For CDer's: Insight into my GG type

[Daphne7]

Growing up as a GG taught me that there were ALWAYS other girls to compete with. I am constantly comparing myself to other girls, and feeling bad about myself because of it.

So, when my hubby told me about his CD'ing, I felt threatened. I try to be as honest as I can with him, and that includes telling him he looks good when he's dressed. I genuinely mean it too. But I am saying it because I know how awesome it feels when he genuinely compliments me in the same way.

If he denies my genuine compliment its like a slap in the face. I console myself by reminding myself that the denial isn't about me, its about his low self-esteem regarding this aspect of his life.

When I compliment him I am specific, telling him what looks good ie. mascara looks great. BUT I don't mention that his eyeshadow could use some work until I feel out his mood to decide if he wants to hear constructive criticism at that moment.

Sometimes he just wants to feel pretty and receive a compliment, without being told how I think he could improve. I assume this because I feel that way too sometimes.


If I could tell my hubby, (without actually having to tell him.- cause it's not sexy if I have to tell him)...

I'd say and ask for:

I want to be accepted for the woman that I am just as much as you want to be accepted for the woman that you aren't. The difference is, the woman I am is all I've got.

My woman's clothing doesn't make me a woman. I don't identify with my clothing in that way, though sometimes my clothing makes me feel better about myself. That fact that you like to wear things that I wouldn't wear is a hit to my feminine self-esteem-- feels like you expect me to be more of a woman than I am, but I AM a woman. And it hurts.

Please, please, please,
1. Get me something I want, not something you want. (and not just clothing) Go ahead buy something for yourself, then get me a sweet/romantic card with a gift card or some cash-- tell me you know you've bought a bunch of stuff for yourself recently and you wanted to get something for me, but wasn't sure what to get.-- This gives me the go ahead to treat myself to something nice (the same way you treated yourself) and I won't feel guilty about it. --I have a hard time justifying spending money on what I deem to be frivolous things for myself.
2. Lavish me with verbal AND non-verbal compliments that are meant to boost my self-confidence. If i am so special to you than prove it with your behavior toward me... be thoughtful and considerate.
Suggestions:
a. Touch me more. In fleeting, non-sexually expectant way ie. come up behind me and wrap your arms around me and drop your head to my shoulder/neck while I'm doing something in the kitchen. Just BE with me in that moment.
b. Put your hand on the small of my back-guiding me in front of you when the opportunity naturally presents itself. Its a gentlemanly gesture that makes me feel that you value me as a lady that deserves tenderness.
c. Be infatuated with my hair- play with it, twirl it around your finger, rub a finger or two back and forth or in a small circle on my scalp. I can't feel it when you hold the hair like a ponytail and flick the loose end around- I like it when you engage the roots of my hair- that's where the nerve endings are. I like a little tension/tugging/pulling. Its a small simple thing you can do to show me some of the man in you (by taking control.)
d. My eyes ARE amazing. Notice and tell me so. Look into them, study how the color changes from the dark rims and changes again around the pupil. Study my eyes while I study yours, Touch my jaw, don't say a word and gently kiss me, then study my eyes again. We'd experience a precious connection if you did that.
e. Share a secret moment with me by brushing my arm for a fleeting/seductive moment while in the company of others- make the contact a casual thing (not a PDA) but create that sexual spark by thinking how gorgeous/amazing I am- if you think something intense like that I'll be able to tell the touch was meaningful not just happenstance or mechanical.
f. I expect your verbal compliments to be better than the average man's compliments since you CD and therefore are not just any man. You know what the rush feels like when receiving a REAL compliment.
g. Back down every once in a while when I give you a suggestion on girl stuff-- especially when it comes with the delicate inner workings of how girls relate to each other. I was treated as a girl my entire childhood- you weren't. There are intuitive things I know that you never will. I've been a girl a lot longer than you. We won't see eye-to-eye on everything (no one does) but I am hard-wired as a girl, please give me the respect I deserve and assume that I might actually know what the hell I'm talking about it even though I can't prove or logically explain why I'm right. When you won't back down I respect you less for not accepting me as unconditionally as I accept you.

[Kimmy55]

I honestly dont think your asking for too much.:battingeyelashes:

[Daphne7]

me either, but how do i tell him, without telling him?
I suppose this is proof of me wishing he could read my mind.

But If I tell him to do something specific and he does it- then its weird, cause I told him to. These things are what I'd like him to naturally do on his own. I don't want him to do them just because I told him to.

[TG-Taru]

Nice post :)

This caught my eye:


That fact that you like to wear things that I wouldn't wear is a hit to my feminine self-esteem-- feels like you expect me to be more of a woman than I am, but I AM a woman. And it hurts.


No need to feel like that, people have different tastes and preferences in clothing, and they can change too. You are no less of a woman for not wearing (for example) a frilly dress, just because you partner likes to. Would be boring if everyone dressed similarly. :hugs:

Remember too that a cd might feel the need to use all the little things possible to appear feminine, whereas you don't need to, you already are.

[Sarah Doepner]

Thank you for the post and reminders. One of the common things we see here is the reminder to those coming out to their S.O. is we have been working on accepting our feminine side for years and we can't expect them to get up to speed in 15 minutes or even 15 weeks. The flip side is also true as you point out. You have been female all your life and there is nothing we can do to duplicate your life history and understanding. It's a real treasure if you are willing to share your experience to help us do better as we explore your world.

[Fab Karen]

Sounds like there's a communication issue- a guy can't read a woman's mind, no matter how many might wish for that. Needs have to be discussed in a relationship ( at least one that you want to last ). IF it feels too difficult, you could find a couple's therapist to work on communication with each other.

[nancyish]

Dear Daphne,Thanks 4 the reminder that while we are pressing towards the feminine you have already attained and you should be adored (and respected) for it.Best of luck in your situation and i believe it will go well for you.Nancy

[Kathi Lake]

Daphne, thank you so much for a wonderful post! For many of us, the feedback that you give to your spouse is what we dream of! I can take constructive criticism. I can take a compliment that I know is not entirely true or deserved (because I know the spirit it was given in). What is harder to take is the cold, stony silence that comes from our spouses when they're in the midst of a "body-image crisis" and they see us in something they know they'll never fit in. No amount of telling them that they are much more feminine than we'll ever be or that our metabolisms are different will cool that anger.

It also sounds like your spouse has some image problems of their own. It's hard looking into a mirror and seeing a man in makeup staring back at us sometimes. In those times, no amount of compliments by you will ever help, so don't feel slighted if his mood is sour - it's not you - honest! Just like women, we have body-image crises, bad hair days, days where our eyeshadow just isn't working and the like. Compound that with an inner feeling of "I really shouldn't be doing this" and you'll see why sometimes our moods go South.

Again, talk with your spouse. Love your spouse. Remember always that although we may dress and like to appear as women, though we may have a good "womanly tool-kit" of mannerisms, makeup knowledge, fashion and more, that we're still guys. That means we're bloody clueless! :) If you would like us to do certain things, tell us! We will be more than happy to oblige. We'll be even happier that you told us what to do rather than having to divine it from your hints and body language. We really suck at that, as I'm sure you know.

Kathi

[Wen4cd]

Write a romantic story where the dude does what you want him to do. Leave it where he'll find it (pretend you're trying to hide it.)

[sissystephanie]

Daphne,

If you have read many of my posts, you know that I am all about open and honest communication. Why not tell him what you wrote in your thread opener? But preface it by saying something like this, "Honey, I know you love to dress like a woman and I don't have a problem with that. I would like to help you look even better, if you will let me. After all, I have been doing it more years then you have! I can help you with makeup, etc." But skip paragraph G. That is way too negative!

The fact that he wears clothes that you wouldn't be seen in is only a problem if you let it be one. I would bet there is a big difference in your sizes and build. What you prefer maybe he can't wear. My wife was a Petite 12 and I am a regular size 16. No way could I wear the type of clothes she wore, nor did I want to! She was very "frilly" lady. I am not! But she didn't care as long as I was happy with what I was wearing! Yes, she was totally supportive of my CD activities!

The main thing is that you obviously support his crossdressing activities, and you need to let him know that in no uncertain terms. If you compliment him, but think his mascara could be done better, tell him so! Then offer to help him do it so he will prettier! He must need more self confidence, and if you reach out to him in this fashion he will get it! Best of Luck to both of you!
:hugs::hugs:

[Amy Lynn3]

Daphne,
I agree with you completly. I am no expert, but feel all women are the same in this respect and desire to have the same things as you, at least the ones I have known. I think all males should take a heads up and copy your list of desires and put them into action, if they want happy women in their lives. Its worked every time for me. My 2 cents.

[TxKimberly]

What an AWESOME post and view in to the mind of a woman, a wife, a lover. I Think that rates right up there as one of the top two or three sweetest posts I've read and if it were up to me it would be a sticky so that it never gets buried.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and wishes. :-)

[Rachel Morley]

I feel sad for you that you have to ask for all those things. :sad: Love comes in many guises but to me, what you're asking for, I thought, was all part and parcel of being in love. :sad: In other words shouldn't all those things come naturally to a person in love?

[Ralph]

I feel sad for you that you have to ask for all those things.

That was my first thought, too. It's another in a long line of comments from GGs that many times we get way too wrapped up in admiring our own girlyness that we forget to step off the pedestal and put someone else there for a while.

[Daphne7]

There is definitely a communication issue, there always has been.



Remember always that although we may dress and like to appear as women, though we may have a good "womanly tool-kit" of mannerisms, makeup knowledge, fashion and more, that we're still guys. That means we're bloody clueless! :) If you would like us to do certain things, tell us! We will be more than happy to oblige. We'll be even happier that you told us what to do rather than having to divine it from your hints and body language. We really suck at that, as I'm sure you know.

Kathi

I am a very direct and blunt person, it goes hand-in-hand with my tomboy nature. He and I have a past that includes me telling him certain things I'd like him to do and he STILL doesn't do them. And I've brought up those same things multiple times, hoping that he'd actually listen eventually. But it just never sticks.

Since I couldn't get through to him verbally I tried the non-verbal hints and he doesn't pick up on that either. Its so frustrating!

When I found out he is a CD'er I thought that our communication would get better. That as a CDer he'd be able to understand me as a woman better, or at least listen to me more closely and take me seriously. I thought --good, some of the guy crap that drives me nuts will go away since I'm accepting and he can be who he truly is around me-- But it hasn't worked out that way yet.


I feel sad for you that you have to ask for all those things. :sad: Love comes in many guises but to me, what you're asking for, I thought, was all part and parcel of being in love. :sad: In other words shouldn't all those things come naturally to a person in love?

I feel sad for me too.

I also thought all those things were part of the love package, which is why having to spell it out to him is something I don't want to do, because I shouldn't have to.

I want romance. But I don't want him to be romantic unless his romantic behavior is genuine. If I give him the ABC's and he follows the instructions then all the warm fuzzy's from the romantic behavior dissolve.

This is really a*#-backwards to say, but it makes sense to my GG friends:
If I tell him what to do, and he does it, then it feels like he's only doing it because I told him. And I don't want him to do it for that reason. I want him to do those things because he wants to- and if he wants to then he should be able to think up those little romantic things on his own.

Its like guys get an easy ride because they say "I can't read your mind." and push the fault back onto the girl. NO one can mind read- but everyone can try harder.

I'd advise anyone who says they can't read minds to pay more attention.

[TxKimberly]

Every so often I see posts like this that make me think about how I fall short with my own wife of 22 years. Right after I read your thread, I went across the table to where my wife is internet surfing on her laptop and gave her a long hug. It's a little thing but hey . . .

[TGMarla]

Thank you, Daphne, for one of the sweetest and most insightful posts I have ever read. Rachel is right in that in an ideal situation, all of these things should come naturally. But as a guy, and as a crossdresser, I can tell you with some authority that while we may have some insight as to what it feels like to be feminine, we are also (all guys!) constantly trying to figure out just how women tick. And this glimpse inside of your most sensuous thoughts, on how to non-verbally relate and at what times, on how you react to small nothings and place such importance on them, is an eye-opening and wonderful read. Kimberly's right. It's sticky-worthy.

Perhaps it is those small things that we as crossdressers are striving to experience. As men, we are expected to be the givers, not the receivers. And receiving such casual, yet sensuous gestures must be a wonderful and fulfilling experience. I'm going to wear a smile for a while now, after reading this. Thanks!

Here, have some flowers. You've earned them! :love:

[gretchen2]

Points well taken, I needed a little refresher course. Thanks Daphne.

[ReineD]

What an AWESOME post and view in to the mind of a woman, a wife, a lover. I Think that rates right up there as one of the top two or three sweetest posts I've read and if it were up to me it would be a sticky so that it never gets buried.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and wishes. :-)

I echo Kim! This is one of the most awesome posts from an SO I've read here, both your posts #1 and #16

"I want romance. But I don't want him to be romantic unless his romantic behavior is genuine. If I give him the ABC's and he follows the instructions then all the warm fuzzy's from the romantic behavior dissolve."

Very well said!
:love:

[LisaM]

Daphne,

Your post hit me in the heart. I don't think i am guilty of everything that you mentioned nor am I guilty all of the time. But it puts things in a different light than I usually see them in.

I loved your comment to get me 'something that I'd want' because I recently gave my wife a wonderful Coach bag that I bought for myself--I quickly realized that she would get more use out of it so I told her i bought it for her knowing that she would absolutely love it--she did and she had to fight off my daughters to keep it.

I also loved your comment about just touching the small of your back---we all should realize how much a small touch means to our partners.

I loved your post and I hope to use a lot of what you said with my own partner. I want to thank you for your honesty and support.

[Daphne7]

Nice post :)

people have different tastes and preferences in clothing, and they can change too. You are no less of a woman for not wearing (for example) a frilly dress, just because you partner likes to. Would be boring if everyone dressed similarly. :hugs:

Remember too that a cd might feel the need to use all the little things possible to appear feminine, whereas you don't need to, you already are.

I think my statement reveals how insecure I am. Everyone has a different style/taste, mostly stemming from what looks/feels good to them-ie. colors, cuts, prints, etc.

The hit to my self-esteem isn't anything that he can do anything about. Its something I have to work on. The bad feeling he gets in the pit of his stomach when he looks in the mirror and thinks badly about himself for CDing is exactly the same feeling I get when I look in the mirror and don't see the reflection of his dream woman. --I want to be that woman for him--

With my GG friends I might admire a friend's womanly-ness and try to emulate the things I like about her.

So am I wrong when I assume that the choices my hubby makes about his CD wardrobe reflect the style of clothing he'd like to see me wear? Like his clothing choices are an indirect way of hinting to me what he'd like to see? I dress pretty darn frumpy around the house because that's what I'm comfortable in.

*** I've talked to him about this a little. We've covered the fact that we are different sizes and shapes, so different things look good on each of each of us. He looks great in a mini skirt in a way that I never will because men have spectacular upper thighs. And my butt will always have the advantage.

He says he knows that many clothing items he likes are not realistic for women to wear day-in and day-out while going about the practicalities of life. --Why would ANYONE want to grocery shop with 3'+ heels on?

It just seems like his choices indirectly imply that if I was more of a woman then I'd embrace a sexier and more sophisticated clothing style. I suppose the reality of it is that I just need to get over my hang up. When he's picking out clothing he's not thinking about how it would look on me- he's thinking about how it will look on him.

It's so confusing to be with a guy that has a girl side- but approaches the girl side like a dude. Argh

[TxKimberly]

. . . So am I wrong when I assume that the choices my hubby makes about his CD wardrobe reflect the style of clothing he'd like to see me wear? . . .
It's so confusing to be with a guy that has a girl side- but approaches the girl side like a dude. Argh

Oddly enough, it is not necessarily a safe bet that he wears things he wishes that you would wear. Now the really bad thing here is that I can't even tell you why this is true. For me, I might get a kick out of wearing 5 inch heels and a miniskirt, or a huge pink and silly princess gown, but I think my wife and would both agree she would look a bit silly in them. (She is also something of a Tom Boy). I really can't explain it as eloquently as you have shared your thoughts, so I'll just have to tell you that no, we don't necessarily wear things that we would want our SO's to wear. When we buy them, and when we wear them, it's not likely that some part of us is thinking "Gee, I wish my wife would wear something like this."



. . . It's so confusing to be with a guy that has a girl side- but approaches the girl side like a dude. Argh . . .

Thanks for that one - that is the best smile I've had today!

[Huntress]

Absolutely spot on. One of the best "in the groove" SO advices I have read here. No nanny state preaching. No wailing and gnashing of the teeth. No pitiful, woe is me, rant. Makes me want to take you to Paris and buy you diamonds. Oh wait, you're married. Damn.

De Oppresso Liber,
Huntress

[Wen4cd]

Do you often tell him he looks good when he's not dressed, and mean it?

As a crossdresser, the last thing I really like is for my wife to tell me I look good dressed (while I am dressed, that is.) I will often go shy, or withdraw, or whatever. As you say, the "warm fuzzies dissolve."

Anybody else, fine, but not my wife. She courted and married me undressed, and I have no wish to make her change her tastes if she doesn't want to. The outer guy part of me is a real as the inner feminine.

Now, if my wife tells me I look good when not dressed, I suddenly feel like I am dressed, if you get me, and blush "like a schoolgirl."

All guys, dressers or not, will have an inner 'feminine' personality. Jung modeled this, and I tend to agree from experience. My belief is that many cross-dressers became separated from this inner connection with emotion or empathy, due to one string of circumstance or another in childhood, and dressing is, consciously or not, a tool to reconnect with that lost (or difficult to reach) half. To claim back their souls by finding that part within themselves and seeing it as real...

(...Which is a hard trick, because it's SO easy to say 'my feminine side' and not really understand what it means, especially for a cross-dresser, and double especially because IMO, it has little or nothing to do with 'real' women, who are just as multifaceted, and don't necessarily do 'feminine' things in the same way the archetype does.)

We both know I'm not dressing like a 'real' woman, but expressing a spirit, an archetypal image that has much less to do with the reality of womanhood than it does with my unconscious perception of the feminine.

In that archetype, or spirit, lies the part of many a CDer's psyche that makes him able to do those romantic things on his own. There is the lost thing, the re-integration that will give him the confidence or the sensitivity to work on the marriage, among many other parts of life, to a fuller extent.

If your hubby is like I am, and probably a lot of CD'ers are, dressing is therapy. Some feel it's something they should do more than want or need to do.

Right now he's chasing after the image.

But one day, with luck and work and education, that image may to come alive and start talking to him.

Like a little guardian angel over his shoulder, she can teach him how to look you in the eye, feel your needs, read your mind, even when he's not dressed.

My advice, be it popular or not, would be to view 'her' as something that's going to eventually help "him" see you. If he wants to, that is (and he should, if he married you.)

That doesn't mean flattering her looks, but appreciating that she's real, and that she's merging with "him" to become a full, complete human being.

[sissystephanie]

There is definitely a communication issue, there always has been. When I found out he is a CD'er I thought that our communication would get better. That as a CDer he'd be able to understand me as a woman better, or at least listen to me more closely and take me seriously. I thought --good, some of the guy crap that drives me nuts will go away since I'm accepting and he can be who he truly is around me-- But it hasn't worked out that way yet.

When is the last time you and he had a sit down conversation about your feelings? You say you are accepting, but have you actually told him that in so many words? After all, as others have said, men usually are not mind readers! I'm sure you love him, but do you express your love openly? If so, how does he respond to that? Remember, we are only getting one side of the story! That is certainly not meant as a "slam" against you, just a statement of fact. As things are, if I met your husband I might want to punch him for not being more loving to you! You do deserve his total love for being accepting as you are!

I think you both might benefit from a session with a Gender Therapist!

I am not a trained therapist, but in the past 50 plus years I have counseled a numner of CD's and their wives. My late wife, and many other ladies, have told me that I am quite sensitive for a man! Maybe that is why I seem to understand problems like yours more easily than others might. In my 70 plus years on this earth, I have experienced many things, and learned from most of them. Once again, the Best of Luck to both of you, and please do keep in touch!

[Melissa Rose]

Daphne, thank you for writing such an insightful, thoughtful and caring message. It couldn't have been an easy thing to do. Based on the responses, you've touched and enlightened a number of people. Count me as one of them.



It's so confusing to be with a guy that has a girl side- but approaches the girl side like a dude.Daphe, you nicely summed up what I was going to say.


There are intuitive things I know that you never will. I've been a girl a lot longer than you. We won't see eye-to-eye on everything (no one does) but I am hard-wired as a girl....Your husband is hard-wired as a male, and the male and female mind are not wired the same (duh!). I'm making a generalization, but many men tend to be less in tune with the feelings and thoughts of others compared to most women. Heck, sometimes men can completely dense and clueless when it comes to others feelings and reading signs being broadcast. How many times has the phrase "I wish she would tell me what she wants instead of making me guess." been muttered?

I totally understand wanting acts of kindness and love to be unprompted, spontaneous and purely self generated. My experience has shown some men know what to do, but not how to do it. This is one reason vacuum cleaners and frying pans are given as birthday and anniversary presents. Your husband may need some gentle nudging and pointing in the right direction, but in a very broad manner. It would be great if both partners in a relationship were in complete alignment, but sometimes that does not happen. Loving and gentle guidance is needed sometimes. I've been told training men is like training cats - difficult, frustrating and slow, but possible with patience and treats. :)

I think you are completely right with your husband's self esteem when dressed being low or fragile. I feel that way at times too. He is feeling exposed and open, and that is scary for him. Any criticism whether it is constructive, kind or caring, can be taken the wrong way when he is feeling unsafe or venerable. He may not act like it at the time, but he knows it is done out of love and kindness. Perhaps offer to show him the next time he gets dressed a way to make up his eyes differently instead of saying or implying they could be better. Even if I thought my eyes were perfect, I would jump at the chance to learn another technique.

Again, thank you for sharing your thoughts and feelings. He seems like a great husband and you seem like a wonderful wife. Cherish and love each other and yourselves, and things will work themselves out.

[Daphne7]

Perhaps it is those small things that we as crossdressers are striving to experience. As men, we are expected to be the givers, not the receivers. And receiving such casual, yet sensuous gestures must be a wonderful and fulfilling experience. :love:

As he and I wade through the particulars of our relationship and how CDing fits into our life I secretly decided early on to make a conscious effort to show him the sensual side of being a woman. Some of the things I do to show him were things that had been done to me that I view as a treat. Other things I thought he'd view as a treat. I'm always on the look out to discover what "little gestures" I can make towards him.

These are the first couple things I thought of- and did/do: (not sure if this is too much info, sorry if admin's deem it be removed. Just thought others might like to hear these ideas and try them out if they haven't already.)
a. In bed, he on bottom, I press my hands into the sides of his body. Starting at the hips, ending part way up his ribs.
b. When standing and kissing. Place my hand on his back, fingers between his shoulder blades and palm + thumb on upper middle back. I think of the hero's in historical romance novels- the tension in my arm, the pressure of my hand on him.
c. In bed, he on bottom. I stand at bottom of bed and lean over his feet. Gently and with precise control of my whole body I run my hands over his feet, put a knee on the bed, hands going around the outside's above the ankle and sweep fingers to what i can reach of the backsides of his calves.
Both knees on bed, still in precise control of my body, my muscles tingle and I think of a seductive cat climbing up on the bed. Bring my hands around to the insides of his lower legs, flip hands over and let the backs of my hands run over the inside of his knees. Flip hands back to palms down and make sharp diagonal for outside of his quad, press harder as my hands slide up the sides. After that its all improv and I'll do whatever comes to mind to tantalize his inner thighs. (I can only imagine how erotic this feels to him since having clean shaven legs is important to him.)

Non-sensual things I like to give him:
1. Tell him to not make any plans one evening- I want to hang out. Then when the night comes I ask if he wants to dress and hang out at home together, is he in the mood to practice/experiment with makeup, go shopping or do something else he's been thinking about lately.
2. I like to stop in stores when struck by a whim and buy him a piece of clothing or makeup I think he'd like.
3. I'll pick out which panties I want him to wear occasionally.
4. I'll suggest he wear the nightie to bed that I pick out for him.

Given these and other gestures that I consciously and genuinely give him; I am frustrated that he apparently needs a technical writer to hand him a step-by-step guide in order for him to give me the romance that I so desperately desire.

[Andy66]

It's nice that you're helping some CDs understand women a little better.

There is no reason to compare yourself to other women or to your husband, Daphne. They are not your competition. You are the same unique, beautiful person no matter how anyone else looks. Their looks do not change your looks.

Communication is VERY important in a relationship. You can't sit around hoping he somehow reads your mind. Even if he does something because you ask, he is doing what you ask to try to make you happy because he WANTS to make you happy.

I suggest you tell your husband what you told us. Sounds like he might have some areas that he could work on too. Maybe couple's therapy is an option.

[Daphne7]

When is the last time you and he had a sit down conversation about your feelings? You say you are accepting, but have you actually told him that in so many words?
If so, how does he respond to that?

We don't plan our sit-down chats. They come up spontaneously when we hang out privately. One of us will usually experience something and then tell the other about the experience and we discuss the various aspects/angles of it. Some of the talks have a philosophical ring to them, some hone in on delicate specifics.

I have told I am accepting, he acknowledges that I am, he says I am and he says he's so lucky to have me.

If you understand what I'm implying this will probably sound terrible to some of you, but its the naked truth:
I want to be lucky to have him.

The problem for me is how get our relationship to that next level, a deeper more emotionally connected level, when he won't follow my lead.

[Valerie]

I was very moved by your posting. It has inspired me to try more to express my love. I am sure my SO could write something similar to what you wrote(you are not her?) For many of us, being brought up as males has blocked and repressed the capacity to show our emotions and the talent to be loving in small (and important) details. We are in a path, though, that may allow us to improve.

There is a possibility perhaps worthwhile exploring: I had a cat who brought me as presents dead birds. It took me some time not to snach them away from him and throw them into the garbage. Finally I understood that this was his way (definitely not mine) of expressing his love and learned to praise him. Are expectations (perhaps) blocking seeing that expressing love can be different for different persons?

Again, many thanks for your very helpful posting.

Valerie :love:

[Kathi Lake]

Daphne,

Oh my, do I feel for you. Once again, you are the woman many of us dream that our wives could be - accepting, willing to risk her comfort, even encouraging when you may not feel like it - and it seems that your efforts are falling on "deaf ears." I don't know why some men behave this way. Many of us try to be the partner that our wives deserve. Some guys, whether through upbringing or other means just don't "get it." That's not saying that they can't learn, but it can be a process.

I understand completely your point about telling them what to do. It's hard to appreciate spontaneous gesture of affection, if you just told him exactly how to be spontaneously affectionate. Yes, it is easier to listen to your SO tell you what to do and then do it. It takes effort to think about what she might like, and then do that thing. I do know from personal experience though, that it is very worth it. I love being spontaneous and surprising her. In our case though, our roles are kind of reverse. She's the major bread winner. She has a PhD. We have moved for her jobs. She is - literally and figuratively - on top. I tend the kids. I do most of the cooking and cleaning. Of the two of us, I am definitely the "girlier" of the two. I don't mind that role. I am very proud of my wife and her accomplishments. I try my best to satisfy her and keep her happy. I say all this wondering how your roles are. Is your SO one of those alpha-male, fast-paced types? Is it his "wiring" as a male or is it his learned responses that cause him to act this way? I'm curious.

Don't lose hope. Remember the good times in the relationship and look forward to the good times of the future. Sometimes "raising a man" is like a game of pinball. A little nudge here and a little bump there and you eventually get him where you want him. :)

Kathi

[Daphne7]

Is your SO one of those alpha-male, fast-paced types? Is it his "wiring" as a male or is it his learned responses that cause him to act this way? I'm curious.

I'm not entirely sure how to answer this, these types of things are very complicated and have many exceptions.

He has aspects of alpha-male style and beta-male style. I'm not sure if that's due to learning the USA status quo regarding gender roles; or if its due to the habits he needed to develop in order to protect himself while growing up.

Regardless of hard-wiring or learned behavior, he is who he is today because he's made the best decisions he could in the situations he has experienced thusfar in life.

That is why I want our relationship to work. He does what he thinks is right. He's a great guy. In many respects I know I am lucky to have him. The catch is that I want to feel lucky.

Its nearly impossible to put into words how something feels and manage to adequately convey all the nuances of that feeling. I feel we could have a really amazing thing together, but I feel that there needs to be a deeper connection between us in order to reach that amazing reality. And I don't want to settle for less than I feel we can have together.

I want to bring our relationship to a place where it will shine like he never imagined possible. But I need him to believe in me.

[swiss_susan]

Daphne,

Thanks for a great post. I am sure my SO's will want to thank you for reminding us of a few important aspects of our relationships.

Often in life it is the little things that make a difference.

[Leanne2]

Daphne,
Wow! I'm not sure what to say. Your posts are awesome; parts are like a romance novel. All of our SOs should send you thank you notes. I know that mine should. Leanne

[Kathi Lake]

That is why I want our relationship to work. He does what he thinks is right. He's a great guy. In many respects I know I am lucky to have him. The catch is that I want to feel lucky.

I want to bring our relationship to a place where it will shine like he never imagined possible. But I need him to believe in me.This post may sound a bit scattered. I'm dealing with feelings, rather than absolutes, but I want to help. I really do. :)

Once again, I do understand your feelings, I believe. I think you are feeling torn because you really want it to work and are ready to do whatever it takes to make it work, but you don't feel the same level of commitment from him. You don't want to feel bad about that - he's trying, kinda, after all - but you still do, and that makes you feel bad for feeling bad about that. It's not his fault after all. Right?

Every woman wants to feel loved and special and, while not put upon a pedestal (at least you don't strike me as that type), they want to be cherished. I understand your desire to feel this way, and to not have to tell him what makes you happy because if he then does that, did he do it out of obligation? Are you a shrew? a nag? Arrgh! It's times like these that I'm glad I'm not a woman. It is so much easier being a man.

Daphne, it sound like you are in this for the long-term. I would like to say that it will get better, but I don't know you both. Every person deserves to be with the one they should be. Never settle! If you feel that this is worth it (and it sounds like you do), then buckle in for the long haul. Recognize that you are going to try to undo a lifetime of learned and hard-wired behaviors. Conventional wisdom says that, on average, men are not the best communicators. Men are not the best at sharing their feelings. They are not the best at remembering the little things. Some may call these generalizations, but I say that there is usually a nugget of truth in any generalization. It sounds like this guy is going to take a bit of work. So far, it sounds like you know that and are willing to make the effort. Thank you for that. It is probably going to take everything from simple nudging to full-out direction. There may be times where you will feel that you are the only one doing the giving and the trying - and you may be right. Communicate early and often. Realize that our skulls are thick and that sometimes we're not that bright. :) Remember and cherish the times that he does something spontaneous. Reward the little victories and try to forget the little slights. In time, I'm sure it will be wonderful.

Please, please let us know.

Kathi

[sissystephanie]

Daphne, IMHO,there are very few woman like you in the world. I know because I was married to one! And I have a GG friend whom I told about my CD activities and she is totally accepting! Although I am a widower, I cannot marry her because she is already married! God Bless you for being the way you are!

You did say you want him to believe in you! That presumes that you believe in him, which, given what you have written, is pretty much a certainty. So then the major question is, does he believe in himself? That must come first. If he has no self-confidence he might actually be scared to express his feeling to you.

You made a reference to problems he had while growing up, but gave no details. It really is none of our business, but it surely is yours. It sounds like he does not have much self-confidence, and is almost afraid to express himself openly. That is not uncommon in a man, and probably even more so in some CD's. Was he a CD as a young man, or boy? Or do you know about that?

Generally speaking, if a person does not have much self-confidence they usually will not show much expression about anything. Simply because they are afraid of being belittled, or something like that. That is why I earlier in this thread reccomended a Gender Therapist. I truly think it would help both of you. I wish a long and happier marriage for you!:hugs:

[Satrana]

feels like you expect me to be more of a woman than I am, but I AM a woman. And it hurts.


Is not the answer here to learn to separate the concept of womanhood from femininity. Your experiences as a gg is your womanhood and it is not what CDs are after unless they are TS.
Femininity on the other hand is the traditional set of behaviors that make you look and feel special and attract attention and admiration from others. This is what CDs are trying to recreate.

You know that your hurt is nothing more than a blow to your ego. It is like a man feeling hurt because his wife knows more about fixing cars than he does. The answer here is to be big enough to let go with traditional gender conventions and instead be pleased and appreciate your partner's (unexpected) skills.

As regards your wish list of romantic moments, the problem there lies in male gender conditioning. No matter how much your partner CDs, he cannot jettison his own gender conditioning that he has learned during his manhood. Being romantic is never taught to males as a likable or pleasurable behavior. Rather it is more like a duty like giving a best man's speech at a wedding. It is essentially a one way effort - the man has to do all the work and do things which often makes him feel uncomfortable in order to win over the girl while they are dating. Once the relationship is secured then the need for romance no longer exists. The truth is men do need to be teached to include romance as a routine part of the ongoing relationship because that is not how romance is understood in male culture.

How often do you do the things you list to your husband? If you did these things to him then for sure he would reply in kind.

There is aspect here which I do not know if you have thought about. If your man wants to feel feminine then that means that you will have to play the male role for his benefit. That does not mean you have to CD yourself or adapt masculine traits, but rather you need to learn how to romance and treat your husband sweetly as if he were a girl.

If you want romance to be an everyday event then you need to lead the way and teach him what it feels like to be treated so specially instead of waiting indefinitely for your husband to magically undertake this himself.

[claire_hollinger]

I dont mean to belittle anything you said, I agree with them completely, im just speaking for myself. I know that IO myself sometimes find myself complacent, becoming comfortable enough that i dont really think to do those romantic things i know i should. I am, thankfully, very good at catching myself at it, and will go do something to show my wife that i love her...I dont know how far into your relationship with his cding (I say that in that context, because i think that coming to terms with it has stages), but if its still new, he may be doing what i find myself doing, which is go overboard with it, basking in the acceptance. Being suddenly allowed to dress is almost like getting a new toy, you want to play with it and explore it

[Lady JayDee]

Hi Daphne, I really identified with a lot of your post. Sometimes I feel like Im trying so hard to accept his new identity that its making me forget what my own identity is. But Im working on it!

The only thing I disagree with is the part where you say about him wearing stuff you dont want to wear. Im completely the opposite - I prefer him to wear stuff that I dont like because then his femme self has a completely different persona to me and different style to me - and that helps me accept her better.

I find it harder when he walks in wearing something I would wear, or underwear I would choose for myself because then I kinda feel like he is tredding on my toes if you know what i mean? Fashion has always been a HUGE deal for me. I love my style and have worked a long time at perfecting my look, so the times i have really freaked out is when she comes in essentially looking like me. I know that copying is supposed to be the biggest form of flattery but I find it hard to take it that way.

[joandher]

Hi Daphne after reading all of the posts, which is a great reminder, im sure that not only me but a lot of the girls on here forget our partners feelings ,and wants,its a sharp reminder that there are 2 people in the relationship and that each has there own needs, and are reliant on each outher in all aspects of life ,and as i see it the only way forward , is by talking,
from the way you tell it,it seems that he could be too wraped up in himself
and you feel as if you are being left out
I do hope that you can work things out together ,he is a very lucky person to have an SO that excepts his c/ding:love:
J-JAY

[JamieG]

Daphne, thank you for your post. My wife periodically asks me to be more spontaneous and romantic, and you have helped me to think of some things that I can do. I don't think these things come natural to most guys -- certainly they don't for me -- but I don't know why that is. We have to work at it a little bit. In my case, it is even harder because I come home after a long day at work and she's just had a long day dealing with a baby and a four-year old, and we are both simply exhausted. I do try to do the little things, like a touch here, a hug there, an genuine compliment when I notice her looking particularly good, etc. Still, I don't think its enough. For the first time in a year, we just took a trip for just the two of us (my parents watched the kids while we were away). It was great to be able to connect again as two adults. We are looking forward to having a little more one-on-one time as we feel more comfortable leaving our youngest with a baby-sitter. Sorry if I went a little off topic there...

[Kathi Lake]

I do try to do the little things, like a touch here, a hug there, an genuine compliment when I notice her looking particularly good, etc.Jamie, just a suggestion; Don't just compliment her when she's looking her best. Compliment her when she gets out of the shower (with or without a towel :)). Compliment her when she comes back from a run (my wife smells incredible!) and she's disheveled and hot and sweaty. Compliment her anytime, anywhere. If you only compliment her when she's looking her best, she will think that she is only attractive to you when she puts forth major effort - not something she can or wants to do every day. She needs to know that you think she is special just the way she is. That's what I've learned, anyway.

Kathi

[Margo Paulse]

Daphne:
Thanks for the insight into the GG psyche. I'm sure it has caused many of us to ask serious questions to the girl's reflection in the mirror. I wish we had the ability to offer some solace with your feelings. I truly believe us CD'ers may be the most sexist & possibly the selfish creatures on the planet. I will attempt to adopt your observations & apply to my relationship with my SO.

Hugs from Margo

[sandra-leigh]

Romance... I try, and spontaneously, but often I don't get appreciation for the effort.

My wife dislikes surprises. For example if I were to buy tickets to a show and try to surprise her by directing her there (she's the driver) and having her see what's there when we get there, then by the third direction change she'll already be irritated and by the sixth, she'll be ready to turn around and go home unless I tell her exactly where we are going and what will be there. If I were to try to get around that by ordering a taxi (or limo I suppose) and telling the destination ahead of time, my wife would probably refuse to get in unless I told her what was going on. And even if I tell her exactly where and what we are going to see, heaven help me if I'm off one street in remembering the obscure entrance to the parking garage and we have to circle around to the next block.

If I buy her cut flowers, anything except for one variety, she'll ask "Why did you buy those?" -- meaning "What is your not-yet-revealed motive / agenda in buying those?" If I buy her seasonal live flowers (e.g., Iris in the spring) to liven up the house and remind us that winter is ending and nicer days are coming, then she interprets it as me imposing on her to water yet another plant

Twirling her hair or something like that... "What are you doing that for?" or "Don't do that."

Years and years of me trying to be spontaneous and romantic, of trying to think of new ways, and if I didn't happen to guess the secret magic romance trick she was looking for right then, the response wasn't "It was a nice thought", the response was negative and off-putting, with no clues offered to the secret name of Rumplestilskin.

After enough of this, you stop trying. Everything is negative, the needle might be in the haystack but you aren't getting even a "warmer/colder"... safer to not do anything and just let the day coast, than to try something spontaneously romantic and upset her by not getting it just right.

[docrobbysherry]

Proof, of the difference between men and woman!:doh: Only a woman could have written this! And I mean that in a GOOD WAY!


There is definitely a communication issue, there always has been.
Since I couldn't get through to him verbally I tried the non-verbal hints and he doesn't pick up on that either. Its so frustrating!

I also thought all those things were part of the love package, which is why having to spell it out to him is something I don't want to do, because I shouldn't have to.

I want romance. But I don't want him to be romantic unless his romantic behavior is genuine.

If I tell him what to do, and he does it, then it feels like he's only doing it because I told him. And I don't want him to do it for that reason. I want him to do those things because he wants to- and if he wants to then he should be able to think up those little romantic things on his own.
[/I]

Thanks to u, Daphne, I remember some of the reasons I couldn't live with me ex!:doh:
I came to DREAD: her birthday, valentines, and Xmas! WhatEVER I got for her, it was ALWAYS the wrong thing! And she was mad because she felt I SHOULD KNOW WHAT SHE WANTED!:sad:
She ALSO felt it was UNROMANTIC to tell me what she wanted!
And romance? I was ALWAYS romantic when SHE wanted it! But, NOT the reverse!:brolleyes:

Ladies, and Daphne, here's some tips for u, if u haven't figured them out yet:

Guys USUALLY CAN'T read your mind! If you're waiting for a guy that can, you COULD have a LONG WAIT! If u want us to KNOW something, TELL US! U may have to do that several times before we GET IT! ( Daphne, r u listening?)

If u want us to be ROMANTIC, just kick start us! We'll usually respond! If we R romantic, and you're NOT responsive, it helps to tell us why not! Otherwise, we may tire of trying!:sad:

And, THIS is a BIG ONE! DON'T try to change us, if u love us! Because if u succeed, the love may be lost by BOTH of u!:Angry3:

Note: NONE of this has ANYTHING to do with CDing. However, CDing COULD fit into the same formula!:)

[Persephone]

Dear Daphne,

Thank you for your awesome posts! Your thoughts and honesty are fantastic and helpful.

Sorry that some of it is brought about by difficulties you experience. I guess we all have things we love about our relationships and things we long for. Life sometimes seems to be about the balance between the two.


It's so confusing to be with a guy that has a girl side- but approaches the girl side like a dude. Argh

Wow!

Huge Hugs, :love:
Persephone.

[linnea]

Interesting suggestions and insights. Thank you.

[Kara Connor]

Some great ideas Daphne, and a good reminder not to get too wrapped up in ourselves. I agree with the poster who said that romance doesn't seem to come easily to males, even CD males! It is actually hard for some of us even to think of "romantic things" other than the obvious and clichéd stuff like flowers or buying a gift. This is something I am going to try and think of more, and hopefully be more considerate to my wife.

[ReineD]

I may be wrong, but I think what Daphne's getting at is showing the same level of excitement about the relationship as in the beginning. The romance is in the GG feeling as if she is wanted, even pursued. It's not so much about buying things like flowers or gifts, although these are nice too; it's your eyes lighting up when you see us, the electricity you feel when you're near us, the tenderness in your hearts when you touch us. If you feel all these things it will shine through and you will not have to be told to show it. It just will, as it did in the beginning.

[Wen4cd]

I may be wrong, but I think what Daphne's getting at is showing the same level of excitement about the relationship as in the beginning. The romance is in the GG feeling as if she is wanted, even pursued. It's not so much about buying things like flowers or gifts, although these are nice too; it's your eyes lighting up when you see us, the electricity you feel when you're near us, the tenderness in your hearts when you touch us. If you feel all these things it will shine through and you will not have to be told to show it. It just will, as it did in the beginning.

It's interesting you say it that way. It's how it's been for my wife and I this year.

Just weird, without even thinking about it, or making a conscious attempt to 'get back to the beginning, we keep finding ourselves doing things and being shocked to find that we're re-livng our courtship as a married couple.

Last week we found ourselves dancing together to slow songs in the kitchen instead of the school gymnasium, we're sitting long nights talking like in college, we're giving each other sly glances in company, we're trying to impress each other. Even our love life is somehow 'like the begnning.'

It's like life beginning again at 35.

[HunkyDory]

Daphne

That was certainly good insight and perspective and a strong reminder to my obligations to my wife. So many times I get wrapped up in myself and I exclude my wife and forget we are partners. She is my best friend and deserves that respect and attention from me.

HD

[Jenniferpl]

Great post. You gave great insight. I have a supportive spouse but not to the level you are. I will have to rethink I how treat my wife. She has made some similar comments regarding how she wants to be touched and treated.

[vivianann]

To me there is nothing better than to make a GG feel special in the realtionship, yes we all should take Daphne's thread to heart and find out what your sweetheart likes and needs to make her feel she is the most important person in your life.

[Satrana]

I may be wrong, but I think what Daphne's getting at is showing the same level of excitement about the relationship as in the beginning.

I understand exactly what you are saying however I think that expectation of love is impossible to obtain. The excitement of new relationships comes from the adventure of exploring a new person and new possibilities. One you have been together for a while, that can no longer be the case. In effect you are chasing after an impossibility. It is like an adult trying to recapture the innocence of childhood.

I watched a TV show which interviewed women addicted to falling in love. They would date a man for a few months and as soon as the initial romantic excitement began to decline as the relationship matured the women would drop them so that they could begin the whole process of falling in love again.

As desirable as this feeling of excitement is, realistically a different form of romance needs to take place based upon familiarity and shared experiences. And I will make the same point again - if you want your man to be romantic then maybe you need to be romantic towards him first, show him how it is done, make him feel special and then he will better understand what you want in return.

At the end of the day this expectation is based upon a gender stereotype that it is a man's duty to romance the woman. How many women still think it is their duty to have a hot dinner waiting on the table when their man comes home from work?

[ReineD]

if you want your man to be romantic then maybe you need to be romantic towards him first, show him how it is done, make him feel special and then he will better understand what you want in return.

At the end of the day this expectation is based upon a gender stereotype that it is a man's duty to romance the woman. How many women still think it is their duty to have a hot dinner waiting on the table when their man comes home from work?

That's a very good point, Satrana! :) And I love to cook for her because I know that she appreciates it!

But in a CDing relationship, I think it is even more important for the CD partner to find ways to show that he thinks his wife is desirable as a woman. Otherwise the wife may feel she is not needed. Like Daphne, I would be reluctant to ask him. And Daphne does treat her husband the way she would like to be treated .. read her post #27.
:love:

[Veronica Nowakowski]

Thanks for sharing. I don't have an SO as of right now, but it will help me know what to do when I have one who knows.

[sandra-leigh]

I understand exactly what you are saying however I think that expectation of love is impossible to obtain. The excitement of new relationships comes from the adventure of exploring a new person and new possibilities. One you have been together for a while, that can no longer be the case. In effect you are chasing after an impossibility.

And without getting into a saga:

Some of us never had that romantic excitement in the first place, or due to circumstances had it for only a short period of time.

(Yeh, some of us can be pretty dense about what is right in front of us.)