What makes a woman look like a woman

[love heels]

How do i get the right look, what gives that look that changes theres a man to thats a woman. so many of you seem to have got it. I just cant seem to get it right don't know what im missing. The number of times i have got all dressed up made my self up feeling great looked in the mirror what a let down take it all off and give up. :sad:

Trying to gather a list of things to try to get that look. what hints and tip's can you give me to get that look.

SO what makes a woman look like a woman ? :daydreaming:

Thanks Katie x. :)

[Kate Simmons]

Same old story Hon. 5% appearance, 95% attitude. Of course with attitude most of us don't care if they think we are a guy or not.:heehee:

[PaulaSF]

To my mind, a few main points stand out:

1. Attitude & self-confidence: losing the paranoid, "deer in the headlights," everyone's staring at me, attitude & mindset which is a huge give (and really only solved, by gritting one's teeth, getting dressed, and getting out here; serial multiple positive experiences gain one that confidence).

2. A complete, pulled together look that factors in:
a. One's body shape, size, and coloring.
b. Time of day & venue appropriate.
c. Clothing that fits (likely to mandate tailoring)
d. A personal sense of style (developed over time: really being into fashion, reading, studying, observing women all around us, etc.) And teenaged Barbie isn't really a viable option for 99% of the folks on this board...

3. Some degree of femme mannerisms, esp. sitting (knees, or ankles, together, for Heaven's sake!) and posture (my decades of male slouching, "teenaged cool," are certainly tough to fight!) SMILE MORE!!!

And mebbe more germane (since the above aren't quite as "tangible"/something to be fixed by "retail therapy") is a wig that suits you! (length, shape, color, etc.) And this will require in person trying on, and perhaps some trimming/shaping. A bad wig is one of the most common faux pas' that I typically see amongst groups of t-gals, out & about.

cheers,
Paula

[PaulaJaneThomas]

It's all down to skin tones and texture, bone structure, muscle mass and fat distribution.

[Debbie801]

I think there are some facial proportion differences, like center of nose to eyes, lips, or chin to forehead and differences in this area between men and women.

Here's a website I found after a quick basic search, I am not saying this is factual, I'm just showing what one website offers.

http://www.virtualffs.co.uk/male.female%20facial%20differences.htm


Debbie

[kellycan27]

Same old story Hon. 5% appearance, 95% attitude. Of course with attitude most of us don't care if they think we are a guy or not.:heehee:

The op's question I believe is "How do you "look" like a woman. Attitude is a good thing,but it's not going to make you look like a woman,nor is not caring what people think. A guy in a dress with full beard is not going to "look" like a woman, no matter how good his attitude is, or how comfortable he is with himself. The OP's reference to what he sees when he looks into the mirror is kind of a clue to what he is asking don't you think?

[avrillunge]

If the legs in your avatar are yours, you are off to a good start.

Av

[jenna_woods]

its all in your attitude hun, and its just that most of us don't care if we do "pass" but how we feel about our selfs wen dressed, and wen I aam fully dressed and out and about I feel just GREAT.

[kellycan27]

its all in your attitude hun, and its just that most of us don't care if we do "pass" but how we feel about our selfs wen dressed, and wen I aam fully dressed and out and about I feel just GREAT.

Here we go again with the attitude.......Attitude and not caring is fine,but it's not going to make you look like a woman.. that was the question, so again.. no help to the person posting.
:rolleyes:

[Deborah Jane]

The number of times i have got all dressed up made my self up feeling great looked in the mirror what a let down take it all off and give up. :sad:

Trying to gather a list of things to try to get that look. what hints and tip's can you give me to get that look.

SO what makes a woman look like a woman ? :daydreaming:

Thanks Katie x. :)

Just keep persevering Katie, try differant styles of wigs, do your makeup differantly, etc, eventually you should reach a point where you are happy with your look :)

[love heels]

Thanks every one for the feed back, kelly has got it bang on. I have confidence bags of it and a pretty good body i think, i dont look too bad but i just cant get it the hair style, the way i wear my wig, the way i do my make up, i don't know i just can't put my finger on it !

I thought it was in the eye make up but i just don't seem to be able to perfect it ! :sad:

[Jaclyn NM]

I really think it starts inside you. Once you start feeling female, you will all of a sudden look in the mirror, and see one.

[Sophie_C]

Same old story Hon. 5% appearance, 95% attitude. Of course with attitude most of us don't care if they think we are a guy or not.:heehee:

I don't mean to be harsh, but all the attitude in the world won't make someone with the build of a linebacker look like a woman. Attitude does matter, but while everyone would love to think otherwise, the physical is what makes an appearance what it is.

So, what makes the body of a human being appear to be feminine instead of masculine, means a specific bodyfat percentile distributed in a specific pattern, which is achieved through hormones. It's a specific degree of normative musculature, also influenced by hormones. It's a body frame, including waist-hip ratio influenced by hormones. It's a jawline, facial structure, etc, influenced by it.

The reason I say it's so important is that AIS women have XY chromosomes but an entirely female appearance due the absence of the effect of testosterone and presence of estrogen, which therefore shows it simply isn't all DNA.

So many people here simply ignore the fact that there is a masculizing effect to testosterone which makes a stronger, more defined jawline, increased musculature, specific distribution of bodyfat, smaller hips, wider waist, less curved butt and thighs, even body scent which is what distinguishes them from women and can NOT be simply disguised by a change of clothing and positive attitude.

You can always try your best, and if you're lucky, can have certain genetic features (say, like a small nose, frame and jawline, low body hair, etc) which can help you more approximate it, but you'll never get it close to being indistinguishable without biological / chemical changes. To put it simply, the curves won't EVER be there without it.

But, if people want to keep on pretending things are easier than they really are, they can go right ahead doing that...

:doh:

Note: For those who don't care to go all the way, as I say, just do your best and OWN it. Be confident and EMBRACE that you're a crossdresser (and not to be 'trying to be a woman') and people will respect it, through and through. You don't know how many crossdressers I saw at my city's gay pride parade this year who were complemented by women left and right, no matter how much they didn't look like one, just because they carried themselves completely confidently and truly didn't care what people thought. Do that, every time, and things will be very well, fine.

[Kate Simmons]

Here we go again with the attitude.......Attitude and not caring is fine,but it's not going to make you look like a woman.. that was the question, so again.. no help to the person posting.
:rolleyes:Granted but reference was also made in the OP as to how many of US did it. We certainly aren't women. That was the basis of my answer from my standpoint as a person wanting to present en femme.:)

[TGMarla]

Are we......bitter? Really, not many people go around really intensely scrutinizing the people that walk by them in any given moment. That's why passing isn't really so hard. After all, what is passing? Is is going out and not having any 'episodes'? Or is it coming under a microscope and coming away with everyone thinking you really were a woman? I'm fine if even a few considered whether I was a real girl or not. Hey, mission accomplished.

So that which makes a woman look like a woman is all in the head of the person who's looking. It's all a matter of who you are and where you are in the world. I'm conditioned to trigger those "there's a woman over there" thoughts when I see persons with long and pretty hair, wearing skirts and dresses, wearing makeup, or having certain curvatures and mannerisms, and on and on and on. This is why I dress the way I do, and wear makeup like I do: because it's what I'm taught to see as pretty and feminine, and I like being pretty and feminine.

So I guess you could look at any picture of mine, and you could see examples of what it is that I feel makes women look like women. We all do the best we can with what we have to work with.

[Jaclyn NM]

Are we......bitter? Really, not many people go around really intensely scrutinizing the people that walk by them in any given moment. That's why passing isn't really so hard. After all, what is passing? Is is going out and not having any 'episodes'? Or is it coming under a microscope and coming away with everyone thinking you really were a woman? I'm fine if even a few considered whether I was a real girl or not. Hey, mission accomplished.

So that which makes a woman look like a woman is all in the head of the person who's looking. It's all a matter of who you are and where you are in the world. I'm conditioned to trigger those "there's a woman over there" thoughts when I see persons with long and pretty hair, wearing skirts and dresses, wearing makeup, or having certain curvatures and mannerisms, and on and on and on. This is why I dress the way I do, and wear makeup like I do: because it's what I'm taught to see as pretty and feminine, and I like being pretty and feminine.

So I guess you could look at any picture of mine, and you could see examples of what it is that I feel makes women look like women. We all do the best we can with what we have to work with.

I think you summed it up beautifully Marla.

[Ralph]

Arianna, nowhere in the OP was there any question of how we "did" it; she specifically asked for tips on how to LOOK like a woman. Not how to act like one, or feel like one, or enjoy getting as close as you can... just one question: How. To. LOOK. Like. A. Woman. Sorry for the attitude, but I run into this time and time again in tech support forums where someone asks for advice on how to solve a specific problem and ten thousand know-it-alls post replies explaining how to do something OTHER than what the OP wanted to do. Drives me nuts.

Katie, there is no one answer although Sophie's was the best by far. We've discussed on this forum a few times a hypothetical "point" system - you assign so many points to skin tone, body hair, facial hair, hair length and style, bone structure, all the various curves, clothes, makeup, etc. If you ace the important ones (like not having any trace of visible facial hair and a more delicate face shape and body shape), you can sneak by with failures in a few of the less critical areas like hairstyle, clothes, and fingernails.

Actually, the more I read Sophie's reply the more I realize that it's the perfect, correct answer to your question. Every time I start to add something, I realize she already said it.

Marla, bitter has nothing to do with it. Sophie just pointed out valid facts about the difficulty for someone with a heavy, masculine frame and jawline to pass as a woman, no questions asked.

That said, if you forget about passing attitude is exactly the right answer to enjoying yourself. If outing yourself won't cause problems with work, church, family, or friends - who cares? You're a crossdresser and you're proud of it - show them there's nothing to be ashamed of.

[Kate17]

Was not the question "what makes a woman look like a woman? Many of the female attributes can be duplicated. Sure, if you are a 260 # line backer, your probably not going to be very successful. So start with the obvious - women have hips, smaller waist than their hips and of course they have breasts. All of these things can be fabricated should you choose to. I finally broke down and bought a padded panty - wow, what a difference and that improved my attitude ( confidence) As a male, you might have the problem of a broader chest. This is a problem buying a dress. What you need to do is equalize the proportion. When you look at a woman, you see proportion( most of the time) If you don't, you typically go for a second look to see what does not compute. Now the face, as was indicated by the link, our faces are structurally different. What makes a woman look like a woman - eyelashes, lips, softness, eyes. If you hear gg's talk about feminine men, they usually mention thier eyelashes and lips. Rosy cheeks that jump, and SOFT Feminine skin . So, with your make up, it is important to practice to get that soft appearance with the "Woman Tells" like blush, lipstick and eye makup. And of course as was mentioned, the mannerism's are very important. Feminine men cross their legs, hold them in close and tend to sit erect. I learned that women notice that from my wife who told me about my fem character before she knew I was a CD. How do you walk - a females arms are built different than a man's - Its why they have trouble throwing a base ball. Men walk with their elbows out ( gorilla style) now thats feminine !!!!

I guess my point should you have had the patience to read this rant all the way through, is that a woman is physically different that us men and you can try to duplicate that to the best of your ability and what your check book allows. Then ATTITUDE comes into play.

[Nicole Erin]

You say so many seem to have "got it", but I think what you don't understand is what you see is the best photos some people took.

But now as far as getting the external look - basically once you have the basics of hygiene, style, and makeup in good order, it becomes necessary to nit-pick things about yourself that could be better. Eyebrows, ridding facial hair, etc...
I think basically make sure you have decent hair, don't wear clothes that show your masculinity or faults too much, and dress to blend in. IN the real world, women don't run around in mini skirts and stilettos. Nor do they wear super long nails or Tammy Faye Baker makeup

And with that confidence/attitude thing, I think that is probably true cause if you are worried or self conscious, it somehow shows. It seems if you can truely gain confidence, people just don't bother you. You have to get to the point where you are comfy with yourself, but it takes practice, a few ego-blows, etc..

[Rachel Morley]

I agree with a lot of the points made. The next time you are at work or in the store, or wherever, and you happen to see a man and a woman standing next to one another, take an almost scientific look at them and try to notice what those differences are. It's many of the things mentioned. Even if they are not moving and showing mannerisms (which is a science in itself) men and women's body shapes and contours are different. We as crossdressers can "influence" some of those dynamics but at the end of the day "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear (http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/you+can%27t+make+a+silk+purse+out+of+a+sow%27s+ear .html)"! :sad:

[Fab Karen]

We should also note CD's often think in terms of idealized model visions of women, rather than the huge variety that exists.

[gender_blender]

Female hormones create a feminine body structure, administered early enough to have an effect upon the physique.

[Gerard]

I'm no expert myself, but as many here, I've been following the advice and have been observing women and men and their differences.
Look at every person you see, and ask yourself how you recognize them as male or female.

1) Body shape
The right proportions are important to instantly recognize if it's a woman or man at the corner of the street. Shoulder-breast-hip-butt-thighs relative proportions, length of the legs compared to the body, length of index vs. ring finger, size of the feet, things like that. Women and men vary a lot in body shape, but most will display enough of the characteristic relative proportions to be instantly recognized. This is where making sure you don't have (too much) fat at typical male locations, and then applying things like breast forms, hip enhancers and maybe even a corset can help a lot. Even rotating your hips and angling your arms and shoulders differently already makes a difference.

2) Clothing and other accessories
Sometimes the differences are subtle, but usually clothing, even items like jeans, is shaped slightly different for each gender to fit more comfortably, with the side effect of accentuating the differences in body shapes.
More obvious differences is obviously gender specific clothing like skirts and dresses, and things like handbags.
Also colour schemes used for female clothing are often slightly lighter and more colourful and with more ornamentation and patterning. Flowers, butterflies, jewellery, frills, softer, more stretchy fabrics.

3) Movement
Men and women have differences in how they are built that have an effect on how they move. Broad hips make women angle their legs more inward to keep their feet under their centre of gravity, with the typical swaying motion as a result. High heels strengthen this effect because it forces the hips to be tilted.
There are also smaller differences like in how the arms are built, which also have effects on movement.
Next to that there are the psychological effects. Keeping your legs together (when wearing a skirt). I once saw a show on TV where a couple of women were supported to crossdress, and one thing I remember is that they were told: "Women walk like they are intruding, men like they own the place".
Things like squat instead of bend when picking something up and much more small cultural induced differences also play a role.

4) Behaviour
Men are often much more intrusive then women. This is still very much a male dominated society. We also train our boys and girls differently from a very young age (cars vs. dolls and all that). Women are supposed to be soft, giving and caring, men bold and confident. This has all kinds of subtle effects in how we handle ourselves and treat each other.
I'm not even talking about offensive behaviour like farting, belching, spitting, picking your nose or blowing it loudly.
This goes further than most men realize. Women are aware they are the weaker sex and men are more predatory, even if sometimes subconsciously. For example, I know girls who will go out in high heels, but change to flats when they go home, just so they can run easily and "are prepared".
Also the correct dress for the location and venue is important. CDs want to wear skirts and dresses, but few women actually do these days.

5) The face and body close-up
When you get closer, the face becomes the most important part of the human body we focus on. Here the differences between men and women are smaller, but harder to change and thus will often give someone away that has everything else under control. A few things can be changed, like thick eyebrows, maybe the texture of the skin, eye lashes. A lot is bone stucture and harder if not impossible to change without surgery, like the jaws, cheeks, width of the nose, size of the lips, brow ridge, distance between the eyes, between nose, mouth and chin. I'm not even talking about a beard/facial hair.
For most people the best is to hope to mask the differences with make-up. Please note that applying make-up like a woman would is a different art as making a male face look feminine.
Other things like body hair and skin complexion also play a role here. And of course not showing a "bulge".
What a lot of men underestimate, is how much time women spend grooming and treating their body. Most do it to look or keep a "youthful" look, but it has the side effect of enhancing their feminine look, like softening the skin, removing hair, tanning, anti-wrinkle treatments, etc.
There are lot's of small differences due to hormones not only in hard to change things like bone structure, but also how the skin looks, where fat deposits go and things like that. I'm always amazed how much transgender people I see here and elsewhere change due to the hormone treatment. It's much more than causing a beard or breasts to grow.
Some things might also be nullified if the right trick is applied. For example men usually have larger noses than women, but as it is cartilage you nose grows your entire life, so by presenting as a somewhat older woman, the difference might lessen a lot.

6) The voice.
Aside from the pitch, women sound different because their bodies are different. It's one of the hardest things to learn, but I've seen examples on the net where people with a male voice are able to sound convincingly female.

7) Scent/pheromones
The jury is still out on this one, but they also seem to play are (subconscious) role. I personally think this plays a bigger role then people realize.

----------------------------

If you want to look like a woman, just donning a pink dress, high heels and a wig will not do. To pull it off you need to do a decent job at least on most of the points above.
Observe and learn how women move and what things they do and don't do. Observe how you recognize someone's gender. Observe how people dress at certain venues.

Then practice.

Next to that start treating your body with lotions and other stuff, to soften the skin, lessen wrinkles, smooth out the colour, remove hair at unwanted locations and all those other things women do to look more feminine. Please note that in some cases products engineered for men will work better than those engineered for women, because of slight differences in biochemistry or body. The goal is not to do what women do, but to get a result that makes you look more feminine, which is sometimes not the same as what a woman would use, do or need.

Then practice to get better and more confident.

One of the problems with trying to present as the other gender, is that at some point you get to the "in between" zone, where you are unrecognisable as either at first glance. My personal idea is that this actually makes people notice you due to an effect similar to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley

I also think there are a lot in this community that know they will not be recognized as female under most circumstances, but who are confident to not care and go out and enjoy themselves any way. Even a lot of people who have a pretty convincing look here in an arranged pose on a picture.

To be recognized as a woman is to have enough of all of the above be feminine that the balance shifts to that side of the scale in people's brains. Each woman also has features that by themselves look more masculine, maybe broad shoulders, a large chin or whatever, it's the sum that makes it work.

Your question was how to look more feminine, I hope the points above help. There is lot's more information to be found on this forum and the net.

[Chrissie P]

Your second to last paragraph says it all. Many women lack a feminine feature or two but make up for it in other ways.

What ever the case,I sure love trying !!

[Ms Mira]

It's so many things and a lot of work. Just look at that thread about butt-wiggling and how difficult even that one small thing is to get down.

Then again, it wouldn't be nearly as endlessly entertaining if it wasn't.

[Sally2005]

Try this...

Do you best dress up job. Take digital images from front, back side top bottom etc. Put them away for a few days when you don't feel emotional about it. Then take a critical look at them and figure out what you can do to impove. The other thing, after a couple days you see what you really look like and not what your brain is filtering out in the mirror. I know I look better in my photos when I wait to study them...otherwise I see the guy me looking back.

[suchacutie]

After all the details given so far in this thread (good details!!!), let me see if I can say it in an overall way. When Tina arrived she was clueless as there had never been an attempt to have this body of ours, this voice, and this mind perform in a feminine mode. I read a lot. I looked at more makeup videos than I can remember. I've watched women now for 4 years every chance I get for an idea of what makes them look like a women. My wife and I have even begun to notice a large percentage of "women" (at least we think they were women) who we couldn't prove to our satisfaction, from a distance, were actually female. Why is that?

Each of our actions gives off "clues" as to our presented gender. On a quick glance, we don't need too many more female clues over male clues to be perceived as female. The closer the scrutiny, the more female clues we must produce to prove our femininity. Even then, sometimes it's just not possible to tell!

For example, we were at an optical shop the other day and needed to be there for half an hour. During that time a "woman" sat down and was helped. She was clearly dressed as a woman. Her hair was short but feminine. She had earrings. She was not slim, and in fact had not the "accepted" ratio of waist to hips that we would all prefer. Also, her face was rather chiseled, and appeared rather "manly". Her voice was not high, but did not have that "male" resonance. Her choice of language was feminine. All in all she came across as a woman with some manly characteristics, but a woman nontheless. She was also buying feminine-styled glasses. She "passed", regardless of what gender she really was. It seemed to me that the overriding "clues" were the female clothing, voice, word choice, desired purchase, slight amount of makeup, and mannerisms. She also "fit in" as far as acceptable clothing.

She was not there in a micromini and 5 inch heels. She was there to do her business as was anyone else. THAT is where the attitude comes in. Once you know you have a passably feminine voice and mannerisms and are dressed appropriately, if you ASSUME you are feminine, then you will be dealt with that way.

And that, as they say, is the goal. I'm not there yet, but the comments from our sisters on this site who have gotten to that point are always so very helpful! There can't be too much information!!!!

tina

[Blaire]

For me, it's hair first thing. Having it where you should, not having where you shouldn't. Get those two, and you're half way there in looks.

Second is shape - tummy in, bum out, pads in place :)

Third is to think in terms of average when doing yourself up. Yes, to you (the royal you) when dressing, it's never enough - more makeup, more stereotypical clothes. To the observer, it's "fit-in" with the crowd. I find when I'm dressed to the nines I don't catch myself second looking at an unexpected reflection anywhere near as much as when it's just jeans and a cami top.

[Ruth]

Scientists have actually addressed this question (can't remember exactly why, but it wasn't to help CDers get their look right).
Anyway, the single most important visual clue that we take in at a glance is the waist to hip ratio. If this is spot-on for an 'ideal' female, the rest of the picture is not important.
So pull in your waist and pad out your butt and you are on your way.
Sorry I shouldn't sound so flippant, but there is definitely a hierarchy of features that determine our first impression of gender, and this shape factor is right at the top.
I also realise it's a difficult one for most of us males to work on.

[Jessica Who]

Hi sweetie,

It helps to have a GG assistant... but if not, try looking at other women in your age group if passing is important to you. Look at their manner of dress, hairstyles and makeup application. That's probably the best place to start.

I would advise you to take it easy and just have fun always :D

[Satrana]

Anyway, the single most important visual clue that we take in at a glance is the waist to hip ratio. If this is spot-on for an 'ideal' female, the rest of the picture is not important.
So pull in your waist and pad out your butt and you are on your way.


This is correct, the waist to hip ratio is the number one clue which both men and women use to determine the gender of another person. If you have a slim body then there is no need for a corset, padding the hips with a couple of inches of foam either side will give you the hour-glass figure that will convince people you are female in spite of your height, face, hands etc. It also offsets the wider shoulders which are another unconscious give-away of your maleness.

The padding has to be realistic though, you cannot just add some bumps. The shape of a woman's hips starts at the belly button level and extends half way down the thigh. If you can buy or sculpture realistic hip padding then most people will not believe you are a male.

[Lilith Moon]

This is correct, the waist to hip ratio is the number one clue which both men and women use to determine the gender of another person. If you have a slim body then there is no need for a corset, padding the hips with a couple of inches of foam either side will give you the hour-glass figure that will convince people you are female in spite of your height, face, hands etc. It also offsets the wider shoulders which are another unconscious give-away of your maleness.

The padding has to be realistic though, you cannot just add some bumps. The shape of a woman's hips starts at the belly button level and extends half way down the thigh. If you can buy or sculpture realistic hip padding then most people will not believe you are a male.

:iagree: absolutely ! Hip-shoulder ratio is one of the biggest, but almost subliminal, gender cues and one which so many crossdressers I've met seem to be unaware of...assuming they are after a convincing femme look, of course.

I've had quite a few compliments on my femme figure in my album pics...this is partly down to being fairly slim but mainly due to several inches of foam around my hips/butt.

Besides, skirts look much better when hung off feminine shaped hips :battingeyelashes:

[Donna tv]

Prior to this thread coming out I too have pondered this very subject. My job requires a lot of driving during the course of a day. I make it a point to notice the other driver and how instantly I can tell if they are female or male. Even though I can only see a very small portion of that person when they are approaching from the opposite direction at a pretty good speed or following behind them and only catching the very top of the head. I can probably give myself at least a 98% correct shot at knowing the gender. It just seems strange to me that no matter what hair length, women short and male cut or men long and female cut, large or small head size etc. it is rare I am ever fooled. So I often wonder what is it that defines the gender. I did not mean to get this long in my reply but I know that this has happened to me many many times and I am sure to many others here that even in total male drab , have been called the name " Miss, Maam, or when your with your SO's Ladies" and yet when enfemm and trying to pass probably would be "made" in an instant. Is it possibly just the "Aura" we are generating at any given time ? I admit I haven't a clue . Just my $.02

[Marisa_M]

Same old story Hon. 5% appearance, 95% attitude. Of course with attitude most of us don't care if they think we are a guy or not.:heehee:

I agree with Arianna. The attitude makes a woman look like a woman in a 95%.

But you should work a lot in the other 5%...and enjoy it a lot!:daydreaming:

[charlie]

Hello Katie!
The best advice I can give to to buy shapewear and get your makeup done by a MAC store to know how to use the makeup you have and shading etc...that you do not have.
A beauty shop will be able to help you with your wig looks. I just did not know how to do makeup until I got it done by someone that did.

[Kaz]

Hi Katie, sure as hell looks complicated from the threads! But I guess that's what this is all about.

I have a wife and three daughters.. all three have been through their teenage years now and I must say that the attention that they put into their looks is nothing but converging on the full-time (while also doing whatever else it is they do full time!). They all know what the current look is, what looks out of date, etc.. they buy the mags, surf the right websites, all of that stuff... constantly and have done since the year dot (period I believe in the US).

I constantly look at and analyse women. They come in all shapes and sizes and so yeah, attitude is a big issue for us here. I spot CDs and notice how no-one else seems to be noticing, so maybe this reinforces the latter. But this is in a crowd, or at a distance. In a close up encounter the world changes! 1:1, as has been said, we focus on the face and pheromones will come into play and all the visual signals we recognise but cannot articulate (body language?)...

So this is a fine art that if we want to pass (and there are many levels of passing) we need to study, understand and adapt to. Not sure if I can or have the energy to... but there are times when I feel I just have to... the "curse within?"...

So I am working at it! Sadly I have bad physique, a heavy beard (I shave it of course, but it is thick and grows back quickly), and of course I haven't spent my life learning how to walk, behave, interact and this stuff... as ggs have... though I would argue that I have spent a large part of my life learning/wanting to be them... so I hope something has rubbed off!

Kaz xx

[victoriamwilliams1]

To my mind, a few main points stand out:

1. Attitude & self-confidence: losing the paranoid, "deer in the headlights," everyone's staring at me, attitude & mindset which is a huge give (and really only solved, by gritting one's teeth, getting dressed, and getting out here; serial multiple positive experiences gain one that confidence).




Attitude is the MAJOR part before anything else if your planning on going out of the house. I would also say study women in a none stalking way. I found that when I studied women it made my presentation much better. I say become a student and study.


Try this...

Do you best dress up job. Take digital images from front, back side top bottom etc. Put them away for a few days when you don't feel emotional about it. Then take a critical look at them and figure out what you can do to impove. The other thing, after a couple days you see what you really look like and not what your brain is filtering out in the mirror. I know I look better in my photos when I wait to study them...otherwise I see the guy me looking back.

This is also my #2 if you are going out in public. Take photos while your out. I take some primary photos for review and they are Profile, Close Up, Back, full front and every so often I will do video to study my walk. I have looked at photos from 4 years ago and my clothing style is the same however my outward attitude in my photos is different.

:2c:

[Gerard]

Prior to this thread coming out I too have pondered this very subject. My job requires a lot of driving during the course of a day. I make it a point to notice the other driver and how instantly I can tell if they are female or male. Even though I can only see a very small portion of that person when they are approaching from the opposite direction at a pretty good speed or following behind them and only catching the very top of the head. I can probably give myself at least a 98% correct shot at knowing the gender. It just seems strange to me that no matter what hair length, women short and male cut or men long and female cut, large or small head size etc. it is rare I am ever fooled. So I often wonder what is it that defines the gender. I did not mean to get this long in my reply but I know that this has happened to me many many times and I am sure to many others here that even in total male drab , have been called the name " Miss, Maam, or when your with your SO's Ladies" and yet when enfemm and trying to pass probably would be "made" in an instant. Is it possibly just the "Aura" we are generating at any given time ? I admit I haven't a clue . Just my $.02

Yeah, as many I've also been observing. I agree with the earlier post that the hip-waist ratio is the nr1 give-away, but I am still trying to figure out how often only getting a glimpse of a person will identify their gender. The more I observe, the more I become aware of all the small differences between men and women though. There are many, many queues even in cases like your example where we can't really see the face or even most of the body below the shoulders.

[kellycan27]

I agree with Arianna. The attitude makes a woman look like a woman in a 95%.

But you should work a lot in the other 5%...and enjoy it a lot!:daydreaming:

Let's get real here.... not even 100% attitude is going to make a man LOOK like a woman. The OP was in regards to what makes a woman "look" like a woman. You may have all the attitude in the world, not care what people think, consider yourself a total woman, but it is NOT going to make you "look" like a woman. I said before.. yeah attitude is fine, but if you believe it makes you (key word here) "look" like a woman, I have some swamp land down in florida that I'd like to sell you....cheap.

[Super Amanda]

Kelly is absolutely right. Attitude means little when the presentation is off. It's sad to tell someone that all they need is the right attitude, when reality is not so simple. I saw a cross dresser at my local grocery store a week or so ago, and s/he did not pass whatsoever...heavy beard shadow, clown-like makeup. Almost stereo typical cross dresser. This person showed NO signs of manly mannerisms, and had a neutral walk...BUT that did not change what my eyes were seeing. Anyway....

I mentally slaved over this and other ideas before I realized I was TS. I used to obsess over the differences that are unchangeable-hand/foot size, etc. I think it's possible to mimic the look pretty closely for many, with practice. When I came to the conclusion that "mimicking" the look left me feeling empty, I knew I wanted to transition.

Another thing that helped me was pictures.At first I would take a lot of pictures and be disgusted with how different the pictures look compared to the mirror image....then I got more practice, learned when to and when not to use flash, how to pose, how to SMILE! Sally is right about waiting to look at the pictures...they always look better if you wait a while to review them.

Another trick is to find your best side, or angle. Everyone, models, actresses, have a "good side" and everyone can find their best angle for photos with practice.

And as far as us gals who have the courage to post pics here...maybe we do pick our best looking pics to post....so what? Why would we post an ugly one? It's funny that those who will say things like "They only post their best pics" don't put up any pics at all.....:naughty I admit my avatar pic is altered...I changed the exposure and lighting...but I also posted the unaltered version in my album for all to scrutinize.

[kayesimone]

i can only imagine all the girls who really are girls that feel the same frustration. they just can't seem to get the "look" they want.
I spend a lot of time watching women of all shapes,ages and sizes and take bits of things that fit me instead of trying to fit into them.
It takes time and experimenting, accent what you have! there are so many "looks" out there. after a while you will find yours. and then of course you will find something else you're not quite happy with...
Enjoy!

[Cheshire Gummi]

Oh, let's have the newb weigh in

^_^

We all learned a long time ago what makes a woman a woman and a man a man. It was followed shortly by a fairly embarrassing explanation about how babies are born, involving such classical phrases as "it feels like a sneeze," and "millions of sperm rush to the egg."

Everything else are just details. Then again, perhaps I should stick to noodling my way around Coheed & Cambria guitar lines and playing Xbox instead of being "scientific."

If I had a monocle, you can bet I'd be wearing it right now.

[Fab Karen]

"then of course you will find something else you're not quite happy with..."

Plenty of GG's feel that way.

[Chrissie P]

LOL !! Most GG's want smaller hips and bigger boobs. We want bigger hips. No one is ever happy !!

[tammie]

HI Eveyone:

Not only is this a complicated question, it is also the most intriguing question and one that is only now being answered.

I have secretly yearned for intimacy with and watched in amazement my whole life at women and how magical they R.

If U like women, its both educational and entertaining to look at women, watch them and learn.

Now there is a whole psychological data compendium of what facial dimensions R perceived as beautiful. like wide set large eyes.

Developed at the time computer software was created to do facial recognition from side scan cameras.

There has always been that elusive quality of some women to just project sex and estrogen when they move from room to room.

Now they have quantified that and can quite accurately measure a proportion of waist to hip for a value of sexual
attractiveness.

Marilyn Monroe's was like perfect of course.

So that is the very surface of your answer.

Basically there is no way to quantify hormones and pheromones and only one way to get them on U.

[love heels]

Hi everyone thanks so much for all your good advise and tip's there is so much to take in. I am working on it with slow progress think i need to go down the what make up route! any more pointers will be welcome!
Thank again Katie. :)
Also thank's Kelly for keeping the thread going in the right direction and not down the attitude route. :)

[Jeanna]

Thanks every one for the feed back, kelly has got it bang on. I have confidence bags of it and a pretty good body i think, i dont look too bad but i just cant get it the hair style, the way i wear my wig, the way i do my make up, i don't know i just can't put my finger on it !

I thought it was in the eye make up but i just don't seem to be able to perfect it ! :sad:

I went to a salon (they provided a private room) to get my wig. I picked out a couple of wigs that I thought would look good. They were terrible.The lady picked 2 wigs, one really good but the other was perfect.She shaped and styled it. Even without makeup, the right wig will frame and set off your look.

[roberta4u]

well walk slowly, but preparation and practice are most important with wig placement, makeup application and dressing
take time, care and enjoy itall

[Danielle Gee]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley[/url]

Interesting post, I agree with most of Gerard points in his post. I recently experienced the "In between" zone he is referring to. I was walking my dog on a local bike path and listening to my Ipod. I noticed a person walking toward me from the opposite direction. My first impression was that she was a woman because she had small (for a woman) but very prominent breasts under her shirt. That her legs were hairless was what I noticed next. But the alarm bells were ringing in my head, Her clothes were unisex. her gait was more like a man and her haircut was more that of a man her age (about 70). Her waist was not flabby , but didn't quite match up to a female either. She smiled and said only "Hello" as she passed, but there was no clue in it either.

I don't want to give the impression that I obsessed about this person, but she attracted my attention by her (or his) very androginous appearance!!

Speaking for myself, I've only ventured out a few times (at night) with my wife. Went went to a local drive-in resteraunt and I didn't seem to attract any unwanted attention.

My gut feeling is that woman (and men too) come in all shapes and sizes and most of the girls on this site could pass with no trouble as long as they didn't do anything to attract attention to themselves.:2c: