attached to the behavior.

I suspect that the number is well above 50 % or higher. If levels of cross dressing were to be accurately measured on spectrum of 1 to 100 percent, most males would fall some where on the lower end. Between 1 to 20%. Wearing woman's under garments for the sexual arousal that it creates.

25 to 50 percent being individuals that dress for reasons other than sexual, but still identifying themselves of the male gender. The psychological comfort that the behavior creates in the brain.

50 to 75 percent being actual gender identity challenged.

75 to 100 percent spectrum. Varying degrees of the Transgendered.

This spectrum I do admit is not scientific. I'm just using it to show you that due to the wide spectrum the number of actual cross dressers is much higher than expected.

Because of this I can hypothesize that a certain amount of cross dressing may actually be considered "normal" male behavior.:D

:doh:Who knew?

[silhouette]

This thread inspires me.
I am going to start rallying for the right of cross dressers to get married!

I am just being facetious of course, but my underlying point is that the GLBT have more serious problems on their hands than we do.
Yes being able to dress and be socially accepted is important, but being able to marry your partner is a more significant issue.

[silhouette]

part of the problem is that as CD's we are more obvious 'out' than gays

that depends on the gay
some are pretty flaming obvious, if you catch my drift! :tongueout

[battybattybats]

This thread inspires me.
I am going to start rallying for the right of cross dressers to get married!

I am just being facetious of course, but my underlying point is that the GLBT have more serious problems on their hands than we do.
Yes being able to dress and be socially accepted is important, but being able to marry your partner is a more significant issue.

But if we transition, as some do, then we are forced to divorce! Making marriage our issue too!

And GLB people are more often covered by employment protection and hate-crimes laws. And are less often assaulted or murdered.

For example in my own state of New South Wales Australia Transsexuals gays and lesbians are covered by anti-discrimination legislation.. but not crossdressers! And while Gays and Lesbians are covered by Anti-villification legislation neither crossdressers nor transsexuals are covered by it!

[dawnmarrie1961]

Every body has the right to get married to whom ever & what ever they want. (Remember the lady last year that married a dolphin?) It is the desire to have the whole world recognize the union of two people that causes all the hub bub. Every body wants recognition & validation. It's every human beings way of saying we matter amongst the masses.

[battybattybats]

Every body has the right to get married to whom ever & what ever they want. (Remember the lady last year that married a dolphin?) It is the desire to have the whole world recognize the union of two people that causes all the hub bub. Every body wants recognition & validation. It's every human beings way of saying we matter amongst the masses.

I think the different laws pertaining to married and not-married may be a lot of the issue, and there are quite a large amount of those. Sure the symbol and the principle of equality are part of it but the right to visit your dying partner in hospital is a little bit more important.

[RobynP]

And GLB people are more often covered by employment protection and hate-crimes laws...

For example in my own state of New South Wales Australia Transsexuals gays and lesbians are covered by anti-discrimination legislation.. but not crossdressers! And while Gays and Lesbians are covered by Anti-villification legislation neither crossdressers nor transsexuals are covered by it!

Umm... So are you saying that if a TS is gay, they are then protected by the GLB employment protection? So if a TS is heterosexual or if a crossdresser is gay or bi, they are not protected, right?

And the Anti-Vilification law protects gays and lesbians as long as they are not CD or TS? I am confused...

Robyn P.

[battybattybats]

Umm... So are you saying that if a TS is gay, they are then protected by the GLB employment protection? So if a TS is heterosexual or if a crossdresser is gay or bi, they are not protected, right?

And the Anti-Vilification law protects gays and lesbians as long as they are not CD or TS? I am confused...

Robyn P.

Oh it's simple. The laws depend on the WHY of the discrimination.

So a Gay CD discriminated against for being A CD gets no protection at all just because they are Gay because being Gay had nothing to do with why they were fired, kciked out of the store etc. A gay CD discriminated against for being Gay though is protected from this.

Just like A Gay CD Chrisitian discriminated against for being a christian is protected, discriminated against for being Gay is protected, but discriminated against for being a CD is not.

[The Gas Man Cometh]

But if we transition, as some do, then we are forced to divorce! Making marriage our issue too!

And GLB people are more often covered by employment protection and hate-crimes laws. And are less often assaulted or murdered.

For example in my own state of New South Wales Australia Transsexuals gays and lesbians are covered by anti-discrimination legislation.. but not crossdressers! And while Gays and Lesbians are covered by Anti-villification legislation neither crossdressers nor transsexuals are covered by it!

Welp, if we can convince officials that CDers are transgendered... then problem solved.

Now the only problem is convincing them.

Aww damn..

[TSchapes]

Discussions of numbers of our community are sketchy, but quite a few estimates have ranged from 6% to 10% of the population. That makes us as or even more numerous than Gisgender Lesbians and Gays!

I wish there were some good numbers. I'm of a belief that if the numbers are as high as 6% to 10% then a good number of them are not even aware that they fall within the TG spectrum. I'm out to over 50 people at work and I have yet to have anybody come up and say they are TG (other than the one TS I know). I think it's probably less than 5%, just a guess. To put the numbers in perspective, we have around 10 million in SE Michigan. For there to be a 5% TG population, there would have to be 500 thousand that would identify as TG. There are little over 13,000 here on this board. I've met a number of the TG community here in SE Michigan and I can't believe it's over 500. So I don't think we are as prevalent as we like to think.


If thats the case and many here complain that Gays have more social acceptance, and indeed that acceptance is growing as the latest Australian poll puts support for same-sex marriage (an issue that effects married TSs too as in Australia if you transition your forced to divorce to get legal recognition) as having increased to almost 60% of general population and 75% of young people, then shouldn't we look at what they have been doing that most of our community has not been doing and finding ways to help our own TG community?

Again, my own experience is that the Lesbian and Gay is more prevalent than the TG. Keep in mind there are a number of TG folk that are gay and bi-sexual. Sexual orientation becomes more important only because it has to do with who you can be seen with. If you're a CD and married, you don't need to have this important acceptance. Because we can survive in the closet, there is no impending emergency to come out of the closet.

And again, back to the unknown numbers, my own experience is that there are more married/hetero CD's than 24/7 TG/TS within the TG spectrum. TG/TS are going to be more active within the community because they are talking about health care issues. Once a person becomes TS, any health problem that is related to the SRS is not covered.

I know I'm giving anecdotal evidence, but since there are no hard numbers, this is what I am left with. For example, the one TS at work joined our LGBT organization as a Lesbian, because she is still with her wife of many years. It wasn't until recently that she's even taken on the TS political issues. But in her mind, the Lesbian issues were more important than the TS issues.


So then, what is it that Gays and Lesbians have been doing that we have not?

Again, it is harder for a gay person to hide than a TG person. In fact, a number of TG/TS wish to live "stealth" and not draw attention to themselves. The Gays and Lesbians have been doing things out of necessity, the TG community has to do things out of a sense of what is right. So just in shear numbers that are out, the Gay & Lesbians have a big advantage.

As far as what they have been doing? Ever since Stonewall Gays & Lesbians have organized on a set of common political issues. The TG community has not organized itself with clear issues.


What have they been doing more than we have been? How can we change that?

Simply, they have been visible, we have not. They have clear stated goals, we do not. They are cohesive to the point that if the TG community drags them down, they have no problem with jettisoning our issues.

Admit it, if we can't even come out to our own So's, how are we going to affect society at large?

What steps can be taken?


Accept yourself and do not be ashamed of who and what you are
Come out to your SO
Come out to as many people as you can
Participate in the political side, for CD's helping the TG/TS cause helps yourself


Short of me wearing a badge on my chest that says, "Ask me about my cross dressing", I'm doing all I can.

-Tracy

[Satrana]

So I don't think we are as prevalent as we like to think.


I believe that most CDs are deeply hidden in their closets with no intention of telling anyone ever. Also much of the CD behavior does revolve around fetish sexuality, another source of shame. I don't believe many CDs are any more transgendered than the average person.

One way to look at this is to examine more tolerant societies. For example a school in Thailand had a suggestion that it needed to provide toilets for the "third sex". So the school decided to conduct a survey to see if a TG toilet was warranted. 7.5% of the schoolchildren responded they were TG and so the school proceeded with providing extra toilets.

Now granted some of the 7.5% may have been gay but this type of story confirms that the likely CD population is between 5-10%.

[Elsa Larson]

I did a newspaper interview in the late 1980's.
I suggested to the reporter that 10% of the population is primarily homosexual and 5% fall under the wide umbrella of "transgendered".

The reporter corrected my statistics because she had proof that ALL men are crossdressers !!!!
She had recenty attended a party where the entertainment was a photographer with a lot of old costumes.
By the end of the evening, ALL of the men had been photographed wearing a lady's hat.