Crossdressed and/or transgendered?

[Ruth]

I saw the recent thread on 'giving yourself permission to be transgendered' and I wondered. I’m OK with labels and definitions, if and only if they are well understood and accepted in the community. Crossdresser is a good label: we know where we are with this. It describes an activity which is visible and unequivocal. You know when you are a crossdresser. But transgendered?
I thought for a while I was transgendered but now I’m not so sure. I don’t know whether I tick all the boxes and I don’t know for sure what the boxes are.
When I crossdress, it’s to create the total illusion of a female persona. I go out in public regularly as Ruth and I pass as a woman. I do all the grooming details like leg shaving and eyebrow plucking; I do my face with moisturiser every night, I rub creams into legs and arms to keep them smooth and supple. My wife observes that I’ve got more cosmetics and beauty products than she has. But all this activity is merely in aid of creating the illusion. I don’t actually see it as specifically female behaviour.
If I’m being transgendered, and acting out female attitudes and behaviours, it has to be in other areas. For instance, I’m not interested in sports, or motorcars, or male bonding situations such as drinks evenings or poker parties, or masculine activities like hunting or fishing, so I'm not your typical male. I like music, drama, good conversation; peaceful activities like a walk in an ornamental garden or a trip round a gallery. But though these are non-macho pursuits, they are not specifically feminine.
I’ve got a feeling that a lot of my preferences are gender-neutral rather than transgender.
So is it actually all about the clothes?

[Nicki B]

Perhaps the first thing to do is agree a definition of transgender/transgendered?

Or at least give yours..

[dawnmarrie1961]

First question, Ruth. Are you "Ruth " 24/7 or do you have a male persona?

[Sarah Doepner]

We seem to have a very fluid dictionary that has the same definition for crossdresser and transgender sometimes and different definitions others. With as many people interpreting the words as we have people, it's not hard to believe that this is the case. Where is Noah Webster when we need him?

In the 1980's and early 1990's I believed I was a "transvestite" and later moved to the more acceptable "crossdresser" when that became part of my vocabulary. Then "transgender" hit the world and that became my self-identifier for several years. I've occasionally thought of myself as a "two-spirit" member of our tribe, but I'm just not spiritual enough for that to stick. Now I'm back to crossdresser and comfortable with that for the time being.

For the record, I am a genetic male, heterosexual, with a strong desire and willingness to wear women's clothing, makeup, a wig and body-shaping devices in an attempt to appear as female, occasionally in public settings. I self-identify in those situations as "Sarah" and attempt to behave in ways that would be construed to be typical of the feminine gender. It is not uncommon for me to become sexually aroused when contemplating this change in appearance, but that is rarely ever the goal when I dress. I have no desire to have gender reassignment surgery or use hormones to effect my appearance, but if I had the money I'd probably get my nose worked over. For activities, I like backpacking, smoking cigars with my buddies, opera, shopping for girl clothes and keeping up on family relationships.

I think that addresses the majority of the descriptors, but I may have left some out. Now does that make me transgendered, a crossdresser, a transvestite, gender-gifted, gender-neutral, an odd duck, or something else? I understand how important it can be in our corner of the world to have something to latch onto. Our self-identities are so fluid that the application of a name or title might help nail a corner of it down and provide a better foundation for additonal growth or understanding. Or maybe just a bit of stability while we try to get a handle on things. I don't know the answer to your question but it seems, like so many others, to be aiming for the heart of what we are. Good luck to us all.

[sandra-leigh]

I agonized over this for months... I was thinking at the time of telling my mother, but first I had to figure out what my feelings and behaviours meant to me. A fairly long thread (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90652) resulted.

The thread did get side tracked a bit because initially several people thought I was talking about CD vs Transsexual, instead of CD vs TransGENDER -- by which I mean some one of the variants in which one person combines within themselves attributes that would normally be associated with different genders.

I received some very interesting feedback and discussion in the thread. At the risk of putting words into people's mouths, the bulk of the discussion came down to the point that whether you a straight CD or a TS or are one of the many transgender varieties, once you have processed the thoughts and emotions, what you "are" is something that you will "just know" to be the right thing for you.

There isn't any little test that can tell you whether you really are something: what does your heart tell you?


For me, most of the time getting "pretty" wasn't important (though from time to time, upon occasion, it was something I needed). But I've looked at points such as whether I bothered studying how to walk like a woman, or how to have a "female voice", or whether I've practiced my makeup (as much as practical under my circumstances)... and I found that those things weren't important to me. And neither, in the most part, was "not being recognized" -- I was okay (though sometimes disappointed) with being recognized not just as a cross-dresser but as my male self... yeah, it happened a lot, but people treated me very well even knowing I was a cross-dresser. I often shop in what -looks- like drab (but is women's clothes), openly trying on skirts and dresses and obviously femme clothes as "me", not as "a guy acting exactly like a woman".

And so it was that over time, I came to realize that some aspect of me that demands to be free is female... not just the female clothing, but the feeling that I should have breasts and they are missing. But at the same time I don't feel like I am a "woman in the wrong body": if I did have that impulse to a strong degree, I would feel like getting everything "womanly" would be important.

I am, then, I came to "know", transgender... more particularly, "gender-fluid", not gender-polarized and not "two-spirited". (Though I think there are some unexplored parts of me having to do with being fully Dressed and looking good and having guys pay attention to me as if I were truly female: the flush I got the few times that has happened, confuses me still.) Androgyne is one term perhaps applicable, but not in any asexual context: the non-scientific tests place me just -sightly- male of "center" if you use gender as a continuous line, but I am without a doubt attracted to women.

[celeste26]

The two words 'crossdresser" and "trangendered" are two sides of the same coin. The first, 'crossdresser,' focuses upon the activity of the individual whereas, 'transgendered,' focuses upon the inner life of the individual.

One can be transgendered and have no crossdressing activity, and one can cross dress and still not be transgendered.

On the other hand you can have both words apply to yourself and my guess is that most people meet that last definition.

[KarenS]

I have struggled with the same question myself - trying to determine if I am a CD or a TG or something else. I have had others ask the same thing and usually said I was a CD. :heehee: But as conversation ensues, I frequently hear people say that the feelings and thought processes I express clearly indicate I am a TG. :daydreaming: As I have pondered the issue of 'my' label further, I ultimately came to a realization that I don't care too much except for the ability to answer other peoples questions. I would rather simply enjoy the experience. I have thought about the issue enough to have gotten a headache. :sad: I have looked up terms in dictionary.com and wikipedia and haven't been any more satisfied that I understood any better at all. In the end, I don't think it matters to me anymore. I am a genetic male that REALLY enjoys wearing clothing intended for females. I like to dress as a woman, put on makeup like a woman, fix my hair like a woman (with a wig), and present myself like a woman. I would love to be treated like a woman when I am dressed also. I do NOT behave in this manner for sexual gratification and often when I dress, that is the furthest thing from my mind. In addition to all of the above, I have always thought I was severly attracted to women (and still am). But, sometimes when I dress, I have thoughts and strong curiosity of being with a man. I wish to be respectful and honor the female gender and do so age appropriate - not present myself badly. I am not passable but feel quite femenine when I dress.

I don't get the opportunity to dress and go out much. :straightface: My wife really thinks it is all a bit wierd and has requested that I not go out. :rulez: She also does not wish to see me dressed :tth: but doesn't say much about me wearing undergarments 24/7 since we talked about "what to call me".:kickbutt:

So what does all that make me? I think it makes me confused but only when I try to think about it. So, I try not to think about it much and simply try to enjoy "Karen" when I can.

So... call me confused but not stressed about it.:love:
:bovered:

[TGMarla]

All of us in the gender-bent community exist somewhere on a bell curve. Some of us are content with a pair of panties, while others are transexual. Most all of us are somewhere in between. There is an area on this curve where crossdressing fades into the realm of the transgendered. Not all crossdressers have this gender dysphoria; others do. As for me, I'm firmly in the transgendered area, but not to the point of transexual. I say this because there is a part of me (a very vocal part of me!) that wishes I'd been born, and was now living the life of, a female. But I will not be undergoing transition or surgery. However, for me, it goes further and deeper than just crossdressing.

[sandra-leigh]

All of us in the gender-bent community exist somewhere on a bell curve.

Not meaning to argue, just present a different point of view:

My suspicion is that gender is not a continuous (or even discontinuous) line, male on one side, female on the other, and so-many percentage of the way between for everyone else. And if it isn't a line, then it can't be a bell curve.

I don't know exactly what it is, though. But since gender has different components, it could be more like a scatter-plot: at this instant, this component is this far over, this other component is that far over, and so on, with some (not necessarily linear) weighting of the various positions determining whether one is "more male" or "more female" at that time. And the positions change. And maybe the weighting function changes to, or maybe it is different for different people.

In more mathematical terms, "male" or "female" as is traditionally understood, might be projections of a multidimensional function down to a simple binary choice. And it probably works "well enough" for most people. But it doesn't work "well enough" for all of us. And it wouldn't surprise me if people are just so accustomed to everyone's gender constellations jiggling around a bit, that they don't even notice as long as "enough" parts project down to what they expect of the person.

But this is just hypothesis, not any kind of proof. On the other hand, the idea of gender as a line that could have a bell curve is just hypothesis, not any kind of proof either...

[PrincessTia]

Is there anyone else who does it just because they seem compelled to? I don't want to be a woman. I'm a man. However, I'm a man who loves frilly things, the feel of satin on shaved legs, and adorable panties, and the feel of lipstick. I like the idea that I'm wearing things that are taboo. But, I'm a man, and while I may tuck, I'm deeply attached to my bits and don't want to see anything happen to them.

So, what does that make me? Am I transgendered? I don't think so. Am I a crossdresser? I think so, but others might disagree. Am I just kinky? Well, kinky to be sure...but 'just'? That's up for debate as well.

Tia

[Cathytg]

My own tag line says what I feel -- for myself:

TG is what I am; CD is something I do.

In my little world it has become just that simple. In that respect, I am very happy to be TG since it gives me an appreciation of the softer side of life. But CD is a lot of fun and gives me good feelings although, unlike TG, the CD needs to be handled with care.

[Jan W]

I'm a tranny.

[Satrana]

I believe most CDs are just that - crossdressing men who enjoy exploring their feminine side, or what I call tomgirls - my preference for girly activities over manly pursuits.

I believe there is confusion that any man who CDs must be TG in order to be interested in the behavior. I believe that idea to be as false as the notion that all CDs must be gay. Gender is so poorly misunderstood as a concept and how and why it exists in our society that people understandably believe in simplistic but incorrect linkages.

I doubt if most CDs are any more transgendered than the average man in the street. The only difference between an average CD and an average non-CD is that the CD acknowledges and relishes his femininity whilst the non-CD has been completely brainwashed into believing he has no feminine side and finds the idea of feminine men frightening or repulsive. Of course he does have a feminine side, he just cannot see it or acknowledge its existance.

For me, a TG should really be someone whose personality is at least half or more of the opposite gender. Basically a male who is distressed in having to spend most of his time presenting as male and genuinely wants to come fully out of the closet to everyone.

I deliberately focus on the distress of being male as a measure because all CDs enjoy the fantasy of becoming a woman on a permanent basis. So it is next to impossible to measure transgenderness by presenting the ultimate dream. It is like trying to measure greed by asking people if they would like to be a millionaire - everyone is going to answer yes so the test is worthless.

Every single person alive is transgendered because everyone is both masculine and feminine. For TG to have real meaning, it should be reserved for those who occupy the middle ground. I don't believe most CDs are remotely close to being 50/50.

[PaulaJaneThomas]

Perhaps the first thing to do is agree a definition of transgender/transgendered?

Or at least give yours..

Before that, people need to understand that transgender is an adjective and you can't be 'transgendered' any more than you can be 'olded'.

[Krystal Nielsdatter]

I like the definition that CD is something you do, while TG is how you feel, but they aren't separate things. It's like the usual coupling of obsessive-compulsive where obsessions are thoughts and compulsions are actions. If someone thinks constantly about something it's likely they'll eventually act on those thoughts. Conversely, habitual actions rarely occur spontaneously without some thought process first.

The act of crossdressing wouldn't happen without some thought or fantasy, so I don't think anyone is only a crossdresser or only transgendered. I've always felt that the difference between someone who occasionally dresses and one who lives full time is just differing levels of obsession. They both spring from the same cause, whatever that might be.

[Nicki B]

Before that, people need to understand that transgender is an adjective and you can't be 'transgendered' any more than you can be 'olded'.

'Gender' is a noun, though.. And IME TG is often used as such, these days.


IFor me, a TG should really be someone whose personality is at least half or more of the opposite gender.

Why? Doesn't 25% count? Or 10%? Or 2%? Does it have to be all the time, or do episodes count?


Basically a male who is distressed in having to spend most of his time presenting as male and genuinely wants to come fully out of the closet to everyone.

That's surely a definition of an extreme form of gender dysphoria - there are lesser versions, too..


Every single person alive is transgendered because everyone is both masculine and feminine. For TG to have real meaning, it should be reserved for those who occupy the middle ground.

Gender (as opposed to anatomical sex, i.e. male/female) certainly is a fluid thing. Perhaps the defining factor for those who are trans is underlying dysphoria - but certainly, some don't think of themselves as dysphoric, despite exhibiting the behaviour?

I've had a discussion here with a girl who says that, for her, it purely an escapist fantasy - but she never explained why the fantasy had to be in a different gender, as opposed to dressing up as a traindriver or re-enacting battles?

[Rachel Morley]

Hi Ruth,

In describing yourself it sounded like you were describing me! My take on all this is that I use the term crossdresser or transgendered to describe myself equally, but it varies depending on who I'm talking to and/or the particular social situation I happen to be in. In my own mind they are interchangeable when considering myself.

For example if I were to be pulled over by the police I would describe myself as transgendered but if I was talking to another crossdresser at a party I would say I was a CDer. It also varies depending on the personality of the person I'm talking to. There are some TS women that I have met that I didn't want to be seen as "only a CDer" because of the vibe I was getting from them about CDers, so I said I was transgendered and at the beginning of my journey.

My point is, for me, it's all the same and I don't care one way or the other when I think about how I feel about myself ... but I do sometimes care how I am perceived by others. That's just me and that's my :2c:

[sandra-leigh]

For me, a TG should really be someone whose personality is at least half or more of the opposite gender. Basically a male who is distressed in having to spend most of his time presenting as male and genuinely wants to come fully out of the closet to everyone.


I haven't gone to a gender therapist for an official evaluation (but I will be asking for referral on my next therapy visit.)

I don't think of myself as being "half or more of the opposite gender". I think of myself as being notably more on the male side. But the pseudo-science tests disagree and place me just a little male of the middle. But those tests... I don't know if I'm answering all of the questions accurately (e.g., how do I know what the norms are for how accurately people locate sounds? How do I know if I'm being accurate in my own assessment?)

But what i do know is that in the last month I have come out to 5 people that know me personally, including my GP, my sister, my mother, and my best friend... because it has become my time to come out of the closet to those who know me, and I am getting my act together with the intent of going public in my immediate neighbourhood (I'm already public to lots of strangers.)

I have also started carefully asking questions about coming out at work -- if not being obviously femme while actually working (if that would be too disruptive), but at the very least being able to walk into the building in my chosen mode of dress, change before work, change back again before leaving work and walk out with my chosen mode of dress (it's not easy to find a place near my work in which I can safely change.)

In a way it's a matter of personal integrity: I am who I am, what I am, and having to hide it is stressful on me. Just yesterday my GP told me to just go ahead and do start dressing at work, and was quite excited about how much better I would get (I don't believe it's going to be that simple.). For me, the hiding and pretending is a significant stress: just as it was eventually time to tell my S.O. because I hated the lies/mistruths, there comes a time when being restricting myself to male gender norms becomes an inner lie that tears at me.

Especially now that I've told my family and best friend, work is the last place to "go public"... and I'm investigating that.

So I don't know that I match the 50%, but I do match the "needing to go public" part, so I have no hesitation in referring to myself as "transgender".


You know what the odd thing might be? That because gender-fluidity is hard on people (how are they to think of me today?), the answer from work might come back that that they don't know how to handle that, but that from precedent in other parts of our (very large) organization, that they could deal with me going femme full time. That would be a bit weird for me too... I know it might sound like a dream for many on this forum, but as I do not identify myself as fully female, going obviously femme full time might be hard on me too. Wigs aren't the easiest of things, take a lot of time to prepare, slip easily on my big head, and my hair isn't long enough or thick enough for a real femme hairstyle.

[Intertwined]

LABELS Labels labels

Like the other over 6.5 Billion on this planet, I Am HUMAN !

From there, does it really matter?

By my personal interpretation of Cross-Dressing, no, I am not a cross-dresser, I dress 1/2 masculine, 1/2 feminine, which reflects what I feel my gender actually is.

Am I Transgendered, I would say yes, but, again that depends on what you use for your base reference of " Gender ", Biological Gender (body parts), Genetic Gender (X & Y Chromosomes), Social Gender (How you interact with your community)


Imagine them as ten spokes of a wheel which start at zero (feminine) in the centre and run to 100 (masculine) at their outside extremity. They are:
Chromosomes
Hormones
Primary sexual characteristics (genitals)
Secondary sexual characteristics (hair, breasts, voice...)
Legal status
Clothing
Sexual partnership (gay/bi/straight)
Sexual behaviour (predatory/submissive)
Brain pattern
Personal identity (what you feel deep inside)
Who knows what other... work in progress.


Running with your Idea, here is my Gender Star.....
93156

[Carin]

Labels do serve an important role for some people as an integral part of communications and introspection..



Now does that make me transgendered, a crossdresser, a transvestite, gender-gifted, gender-neutral, an odd duck, or something else? I understand how important it can be in our corner of the world to have something to latch onto. Our self-identities are so fluid that the application of a name or title might help nail a corner of it down and provide a better foundation for additional growth or understanding. Or maybe just a bit of stability while we try to get a handle on things.
:iagree:

But back to the original question:


But transgendered? I thought for a while I was transgendered but now I’m not so sure. I don’t know whether I tick all the boxes and I don’t know for sure what the boxes are.
.....
I’ve got a feeling that a lot of my preferences are gender-neutral rather than transgender.
So is it actually all about the clothes?
I became aware of this concept a couple of years ago when my then wife suggested that "I was more than a crossdresser". I put myself in that transgender category that is "more than crossdressing but not transsexual".

My expression and style is feminine 24/7 these days (still looking for a job so I can't speak for a work environment). But I have no desire to be a woman. I really like being feminine, and still I like my male parts. It is my desire to live openly and comfortably with an emphasis on my own femininity and feminine expression that pushes me into this category. I do not know the check-box qualifications for being transgendered, or being authentically feminine for that matter. I do know of my own discomfort with being (behaving, presenting) as a guy, yet at the same time I do not want to be (pass as) a woman. I like my mix of male femininity.

There are some people in my life who do not see a male identity in me at all. There are people who do not see female inclinations in me. And there are people who say to me "What are you today?"

So is it really all about the clothes? I don't think so. Expression - the clothes - is a big factor. The sense of comfort in maintaining that state of feminine expression for a prolonged (permanent) time surely indicates a match between the tangible feminine gender expression (looks) and the intangible feminine gender identity (feels).


I agonized over this for months... I was thinking at the time of telling my mother, but first I had to figure out what my feelings and behaviours meant to me. A fairly long thread (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90652) resulted.

....

I am, then, I came to "know", transgender... more particularly, "gender-fluid", not gender-polarized.

For those that ask the CD or TG question, that "long thread" should be required reading.

You and I are in a very similar space Tess-leigh. That middle ground gender fluid space is hard to describe to people - the natural inclination is to push it all the way to one side or the other. As stated in that other thread, I really like the middle ground - as a permanent state. Gender fluid, third gender, androgynous, Two-spirit , whatever term we choose requires a detailed explanation if used in communication with others. Personally I like and have used "Third Gender" recently as a term that requires the least amount of definition and a relatively easy concept to grasp by 'outsiders'

[Danielle Gee]

My own tag line says what I feel -- for myself:

TG is what I am; CD is something I do.

That says it for me too , I try not to worry about "labels" as they pertain to anything or anybody ! After all we're all supposed to be God's children:2c:

[CindyLouWho]

My dad used to say, "There are two kinds of people, those who divide people into categories and those who don't". 100% of the problems in this world are caused by us v. them. I consider myself to be a woman, not CD or TG or TS. I've known I was a girl since I was 9 years old. Yet I'd bet that there are women on this forum who would disparage my claim because my need to transition never overcame my need to live the life I'm in. I believe labels are just fine, if applied to ones self. However, when we start applying labels to others we run the risk of becoming bigoted and discriminatory and then it's just wrong for us expect acceptance.

[CharleneT]

I believe that in general use TG is an umbrella term that includes many different folks/beliefs/problems/habits... CD's are part of the whole pool. I am not sure why so many people seem unsure or against having the term transgender applied to them. It is a very generalized term. Here are two definitions from a pamphlet on the subject. They are a decent start at a def:

Anyone who regularly acts and/or appears inconsistent with the social sex-role requirements of males and females is transgender.

OR

Transgender (adj) An umbrella term for any person who noticeably consistently crosses prevailing social sex-role boundaries, through any combination of:

1. personal appearance (clothing and adornment)
2. behavior (personality and mannerisms), or
3. anatomy (body features)

copyright 2009 Claire Ruth Winter

[Satrana]

Why? Doesn't 25% count? Or 10%? Or 2%? Does it have to be all the time, or do episodes count?

I believe that these types of numbers are typical of non-cds as well. I think a male who is 75%M, 25%F is a normal healthy man. Some CD, most do not. That is the crux of my argument.

I think we CDs think non-cd males only have a tiny percentage of female in them and that is why they do not CD, whereas CDs have far more. I believe otherwise. For me the reason they do not CD is because the male gender conditioning was successfully implanted in their thinking and nothing has happened to them to trigger self-awareness of their submerged femininity.

In other words, every male is a potential CD (because CDing is in fact the norm to reflect the whole personality) but the strength of gender conditioning robs men of the ability to access this side of their personality.

[skirtsuit]

I believe that in general use TG is an umbrella term that includes many different folks/beliefs/problems/habits... CD's are part of the whole pool.

"CDs are part of the whole pool". That's where the trouble starts, in my opinion. I am a MTF crossdresser and at 45, I still do it for the sexual thrill and don't feel any more femine when I'm dress. If my crossdressing somehow makes me 'transgendered' then all the women wearing pants in the world are too!

Try this: Next time you see a woman wearing a (say) pinstripe pants suit and loafers, tell her she's transgendered and she what she says...

All the Best,
Skirt Suit, CD not TG

[CharleneT]

"CDs are part of the whole pool". That's where the trouble starts, in my opinion. I am a MTF crossdresser and at 45, I still do it for the sexual thrill and don't feel any more femine when I'm dress. If my crossdressing somehow makes me 'transgendered' then all the women wearing pants in the world are too!

Try this: Next time you see a woman wearing a (say) pinstripe pants suit and loafers, tell her she's transgendered and she what she says...

All the Best,
Skirt Suit, CD not TG

depends on the suit really, if it is clearly cut as a woman's then I do not see the point. If it were a man's, then yes she would fit into the definition to a degree. Please note that one definition says "noticeably consistently crosses prevailing social sex-role boundaries" and the other "regularly acts inconsistent...". These are not referring to an occasional outfit. As well, for me at least, I believe that "intent" is very important in determining how a person might fit into the group "transgender" etc... There are many women wearing male cut clothing that have no intent of "looking" or "being" male. Hence they are not TG.

Anyhow, I've put these out there for discussion sake really, no hard and fast rules here. I'm not really sure why people are bothered by the term TG including them. It doesn't say that a CD is transsexual or the like, rather that there are many flavors of what people call transgender.

[Nicki B]

I believe that these types of numbers are typical of non-cds as well. I think a male who is 75%M, 25%F is a normal healthy man. Some CD, most do not. That is the crux of my argument.

Normal? Healthy? How do you tell? :)


In other words, every male is a potential CD (because CDing is in fact the norm to reflect the whole personality) but the strength of gender conditioning robs men of the ability to access this side of their personality.

For a start, 'male' is defined by physical anatomy.. Masculinity and femininity are mixed in every one - the difference comes in that some of us feel comfortable appearing (either to ourselves, or others, or both) as the opposite sex/gender. I'd call that symptomatic of at least some degree of gender dysphoria, whether conscious or not.


I'm not really sure why people are bothered by the term TG including them. It doesn't say that a CD is transsexual or the like, rather that there are many flavors of what people call transgender.

Neither am I. It feels similar to the way some here stress so very hard that they are 'straight'.. :sad:

Does it indicate some form of social conditioning? :strugglin

[Satrana]

For a start, 'male' is defined by physical anatomy.. Masculinity and femininity are mixed in every one - the difference comes in that some of us feel comfortable appearing (either to ourselves, or others, or both) as the opposite sex/gender. I'd call that symptomatic of at least some degree of gender dysphoria, whether conscious or not.


Indeed the best evidence we have about this whole question is to look at what happened to women's interpretation of gender once the feminist movement had social engineered greater gender freedom and masculine looks and interests were declared unisex.

Most women today mix some masculine clothes, habits, interests etc into their everyday life. It is not that they are trying to CD or pass as males rather they are reflecting how they feel. But an important question arises - where are all the GG CDs? Only a few claim to be, almost all FTMs are full time TGs or TS.

Which leads me to the conclusion that the common behavior seen in MTF CDs, the closeted lifestyle and desire to fully transform into the opposite gender is symptomatic of the social taboo against MTFs based on the "inherent feeling of wrongness and perversion of human nature". This leads CDs to look inward and access their femininity through fantasies which involve full emulation. Over time these thoughts become normalized in our heads so anything less than full emulation is deemed unsatisfactory.

Those whose personalities are approx 50/50 or greater no doubt do suffer from genuine gender dysphoria. However I believe the average CD does not even though he may only feel comfortable emulating a female - this being the result of the process of imposed closeted fantasies.

[Jaclyn NM]

I really am not too concerned with labels, since everyone interprets them differently. The fact is that I thoroughly enjoy wearing female clothing, but I have no desire to be female. I guess that makes me a crossdresser, and I'm okay with that.

[Stephanie Heplby]

As Satrana said:

Most women today mix some masculine clothes, habits, interests etc into their everyday life. It is not that they are trying to CD or pass as males rather they are reflecting how they feel. But an important question arises - where are all the GG CDs? Only a few claim to be, almost all FTMs are full time TGs or TS.

This is a line of thinking that resonates with me. Basically, it leads me to the notion that MTF CDers are basically a social construct. We are the creations of a patriarchal, misogynistic, homophobic culture. As this culture changes (assuming it does), then the need to engage in MTF CD behavior will reduce to come more into line with FTM crossdressing.

In other words, if I felt free to wear a skirt, put on make up, etc, in the same way that women are free to play with clothes and gender stereotypes (within cultural limits, of course), then I would probably have less culturally-driven need to identify as a crossdresser and go to the 'extremes' that implies.

[Jessica Who]

There are tons of labels out there for us and I don't think that there will ever be a consensus of what to use for whom.

[Nicki B]

Which leads me to the conclusion that the common behavior seen in MTF CDs, the closeted lifestyle and desire to fully transform into the opposite gender is symptomatic of the social taboo against MTFs based on the "inherent feeling of wrongness and perversion of human nature". This leads CDs to look inward and access their femininity through fantasies which involve full emulation. Over time these thoughts become normalized in our heads so anything less than full emulation is deemed unsatisfactory.

So, societies where wearing makeup and wearing feminine clothing is acceptable would not have CDs? Why would Thailand have become a major centre for GRS surgery, then, do you think? How do you explain Two Spirit people? :strugglin

The Ladyboys of Bangkok (http://www.ladyboysofbangkok.co.uk/).

That theory may fit you, but I'm decidedly uncomfortable with how it fits with me - but then, I'm aware of my dysphoria..

[Satrana]

So, societies where wearing makeup and wearing feminine clothing is acceptable would not have CDs? Why would Thailand have become a major centre for GRS surgery

Firstly there is no country in the world where CDs are accepted. Even in Thailand, CDs are still prejudiced against and can only get jobs in certain industries like beauty parlors and show business. There are no CDs in mainstream industry or politics nor are boys allowed to go to school wearing a skirt etc. Men who CD are not championed as trend setters and heroes unlike women when they enter traditional masculine fields. So although Thai's tolerance goes miles beyond what you find in the West, it is still not accepted that males have the right to gender freedom.

Secondly GRS is about transsexuality which I believe derives from a different source - gender dsyphoria - than what drives the majority of CDs - "normal" men who are self aware of their femininity and enjoy exploring it but which becomes distorted through the effects of the fear-induced, closeted lifestyle.

[Nicki B]

Even in Thailand, CDs are still prejudiced against

Partly true - although Buddhism teaches acceptance and equality, there are always bigots..


There are no CDs in mainstream industry or politics

No (http://www.bestmuaythai.com/muaythai_news_06_07_24B.html)?


nor are boys allowed to go to school wearing a skirt etc.

No (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7529227.stm)??


The headteacher, Sitisak Sumontha, estimates that in any year between 10% and 20% of his boys consider themselves to be transgender - boys who would rather be girls.



Men who CD are not championed as trend setters and heroes unlike women when they enter traditional masculine fields. So although Thai's tolerance goes miles beyond what you find in the West, it is still not accepted that males have the right to gender freedom.

Your point is surely that crossdressing is only a reaction to 'forbidden fruit'. Why is it only so for a minority of males?

It may describe your motives, but it doesn't fit so many people I know - dysphoria comes in many levels (and can vary over time).


Secondly GRS is about transsexuality which I believe derives from a different source - gender dsyphoria - than what drives the majority of CDs - "normal" men who are self aware of their femininity and enjoy exploring it but which becomes distorted through the effects of the fear-induced, closeted lifestyle.

Again you use the 'normal' word.. :sad:

[madison lee]

What we really need to ask ourselves and give an honest truthful answer to is this. WHY DO WE NEED A LABEL? labels cause more harm than good if you think about it. Gay, straight, lesbian, bi-sexual, white skin, black skin, red skin, brown skin, short, tall, skinny, fat, your religion, my religion, their religion, cross dresser, transgendered, transsexual, transvestite, she-male, he-she, MALE or FEMALE. If you think about this, we ALL start off as female in the womb. Its not until later on in the process that the fetus develops male genitalia. I for one follow Eddie Izzards creedo " I'm not wearing womens clothes, I'm wearing MY clothes". The point I am making is everyone of us is a special, beautiful person, regardless of our clothing preferences or wether we want to transition with srs to a woman. Be the wonderful person that you are, and to hell with the labels.

[RobynP]

What we really need to ask ourselves and give an honest truthful answer to is this. WHY DO WE NEED A LABEL? labels cause more harm than good if you think about it.

We NEED labels because next year in the US we are going to have our census. If we do not have labels, then how are we to be counted accurately? And if we are not counted accurately, then we will not be able to get federal funds or support for the things we want and need.

We NEED labels because if we go to a doctor for any reason, they have to fill out all kinds of forms for reimbursement (unless you pay 100% for all of your medical costs)...

Robyn P.

[Satrana]

Partly true - although Buddhism teaches acceptance and equality, there are always bigots No it is not bigots that prevents real acceptance but rather basic human nature to stereotype people who are different from the norm and this effect is society wide. That is why Thailand's large TG community is concentrated into the sex industry, show business and beauty parlors.

Not sure what your links are meant to show since they back up what I was saying. The school article is the story I myself have been refering to but it states that the boys are forbidden to wear skirts or even wear make-up, and this is in the school that installed TG toilets.

The boxer article demonstrates the employment angle. Parinya Charoenphol is very famous in Thailand due to her amazing story and the movie that was made about her. Despite her fame she is now broke and scraps a living selling beauty products.

I recently spent a week in Bangkok fully enfemme the whole time so I can personally attest to the amazing tolerance they showed towards me, but I can also attest to how ladyboys are marginalized in society through stereotyping.


Your point is surely that crossdressing is only a reaction to 'forbidden fruit'. Why is it only so for a minority of males? Because it is not forbidden fruit but poisonous fruit. Male gender is primarily based upon being the opposite of femininity. It is the fear instilled in men of their own femininity that prevents them from ever considering accessing that part of their personality. Until the stigma and prejudice are removed, mainstream men will never crossdress even by small degrees.


It may describe your motives, but it doesn't fit so many people I know - dysphoria comes in many levels (and can vary over time). It is a generalization, naturally you may feel it does not describe you personally.

I see no good evidence though that the majority of CDs do so primarily because of gender dysphoria. Which gets me back to me central point, is the average CD any more TG than the average non-CD. The difference may be nothing more than self-awareness and the willingness to explore despite the taboo.


Again you use the 'normal' word.. :sad: which is why I used quotes since we all know it is an abused term used by people in mainstream society to justify their belief in a fixed and standardized behavior which marginalizes everyone else.


If you think about this, we ALL start off as female in the womb. Its not until later on in the process that the fetus develops male genitalia. That is incorrect. The fetus starts off as gender neutral, this state is closer to female than male though because male genitals have to be inverted outside the body whilst female genitals develop internally as normal. The young fetus only superficially appears to be female.

[Carin]

What we really need to ask ourselves and give an honest truthful answer to is this. WHY DO WE NEED A LABEL?...

There is nothing wrong with introspection. Labels help us to navigate those waters. Labels are targets. It is up to us to decide how well we fit or match those targets. Such introspection has important value for our own journeys and it have value for those we interact with. Time and time again, those in relationships are implored to communicate. Much as I wish for "thought telepathy", we still use words. If you have tried communicating with a spouse without using labels and descriptives words, I can only assume that you are now single.

People will use labels whether you like it or not. Labels are a component of our methods of communication. If we do not determine the appropriate terminology, the public will come up with their own, and you will get labels like weirdo, and pervert. To those who object to labels - please - you may choose to not use one for yourself, but don't deny the validity or value of the descriptive words we call LABELS.

I have a couple of new friends that are friends because they read in my online profile that I am transgendered - yes, I put a label out there, along with a few other labels - male, straight, etc. Now I suppose I could have just said that "I am me", but I think that would not tell them anything. And I might even meet a lot of women - once - who would then run away screaming "weirdo" when I showed up in a skirt and makeup.

We are all people. But we are NOT all the same. Labels provide valid descriptors that begin to identify our own individuality in the world. We use labels to identify people or things that we are interested in.

I am transgender - and proud. It is IMPORTANT TO ME to be able to communicate this in this world where 90% (or some other arbitrary but very high number) of us hide in closets in FEAR that someone might associate us with one of these CD/TG/TS labels.

It has often been said that labels do more harm than good. This is a BS way to state that we are afraid of being seen as different. Hiding behind "no label" allows us to pretend that there is no bias. Lack of labels will not eliminate existing bias. It is our existence, standing tall, that will eventually eliminate the bias. We can be different and proud. Gay and proud. Black and proud. Transgender and proud.


Be the wonderful person that you are, and to hell with the labelsI am a wonderful person, with honorable character, and proud to be transgender.

[Julogden]

I believe that in general use TG is an umbrella term that includes many different folks/beliefs/problems/habits... CD's are part of the whole pool. I am not sure why so many people seem unsure or against having the term transgender applied to them. It is a very generalized term. Here are two definitions from a pamphlet on the subject. They are a decent start at a def:

Anyone who regularly acts and/or appears inconsistent with the social sex-role requirements of males and females is transgender.

OR

Transgender (adj) An umbrella term for any person who noticeably consistently crosses prevailing social sex-role boundaries, through any combination of:

1. personal appearance (clothing and adornment)
2. behavior (personality and mannerisms), or
3. anatomy (body features)

copyright 2009 Claire Ruth Winter
:iagree:
Exactly. The term "transgender" has been clearly defined in the community for quite some time. I don't get why there's so much controversy here over the meaning of it.

I too am totally puzzled as to why some CD's take offense at being included under the transgender umbrella.


"CDs are part of the whole pool". That's where the trouble starts, in my opinion. I am a MTF crossdresser and at 45, I still do it for the sexual thrill and don't feel any more femine when I'm dress. If my crossdressing somehow makes me 'transgendered' then all the women wearing pants in the world are too!

Try this: Next time you see a woman wearing a (say) pinstripe pants suit and loafers, tell her she's transgendered and she what she says...

All the Best,
Skirt Suit, CD not TG
You're missing the point. When you wear women's clothing, your clothing choice is to wear clothing intended for the gender opposite your sex, and that is transgender behavior. When a female wears women's clothing, that is cisgender behavior because the clothes were intended to be worn by a female. So, crossdressing, regardless of motivation, is transgender behavior. A female wearing women's clothing patterned after men's clothing is not transgender behavior. A female wearing men's clothing is a gray area, as in American culture, it is acceptable for females to wear some articles of men's clothing, so a female wearing a men's shirt is within the boundaries of accepted fashion here, except for possibly the most extremist Judeo-Christian communities and also Islamic communities, same for most of the Americas, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, etc., but probably would be a problem in most of the countries with Islamic governments.:2c:


Carol

[madison lee]

Is a label such a good thing if it harms the person so labeled? I am talking about labels that hurt people. Not regular labels such as man, woman, child etc. Labels used in the wrong way hurt people. The word Gay was originally intended to mean: having or showing a merry, lively mood...bright or showy. Now it is used by some in a derogatory and physical manner against homosexuals.

Case in point. A friend of mine that was an officer in the Navy was seen by some of his men coming out of a gay bar one night. The next night they shot him 5 times then set him on fire. All because they said he was Gay. The thing is, he wasn't gay. His brother is a drag performer who was on stage that night. He was only there to support his brother. The list of things done to people all because of the label that society put on them goes on and on. All through out history people have been persecuted because of what they were labeled. The inquisition- you were labeled a heretic and tortured if you didnt believe what they said to believe.

I could fill up a few books with all the acts of violence committed all because of a label. I wrote what I wrote because thats what I believe and so does my wife. It was not an attack or an attempt to make any one else believe what we believe. We dont label people. Pure and simple. So before you attack what someone else has said, remember that you are now labeling that person in some shape or form because they have a different way of looking at things. And if everything I say on this forum is going to be torn apart and attacked, I think I might see if there is another forum out there that doesnt do that.
Wether you label yourself or not, you are a beautifull person.
Keep smiling,

Madison

[Carin]

.... So before you attack what someone else has said, remember that you are now labeling that person in some shape or form because they have a different way of looking at things. And if everything I say on this forum is going to be torn apart and attacked, I think I might see if there is another forum out there that doesnt do that.
...

Sorry Madison. My response was not meant as a personal attack on you, just a different, contrary opinion to those that object to the Crossdresser vs Transgender label question. I believe that judgemental people will be judgemental regardless of labels. Hate crimes will not go away just because we stop using labels.

The original post is an issue of someone examining the appropriateness of the term crossdresser vs the term transgender in how they see their self. This is certainly use of labels in a non-hurtful way. The CD vs TG vs TS label question arises frequently. My point is that labels are an integral part of this introspection.

[Satrana]

:iagree:
Exactly. The term "transgender" has been clearly defined in the community for quite some time. I don't get why there's so much controversy here over the meaning of it.

However the definition of being inconsistent with the social/sexual roles of your physical gender leaves many loopholes. Being gay is inconsistent but does not mean you are TG. And then there is the problem that women no longer abide by these rules. A female soldier is being inconsistent, as is a female body builder but neither would be labeled TG.
And when you see a woman dressed in male clothes walking down the street, it could just be fashion, or it could be because she wants to seen as a male, but neither will be labeled as TG because there is an automatic assertion that male clothing is unisex so available to all women.

Which means that there are 2 different definitions of TG to be applied to men and women differently.

Also since gender definitions rely on social acceptance of freedom of expression, this is constantly shifting.




I too am totally puzzled as to why some CD's take offense at being included under the transgender umbrella. For the same reason why some get annoyed with the belief that all CDs are gay. Some CDs feel like regular guys and have no affinity with womanhood. So to include these groups under the TG banner is like including CDs under the gay banner.

[Fab Karen]

The point is that (say) trousers are typically male attire. Not because women don't wear them, but because men virtually never wear anything else. The day we all start going out in dresses and Barack Obama tosses a coin to decide whether to put on a trouser-suit or a skirt-suit will be the day that trousers start being really unisex.

So logically, women wearing trousers are cross-dressing, but nobody minds. They're not fetishists/transvestites/drag kings/male impersonators because their motive is fashion and not sexual pleasure/identity statement/satire/showbiz. But they are crossdressers. To say otherwise is illogical.
In modern society both men & women wear pants ( trousers ), therefore they're unisex. Pants are clothes that men typically wear, but they are not now specifically MALE attire.Your example about skirts would then change skirts to being unisex, pants already are.

[Julogden]

Carol, I'm not comfortable with the logic of your statement here. Let's suppose I buy a blouse and skirt from Transformation. They're clearly 'female clothing' in my view and that of pretty well everyone else. But they've been re-tailored to fit a man's figure. So does that mean I'm not cross-dressing any more? "A [-]fe[/-]male wearing [-]wo[/-]men's clothing patterned after [wo]men's clothing is not transgender behavior."

Or are we to conclude that the definition of the term "transgender behaviour" is radically different for men and for women?

I'd prefer to say that women wearing men's clothes and mens-style clothes is transgender behaviour, but that American/British/Australian society for the past 50-100 years has let them get away with it (hooray!) whole Saudi/Iranian/etc society doesn't (boo!).

That way, you stay logical in your definitions, while clearly explaining what goes on in the world.

The alternative is to say that "wearing the clothes of the opposite sex is transgender behaviour except for trousers in the following countries: USA, UK, NZ..." Doesn't sound like a valid dictionary definition to me.

The point is that (say) trousers are typically male attire. Not because women don't wear them, but because men virtually never wear anything else. The day we all start going out in dresses and Barack Obama tosses a coin to decide whether to put on a trouser-suit or a skirt-suit will be the day that trousers start being really unisex.

So logically, women wearing trousers are cross-dressing, but nobody minds. They're not fetishists/transvestites/drag kings/male impersonators because their motive is fashion and not sexual pleasure/identity statement/satire/showbiz. But they are crossdressers. To say otherwise is illogical.
Yes, technically, a female wearing an article of clothing made for males is crossdressing, but we have to look at the person's reasons for wearing clothing intended for the opposite gender before deciding if their behavior is transgender or not. Dressing in men's clothing as fashion or a man wearing an article of women's clothing strictly as a fashion statement is not transgender behavior.

And if you buy women's clothing that is tailored to fit a male, you're still wearing that clothing as an attempt to appear female, so yes, that is transgender behavior, and it is crossdressing regardless of the fact that the garment you're wearing was made for males to wear.

The terms "crossdressing" and "transgender" are not synonymous. Crossdressing refers simply to an act of wearing an article of clothing intended to be worn by the sex opposite of the wearer, transgender has to do with one's reason for crossdressing. Crossdressing for fashion, which covers most crossdressing by females, is not transgender behavior because they are not crossdressing in an attempt to appear male.

That's the way I see it anyway.

Carol

[Nicki B]

Firstly there is no country in the world where CDs are accepted. Even in Thailand, CDs are still prejudiced against and can only get jobs in certain industries like beauty parlors and show business. There are no CDs in mainstream industry.


No?


Not sure what your links are meant to show since they back up what I was saying.


While semi-retired from the professional boxing ring, Nong Toom still enters the ring from time to time, especially for fights abroad.

She currently runs a business selling cosmetics and female boxing gear.

The sex and entertainment industry may be where kathoey are most visible in Thailand - but to suggest they aren't doing anything else assumes that because they don't make a big deal about it, they are not there. For a start, I have a good friend who is a successful restauranteur - she's not out to people, so I think you're highly likely to be wrong..


I see no good evidence though that the majority of CDs do so primarily because of gender dysphoria. Which gets me back to me central point, is the average CD any more TG than the average non-CD.

I think that all depends how you define 'TG', doesn't it. Do you know many trans people, Satrana?


Crossdressing is an action, transgenderism is an attitude. Perhaps.

One of the reasons I've always had a problem with 'CD' as a description - it says nothing about who we are.. :sad:

[Elsa Larson]

I like to think of Transgender as an umbrella term to include the entire spectrum of thoughts/feelings/behaviors not normally associated with one's assigned sex at birth.

As Sidney Ecker, M.D. describes it:
We are all part of the wonderful diversity of God's creation.
(For the atheists: We are all part of the wonderful diversity of evolution.)

Just to confuse everyone, Transgender is ALSO used as a term for someone presenting as a member of the opposite sex. This includes people living full time without seeking gender correction surgery.

Peace !

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Wow what a thread!! and btw...is the original poster still around reading any of this??!! heh...if so, what do you think?

I spent my whole life thinking about being a woman...i remember as a kid planning to go to college and tell them i'm a female, then i thought after college , i'll move away and be a female...i fantasized about magically turning into a female, i imagined that i was forced into being a female, i snuck out and crossdressed and HATED when i had to go back to my male self....i could hold it in sometimes for months at a time, but then it would explode...i never purged...those clothes were ME and i never felt i could get rid of them...i got married to cure myself, thinking it was just a fantasy...i couldnt enjoy sex because i never liked anyone touching my privates and had to imagine my self as a woman with a man to ejaculate...
I finally lost it...i became anxious, depressed, lost weight (which turned out to be a good thing), started skipping work, started feeling trapped and wished i was dead...but i never actually can say i hated my penis...i loved all the guy things in life..football, video games, drinking beer, etc...i "released myself sexually" at least 3 times or more every day....this must mean i have a fetish i thought, i'm a crossdresser who has the bug really really bad i thought.....i kept working, stay married, raised kids...the whole "labels" thing was confusing and problematic for me...

I was guilty and ashamed, i felt there was no place in the world for me...finally i got help and most importantly i started to meet all kinds of transgendered people...i almost immediately knew that i related to the tg folks that identified as ts women....some of them transitioned already and i felt this almost jealous need to be like them....i realized that i had no desire or need to be a man and over a period of a year my inner life had totally fallen apart, divorce, etc....and i KNEW that i was going to start a transition and become the woman i always wanted and needed to be...

So what's my label??

I couldn't care less....trying to think about a label for myself has had a terrible and negative impact on my life, and now i just feel like i'm finally "me", and that's whats important..

i wish for everyone that they find their place...our quest for the right label is partially a quest for belonging, for having our own place in the world, so we don't feel guilt or shame about being transgendered in any way....as comforting as that may be, there isnt alot more to it than that...you are who you are, you do what you do, and the chips fall...

one caveat is that these labels do impact all of us in the political , work, medical and insurance community, so as a group, its in our interest to have the most inclusive "label" possible so that over the years, as we are inevitably more accepted, we get the best medical, insurance, and discrimination treatment possible. Right now our treatment on these things is close to the bottom of the barrel...

xoxo
michele

[Joanne f]

I suspect most will have a different thought on what one or another title /label would mean as it come from feelings within so they are only personal definitions of what others might think the meanings are so i can only give you mine as they stand at the moment ( and i would not expect any one to understand my meanings for one minute):laughing:
So the way i look at it is i have evolved from being a what you may call a cross dresser to being transgendered, i will try to explain (and i am not good at that ):D . the clothes were a means to express what i felt inside but now i have overcome the necessity to have the clothes to express what is me , they are a bonus but not necessary to show or feel my gender which has transgressed beyond being one or the other , i am both, my body being one and my inner self being the other but i understand that when people see me they will say cross dresser as they cannot feel what i feel so lables are not really important to me but you cannot escape them .

[susiepaul]

I saw the recent thread on 'giving yourself permission to be transgendered' and I wondered. I’m OK with labels and definitions, if and only if they are well understood and accepted in the community. Crossdresser is a good label: we know where we are with this. It describes an activity which is visible and unequivocal. You know when you are a crossdresser. But transgendered?
I thought for a while I was transgendered but now I’m not so sure. I don’t know whether I tick all the boxes and I don’t know for sure what the boxes are.
When I crossdress, it’s to create the total illusion of a female persona. I go out in public regularly as Ruth and I pass as a woman. I do all the grooming details like leg shaving and eyebrow plucking; I do my face with moisturiser every night, I rub creams into legs and arms to keep them smooth and supple. My wife observes that I’ve got more cosmetics and beauty products than she has. But all this activity is merely in aid of creating the illusion. I don’t actually see it as specifically female behaviour.
If I’m being transgendered, and acting out female attitudes and behaviours, it has to be in other areas. For instance, I’m not interested in sports, or motorcars, or male bonding situations such as drinks evenings or poker parties, or masculine activities like hunting or fishing, so I'm not your typical male. I like music, drama, good conversation; peaceful activities like a walk in an ornamental garden or a trip round a gallery. But though these are non-macho pursuits, they are not specifically feminine.
I’ve got a feeling that a lot of my preferences are gender-neutral rather than transgender.
So is it actually all about the clothes?

i am defenatly a cross dresser not transgendered
i love to wear girls clothes but i dont want to apear as a femal to others, i never wear boobs or a bra seldom wear makup but do have my nails done now and then.
almost everone i know knows i wear girls clothes and not male clothes but they all accept me for a man in a skirt not a transexual.
there must be a definat line in if you try to apear as a female full time and want to be accepted as a femal then you are crossing the lines of just being a cross dresser and starting to become a transexual.

i belive most people dont know the difrence between the two.

[Fab Karen]

Unisex: of, designed, or suitable for both sexes; not distinguishing between male and female; undifferentiated as to sex: unisex clothes.

[tricia_uktv]

Interesting question. But we are surely ourselves first and foremost. I happen to love dressing and living as a girl, but that doesn't actually make me one. I enjoy having funand being transgendered gives me the opportunity.

[Nicki B]

there must be a definat line in if you try to apear as a female full time and want to be accepted as a femal then you are crossing the lines of just being a cross dresser and starting to become a transexual.

Some of us are quite happy being both.

[Satrana]

The sex and entertainment industry may be where kathoey are most visible in Thailand - but to suggest they aren't doing anything else assumes that because they don't make a big deal about it, they are not there. For a start, I have a good friend who is a successful restauranteur - she's not out to people, so I think you're highly likely to be wrong..
Ehh? It is not about whether they make a big deal about it or not, it is what society is prepared to tolerate. The difference between Thai and other SE Asian cultures and the West is that Asians are usually OK with the principle of being TG, they are OK with you displaying this in public, but they are not OK with TGs in mainstream industry. The belief is that TGs are different from cis people, that they are far more sexually active for example. This is why they are concentrated in these types of industry because they correspond with the public's perception of what is means to be TG. Most people believe gender and sexual orientation are intertwined. This belief is persistent throughout all societies.

It goes without saying that TGs who are not out so not visible can obviously still enjoy jobs in mainstream industry and commerce.

I have lived in this part of the world for the past 15 years so I personally know the differences between the East's and West's attitudes towards TGs.


And if you buy women's clothing that is tailored to fit a male, you're still wearing that clothing as an attempt to appear female, so yes, that is transgender behavior, and it is crossdressing regardless of the fact that the garment you're wearing was made for males to wear.

Firstly only some CDs want to appear as a female, others do not and are quite happy to be recognized as a male wearing female clothing. So according to your definition, any man who would label himself as a "man in a skirt" is not exhibiting TG behavior and cannot be considered any different from a woman wearing pants.

As for this being crossdressing - that entirely depends on whether society thinks the item as being unisex or not. Before pants were deemed unisex, any women wearing them was a crossdresser. Then the fashion industry declared pants and all other male clothing unisex and now suddenly women are no longer crossdressing. Amazing!

And what about when women do wear pants deliberately to present a masculine image such as wearing a business suit for an important meeting. If a woman is deliberately invoking a masculine image does that make her a CD? but when she goes home and changes into jeans for comfort she is no longer CDing?

You cannot have it both ways. The only logical reasoning to this is to understand that women are crossdressing but society now allows this and so ignores it which means it is no longer possible to easily distinguish between women who are trying to project masculinity and those who are just following fashion or comfort reasons.

And think of this - if society declared tomorrow women's clothes were now unisex then you could no longer label yourself a CD, which apparently means you are no longer TG either.:tongueout

[MissVirginia-Mae]

I am a crossdresser but someday I hope to become a woman 24/7 and thats not just dressing...I mean the whole caboodle.
I would hope by the time i am 60, I will be just another granny with grandkids :love:

[RobynP]

I too am totally puzzled as to why some CD's take offense at being included under the transgender umbrella.

Those CDs may be wearing woman's clothing but presenting as a male. They are not trying to cross to a different gender. Since clothing is gender neutral, it makes sense. Their motivation for crossdressing is quite distinct from CDs who present themselves as a woman.


You're missing the point. When you wear women's clothing, your clothing choice is to wear clothing intended for the gender opposite your sex, and that is transgender behavior. When a female wears women's clothing, that is cisgender behavior because the clothes were intended to be worn by a female. So, crossdressing, regardless of motivation, is transgender behavior. A female wearing women's clothing patterned after men's clothing is not transgender behavior. A female wearing men's clothing is a gray area, as in American culture, it is acceptable for females to wear some articles of men's clothing, so a female wearing a men's shirt is within the boundaries of accepted fashion here,
This is where it is very easy to fall into murky waters here... To summarize... A woman wearing woman's clothing is okay. A man wearing woman's clothing is crossdressing/transgender behavior no matter what the motivation. (Is a bank robber wearing pantyhose over his head crossdressing?)

What role, if any, does motivation play? Certainly there is a distinction between crossdressing/transgender behavior and a person who identifies as a CD or TG.

If a female is wearing woman's clothing patterned after men's clothing is not TG behavior, then a man wearing woman's clothing patterned after men's clothing would be TG behavior... right?

And a female wearing men's clothing is a gray area and sometimes acceptable. For example a woman can wear a man's shirt and since it is "acceptable" would not be TG behavior. What if she is also wearing a mustache, cut her hair short, and is wearing men's pants? Still not TG?

What about a man wearing a man's shirt? Is this acceptable? Is this TG behavior? Why, of course not! Men wear men's shirts all the time! What about a man who is wearing a man's shirt but it is completely unbuttoned revealing a lacy bra underneath. The man is wearing a wig, makeup, and jewelry. Is this crossdressing/transgender behavior? It shouldn't be if a man is wearing a man's shirt... right?

Clothing is gender neutral. We do not assume the gender of our clothing because there is no gender in the clothing to assume. Only our motivation, our reason for wearing the clothes we wear determines if our behavior is CD/TG. Therefore, in the above examples our bank robber wearing pantyhose over his head is not CD/TG behavior while the man wearing a man's shirt with a lacy bra underneath is...

Robyn P.

[CindyLouWho]

Clothing is gender neutral.

Robyn P.I have seen this sentiment repeated throughout this thread, but it is a totally false premise. I'm not a sociologist or an archeologist, but I'm aware of enough examples to know that across cultures and throuhout history, humans universally differentiate gender with clothing. I wouldn't bet my life on it, but I'd guess that even in tribal cultures where women do not cover their breasts, that there are differences between mens and womens clothing. I'd venture a guess that the biblical prohibition against cross dressing has more to do with mis-representing oneself to prospective partners than it has to do with either cross dressing or homosexuality. The fact is that even today in western culture if we see a man in a dress at some distance away, we don't presume it's a man in a dress we presume it's a woman, and that goes for most if not all of us here on this forum. If clothing is really gender neutral this forum would not need to exist because there would be no such thing as cross dressing. We all dress because there is some part of our personalities that is female and needs to be acknowledged. Some of us are content to dress occasionally and in private, others need to live full time dressed as women and some of us will undergo surgery in order to acknowledge that aspect of our personality.

I'm sorry that this ambles so much, but a lot goes through my head while I'm composing and only about half of it reaches my keyboard.

[RobynP]

Cindy,

Welcome to our friendly board!
I have seen this sentiment repeated throughout this thread, but it is a totally false premise. I'm not a sociologist or an archeologist, but I'm aware of enough examples to know that across cultures and throuhout history, humans universally differentiate gender with clothing. I wouldn't bet my life on it, but I'd guess that even in tribal cultures where women do not cover their breasts, that there are differences between mens and womens clothing.

I did NOT say that society uses clothing to distinguish gender. One of the functions of clothing is to show other people who we are, what occupation we perform, and even what social class we are in.

I said that clothing is gender neutral. Clothing cannot have gender. However, people can express their gender by wearing different clothing, fabrics, and colors. A man does not become a woman just by putting on a dress just as a woman does not become man putting on a pair of jeans.


The fact is that even today in western culture if we see a man in a dress at some distance away, we don't presume it's a man in a dress we presume it's a woman, and that goes for most if not all of us here on this forum.

If you see a man in a dress, then you see a man in a dress. You don't see a woman...

However, if you see a person in a dress and they look and act like a woman, then the presumption is that it is a woman.


If clothing is really gender neutral this forum would not need to exist because there would be no such thing as cross dressing. We all dress because there is some part of our personalities that is female and needs to be acknowledged. Some of us are content to dress occasionally and in private, others need to live full time dressed as women and some of us will undergo surgery in order to acknowledge that aspect of our personality.

The $64 question is that if some parts of our personality are female need to be acknowledged, why can't they be acknowledged by sewing, knitting, dance, opera, watching the Hallmark channel, or taking care of the kids? Of course these could all be done without crossdressing. So why do we need to crossdress? There are probably just as many reasons why we do what we do as there are crossdressers... Certainly, women's clothing helps us in our quest to acknowledge our feminine side. But for most of us, it is not the ultimate goal...

Robyn P.

[CindyLouWho]

Robyn,

I quite agree thay our board is very friendly, which is why I registered and then eagerly awaited my acceptance to it. I am sorry I selected your post to quote. It just happened to be the most recent iteration of something I disagree with. Again I did not mean to single out your post and I am sorry.

Cindy

[JoAnne Wheeler]

BOTH

JoAnne Wheeler