The double-edged sword

[Olivia]

So many of us are married. And, many are married to supportive wives who love us dearly. Yet, many are married to wives who love them but still won't or don't accept their crossdressing. I wonder if it's really possible to "love" someone yet still deny them the element that makes them happy or feel complete. ie. "So, if you really loved me, you'd want me to be happy." The double edge? ie. "If you really loved me, you wouldn't expect me to accept this, this, __________ (fill in the blank with your own favorite pejorative) when you know how unhappy it makes me."

I know that compromise is possible, and often the only way out of this conundrum. Yet, the question still remains. Does love mean 'I love you with all your facets!" or does love mean, 'I love you but only when you don't do that."? Has this been discussed to death already? If so, I apologize in advance. I guess we begin to deal in absolutes here; but is love really 'absolute' at that?

O

[TGMarla]

I crossdress. My wife knows it, and she doesn't like it. It has nothing to do with love. She loves me just fine. If she didn't, or if the crossdressing was a deal-breaker, she'd have left me years ago. But her disapproval of my crossdressing has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not she loves me. It's quite possible for her to love me, all the while not loving the fact that I crossdress. She doesn't forbid it; she knows she cannot do that. But she doesn't have to like it. That's not part of the deal. My wife smokes. I hate it. But I don't think less of her because she does it. So really, I think this is a rather inane argument.

[Kimmy55]

In my case it was"I Love You but only when your not dressed"So to be honest with you I guess there may be more than one kind of love.

[Olivia]

So really, I think this is a rather inane argument.

But, not so inane that you didn't reply? Thanks anyway! :)

[tricia_uktv]

Sadly I think its one or the other.

[kasha]

I wonder if much of the issues our SO's have is just the clothes. Perhaps it's not being honest with them before marriage? Perhaps it's the fear of being trans? Or the possibility we're just repressed homosexuals? I think there are a lot of feelings mixed up into why our SO's don't like our dressing.

[Bev06 GG]

Tee hee, not that simple honey. A friend of mine was married for a while to a drop dead gorgeous fella who was a serial adulterer. He did love her to bits and didn't want the marriage to end but she couldn't take it any more.

So how does this sound then, if you really loved me you'de let me play around with other women for a bit of fun and then come home to you every night.

Me thinks thats not very reasonable. Seriously though, alot of women hate their hubbys CDing but they love him to bits. Soo why should it come between them if both can come to some kind of a compromise. I hated my first hubbys obsession with fishing but hey it didn't ruin our marriage, that was down to other women not fish.

Kasha, some women like masculine men to look like masculine men, pure and simple. I am a supportive SO but I much prefer my fella dressed blokey cause thats what and who I fell for. The dressing is just an added extra.

[BarbaraAnn]

In my intoduction post I stated how my CD and wanting to be a woman has destroyed my marriage. No matter what I have tried to do for my wife to make her happy she finds the fact that I want to dress and be a woman very hard for her to accept. She is still with me as far as living in the same house but we really are no longer married in the real sense since there has been no kind of intimacy between us in many years. Does she love me no does she care about me yes. This is nothing in the world I would like better then to have my wife understand what I go through each and every day and for her in her heart to forgive me for who and what I am. I know after 36 years this will never happen. So we live day to day and make the best of what we can.:sad::sad::sad:

[mklinden2010]

Ifs, ands, and buts...

Most CDs hear, "I love you, but..." or, "I/I would love you if..."

Hearing between the lines, we - of course - hear:

"I love you but... I don't really."

"I/I would love you if... you wouldn't do that."

So, no, it's not love - it's rejecting the person and any such relationship where it's part of the deal.

I think the post is a good question and a "heads up" not to kid yourself. Unless you're hearing, "I love you and..." you've got trouble.

If you hear, "I love you and..." you're more likely to hear:

"I love you and this if fine with me."

"I love you and green is a better color for you."

"I love you and I think now would be a good time to watch a little television together."

Even this is better than many people's lives:

"I love you a-n-d I think we should split up so you can be the person you want to be/need to be without me being a bother to you. You're lovable, but I have other plans for my life. Thanks ever so much anyway - we've had fun."

"Buts" and "Ifs" just prolong the tension. "And" seems to lead to better outcomes - most of them, seems to me, more about love.

[Joanne f]

There is one thing that should go with love and that is respect , you can love someone and someone can love you but you still have to respect their point of view, who said that love would just make it easy to do as you please in the name of love , that would just be chaos :heehee:

[Jessica Who]

I fully believe in marriage being a complete partnership and a constant exercise in compromise. Denying someone their personality expression is just wrong in my opinion.

While there are limits, it really infuriates me sometimes the amount of women who simply will not accept a crossdressing husband or boyfriend.

There has to be give and take on both sides and all married couples should strive for balance.

[Granny Gray]

Once more, the English language is not expressive enough. We use one word: LOVE, for many shades of affection where there might be Agape (total, all abiding absolute love), Filios (the caring for a sibling, family member, or friend within wide measure, and Eros (the sexual love of one's mate)... but is this comprehensive enough to cover such a vast subject. I think not.
Let's each delve inside ourselves and try to determine what it is we actually feel/mean when I say we love, and how much of it is CONDITIONAL. Is an totally rejecting spouse who says she loves really CONDITIONAL... is it that she loves only what she likes... And you, me, all of us who claim to love someone but .... we sure do hate that tobacco stink in her hair and on her attire?
Are we not all, or nearly all, victims and at the same time guilty of CONDITIONAL love... and one more question, when conditions are attached is it really LOVE? J

[KarenCDFL]

I don't this its a love issue at all. When I was a child my late great mom used to tell me "I will always love you but sometimes I don't like you very much. Please understand the difference."

I am married with a very loving and accepting wife so we have no issues of my dressing. But I can understand how a person can be loved but not liked. I think that the people here who have loving relationships also need to understand this thought as well. You may be loved but not liked when you dress.

[Cassiecd]

I disapprove of many things my wife does. It does not mean i do not love her dearly.

Love is unconditional

Marriage is hard work and compramise

[sometimes_miss]

You know, you can love someone, but not love everything that they like to do, or want to be involved with everything they want to do. One of my girlfriends liked to go to loooooonnnnnggggg borrrrrrinnnnnggggg poetry readings; then after they read the whole thing aloud, they'd discuss what they thought the author meant ABOUT EVERY SINGLE FRIGGIN' LINE. It could have been worse; they could've been reading poetry in some obscure foreign, or god forbid, an imaginary language like Klingon or something. Still, I'd rather drill screws through my toes than go to one of those again. Or at least remember to bring a video walkman or something.

So, if I had an SO that didn't want to share my crossdressing, but was willing to let me do it on my own, I think I could understand.

[Ralph]

You know, you can love someone, but not love everything that they like to do, or want to be involved with everything they want to do.

I hate it when other people get here ahead of me and say what I want to say, better than I can say it. That's the answer right there: Loving someone isn't an automatic requirement to adore everything about them. I love my wife, but she has some personality quirks of her own that have me grinding my teeth in frustration, just as I do the same to her.

So the compromise doesn't come from which one of you has the greater love to accept the other's desires; it's a question of what aspects of each other's personality bother you little enough to just ignore it, and which ones bother you so much that you can't stand to live with those traits any more.

To get to that point, you both have to figure out your priorities. Is your relationship with your wife more important to you than 100% full acceptance of your dressing? Conversely, is her relationship with you more important to her than having a man who doesn't crossdress? Would limiting your crossdressing either entirely or partially cause you such great mental anguish that your life would be ruined (as some here have suggested)? That's where the compromise comes in... finding a place that both of you can get some of what you want while minimizing the annoyance/pain to the other.

She's not going to be able to see your needs unless you are able to communicate how unshakeable they are - if she just thinks that dressing up is something you choose to do (there's that word again) on a whim, she won't see any reason you can't give it up entirely. But if you make it clear that it is a powerful, inborn part of your personality and has been since you were {x} years old and there's no possible way you could ignore it, she is more likely going to be understand why you need at least some time to be yourself without hindrance or criticism. After that, it's just a matter of defining boundaries you can both live with. Just remember that if she's willing to back off from "No crossdressing ever", you have to be willing to respect the boundaries she does set, and never ever ever try to push past them unless she brings it up on her own. I have seen so many stories here along the lines of "I promised her never in bed, but I thought she was asleep so I went ahead..." and they all end in heartache and disaster.

Sorry, that was a lot more rambling than I usually put into a single reply. Hope it helps!

[Teri Jean]

This probably has been discussed in one way or another but it needs to be every so often. There should not be conditions with love and marriage. The other thing is marriages are dumped at a drop of the hat without any work to make it work. If all else fails then and only then should one look for a divorce.

Love Teri

[dawnmarrie1961]

Olivia,
Nothing is ever discussed to the point where rigor mortis sets in. There are always different angles to any problem that haven't been explored yet. Often that is where solutions are ultimately found. So the question is still a valid one and doesn't need to be buried, yet, in the "We already covered that" vault.

Relationship is sacred ground for women. That's where their center is. The bond that is created emotionally and physically takes a lot of strength and time to create. Women see flaws in men as things that need mending like a sock with a hole in it. A few stitches and it's as good as new. Maybe not perfect. But she fixed it and that's good enough for her. So the question gets asked. Why doesn't she just look for a man with no flaws, no imperfections? Answer is: That man does not exist. He is a fantasy construct of over read Harlequin romance novels and fairy tales. Even if he did exist she wouldn't feel comfortable with him because she sees herself everyday as not measuring up. She looks in the mirror and sees flaws, imperfections and she hates herself for them. She can't see perfect in herself so she doesn't seek perfect in others. She's looking for someone she can mold like potters clay into the "fantasy" image that was programmed into her mind from a very young age as to what the ideal mate should be. On the flip side the male is just looking for...well you already know that. So I'm not going to say it. Besides it's kind of redundant at this point. Then you have your female side. The cross dressing side that you are trying desperately to come to terms with. It should give you a unique window to look at how she feels and understand what her true fears are. Dare you have the courage to see. When you look in the mirror (dressed as a woman or not),as she does, what do you see? Does you male ego get in the way and blind you? Or do you see your flaws as she does and hate yourself because of it. If you do "Welcome to the woman's world." We are ever changing (Hair dying, style changing. makeup driven divas ) and never satisfied with what we see in the reflection.

Love is indeed a two edged sword. It cuts both ways and hurts like hell! With some conversation and understanding ,on both your parts, that sword can be blunted. It will always have two sides. As all things do. But it won't hurt so much and you both can advance in the task of building a strong foundation in your relationship realizing that even a cracked support doesn't mean and invertible collapse. It can be shored up and mended by LOVE.

Good luck.

Be safe. Be smart.

[Victoria Anne]

Olivia while you have already heard many thoughts on this issue I would like to add my own as it bares on a subject my wife and Ijust discussed. I believe that when one has found there true soulmate love has no limits with respect to Bev ,she is right cheating is a deal breaker but when one has found there true soulmate one would not be able to be disloyal or do anything to harm one love,ones self because two have become one so in essance the harm is done to one's own self regardless of the injury weather it be physical or emotional.
Is it possible yes, my wife told me again , the second time now that if I would like to transition I am ftree to do so with her support and she would always be my wife , our relationship ould not change, we are soulmates , two souls become one.

[Bethany38]

Olivia,
Too me love is unconditional. You either love all of someone or you have a strong infatuation with them. I am not saying that there are'nt things that do not or would not get on my nerves. However, if you love someone it is all or nothing. There is no picking and choosing of the different facets of the person in question. I was raised that too truely love someone, you love them unconditionally. I would never ask my wife to be anyone she is'nt, or to change who she is for my own comfort. There are many things that my honey does that have had me going crazy(and vice versa), but this is part of her. If I were to take part of her away. I do not know if she would be the same person i'm in love with now. IMHO:D.

[Olivia]

Lot's of great replies! Thanks for that. Maybe it's been misunderstood, but I don't really have a problem in this respect. My wife does love me, in whatever mode I may choose to present. I think she even likes Olivia! She loves me with no CD strings attached I guess. It's just that this question has often been in the back of my mind whenever I've seen posts about irate wives or SOs who choose not to accept their crossdressing mates. I'm not judging anyone here. Everyone has their own row to hoe, so to speak. My row is going well.:)

A few points have caught my attention more than others. Can philandering be equated to crossdressing? Is one an innate "part" of one's being, while the other is a "personality flaw"? Does "if you love me, you would let me express my 'true self!" resonate the same as "if you love me, you will let me have sex with other women"? That doesn't seem right.

Is crossdressing merely a "personality quirk"? Is the same thing as a "bad habit" like smoking or biting one's nails, or over-eating? Do any of you really think of crossdressing as a bad habit? Jeez, I hope not.:). It seems like more than that.

Please, keep the ideas and opinions coming. Good dialogue is great. Thanks, Olivia.

[sissystephanie]

Olivia, I think a great deal of whether or not there is "true" love depends on when the crossdressing was revealed. If a man and woman marry, and years later she finds out he is a crossdresser, asking her to love him as she did before the relavation is a stretch. In effect, he lied to her when they married. As other have said, marriage is a two way street. There has to be give and take from both parties. But that give and take must come from open and honest communication between both parties.

That is why I strongly urge complete disclosure BEFORE marriage. Yes, it might ruin the relationship! But isn't it better to have it stop before it gets going than to have a breakdown years later? I think so!

I did tell my dear wife before we married, and she completely accepted me "as is!" In fact, she bought us both matching white silk lingerie to wear at our wedding!:love: We had 49+ happy years together before cancer took her 4 yers ago. At one point in our marriage, years ago, I totally stopped being a CD for reasons having nothing to do with my wife! After 5 years of that, she literally begged me to start dressing again, saying she really missed Stephanie!! Going back to my earlier statements about communication, We always had totally honest and open communication with each other. If she did not want me to dress for a certain reason, she would tell me and I wouldn't. Likewise, if I/Stephanie wanted to go out by myself, I would tell her and she would fix my wig and do my makeup! Lord, do I miss that!!:sad:

Well, I have thrown my 2 cents/pence (and way more) into the pot! Stir it all up and people will still be people, doing their own thing! Glad your "row" is growing well!! Give your wife a big hug!!

:hugs::hugs:

[GBNatarii]

Once more, the English language is not expressive enough. We use one word: LOVE, for many shades of affection where there might be Agape (total, all abiding absolute love), Filios (the caring for a sibling, family member, or friend within wide measure, and Eros (the sexual love of one's mate)... but is this comprehensive enough to cover such a vast subject. I think not.


Ah, the joys of being a linguist. Japanese "Ai" for love. "I ai you." Etc. Japanese "daisuki" for love... "I daisuki the movie so much." And "Suki." For... "I suki this article of clothing enough to debate buying it."

Back on topic: From my insanely limited understanding of love and marriage and all that great stuff, yes, all sides should be willing to compromise something. The question though, is the same one been asked since tribes started trading materials 5 thousand years ago; "Is what I'm going to get equal to what I am willing to give up?"

Personally, if I believe I'm not going to get what I want for what I have to sacrifice, I drop out, and pretty fast and hard too. Of course, I've never been in a situation similiar to possible marriage, or even already past the getting married part, so I don't know what I'd do there. But I'm still going to make the bet that I'd get out pretty fast.

I think every one should ask themselves that in a situation like OP Olivia stated. I mean, I guess that's what real relationships and marriage is like. But then again, I admit I'm not the greatest person in the world to seek advice on this subject from.

[Jan Michell Collins]

I think I'll tell me wife If she will let me dress I'll try harder to quite smoking !!!!!!!!!let's see how that works

[ReineD]

A few points have caught my attention more than others. Can philandering be equated to crossdressing? Is one an innate "part" of one's being, while the other is a "personality flaw"? Does "if you love me, you would let me express my 'true self!" resonate the same as "if you love me, you will let me have sex with other women"? That doesn't seem right.

Is crossdressing merely a "personality quirk"? Is the same thing as a "bad habit" like smoking or biting one's nails, or over-eating? Do any of you really think of crossdressing as a bad habit? Jeez, I hope not.:). It seems like more than that.

I've also seen CDing compared to an addiction or a compulsion. None of these work because CDing is not a self-destructive behavior and because it is a form of self-expression, it does not carry with it the negative connotations that philandering or addictions do.

So I'd like to use a different example. :)

Pretend I love snakes. Snakes are beautiful, and I have a near-spiritual connection with them. They speak to me!. In fact, I'm almost sure I was a snake in a different life. My love of snakes is a very deep part of who I am. I've collected snakes and snake paraphernalia all my life. I have snake tattoos, jewelry, and knickknacks all over the house.

Unfortunately, my husband has a deep-seated fear of snakes. He abhors them and he can't even look at one without feeling repulsed. When we were first together, I was in the throes of new love and my snake passion did take a back seat temporarily. But, we've been married for 10 years now and my passion is stronger than it has ever been.

I breed the snakes in my basement. My husband loves me, and he is OK with this but he NEVER comes downstairs with me. This makes me sad, because I would love to share my passion with someone. And it also makes me feel guilty because I know that every night before he goes to sleep, my husband worries whether one of the snakes has escaped and it is slithering around the house. But he does love me so he continually stuffs his fears. I have over 50 varieties of snakes including my prize snake, a boa constrictor. I feed my snakes live rodents and bugs that I purchase on the internet, so I also need to maintain a small area for the live food supply.

In time, I become somewhat of an expert and I want to learn even more. Other than a small amount of daily maintenance, what used to take up one or two evenings per week and perhaps one day on the weekend is now doubled. I need to expand my collection, and there is no more room in the basement, so it begins to spill over into different rooms. By this time, my husband has become somewhat inured to the snakes, and he can tolerate them in the living room and the den, but NOT in the bedroom. This would simply freak him out way too much.

My snake lifestyle is getting to be expensive. I am forever wanting to get better habitats with better climate controls, lighting, shelving, expensive books, and I spend hours online shopping for these. I also have found a snake forum (or two) filled with people with whom I can share my passion. I'm also thinking about writing an illustrated book about a particular variety of snakes, so I buy a camera and spend hours trying to get just the right picture. And of course I post them online because I want to share my beauties with the world.

My husband is beginning to feel neglected. So in an effort to not hurt him, I don't tell him about all the acquaintances I am continuing to make, nor does he know the extent of my shopping nor my growing passion about snakes. He's become resigned to sharing me with my hobby, so he begins to develop pastimes of his own to help fill the void. Over time we drift apart. We don't have the connection we used to have. Every once in awhile my husband begins to talk to me about my snake passion, but I don't want to hear it because I know he will ask me to cut back. And I can't. I don't understand why I should have to. It is part of who I am and if my husband loves me, he will understand this. I would love to have him participate and learn about the snakes, but he doesn't want to so I begin to feel cheated. I wonder what it would be like to share a life with someone who shares my passion.

So, it has gotten to the point when we do something together, after a few hours I can't wait to get back to my snakes and my snake forums. Of course I don't tell my husband this, but he does feel my impatience and short-temper. He begins to feel as if I've maybe begun an emotional affair with someone, because I don't explain to him what's going on with my snake passion. I don't want to talk about it with him because I know he would not understand. Remember, I don't want to hurt him.

So one day he looks up my internet history and he finds all the forums I belong to, email accounts he didn't know about, my hundreds of pictures of snakes, and even a meeting site where I have a profile because I want to meet like-minded people. But it's just for fun, mind you. We do fantasize about treks in the Amazon we would take together, but they are just fantasies.

I'll stop there. I wrote this because I hear stories from the CDer's who don't understand why their wives aren't more into the CDing. And I hear from the wives who feel hurt because they feel neglected. There really isn't any other point to my story except to provide a different way of thinking about things. :)

[Cheshire Gummi]

Alright, I'm gonna do it. Get ready for a lot of words that ain't nobody gonna read.

THIS IS MY MANIFESTO! *applause*


It's not hard to understand why people are bigoted. Bigotry is enforced with a fist. People have had it beaten and threatened into them by misguided zealots for generations. The idea that we are rejects because we don't accept the social definition of gender is older than any of us. That kind of unnecessary stain on the psychosocial development doesn't wash out with even the most sincere of promises.

Some people have really surprised me with their ability to tolerate and even accept, while others have shocked me with their partisanship. It's proof to me that it's not a random phenomenon. Right and wrong have been so skewed by a warped multicultural lie that the once definitive notion of "fact" has become a safe-haven for bias and ignorance. It is true that in order to say you believe in freedom of expression you must support your oppositions freedom of expression, however there is a clear definition between expression and oppression.

Or is it clear? Has it too been blurred by the idealists and their utter inability to see beyond their own doctrine? In truth, it has. The very notion of expression is under scrutiny; that I may somehow damage another person simply by behaving differently. I inflict no direct harm, but indirect harm is possible through differed perception, therefore I am endangering the status quo; for instance, the inability to wear certain religious symbols on ones clothing or body for fear that it would be perceived as an insult to another person of a contrary faith.

If it is not considered ludicrous to be denied ones right to decorate their body in a certain fashion, even if that fashion is contrary, then honestly, what is expression? Words? Cheap little words that are only as powerful as the thoughts of the person privy to them? Even those are being restricted because some have been deemed "dangerous."

Bigotry and ignorance seeded themselves in America long ago. I can't speak to as to other countries, but generally I can guess it's probably ripe in other parts of the world, as well. If it wasn't, we wouldn't have people from all over the world on this forum.

People have tried for centuries to purge the country of it, with mixed and limited results. For a while, we assumed the "seeds" had all been choked off by understanding and tolerance, save for a few rogues who wouldn't love their own mothers if they were "different." Well, the truth is, no, those little seeds aren't dead. They're in bloom actually. And now they're even more deceptive.

Racism has inverted itself, homosexuality is "tolerated" but more as a joke and a trifle than a reality, and STILL anyone who dares to step outside of the *mythical* boundaries of their penis or vagina is rejected, written out, or just a plain old goddamn joke. We're not our own people, we're damaged. We need "help." Oh, but we're just hilarious, too, aren't we? A man in a dress? Jolly good fun! Dance around and lip sync to some Mariah Carey while you're at it, there's a good boy.

Maybe I'm exaggerating. We certainly seem to be a bit better off than years ago. At least they're not hanging us from trees and igniting us. But look at the topic of this thread. Wives, who swore to love and do honor to their spouses, flat out rejecting them for wearing a stupid bra. As if there's some universally accepted rule book out there that says that THESE clothes can only go on THESE bodies, and that THESE behaviors are only go with THESE genitals.

So, what's the point? Disenfranchisement. I'm weary of society falling over itself to offer tolerance and benefit to people who are flat out racists and throwing people who are truly in need of some decent representation and understanding into the drain pipe. I get to hear about how something so pathetically unimportant as skin color and origin of birth makes certain very uninteresting people geniuses who have suffered the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, meanwhile they laugh about those sissies that wear dresses and how unclean they are.

I'm done for now. I don't feel better, but I think it's only going to get worse if I keep going.

It took an act of God to stop me from saying the f-word.

[Satrana]

I think this issues really depends upon what the SO thinks about your CDing. There is a major difference between not being interested or disliking a certain behavior and not wanting to partake in it, and just plain hating it with every fiber of your body.

So it is OK for a wife not desiring to join in or disliking aspects of the CDing like the need for secrecy etc. But if she just hates the whole idea and believes a man degrades himself by showing femininity then that is a different ball game.

Hate devours love. It may not happen overnight but the powerful negativity of hate will come to dominate a partner's feelings for you. Whatever feelings of love that remain will become increasingly scarce. Displays of compassion, empathy and forgiveness will disappear. The smallest mistake and your partner will be all over you like a ton of bricks.

Of course some couples decide to soldier on regardless because they do not want the heartache and problems of breaking up so the relationship transforms into a soulless marriage of convenience.

Humans were never designed to live together for decades of happy bliss. In natural conditions we had very short life spans. The reason why the love bug disappears after a few years is because that was the time needed for women to be supported by a male to raise an infant. So we must recognize that compatibility and understanding are essential components to a successful long term relationship. Hate condemns a loving relationship to the grave.

[Frédérique]

Love is indeed a two edged sword. It cuts both ways and hurts like hell!

Very true. I’m starting to think that “love” is another one of those overused words, said sometimes without thinking about how “heavy” it is. We hear people say it all the time, but, like the word “awesome,” they don’t know what it means. I have a girlfriend I’ve known for years, as close to SO as I’ll ever get, and she is always quick to drop the “L” word. Interpreting the full import of what I was hearing, I came out to her readily, but she began to think differently about me. Oh, she was amused all right, but not supportive. From that point forward, we eventually drifted apart – she even used my “secret” against me. I got very confused about the word “love,” that’s for sure! Recently I visited this girlfriend again after an absence of eight years (her idea), and she’s still very uncomfortable about what I do. Oh, she still says “I love you!” over and over, too – what does it all mean?

[dawnmarrie1961]

Frannie ,
Normally I only pick 4 posts to respond to each day. I scan the site in the morning. Pick 4 that interest me. Then copy them into WP for further analysis. Throughout the day I often think about them and what would be an appropriate response. Something that will lift their spirit in a positive manner, make them laugh, or inspire them to think a little more deeply and not rush to actions that might cause them harm. Normally I do 4 but today I'm only going to do yours. This one is for you.

You post concerned me, I read it all, because I feel a lot of negative vibes in your choice of words. I'm not attempting to be a critic. Lord knows my own writing could use a some help. I, also, have been know to slide to the non-positive dark side on occasion.

While reading your entry I felt like I was reading one of my youngest daughter's scribes. The poems and songs she has written over the years were filled with such darkness, sense of despair and desperation. Much like the music she used to listen to. She would show me them and ask my opinion. After I would read them I would look at her and say. "They are pretty good. But where's the light at the end of the tunnel. Where's the hope?" Sometimes her writing used to scare the hell out of me! Until I realized it was just her way of dealing with her emotions.

That's where her light was! Not what she put on paper. But the whole process of getting the negative feelings out from inside her. Sure she went through her semi-gothic stage, smoked some pot and had her experiment lesbian relationships just like any normal teenager would. (That is what a normal teenager would do isn't it? Had me worried there. I was beginning to think my daughter was just weird .) Growing up in my household wasn't the easiest thing for a young lady. Especially since she had a father that was in the process of trying to find himself, in many ways, the same way she was. We were growing up and maturing together. She was always, and still remains, very supportive of me. Now she's 21 and a young beautiful woman. (I'm selfish when it come's to that. All my girls are drop dead gorgeous!). She's no longer living in my nest. Now I have to, as a parent, stand back and watch her fly. See her soar! And that's the hardest thing for any parent who truly loves their children to do. Watch them as they sometimes fall to the ground hurt and disappointed. But that's the way we learn to fly. By making mistakes. Sometimes little ones. Sometimes huge ones! These things are necessary because we are given the choice to live or give up on life. We chose to live!

I look at your choice of avatar. All covered from head to toe in leather and I can't help but wonder. Is that the way you really see yourself? Are you so afraid to feel anything that you imagine yourself incased in a leather bubble?

Yes, it is true that I don't know you. I don't know anything about you other than the things that you have posted here. Maybe that's where you light is. Not what you've posted. But like my daughter, the whole idea that you've taken the time to post anything at all.

I want you to know that I do see "you". I see through all the leather attire.
I see you.
You are BEAUTIFUL to me!!

Be safe. Be Smart.

[Daphne7]

Wives, who swore to love and do honor to their spouses, flat out rejecting them for wearing a stupid bra. As if there's some universally accepted rule book out there that says that THESE clothes can only go on THESE bodies, and that THESE behaviors are only go with THESE genitals.

This quote is a harsh statement.
I am a married and accepting SO. But I can understand why some women are totally unaccepting.

A CDer isn't just wearing women's clothing. There is a whole lot more going on. An unaccepting wife is rejecting the "whole lot more" part.

Q.If it were just a stupid bra then why won't he not wear it.
A. because its waaay more than a stupid bra.

If the CDer didn't tell her about it before marriage why should she be forced to accept it in the name of love. She didn't ask for this to be part of her life, and she doesn't want it. In essence he has lied to her; and unaccepting wives may conclude that the whole marriage was false.

Regardless of why the CDer didn't tell --The wife needs to confront the betrayal, hurt and confusion that rains down on her when finding out that her heterosexual marriage actually involves another woman. She might even feel like the husband is cheating on her-- with himself.

Its a super huge deal. Suddenly the wife holds her life in her hands in a way she never before imagined. Her marriage will never be what it was, or what she thought it was going to be. She experiences a sort of death with this realization.

Her marriage is now unbelievably fragile and she MUST decide if she wants to stay married to a man that she thought she knew, but to whom it is glaringly obvious that she didn't fully know. She has to reconcile how she feels and thinks about this alarming reality. If she doesn't believe she can be happy with the full reality of this man then no amount of love will save their marriage.

It is possible to truly love someone and still choose that the best decision is to not be together.

[Cheshire Gummi]

I have some responses to write, it seems. I'll address them in order.


I look at your choice of avatar. All covered from head to toe in leather and I can't help but wonder. Is that the way you really see yourself? Are you so afraid to feel anything that you imagine yourself incased in a leather bubble?

Yes, it is true that I don't know you. I don't know anything about you other than the things that you have posted here. Maybe that's where you light is. Not what you've posted. But like my daughter, the whole idea that you've taken the time to post anything at all.

I want you to know that I do see "you". I see through all the leather attire.
I see you.
You are BEAUTIFUL to me!!

Be safe. Be Smart.

First of all, I find it very flattering that you took all of your time to address me directly. It means a lot that you'd take a personal interest in my well-being.

Secondly, I appreciate your analogy with my avatar. I mean, that picture in my avatar isn't me. It isn't a leather girl, it's actually... well, long story short, it's a female representation of my favorite television character as a kid. But I get your meaning. The truth is I'm not encased in anything, but my mind has a fair bit of darkness poking around in it.

Some pretty horrible things have happened to me and they've skewed my perspective a bit. I'm not going to get into all of them publicly, but for a long time I was very angry at the world and myself. I don't know how to deal with it, aside from raging about it and lashing out. It's taken me five years to get where I am, but sometimes you just get mad. Sometimes you look straight into the abyss and it's all you can think about for a while. Anger. It's nothing new and I didn't mean to seem hateful, I just tend to get worked up. Maybe I shift a few more gears than most people when they're mad. That's why I decided to step away.

I'm not going to get defensive and say "You don't know me." That's not the sort of person I am. I like peoples opinions, even disapproving or opposing ones. They don't bother me anymore. On the same token, I do honestly believe what I wrote, even if my language was harsh. Maybe I muddled through a few points and spoke with some aggression, but I wouldn't have wrote that if I didn't sincerely feel that way.

I don't think the world is sunshine all the time and I don't believe that looking into the mouth of Hell is an automatic corruption of the spirit. People are forced to suffer, they are abused, many for frivolous reasons, some even die. If no one gets angry, how can it change?



This quote is a harsh statement.
I am a married and accepting SO. But I can understand why some women are totally unaccepting.

A CDer isn't just wearing women's clothing. There is a whole lot more going on. An unaccepting wife is rejecting the "whole lot more" part.

Q.If it were just a stupid bra then why won't he not wear it.
A. because its waaay more than a stupid bra.

If the CDer didn't tell her about it before marriage why should she be forced to accept it in the name of love. She didn't ask for this to be part of her life, and she doesn't want it. In essence he has lied to her; and unaccepting wives may conclude that the whole marriage was false.

Regardless of why the CDer didn't tell --The wife needs to confront the betrayal, hurt and confusion that rains down on her when finding out that her heterosexual marriage actually involves another woman. She might even feel like the husband is cheating on her-- with himself.

Its a super huge deal. Suddenly the wife holds her life in her hands in a way she never before imagined. Her marriage will never be what it was, or what she thought it was going to be. She experiences a sort of death with this realization.

Her marriage is now unbelievably fragile and she MUST decide if she wants to stay married to a man that she thought she knew, but to whom it is glaringly obvious that she didn't fully know. She has to reconcile how she feels and thinks about this alarming reality. If she doesn't believe she can be happy with the full reality of this man then no amount of love will save their marriage.

It is possible to truly love someone and still choose that the best decision is to not be together.

I know you're married, but you're missing the forest for the trees here. I'm not commenting on lies (besides, what if someone discovers this AFTER their married?), I'm commenting on the fact that it's not a betrayal of anything except a false system of pseudo-scientific behavioral assignment that was made up years ago for god knows why. The investment that some people have into the idea of the "this is man, this is woman, they're absolutely night and day," is so ingrained that they would rather destroy a relationship to someone they made a promise to than consider any alternative to the almighty golden calf that is the gender stereotype.

This nonsense shouldn't be a part of our society at all, let alone a large enough factor to merit turning a supposedly loving relationship inside out. Besides all that, how does a bra change the fundamentals of a persons character? En femme and en homme, my moral compass and mettle are exactly the same, because it's still me! If they were different, I'd be suffering from Multiple Personality Disorder. I'm just a little more swishy when I dress, big deal. Why should that throw a marriage for a loop?

If you don't love someone for what's really inside them and you marry them, only to divorce them because the clothes they wear and the way the carry themselves changes, then you're the liar, period. Isn't there something deeper inside everyone than just face value? Isn't your character more important than your cross-dressing? My feelings for other human beings, my desire to do some good in this life, my will and intellect... these are all FAR more important than how I carry myself or what I wear. If someone claims to love me for what's deep down inside and then rejects me because the surface changes, then they're the backstabber. Not me.

Is that fair to say?

[Daphne7]

I'm commenting on the fact that it's not a betrayal of anything except a false system of pseudo-scientific behavioral assignment that was made up years ago for god knows why. The investment that some people have into the idea of the "this is man, this is woman, they're absolutely night and day," is so ingrained that they would rather destroy a relationship to someone they made a promise to than consider any alternative to the almighty golden calf that is the gender stereotype.

my moral compass and mettle are exactly the same, because it's still me!

I'm just a little more swishy when I dress, big deal. Why should that throw a marriage for a loop?

If you don't love someone for what's really inside them and you marry them, only to divorce them because the clothes they wear and the way the carry themselves changes, then you're the liar, period. Isn't there something deeper inside everyone than just face value? Isn't your character more important than your cross-dressing? My feelings for other human beings, my desire to do some good in this life, my will and intellect... these are all FAR more important than how I carry myself or what I wear. If someone claims to love me for what's deep down inside and then rejects me because the surface changes, then they're the backstabber. Not me.

Is that fair to say?

Human societies function by making up rules and requiring agreement to those rules in order to be accepted into the group/society. We were all raised with a "false system of pseudo-scientific behavioral assignment"

So why be surprised when someone actually buys into the system. The majority of people do.

the marriage is thrown for a loop because it appears one person's moral compass and mettle was deceiving. Would the wife have agreed to marry had she known about the CDing? Where is the honor and duty buried in a promise of marriage if he agrees to an accepted behavioral assignment and then after the promise has been made- the truth is revealed that he hid the fact of his CDing nature from her?

There is a betrayal of original intent. They married with the intent to be MAN and Wife within that society's "false system of pseudo-scientific behavioral assignment." The CDer hadn't fully divulged to the wife "what's really inside [him]them" before he agreed to marry.

Are you seeing the entire forest? When a man accepts that CDing is part of who he is and needs his wife to accept that as well, then he has had more than just surface changes. Is it fair to say: A change of that magnitude requires a reevaluation of the marriage promises they made to each other.


You are truly a joy to banter ideas with. It is a rare person that can look at things with this level of depth.

[Satrana]

A CDer isn't just wearing women's clothing. There is a whole lot more going on. An unaccepting wife is rejecting the "whole lot more" part.
The problem with that line of reasoning is unaccepting wives typically reject the CDing from the outset before they know what it means and also refuse to read books or join forums to learn about it. They also usually refuse to join in any CDing behavior or even discuss it with their partners. So I am not sure how unaccepting wives can be rejecting this "whole lot more" aspects when typically they refuse to learn what that might be and make up their minds on little to no information.

What they are rejecting is a preconceived notion of what a CD is, and what it means, and a rejection of the idea that is OK, normal and healthy for a man to express a feminine side to his nature. "Real" men don't do this and unaccepting partners report feeling cheated that they don't have the real man they want and desire and that everyone else has.



If the CDer didn't tell her about it before marriage why should she be forced to accept it in the name of love. She didn't ask for this to be part of her life, and she doesn't want it. Any change of circumstance after the marriage vows falls into this category as well. Does that mean a man who goes bald but had a full head of hair when he got married can be rejected and discarded? People change, circumstances change, marriage is about adapting to change and you are supposed to love your partner warts and all, including warts that appear after the day of marriage. To justify rejecting your partner by claiming they have to be the same person they were on their wedding day is bizarre.

And what about CDs who start after marriage - do they get a free pass?



The wife needs to confront the betrayal, hurt and confusion that rains down on her when finding out that her heterosexual marriage actually involves another woman. The other woman is only true in some situations. There are plenty of CDs who do not feel like women and do not present themselves as women. Even so, this group of CDs report unaccepting wives as well. Again this illustrates that it is the mere practice of a man donning an item of female clothing is all that is required to trigger intolerance.


Its a super huge deal. Only if you are intolerant to the idea men can enjoy their own femininity. If you accept this then it is not a big deal at all, in fact it is an opportunity to move emotionally closer to your partner.


She experiences a sort of death with this realization. No the death of a preconception. It is true that it comes as a surprise to most women but it should not since women can now freely enjoy masculine pursuits if they so wish then it does not require much thought to understand that the same freedom and equality must be extended to men as well. But this is indeed an idea that the average woman has probably never ever considered before.



It is possible to truly love someone and still choose that the best decision is to not be together. You mean love the part of the person you approve of. That is the easy part. True love includes the warts. True love is when you are prepared to sacrifice part of yourself to accept another.

I mean if your son turns out to be a CD, will you throw him out of the house because it is best not to be together?

Edit- extra comments-


So why be surprised when someone actually buys into the system. The majority of people do. But if you love someone is it too much to ask to break out of the artificial system that is harming the one you love.


Where is the honor and duty buried in a promise of marriage if he agrees to an accepted behavioral assignment and then after the promise has been made- the truth is revealed that he hid the fact of his CDing nature from her So a woman who was married in the 1960s made a promise to live within traditional female behaviors and she is being deceitful if she freed herself from her gender stereotype years later? Again your notion that the rules are fixed in stone as of the day of marriage leaves no compromise to change or even for empathy and understanding. Are we really discussing love here or an excuse to justify someone's desire to keep their partner bound up in gender restrictions for their own happiness.



There is a betrayal of original intent. They married with the intent to be MAN and Wife within that society's "false system of pseudo-scientific behavioral assignment" So wearing a skirt means the CD can no longer be considered a man? A wife can no longer consider him to be a husband? How come you are not applying these same standards to women since they have been radically changing their gender behavior for the past decades? Have women been betraying men as they redefined their roles?

[Daphne7]

I'm trying to give a perspective that may allow CDer's with unaccepting SOs to better understand what possible reasoning the wife may have.

If she feels betrayed then that is how she feels. How she feels is her reality and cannot be brushed aside any more then the CD'ers feelings and his reality.

The key to being accepting may be to acknowledge reality as it is and not how we wish it to be.

We all love lots of people, but we each have certain expectations of the SO/wife/husband role. The reality is that some women do not want CDing as part of their life no matter how much they love the man. In a way these women are extremely strong by standing up for the morals they believe in.

[Daphne7]

You mean love the part of the person you approve of. That is the easy part. True love includes the warts. True love is when you are prepared to sacrifice part of yourself to accept another.

I mean if your son turns out to be a CD, will you throw him out of the house because it is best not to be together?

That is NOT what I mean at all.
I disagree with your definition of true love. That definition is what allows for the circular argument of "If you truly loved me you'd __x_y_z___ ie If you truely loved her then why don't you stay in the system with her? Why can't you accept her wart- to remain in the mainstream-" See.. its a circular argument. You can have it until the cows come home.

To me, true love is not about sacrifice. It is about growth. True lovers do not need to sacrifice themselves in order to accept each other.

When I decided to be an accepting SO I didn't need to be prepared to sacrifice part of myself in order to accept him. I didn't need to be a martyr to accept him. I grew in order to accept him. I grew to understand that there was more to life than I had previously thought and I chose to fully embrace and support my husband. According to my moral code that was the best decision I could make given the circumstances.

Love is not about living in the same house. I love my mother but living together doesn't work for us, we drive each other crazy. Just because you can't get along with someone doesn't mean you don't love them.

[Satrana]

If she feels betrayed then that is how she feels. How she feels is her reality and cannot be brushed aside any more then the CD'ers feelings and his reality. If a person's feelings are based upon intolerance then why should they be justified? Would you feel a need to explain why a racist feels what they feel? Should a male chauvinist's feelings be taken onto account when he demands no women should be allowed inside his social club. I believe when feelings are based on wrong or harmful ideas then the onus should be on educating them not on others empathizing with their pain.


The key to being accepting may be to acknowledge reality as it is and not how we wish it to be. Shouldn't that advice to directed at unaccepting wives - they are the ones who are refusing to accept reality.


We all love lots of people, but we each have certain expectations of the SO/wife/husband role. Expectations which have changed dramatically in recent years, so why is MTF CDing considered too much to adjust to? Is it because for the first time it requires a shift in the perception of what constitutes a man?


In a way these women are extremely strong by standing up for the morals they believe in. So racists and bigots are to be considered strong for standing up to what they believe in?

What is so right about keeping men bound to a gender stereotype that forbids the expression of a man's feminine side (which all men possess) while it is OK for women to display masculinity?

BTW I am just arguing the points, none of this is directed at you personally.:hugs:

[Satrana]

See.. its a circular argument. A valid argument if the two sides carried equal morality. But they dont. Apply your argument to whether women should be given the vote. We all know what the right argument is. Sticking with the status quo is not defensible when the rights of others are being trampled upon.


To me, true love is not about sacrifice. It is about growth. True lovers do not need to sacrifice themselves in order to accept each other. Here we need to agree to disagree. To me the point of love is the joining together of two individuals to form a new single whole. That does require both individuals to lose part of their individuality. Without that sacrifice then you have 2 people cohabitating without commitment.


When I decided to be an accepting SO An odd thing to say. You either are or are not accepting. Unless you went through a process of re-education and realignment of your perceptions perhaps a more accurate statement was that it took you time to assess where you stood on the subject due to the confusion and pain you felt. Once the fog cleared you knew the right direction to proceed.


I didn't need to be prepared to sacrifice part of myself in order to accept him. I think you did, you just don't realize it yet.



Love is not about living in the same house. I love my mother but living together doesn't work for us, we drive each other crazy. Just because you can't get along with someone doesn't mean you don't love them. True but in the same vein you would not stop loving your mother if she started wearing pants after a lifetime of wearing skirts. True love is about recognizing the person underneath and accepting them. Unacceptance is not about things which dives us nuts, it is about outright rejection.

[Olivia]

Excellent discussion! Thank you so much. I've been married for 32 years. I told Jackie that I was a crossdresser a couple years before we married. She was the first person to know. I believed that if I wanted to have a future with her, including marriage and children, then she deserved to know what she was getting. We were younger, and caught up in passion and emotion, and neither us knew where my CDing might end up. I, of course, did evolve as a crossdresser. Albeit, it happened gradually as most of these 'journeys' do. Still, I don't think Jackie could have known, anymore than I did, that someday I would be "Olivia" to the extent that I am now.

Would she prefer that I was not a crossdresser? I imagine so. But, she understands that it is a part of me and one that cannot be denied. She accepts that part, and I am grateful that she does. But, would I have married her if she had not? Probably not. We have a great partnership and she has really become my "canary in the coal mine", pulling me back when my enthusiasm gets the best of me. She tells me when she thinks I'm going too far in "pushing that envelope", reminding me to be cautious when I should be.

I wouldn't have married anyone without telling them of my crossdressing. In my opinion (worth very little, lol), that was the right thing to do. Do you think that is a crucial step in receiving the acceptance so many of us desire? I mean, it does allow one to know what level of acceptance one might expect. But, can it be that simple? Can that honesty provide a litmus test for the future?

[dawnmarrie1961]

Good day, ladies.
Frannie, thanks for not taking what I said out of context. I will continue our discussion using private messaging.

To every one else I found an interesting quote that rings true for most of us. Oliva sorry if it seems like I'm trying to hijack you thread. I'm not.
Here's the quote .I hope I hear it right.

Stewart Bernard Shaw "The reasonable man adapts to the world around him. The unreasonable man expects the world to adapt to him. Therefore all progress is made by the reasonable man."

Crossdressing or transitioning is our way of adapting to the world around us. We shouldn't expect the world to except or adapt to suit our needs. That would be what the unreasonable man would do. So we try to be reasonable men and woman knowing full well that progress can only be made in this manner.

Be Safe . Be smart.

[Daphne7]

If a person's feelings are based upon intolerance then why should they be justified? I believe when feelings are based on wrong or harmful ideas then the onus should be on educating them not on others empathizing with their pain.

Shouldn't that advice to directed at unaccepting wives - they are the ones who are refusing to accept reality.

Expectations which have changed dramatically in recent years, so why is MTF CDing considered too much to adjust to? Is it because for the first time it requires a shift in the perception of what constitutes a man?

So racists and bigots are to be considered strong for standing up to what they believe in?

What is so right about keeping men bound to a gender stereotype that forbids the expression of a man's feminine side (which all men possess) while it is OK for women to display masculinity?

BTW I am just arguing the points, none of this is directed at you personally.:hugs:

A person's feelings are valid, period. Regardless of right or wrong. Love is not swayed by who's right or wrong. The choices we make are swayed by what we perceive to be right and wrong.

My advice was that BOTH of the people accept reality. The wife needs to accept that her husbands need/desire to express CDing is a reality, and the CDer needs to accept his wife's need/desire to be part of the mainstream system.

I'm saying accept each other for who they are and try to understand the other person's perception. It is not necessary to agree with the other person's perception in order to understand what life factors have influenced and shaped them into who they are today.

"When I decided to be an accepting SO" I had a choice to make, and I made it. I stand by that. I had to chose if I wanted to continue my marriage with the new information I had just received. My reality was that I had to decide if I wanted CDing to be part of my life. My marriage was on a cliff and I had to decide if I wanted to walk away or take the plunge. Taking the plunge wasn't a sacrifice, I decided I would be accepting and I then I wanted to be accepting. I let go of preconceived notions based on my reality to date (which were formed by the status quo). But letting go of those notions wasn't a sacrifice. Those "sacrifices" were no longer part of who I was, I had grown, I made a conscious decision. I had never considered his reality therefore I did not know what I would decide. Even after deciding I gave my self another chance- I thought "I don't have to do this" and my immediate answer was "I want to". And I knew at that moment I had already taken the plunge and there was no going back. I was remarkably self-aware.

Don't deny me my reality by saying I was in a fog and that I knew all along. I didn't. I made a choice. Please suspend disbelief and consider that this is my perception of reality. Though different from yours, mine is no less valid than yours.

People don't always choose to do the "right thing" The status quo can be disturbingly selfish and self-righteous.

Again, accepting is not about who's right or wrong.

Changing the status quo requires a ton of effort. Women fought and fought and fought to change the status quo. African Americans did too. Gay/lesbians fight and fight and fight to change the status quo. Are CDer's? Yes, but so far not in numbers large enough to win the battle.
Seems that many CDer's believe in the status quo too. They stay in the closet. They choose to conceal this part of them, often because they've weighed the pros and cons and have decideded that they'd rather not deal with all the hardships that would become their reality if they went against the status quo.

[Cheshire Gummi]

Human societies function by making up rules and requiring agreement to those rules in order to be accepted into the group/society. We were all raised with a "false system of pseudo-scientific behavioral assignment"

So why be surprised when someone actually buys into the system. The majority of people do.

the marriage is thrown for a loop because it appears one person's moral compass and mettle was deceiving. Would the wife have agreed to marry had she known about the CDing? Where is the honor and duty buried in a promise of marriage if he agrees to an accepted behavioral assignment and then after the promise has been made- the truth is revealed that he hid the fact of his CDing nature from her?

There is a betrayal of original intent. They married with the intent to be MAN and Wife within that society's "false system of pseudo-scientific behavioral assignment." The CDer hadn't fully divulged to the wife "what's really inside [him]them" before he agreed to marry.

Are you seeing the entire forest? When a man accepts that CDing is part of who he is and needs his wife to accept that as well, then he has had more than just surface changes. Is it fair to say: A change of that magnitude requires a reevaluation of the marriage promises they made to each other.


You are truly a joy to banter ideas with. It is a rare person that can look at things with this level of depth.


You're pretty wrapped up in a discussion with someone else, but I'm just going to clarify. It's distinctly possible that the other individual you're talking to has said this and I just didn't notice it, but here goes.

When I made my statement about marriage and gender roles, I was speaking in the general. The gender roles that were established have long been accepted and I understand why contorting them in contemporary society, and in contemporary marriage, generates outrage and feelings of confusion and betrayal. However, I do not believe, at all, that those gender roles are absolute and should be granted any credence in a society that calls itself "progressive."

For example, it was established 200 years ago that black people did not deserve the rights of white people, a role assigned by society. When a white person fell in love with a black person or attempted to be with them, it was a social betrayal. People were hanged and disowned for it. In that instance, it was color, not gender, but the point is still valid.

Just because it's established and society thrives on the establishment of a false order does not make it moral, acceptable, or even justifiable. I understand your point; I understand that honesty is paramount to a relationship and I also understand that it is a rather large adjustment to accept a CD as your husband (or wife) in this day and age.

However, I feel it's reasonable to say that that adjustment is based almost exclusively around a system of obtuse ideals and obsolete rationale. That's all I'm really trying to say. I'm not commenting on the emotional affects of lying and deception, I'm commenting on the unnecessary stigma of wanting to feel like the opposite gender.

[Satrana]

A person's feelings are valid, period. Regardless of right or wrong.

No feelings are often not valid. Hitler felt Jews were sub-human and were the cause of Germany's problems. His solution was to exterminate them. Were Hitler's feelings valid?

Definition of valid:

1: having legal efficacy or force especially executed with the proper legal authority and formalities
2 well-grounded or justifiable being at once relevant and meaningful; logically correct
3: appropriate to the end; effective

All forms of prejudice are not valid. They are not well-grounded, not justifiable, not meaningful, not logical, not appropriate.

Unfortunately humans have a natural tendency towards bias and prejudice. These tendencies have been institutionalized in our history so that they were considered legal, normal and socially acceptable. Modern society has recognized the immorality in these prejudices and has systematically been dismantling them despite the efforts of conservative forces to keep them in place.

Exercising prejudice in a social setting is now illegal and punishable. The fact that the state does not impose these laws on private relationships does not diminish the invalid and immoral properties of prejudices. You will not be punished for subjecting your partner to your prejudices but you will be if you impose them on a third party.

Unless someone can give a logical, rational and moral reason why men cannot display femininity especially in an age of legally enforced gender equality then the transphobic feelings of a partner do not carry any validity.

[Hope]

I officiated at what could charitably be called the wedding from hell this weekend (mostly because of bridezilla, but that is another story) so perhaps I am a bit jaded about the issue at hand... But at the same time I was unusually struck by a particular passage in the marriage vows (which is unusual, because once you have walked 30 or so couples through them they become a lot less "special" to you than they once were).

The passage in question is the "love honor and respect" (I also added "obey" for the bridezilla - hehe... Don't mess with the missionary man - ahem). I guess the point is - that the folks who put this formulation together knew what they were doing. This is really what it takes for a marriage to work. Love, honor, respect.

If your wife provides this for you, and you for her - the rest will fall into place. I think in the relationships where a wife comes unglued about dressing, or tries to forbid it - at least one of the three is missing.

[Satrana]

I agree with you Hope. The central tenets of a loving relationship are seemingly cast aside when CDing enters the equation. For some reason this subject sometimes brings out the worst in people. It makes you realize society has not progressed as far as we would like to believe.

[JackieRay]

I first dressed when I was 14 for Halloween at first it was just a lark then as years rolled by I started looking forward to it and putting real effort into doing it well my stepsister helped me with makeup and hairstyle I went to my junior prom in full finery then puberty slapped the hell out of me. My voice changed a MY ADAMS APPLE jumped into my throat and I grew whiskers. My senior year i did Halloween but couldn't get it together for the prom and my singing voice was gone when I met my Wife she knew about my yearly fling and Seemed OK with it she even took over from my sister who had married a moved away
The last time I dressed was Halloween of 1965 when my son was 6 MO Lodi put him in a baby carriage and dressed as a Nurse (nanny) and went out around the neighborhood The next year she ask me to give it up so I did for 44 years then in march of this year she died! Going through her things
I came across a silk blouse it felt good so I put it on a pair of slacks a wig and a pair of heels I garbed my keys an went for drive On my birthday in may I Went Feme 24/7 and haven't Looked back

JackieRay