Why is it that society accepts it more if a

[heathr1]

woman goes out in public wearing a men's shirt, trousers, jacket, tie and even scent, hardly anyone would even stop and think.

For example, the singer Annie Lennox has done this.

Yet when a man is seen in a skirt, blouse and complete make-up, people may have different thoughts?

Doesn't seem fair.

[Deborah]

Yes don't even get me started. :(

[DragonLotus]

Probably for the same reason that *most* hetero men find the thought of two women having sex to be hot, but the thought of two guys having sex to be appalling.

I think anything that is seen as a challenge to the standard notions of masculinity will get a homophobic reaction from typical men (like 2 men together, or men dressing as women). Women dressing up in guy's fashions is seen as "cute" and not really a threat to that status quo, methinks.

Thanks God the people here aren't typical! :cheer:

[obsessedwithpantyhose]

i have been asking this question for yrs........ why is it when a woman is crossdressed,, i.e. pants and army boots,,, no one says a word but if a man is wearing a skirt hes a fag????i guess its to much for the average moron on the street to be able to wrap their feeble little minds around the idea of people being individuals....

we r NOT males and females....... we ARE human beings,,plain and simple,,, so why do we HAVE to use labels

[Sharon]

Have a woman draw on some facial hair and wear a "loaded" jock strap and see if she doesn't get some comments.

[Julie]

It's actually very simple. I call it the 'Knight In Shining Armor' theory and it all came from my little pee brain.

Our society is basically insecure and afraid. We fear just about everything. We fear aging, we fear not having enough life insurance, we fear criticism, we fear 'what ifs', we fear the boogeyman. So if there's something that can take away some of that fear, we hang onto it with a vise-like grip.

Such is the case with the big strong macho image. He protects us from terrorists, bullies and all the other bad guys. He is strong, he doesn't cry and we feel safe that he's watching over us. And we can run into his big strong arms when we are afraid. And he will hold us and protect us.

Of course there are very few men really like this but don't tell our society that. They NEED this guy. They need him so much they will ridicule any man showing any sign of femininity in hopes of forcing him to become macho. On the flip side, society doesn't think much of any woman being able to do this.

Women are weak and helpless and they cry at the drop of a hat and can't stand on their own two feet (this isn't how I feel, I'm just making a point). Even a woman's voice doesn't command attention like a man's. Who would ever want to lower themselves to be like that?

But when a woman exhibits masculine traits we see it as she's trying to better herself. She wants to be strong and independent and able to stand up for herself. That's just one more person who won't be needing Mr. Macho and society likes that the competition for him was just reduced by one.

Whether I'm right or wrong or if I got my point across properly, the point is our society sees physical strength as something to aspire to and wanting to be feminine flys in the face of that aspiraration.

[DragonLotus]

Nice.

I like that very much.

:thumbsup:

[Khriss]

I'd agree with Dragon Lotus and all the comments so far. Seems in "Western" Culture that anything that threatens the ideal's of maculinity are to be feared or shunned. Feminine ideals seem more flexible to me (as like women themselves?).Some people even get dangerously violent if their sexual "identity" were to be questioned in any way...
Native Americans had 'berdashe" ( men who acted like -women) and accepted them ,totaly,for what they added to the community,
-that seems pretty evolved to me!
the social morays of other (modern?)cultures ? - not so much!

in reguards to men in "skirts",, Ignorance is,Not, bliss!!

sorry4the ramblin' rant,,,xx"K"

[JoAnnDallas]

Julie M....... very well put.

I can be macho when I need to. I am ex-military and a ex-spook.

I also can be very femmium when I want to.

[Marla GG]

But when a woman exhibits masculine traits we see it as she's trying to better herself.

That's absolutely right, Julie.

Women may have the "freedom" to wear masculine clothing up to a point, but that freedom comes at a price. The status of women in society is lower than that of men, so a man who looks like a woman is "degrading himself," whereas a woman who imitates men is emulating characteristics that are valued and respected in society and is "bettering herself."

Women, unless they are transgendered, don't wear manly clothing in order to feel like men. They wear it out of a desire to feel tough and independent, to be taken seriously, to say, "I'm nobody's b*tch," and to give society and its oppressive gender rules a kick in the nuts.

If we lived in a matriarchal society, where women wielded more wealth and social power than men, then perhaps it would be the opposite of how it is today, and a woman who wore men's clothing (whatever that might look like in such a society) would be ridiculed for being "less than a woman."

And let's not forget that women today who wear menswear-inspired styles are still expected to have feminine faces, bodies, voices, mannerisms, etc. if they want to be seen as attractive. Women don't really have permission to be bald, grow beards and chest hair, burp and fart loudly, and cheerfully refer their enormous beer bellies as "the awning over the picnic." Er, not that we would want to. My point however is that we may be able to wear some un-feminine things if we wish, but if we stop looking and acting like women we definitely do meet with society's disapproval.

[eleventhdr]

It is Not! Suzy!.

[Kimberly]

Thanks God the people here aren't typical! :cheer:
At least we're interesting!!!

*To the silent majority* Get some colour in your lives, you miserable desk-workers!!

(No offence if you have a desk job... just stereotyping to make my post funnier...... IT'S LATE!! OKAY!?)

[DragonLotus]

My point however is that we may be able to wear some un-feminine things if we wish, but if we stop looking and acting like women we definitely do meet with society's disapproval.

Oh God, I'm loving this thread. It's the best-est.

If I smoked I would need a cigarrette right now!

:cheer:

Awesome replies everyone.

[Kimberly]

Marla's right, and I'm so glad we have a GG perspective on this.

I'm not gonna go off on one, but: This is not a "we have all the oppression" thing... GGs have expectations too. By society generally, they are expected to act feminine and display those qualities to be attractive. If they do not, they are seen as outcast (to an extent.) Probably to not the same extent as MtF crossdressers get if they are outed, but it's still present.

IT'S NOT A BLACK AND WHITE ISSUE!! THERE ARE SO MANY GREY AREAS! (please destroy my caps lock)

Marla is also spot on with the fact that the status of women is lower than men, (which I, and without a doubt everyone on this forum, think is completely wrong.) So don't just remember we're trying to get us accepted as transgendered, we want GGs to be accepted as equal to men!

[susandrea]

You may find this interesting, and some may already know....

Being a big fan of Eddie Izzard, out as a crossdresser since he was about 23 (at least ten years before he found a lick of fame), I see 99% of his fans feel very protective of his crossdressing ways, both men and women. They not only support his bravery for being out there and being outspoken on many social issues including "Total Clothing Rights", but many of them have gone out of their way to educate themselves on the issue as well. Eddie himself seems to have purged a few times, and has also gone 24/7 en femme when a therapist suspected he was very transgendered.

He has a LEGION of female admirers who find him extremely sexy when en femme, both in the U.S. and in the U.K. The ones that like him better "in blokey mode" are still very supportive of his crossdressing. He has gotten letters for years from people who say his bravery has changed their lives, and not always about crossdressing or any other transgender issue, but about "taking the plunge" to change the outside to fit the inside. I know three women who have told me that it was Eddie who inspired them to be brave enough to go for surgery to lose half their weight. Others say he inspires them to enjoy their feminine side and express it more often---both men and women, but mostly women.

He's been beaten up and spit on, and being in the public eye he has been explaining his crossdressing endlessly to curious journalists until he gets a bit irritated that so many of them are so clueless and still refer to him "in drag" or constantly ask him what he's wearing. Many of them ask extremely personal questions they would NEVER ask a "normal" guy, like, "Do you use your penis when making love?" or "During sex, is there penetration?" Eddie takes pains to answer all questions carefully to try and educate people, even as he is still discovering things about himself as he goes along. He has gone from spending a year basically blokey to going 24/7 en femme when a therapist suspected he was very transgendered. He rarely, if ever, passes as a woman and that saddens him a great deal. He has often said his greatest wish would be to change sexes at will.

He has been accused by gay groups as being a closeted gay man, even though he has never been linked to any men romantically and has often said that coming out as gay would be easier than coming out as a crossdresser. He has also been accused of using crossdressing as a way of getting attention, but since he was long ago rated "icon" staus as a comedian he could easily have "let it slide" a long time ago if that were true. He's been crossdressing for over 20 years now.

When hassled by the public, he's tried the "be extra nice at all times to disarm them" approach to the "get in their faces and liken them to Hitler" approach when faced with jerks, and, I think, has found that there is no perfect defense for all situations.

The thing about Eddie is-- like any crossdresser who also happens to be in the public eye and a likable type-- he gets the issue out there, gets people talking, and opens people's minds. He says he was, and still is, shocked by the huge number of women who adore him and say he should be en femme all the time, but because he also has a strong male side that can be annoying, too. What he REALLY wants is for people to just not pay attention to what he wears and not make a big deal about it.

I know a few people who won't even watch his comedy videos because he looks "too gay", but they are in the extreme minority. Most people groove on his comedy and that helps reduce the fear factor of seeing a guy in a dress. His last tour he wore everything from jeans and a guy shirt to a red satin corset and diamond net stockings. Sometimes he arrives at the venue en femme, only to change into "blokey mode" to be on stage.

In any case, he seems to ever be learning about himself just like any other person, and if he can open a few hundred thousand minds and make those people more sensitive to any kind of alternative sexuality issue then that's just got to be a good thing, don't you think?

It's a shame, but not unexpected, that it takes a celebrity to get most people to grow up, but as long as it happens.....and of course there is still a long way to go. If Eddie were born even twenty years earlier, forget it. Maybe if he were born twenty years later, his crossdressing wouldn't even be much noticed!

He often talks about "Total Clothing Rights" and how women have claimed many more clothing choices for themselves than men have, and that for the most part--at least in the English speaking countries--no one even questions it.

In other countries though, especially SOME (certainly not all) Muslim, Asian, and African societies, women have fewer choices than any other group on the planet and are treated not as second class citizens but maybe as low as fourth class or even as slaves.

Oh, what a world! Such a long way to go....!

[susandrea]

I just noticed the "Eddie quotes" above my reply....hahahahahahaha. Figures! :)

[DragonLotus]

hehe I actually used the "we all have the oppression" thing in some other thread because I didn't want anyone to feel picked on when I vented. It was my way of taking a strongly opposing viewpoint but still trying to say "I'm with you even though it sounds like I'm not".

But really, I believe we are only oppressed if we allow it or if we can't change our own viewpoint enough to rise above the notion. I learned that a long time ago and once I stopped thinking I was a victim my personal power went through the roof!

;)

But yay. Keep the rockin' replies coming. It's great to hear all these wise viewpoints!!!!!

*EDIT* After seeing the comment about Muslim and other women, I have to alter my statement about oppression to refer to the WESTERN world. It's true, we have so far to go and here it's a lot easier to escape oppression than in many places. It makes me both sad and angry that we have such a long way to go toward EVERYONE being allowed to find happiness in any way they see fit.

[MelissaAndProudOfIt]

In answer to this query... from my personal opinion in the UK. I am a fully out dresser and I think it's not what you wear, it's more how you wear it. It's not what you do, it's more how you do it.. Men and women are different this is true. Us transgenders with practice and gaining confidence can normally attain a passable image, providing there is a minimal of negative traits that could give you away. Dressing acceptable ie casual or on a Fri, Saturday night in party wear generally won't get a second glance.. wear anything else and it's more than likely going to get you sussed. I have been out dressed for years now. Only once has someone read me.. So i guess i must be doing something right, including projecting confidence.... hope this helps...



Regards

Melissa

[susandrea]

And men are oppressed, too!

Look what I just came across (wait for the golf thing to end):

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/motion/echo/index?category=Dot%20Comedy&id=2061641&subcategory=Off%20Mikes

[Tristen Cox]

(please destroy my caps lock)

This can be done ya know :whistle:

[Billi49504]

I don't know how many remember this, but women crossdressing was comcidered patriotic. Did you ever hear of Rosey the Riveter. She was the women who went to work in the factories during WWII. She put on overalls and tied up her hair and went to work making airplanes and all the rest of the war machines.
Then in the pre Jordache days, womens jeans usually had a zipper on the left side or in the back. Then in the early 70's, most stores, in the mens dept, on the racks of jeans, were conversion charts. So she could know what size mens jeans to buy.
So women have had a very long head start on us guys. Or as Rosey put on trousers to go to work, Johnny went marching off in a skirt. :D NOT!!! :)

[obsessedwithpantyhose]

women can be VERY independant and demand power while still dressing VERY feminine..in fact a woman in the business world can RULE if she is wearing a nice skirt ,heels , and pantyhose :mad: lost my train of thought

[emmicd]

I find women are attrative no matter what they wear! A woman exudes her sexuality dressed in a mini skirt and also while wearing jeans and a tee shirt. That's just the way it is. That's why girls have more fun!

A guy is certainly not attractive to most women if he parades outside in heels and a little black dress and I'm sure his bowling buddies certainly would pass up inviting him out for a drink if dressed like that. That's just the way things are!

However I do applaud tgs/cds who can dress as they wish and be proud of it. When I see a guy in a dress in a social setting I will certainly respect the individual because I am a cross dresser. When I see a girl dressed in typical male atire I will still find her attractive if she has that feminine appeal!

It will take a lot to change how we are perceived by how we dress. Guys in dresses certainly will not be looked upon as a popular thing. That is why most cross dressers live in the closet!

Emmi

[Dixie Darling]

Let me interject another thought here in regards as to why society doesn't accept a man wearing feminine clothing. What it basically boils down to is the fact that society as a whole is woefully ignorant of what a crossdresser actually is. For the most part all the majority of them has ever seen or heard about crossdressers is what they've been 'fed' from programs like Jerry Springer. I'm sure I don't have to tell you that what's shown there is definitely NOT typical of most crossdressers and it's this false impression that really does ua a lot of harm. Stastistic-wise I've read that the percentage of crossdressers within the general population is anywhere from 1% to 20% with about 10% being the accepted figure. Those of us who are fortunate enough to have computers and access to groups such as this one have an advantage in that we can communicate with each other and LEARN from each other. However, that leaves a whole LOT of folks out there who don't have PCs and access to the same information that we do. In addition, those who DO have it but have no reason to research crossdressing aren't likely to do so UNLESS they become friends with someone who is a CD or discover that someone they know is a crossdresser.

So the big problem (as I see it) is the lack of education about crossdressing. Heck, we all know that we aren't the "monsters" that we're portrayed to be, and we know that we didn't volunteer to be crossdressers. But society in general SEES us that way because that's all they've ever been told about us (with rare exceptions) by the media. It's very SAD indeed, but until there is some sort of mass education about crossdressing I'm afraid we are destined to remain very much as we are at the present in the eyes of the public.

Dixie -- http://www.geocities.com/senorita_cd

[JoannaDees]

Women wear different clothing, but still present a feminine aura. Cross dressers do not. I once saw a couple in the mall. One F2M, and did not "pass", although still looked fine. She was not trying to present a feminine appearance. He got lots of looks and points and stares, but nothing I'd consider malevolent or threatening. I really wanted to talk to them, but did not. I have no pictures to prove this, but they'd have been sacred and you couldn't see them anyway.

If you really want to wear a skirt in the same way a woman wears "men's" clothes, just do it ... without wigs and makeup. Then be prepared to defend yourself, just as those first women did who defied society and threw off the stockings/corsets/slips/dresses/ridiculous shoes (all the stuff designed to keep them as objects and toys) to wear pants.

What you really need to wish for is better upbringing for both boys and girls, then I believe all of this would just disappear. I've found that I can get my "fem fix" by wearing nails and polish all the time, jewelry, perfume ... along with an appreciation of those little things WITHOUT guilt (I understand in some areas even that is hard/dangerous. I've heard you get beat up in Milwaukee for just LOOKING at wigs!). Still like to go full-on femme sometimes though .... kind of like super chlorination of the pool.

[Kimberly]

If you really want to wear a skirt in the same way a woman wears "men's" clothes, just do it ... without wigs and makeup. Then be prepared to defend yourself, just as those first women did who defied society and threw off the stockings/corsets/slips/dresses/ridiculous shoes (all the stuff designed to keep them as objects and toys) to wear pants.
I'd probably do that, but with heels...

And anyway, most of us are here not because we want freedom of all clothing - it's because we want to emulate, express, or even become female or our feminine side.

I agree on the base level that women's clothing is much nicer, much more expressive and there can be a lot of difference in the type of thing women wear, but deep down I want to wear their clothing because I want to express my feminine side. I feel most comfortable in female clothing because within me I believe the female outweighs the male.

... And to be honest, I've never seen women wearing "men's" clothing. If they're wearing trousers (pants) then it's been designed FOR women, and bought from a women's section or shop. Same goes for boxers, jackets, shirts and pretty much any other typical "male" clothing. You'll find most women who wear these type of clothes often mix and match with the more feminine stuff too... maybe what this thread is about is: why can't that be so with men?

[DragonLotus]

What you really need to wish for is better upbringing for both boys and girls, then I believe all of this would just disappear.

Yeah, I really hate it when I'm in a store and a little boy picks up a doll or a stuffed animal and the mom snaps back "Put that down, that's for girls".

Or a little girl gets enthusiastic over some Hotwheels or a building set and gets the same hogwash. Don't parents understand how demoralizing and limiting that is!?!?!?!

People make me ill sometimes.

[Ava Mouse]

I think the biggest barrier to us going out dressed is NOT the public or the public's perception. Or the seemingly double standard for 'crossdressing' women.

Our biggest barrier is rejection by family & friends, or the fear of losing our job, or similar...

I've been out in public a few times, I've been treated well, and no I don't pass as well as my pics do. Point is the public has less of a problem with crossdressers than our close friends and family.

Think about it, your biggest fear is being seen and recognized by someone you know!

If you read Susandrea's post about Eddie Izzard, you'll note that the reporters were less interested in the details of what he was wearing and more interested about his personal life. The public seems less interested in what we're wearing and more concerned about our sexuality and motives.

What's the #1 first question asked of a crossdresser? ... "Are you gay?"

And given the problems with child molesters and other predators, people are certainly wary of things out of the ordinary.

The barrier for men wearing women's clothing is already broken. Wear what you want. The more we do, the more people will see that crossdressers are probably the most harmless group of 'deviants' on the planet...

Once we've established that, our friends, family and co-worker barriers will be easier to break through.

Let's ASSUME the right to wear what we want. Next step is to emphasize the difference between sex and gender.

[Melissa A.]

i have been asking this question for yrs........ why is it when a woman is crossdressed,, i.e. pants and army boots,,, no one says a word but if a man is wearing a skirt hes a fag????i guess its to much for the average moron on the street to be able to wrap their feeble little minds around the idea of people being individuals....

we r NOT males and females....... we ARE human beings,,plain and simple,,, so why do we HAVE to use labels

The point about women wearing guy clothes is valid, but there are differences between men and women. If there weren't, I wouldn't be a crossdresser.

Dressing femininley makes me feel like a girl.And experiencing the part of me that is female makes me feel good. The prettier and more feminine, the better. We can complain all we want about a double standard, which undoubtadley does exist. But the way i see it, we buy into these "accepted gender roles", in a way, every time we put on a skirt.

And that doesn't bother me at all.

Hugs,

Melissa :)

[Leona]

"Our biggest barrier is rejection by family & friends, or the fear of losing our job, or similar..." :thumbsup:

This quote says it all. These are exactly my fears and if it wasn't for the job I would dress 24/7 as a women
I already have rejection due to religion from my family, me living as a women would just put them over the top they could never understand.
They think I put Leona away in the closet 12 yrs. ago when I got my sobriety, little did they know sobriety allowed me to see who I really was and how I wanted to live someday.

[Dixie Darling]

Ava,

You make agood point here and one that had never occurred to me. Personally I couldn't care less what a total stranger might think of me as acrossdresser. I'm certain that many would find it odd, but at the same time if I were presenting myself in a lady-like manner it would hopefully not stir up someone's ire. I have to agree with you on another point also. . . .


"people will see that crossdressers are probably the most harmless group of 'deviants' on the planet..."

Ain't it the TRUTH!!!

Dixie -- http://www.geocities.com/senorita_cd

[Tristen Cox]

I think the biggest barrier to us going out dressed is NOT the public or the public's perception. Or the seemingly double standard for 'crossdressing' women.

Our biggest barrier is rejection by family & friends, or the fear of losing our job, or similar...

I've been out in public a few times, I've been treated well, and no I don't pass as well as my pics do. Point is the public has less of a problem with crossdressers than our close friends and family.

Think about it, your biggest fear is being seen and recognized by someone you know!

If you read Susandrea's post about Eddie Izzard, you'll note that the reporters were less interested in the details of what he was wearing and more interested about his personal life. The public seems less interested in what we're wearing and more concerned about our sexuality and motives.

What's the #1 first question asked of a crossdresser? ... "Are you gay?"

And given the problems with child molesters and other predators, people are certainly wary of things out of the ordinary.

The barrier for men wearing women's clothing is already broken. Wear what you want. The more we do, the more people will see that crossdressers are probably the most harmless group of 'deviants' on the planet...

Once we've established that, our friends, family and co-worker barriers will be easier to break through.

Let's ASSUME the right to wear what we want. Next step is to emphasize the difference between sex and gender.

Excellent post :thumbsup:

[Alayna]

[QUOTE=Melissa A.]The point about women wearing guy clothes is valid, but there are differences between men and women. If there weren't, I wouldn't be a crossdresser.

Dressing femininley makes me feel like a girl.And experiencing the part of me that is female makes me feel good. The prettier and more feminine, the better. We can complain all we want about a double standard, which undoubtadley does exist. But the way i see it, we buy into these "accepted gender roles", in a way, every time we put on a skirt.

And that doesn't bother me at all.

Hugs,

Melissa :)

I think you bring up a very important piece of this puzzle that we tend to ignore. (bear with me on this - I'm long-winded:rolleyes:)

The more I see in the structure of men and women, the more I realize how different our bodies really are. Men's bodies are pretty utilitarian - being suited for strength and stabitlity. Women's bodies are more suited for appearance than function. I've noticed this over time from clothes making and pattern drafting. -Women's ribcages are more like cones and emphasize their breasts, where ours are box-shaped giving us a stout frame and appearance. -women have a layer of fat above their veins and such, giving them a soft and feminine look that we don't have. -Their bodies are curvy and flowing where ours are anything but.

Clothes go the same way, with men's clothes not having much variation but lot's of function, and well, we all know plenty about women's clothes:D. And that's why we wear them, they're soft, artistic, endlessly diverse in style, color and fabric, and help us see our feminine image. I don't know much about Eddie Izzard (I've seen a couple of his stand-ups) but I think one reason, but not the only or most important one, is that he also dresses feminine without attempting to look like a women. At least on the 2 standup DVD's I've seen. He wears makeup that suits his face and personality and wears clothing that accentuates the feminine aspects of his body in a subtle way. He appears androgynous to people and that's much easier for the unknowing public to digest and understand. I don't see nearly as much acceptance and respect for RuPaul - but plenty of things like "he has amazing legs" or "look how big his hair his!". He's still being broken down into objects and I think was more of a fad and curiosity because of it.

It's unlikely that we will ever be completely accepted by society, nothing ever is. We can still make great strides, and those eventual few who can't take it can step in line with the anti-smoking activists and gripe until the end of time because neither are going away. But in all fairness, we have to realize that if we go out dressed to the 9's and do not pass and exaggerate our feminine mannerisms, we're going to be noticed as oddities of society, and reasonably so because we are. NO FLAME WARS - don't take this the wrong way! What I mean is that we are different, and that alone is enough to get noticed. Supermodels are different, tall and short people are different, fat, skinny, etc... There's nothing wrong with any of this and no one should feel ashamed for being a tall crossdressing supermodel, but they aren't being realistic if they get angry or frustrated for being noticed.

There's more to this of course but I just wanted to throw it into the mix - this is a great thread!

[Ava Mouse]

Great post Alayna! Great points!

Billi49504 made a great point, too, with Rosy the Riveter. Women just assumed the right to wear pants after that. Why can't we assume the right to wear a dress/skirt/wigs/hose/boobs, etc.?

I'm seeing more & more men wearing kilts these days... They just assumed they could! It's masculine, but it still takes courage and I respect that. (Of course most of them look like they're ex-Marines and would pound me flat if I teased them... :p )

GOTHs just assumed the right to wear their styles. I applaud that!

Women assumed they could wear 'boy shorts'...

Geeks assumed they could wear pocket protectors! :p

Did any of those groups 'ask permission' from the public? No, they just did it!

Personally, I don't care if CDing ever becomes fully accepted, simple respect and politeness is sufficient. We don't need universal acceptance, just the freedom to enjoy our harmless hobby. You know, we already have that Freedom, let's excercise it!

So, if people ask us why, we don't need an excuse. Our answer should be "...And WHY NOT?!?!"

BUT again, MY limitation is friends, family, work. Like women, my clothing should not be relevent at work, I'm there to work, not be a fashion model. While I'd love to dress up for work, it would be disruptive and I'd loose my job. It's also unfair to demand acceptance from friends and family by coming out to them, I risk rejection there.

So, the anonymous public is where we will feel the most comfortable and accepted, even if partially so. Besides, I like being a non-conformist. ;)


Of course, if CDing ever becomes mainstream, you know what's gonna happen? The fashion industry would push the drag look for women... Women dressed as men trying to look like women! :eek:

[jenniferluv]

Bravo!!!!

[JoAnnDallas]

Found this at this site.

Men in Skirts (http://www.mensfashionfreedom.bravehost.com/)

The men in skirts movement gathered at the Guggenhiem Museum on February 7th and 8th, 2004 to march to the Metropolitan Museum of Art
Million Skirted Men in New York City in support of the movement and the Bravehearts: Men in Skirts exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. For more information...

Men's fashion freedom is happening as you read this text. Men are starting to enjoy fashion as they did for thousands of years. It has only been a recent development in the world that men have not been totally free in self expression through fashion.

This is changing as today there are many men who wear skirts, polish their nails, have long hair, wear earrings and even wear stockings and high heels. Men have done all of these things through the course of history, but during the last four hundred years, men's fashion has continually declined. The changing societal norms will allow men to be free to express themselves freely.

[DragonLotus]

Cool! This got me to thinking (hypothetical question time.....).

Since MtF CD's are expressing their feminine selves by dressing, would dressing take on a different symbolism if hose, heels and skirts were no longer considered purely part of the female fashion domain? Like, if they were considered perfectly normal and acceptable for men to wear in all levels of life (business, socializing, etc)

In other words, would the change in symbolism of clothing cause dressing to seem like less of a feminine expression? *ponders*

[Melissa A.]

Cool! This got me to thinking (hypothetical question time.....).

Since MtF CD's are expressing their feminine selves by dressing, would dressing take on a different symbolism if hose, heels and skirts were no longer considered purely part of the female fashion domain? Like, if they were considered perfectly normal and acceptable for men to wear in all levels of life (business, socializing, etc)

In other words, would the change in symbolism of clothing cause dressing to seem like less of a feminine expression? *ponders*

I usually don't bellyache about getting lost in the shuffle. Hey, it happens. But I think I brought up a very similar point earlier in this thread, in a bit different way. And I think it is somewhat important to discuss, in a thread like this one. Many people complain about the social differences between men and women, and the double standard that constrains men's clothing and appearance choices. My point is, as crossdressers, we buy right into these assigned gender roles whenever we crossdress. I like being feminine when I am in girl mode. Very feminine, so I personally don't have a problem with that. But when you start complaining about what we are expected to look like, as men and women, and wish for a more androgynous world, just be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

There are differences between the two genders. I like that. Don't know if I would be a crossdresser without it. I'm just being realistic about what I am.

Hugs,

Melissa :)

[Melissa A.]

Have a woman draw on some facial hair and wear a "loaded" jock strap and see if she doesn't get some comments.

I meant to include this quote in my above post, got distracted by stuff around here and forgot to. It's about "why" and "how", not just what. A woman wearing pants and boots does not a crossdresser make. Neither does a man in a skirt and a beard. Crossdressing and clothing freedom are two separate things, I think. Thanks, Sharon. Good one.

Hugs,

Melissa :)