Can we have it both ways?

[Lorileah]

This is not another how can we be both man and woman to SO's

No, this is a question on how we expect the LGBT community to support us in getting more respect and rights and then so many of the posts make a point that they are not gay and want nothing to do with being associated with the gays.

So in honor of those 7 foot tall Drag Queens who didn't throw shoes but threw bricks (stole that from a radio spot) 40 years ago, can we ask the GLBT community to support us and in the same breath say "I'm not GAY!" like it is a bad thing? If we disassociate ourselves from the community, would you be more willing to fight for what you think you should be entitled to?

[susanCD123]

I agree, and must say "well said". I am happy with myself, and have enough self confidence to move on finally. Hey, life is just way to short to keep denying, and besides, its way way too much fun.

[Carol A]

Lorileah,

Now that is a hard question, I have nothing again a gay person. But I don't feel as if I am gay because I like to dress as a women, sweetheart I have been crossdressing since I was 14 and at 70 see no need to change. It is me and nothing more then that.

[DonnaT]

No, this is a question on how we expect the LGBT community to support us in getting more respect and rights and then so many of the posts make a point that they are not gay and want nothing to do with being associated with the gays.

I know quite a few who are gay, and I give them support.

That said, note that not all Trans folk say what you've indicated. Many do provide support and even hang out with gays.

Also, I can't fault anyone who doesn't, considering not all gays support us.

[pattyv]

Hi Lorileah: Excellent point. We have 3 sons-all straight- and all 3 have gay friends as well as straight friends. My wife and I brought them up to respect different cultures,religions and sexual preferences. They would be applled at some of the latent anti-gay comments posted here.Speak up gurls.

Laura.

[Kimberely416]

In the end, it's all about respect isn't it? I frequent gay clubs because that's the only place around where I can go out dressed and feel safe. As a result, I have made some friends who just happen to be gay; real nice people, I should add. I have made my situation very clear. They respect that and it doesn't stop us from having a good time.

Kimberely:Peace:

[Gabrielle Hermosa]

I don't see why we can't have it both ways.

I think that a many crossdressers offer that they are not gay because there is that wide perception that crossdressers are gay. Even among other crossdressers, I think some feel the need to be clear on the subject of sexuality.

I think there are also those who offer that they are not gay because they are homophobic, at least to some extent. It may be their way of saying "don't hit on me" or something.

I think it is safe to say that for most straight men, getting hit on by other men, even crossdressers, can be an awkward experience. In that light, I don't think any show of homophobia or insult is intended in the unsolicited "I'm not gay" statements.

Whether or not gay men are offended by such a display... I would imagine some are and some are not. No idea as to the percentages on that.

I don't think that people should feel wrong or shameful about their sexual preference either way. In many threads, it does help to know one's sexual preference in order to better understand where they're coming from in their opinions.

...

Just re-read the thread-starting post. Didn't take into consideration the "not wanting to be associated with the gays." :doh: Oh well.

I guess the bottom line is you can't really sum up any one group as a whole, can you? I get what you're saying though.

Perhaps everyone needs to be more open-minded, period - gay, straight, bi, cd, and non-cd. ;)

[Billijo49504]

I have a great respect for anyone that's NOT one of those "I'm so perfect" people. I've worked with several members of the gay community. As a matter of fact, I was down to The Network here in town, to look at some of their reference material, on transitioning, just last week. And the only reason I didn't get to the Pride celebration, is because my 92 yr old dad needed my help. Seems like a lot of people want to point a finger or flip a finger, why don't we just put both of those fingers in the air. As in PEACE...BJ

[Jenny Brown]

So in honor of those 7 foot tall Drag Queens who didn't throw shoes but threw bricks (stole that from a radio spot) 40 years ago, can we ask the GLBT community to support us and in the same breath say "I'm not GAY!" like it is a bad thing? If we disassociate ourselves from the community, would you be more willing to fight for what you think you should be entitled to?

Willing to fight for what? What kind of "support" do you want? What do you think you're "entitled to" that you haven't already got? AFAIK, it's not illegal to CD in Denver, so can you explain what you're talking about here?:doh:

[deja true]

Go ahead and tell us you're not gay...

That doesn't necessarily mean you're straight, fella!

You wear women's clothes don't you? Know many "real" straight guys that do that?

Sheesh!

Said it before... I'm hetero-curious! Always wondered what it would be like to grow up to be real man. I might try it sometime. I don't think my gf will mind...

Ha!

;)

[charlie]

Good question. It seems that we are constantly saying "I'm not gay, just a cross dresser". Many of the bars that I go to are gay, and do accept CD/TG. Lots of my friends are both gay and TG. They accept me. Society though will say I'm gay and weird all at the same time. I suppose we are bunched in with the Pride Groups because society lumps us all in together.

[Sara Jessica]

This is not another how can we be both man and woman to SO's

No, this is a question on how we expect the LGBT community to support us in getting more respect and rights and then so many of the posts make a point that they are not gay and want nothing to do with being associated with the gays.

So in honor of those 7 foot tall Drag Queens who didn't throw shoes but threw bricks (stole that from a radio spot) 40 years ago, can we ask the GLBT community to support us and in the same breath say "I'm not GAY!" like it is a bad thing? If we disassociate ourselves from the community, would you be more willing to fight for what you think you should be entitled to?

Beautiful point, and very timely given all of the "I'm not gay but..." posts around right now. Wait, those are pretty much ever-present. Anyways, I could care less if anyone thinks I'm gay and should they engage me in conversation and that comes up, I'd just show off my wedding ring.


Willing to fight for what? What kind of "support" do you want? What do you think you're "entitled to" that you haven't already got? AFAIK, it's not illegal to CD in Denver, so can you explain what you're talking about here?:doh:

Such a ray of sunshine.

How about the right not to be victims of physical violence? That'd be a good start.

[Jenny Brown]

Such a ray of sunshine. How about the right not to be victims of physical violence? That'd be a good start.
Whatever, it's a valid question.
What do you think you are "entitled to"? Protection against physical violence? Anyone anywhere could be subject to physical violence, not just you. What exactly do you "want"? CD-ing isn't against the law. What do you need to "fight for"? Please explain.

[Sherry-Stephanie]

One has to be in some sort of community and I think it's a safer bet that being in the gay community for me is where it's at....I'm not going to be looking for a straight understand gg lady to accept my quirks anytime soon and more thna likely never since odds are I won't see another 10 years here on tis rock... that's just the way it is.....I hope I ahve better luck being me there than I've had so far in my former enviorment...but that's just me at this moment..who knows....

[Noxvictum]

Well, if there aren't enough of us in LGBT groups to prove our support, then there's something wrong there. I would think it's because we're generally more gaurded about who we are. Not that I can prove anything... We're all in the same spectrum of defying gender roles, with as many points on the spectrum as there are people.

[KimberlyS]

.....this is a question on how we expect the LGBT community to support us in getting more respect and rights and then so many of the posts make a point that they are not gay and want nothing to do with being associated with the gays.

This same thing hit me awhile back. I use to end a description of my self as saying something about not being gay. Until one day it hit me how bad that sounded. I have worked on changing how I describe myself to include hetro some where in the middle of the description only if I think it is needed. Otherwise I have just started leaving it out. I have some good gay and lesbian friends and agree we do not need to be making it sound like a bad thing.

kim
joe in a skirt

[kellycan27]

No, this is a question on how we expect the LGBT community to support us in getting more respect and rights and then so many of the posts make a point that they are not gay and want nothing to do with being associated with the gays.

So in honor of those 7 foot tall Drag Queens who didn't throw shoes but threw bricks (stole that from a radio spot) 40 years ago, can we ask the GLBT community to support us and in the same breath say "I'm not GAY!" like it is a bad thing? If we disassociate ourselves from the community, would you be more willing to fight for what you think you should be entitled to?

I think that maybe, just as in our own community there are going to be those people in the LGBT community who hold predjudice. I don't believe that the vast majority of the LGBT community has any kind of problem with crossdressers one way or another. I don't know if all of the "I am not gay" disclaimers would really have an effect on us as...who sees them,except for us? I have never seen any of them standing on a street corner( dressed or not) touting their str8ness, or going on television or radio trying to spread the word. They just pop off in forums such as this, nice and safe where they can talk their talk, and stay hidden in a closet or behind an an avatar that doesn't even depict who they really are. They are not too hard to spot....loner types,no friends listed in their profiles, tend to disagree on just about everything. Their sole purpose is to spout their venom. Luckily they seem to be a very small minotiry and they usually out themselve quite quickly and seem to vanish as quickly as they appear. They are very easy to distinguish from the people who
may in fact tout their heterosexuality,but also make it perfectly clear that they don't have a problem with anyone elses preference or orientation.Live and let live. I don't think that they GLBG community would have a problem supporting these types because they can clearly be seen as tolerant. Just my opinion.. that's my story and i am sticking to it.

Kelly

[battybattybats]

Good point , at times some of the 'i'm not gay' comments over the years I've been here have been downright homophobic. I for one have supported gay-rights issues for long before I fought past my own self-denial to admit my own TGness. I have written letters in support of Gay equal rights, signed petitions in support of decriminalisation of homosexuality which contributed to the successful decriminalisation in the parts of Australia that had kept it illegal. I have also educated some Lesbian friends about transgender issues turning them from transphobic to transgender-supporting!


What do you think you are "entitled to"?

Equal rights and privileges and service and access to resources and infrastructure and representation without exception.


Protection against physical violence?

Let me rephrase that perhasp. Equal protection against violence. How about that :)


Anyone anywhere could be subject to physical violence, not just you.

Not at the same rates!
The risks are greater! And increasing!
Where people based on Race suffered extra violence we enacted protections specific to the increased risk to that community. Same for Religion. Same for Sex.

As we suffer according to all the stats a far greater risk (particularly for non-white out TG women) than any of those groups then by that prcedent we should also get the same protection those other groups get! The greater the risk the greater the resources of protections. That makes it equal. Rather than extra protections for a Satanist (religion) White (race) Man (sex) who has exta protections if attacked for being a man, white or a satanist we who suffer far more risk do not get these protections because we are TG!


CD-ing isn't against the law.

It is in some countries! In fact you get executed and/or tortured for it in some!

In my state in Australia: New South Wales, the legal antidiscrimination protections cover only Transsexuals, not crossdressers, because of the way the law defines Transgender! I can be kicked out of shops and malls and even libraries for crossdressing. I could be fired from a job for crossdressing. I could be kicked out of a school or education institution for crossdressing. Because the anti-discrimination legislation only covers transsexuals so it's legal to discriminate against crossdressers (and Goths!) And the Transsexuals here unlike race and religion are not protected by the anti-vilification legilsaltion! They also suffer a great deal of health-system and police discrimination and Intersex suffer what is often worse.

And we have no bill or charter of rights in this state or at the federal level (I've been working on the latter) to try and fall back on. no freedom of speech! No freedom of expression!

[tracijae]

Crossdressing is something different, isn't it? It is a desire most of us felt at a very young age. Some of us before sexuality or puberty. Sexual orientation is not really the issue. A desire to feel feminine, however is the issue. Many of us grew up coveting our sister's freinds clothes...and the freind as well. While we as a society become more accepting of all sexual orientations, crossdressers live in the grey area. Accepted by no one living in the black-and-white-straight or gay world.

[AmandaM]

I'm not gay.

[Jenny Brown]

They just pop off in forums such as this, nice and safe where they can talk their talk, and stay hidden in a closet or behind an avatar that doesn't even depict who they really are.
Not everyone on this forum is out to prove or "tout" something. Some are here, just like you, to share their opinion. And at the end of the day, no matter what anyone says, that's all it is. An opinion.:doh:

[kellycan27]

crossdressers live in the grey area. Accepted by no one living in the black-and-white-straight or gay world.

Personally I don't believe that that is completely accurate. From my experience i find that the vast majority of society doesn't really care one way or another...too wrapped up in their own little lives to bother much with us. As I mentioned before, there are going to be the detractors, those are the ones who spue their poison because they can't accept someone's being different. Everybody is always complaining that they are lumped together,but in making statements like this are we not just as guilty? I think that if you took a poll of those who are out, and those who are not you'ed get a much different opinion between the groups as to how society views us. We still have miles to go, but things are changing for the better. IMHO, fear of the unknown does us more harm than so called society. Read the threads in regards to those who finally develope the nerve to venture out and see what they say...


Not everyone on this forum is out to prove or "tout" something. Some are here, just like you, to share their opinion. And at the end of the day, no matter what anyone says, that's all it is. An opinion.:doh:

Very true Jenny, But on the other hand...some are, and some do.

[Teri Jean]

Lori,
When I joined this forum I wanted everyone to know I was not gay but soon realized that it's not the issue. When I told my nephew I was crossdressing, he is gay and has a wonderful partner, he said he thought it was wonderful and was so supportive. He never asked about sexual preference. Having said that I would have to echo the thought that there will be those who try to harber misguided feelings in all houses.
Will I change my sexual desires? Who knows, because I sure don't but if I do it is my business and not the general public.

Huggs Keli

[Marissa Anne]

What is the big deal? Gay, lesbian, bi...so what?

OK, but I get the general point here: the claim is that there are some people who are TG who don't feel comfortable about sex between two people of the same gender, is that it?

If that's the case, I expect that its an anomaly, and that anyone feeling that way should take time for significant introspection to figure out exactly why they feel that way, until such point as they reach the conclusion that it doesn't matter.

If someone wants to make the point that the T part of GLBT isn't necessarily related to sexual preference, then fine. But that's an academic point really. From the posts I've read, the majority of crossdressers on the forum consider themselves "not gay" which I interpret to mean "prefer women as sexual partners". OK, so at the same time, most crossdressers I've seen post here often refer to their female persona roughly equal to their male persona.

As I describe myself to myself at this moment in time, I have a discrete male and female personality neither of which I'm willing to part with. I'm in a monogamous 17-year marriage to a woman, and there's no reason or desire to change that.

So what part is gay and what part is hetero? How do I decide which is which? If I propose that I'm "not gay", what does that mean? What part of me loves my wife and what part doesn't? The answer is all of me loves my wife. So if that means my female persona is gay, then so be it.

As for mtf-tg/cd or whatever you want to call yourself, I highly doubt that there are many that have not contemplated, much less excited by the possibilities of having their female persona be made love to by a man. If you're "grossed out" by that concept, let me suggest that you don't knock it until you've tried it.

Bottom line: stop worrying about labelling yourself and enjoy life. If you've got some religious requirement preventing you from accepting non-hetero lifestyles, there's still time to stop going to the church you're at and start being spiritual in your own way instead of listening to someone else's drivel.

Marissa

[Lorileah]

Willing to fight for what? What kind of "support" do you want? What do you think you're "entitled to" that you haven't already got? AFAIK, it's not illegal to CD in Denver, so can you explain what you're talking about here?:doh:

How about the right to be employed and keep your job when you are a TG person (still isn't a law). How about being treated as a human (don't give the BS that that already happens even in the law enforcement community). How about changing people's illogical ideas about how TG's are perverts or clowns. We can't do that when there is a stigma attached to being TG (don't tell me there isn't). But when we go out we are victims of hate and vilification.

What kind of support do I want? How about we put a stop to the stereotypes that are perpetuated by the media. The type of stereotypes that ethnic groups no longer allow in movies or television. The type of stereotype that portrayed June Cleaver 50 years ago. The kind of stereotype that says certain religious group are all a certain way (ok that one has re-arisen recently but with a different religion).

The last ENDA did not cover TG's because even Barney Frank said he could not get enough support and adding TG's would have sunk the bill before it even got to the president's desk.

What do I want? I want the ability of even the most closeted here to be able to stand up and say "I wear dresses, so what?" to the world. We cannot get that by throwing our hands in the air and doing what you do. Not giving a damn and saying "we can't do that why waste your time?"

I don't mind a devil's advocate but you just don't even care. You like the status quo. Well status quo is never good enough. If we remain complacent we will wither and die. We become victims of a herd mentality. If life is so good as you seem to think it is, why then do so many people here end up divorced. Why do teenagers who are questioning why they do this consider suicide? Why do some succeed in suicide because they believe everyone is like you and no one will help them? Why do people fear loss of job and family if they "come out"? Do you ever wonder how many people here are in severe depression resorting to alcohol or drugs? Do you ever wonder how many consider suicide because they feel like they cannot be accepted in society?

What do I want? I want to be able to walk down the street and not have teenagers taunt me (see Deb's post last week about that). I want to be able to live my life as a TS and not have some jerk kill me and then claim it was some sort of "rage". Many places in the US still use that arguement. Denver is a big pond. TG's can and do function here with less hassle but in BF middle America they can't.

It is not just laws we want. Laws are broken every day with little or no consequence. Most of what I have listed above hasn't even occurred for the race, creed, color people of this land. So we should let them fight the fight and glean the rewards?

Too much to ask?

[Misty is Kindafem]

Can Lorileah borrow your "Amazing" logo for a minute?

Well said Lori, do I even need to point out that for all intents and purposes, you appear to rock and rock hard?

and for all intensive porpoises as well.

-Misty

[frederica13]

Totally agree. Have been guilty of this before... but now state that I am not gay (when asked) in a calm manner so as to not add any negative connotations.

[Misty is Kindafem]

So I've mentioned a few times that I've always wanted to be a girl but I didn't start crushing on boys till many years later.

It's kinda ironic really that I was able to accept crossdressing WAY before I was able to accept being gay. In fact, fooling around with actual gay guys totally screwed up my head about dressing. I don't know if you've noticed but the feminine gay man is an endangered species these days. The muscle queens have taken over. Today's fag will literally kick your ass and those guys are not interested in a boy in a dress.

I will never forget when this guy I liked got very rude with me when I asked him if he would like to see me in something sexy. "why would you want to do that?" "I like men!" "if I wanted to be with a woman I would be with a real one". I laughed it off but I was devastated and his words still echo years later.

Straight people have no idea what it's like to have these feelings. You would think that being a CD would clue them in, but until you've been derided by both sides, you don't know what scared and lonely is. I read Kelly's posts and I could cry because she's been there and she's come out of the other side with her head and her finger held high.

I'm a 40 year old fag, ...and my hottest sexual fantasy is to be somebody's wife. That's pathetic as fantasies go, but it's the sad truth.

I'm not flamboyant, I'm feminine. I'm not bi curious' I'm gay.

But based on my experience I would come out to a room full of straight men (hello!) before I would come out to the singles night crowd at the Manhole.

I had a point but I can't remember what the hell it was,

-Misty

[KarenS]

You are so right Lorileah. I have sort of noticed the same thing but had not formed enough of an idea to put into words. As a CD/TG, I'm different than society expects me to be too. But, I am me and I don't have to conform to the steroetype image society wants for me to be hapy. Just as those of the GLBT community are free to be different too. I'd be a hypocrit not to accept them as they are.

[Rachel Morley]

I don't have any activist type things to contribute, but I would like to make a couple of comments as I see things. :2c:


No, this is a question on how we expect the LGBT community to support us in getting more respect and rights and then so many of the posts make a point that they are not gay and want nothing to do with being associated with the gays.
Speaking personally, I spend a fairly reasonable amount of time in the LGBT community (obviously around gay people) and in fact, for the whole of this weekend, I'll be immersed in one of the biggest Gay Pride Events in in the world, San Francisco Pride. I'll even be marching in the Sunday Parade, maybe even on TV (?) ... but I totally get what you're saying. I do believe that a lot of CDers don't consider themselves part of the LGBT community, yet they are happy to take a free ride as the "T" part of the community's coat tails when it suits them.


The last ENDA did not cover TG's because even Barney Frank said he could not get enough support and adding TG's would have sunk the bill before it even got to the president's desk.
Yes, I know ... mega depressing stuff eh? ... this clearly demonstrates that we have long way to go regarding uneducated people's perceptions of us. :sad:



I don't know if you've noticed but the feminine gay man is an endangered species these days. The muscle queens have taken over. Today's fag will literally kick your ass and those guys are not interested in a boy in a dress.
Indeed I have noticed! As I said, I'll be at SF Pride all weekend and I absolutely know that by far, the majority of gay guys I know I'll see, will be masculine looking through and through. Feminine looking, girly gay boys are in the minority IMHO.

Btw Misty, are you going to the DVG Summer BBQ party in Concord tomorrow night? If you are, I'll see you there! :)

[PaulaJaneThomas]

I think it's a good idea to have friendly ties with LGB groups because homophobia and transphobia are often linked. And of course gay bars offer a safe a friendly environment for transgender people to socialise in. As far as campaigning for transgender rights goes I can only offer an English perspective and in this country the T in LGBT stands for tokenism. No good has ever come out of it nor IMHO will it ever. Gender identity is no more linked to sexual orientation that race, religion etc are. It's time to say "thanks but no thanks" and stand on our own.

[deja true]

It's kinda ironic really that I was able to accept crossdressing WAY before I was able to accept being gay. In fact, fooling around with actual gay guys totally screwed up my head about dressing. I don't know if you've noticed but the feminine gay man is an endangered species these days. The muscle queens have taken over. Today's fag will literally kick your ass and those guys are not interested in a boy in a dress.

-Misty

And, it seems to me, that the part of the LGB community that cares about the politics of it all (like here, most prolly don't...), are actually embarrassed by having us as allies... Being dumped by Franks and the HRC in the last ENDA debacle is a pretty good indicator of that.

But still, I think we need the connection with the rest of the gender variant communities. Not that we're such a tiny minority, (just the opposite in fact), but because we're like the scrawny, undersized little brother that keeps getting picked on in school. Eventually we'll blossom, but in order to make it through to that time, we're gonna need a guardian angel (even a reluctant one) with some muscle.

:straightface:

[Nicki B]

Lorileah,

Now that is a hard question, I have nothing again a gay person. But I don't feel as if I am gay because I like to dress as a women, sweetheart I have been crossdressing since I was 14 and at 70 see no need to change. It is me and nothing more then that.


I'm not gay.

I think you're both missing the point. Some of us identify as gay, some of us don't - but what we all suffer from is discrimination. The LGB community has stood up and fought back - atm, the majority of us seem content to hide?

We can learn from them - we can follow on their coat-tails. But Paula's right (good to see you around :wave: ), we need to stand up for ourselves.

The alternative is that so many continue to live in fear - fear that others may find out, fear of what others may do - fear of what's inside them. That is inherently unhealthy and yet - it's NOT inevitable. The argument that it is, is driven by that fear..

[Jenny Brown]

How about the right to be employed and keep your job when you are a TG person (still isn't a law). How about being treated as a human (don't give the BS that that already happens even in the law enforcement community). How about changing people's illogical ideas about how TG's are perverts or clowns. We can't do that when there is a stigma attached to being TG (don't tell me there isn't). But when we go out we are victims of hate and vilification.

I somewhat anticipated a TG Rambo type of reply like this (not unlike the Rambo speech at the end of "First Blood"). Yawn.
It's all about playing the persecuted victim. It's all about the drama -"we will wither and die if we don't do this..." Yawn.

Guess what? Being TG doesn’t qualify you for special treatment. As well as being a TG activist doesn’t qualify you for accolades from your “community“ (and I use that term quite loosely).

Why do you need to seek approval and/or validation from every stranger in the world? You will be treated by society as you present yourself with your appearance and attitude. If you look like a clown, you will be treated as such. If you act like a leper, people will treat you like one. If you act like you have a chip on your shoulder, you will have problems.

Do you want acceptance and equal treatment? Look at what genetic women who are your age, are wearing and wear that. I don't care if you've got a cute butt and want to show it off or really nice legs - a miniskirt is NOT to be worn at most places. Mostly wear a smile and blend in - draw no extra attention to yourself, and you’ll be just fine.

But…But…
Yes, I know... It's all about the unending drama of the TG crusade…:doh:

[deja true]

But…But…
Yes, I know... It's all about the unending drama of the TG crusade…:doh:


It's a dirty job, but somebody has to do it...


I kinda like the crusade. We get to be damsels in the tower, but also we can be stealthy sappers undermining the bastion walls of ignorance!

(Played too many RPG's,huh?)

:)

[Lorileah]

I think you're both missing the point. Some of us identify as gay, some of us don't - but what we all suffer from is discrimination. The LGB community has stood up and fought back - atm, the majority of us seem content to hide?

We can learn from them - we can follow on their coat-tails. But Paula's right (good to see you around :wave: ), we need to stand up for ourselves.

The alternative is that so many continue to live in fear - fear that others may find out, fear of what others may do - fear of what's inside them. That is inherently unhealthy and yet - it's NOT inevitable. The argument that it is, is driven by that fear..

That is the point exactly. And as Deja noted we are the redheaded step children. Many say that they go to gay bars because they are accepted. I think it is more tolerated on many levels. But what if tomorrow Gays and Lesbians were totally accepted into the mainstream? By being satisfied letting them do the work, we would then be on our own. It would be very hard to start working where they left off if we just sit and wait for that to happen. If we work to be partners with the G&L community, supporting what they need and want along with OUR needs and wants, then when the doors open they will carry us along with them.

As was pointed out by Trannie T in her thread you don't have to march or protest to be a part of the movement. You can support from the safety of your home. Support the end of DOMA and DADT. Support ENDA and Hate crime legislation. This isn't "Gay rights" It is "Human rights." But by continually distancing ourselves from the gays, we may find we missed the bus.

Everyone have a great weekend.

[docrobbysherry]

Being CD/TG has SPECIAL stigmas attached to it.:sad:

Thots of being a "sick pervert" need to be overcome! :doh:

I'm talking about how I sometimes think of myself!:brolleyes:

We ALL need to get by THAT hurdle, BEFORE we can take on the world!:Angry3:

For those of u that have, U have my undying respect!:hugs:

[AmandaM]

I didn't miss the point, I was playing around. Seriously, the gay movement leaves TG's out a lot. Barney Frank couldn't get his bill passed, so he tossed us under the bus. Some friend. I owe him jack.

[Jenny Brown]

It is "Human rights." But by continually distancing ourselves from the gays, we may find we missed the bus.

That bus already left. Nobody wanted to ride it. :straightface:

[Miranda-E]

Why should enda have kept the TG and not passed ?
TG weren't fighting the fight. So again why should the gay community take a total lose to carry people that aren't fighting? Isn't some progress and another bill later better than losing all together and having to start over from the beginning?

Want rights? well get out and do some of the work. Don't blame the gay movement for not carrying you, when you distance yourselves so much. Many crossdressers love the safety of gay clubs on friday night, but go to and support anti-gay churches on sunday and vote against gay issues on tuesday.

[Toni_Lynn]

One has to realise that being a crossdresser is multifaceted in terms of sexual orientation. I think it is perfectly fine to say that one and CDer and is not gay. Its not like saying such is a dismissal of or a prejudice against gays. It is akin to saying, I am a Protestant Christian, but I'm not an evangelical, or I am a Jew, but I'm not Hasidic, or I am a Moslem, but not Sunni.

Being a CDer and stating that one is not gay should not in any way be synonymous with saying I am a CDer and I don't support gays. If one truly has the right to be free and be who they are, there should be no issue here.

I have to related back to my own experience of some 9 years ago when I came out to a lesbian co-worker. She was very supportive and asked me to join up with the local chapter of a national gay rights group. I did so quite willingly after being told up front that it was no issue that I was not gay. I even went on to do the website for the chapter. I went on public speaking events with the group and addressed university classes on gender diversity. he acceptance and support was mutual and it was decided that the group did more to bolster their efforts for the T community. It was then that things went pear shaped. We, soon found ourselves ghetto-ised, and set apart from the rest of the group. Our committees and efforts and small group sessions where strictly T in nature. We were no longer welcome in the general mix. An apartheid like attitude settled upon the group. Even if you were gay but also T in some way, you were relegated to the T areas of the group. Quite honestly the only people who had it worse were people who were bi. The scorn heaped upon them was massive.

Before long I left the group because I got the feeling, 'we ain't you and you ain't us.'

This hasn't made me prejudiced toward gays. I think it just lead me to the conclusion that bigots and misconceptions exist regardless of orientation.

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

[Lorileah]

[B]I somewhat anticipated a TG Rambo type of reply like this (not unlike the Rambo speech at the end of "First Blood"). Yawn.
It's all about playing the persecuted victim. It's all about the drama -"we will wither and die if we don't do this..." Yawn.

Sorry I bore you, here let me put on my sequined gown, platform shoes and glittery makeup. How does the pink wig look? Now let me go to the Pride parade, make an ass of myself and get on Fox news. Now everyone knows we are clowns and can't be serious. BTW I don't care much for Rambo, I prefer being Robert Duvall


Guess what? Being TG doesn’t qualify you for special treatment. As well as being a TG activist doesn’t qualify you for accolades from your “community“ (and I use that term quite loosely).

Not special, just equal. Did anyone ask for a pass? Nope, just the right to be a human. If we are accepted as viable members of the community then the special things you refer to would not be needed. But until then, the laws will be there.


Why do you need to seek approval and/or validation from every stranger in the world? You will be treated by society as you present yourself with your appearance and attitude.
I disagree. I have seen transgendered people treated like pariahs on the street. Children are pulled away and hidden. Adults glare and snarl. These TG's were dressed in everyday clothing. No big floppy shoes or pancake make-up. We are treated like clowns or perverts because that is what sells news. No one wants to see the TG who has a succesful business on the nightly news. No one wants to see the TS who works three days a week with a charity. Watch the news this weekend. What will the major affiliates focus on? Here we have the Cycle ****s. I guarantee that is who will be shown over the guy in a skort with flats and a ball cap.


If you look like a clown, you will be treated as such. If you act like a leper, people will treat you like one. If you act like you have a chip on your shoulder, you will have problems.

so your solution is let's take the beating. We after all must deserve it? (forgive me Mr & Mrs King, Mr Chavez, Ms Steinem and every activist who have made strides in the last 100 years). Exactly how does a leper act? I didn't know that a bacterial disease would make you act different



Do you want acceptance and equal treatment? Look at what genetic women who are your age, are wearing and wear that. I don't care if you've got a cute butt and want to show it off or really nice legs - a miniskirt is NOT to be worn at most places. Mostly wear a smile and blend in - draw no extra attention to yourself, and you’ll be just fine.

That is not acceptance, that is what people here call passing. Light skinned Afro-Americans did that 70 years ago. What you see as acceptance is blending. You should not have to fit a specific profile to be accepted.


But…But…
Yes, I know... It's all about the unending drama of the TG crusade:doh:

It is about the unending HUMAN campaign. No one should be above or below another.

[Misty is Kindafem]

Many crossdressers love the safety of gay clubs on friday night, but go to and support anti-gay churches on sunday and vote against gay issues on tuesday.

...and in one sentence you hit the nail right on its pointy little head.

Brava sister.

I am semi closeted but at the very least I still confront people on their prop hate yapping and other 'phobic remarks.

-Misty

[Jenny Brown]

so your solution is let's take the beating. We after all must deserve it?
Solution? Nope, I didn't offer a solution, because there's no problem requiring a solution. The "problem" doesn't exist.
I just gave common sense. It's not exactly rocket science. :heehee:


That is not acceptance, that is what people here call passing. Light skinned Afro-Americans did that 70 years ago. What you see as acceptance is blending. You should not have to fit a specific profile to be accepted.
Ok, I guess this means what you really you want is unconditional societal acceptance to walk down the street in your pink micro mini, 44DD boobs, and 6" heels? Sorry, normal people in society don't dress that way. But hey, good luck with that. I really hope your stay in the ICU isn't that long.

It is about the unending HUMAN campaign. No one should be above or below another.
Above or below? Wow, the "drama" is more intense than I'd imagined. Ummmm, No...it really is all about the TG activist "drama"...."fighting the good fight"...yadda...yadda...
That's ok, I know you're in crusader mode, I don't expect you to admit it.:heehee:

wait...is that the theme music from "ROCKY" that I hear? And now - back to your regularly scheduled "drama".

[sometimes_miss]

I don't think there's anything homophobic about being right up front about saying we're not gay. After all, it's quite confusing to the outside world; we're dressing in ways that are designed to attract men. Why wouldn't people assume we're gay? Everything points in that direction.
So, all we're doing is trying to make things clear. If it is over emphasized, well, it's because there are a lot of people out there that no matter what we say, believe that we're just in denial and really want a guy. So sure, maybe we have to be a little 'over the top' to get ourselves understood.

I'm not gay. I have gay co workers, they are very nice people. I enjoy working with them. And I would hang out with them but don't want them to get the wrong idea (yes, that's happened once in the past, and it was difficult to fix the situation).
I'm not gay.
There, was that so bad?

[Lorileah]

The "problem" doesn't exist.


what color is the sky in your world? Transgendered people are treated exactly like you think they should be treated, as freaks and weirdos meant to be closeted and unseen by your so called normal people


Ok, I guess this means what you really you want is unconditional societal acceptance to walk down the street in your pink micro mini, 44DD boobs, and 6" heels? Sorry, normal people in society don't dress that way. But hey, good luck with that. I really hope your stay in the ICU isn't that long.

If that is what someone wants, why does it bother you? Exactly how does that take food from your mouth, money from your pocket, oxygen from your lungs? And the problem you don't see you describe very well in that last sentence. Why should we worry about someone beating us up when we are just living our lives. Your definition of "normal" is not everyone's definition. What are your delineations? Your standard deviation?


Above or below? Wow, the "drama" is more intense than I'd imagined. Ummmm, No...it really is all about the TG activist "drama"...."fighting the good fight"...yadda...yadda...
That's ok, I know you're in crusader mode, I don't expect you to admit it.:heehee:

wait...is that the theme music from "ROCKY" that I hear? And now - back to your regularly scheduled "drama".

I'll admit it. To paraphrase, if not me, who? If not now, when? You can choose to live your life in the dark and in fear. You can choose to be silent while people live in fear and some die. It is your choice. I on the other hand, choose to attempt to make my life better and hopefully get one more person to stop, think and say "Hmmm. Maybe there is a different path". Guess I won't be seeing you at the rally this weekend?

Still not a Sly Stallone fan....play Flight of the Valkyries for me instead please

[Nicki B]

Jenny,

It's not the first time I've seen people play the 'I hate myself, so let's see if I can get other trans-folk to beat up on me' game...


What is the point that you're making? 'The bus has already left', so we can't do anything?

You only have to wait for the next one, it'll be along anytime now. But if you don't want to ride on it, then that's fine, too. ;)

[Jenny Brown]

Guess I won't be seeing you at the rally this weekend?
No, you sure won't. And don't be calling me to bail you out of jail when you get arrested for disturbing the peace! :D

and remember...don't bend over to pick up the soap in the jail shower...:heehee:

[Miranda-E]

and remember...don't bend over to pick up the soap in the jail shower...:heehee:


Showing your true colours Jenny.

[vivianann]

We need to get dressed, and go out and mingle with society just like the women did in the 50's and 60's when they started wearing pants, I know it is easier said than done for most peaple, but that is what I am doing now and it is working well for me, yes society has some preconcieved idea's that does not fit us, but I have been gently setting them strait. in my experience of going out in public dressed I have converted peaple to accept us who otherwise would not have. Now if I was wearing fetish gear I am sure it would be difficult to gain acceptance. If we present ourselves well than I think society will eventually come around to accepting us more and more. if there is discrimination then we should seek legal grievance, I would. I know some of you will dissagree with me ( and that is fine ) but you will not find me marching in a pride parade, if there was a strait pride parade I would not be marching in that one either. I do believe we are free to dress as we wish if done in taste, because I do all the time and peaple accept me as I am and I am free to be me now because of that. Yes there are some jerks out there, and there will always be jerks, or haters. I know my rights and I exert my rights to dress how I wish, and if anybody stands in my way they will get hurt.

[Sammy777]

I didn't offer a solution, because there's no problem
The "problem" doesn't exist. :heehee:

Well, if your not part of the solution you ARE part of the problem.
Maybe you should get your head out of the sand [or where ever else it may be hiding :D] and take a look around.



No, you won't be calling me out of jail ..... and bend over to pick up the soap in the jail shower... :heehee:

At least we now know where you are coming from Jenny :D
At least there is computer access, so it must be minimum security then. Right? :lol2:

[Kaz]

Seems to be high testosterone levels here girls...:heehee:

Having just read the thread and having not been part of the "build"... we are back in the good old territory of misunderstandings and different motivations I think?

Don't want to defend Jenny and get attacked by the bigger group (I have read a lot of your contributions and have grown to like you all!!:hugs:), BUT

She makes a point (albeit in a kind of aggressive way), that if we blend in (?pass?) we will possible be more accepted, as we will conform to socially accepted "norms". Some GGs agonise over this... what to wear? my three daughters certainly do! They want to stand out but they also want to conform. For those of us who wish to "pass", this is central to our motivation and thinking.

Now there is another motivation.. the right to be a guy in whatever I want to wear... the activist movement... The point that was raised was that this could be seen as... So I wear a pink leotard, badly advised wig, fishnets and 7 inch heels (:eek:) to make a point?

Now to get back to a previous point.... is a GM CD dressed inappropriately for the situation really representative of the CD "community" as a whole?

I suspect not...

So maybe the real point and central issue that we should be debating is HOW should we be actively representing our rights/how we want to be accepted? Do we get on someone else's "bus" and hope to gain ground by association, or do we make our own case, on our own terms, and in our own way?

I am not wishing to ignore anything that has been acheived by everyone so far... there are true stars out there that I stand in awe at!

But the experiences of Debs and Sheila in Yorkshire (England) recently highlight the realities of even "little old england"...

So what am I saying...? Let's debate what we do to make change. Why waste time beating each other up? I don't think that is a sensible approach.

Look for the positive intention in people and you will find it!

:love::love::love::love::drink:

[AmandaM]

Why should enda have kept the TG and not passed ?
TG weren't fighting the fight. So again why should the gay community take a total lose to carry people that aren't fighting? Isn't some progress and another bill later better than losing all together and having to start over from the beginning?

Want rights? well get out and do some of the work. Don't blame the gay movement for not carrying you, when you distance yourselves so much. Many crossdressers love the safety of gay clubs on friday night, but go to and support anti-gay churches on sunday and vote against gay issues on tuesday.

Don't try to say we should help the gay movement either when they are no friends of ours. LGB doesn't care about T's.

[Sara Jessica]

She makes a point (albeit in a kind of aggressive way), that if we blend in (?pass?) we will possible be more accepted, as we will conform to socially accepted "norms".

I thought of the same thing for a split second, then reality kicked in.

Anyone who knows me around here understands that my philosophy when I go out and about is to blend in the best I can. I am also highly confident. So if I subscribe to the theory that if we simply blend in there is no "problem", I shouldn't have any issues, correct? Then why should I use whether or not I get laughed at, gawked at, commented upon in a negative way, whatever, as one of the measures as to how an outing went?

Should going out and simply being ourselves be reserved for those who can (hate this word...) "pass" 100% like Jenny clearly can?

Why is it socially unacceptable to verbally abuse and/or laugh/gawk/sneer at anyone who is of a racial minority yet with us we're fair game?

And this doesn't even speak of the potential for violence which exists against women in general and is heightened against the TG minority. Oh, I get it, by blending or passing, this ceases to become an issue.

Jenny's vitriol is not about blending, Jenny's just being antagonistic, seemingly Jenny's modus operandi across most of Jenny's posts.

[Nicki B]

LGB doesn't care about T's.

IME, a lot do. I've been defended vigorously, many times, even when it wasn't necessary - and often made to feel included as part of a community.

There may be a few antis - but generally, LGB folk see the discrimination we suffer, too, and respond to it as a shared offence? :)



Jenny's vitriol is not about blending, Jenny's just being antagonistic, seemingly Jenny's modus operandi across most of Jenny's posts.

But that doesn't require you to bite back.. ;)

[AmandaM]

You're right. I was just venting. Some gays do, some don't. I guess it's like anyone else.

[Lorileah]

back to the original question.

Should we not be more visible and more vocal in getting what seems to be the common thread on these boards, to be accepted.


I don't see hiding in plain sight as a viable way to accomplish this. Is it the idea to infiltrate until everyone just says "oh yeah, we see that all the time."? That will appease not even half the TG's here. I have said it before, you can blend easily. Don't wear a skirt or dress though. Most the clothing now is androgynous anyway.


Kaz I hope the hormone remark was all in jest. Being meek and not being vocal is not a "female" trait.

[Misty is Kindafem]

Great post Vivianann,

You straight people are okay. ;-)

I guess we all march in our own way. The important thing is to be compassionate and try to understand each other.

I mean really, at the end of the day, we're all human and we all have so much more in common than our petty differences.

-Misty
Jack Daniels is my new boyfriend.

[battybattybats]

Don't try to say we should help the gay movement either when they are no friends of ours. LGB doesn't care about T's.

Some don't.. but I get more flack from CD-hating HBSs then I ever do from GLBs!

And if Gays don't care at all about us where did all the anti-crossdressing laws across the western world go? Oh thats right, they matched for removing them, campained for removing them, paid for the lobbying and the banners and the phone calls and court cases that removed them.

Why did they do that if they didn't care about us?

[Deedee Dupree]

OK, back to two of the issues, I was getting ready to play "dunk the evil clown" but reason prevailed this time.

Here's an edited excerpt from another thread. I think being visible and vocal is important and sometimes it's impossible for me to be "invisible".... so I make the best of it as follows;

Passing:

I can pass once in a while, but within a year of coming out I realized that passing, aside from it's practical advantages, didn't matter so much to me. Most of the time, but not always, when I am out in a crowd I dress and act as feminine as possible, but I will be read by many.

I discovered that an important part of the satisfaction I get out of crossdressing is being seen by others as a person who is happy being what I appear to be to them. And if one of the people who read me is curious and would like to qualify what they are thinking by chatting with "that happy person over there", I would be delighted to tell them all about it, satisfy their curiosity, confirm or amend their observations and validate the way I feel. That's satisfying and good PR.

With respect to the community making progress and my activist inclinations in general terms;

My method of achieving a specific goal, something that is in my best interest as a TG/CD, is to do it the easiest way. In this case I will support any group or groups working toward that goal who have the most clout, who are most likely to succeed in the least amount of time. How I fit in or what my opinion of any group's "liabilities" may be is beside the point.

dd

[BarbiB]

It's the acronym l-g-b and "T". Although it is "Transgendered"... it could just as easily be Transvestite ..... or even Twink among other things. It's about THE COALITION.
Coalitions do not have to be harmonious loving syncopatic and harmonious in all beliefs, respects and things phylisophical. Quite the opposite actually. The participants owe each other nothing, and are entitled to maintain their own individual beliefs and values. They simply unite to defend similarly unpopular views against what is usually an oppressive mainstream majority which may or may not be harmonious in itself. (Think of that mess in Iraq for instance).
And then it's not just "gays" and CD/TV/TG...
What about the other "freaks" on the fringe? The fetishists, BDSM'rs, the Rubberists, the Leather crowd, the furry's, bears, age regressors (adult babies), scat and watersports, foot fetishists... etc ad nauseum...
Do we owe them all our respect? Or can we dis some of that?
Lots of these things are a real turn off, but I don't give a hoot what they do behind closed doors. It's TOLERANCE.... IMHO... We got it or we don't. And we really don't have to buy into any or all of it. That's FREEDOM.

[Fab Karen]

"common sense"- it was once common sense for a black girl to "know her place" & sit on the back of the bus, but instead she stood up for herself as a human being deserving of respect. Some people back then also would've said "the problem doesn't exist" to her & others standing up for themselves, but that still doesn't make it so. "Don't make waves" is the rallying cry of people who remain stuck.

[Sara Jessica]

But that doesn't require you to bite back.. ;)

Not necessarily, a blanket statement that the community doesn't have a problem is one which needs to be called out, even such an opinion shared by a very small percentage of our population.


back to the original question.

Should we not be more visible and more vocal in getting what seems to be the common thread on these boards, to be accepted.

I don't see hiding in plain sight as a viable way to accomplish this. Is it the idea to infiltrate until everyone just says "oh yeah, we see that all the time."? That will appease not even half the TG's here. I have said it before, you can blend easily. Don't wear a skirt or dress though. Most the clothing now is androgynous anyway.

Since so few of us truly can blend into the masses to the point where we're practically invisible, I see efforts such as mine to blend in as being a way to demonstrate to those who encounter me that I'm just like any other woman out there. I think it has the same effect in that I am seen, I am perceived, and each time that gives people out there another chance to evaluate what it is they think when they see a transgendered individual.

[PaulaJaneThomas]

I'm not going to involve myself in all this personal bickering.

The thorny subject of passing/not passing is an old one and on the face of it seems something of a Catch-22 situation. However this pre-supposes that merely being seen out and about will somehow increase acceptance. That is highly unlikely IMHO. Acceptance really only comes from interacting positively with others so that they learn that we're just ordinary people.

[battybattybats]

On the subject of our relation to the rest of GLBT I raise this quote from:
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/11750/why-do-i-do-what-i-do


I have always known GLBT folks and had friends in the community. I must admit that not until my child brought me in as a member of this community did I fully understand its diversity. What I have also came to understand is that much of the community seems to be at odds with others in the community. Many times I experience a sense of the LGB feeling separate and very different from the T which honestly puzzles me. When I hear the stories from the LGB of their childhood experiences, many of them are interchangeable with the childhood experiences of the T. The stories revolve around words like different, ashamed, sad, guilty, lonely, isolated, ridiculed, and bullied...the list is endless really. The point is, if you feel that any or all of those words apply to your childhood experience then you have firsthand knowledge of what it is to be transgender. That is the bond that the LGB has with the T, shared experience.

[battybattybats]

No, you sure won't. And don't be calling me to bail you out of jail when you get arrested for disturbing the peace! :D

and remember...don't bend over to pick up the soap in the jail shower...:heehee:

Newsflash. The western world has progressed since the 70's. CDing in public in a pride rally is not likely to lead to an arrest.

[Lorileah]

the original intent here was not can we pass or should we pass. The original intent was should we keep hanging on the coat tails of the G&L movement, who really don't have the same agenda in many cases we should, or should we be more vocal for ourselves?

Many here seem content to be in the shadows and let others do the work but complain about how they are misunderstood or not accepted by their wives and friends.

We are such a diverse group that passing is a small contingent. Here is a link to Niya Blake's thread about a recent rally in SF. I think this more where the TG community needs to go. http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110412

[Nicki B]

Getting people to go on marches certainly demonstrates how many of us there are - or at least how many are willing to show themselves? That's perhaps more important first to show each other, rather than the general public? :D

But the primary obstacle is still, as a community, our own fear - people have to be helped to learn that they can step outside and show their feminine selves (they don't even have to 'out' themselves to do it)? :)

I think the first steps are events like SoCo, Be-All, Fantasia Fair, Sparkle..

[Jenny Brown]

Getting people to go on marches certainly demonstrates how many of us there are - or at least how many are willing to show themselves? That's perhaps more important first to show each other, rather than the general public?
Bottom line - there's still way too much miscommunication, misunderstanding, whatever...within this "community" (and again, I use that term loosely) to even begin to think about "rallying the troops" in a united effort to accomplish anything. And, pointing the finger and slinging sarcasm back and forth isn't going to make anyone look cool or change anything.

[AmandaM]

Some don't.. but I get more flack from CD-hating HBSs then I ever do from GLBs!

And if Gays don't care at all about us where did all the anti-crossdressing laws across the western world go? Oh thats right, they matched for removing them, campained for removing them, paid for the lobbying and the banners and the phone calls and court cases that removed them.

Why did they do that if they didn't care about us?

Uh, I said I was venting. Must be my time of the month.

[battybattybats]

But the primary obstacle is still, as a community, our own fear - people have to be helped to learn that they can step outside and show their feminine selves (they don't even have to 'out' themselves to do it)? :)

I think the first steps are events like SoCo, Be-All, Fantasia Fair, Sparkle..

Big events in big cities do help... people in big cities.
Unless they get national news coverage that reaches into regional areas and the suburbs.

To help the broader community I think we need:

* National and international media coverage of us active and positive
* Public role models who can stay in the public eye, and enough of them so as not to allow any one mistake to make us all look bad
* Already respected figures to come out to inspire others that it is possible
* More social networking to provide support to one another on a personal level to help encourage one another through the difficulties of coming out and living out

And while having TG-specific events and the like can be a really good step for us we need to keep in mind the GLB folk, because we owe them for much of our progress to this day, because some of us are GLB anyway and because it's the right thing to support their causes anyway. But putting some primary focus on our own people and putting prode into ourselves may be a good idea.

Anyone know what day it was in august that Comptons Cafeteria Riot took place? As many gay-pride marches celebrate Stonewall maybe we should celebrate Compton?

[sterling12]

Well put Lori! I go into clubs frequented by lots of different people. You know what I finally figured out? To go around and announce to other folks, "I'm not gay, or I'm not ____, or ____; it only makes you look like a bigot! The old adage, think it's from Shakespeare: "The lady doth protest too much," seems to apply.

Can we agree that we are ALL Marginalized People? Inotherwords, people whom society would shun, vilify, condemn, and possibly harm or murder, and all because we are DIFFERENT! Now, I think we share that attribute in common, and it's a huge one! We SHOULD be able to stand together, just with this one common thread. We need the political clout that our combined numbers can provide....if, we stand together.

But, if we fail to show tolerance; if we fail to recognize our common goals, then we risk the punishment of gathering intolerance from other people. We need to stop proclaiming how "straight," we are. Lets face it, unless someone is sticking their hand up your dress, it's not important! Anyway, nobody else cares, so why waste precious oxygen with worthless pronouncements?

peace and Love, Joanie

[battybattybats]

As the raid in Texas on a Gay Bar celebrating the anniversary of Stonewall targeted, according to witnesses, the effeminate men there it seems that we still share together a common prejudice against us based substantially on gender-expression.

[Jenny Brown]

As the raid in Texas on a Gay Bar celebrating the anniversary of Stonewall targeted, according to witnesses, the effeminate men there it seems that we still share together a common prejudice against us based substantially on gender-expression.
And this is surprising in what way?:doh:

[PaulaJaneThomas]

As the raid in Texas on a Gay Bar celebrating the anniversary of Stonewall targeted, according to witnesses, the effeminate men there it seems that we still share together a common prejudice against us based substantially on gender-expression.

That's the third world for you - still rooted in Medieval attitudes and beliefs.

[battybattybats]

And this is surprising in what way?:doh:

For those who insist there is no connection between the GLB issues and T issues (and people from all sides have held such views) then it is surprising because it demonstrates the connection.

For me it's not surprising but an important point to raise for those who would be surprised. After all this topic is about that connection or lack thereof and it's obligations or lack thereof.

[Jenny Brown]

That's the third world for you - still rooted in Medieval attitudes and beliefs.
Texas is a third world country? Who knew? :doh:

[PaulaJaneThomas]

Texas is a third world country? Who knew? :doh:

Sorry, I didn't realise it was a secret ;)

[tricia_uktv]

Hmm,

No, as GLBT we are at the T at the end. We need to be higher up in the chain. We need to take responsibility for being TG, get it out into the comminity, be ourselves, be as proud and as confident as they had to be. We do not need to hang on the coat-tails of the gay community and while we do we will get nowhere.

Lecture over.

Life is fun :)

Hugs