Sadness over two women competing

[JoAnne Wheeler]

Sisters: I am in a quandry again - when I think about divorce so I can dress when I want to and live as JoAnne when I want to, I think about so many of you who are divorced or are unhappy with your present situation. I have read the threads that you have posted about being sad; being alone; just plain unhappiness.

Yes, I have also read about those who have gone out on their own and seem to be doing alright. Do you wish that you were still married or had a SO in your life ?

I have also read about you Sisters who are so fortunate to have spouses or SO's who love you and accept you as you are with no strings attached - you make me so envious.

I am trying to live within my Spouse established boundaries. I am unhappy limited being confined within those boundaries. I do not want SRS. I would like to spend the majority of my time living as JoAnne (or at leasat a lot more than I do now)

My Spouse tells me that I am living in a dream world - she says that all I can focus on is JoAnne - I suppose I am guilty to some extent

I really do not want to be alone and unhappy - at present, I seem to be married and unhappy.

Am I living in the Pink Fog ? JoAnne has blossomed within the last year - maybe too much, I don't know. As JoAnne has blossomed, my marriage has suffered.

In fact, I seem to be stuck in that gray area of not knowing what to do.

I have read where many of you have opined that marriage comes first. But if you are so deep in the Fog that you have nothing to give, what do I do ?

How do you get out of the Pink Fog ? JoAnne is pounding on one side of me and my Spouse is pounding (and about fed up) on the other side of me.

JoAnne wants to express herself. My Spouse says that I have spent way too much money on JoAnne the past 18 months. My Spouse says that I spend too much time thinking about JoAnne.

I have tried in the past to keep JoAnne under control, but the "bitch" has run wild.

What can I do ? I know that if I wind up all alone that I could be even more unhappy, and yet I have to live (only existed right now) with these two women arguing for my time.

Hate to bother you dear Sisters on a Monday morning, but this is on my plate and you are the only ones I can spill out my guts to.

JoAnne Wheeler

[Miranda09]

Hi JoAnne. Not sure how much advice I can give but what I could say is try to remember that you have loved ones who need as much time as your fem self. I have observed that many tend to get so wrapped up with their fem selves that they forget about their SO's and others who might be affected. No one can tell you how to divide your time. That's something only you can address, but it sounds like you have an accepting wife and I think she deserves as much time and attention as JoAnne. Hope this helps a little. :)

[Di]

JoAnne, I worry if you make the decision to be alone so you can be JoAnne whenever you want...that will leave you feeling empty, sad and very lonely.
I wish you could find a balance where you both are happy.:love:
Remember this......even though your wife is not as accepting as you may want...she is accepting and others would love to have WHAT YOU HAVE:love:

[TGMarla]

Ask yourself this question, JoAnne: Other than simply being able to dress and look like JoAnne, and feel the simple comfort of being when you are having JoAnne time, what benefit does she give to you? Are you able to function normally as JoAnne? Can you go about your everyday business as JoAnne? Are your relatives okay with it? I guess I'm saying that even with your wife no longer in the picture, you still have only conditional freedom with JoAnne, unless you declare yourself and transition. It's still a world with boundaries within which you will have to live. And you will have that somewhat expanded jail without someone with whom you have invested a large part of your life. Here's another question: Is the JoAnne thing the only real sticking point with your relationship with your wife? If it weren't for JoAnne, would you still be having problems with each other?

If the only real benefit you derive from JoAnne is a sense of well being, and the only real problem with you and your wife is JoAnne, then you will not be happier divorced and alone. Your task is to strike the happy medium, whatever that is, so that you can have both in your life. Always remember that your wife has a good point: she didn't marry JoAnne; she married you. And she doesn't necessarily like JoAnne, and probably doesn't want her around.

I know that I'd like for my own wife to accept Marla - lock, stock, and barrell. But that's not likely, especially when she learns just how far I've taken Marla. That would be a load for any woman. I also know that if the roles were reversed, I'd be pretty uncomfortable with the situation. I'd not like it if my wife were parading around looking like a man, nor would I like it if I were she, and my husband were running around looking like a woman. So I understand her discomfort with it all. It goes far beyond simple crossdressing. And crossdressing at this level can be (and often is) a very selfish endeavor.

I often think, "I could be Marla lots more, and be not so hidden if only my wife weren't in the picture!" But I'd also be very lonely, and I know that I don't do so well all on my own. I'm better (way better!) with her than without her.

So get out your scale, dear. You have some weighing of your situation that you need to do. And clear up the fog when you do it, because you need to be thinking clearly when you reason all this out.

[karynspanties]

Well for me, and this is not for everyone and it's just my :2c: but I strongly believe it is better to be single and unhappy then married and unhappy.
If my wife ever told me to scale it back or to just plain stop......I contact a laywer and end the marriage. I know this sounds cold and uncaring, but you only live once and you have to do it as a happy person. Why waste all of that time being miserable? Makes no sense. Maybe you will find an accepting partner right away.....maybe it will take a few years, or maybe you will never find one at all. But atleast you can live as you see fit, not someone elses way. Again, this is how I feel. The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of this station.

[Kimmy55]

As for someone who was seperated from my wife 1 yr ago somewhat due to my being Kimmy and somewhat as to the fact we both had different goals we wanted to fill in our later years I can tell you it does get lonely.We still talk,e-mail,etc from time to time but we have both said that we do get lonely on occasion.She tolerated Kimmy for years and then decided she wanted time to be by herself,which after 30 yrs I can understand.She also knew that I was happier when I was dressed and she wanted me to be happy.There is no common ground and each situation is different.For me I am happy and she says she is,but we do get lomely.

[Diane Elizabeth]

Dear JoAnne, What you stated is almost exactly how I feel. If you stay together with JoAnne between you and your SO then how many people are unhappy. By the same token how many will be unhappy if you are single. there is no way to predict the future results of ones actions now. Maybe everyone will be happier and maybe not. Which ever route you go there will always be your "sisters" here to lend an ear and support. But it is your life that you have to live to the best of your ability. This advice comes from one that can't heed to their own words. I now will shrink back into the closet. Best wishes with your journey. Dy len

[Angel.Marie76]

JoAnne, I don't remember if in another thread something like this has been mentioned, but what about marriage counseling?

My take on this situation is that you both have something to place before the 'judge' if you will, and you're left to give and take until that balance of power can be made. Unfortunately, like everything else in this world, relationships are both happiness and sacrifice. I myself haven't had the best luck finding that balance of energy and give and take.. I've tried to make the sacrifices and it seems like I've always not been repaid in appropriate balancing ways.

A good therapist might then tell you that, gee, I guess you've not made appropriate or 'good' decisions then in regards to your original mediation, and if you wish to correct the situation then you might need to revisit your original balancing conversation and move from there. Of course I'm no certified professional, and my words might be fodder for the shredder by all means. I do wish you the best of luck, the voice of JoAnne /I KNOW/ only from listening to Angel now for the past year, can be so loud it's deafening, and can stir a fog the likes of which can be almost too difficult to walk away from. Based on what I know of you from being on here, at least you have the ability or strength to step aside from 'her' and continue to life your life as a man at times. You should look at that strength and determine from there, if that strength is the same as strength of your love for your wife.

I might weigh these aforementioned variables with one thought in mind, while understanding that this is from the perspective of a TG who's been 'coming out' to everyone: (Some of this is from a therapists perspective for the record)

When fighting the battle of knowing who you are, and BEING who you are or who you want to be, the rest of the world, in whatever perspective it might have, looks on. As those people around you learn about JoAnne, they will have their own perspectives as to how they feel about her. Some will be good, some will be bad. Once you let it be known that JoAnne exists, then you have to accept the reality that there are some in this world that will not accept her existence. You must deal with those interactions every day. In the case of someone who'd come out to anyone and everyone because it is their only path, there will be some gains and some losses, there is nothing that one can really do to control it. In your case, perhaps you've only come out to your wife as a CDer; Kudos to you for the strength to do so. You must keep in mind that she is just another part of the peripheral world around YOU. If you continue down a particular pathway, it will be your wife that will be the casualty that you must be able to turn away from, and be strong enough to not look back. If the gain of JoAnne's near F/T existence is not worth the loss (and it is only you that can make that determination), then you must not let her blind you with her fog.

[Amy Lynn3]

I agree with karyn. I left my wife a year ago and I have been the happiest I have ever been in my life. The cding had nothing to do with the seperation, but why remain in a marriage when you are unhappy ? I stayed too long.
Just a comment about women and being alone. I joined a few online dating sites and you can find all the women you want and many will be happy to have your femme side in the relationship. If you have time and want to, you can met as many ladies per week as you want. I set my limit on two per week. I set my qualifications on the person I was looking for and after the first meeting if they did not fit my bill I moved on to the next one. Just don't waste time, and look after yourself. FYI...I think I met the woman of my dreams about 6 weeks ago. I have told her I like to dress. After spending the weekend with her I can assure you it did not hurt our relationship.
Let me ask you a question I ask myself....do you want to complete your life with it full of drama and being unhappy or do you want to be happy ? Ann Landers said it this way...would your life be better off with or without her. I know this is not the popular opinion, but its my two cents.

[AKAMichelle]

When I went to my therapist last year, I spent 1.5 hours there. Only about 5-10 minutes was spent about crossdressing. I was more adjusted about my crossdressing than I was about the rest of the issues in my marriage.

Don't leave your wife just to be JoAnne. It must be more or you will be making a big mistake. Last year while I was separated I got to dress 24/7 as Michelle. The new wore off and it was just me. You need to do some serious soul searching and find out what is really wrong in your marriage.

I got back with my wife to save on bills and get my oldest son back in college. I am miserable but made that decision to help my son. After I get him handled then I will probably make a very different decision. That of being single. Crossdressing won't be the reason.

[JulieP]

all i will say is to open up lines of communication. you have asked her to accept the fact that you crossdress and to be open minded about it. now ask her how she truely feels about it and most importantly, listen. try to come to an understanding with your wife. let's face it crossdressing can be a pretty big pill to swallow and can be very hard for some to swallow all at once. maybe she will give you one to two nights a week, maybe more maybe less, where you can dress. just think of it as a step forward. just my :2c:

Julie

[TJ Tresa]

Ask yourself this question, JoAnne: Other than simply being able to dress and look like JoAnne, and feel the simple comfort of being when you are having JoAnne time, what benefit does she give to you? Are you able to function normally as JoAnne? Can you go about your everyday business as JoAnne? Are your relatives okay with it? I guess I'm saying that even with your wife no longer in the picture, you still have only conditional freedom with JoAnne, unless you declare yourself and transition. It's still a world with boundaries within which you will have to live. And you will have that somewhat expanded jail without someone with whom you have invested a large part of your life. Here's another question: Is the JoAnne thing the only real sticking point with your relationship with your wife? If it weren't for JoAnne, would you still be having problems with each other?

If the only real benefit you derive from JoAnne is a sense of well being, and the only real problem with you and your wife is JoAnne, then you will not be happier divorced and alone. Your task it to strike the happy medium, whatever that is, so that you can have both in your life. Always remember that your wife has a good point: she didn't marry JoAnne; she married you. And she doesn't necessarily like JoAnne, and probably doesn't want her around.

I know that I'd like for my own wife to accept Marla - lock, stock, and barrell. But that's not likely, especially when she learns just how far I've taken Marla. That would be a load for any woman. I also know that if the roles were reversed, I'd be pretty uncomfortable with the situation. I'd not like it if my wife were parading around looking like a man, nor would I like it if I were she, and my husband were running around looking like a woman. So I understand her discomfort with it all. It goes far beyond simple crossdressing. And crossdressing at this level can be (and often is) a very selfish endeavor.

I often think, "I could be Marla lots more, and be not so hidden if only my wife weren't in the picture!" But I'd also be very lonely, and I know that I don't do so well all on my own. I'm better (way better!) with her than without her.

So get out your scale, dear. You have some weighing of your situation that you need to do. And clear up the fog when you do it, because you need to be thinking clearly when you reason all this out.

As I agree whole heartily with this I would like to add, When I was between marriages I was very much alone. My first wife never knew about Tresa and my second wife not only knows but accpets her. What I'm trying to add here is that being alone and dressing isn't always as good as you might think. Being alone, going to bed alone, not having someone there to share asimple laugh with over something on TV, to share meals with, to cry with (yes I believe that guys can cry especially us CDers).
Think real long and hard before you make a decision you might regret later. Please use this little bit of advise as your guide - before you make a decision try and look into the future five, ten, and fifteen years, and ask yourself this question. "What if I had done it this way?" After you have tried this then and only then should you think about making a decision.
I truely hope everything works out well for you. Hugs from TJ Tresa.

[Teri Jean]

Joanne, I had been maried for 35 years to a wonderful woman who passed two years ago in an accident. Although CDing had not become a real issue up to that point we did drift apart and I felt a lot like you in your situation. Since then I wish it was all reversed and we had those times together but at the same time I enjoy my freedom.

Only you can journey that path and you probably should get profesional help. This is something I feel is so important you need to really take your time and do it right. If it comes to a divorce so be it but marriage is something you fight hard for. I wish you both the best and hope you take all the steps before your final decission.

Huggs Keli

[PaulaJaneThomas]

It sounds like Gender Euphoria A.K.A. The Pink Fog to me.

[Lorileah]

I agree with Keli but then we have the same perspective.

Crossdressing was never an issue for me, she let me wear what I wanted within reason and our only rule was "don't embarrass me" but it wasn't always peaches and cream. On many things the grass looked greener and I can tell you there are just as many weeds over the fence. But we were comfortable and that is what worked.

But being alone is different. As mentioned above, you go all out for awhile then it becomes rote and you start doing less. I still change clothes when I get home but all the makeup and hair is not high on my list. It's the comfort thing women talk about but in reverse.

Nothing tells you more about a "new" relationship more than that dead silence when you mention something about what you like to wear with the new woman you are with. Makes you stop and think about furthering the relationship so yo don't get into the prison so many here seem to be in. In that case, being on your own starts looking good again.

Right now, being who I am takes precedence over having that constant companion but I am still new at this being on my own thing

[Miranda-E]

She doesn't love you as a person, she loves the comfort of the situation. The is no such thing as pink fog, its a term used to deny people their true selves. Would she accept you putting similar restraints on her day to day life and personal expression?

When working with TG/CDs that have "unsupporting" spouses I keep hearing the same conversations and seeing the same behavior as I do when dealing with traditional domestic abuse.
layer after layer of control, isolation and hammering away at self esteem, always with a justification. TG/CDs are very vulnerable to these tactics and are almost the perfect victim for a controlling personality. Like always the key step and the only one that works in the long term is removing the victim from the situation.

[MJ]

JoAnne, I worry if you make the decision to be alone so you can be JoAnne whenever you want...that will leave you feeling empty, sad and very lonely.
I wish you could find a balance where you both are happy.:love:
Remember this......even though your wife is not as accepting as you may want...she is accepting and others would love to have WHAT YOU HAVE:love:

Hi Joanne,

Take it from me another one who lost my wife over dressing/trans issues. Di is right sis you don't want to be alone it is very lonely and being mj all the time now changes how i feel about dressing all the time. now I'm just one of the girls jeans slacks little to no makeup who as time for that.

I do envy those who have partners. try to find balance sis the grass may be greener on the other side but does it taste as sweet ? i wish you the best...

[Sandra]

Joanne hunni I wish you could get your SO to join here ans chat with the FAB members here, as it may just help her to understand abit more.

Di is right if you do go it alone then you might be very sad and very lonely. I do wish you both could come to a compromise that suits you both.




She doesn't love you as a person, she loves the comfort of the situation. The is no such thing as pink fog, its a term used to deny people their true selves. Would she accept you putting similar restraints on her day to day life and personal expression?



How can you say that Joanne's wife doesn't love her as a person have you met her and talked to her?


As for the pink, you try telling some of the GG here that there is no such thing, when they have been left out of the relationship, when money that is meant for general household things have been spent by the cder on stuff for them, when all they can go on about is what they can buy or wanting to do this or that.

[Samantha Kelsey]

All I can say is that I didn't love my ex wife, her drinking drove us apart. Wow what a life since. I now live with Katy who fully accepts me as the person I am. That said, if I had loved my ex then I would not have split just for Samantha.

If you really love your wife then you wouldn't even think of splitting. However I know by experience that deep love can turn to despise. Then its time to split. Of course its possible to love someone so much that you don't want them to live a miserable life playing second fiddle to a selfish imaginary woman who we are in our femme selves just because they can't accept it and we can't stop it.

[Ralph]

If my wife ever told me to scale it back or to just plain stop......I contact a laywer and end the marriage. I know this sounds cold and uncaring, but you only live once and you have to do it as a happy person.

I just don't understand where crossdressers get a reputation for acting like all we care about is ourselves.

[Sheila]

She doesn't love you as a person, she loves the comfort of the situation. The is no such thing as pink fog, its a term used to deny people their true selves. Would she accept you putting similar restraints on her day to day life and personal expression?

When working with TG/CDs that have "unsupporting" spouses I keep hearing the same conversations and seeing the same behavior as I do when dealing with traditional domestic abuse.
layer after layer of control, isolation and hammering away at self esteem, always with a justification. TG/CDs are very vulnerable to these tactics and are almost the perfect victim for a controlling personality. Like always the key step and the only one that works in the long term is removing the victim from the situation.

There you go Joanne you got it in one ...... you heard it from one of your own ....... WE GG's are controlling peeps and you are better off without us ......... you get to live your life as you want Removed from an domestic abuser ....... ans so does your wife .......... no more hiding in the damned closet for her ............. no risk of verbal or physical abuse if people find out you are TG and she stands by you ...........

Go for it hun ............. live your life ............ be free to be you ........... and allow your wife the same freedom at one go ............... WIN WIN FOR YOU BOTH , can't ask fairer than that can oyu

[GaleWarning]

Joanne, I think that crossdressing is akin to alcoholism. You can call it quits, but the craving will never pass. Also, you will only decide to quit when your life hits rock-bottom and there is nothing anyone can do about it except you.

Unfortunately, by the time you realise that it is necessary to refrain from cross-dressing, it could be too late. Your marriage will be destroyed; your wife will be gone.

Is this what you want? Is this what she wants?

You have the power, the right and the responsibility to sit down and talk things through with your wife, now.

Things to consider ... you could very well lose all the material comforts that you have spent so many years building up, as well as your financial security. You could lose all your friends and family, including future grandchildren. You could discover only emptiness and loneliness.

On the other hand, you could lose the present killing sense of loneliness and emptiness in marriage that you talk about, which I, too, have experienced. You could decide that the risk of going it alone and the freedom to perhaps find someone more accepting to love and share life with, is worth losing everythng. Such people do exist, believe me.

Only you can decide whether to play things safe or take a risk... but know this ... anything you choose to give up will be gone for good. There will be no way back.

Blessings.

[tricia_uktv]

Joanne, not much help but only you know! If you are going to break away do you have a social network to support you? What would be the effect on the rest of your family if you did break away? Would you be lonely, but you may be able to live with lonely? Think hard before you make any move, and good luck.

[TGMarla]

:
She doesn't love you as a person, she loves the comfort of the situation. The is no such thing as pink fog, its a term used to deny people their true selves. Would she accept you putting similar restraints on her day to day life and personal expression?

When working with TG/CDs that have "unsupporting" spouses I keep hearing the same conversations and seeing the same behavior as I do when dealing with traditional domestic abuse.
layer after layer of control, isolation and hammering away at self esteem, always with a justification. TG/CDs are very vulnerable to these tactics and are almost the perfect victim for a controlling personality. Like always the key step and the only one that works in the long term is removing the victim from the situation.

There you go Joanne you got it in one ...... you heard it from one of your own ....... WE GG's are controlling peeps and you are better off without us ......... you get to live your life as you want Removed from an domestic abuser ....... ans so does your wife .......... no more hiding in the damned closet for her ............. no risk of verbal or physical abuse if people find out you are TG and she stands by you ...........

Go for it hun ............. live your life ............ be free to be you ........... and allow your wife the same freedom at one go ............... WIN WIN FOR YOU BOTH , can't ask fairer than that can oyu
One lousy post does not negate what close to two dozen others have said. All it proves is that there is an ignorant know-it-all in every crowd. And please don't take it personally, Sheila. I understand fully why all you GGs were upset at some of these postings. But like I said, it only proves the existence of one vocal minority.

Sorry to hijack, JoAnne. I already said my piece earlier.

[Elizebeth]

That's a hard post to respond to I have had the same thoughts the thing is are you unhappy about other things as well because being alone does not help you be happy. A full life makes one happy.

[Tamara Croft]

She doesn't love you as a person, she loves the comfort of the situation.Just what right do you have telling a person on this board that their wife doesn't love them, because they can't accept Joannes crossdressing? And then you go on to be even more insulting saying she's only there basically for comfort... what comfort is that then? The wife is miserable, Joanne is miserable, but don't EVER tell a person on this board that their wife does not love them, that's a vile thing to say.


The is no such thing as pink fog, its a term used to deny people their true selves.Sure and I'm sure the other 32 thousand members on this board will agree with that ridiculous statement of fact... NOT! Sounds like you're in pink fog to me :rolleyes:


Would she accept you putting similar restraints on her day to day life and personal expression?There is such a thing as too much of it, Joanne has already stated it's taking over her life... you know what that's called? PINK FOG!!!!


When working with TG/CDs that have "unsupporting" spouses I keep hearing the same conversations and seeing the same behavior as I do when dealing with traditional domestic abuse.Well I'm sure glad you don't work with any of these members here, you'd have them all breaking up their families, just so they can dress up like woman and feel free... and comparing it to domestic abuse, excuse me for saying, but are you completely ignorant to what domestic abuse actually is?


Layer after layer of control, isolation and hammering away at self esteem, always with a justification. TG/CDs are very vulnerable to these tactics and are almost the perfect victim for a controlling personality.What a load of crap, what kind of person are you? You're living in cuckoo land, you can't tell people this kind of thing, you're making mountains out of mole hills, you've probably split up numerous families with your bullshit.


Like always the key step and the only one that works in the long term is removing the victim from the situation.Victim? Seriously? Are you insane?

So it boils down to this, Joanne is a victim of abuse in your eyes, because the wife won't accept her taking over her husband 24/7... do you actually realise how stupid that sounds? Please DON'T ever counsel ANYONE on this board, you are not qualified to do so and you are absolutely lost in PINK FOG... not to mention insane!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Joanne, you really have got yourself in a bit of a pickle and I believe that the pink fog has got you by the short and curlies... You need to ask yourself this, do you want to live 24/7 or just be Joanne sometimes? What do have to lose by becoming Joanne 24/7? Can you live without your wife? can your wife live without her husband? can you not compromise with her? and finally, who does your wife speak to about all of this? anyone?

[avrillunge]

I'll say it again..................WOW!

These two pages have been such an education about you all who have posted and the thread issue itself.

Thank You!

Av

[dawnmarrie1961]

JoAnn, those feelings of "being alone" and sadness are sometimes the price we have to pay. Everything comes with a price. That's why it is important that you be a smart shopper and decide exactly what you want before you purchase. That way you won't regret you choice.

Remember. In Life there are no REFUNDS! Sorry about that but that's just the way it is.

Shop wisely.

[Miranda-E]

So it boils down to this, Joanne is a victim of abuse in your eyes, because the wife won't accept her taking over her husband 24/7... do you actually realise how stupid that sounds? Please DON'T ever counsel ANYONE on this board, you are not qualified to do so and you are absolutely lost in PINK FOG... not to mention insane!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------



Oh I'm very qualified, I do abuse counceling for a living. But I was warned before coming here by colleagues about the toxic atmosphere towards the idea of TG/cd people breaking free and expressing themselves with complete freedom to be who they are and that is was really a support page for controling SO's under the guise of a TG'Cd support site. Like I said I see the same patterns and behavior in traditional abuse and unaccepting spuose severyday and TG/CD are particularly vulnerable to it.

[shesadvl]

JoAnne just my :2c: worth...but you really seriously need to think this carefully far be it for Any of us tell you what to do.... but give some guidance and advice I guess.... the other GG's and some of the other MtF members have also given some sound advice....

1. Do you want to be single and loose everything...to be joanne 24/7.., become totally miserable...because you made the wrong decision...
as misery is optional (or from some CD'ers stance be happy)....
or
2.... You dont know what you have until its gone....but only You can decide....or make that ultimate decision on which path to walk or take.......

if you dont seriously communicate with your wife then Joanne......
do some real serious thinking.... because as I see others have said... it will be costly......
also as I have said above "You dont know what You had untill its gone"

do you want to go to that end of things....but only you can decide if the cost is worth it.

I wish you all the best in your endeavours that you have to choose...:battingeyelashes:


Oh I'm very qualified, I do abuse counceling for a living. But I was warned before coming here by colleagues about the toxic atmosphere towards the idea of TG/cd people breaking free and expressing themselves with complete freedom to be who they are and that is was really a support page for controling SO's under the guise of a TG'Cd support site. Like I said I see the same patterns and behavior in traditional abuse and unaccepting spuose severyday and TG/CD are particularly vulnerable to it.


Mranda have You ever lived in an abusive relationship yourself???

[Sarah...]

JoAnne, it's a brave thing you have done. Posting here about the junction you've arrived at with your SO and considering the options moving forward takes some guts and is also a sign of a need of some serious help.

As such, I would suggest getting some serious help. From a professional who is able to look objectively at your position and who is able to connect with you both to help you both arrive at a solution that meets your needs. There are plenty of views here on the forum but not a lot of impartial objectivity.

There are examples of people who can stay with their partners and be fulfilled. There are examples of those who had to leave their partners to be fulfilled. It is not a universal truth that the breakdown of a long term relationship is bound to leave both people in a state of misery or having lost "everything". Sometimes there is everything to gain. However sometimes the opposite is true.

I hope you and your wife can make a decision that suits you both. Each of you has the right to live your life in the way that provides the best outcome and, as you are doing, all the options need to be considered - but do it together and do it with an appropriate professional.

Sarah...


Mranda have You ever lived in an abusive relationship yourself???

I suspect that it is not necessary to have experienced an abusive relationship in order to counsel those who are suffering that way. As far as I'm aware a good people-centered therapist will be able to counsel effectively without personally experiencing every condition that s/he is presented with by his/her clients.

Sarah...

[Jennifer Cox]

JoAnne, I find myself in a similar situation and as I've yet to resolve my issues, I wouldn't dare to give you any advice. Just to say I feel for you and wish you all the best for the future whatever you may decide.

:hugs: Jen.

[GaleWarning]

As one who has received good counselling in the past, not on CDing but on another aspect of my own personal life ... I believe that a good counsellor does not offer the client their own point of view, ever. Your comment, Miranda, re Joanne's wife not loving her is merely your opinion. And I feel that it is not a very learned one at all. (My opinion, as someone in a CDing relationship).

Nor does that counsellor ever pass judgement on any aspect of their client's situation. You judged Joanne's wife, Miranda. From a professional point of view, you were out of line.

I do not think I would be confident having you, Miranda, counselling me.

Another thing ... this forum is NOT your workplace, Miranda. You need to heed Tamara's warning NOT to get into counselling mode at any time in any thread.

One last thing ... if you believe this is a toxic place, Miranda, I think you should leave. This is a place for all forms of SUPPORT for CDs, TGs etc. Your posts on this thread, IMHO, stand alone in their unhelpfulness.

[CrissyBlair]

Hi JoAnne,

Do you love your wife? Does she love you? If so my advise to you is to find middle ground. My wife and I decided that our love and marrage was more important then me cross dressing. After a while, she learned I was the same person either way. She doesn't "like" me doing it and all things being equall, I would to all the time if I could. We've learned to balance time to leave room for Crissy and time for me to be her husband. I've also learned how to read the situation for when she NEEDS me to be the man she married, and not Crissy. In my opinion; a good marrige is about loving one and another and fullfilling eachothers needs.

Good Luck JoAnne,

On another note; if people had the right to poke eachothers eyes out for there opinions, beliefs, or 2 cents..... we would all be blind. :doh:

[Sheila]

Oh I'm very qualified, I do abuse counceling for a living. But I was warned before coming here by colleagues about the toxic atmosphere towards the idea of TG/cd people breaking free and expressing themselves with complete freedom to be who they are and that is was really a support page for controling SO's under the guise of a TG'Cd support site. Like I said I see the same patterns and behavior in traditional abuse and unaccepting spuose severyday and TG/CD are particularly vulnerable to it.

Sweetie .................... I have been the victim of abuse ............ so I feel amply qaulified to discuss it and trust me ................. Abuse it can be but on very very small scale and the abused would still be the abused even if they did not crossdress .................... and I suppose you are now here to "SAVE" the poor abused ............... Grow up ......... as many wifes are living in fear as their partners ............... and for the damned same reason as each other ............ what the big bad world will say when they find out ........... sometimes justified sometimes not .............. do not go blaming it on the TG's partners ............ who also happen to include males .............. or are you saying that males don't abuse their partners cos I see you only refered to wives (genetic women .......... was that deliberate or a mistake!!!!!!!!! ):Angry3::Angry3::Angry3:

And if you damn well think that this is a disguised support site for the so's (wifes in your example) then you really are crazy ................ have you any frigging idea how few of us are, and the majority of us here are actively supporting our partners, there are a few who struggle, but for gods sake there the TG's themselves struggle with this .......

I feel sorry for the couples you are counselling (couples as in you are counselling the tg who has a partner) if you are really believing the crap you have written ................... in my opinion and experiance (I have been in therapy) counselling is for the person/s themselves to be able to explore their issues and be helped to find their own solutions not fed:BS: by their counsellor ............ and I am currently near to ending a counselling course ....... 2 more weeks to go :):)

[Deborah Jane]

JoAnne, i really think you need to spend time getting to the root of all this with your wife. She supports you as you've said yourself, but don't forget support is a two way street in a relationship!
The two of you really need to decide where you're going from here, only you two can decide the outcome between you.

Miranda-E
What exactly is your problem with SOs? Supporting or otherwise
They aren't all as bad as you seem to think, Jeeze i'd hate to think of the end result of someone coming to you for counselling :sad:

[DinaMature]

She doesn't love you as a person, she loves the comfort of the situation.
How can anyone here make such a blanket statement about another's situation???


The is no such thing as pink fog, its a term used to deny people their true selves.
Put down the self delusion and step away. Others get flamed for suggestions that selfishness is too much in play and then I read this.... we share our lives and CD impulses often don't always fit in, not too mention the fog itself can be overindulgent by it's very nature. I'm shocked you can even say this.



Would she accept you putting similar restraints on her day to day life and personal expression?

If she moved out and instead let her 'twin' brother take her place for measured periods of time, would that be ok? JoAnne's partner is supposed to ACCEPT her partner by advancing degrees become someone else? Our partners, especially those of long standing, are taking on a lot to be accepting of this "difference" we on the forum share... to demand that they accept a complete conversion to someone else is really asking a lot, imho

When working with TG/CDs that have "unsupporting" spouses I keep hearing the same conversations and seeing the same behavior as I do when dealing with traditional domestic abuse.
layer after layer of control, isolation and hammering away at self esteem, always with a justification. TG/CDs are very vulnerable to these tactics and are almost the perfect victim for a controlling personality. Like always the key step and the only one that works in the long term is removing the victim from the situation.
:eek: Is there a more useless a contribution ever posted?


OMG Sorry, but I am really taken aback by this post.
Joanne, I will join others and suggest you ignore this tirade .

I haven't read all the suggestions others have put here but I will ask, do you have hobbies or activities outside the house? Golf, fishing, social work? Are you retired with too much time on your hands and left with contemplating what do with yourself?

I understand you wish to preserve your partnership but Jo Anne is demanding validation? I won't say supress JoAnne but perhaps if you busy yourself with something, it will quiet the conflict within.

Again just my two cents worth, but I do hope you'll find usefull advice in this thread and ignore others destructive impulses.

[gender_blender]

I broke up with my last bisexual girlfriend due to issues unrelated to the topic of this thread and I live nearly fulltime female, but I felt the need to take this opportunity to express my affinity for being truthful. Perhaps break-ups over crossdressing may be reduced or elliminated by initial honesty. I love dating biological females, but would never compromise the person I am to form bonds based upon falsehood.

[Tamara Croft]

Oh I'm very qualified, I do abuse counceling for a living..Really? I feel very sorry for them, you seem to have your own ideas of what is right. So what's the divorce rate in your practice? 100%? That seems to be your answer to everything, partner not accepting = abuse, get divorced... you really are a dingbat.


But I was warned before coming here by colleagues about the toxic atmosphere towards the idea of TG/cd people breaking free and expressing themselves with complete freedom to be who they are and that is was really a support page for controling SO's under the guise of a TG'Cd support site.LOL!!! Seriously, there are 32 thousand members here and then some, out of that, 400 are GG's, which about 100 are active, there are about 100 FTM's of which maybe 10-20 are active... so get your facts right. If you have colleagues that find this site toxic, perhaps you and your so call colleagues should go create your own support forum and stop filling it with your own toxic bullshit. Members are free to post whatever they like, they aren't however here to counsel members with toxic waste that seems to be pouring out of your mouth. You aren't a qualified counselor here, you'd do well to remember that.


Like I said I see the same patterns and behavior in traditional abuse and unaccepting spuose severyday and TG/CD are particularly vulnerable to it.Traditional abuse? oh we have 'traditional' abuse now... maybe we should have a bank holiday for that, so we can all celebrate it :rolleyes: I think you need a counselor, would you like me to recommend one for you? You're obviously delusional, in denial, have no idea what the real world is like and you think an unaccepting partner is abusive... ok.. you really do need to see someone about that :rolleyes:

[kimmie_gg]

Oh I'm very qualified, I do abuse counceling for a living. But I was warned before coming here by colleagues about the toxic atmosphere towards the idea of TG/cd people breaking free and expressing themselves with complete freedom to be who they are and that is was really a support page for controling SO's under the guise of a TG'Cd support site. Like I said I see the same patterns and behavior in traditional abuse and unaccepting spuose severyday and TG/CD are particularly vulnerable to it.

As a wife of a CDer and a new counselor, I am awfully horrified by this. This is such a judgmental statement, and you don't even know who we all are. Counselors should always support marriage, and even if the client does come to a conclusion that divorce is imminent, that is still the client's decision, not the counselor.

[DinaMature]

You're obviously delusional, in denial, have no idea what the real world is like and you think an unaccepting partner is abusive... ok.. you really do need to see someone about that :rolleyes:

Thanks for stepping in... it's nice to see when the Mods are on the job and watching out for the communal good.

/slapdown!!

[ReineD]

Oh I'm very qualified, I do abuse counceling for a living.

Miranda, if you limit your counseling to abuse issues, you might consider that you've developed tunnel vision and are incapable of seeing anything other than abuse in marital issues. Also, if you counsel members of the TG community, I question your ability to be objective. Your post was full of bitterness and anger and I wonder if you've experienced an unhappy relationship that would lead you to have such a severe opinion of GG partners? I would take some time to examine this before counseling anyone else. You could cause a great deal of damage. If a patient is emotionally unstable and is unable to handle the way you see things, the therapy could lead to suicide.

Have you considered counseling for yourself?

--------------------------

JoAnne, :hugs:

Would you mind being more specific? You've made general statements and it is hard for me to determine where the balancing point might be. I'll go through your paragraphs one by one.

What exactly are your wife's boundaries that you are trying to live within? Is it dressing at home vs. going out? Or if you dress just at home, is there a specific amount of times per week she feels comfortable with, or does she ask you to not dress in front of her?

When you say you would like to spend the majority of your time dressed, is this living femme full time and doing everything in public (outings, errands, hobbies, working in the yard, etc) you now do in guy mode, or would you mostly dress at home and go out to places you feel safe in?

When your wife said you are living in a dream world, what is she referring to exactly? Do you believe you pass and she doesn't? Is she embarrassed or afraid, for you or herself? Is she concerned about what people will think and you do not share her concerns?

When your wife said all you do is focus on JoAnne ... do you spend anytime together doing things when you are dressed, or is your time dressed spent online shopping or TG sites, trying out new looks, makeup etc? Or is the dressing something she cannot wrap her mind around, not even if you dress once per week? What would be her attitude towards you dressed if you should cook a meal together and chat over the dinner table, then watch a favorite movie together while snuggling on the sofa?

The money ... it is hard to gage since I do not know your financial circumstances, but are you spending money on clothing now that is needed elsewhere, or that was spent on leisure activities for you both? For example if you used to vacation together, or buy a new car every X number of years, or dine out frequently, is this no longer possible because of your dressing needs? Can your wife spend an equal amount of money for her own personal needs, or does she simply resent any amount you spend on JoAnne?

And last, are there any other issues in your marriage outside of the CDing and would you wife agree with you? Do you enjoy spending time together, or do you each have your own separate activities and friends?

If you can tell us the specifics, with everyone's help you may be able to conclude that the divide between you and your wife is not as great as you perceive it to be. It is difficult to be objective when in the pink, but I'm sure lots of CDs here have gone through this and can offer valuable advice.

If you will answer these questions, I will feel better about giving you my opinion as to whether you might be happier in your marriage or alone.

:hugs:

[Shelly Preston]

Oh I'm very qualified, I do abuse counceling for a living. But I was warned before coming here by colleagues about the toxic atmosphere towards the idea of TG/cd people breaking free and expressing themselves with complete freedom to be who they are and that is was really a support page for controling SO's under the guise of a TG'Cd support site. Like I said I see the same patterns and behavior in traditional abuse and unaccepting spuose severyday and TG/CD are particularly vulnerable to it.


Well nice to know you arrived on the forum with an open mind Miranda :eek:

I am sad to say I can believe your work in the counselling field

Some of the things you have said are almost beyond belief :brolleyes:

Good Luck Joanne I hope you and your wife can find a solution to suit you both

[SoJill]

She doesn't love you as a person, she loves the comfort of the situation. The is no such thing as pink fog, its a term used to deny people their true selves. Would she accept you putting similar restraints on her day to day life and personal expression?

When working with TG/CDs that have "unsupporting" spouses I keep hearing the same conversations and seeing the same behavior as I do when dealing with traditional domestic abuse.
layer after layer of control, isolation and hammering away at self esteem, always with a justification. TG/CDs are very vulnerable to these tactics and are almost the perfect victim for a controlling personality. Like always the key step and the only one that works in the long term is removing the victim from the situation.

Could we turn this around and get the same response?

he doesn't love you as a person, he loves the comfort of the situation. There is no such thing as pink fog denial, its a term used to deny gg spouses their true selves in normal financing/budgeting. Would he accept you putting similar restraints on his day to day life and personal expression?

When talking with gg spouses that have "unsupporting" TG/CD's I keep hearing the same conversations and seeing the same behavior as I do when dealing with traditional domestic abuse.
layer after layer of control, isolation and hammering away at self esteem, always with a justification. GG spouses are very vulnerable to these tactics and are almost the perfect victim for a controlling personality. Like always the key step and the only one that works in the long term is removing the victim from the situation.

I am no way a victim of my husband or he of me.... Normal marital problems we have, but to place it all on the CD or GG spectum is a disservice to all happily working marriages within this same scope. To make a marriage work, it takes two. Get to talking....the only way to work it out is compromise.... would dear hubby like me changing my last name because that is who I am? it was my given name...get the point?

[TGMarla]

Ummm.....aren't we helping JoAnne? :strugglin

[Jodi]

If your only motivation is for dressing freedom, think twice. Divorces are not nice. Hell has no fury like a woman scorned. Especially if her lawyer is a barracuda. Most all divorces can be very costly. The lawyers are the only ones that come out on top. The longer that you have been married, the more that you can expect to give up in the property settlement. You could end up with barely a shirt on your back and surely nothing left to allow you to dress. There is no justice in any divorce, and if it should prove to be a nasty one, you will understand what I mean.

I speak from personal experience. There is no such thing as an amicable divorce, especially when the lawyers get involved. The lawyers do what is called lawyer games and the whole time they are running up the bill. It is not uncommon to have a legal bill of $25,000 or more on each side, and you just might end up paying her legal bills along with your own.

Think twice before you go the divorce route.

Currently, I am very happy living alone. We are both happier today. I am living well, but I can tell you, she is living significantly better today than I am because of what she got on the property settlement.

Jodi

[Josie M]

Ummm.....aren't we helping JoAnne? :strugglin

Thank you Marla :)

JoAnne, I don't know if I can add to what has already been said but, it's a sad thing when a relationship dies. If it ultimately turns out that this was just you choosing JoAnne over your wife, then it's likely that you will someday miss your wife and resent JoAnne for it.

The "pink fog" will come and go. Such things always seem to go in waves (at least for me anyway). At least give it a little time before doing anything irrevocable....and maybe you and your wife should really talk about this.

[SoJill]

Not intending to help one side or the other, just seems you could add "x" into the spot you place TG/CD or spouse. Compromise for each other, compassion for one another, listening to one another. If your not happy, find a compromise you BOTH can live with. If you both can't compromise, which means communication between two people, no one will be happy. No two people are going to agree on the same issue every time and one person can't be right all the time. We all have free will. Every action creates a reaction. But we are only a victim if we choose to be. And again, every action causes a reaction, good or bad. I only wish we would stop finger-pointing and start loving and accepting one another. I don't have to agree with all that is said, tis the reason I just hypothetically reversed the language. I have been told by a CD that I would not stay with my husband long, I would leave him, that they all leave (he found out I was new to the CD world). I didn't even know this person. I am not blaming anyone else for the actions of this one person, I knew this person was an idiot after speaking to him for a few minutes. To be accepted, you have to be accepting.
The ramblings are mine, and mine alone. Not wanting to offend anyone, just wanted two sides seen. Exit stage left!

[GaleWarning]

Both JoAnne and Miranda are conspicuous by their silence.
I think the posts on this thread have been helpful to both ...

JoAnne is hopefully weighing up her options and thinking things through very carefully ... I know I went through immense pain when I was in a similar situation. BUT SHE NOW KNOWS WHAT SHE STANDS TO KEEP OR LOSE.

Miranda ought to be pondering her whole life. My counsellor made it clear that he, too, had to undergo counselling on a regular basis, just to stay sane in his line of work. I do hope that Miranda will realise the need for her to seek professional advice.

I wish both of them the very best. May they both know that we are here for them, to support them as best we can.
:hugs::hugs:

[Miranda09]

Ummm.....aren't we helping JoAnne? :strugglin

That's what I thought! Seems like this discussion has gone off on a tangent!!!!!

[Carin]

Hi JoAnne.

Is it time to ask yourself if you life has become unmanageable and out of control! I do not wish to be unkind, nor am I passing judgement. This is an honest question for you to think about.

My Spouse tells me that I am living in a dream world - she says that all I can focus on is JoAnne - I suppose I am guilty to some extent
Four months ago you posted the thread Time spent on the forum. You seemed to be a bit OCD with JoAnne then. Has your wife seen anything different since?


and yet I have to live (only existed right now) with these two women arguing for my time.
and
JoAnne is pounding on one side of me and my Spouse is pounding (and about fed up) on the other side of me.
These are cute phrases - that almost gets you off the hook. However, you can not impersonalize JoAnne as an other woman. Be honest that you are talking about your self, your ego.


I really do not want to be alone and unhappy - at present, I seem to be married and unhappy.

It is also possible to be married, feeling alone, and unhappy. I wonder if Mrs. Wheeler could comment on that.

Your post takes on a somewhat technical tone, using third person narrative. "As JoAnne has blossomed, my marriage has suffered." The practicalities of dressing vs. being alone vs. being married. You have been married for 39 years as I recall, and Mrs. Wheeler is still talking to you. Your preoccupation of the last 18 months causes you to question that lifetime of existence. You OWE that relationship and the commitment that you have made over that 39 years some serious effort at figuring out what is really going on for you, whether that is talking to an independent counsellor yourself or both of you as a couple, or something else. I'm just not sure it is reasonable to try to figure it out all by yourself. You may have unearthed a deep-seated transgendered core in your self late in life, but you have an established partnership that you are committed to also.

With regard to getting a divorce or not, ask your self one question:
What does your wife mean to you emotionally - after 39 years? This question has nothing to do with crossdressing and being transgendered. After you answer that question, you can ask yourself how to manage your transgenderedness in your life. Is this fair? Not necessarily - but there is no fair solution - unless you and the Mrs. both decide that you both would be happier just to walk away from what you have built.



I have tried in the past to keep JoAnne under control, but the "bitch" has run wild.
In fact, I seem to be stuck in that gray area of not knowing what to do.
But if you are so deep in the Fog that you have nothing to give, what do I do ?

What to do!!! Get your head out of wherever it is stuck for a few weeks - I mean totally out, and evaluate the kind of life you want for your self and your spouse. Call it a retreat, call it discipline, call it getting a grip. Decide if you need help with your life, and how you can seek that help appropriately.

Your spouse's established boundaries, spending money, spending time - there is no rule book for what is too much. Your spouse has her ideas of what is too much and they might be different to an others. The practicalities of what are too much are for you both to figure out - not really the whys. It is not necessary for you both to understand, just to agree. But your agreement must be sincere, and not begrudged - until you can be honest with yourself on that score, you will just continue the struggle. Know what you need and state so. Then stick to it for an agreed time span.


What can I do ? I know that if I wind up all alone that I could be even more unhappy.

Hate to bother you dear Sisters on a Monday morning, but this is on my plate and you are the only ones I can spill out my guts to.

JoAnne Wheeler

Some of this may come across as a bit insensitive. But you seem to be the kind of person who needs a bigger 2x4 :bigsmack: Four months ago you were in denial and quite defensive about what was pretty apparent to the rest of us. So I'm using a bigger stick. Again, no judgement, just food for thought, as you asked.

So where are you taking her (Wife, not JoAnne) for dinner on Friday?

[Presh GG]

Ah Carin Has so many good points here. May I also ask 1 Question?

Joann, a couple of months ago, you said in a thread of your own that your brother [ now your sister ] had transitioned,[srs] BUT you could not EVEN come out to her because the extended family might find out. And you don't even live in the same states.

You really can't have it both ways.

Is it really Mrs Wheelers fault ?

You need to think this thru a bit more.
Please Don't throw your currant life away so quickly UNLESS you are sure.
As many here have said once it's gone....

Peace,
springtime gg

[Lauren Richards]

Wow. So many great opinions and options offered by those on the forum. I think this is the type of discussion which allows us to both see and understand better what is behind the lipstick and panty hose - real people with real problems. No simple answers, here.

On that note, I do have a simple truth that I came to understand recently while packing away some old work clothes. I came across an old coat which my former wife had thrown away without asking, and which I had rescued from the trash can before it went to the dump. I got to thinking that I had been very upset when I discovered the coat in the trash. An old faded denim work coat with a worn collar, frayed sleeves, and just a little on the ratty side. I loved the coat (still do) because it had protected me from the rain until we were both soaked to the core, soaked up my blood when I cut myself, had a couple of oil stains, and always reminded me of the times with my kids when we were together, doing so many things that were simply important because we were together. It was more than a coat to me, but she threw it away without asking. I don't think she was being mean, and probably meant well, thinking I could buy a better coat than that old thing I had worn for years. What I realized was that our relationship developed cracks and eventually failed (not because of crossdressing, which I rarely did then, and only in secret), because before she tossed out my coat she failed to say four magic words: "What do you think?"

I am as much to blame for our divorce (no regrets), for in thinking back, I suspect I was equally guilty of failing to ask "what do you think?"

Asking the question does not require you to agree with the answer. In asking, however, you are reaching out to the other person and can engage them in meaningful conversation. You indicate you value the other person, flawed as they, and you, are every day of our lives. Sure, you can drift in the "pink fog", or think everything would be just dandy if only you could have your way all the time. Maybe there are fundamental issues in your marriage which are beyond fixing. Only you and your wife know. I think everyone here, regardless of the nature of their opinion, wants you and your wife to be happy. Just for fun, the next time something really small comes up (like where or what to eat), try out those four magic words: "What do you think?" If you can gradually become more comfortable saying the same thing when increasingly bigger issues are at hand, I am thinking that no matter what your eventual path, you will be happier for having paved the way together. Best wishes to you both.

Lauren

[letsdance GG]

Joanne, I don't know you or your situation as well as the others here may. I do hope you will seriously consider some of what has been said.

Carin and the others have offered you a good starting point. No one can really tell you how to live your life. All we can do is try and help you unclutter your mind enough to know where to begin. I wish you nothing but the best as you try to do so.



Miranda E, you have obviously hit a nerve here with your insensitive remarks. I am concerned for your mental well being since you seem to hate just about everything about yourself and women. In case you forgot YOU ARE A MEMBER THE FORUM YOU HAVE JUST ATTACKED!!

Abusive GG?? Are you freaking kidding me???:eek:

I know that many of the women here are expressing their feelings in order to be understanding. Where the hell do you get off calling them abusive? It would seem to me that you have more issues than a newspaper stand. I honestly hope you seek counseling for yourself before your caustic attitude harms someone.

[charlie]

Hello JoAnne!
I can't give alot of advice, but can see both sides. I would be dressed everyday if I did what I wanted to do. Instead, I limit it to about 8 days a month. I live by our (me and my wife's) agreement that my wife does not see Charlie and I do not talk about her. She knows, but does not have to be confronted with her. Like you, most of this (extensive CD and going out dressed) has happened to me over the last year. When I'm around her I make sure that I carry on as I did in our old life. We go out, have dates and do things together. I love that part of my life alot. By showing it and not pushing my CDing I can keep all parts of my life; and my wife can keep the knowledge that she is the only "girl" in the family.

[Jeanna]

Thank you Tamara. This has been a painful thread to read.

[ReineD]

JoAnne, what say you about all the advice? Is it helping? Also can you look at my post # 42 and be a little more specific about your wifes's boundaries, the extent to which you want to CD, and how much the two differ?