GG Envy

[Leslie Langford]

Whenever I see newspaper columns or articles like this from the Saturday, August 2, 2009 edition of the Toronto Star, it makes me feel very envious and resentful:

http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/673154

Bad enough that GG's have far more fashion options than we CDers do, but do they really need to rub our noses in it continuously? :sad::thumbsdn:

It would be nice to see a follow up article entitled "When Boys Will Be Girls" written in the same vein and extolling the joys awaiting males who prefer to be fashion forward by adopting female styles and raiding their SO's closets to achieve those looks, but somehow, I'm not holding my breath...:doh:

[MaryAnn40c]

I have always been told I have more fashion sence as a female than a male. :D

[kellycan27]

Whenever I see newspaper columns or articles like this from the Saturday, August 2, 2009 edition of the Toronto Star, it makes me feel very envious and resentful:

http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/673154

Bad enough that GG's have far more fashion options than we CDers do, but do they really need to rub our noses in it continuously? :sad::thumbsdn:

It would be nice to see a follow up article entitled "When Boys Will Be Girls" written in the same vein and extolling the joys awaiting males who prefer to be fashion forward by adopting female styles and raiding their SO's closets to achieve those looks, but somehow, I'm not holding my breath...:doh:

Why resent them? You wear their clothes.. they wear yours. They might just happen to look better in them. How can a crossdresser... resent someone who crossdresses? (although they probably don't actually crossdress in order to look like men) And you have the same options.. Raid the SO's closet..wear her clothes. :hugs: Get out there and strut your stuff.!
Kelly

[ReineD]

It's just another marketing angle. At the same time, I'm sure there are articles touting the ultra-feminine look elsewhere. Women traditionally spend far more money on clothing than men do, so of course the fashion industry will pander to women while attempting to create a buzz. They want to appeal to all tastes while at the same time creating this season's several 'exclusive looks' for those women who have the resources to keep up with the runway styles. Have you noticed that each season there are different colors, different skirt lengths, entirely different styles, some of which take off and some that don't?

It is not the women who are rubbing it in your face, it is the fashion industry. For myself, having limited means, I feel frustrated that styles change season to season as much as they do. :sad:

[Satrana]

Envious that women buy men's clothes, not at all. They can have the whole lot!

Frustrated that "Women in men's clothing is sexy according to British Vogue" is not true in reverse. Yes but that does not stop me, I don't need other's validation to enjoy my own clothing selection. I no longer care what society thinks about CDing, it has no impact on how I feel about myself.

[Lidia_tv]

What frustrates me is that women wearing mens' clothes is socially acceptable, and the other way 'round is not. It really makes me mad sometimes.

[ReineD]

What frustrates me is that women wearing mens' clothes is socially acceptable, and the other way 'round is not. It really makes me mad sometimes.

I don't mean to be flippant, but the solution is to do what women did in the 60s and 70s. They just went out and wore pants and the fashion industry responded with dollar signs in its eyes. When such a large volume of females also wants to wear pants, there is very little society can do other than accept it. But, women wore pants because they were tailored for their bodies and they looked attractive. Excepting transmen, they do not want to buy their pants in men's stores nor do they want to express themselves as men.

I gather from threads I've read here that if skirts and dresses were designed specifically for men the majority of CDers would not want to wear them, especially if the majority of GMs did, since it wouldn't satisfy their desire to express femininity. There is no comparison between women wearing pants designed for women to men wearing dresses designed for women.

I bet if you asked the guys in the transmen section, they would tell you they've also suffered societal bias over presenting as men.

I agree it is frustrating, but the issue is not about men wanting to wear dresses. It is about men wanting to express femininity. And TGs will have to come out in droves for society to be able to begin accepting it. And still it will take time, if you compare the issue to general acceptance of homosexuality; it is much better now than it was in the 60s, but still there are large segments of our population that are staunchly homophobic.

[noname]

What bothers me is the lack of acceptance / fashion equality. Funny, I have yet to see the girlfriend line for men. This article and other media is saying to women, go ahead and dress like a man. Say, when was the last time a woman lost her job for wearing pants? I've seen plenty of GG's wearing obviously mens cargo shorts, and I've never seen anyone snicker, stare or sneer.

The truth: Women can be a flaming cross-dresser and no one will think a thing about it.

[Bev06 GG]

I bet if you asked the guys in the transmen section, they would tell you they've also suffered societal bias over presenting as men.

I agree it is frustrating, but the issue is not about men wanting to wear dresses. It is about men wanting to express femininity. And TGs will have to come out in droves for society to be able to begin accepting it. And still it will take time, if you compare the issue to general acceptance of homosexuality; it is much better now than it was in the 60s, but still there are large segments of our population that are staunchly homophobic.

Couldn't agree more with those sentiments Reine.
Bev

[MJ]

I don't mean to be flippant, but the solution is to do what women did in the 60s and 70s. They just went out and wore pants and the fashion industry responded with dollar signs in its eyes. When such a large volume of females also wants to wear pants, there is very little society can do other than accept it. .

simple problem solved everybody get out there put on your best and live your life. so there you go.

next problem please

[Lisa Golightly]

I wear 'boyfriend' jeans and have a couple of 'boyfriend' t-shirts... I don't have any problem at all with them... Kinda nice and comfy to be honest. :)

[TSchapes]

I don't mean to be flippant, but the solution is to do what women did in the 60s and 70s. They just went out and wore pants and the fashion industry responded with dollar signs in its eyes. When such a large volume of females also wants to wear pants, there is very little society can do other than accept it. But, women wore pants because they were tailored for their bodies and they looked attractive. Excepting transmen, they do not want to buy their pants in men's stores nor do they want to express themselves as men.

I gather from threads I've read here that if skirts and dresses were designed specifically for men the majority of CDers would not want to wear them, especially if the majority of GMs did, since it wouldn't satisfy their desire to express femininity. There is no comparison between women wearing pants designed for women to men wearing dresses designed for women.

I bet if you asked the guys in the transmen section, they would tell you they've also suffered societal bias over presenting as men.

I agree it is frustrating, but the issue is not about men wanting to wear dresses. It is about men wanting to express femininity. And TGs will have to come out in droves for society to be able to begin accepting it. And still it will take time, if you compare the issue to general acceptance of homosexuality; it is much better now than it was in the 60s, but still there are large segments of our population that are staunchly homophobic.

:iagree:

Love, Tracy

[Tora]

Like the issue expressed above. The newspaper has a different topic. Many of us would like to pass as a properly dressed woman, in classy dresses and skirts. My challenge is not with some trend seeking fashion writer or profit motive clothing supplier. The clothes are a large part, but the deportment, appearance and grace are the goal. Where is June Clever when I need her.
Is the First Lady look, really our goal?

[Lidia_tv]

it is much better now than it was in the 60s, but still there are large segments of our population that are staunchly homophobic.

It is better, I agree. If someone wants to express their feminine side they don't necessarily need to be gay. I am bisexual, and you just hit the hot spot. Most people - if not all - when seen in feminine clothes would immediately be labelled as gay. Gay in some parts of the world is still seroiusly frowned upon. In some it is barely just tolerated, and in some societies ppl accept it or are indifferent at worst. I happen to live in a society which is still way away from fully accepting it.
The problem with labeling ppl is that it is easy to put a label on someone, true or not, and damn hard to get rid of it.

[LeslieSD]

We can sit here and complain all day long that we are not accepted. But acceptance is earned, not given.

If you want to be accepted as men wearing dress, just go out wearing a dress. At the same time, do demonstrate that you are a respectful and competent man except that you are in a dress. This is what the women did to earn the acceptance on wearing pants. They just go out buy it and wear it.

So just do it. It does not help just whining.

[Lidia_tv]

Yep. Who pays the hospital bills afterwards?

[Elsa Larson]

One of my FAV outfits is an oversized man's shirt over jeans, capris or leggings. Or alone for wearing around the house.

Look for something about 3 sizes larger than your guy size. You should get a similar look to what your SO has when she wears your shirt.

If you and your SO happen to be the same size, you may have to fight her to get to wear the oversized shirt.

I wear an 18.5x35 men's shirt so I get at least a 21/22x37/38 men's shirt for the oversized look. These are very inexpensive at many off-price stores.

[ReineD]

If someone wants to express their feminine side they don't necessarily need to be gay ...
The problem with labeling ppl is that it is easy to put a label on someone, true or not, and damn hard to get rid of it.

Please do not misunderstand. I used the growing acceptance of homosexuality from the 60's until now as an analogy of what could be the future path for acceptance of being TG, if TGs begin to be as open about themselves as gays have been about their homosexuality. At the same time, I do recognize that being open comes at a price, as it did for the gay community, so everyone needs to make the decision for themselves.

I am certainly not suggesting that expressing a feminine side means that a TG is homosexual. We all know that gender expression is quite distinct from sexual preference. :hugs:

[NathalieX66]

Bad enough that GG's have far more fashion options than we CDers do, but do they really need to rub our noses in it continuously?


Wrong. Maybe the average guy, sure, but CD'ers have some pretty outrageous imaginations and will go great leghnths to put together some outfits. it's the reguular guys that should be jealous. CD'ers = the sky is the limit...thus this forum.

Let's back up for a moment.

While it has been customary for women to wear pants for the last 50 years, We men can now have pierced ears & grow long hair. OK, that's just one step. The media pays so much attention to Bono (long hair these days) and Jon Gosselin (...I don't watch the program, thankfully, which is why my sanity is still intact) .



Originally Posted by Lidia_tv
If someone wants to express their feminine side they don't necessarily need to be gay ...
The problem with labeling ppl is that it is easy to put a label on someone, true or not, and damn hard to get rid of it.

Please do not misunderstand. I used the growing acceptance of homosexuality from the 60's until now as an analogy of what could be the future path for acceptance of being TG, if TGs begin to be as open about themselves as gays have been about their homosexuality. At the same time, I do recognize that being open comes at a price, as it did for the gay community, so everyone needs to make the decision for themselves.
I'm going to admit, that from what I've seen from gay culture these days, it seems to fit less the sterotype of Some Like It Hot, and while there are drag queens abound, gay men don' t seem at all interested in the guy who takes fancy at women's underthings....must be those "bear" types controlling the scene, I don't know. Be gay if you are...I'm not. Thus the quandary I'm in.

[Mistybtm]

What frustrates me is that women wearing mens' clothes is socially acceptable, and the other way 'round is not. It really makes me mad sometimes.

I totaly agree with you it just isn't fair :Angry3:

[Ze]

I bet if you asked the guys in the transmen section, they would tell you they've also suffered societal bias over presenting as men.

Or better yet, I'll come right over to your section for even more convenience. Ask away, ladies.

And have I mentioned how much I love ya, Reine? :D :hugs:



The truth: Women can be a flaming cross-dresser and no one will think a thing about it.

Uh...no. They will.


What frustrates me is that women wearing mens' clothes is socially acceptable, and the other way 'round is not. It really makes me mad sometimes.

Depends to what degree of "wearing" we're talking about here; and where in the world we're talking.

Be careful not to generalize stuff like this.

[Tamara Croft]

The truth: Women can be a flaming cross-dresser and no one will think a thing about it.Well that's absolute rubbish, but even if it was true, who's fault is that? Y'all come on this board complaining and whinging like a bunch of 5 year old brats, instead of going out and wearing what the hell you like... oh.. woe is me, I can't wear a dress.. oh woe is me, women can wear trousers... boo fricking hoo, get the hell over it and do something about it, or stop whinging!! :Angry3:

[Ze]

Well hi, Mom! :wave: Shoulda known you'd be here soon enough...

[Tamara Croft]

Well hi, Mom! :wave: Shoulda known you'd be here soon enough...Hi Son :wave: did ya miss me lol... I bet you get sick of reading how gg's can wear what they like, or crossdress as men and get away with it... because I'm pretty sure ftm's have a tough time too...

[skirtsuit]

I was hoping this thread was about how women envy us CDs, not the other way around.

The best 'revenge' if you need it, is to simply look better in thier clothes than they do! They can have the pants, give me skirts & dresses!

All the Best,
SS / Ann

ps - there was a time when men wore the stockings....

[Tamara Croft]

The best 'revenge' if you need it, is to simply look better in thier clothes than they do! The best revenge? what are you? 5? grow up!

[kellycan27]

QUOTE=Tamara Croft;1818837]The best revenge? what are you? 5? grow up![/QUOTE]


:worship:

[skirtsuit]

Grow up?
Learn to read!

I don't need any revenge - I look great in a dress.

All the Best,
SS

[Andy66]

Okay, here's the other side of the coin, just for argument's sake... or I should say one of the many sides of the coin.
Women can be a flaming cross-dresser and no one will think a thing about it.
That may be true to some extent, in some circumstances.
Those of us who are really good at passing (like my buddy Ze for example) have problems with society similar to what MTF CDs experience.
But GGs who are masculine to any lesser degree (like me) can end up frustrated because our clothing is so well accepted that it's virtually impossible to express our masculine side. It's a lot easier for a male to express his female side, and even feel a little thrill and naughtiness doing it if he wants to. A little eyeliner or blouse will do it. Most women just can't do that. We would have to really go all out (it's all or nothing) to be acknowledged as masculine at all.
...But I don't act hateful to innocent GMs because of it.

[Leslie Langford]

Well that's absolute rubbish, but even if it was true, who's fault is that? Y'all come on this board complaining and whinging like a bunch of 5 year old brats, instead of going out and wearing what the hell you like... oh.. woe is me, I can't wear a dress.. oh woe is me, women can wear trousers... boo fricking hoo, get the hell over it and do something about it, or stop whinging!! :Angry3:

...and while I can't speak for the others here, I for one have gone out in public en femme over the last 2 years including dining out, shopping for women's clothes, shoes, lingerie, and make up, trying out clothes in women's fitting rooms, interacting with other female customers and SA's etc. and generally having a great time of it while being treated like "one of the girls".

That's great as far as it goes, and I'm loving every minute of it, but at the same time I feel as if this also forces me to be in disguise (as it were) to both express my feminine side and be accepted in this manner. In other words, I can't help but think that these GG's are so focused on the visual image of a woman that I present when I interact with them that they subconsciously treat me as some sort of honourary "girl".

This is quite different from them actually making the mental connection that, hey, there's really a guy underneath those femmy duds, which somehow I don't think they do. Probably the same type of mental NIMBY compartmentalization that will allow the average GG to be O.K. with the overall concept of M.T.F. cross-dressing as a means of gender expression for people like us, but when it hits closer to home and affects her son, husband, brother, or SO etc. - well, not so much then.

Like it or not, there is also still that ingrained cultural bias in the Western world that when a girl acts like a tomboy or favours male clothing, educational pursuits, or prefers more masculine sports, that is seen as a "good" thing as she is viewed as trying to emulate males i.e. to "better" herself. Sure, that's a bogus mind-set and not one I personally subscribe to, but it is what it is. A boy, however, who openly expresses his feminine side in the same manner and dresses in "girly" or androgynous clothing is still seen as being a "sissy" i.e. that's a "bad" thing, so not much societal support there. One only needs to read some of the postings here by our fellow CDer's who were accidentally discovered wearing girls' clothes by Mom or Dad while they were teens or pre-teens and how well that went over. I don't recall seeing too many complaints along those lines from young girls who prefer wearing boy's clothes because they are allegedly more comfortable and lower maintenance and being called to task for it as harshly.

And let's not forget that minor little detail commonly called "hate crimes", which the GLBT community is all too aware of, having been exposed to these far in excess of its actual numbers as compared with the general public. This alone acts as a very strong deterrent for a person who is openly and unashamedly male from wearing true women's clothing while presenting as a male.

Personally, I wouldn't want to meet a hairy, bearded, tattooed, and pierced 300 lb. biker with the requisite beer gut and who is O.D.ing on testosterone (and possibly liquour-fuelled as well) on a darkened street or in an alley while presenting as a male but wearing a frilly, lacy dress and 4' "f&%k me" pumps. Call me crazy, but, somehow I doubt that his first inclination would be to wish me a good evening seeing me dressed like this.

Somehow, I also don't think that a GG wearing a "boyfriend" jacket, a man's plaid shirt, dungarees, and construction boots etc. would elicit a similar response from said biker. More than likely, he'd actually offer her a ride on his "hog" instead.

No, this is not about whining and not having the b&lls to wear what we darn well please the way those courageous, pioneering pants-wearing GG's did before us. It is about the very real danger of flaunting society's "rules" and being beaten into a bloody pulp by some Neanderthal whose perceived masculinity we might appear be threatening simply by being ourselves.

[Andy66]

That's great as far as it goes, and I'm loving every minute of it, but at the same time I feel as if this also forces me to be in disguise (as it were) to both express my feminine side and be accepted in this manner. In other words, I can't help but think that these GG's are so focused on the visual image of a woman that I present when I interact with them that they subconsciously treat me as some sort of honourary "girl".

This is quite different from them actually making the mental connection that, hey, there's really a guy underneath those femmy duds, which somehow I don't think they do.
Nope, we're well aware that there's a GM body under those clothes. It's just generally accepted as the polite thing to do, to treat a person the way they appear to want to be treated: if you present as a woman we will treat you as a woman. If you present as a man we will treat you as a man. You lost me here, is that not what you want?

[kellycan27]

Nope, we're well aware that there's a GM body under those clothes. It's just generally accepted as the polite thing to do, to treat a person the way they appear to want to be treated: if you present as a woman we will treat you as a woman. If you present as a man we will treat you as a man. You lost me here, is that not what you want?

I think she's saying that she wants to wear the clothing, but doesn't like having to present as a woman to be accepted? Something like that. Just a guess really.

[Andy66]

I think she's saying that she wants to wear the clothing, but doesn't like having to present as a woman to be accepted? Something like that. Just a guess really.

That sounds like a really worthwhile goal for all of us to work toward, together, because we're all in the same boat.

[kellycan27]

That sounds like a really worthwhile goal for all of us to work toward, together, because we're all in the same boat.

Not me love. i am going in an entirely different direction than that. We are not all in the same boat. Kudos to him if that's what he wants.

[Andy66]

Not me love. i am going in an entirely different direction than that. We are not all in the same boat. Kudos to him if that's what he wants.

Aw, sorry to hear that, Kelly. You do what you gotta do.

I, on the other hand, have been fighting in my own little ways for LGBT rights for the past two decades. I believe it's important for us all to stand together because we're all we've got.

[kellycan27]

Aw, sorry to hear that, Kelly. You do what you gotta do.

I, on the other hand, have been fighting in my own little ways for LGBT rights for the past two decades. I believe it's important for us all to stand together because we're all we've got.

Awesome.. you go person!
Personally i am not waiting around til I am too old to enjoy my life for a group of people who are supposedly the same,but way too divided to mount an effective charge. Been there.. have the t-shirt. Ask around and you'll get your answer. Can't.. family,frinds,job. Don't want to, Don't care. I am happy being in the closet..heard em all. Can't expect acceptance if they can't accept themselves. I'll go the individual route.Props to you for your dedication. I'll wave at ya from the stands as you march past..if I am not too old to climb the steps.
TO THE OP, SORRY NOT TRYING TO HIJACK YOUR THREAD.:hugs:
Kelly

[noname]

Well that's absolute rubbish, but even if it was true, who's fault is that? Y'all come on this board complaining and whinging like a bunch of 5 year old brats, instead of going out and wearing what the hell you like... oh.. woe is me, I can't wear a dress.. oh woe is me, women can wear trousers... boo fricking hoo, get the hell over it and do something about it, or stop whinging!! :Angry3:

Not my fault, I'm out every singe day of my life. Didn't expect that did you? So yes, I am doing something about it. ( Does that mean I can whine now? )

[Lidia_tv]

Depends to what degree of "wearing" we're talking about here; and where in the world we're talking.

Be careful not to generalize stuff like this.

I am not attempting to generalize. I mentioned the diffrent levels of acceptance in different societies. Not every society is liberal. So, the answers I get: Just do it - sound more like generalization to me. ANY level of dressing where I live would be seen as something wrong. Not everyone lives in States, ppl. There are other countries as well with different levels of acceptance. I just mention my experience, which, excuse me, may be different then yours.

[PetiteDuality]

I don't think it's like that.

Take a look:

http://www.femalefirst.co.uk/board/men-wearing-womens-jeans-t56028.html

http://www.truejeans.com/blog/ask_julie_our_fit_specialist/julie_should_i_1.html

http://designer.denim.in.th/article.php/New-trend-of-men-wearing-womens-jeans

http://www.misterpoll.com/polls/130097 (look at the results)

However, I'd like to show more skin as a guy. Why can't I wear short shorts or show my belly as a guy without being labeled?

I'm quite sure that if I had sexier choices with male clothes the urges to dress wouldn't be as big as they are now.

[Lidia_tv]

Try doing it in Southeastern Europe.

[PetiteDuality]

Try doing it in Southeastern Europe.

Really?

[Rachel Morley]

Years ago I used to get somewhat frustrated when I would read news articles about female fashion where the latest trend would incorporate men's styles into women’s fashion. Like the "boyfriend fashion" we have now. It didn't seem fair because I thought I couldn't wear women' styles but, to be honest, I think they only reason it bothered me back then was because I wasn't dressing en femme enough. Now that I dress a lot more I don't care one way or the other if women's fashions integrate men’s styles as I get to wear anything and everything a woman might wear - and I can go out like it as well! :)

[TGMarla]

This is all so silly. It's just another of those whiny posts about the incongruity that exists between the genders and their clothing choices. Blah blah blah. Heard it all before. Many times.

Would you like it if men had the societal acceptance to wear dresses? Or does it go way deeper than that? Would you also like the societal acceptance to wear pretty bracelets and necklaces? Pantyhose? Heels? Long, pretty hair with curls in it? So you're saying that you want to look female? Would you also like society to accept guys sporting bras and breastforms?

When I crossdress, I do so because I like looking like a woman. I have no desire to look like a man in a dress or a skirt. I want others to perceive me as a female. And this is not because to do otherwise would invite finger-pointing and ridicule...we get enough of that already. If I only wanted to wear dresses around everywhere, I'd forgo the boobs and the hip pads.

So stop the whining. And if you want societal acceptance, start doing what Intertwined here is doing, and stop masquerading as a woman. Start running around as a man in a skirt, and do it proudly like there's nothing wrong with it. Otherwise, hang on to those breast forms and your hip pads, learn to tuck, and put some bucks into a nice wig.

[PetiteDuality]

When I crossdress, I do so because I like looking like a woman. I have no desire to look like a man in a dress or a skirt. I want others to perceive me as a female. And this is not because to do otherwise would invite finger-pointing and ridicule...we get enough of that already. If I only wanted to wear dresses around everywhere, I'd forgo the boobs and the hip pads.


Great. That's you. Not everybody is the same.

I'm not into the "guy in a dress" look either, but some people in this forum are.

I don't understand how can be demand for understanding when we criticize different styled within crossdressing. I've read a lot of BS like that against guys in dress, people that is into masking, the "I CD but I'm macho - not gay", CDs against TG, TGs against CDs, "your wife is so selfish and doesn't love you because she doesn't accept you", "you are so selfish and you don't love your wife because you are imposing your CD"... Too much judging in my opinion for a group that needs so much acceptance to go for.

Now, talking about myself: I think that the reason why I dress is because I used to be very insecure about my image when was much younger. I was a a short, chubby, weak and stutterer young boy but I looked great (back then - much less hair, much more petite, not muscular) as a woman. It made me feel much self confident back then.

Now I feel really good with my male image. I still enjoy my female image as well (although much less than before - I look too male in my opinion). I like to express myself as a sexy person.

Woman's clothes encourage sexyness. Man's clothes does not. I wish it would be different. Can't somebody just express a wishful thinking without being classified as a whiner?

[Lidia_tv]

I guess not

[Ze]

Hi Son :wave: did ya miss me lol...

Of course. :daydreaming:


I bet you get sick of reading how gg's can wear what they like, or crossdress as men and get away with it... because I'm pretty sure ftm's have a tough time too...

Not sick as much as hurt. As if my own pain and suffering either 1) automatically doesn't amount to the same pain and suffering as an MtF, or 2) my pain and suffering doesn't exist.



Those of us who are really good at passing (like my buddy Ze for example)

You're a danged liar, Anne, but I'm likin' ya more and more. ;)


Not my fault, I'm out every singe day of my life. Didn't expect that did you? So yes, I am doing something about it. ( Does that mean I can whine now? )

Congrats if you're out (no, I don't mean that sarcastically), but she was reacting to your comment on, basically, "my" troubles being less extensive than "yours." Feel free to whine, but just remember that I have the right to whine with equal or greater value (depending on the nature of your whine; directed toward CDing in general or how it's "easier" than mine). That's all we're getting at, m'dear.


I am not attempting to generalize.

Cool. :) Just had to check.


This is all so silly. It's just another of those whiny posts about the incongruity that exists between the genders and their clothing choices. Blah blah blah. Heard it all before. Many times.

Agreed, but it hit a nerve with me this time; i.e. the incongruity was being stated incorrectly. So, me being me, I had to say something. :devil:


start doing what Intertwined here is doing, and stop masquerading as a woman.

Intertwined is cool.



I'm not into the "guy in a dress" look either, but some people in this forum are.

Me! I go ga-ga for Scotsmen in kilts. Of course, I'll admit that's a whole different level of social acceptance...:D


Woman's clothes encourage sexyness. Man's clothes does not. I wish it would be different.

In general, I can agree with this. Women's clothes were designed simply for purposes of objectification; men's clothes were not.

But, I've come to realize that the States are going through a "sexy nerd" trend right now with younger men. Which is why I might subconsciously be gravitating toward that look. :D


Can't somebody just express a wishful thinking without being classified as a whiner?

There's nothing wrong with wishful thinking. But, there is something wrong with making awful generalizations about who has it "easier" when an individual hasn't gone through those experiences. If they haven't gone through the experience, they have no evidence to claim that said experience is easier.

I think some people in this thread are getting whining and wishful thinking confused. Wishful thinking is portrayed positively; whining is portrayed with anger and resentment. We'll never find equality in any sense if we continue those latter mindsets. See how quickly it created a generalized rift between MtFs, FtMs, and GFs in this thread alone?

[SirTrey]

Why the constant back and forth in thread after thread over who has it worse? Let's put it out there, some of you look like dudes in a dress and I have boobs and a beard (until I get My chest done in a few months)....We are ALL condemned and made to look like idiots by most of society, though we are actually (for the most part) highly intelligent, sane adults who either crossdress, are WITH crossdressers or trans people, or ARE transgendered.....That being said, we all face discrimination, we are ALL fighting a battle for acceptance, ie: we are pretty much ALL in the same boat....Cliche as it is, can't we all just get along??? :Angry3:

[Gayle]

For non CD's it's just a matter of fashion, male or female. For CD's it's dressing like 'our' ideal of a smart woman adjusted for age and not always then.

The rot started in the 1860's for smart male attire. For females a lot more recently. A woman in a skirt or dress in high heels in a supermarket now turns all heads. The odd thing is the high street shops are full to overflowing with feminine sexy clothing, I wear them, chuckle. It can't be just CD's who buy them, there ain't enough of us. Mind you, I'm probably responsible for a dollar on the share price of Walmart, hah!

Gayle

[pattyv]

QUOTE=Tamara Croft;1818837]The best revenge? what are you? 5? grow up!


:worship:[/QUOTE]

Kelly-you are naughty!!!Mmmmh-like your new avatar.

[Alana65]

Why the constant back and forth in thread after thread over who has it worse? Let's put it out there, some of you look like dudes in a dress and I have boobs and a beard (until I get My chest done in a few months)....We are ALL condemned and made to look like idiots by most of society, though we are actually (for the most part) highly intelligent, sane adults who either crossdress, are WITH crossdressers or trans people, or ARE transgendered.....That being said, we all face discrimination, we are ALL fighting a battle for acceptance, ie: we are pretty much ALL in the same boat....Cliche as it is, can't we all just get along??? :Angry3:

.........:yt:.......I totally agree, Trey. :thumbsup: :clap:

[tricia_uktv]

I've just bought a gorgeous green and gold dress. We can buy and wear what we want.

[kellycan27]

:worship:

Kelly-you are naughty!!!Mmmmh-like your new avatar.[/QUOTE]

Thank you Laura....... Moi' naughty??? :heehee:
Kelly

[Debutante]

It's just another marketing angle... It is not the women who are rubbing it in your face, it is the fashion industry. For myself, having limited means, I feel frustrated that styles change season to season as much as they do. :sad:

Well said, Reine...! We should be so much more aware like you are, as to who is trying to influence us and affect our perceptions...

[LeslieSD]

People are into crossdressing for different reasons, and have different preferences. Personally I am dress to look like a woman, and would not do guy-in-dress mode. But I do admire the courage and respect people who are doing that.

What I found less useful is to whine about the non-acceptance of the society. Talking and complaining is easy and won't help. The do-ers who do get out of the door are giants in action.

Image the women who fought for their right to wear pants a century ago. They faced a far more restrictive society, and a far less accepting public. Talking about the danger of being assulted, a woman back then should have more concern on that than a guy-in-dress now. Though these women pressed ahead and turned the society. They have my respect.

If the question is why the society can accept women wearing men's cloth, that is because they wanted it, fought for it, and got it. They deserve it.

Now go for what you want, and if you don't you deserve not having it.

[Tamara Croft]

Not my fault, I'm out every singe day of my life. Didn't expect that did you? So yes, I am doing something about it. ( Does that mean I can whine now? )No it doesn't mean you can whine about it, if you're out and about anyway, why did you whine? that makes no sense.

And to those of you who think the world is going to end because you can't wear what you like... well it's not that you can't, it's because you don't have the balls, think about people in other countries, women, who get beaten by the law for wearing trousers/pants..

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112878

[ReineD]

And have I mentioned how much I love ya, Reine? :D :hugs:

Awww, Ze, I love you too! :D :love:

[Leslie Langford]

No it doesn't mean you can whine about it, if you're out and about anyway, why did you whine? that makes no sense.

And to those of you who think the world is going to end because you can't wear what you like... well it's not that you can't, it's because you don't have the balls, think about people in other countries, women, who get beaten by the law for wearing trousers/pants..

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112878

..and those women who have submitted to domination and subjugation in countries where fundamentalist religious zealots rule deserve our fullest sympathy and support, as they are fighting a similar battle against prejudice, misogyny, and an unrelenting movement to "keep them in their place". Women in those countries should not fear getting 40 lashes for wearing pants or failing to wear a headscarf, just as we males with an affinity for women's clothing should not have to fear being the victim of a hate crime perpetrated by some homophobe. One type of violence may be institutionalized and the other more random and vigilante-like, but the end result to the victim will be the same.

It's all well and good to talk about b&lls or the lack thereof, but there is a significant difference between courage and recklessness, and having the equivalent of "He Had the Right of Way" inscribed on one's tombstone doesn't make the brave and righteous victim any less dead.

There are more intelligent ways to claim our rights to wear whatever type of clothing we wish besides an all-out confrontational approach, and each one of us here is proceeding in that direction at our own pace and in accordance with our own comfort levels. The vast number of CDers who are now out and about and claiming their rightful place in society is proof of that. And speaking for myself, I think that I am already showing plenty of b&lls going out cross-dressed and interacting with the general public without worrying about what others might think. I doubt that any of my macho jock friends would ever consider doing the same - they already get weak in the knees when their SO's ask them to pick up a box of tampons for them at the supermarket on the way home from work.

I really have a problem with the way the word "whining" ("whingeing ?") is being indiscriminately bandied about in this thread. Calling attention to an issue and talking about it does not necessarily put it into that category. Doing nothing about it, however, does, and nowhere has it been said here that we should simply accept the status quo when it comes to societal pressures that discourage males form wearing women's clothes while openly presenting as males. Boundaries are being pushed, it's just that women are already so far ahead of us on that score and have already staked out their territory. And yes, we have much to learn from them in that respect.

[Violetgray]

Hmm... soo much to say.

It's very simple. Many men wish they could wear clothing of "the other gender" and not have to face ridicule. They can't. Women can wear wear trousers and flanel and not face ridicule. It makes sense that the men feel like they're getting the raw end of the deal. By the way FtM cd's do NOT have the ridicule issue to the same extent the mtf's do. Why? Because:

A female in any ol' pair of jeans and any ol' shirt is fine.

A male in any ol' dress or any ol' skirt is NOT fine.

My female friend could select any of my boy clothes and put them on, and no one would give her a second glance. She'd have to have very masculine cues OTHER than the clothes, like a buzz cut or carry herself in a masculine way.

The reverse is not true. If I decided to slip into her dress, that would be all I need to be subjected to ridicule. I wouldn't need pigtails and lipstick.

There IS an imbalance, and it is perfectly reasonable to be displeased about it. Comments along the line of "tough sh-t" or "stop whining" are insensitive, and in no way constructive. The need to vent is a human thing, and "stop whining" has never been a constructive comment, never in the history of mankind.

And by the way, it took a WORLD WAR for women in pants to be made acceptable. It's not like all the women got together and said, "screw equal pay and positions of authority, dammit, we're wearing pants!" If it weren't for the depleted male industrial workforce as a result of a world-changing event western women might STILL only be wearing skirts. So until an international crisis depletes all our women and men NEED to fill those positions that must wear dresses, the argument is not quite valid.

At the heart of the matter here, is that the OP made a controversial, if understandable lament, and women (and some others) felt like they were being blamed for something.

This is not necessarily the Way Things Are, it's just what it looks like to me.

[Jamie001]

Women constantly adopt items from men's fashion including neckties, mens shoes, etc. The difference is that women just do it and don't act guilty and cower in the closet. Many crossdressers are ashamed about what they are wearing and choose to hide in the closet and act like they are doing something illegal. Until this attitude changes and they accept themselves, the situation will never get any better. Most women are individuals whereas most men are pack animals and don't want to seem different from the pack. Unfortunately they were taught this at a very early age. You have to accept yourself and get out there and be proud of who you are and what you are wearing. That is the only way to affect change.



Hmm... soo much to say.

It's very simple. Many men wish they could wear clothing of "the other gender" and not have to face ridicule. They can't. Women can wear wear trousers and flanel and not face ridicule. It makes sense that the men feel like they're getting the raw end of the deal. By the way FtM cd's do NOT have the ridicule issue to the same extent the mtf's do. Why? Because:

A female in any ol' pair of jeans and any ol' shirt is fine.

A male in any ol' dress or any ol' skirt is NOT fine.

My female friend could select any of my boy clothes and put them on, and no one would give her a second glance. She'd have to have very masculine cues OTHER than the clothes, like a buzz cut or carry herself in a masculine way.

The reverse is not true. If I decided to slip into her dress, that would be all I need to be subjected to ridicule. I wouldn't need pigtails and lipstick.

There IS an imbalance, and it is perfectly reasonable to be displeased about it. Comments along the line of "tough sh-t" or "stop whining" are insensitive, and in no way constructive. The need to vent is a human thing, and "stop whining" has never been a constructive comment, never in the history of mankind.

And by the way, it took a WORLD WAR for women in pants to be made acceptable. It's not like all the women got together and said, "screw equal pay and positions of authority, dammit, we're wearing pants!" If it weren't for the depleted male industrial workforce as a result of a world-changing event western women might STILL only be wearing skirts. So until an international crisis depletes all our women and men NEED to fill those positions that must wear dresses, the argument is not quite valid.

At the heart of the matter here, is that the OP made a controversial, if understandable lament, and women (and some others) felt like they were being blamed for something.

This is not necessarily the Way Things Are, it's just what it looks like to me.

[Violetgray]

Women constantly adopt items from men's fashion including neckties, mens shoes, etc. The difference is that women just do it and don't act guilty and cower in the closet.


You are right about this. But my point was that this is easier said than done, and that perhaps the only reason that this door was opened to women at all was the absolute necessity of the times.

[SirTrey]

By the way FtM cd's do NOT have the ridicule issue to the same extent the mtf's do.

There are very few FtM crossdressers...Most FtM's are transgendered/transsexuals and, for us, it's NOT a simple matter of putting on men's clothes.....Transitioning entails a lot more than that....then we have to get out there and deal with the same things that you do...bathroom issues, passing, etc. Try stuffing yourself into a skin-tight, hot binder and wearing it everywhere you go all summer....You think we can just put on men's clothes and no one will notice the boobs? And, if they can, are you really cross-dressing? Not all FtM's go on testosterone....and, admittedly, testosterone DOES do a lot to help an FtM pass....but, you think clothes are enough for those who do not go on it to pass? No, it takes binding, making a lot of changes, cutting their hair, etc., and once you do all of that, do you really think they don't get harrassed like you do when they ARE read? You have obviously not seen Boys Don't Cry....There are lots of good old boys out there who would just LOVE to kick the asses of "uppity chicks who dare to think they are men", trust Me on that. The point is, we ALL have problems....Why do we have to constantly debate whose are worse??? Geez. :Angry3:

[Violetgray]

There are very few FtM crossdressers...Most FtM's are transgendered/transsexuals and, for us, it's NOT a simple matter of putting on men's clothes.....Transitioning entails a lot more than that....then we have to get out there and deal with the same things that you do...bathroom issues, passing, etc. Try stuffing yourself into a skin-tight, hot binder and wearing it everywhere you go all summer....You think we can just put on men's clothes and no one will notice the boobs? And, if they can, are you really cross-dressing? Not all FtM's go on testosterone....and, admittedly, testosterone DOES do a lot to help an FtM pass....but, you think clothes are enough for those who do not go on it to pass? No, it takes binding, making a lot of changes, cutting their hair, etc., and once you do all of that, do you really think they don't get harrassed like you do when they ARE read? You have obviously not seen Boys Don't Cry....There are lots of good old boys out there who would just LOVE to kick the asses of "uppity chicks who dare to think they are men", trust Me on that. The point is, we ALL have problems....Why do we have to constantly debate whose are worse??? Geez. :Angry3:

You kind of prove my point here. A physical woman who is transitioning to be a physical man would like to be excepted as such, and is that is his right. But I think that you would agree that this isn't the same as a woman who casually wear men's clothing. But go back to the original post. It was about being able to casually wear the clothing of the opposite gender. That's what the "envy" is about.

And one thing that you are right about is the "Who has it worse" competition. I tried my best to avoid that (FAIL) but, it seemed to me as though "Look what the ftm's have to put up with" was being used to invalidate the feelings of mtf's who felt this way, and I was simply pointing out that the comparison (which has not much to do with ftm or mtf ts's at all when you think about it) is not really balanced.

[SirTrey]

This only turns into a debate when FtM's are brought into it...and it was several times in the thread...A GG who wears men's clothes is not an FtM....They are two completely different things....That was My only point....One thing we can definitely agree on, cd or trans of either gender, it isn't easy, that's for sure.

[TGMarla]

There IS an imbalance, and it is perfectly reasonable to be displeased about it. Comments along the line of "tough sh-t" or "stop whining" are insensitive, and in no way constructive. The need to vent is a human thing, and "stop whining" has never been a constructive comment, never in the history of mankind.

That's a very good point. So I'll back off my earlier comments a bit. Not completely, but I accept your point here.

[Alice Green]

I wish it was fully ok for a guy to wear women's cloths out in public without trying to pass. I know I can't pass, but would it be so wrong if I wanted to wear a dress.

[SirTrey]

I wish it was fully ok for a guy to wear women's cloths out in public without trying to pass. I know I can't pass, but would it be so wrong if I wanted to wear a dress.

I wish it was, too....and I believe that it eventually will be....hopefully sooner, not later....that's one of the things we are all fighting so hard to achieve....cd, trans, whatever and whoever you are....it's your right to BE that...and nobody has the right to tell you how to be or what to wear.

[ReineD]

There IS an imbalance, and it is perfectly reasonable to be displeased about it. Comments along the line of "tough sh-t" or "stop whining" are insensitive, and in no way constructive. The need to vent is a human thing, and "stop whining" has never been a constructive comment, never in the history of mankind.

The world is full of imbalances and injustices. Male superiority is one of them. It is what it is. A woman could, and I expect many do, complain about this. Or, she could choose to be proactive and do her bit to advocate for women's equality. And then post about that somewhere, alongside her feelings of frustration if she needs to.

Some people look at the glass half empty. It is their prerogative, but it doesn't solve anything. In fact, it can even incite others to stay focused on the problem.



At the heart of the matter here, is that the OP made a controversial, if understandable lament, and women (and some others) felt like they were being blamed for something.


Yes, this forum is a good place to vent feelings of envy and frustration. Everyone has days when they feel discouraged. But it is hard for women not to feel blamed after reading comments like this one:


Bad enough that GG's have far more fashion options than we CDers do, but do they really need to rub our noses in it continuously? :sad::thumbsdn:

[Leslie Langford]

Hmm... soo much to say.

It's very simple. Many men wish they could wear clothing of "the other gender" and not have to face ridicule. They can't. Women can wear wear trousers and flanel and not face ridicule. It makes sense that the men feel like they're getting the raw end of the deal. By the way FtM cd's do NOT have the ridicule issue to the same extent the mtf's do. Why? Because:

A female in any ol' pair of jeans and any ol' shirt is fine.

A male in any ol' dress or any ol' skirt is NOT fine.

My female friend could select any of my boy clothes and put them on, and no one would give her a second glance. She'd have to have very masculine cues OTHER than the clothes, like a buzz cut or carry herself in a masculine way.

The reverse is not true. If I decided to slip into her dress, that would be all I need to be subjected to ridicule. I wouldn't need pigtails and lipstick.

There IS an imbalance, and it is perfectly reasonable to be displeased about it. Comments along the line of "tough sh-t" or "stop whining" are insensitive, and in no way constructive. The need to vent is a human thing, and "stop whining" has never been a constructive comment, never in the history of mankind.

And by the way, it took a WORLD WAR for women in pants to be made acceptable. It's not like all the women got together and said, "screw equal pay and positions of authority, dammit, we're wearing pants!" If it weren't for the depleted male industrial workforce as a result of a world-changing event western women might STILL only be wearing skirts. So until an international crisis depletes all our women and men NEED to fill those positions that must wear dresses, the argument is not quite valid.

At the heart of the matter here, is that the OP made a controversial, if understandable lament, and women (and some others) felt like they were being blamed for something.

This is not necessarily the Way Things Are, it's just what it looks like to me.

...you seem to be among the few who actually "got" what I was trying say in the first place in my original post.

The irony in all of this, of course, is that the essence of this discussion might become academic anyway in a few short generations. New evidence is being brought forth every day that the males of most species are becoming endangered and at risk of becoming extinct altogether.

There are strong indications that all of the pollution in our environment and the tens of thousands of synthetic chemicals which have been introduced into our world over the last 50 - 60 years with little consideration for the long term effects (think DDT, Dioxin, and Agent Orange, among others) are particularly damaging to males. Birth rates of males vs. females have been dropping at an alarming rate in many countries, and in many cases genital development to full maturity is being stunted. The "Y" chromosome which defines "maleness" is also under siege, and carries far fewer genes than it used to - to the point of soon becoming redundant. Even sperm cells will no longer need to come from males in the near future - they will soon be replicated in laboratories, what with all the advances in stem cell research these days.

So eventually, we will all be females anyway, and what used to be considered male clothing will become unisex in the true meaning of the word.

Will that then relegate "traditional" female clothing such as skirts, dresses, pantyhose, and high heels to a historical curiosity, only to be worn by role-playing actors seeking to emulate the culture of a bygone era, much like Renaissance fairs or Civil War re-enactments :hmph::eek:?

[kellycan27]

Why don't you guys band together, dawn your skirts,dresses and 5o'clock shadows and make a stand? safety in numbers and all that? I f you feel so strongly.... take a stand. You want to see things change but none of you seem willing to make change. Everyone wants to be accepted, but nobody wants to step up to the plate. Maybe that is why people consider it whining.
Each group within our group has to make some kind of statement whether they be TS,cross dressers,F2M or what have you. Not everyone will accept everyone else..... fact of life. So you can let fear rule how you live yours and you can piss and moan until the cows come home, but to what end?
IMHO opinion comparing and complaining about what gg's get away with is petty. next thing you'll be complaining about is the fact that they have bigger breasts and that it just isn't fair. A lot of us who made a stand were just as scared as you are, but we did it anyway. We all have our demons.

[ReineD]

Will that then relegate "traditional" female clothing such as skirts, dresses, pantyhose, and high heels to a historical curiosity, only to be worn by role-playing actors seeking to emulate the culture of a bygone era, much like Renaissance fairs or Civil War re-enactments :hmph::eek:?

Yes, I think current male and female clothing will be relegated to the historical closet. This happens with every generation. But with the advent of a unisex society, I expect we'll see an entirely new fashion style, one that is a complete departure from anything remotely connected to gender styles as we know them now, and made with nanomaterials engineered to continuously change along with our bodies as we age. This will eliminate the need to replenish outfits every season. I expect the new outfits will fit like a second skin, making it seem as if we have nothing on, and they will also be engineered to be self cleaning. I imagine that this fabric will have the ability to take on one of millions of colours and patterns that have been programmed into it, such that we will be able to change our look on a whim. No. Better yet, the nanofabric will monitor our brain activity somehow and it will continuously change it's surface appearance based on our changing moods and physiological well-being. And we'll never have to take our second skins off, since they will also be sensitive to climate changes and they will always keep our bodies at an ideal temperature. :D

(Written because it was fun to imagine, not out of malice or sarcasm) :hugs:

[Deb The Brunette]

Why don't you guys band together, dawn your skirts,dresses and 5'oclock shadows and make a stand? saftey in numbers and all that? I f you feel so stongly.... take a stand. You want to see things change but none of you seem willing to make change. Everyone wants to be accepted, but nobody wants to step up to the plate. Maybe that is why people consider it whinning.
Each group within our group has to make some kind of statement wether they be TS,crossdressers,F2M or what have you. Not everyone will accept everyone else..... fact of life. So you can let fear rule how you live yours and you can piss and moan until the cows come home, but to what end?
IMHO opinion comparing and complaining about what gg's get away with is petty. next thing you'll be complaining about is the fact that they have bigger breasts and that it just isn't fair. A lot of us who made a stand were just as scared as you are, but we did it anyway. We all have our demons.


:iagree: Go girl




:ukflag:



.


.

[Violetgray]

Why don't you guys band together, dawn your skirts,dresses and 5o'clock shadows and make a stand? safety in numbers and all that? I f you feel so strongly.... take a stand. You want to see things change but none of you seem willing to make change.
Everyone wants to be accepted, but nobody wants to step up to the plate. Maybe that is why people consider it whining.
Each group within our group has to make some kind of statement whether they be TS,cross dressers,F2M or what have you. Not everyone will accept everyone else..... fact of life. So you can let fear rule how you live yours and you can piss and moan until the cows come home, but to what end?

You make assumptions here. Do you know whether or not this person or that is trying to do their part in some way? More importantly, do you know what it means for each person? For some, their jobs, their marriages, their lives as they know it are at stake. I agree that progress isn't going to make itself, but it's often more complicated than that, and I can't blame some people for feeling helpless.

The general idea I get from this post is that "If you're not some sort of activist then you have no right to feel this way." This is backwards. You have to feel like things aren't fair BEFORE you can do anything about it.


IMHO opinion comparing and complaining about what gg's get away with is petty. next thing you'll be complaining about is the fact that they have bigger breasts and that it just isn't fair. A lot of us who made a stand were just as scared as you are, but we did it anyway. We all have our demons.

There's a BIG difference between something you can change, like the clothes you wear, and something that grows attached to you, like boobs. Making the decision to wear a dress is VERY different than making the decision to have boobs. Also, who are the "A lot of us who made a stand?" Wouldn't this contradict your "But no one wants to step up to the plate" sentence earlier?

[Leslie Langford]

Yes, I think current male and female clothing will be relegated to the historical closet. This happens with every generation. But with the advent of a unisex society, I expect we'll see an entirely new fashion style, one that is a complete departure from anything remotely connected to gender styles as we know them now, and made with nanomaterials engineered to continuously change along with our bodies as we age. This will eliminate the need to replenish outfits every season. I expect the new outfits will fit like a second skin, making it seem as if we have nothing on, and they will also be engineered to be self cleaning. I imagine that this fabric will have the ability to take on one of millions of colours and patterns that have been programmed into it, such that we will be able to change our look on a whim. No. Better yet, the nanofabric will monitor our brain activity somehow and it will continuously change it's surface appearance based on our changing moods and physiological well-being. And we'll never have to take our second skins off, since they will also be sensitive to climate changes and they will always keep our bodies at an ideal temperature. :D

(Written because it was fun to imagine, not out of malice or sarcasm) :hugs:

...those nanomaterial second skin suits sound pretty awesome, but somehow I can't imagine that wearing one of them will come even remotely close to the wonderful feel of silky, lacy panties against my tush, the way sheer and gauzy pantyhose feel against my freshly shaved legs, or even the delightful sensation of wearing light, airy, and filmy camisoles.

If we are to fully go unisex in that Brave New World of yours, please, please, please don't let it include boxers, briefs, neckties or shirts with starched, stiff collars :hugs::D.

[Ze]

If we are to fully go unisex in that Brave New World of yours, please, please, please don't let it include boxers, briefs, neckties or shirts with starched, stiff collars :hugs::D.

Says you. :tongueout

[SirTrey]

If we are to fully go unisex in that Brave New World of yours, please, please, please don't let it include boxers, briefs, neckties or shirts with starched, stiff collars .

If we are going strictly for comfort here, we will also need to eliminate tight corsets and bustiers....high heels (especially spiked heels).....nylons, tights (way too hot, generally not comfortable, rip easily).....hmmm......girdles, well, that's a given....shorts and short skirts (at least in summer, makes your legs stick to the chair).....Hey, what's uncomfortable about boxers??? I think they are the most comfortable thing, ever.....guess it depends on what you consider comfortable.....:D

<<Added to list>> Push up bras and any type of thong (or any article of clothing that rides up the crack). :eek:

[Alana65]

If we are going strictly for comfort here, we will also need to eliminate tight corsets and bustiers....high heels (especially spiked heels).....nylons, tights (way too hot, generally not comfortable, rip easily).....hmmm......girdles, well, that's a given....shorts and short skirts (at least in summer, makes your legs stick to the chair).....Hey, what's uncomfortable about boxers??? I think they are the most comfortable thing, ever.....guess it depends on what you consider comfortable.....:D

<<Added to list>> Push up bras and any type of thong (or any article of clothing that rides up the crack). :eek:

Now you've gone too far, Trey. :spank: :D :heehee:

[SirTrey]

Alana....you threaten to take a man's boxers, it's hard to tell what he will do....No plans here of going commando......rofl :devil:

[Ze]

Alana....you threaten to take a man's boxers, it's hard to tell what he will do....No plans here of going commando......rofl :devil:

:lol:

And yes, Pops, boxers are very comfy!

[Alana65]

Alana....you threaten to take a man's boxers, it's hard to tell what he will do....No plans here of going commando......rofl :devil:

Why not......you stud. :D :battingeyelashes:

And Ze........boxer's comfy ? ewwww (for me).........but I bet you look great in them. :o :hugs:

[Leslie Langford]

If we are going strictly for comfort here, we will also need to eliminate tight corsets and bustiers....high heels (especially spiked heels).....nylons, tights (way too hot, generally not comfortable, rip easily).....hmmm......girdles, well, that's a given....shorts and short skirts (at least in summer, makes your legs stick to the chair).....Hey, what's uncomfortable about boxers??? I think they are the most comfortable thing, ever.....guess it depends on what you consider comfortable.....:D

<<Added to list>> Push up bras and any type of thong (or any article of clothing that rides up the crack). :eek:

...think of crossdressers as being like those struggling artists who suffer for their art.

As they say, "No pain, No gain" :D:tongueout.

[Ze]

...think of crossdressers as being like those struggling artists who suffer for their art.

As they say, "No pain, No gain" :D:tongueout.

Oooooohhh, I get it now! So MtF CDers are really just masochists, right?

*runs* :D

[Tamara Croft]

<<Added to list>> Push up bras and any type of thong (or any article of clothing that rides up the crack). :eek:I was going to say dental floss... although that's not clothing... Sharon said my thongs were like dental floss :cry: but they keep my butt warm!!! And crack? seriously? can't you tell you're a man.... :slap: and in front of the kids :eek: TREY!!!

[Leslie Langford]

Oooooohhh, I get it now! So MtF CDers are really just masochists, right?

*runs* :D

...and we're all in this together, you impertinent little whipper-snapper :tongueout - just from opposite ends of the spectrum.

Like we actually chose our respective lifestyles/gender orientations just because life wasn't complicated enough as it is:eek:!!!

[kellycan27]

You make assumptions here. Do you know whether or not this person or that is trying to do their part in some way? More importantly, do you know what it means for each person? For some, their jobs, their marriages, their lives as they know it are at stake. I agree that progress isn't going to make itself, but it's often more complicated than that, and I can't blame some people for feeling helpless.[QOUTE]

The only assumption that I am making is these people who are complaining and saying "can't" ....aren't. As I mentioned before.. we all have our personal demons. What I am saying is that they do have a choice..whether they choose to act on it or not, for whatever reason is up to them. No .it may not always be prudent to do so... but the choice is there.


[QOUTE]The general idea I get from this post is that "If you're not some sort of activist then you have no right to feel this way." This is backwards. You have to feel like things aren't fair BEFORE you can do anything about it.

Not at all. I am saying that if you aren't willing to try and change something,what do you actually hope to accomplish? Somebody else should do it? Someone else should make the sacrifice on my behalf? I am by no means an activist, I have said many times that I believe individual effort is what it is going to take to make change. For the same reasons that you yourself stated earlier. Fear of losing jobs,family,friends, society, self loathing, not being able to accept themselves,division of groups within the group. Transsexual, cross dressers,gay,bi, F2M. Too much in fighting to mount a united front. I don't want to be associated with being gay. I man man, he feels like he's a woman.. I don't want society to lump me together with.. those people.I don't want to, I don't care, I am happy with the way things are. It's my thing and I don't want to share it. What is fair? Who ever said that life is fair? Is it fair that children word wide starve to death? is it fair that people lose their life saving through scam artists? Is it fair that people lose their loved ones to violence or illness.. It's just a fact of life.





There's a BIG difference between something you can change, like the clothes you wear, and something that grows attached to you, like boobs. Making the decision to wear a dress is VERY different than making the decision to have boobs. Also, who are the "A lot of us who made a stand?" Wouldn't this contradict your "But no one wants to step up to the plate" sentence earlier?

The a lot of us who have made a stand are the ones who are out there living the way that they want to live. the ones who are not afraid to venture out dressed as they see fit, the ones who ignore the rude remarks and jokes. The ones who who don't fold to the pressure of so called society. Read the threads... I went out. I did it. I travel here, I travel there. I shop,get my hair and nails done. Go to the mall, go to restaurants, bars.
When I say that "no one is willing to step up to the plate" I am reffering to those who complain, but don't do anything to change things. it's not fair, but don't count on me to do anything about it.
My reference with regards to "boobs" was an attempt at sarcasim...it was obviouly lost on you, as you took me quite literally. The point that I was trying to make is that ... I believe that that sometimes people take things a bit too far. IMHO, after reading post after post in regards to fear and unacceptance I truly believe that even if the so called social taboos no longer existed... a lot of these people would find other excuses as to why they can or cannot do this or that. I think that sometimes "society" is used a crutch. it's not perfect, but things are changing. again, look a through the posts on coming out.. How many success stories are ther compared to failures? Doesn't that tell us something? How many closeted ones cite fear of society as opposed to the ones who make that leap of faith? Doesn't it make you wonder? I won't venture out because "society" doesn't accept me.
I know that there are exceptions so you need not bring up your town of 10 people etc. Suffice to say that yes there are exceptions.

[Ze]

...and we're all in this together, you impertinent little whipper-snapper :tongueout - just from opposite ends of the spectrum.

Got it. You all are masochists and we're sadists. ;)

Or at least Trey is. :shush:

[Leslie Langford]

...I came across this article in today's Toronto Star which is in the same vein as the original one I flagged when I started this thread.

http://www.thestar.com/living/fashion/article/680050

Gurls - run, don't walk, to the nearest shoe store and grab all those stilettos and girly shoes off the shelves before they run out and are replaced by menswear style brogues etc., which appears to be the coming trend.

Yuck! No, make that double yuck! What's a self-respecting crossdresser supposed to make of all this :sad::eek::thumbsdn:?

[Gerard]

What frustrates me is that women wearing mens' clothes is socially acceptable, and the other way 'round is not. It really makes me mad sometimes.

Yeah. Exactly what I thought.

[suchacutie]

Now that the manufacturers of women's jeans understand that men are buying these jeans in ever larger numbers, I'm sure someone is getting the point that there is a profit possibility here, and there is no need to be radical about it.

A slow evolutionary change can bring about a massive change in what is "chic" or "in" or even "acceptable" for the well-dressed male to wear! A few years ago white shirts were the only acceptable formal dress. Today I don't own a white shirt (except tux shirts)! Purple and Pink are totally acceptable. More than that, I always get terrific compliments when I wear those colored shirts (from women).

So, all you influential folks...get out there and make it clear to clothing designers and manufacturers that they are missing a massive profit potential but not slowly making a slowly and slightly ever-more feminine set of male-oriented clothes available! I lost 35 pounds a few years ago an when I bought new jeans my wife thought they looked terrible, so I now by size 8 low-rise jeans and they fit terrific (size 10 if they are not low-rise!).

Let's get out there and promote the greed and profit factor, and I'm sure that inequity will disappear in 20 years!

:)

tina

[Gerard]

I don't mean to be flippant, but the solution is to do what women did in the 60s and 70s. They just went out and wore pants and the fashion industry responded with dollar signs in its eyes. When such a large volume of females also wants to wear pants, there is very little society can do other than accept it. But, women wore pants because they were tailored for their bodies and they looked attractive. Excepting transmen, they do not want to buy their pants in men's stores nor do they want to express themselves as men.

I gather from threads I've read here that if skirts and dresses were designed specifically for men the majority of CDers would not want to wear them, especially if the majority of GMs did, since it wouldn't satisfy their desire to express femininity. There is no comparison between women wearing pants designed for women to men wearing dresses designed for women.

I bet if you asked the guys in the transmen section, they would tell you they've also suffered societal bias over presenting as men.

I agree it is frustrating, but the issue is not about men wanting to wear dresses. It is about men wanting to express femininity. And TGs will have to come out in droves for society to be able to begin accepting it. And still it will take time, if you compare the issue to general acceptance of homosexuality; it is much better now than it was in the 60s, but still there are large segments of our population that are staunchly homophobic.

How I have come to understand myself, is that I actually would be happier in a society where there were dresses designed for men and it was acceptable to wear them. I'd like to extend that to the fabrics, colours and patterns, lace and silk and such, soft and bright colours, frills.
Since understanding myself better, I now understand why I pick the male clothes I wear and a lot of what me attracts to feminine clothes are choices that just are not available in men's wear in fabrics and colours and patterns.
Besides that wearing a skirt or dress just is a nice feeling, much better air flow and less chaffing in certain areas.


Okay, here's the other side of the coin, just for argument's sake... or I should say one of the many sides of the coin.
That may be true to some extent, in some circumstances.
Those of us who are really good at passing (like my buddy Ze for example) have problems with society similar to what MTF CDs experience.
But GGs who are masculine to any lesser degree (like me) can end up frustrated because our clothing is so well accepted that it's virtually impossible to express our masculine side. It's a lot easier for a male to express his female side, and even feel a little thrill and naughtiness doing it if he wants to. A little eyeliner or blouse will do it. Most women just can't do that. We would have to really go all out (it's all or nothing) to be acknowledged as masculine at all.
...But I don't act hateful to innocent GMs because of it.
I had never looked at it like that. I can see how that's frustrating in a way too. One of the reasons I visit this forum, is to hear opinions like that.

In the end I think my personal desire would be a world where there is no real distinction between masculine and feminine, and everything is accepted for everyone. I that sense I am different from a lot of people here I think, in that a lot of people just wish to be on the other side, not to merge both sides.


People are into crossdressing for different reasons, and have different preferences. Personally I am dress to look like a woman, and would not do guy-in-dress mode. But I do admire the courage and respect people who are doing that.

What I found less useful is to whine about the non-acceptance of the society. Talking and complaining is easy and won't help. The do-ers who do get out of the door are giants in action.

Image the women who fought for their right to wear pants a century ago. They faced a far more restrictive society, and a far less accepting public. Talking about the danger of being assulted, a woman back then should have more concern on that than a guy-in-dress now. Though these women pressed ahead and turned the society. They have my respect.

If the question is why the society can accept women wearing men's cloth, that is because they wanted it, fought for it, and got it. They deserve it.

Now go for what you want, and if you don't you deserve not having it.

Very well put. But it still scares me. I hope one day I'll have the courage, coming to this forum has been my first step, I hope I'll make more, but I'm very much a coward.


Why don't you guys band together, dawn your skirts,dresses and 5o'clock shadows and make a stand? safety in numbers and all that? I f you feel so strongly.... take a stand. You want to see things change but none of you seem willing to make change. Everyone wants to be accepted, but nobody wants to step up to the plate. Maybe that is why people consider it whining.
Each group within our group has to make some kind of statement whether they be TS,cross dressers,F2M or what have you. Not everyone will accept everyone else..... fact of life. So you can let fear rule how you live yours and you can piss and moan until the cows come home, but to what end?
IMHO opinion comparing and complaining about what gg's get away with is petty. next thing you'll be complaining about is the fact that they have bigger breasts and that it just isn't fair. A lot of us who made a stand were just as scared as you are, but we did it anyway. We all have our demons.

I've been thinking about this. Can it be that part of what makes us "whiners" who we are, is that we lack some of the male drive and guts to act and do what we should? I don't want to insult GG. Part of what makes me have problems as identify as male is that I don't identify with all the testosterone driven madness I see in a lot of GMs.

I also never had much lust for thrillseeking or amusement park rides.

I'm not defending my own inaction, just trying to understand myself, and see if there are others who feel like me.


If we are going strictly for comfort here, we will also need to eliminate tight corsets and bustiers....high heels (especially spiked heels).....nylons, tights (way too hot, generally not comfortable, rip easily).....hmmm......girdles, well, that's a given....shorts and short skirts (at least in summer, makes your legs stick to the chair).....Hey, what's uncomfortable about boxers??? I think they are the most comfortable thing, ever.....guess it depends on what you consider comfortable.....:D

<<Added to list>> Push up bras and any type of thong (or any article of clothing that rides up the crack). :eek:
I can fully agree with this. Some heels are ok though, if they're not too high.

[ReineD]

...I came across this article in today's [I]
Yuck! No, make that double yuck! What's a self-respecting crossdresser supposed to make of all this :sad::eek::thumbsdn:?

It'll never fly, it's way too trendy.

[sometimes_miss]

The truth: Women can be a flaming cross-dresser and no one will think a thing about it.
I see there are quite a few GG's that disagree with this statement. Yet, pretty much any woman can put on genuine male clothing, from head to toe, and walk into home depot without a stitch of makeup, hair tucked under a baseball cap, buy a boatload of such things like lumber, nails, cement, tools, etc., loading up their orange wagon while wearing work gloves, and no one would give a crap or even give her a second glance; and keep in mind I'm not including her doing any male specific 'over the top' behavior either, just wearing all male attire and behaving normally. My ex wife did this all the time back when we were married (much to my disappointment, I really would rather have had her dress up a bit more girly much more often).
But let a guy wear a short, tight skirt with all the rest of the girl clothes, A cup bra with no padding, frilly top, heels, stockings, jewelry, make up and hairstyle, really female specific items, etc, and go shopping for the day in the ladies clothing section of Bloomingdales or such, and he'll get a very different experience, even if he doesn't change any of the rest of his behavior, you know, still walks like a guy and talks like a guy. GG's CAN get away with way more than we can in this regard.

[linnea]

I don't mean to be flippant, but the solution is to do what women did in the 60s and 70s. They just went out and wore pants and the fashion industry responded with dollar signs in its eyes. When such a large volume of females also wants to wear pants, there is very little society can do other than accept it. But, women wore pants because they were tailored for their bodies and they looked attractive. Excepting transmen, they do not want to buy their pants in men's stores nor do they want to express themselves as men.

I gather from threads I've read here that if skirts and dresses were designed specifically for men the majority of CDers would not want to wear them, especially if the majority of GMs did, since it wouldn't satisfy their desire to express femininity. There is no comparison between women wearing pants designed for women to men wearing dresses designed for women.

I bet if you asked the guys in the transmen section, they would tell you they've also suffered societal bias over presenting as men.

I agree it is frustrating, but the issue is not about men wanting to wear dresses. It is about men wanting to express femininity. And TGs will have to come out in droves for society to be able to begin accepting it. And still it will take time, if you compare the issue to general acceptance of homosexuality; it is much better now than it was in the 60s, but still there are large segments of our population that are staunchly homophobic.

This is right on target, in my opinion.

[skirtsuit]

Blah, blah, blah. wear it and be proud.

You should have seen the envy on the faces of the girls at the Tavern on Monday night when I came dowm stairs in my pink silk jacket & dress and 4.5" strappy sandals. I don't know if they knew I was a guy, but I could see the jelousy and feel their eyes on my back. They probably all wished they could look good in a 8P dress and walk well in really high heels!

Check out the babe in the hot pink

http://www.transvamp.com/events/pictures/0809/index.php

All The Best.

Ann / SS

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

.....That being said, we all face discrimination, we are ALL fighting a battle for acceptance, ie: we are pretty much ALL in the same boat....Cliche as it is, can't we all just get along??? :Angry3:

Trey,

LOVE this post and the one by TGMarlas as well. They say everything that needs to be said. Whatever boat you we are in... getting along and supporting one another can make a difference in the long run.

*hugs*

Zarabeth

[Leslie Langford]

I just got a flyer in the mail promoting the new Fall 2009 upscale "Pure" line by designer Alfred Sung, who is now showcasing some of his fashions through Canadian retailer Zellers ("Target" wannabe).

What do I see on Page 3? A young female model wearing grey plaid pants, a styled white shirt with French cuffs, a loosely tied man's tie around her neck, and all of this is topped off by the proverbial "Boyfriend" cardigan. The only hint of true femininity is the fact that she is wearing modest black heels and what appear to be either patterned trouser socks or tights.

Grrrr! If you're gonna raid my closet, then I'm gonna raid yours :thumbsdn:. Consider yourself warned! :tongueout:D

[Sheila]

What do I see on Page 3? A young female model wearing grey plaid pants, a styled white shirt with French cuffs, a loosely tied man's tie around her neck, and all of this is topped off by the proverbial "Boyfriend" cardigan. The only hint of true femininity is the fact that she is wearing modest black heels and what appear to be either patterned trouser socks or tights.

Grrrr! If you're gonna raid my closet, then I'm gonna raid yours :thumbsdn:. Consider yourself warned! :tongueout:D


Guess you missed the blaring obvious then ........... the fact that she is Feminine and that you saw that straight away .......... the clothes are just that, clothes :brolleyes:........... her femininity comes from within .......... as it does for all of us who know our true femininity (yes I include all the girls in here who believe themselves to be feminine:))

[Shelly Preston]

Nice idea but I don't know how you decide on true femininity

Oh and I am sure the model did not raid your closet

[Deborah Jane]

What do I see on Page 3? A young female model wearing grey plaid pants, a styled white shirt with French cuffs, a loosely tied man's tie around her neck, and all of this is topped off by the proverbial "Boyfriend" cardigan.


From a blending in point of view I guess that should make crossdressing easier then!! :heehee::heehee:

There is nothing to stop you wearing anything you like, apart from yourself, women have exactly the same right, so where's the problem?