The Question Asked Was..........

[Vicky_Scot]

Any one in the transgendered community think a talk show on network tv to educate the general population and provide support to others be a good idea?

This was the rather heated response from a TS and I think she may sum up the real feelings of the TS community IMO.


First, I am not a part of the transgender community. I am a member of the TS-Specific and HBS/IS community, and do not want any transgender nor other non-TS speaking for me. We are capable of speaking for ourselves. True-TSs - mainstream persons with a birth defect - are denied the opportunity and right to speak for ourselves, and TGs and LGBTs arrogantly presume the right to speak for us. Someone who isn't transitioning completely with surgery and seeking to assimilate into and conform to mainstream culture has NO clue about nor the right to speak for those who do. We are not one family, our goals and needs are nowhere close, and we TSs would appreciate it if the TGs and LGBTs stayed out of our business, quit patronizing us, quit condescending to us, and quit trying to "help" (interfere with) us.

A talk show about TSs would be a good idea, if it was hosted by an actual TS, if the participants were actually TSs (not transgenders), and if there is no agenda other than sharing the truth - not what benfits transgenders, the LGBT, the general public, and certainly not the bigots (the biggest anti-TS bigots are in the TG and LGBT community who express their bigotry by redefining who we are into something more convenient for them and constantly hijacking our terminology).

So a TS show would be a good idea if:

1. It is hosted by actual TSs.

2. Actual fully-transitioning TSs who want to assimilate and conform are guests.

3. LGBT, TG, and sexual causes are not advertised during the show. Stick to TS ads or ads for mundane things like cleaning supplies, vehicles, and food.

4. Only TS issues are discussed.

5. Unrelated stuff like gayness and transgenderism isn't mentioned on every show.

6. Controversial issues that TGs/LGBTs care about more than TSs do are not discussed.

7. That it is made clear that TSs are not a part of either the TG nor LGBT community, but the mainstream community (whether the mainstream bigots like it or not).

8. That it is made clear that TSs can do anything or have any opinion that non-TSs can have. For instance, make it clear that TSs can be Christians, Conservatives, bigots, anti-LGBT, etc., just like other mainstream persons.

9. That it is made clear that TSism is a birth defect, not a choice, orientation, nor sexuality. Make it clear that TSs don't want partners who prefer TSs, but people who don't notice they are TSs but treat them as fully born members of the sex they transitioned into.

---
FYI, I side with 90% of the world - the combined Mainstream and TS community.

The truth hurts. The thumb downs come from TGs (or TSs who are sold out to the TG community against the TS & Mainstream community), and not TSs. Only TSs complain of the apartheid and forced lumping with TGs, just like only slaves complained about slavery. Those benefitting TGs/LGBTS or racist slave-owners are those who complain loudest when TSs have their own community apart from them or when slaves are granted their freedom, and neither can see why their victims are complaining.

[Tamara Croft]

Really? you think she speaks on behalf of all TS's? I don't think so. I think she's one stuck up bitch who needs to get a clue. She seems to be part of an elitist TS group, I've seen it all before, but that doesn't mean she speaks for them all. And please, go tell her I said that.. quote me... seriously... I hope she doesn't join our forum.... :Angry3:

[Vicky_Scot]

Thanks for your Eloquent heart felt response Tamara.

As always it is appreciated.

IMO yes I think she may well say what the majority of the TS community think.

:hugs:

Xx Vicky xX

[deja true]

:yt: for Tamara's post...

This kind of elitism is what will hold us all back, Trans and gay and whatever...

The analogy with slavery is way off base, as well. It wasn't only slaves that brought down that hideous institution. It was freed slaves, rebel slave freedom fighters, the religious communities black and white, upper class whites with the power to speak to power, all working together to overturn a system of inhumane horror.

This one cannot possibly speak for all TS folks, as evidenced by the large number of trans people who participate here.

Sounds to me like she wants to be her own little ayatollah!

Sheesh!

[Joni Marie Cruz]

To paraphrase Orwell, we should all be treated equally but some should be treated more equally than others. This is one of the reasons that TGs a group, as a community, will and do have such a difficult time making progress socially and politically, excusivity and fragmentation. Okay, two reasons.

Everybody likes to feel superior for whatever reason they can find, because they're a snappy dresser, or they're out and others aren't, because they can finish the New York Times crossword puzzle in ten minutes, because they've had SRS. Whatever. The fact of the matter is, as far as the general population goes, we are all lumped together in the same odd, but fashionably tricked out, boat. To them TS, crossdresser, preop,non-op, tranny, tgirl, are meaningless distinctions.

It's okay, sweety, go revel in your extra-specialness.

-Joni Mari

[GypsyKaren]

Why is it elitism? I don't want anyone else speaking for me, would you like me speaking for you? The word "transgender" is an invented load of crap because whether you like it or not, a post-op transsexual is a whole lot different than a weekend crossdresser...and before you start throwing shit at me, I said different, not better.

And for the record, I don't even want other post-ops speaking for me, I'm more than capable of speaking for myself.

Karen :g2:

[Sara Jessica]

And now back to our program...

Where the ratings are in the toilet.

Something like this couldn't get above public access. Why? Because the general public wouldn't give a hoot about such a mundane concept.

Put this in the context of an Oprah. Why is she so successful? It's because the topics she presents are appealing to her target audience. Health, social issues, a little beauty here and there and of course the obligatory cry-inducing episode. That audience also happens to be vastly larger than a target audience of stealth TS individuals or those who desire to go in that direction.

Mainstream folks just wouldn't care about the concept you describe. This is why even the best of treatment we receive in the media contains at least some of the tantalizing subjects you suggest be avoided.

[~Kelly~]

I don't see this viewpoint as overly outrageous. There ARE major differences. And representation from others may not always reflect the thoughts and attitudes you have. Take the US political scene for example. Conservatives and Liberals don't share much in common in terms of ideals. Yet they both are Americans. This doesn't stop a Conservative from voicing an opinion when a Liberal in power claims representation of ALL the people. Nor does it stop a Liberal from speaking out against Conservatives who claim total representation. Whether anyone likes it or not, we are dealing with two separate and distinct groups here. One not better than another.....just different. That DOESN'T in any way mean we can't get along. We can share differing viewpoints and remain a family.......just don't speak for the ENTIRE family when everyone is not represented.

[Rachel Morley]

My :2c: is that I totally understand her frustrations of what she considers "being lumped in with the rest of the TG crowd".

However, like it or not, that's how it's going to be perceived by the uninformed public also probably the media and we just have to deal with it. IMHO it's no different than me as a CDer being considered by the uniformed that I am some sort of transvestic panty fetish person ... which of course I'm not. It just goes with the territory. People like to "pigeon-hole" others .... especially others they don't understand. :2c:

[Lorileah]

That would be one very short program targeting a very small audience with little disposable income. I don't even think it would be a very long documentary or infomercial.

Maybe it isn't elitism as Karen pointed out but it sure is a new discrimination. You eliminate even discussions about sexuality and LOGO won't show it. Ts's have enough trouble getting respect and then you dis the LGBT community?

By law all cable companies have to allow access to the airwaves for the community. So there is your forum. Play it like you want to play it, see if anyone watches or for how long before they switch to re-runs of the Golden Girls or Say Yes to the Dress.

Concrete fighter planes sounded good in theory but they were hard to get off the ground

[Ze]

First, I am not a part of the transgender community. I am a member of the TS-Specific and HBS/IS community, and do not want any transgender nor other non-TS speaking for me. We are capable of speaking for ourselves. True-TSs - mainstream persons with a birth defect - are denied the opportunity and right to speak for ourselves, and TGs and LGBTs arrogantly presume the right to speak for us. Someone who isn't transitioning completely with surgery and seeking to assimilate into and conform to mainstream culture has NO clue about nor the right to speak for those who do. We are not one family, our goals and needs are nowhere close, and we TSs would appreciate it if the TGs and LGBTs stayed out of our business, quit patronizing us, quit condescending to us, and quit trying to "help" (interfere with) us.

This makes me sad. Truly. The foundational concern is valid, but it seems to be smothered in what appears to be anger, hate, and condescendence. How can we gain anything if we don't work together? Why yell at us and push us away instead of educating us to help you in the struggle? Albeit there are always morons in any group, but if the answer is because we'll simply never "get it," then you're still just as screwed as us. If "we" can't "get it," then the mainstream society definitely won't "get it." It'd be delusional and hypocritical to think otherwise simply based on the flow of argument, if nothing else.

I just keep getting this image now of a TS on a talk show, pushing away a TG with one hand and gesturing to a cisgendered crowd with the other.

[Gerard]

I don't agree that transsexual issues can be seen completely separate from gay an crossdresser issues.

I agree it's not the same, but each group shares one important thing with the other.

What I see that transsexual and gay people share is what you call a "birth defect". For reasons not yet fully understood, their brains were wired differently than what would be default for their bodies.

The thing that transsexuals have in common with crossdressers, is that they run into a lot of the same cultural taboos, even if the reasons for their deviant behaviour are different.

Just my :2c:

[Vicky_Scot]

The thing that transsexuals have in common with crossdressers, is that they run into a lot of the same cultural taboos, even if the reasons for their deviant behaviour are different.

Just my :2c:

Now there is a word that might just get a response. Calling TS's and CD's deviants. My initial reaction was who she calling deviant as it conjures up people that do things that you should never do........I think you know who I am talking about.

But Deviant seem a valid word to describe us if you take its description. :eek:

Deviant: Differing from a norm or from the accepted standards of a society.

So yes we are all deviants.

Xx Vicky xX

[PaulaJaneThomas]

Vicky, you might want to edit your original post and put the quoted stuff in a quote box like so:


sdfad fgfg fh gh hjh hjhjhhjh hjhjhjh

fgetyety hgjtjtjh hjhjgh jh

otherwise someone might mistakenly read them as your views.

[Christinedreamer]

MANY of us in the TG world do understand the differences and have a heart felt respect and for want of a better word, sympathy for our TS sisters.

True, some crossdressers are more interested in the fetish displays that may get the attention and therefore true TS getl umped in with the crowd and have a rough time separating themeselves in the eyes of the public.

Personally I feel it is much easier to establish a dialogue with the vanilla world if we, as a group that in various ways and degrees, varies from the accepted genetic "norm" establish communications with the generic world that teaches that gender and sex are different and are definitely NOT binary.

Fragmented representaions of gender conflicted or gifted individuals will only serve to isolate us all.

This is one reason I am firmly against the flamboyant displays in Pride parades etc. We are trying to get public acceptance of sexual orientation, lifestyle variations and personal issues with gender so that we as individuals and as groups can be allowed to live our lives without fear of retribution, physical danger, social ostracism etc.

The attitude expressed by the original quote is no different IMO, from the vanilla public's attitude. She must accept the fact that a great many of us affiliated with all the aspects LGBT represents are indeed truly in sympathy and exercise empathetic support and do honestly try to explain to folks unfamiliar with all the gender permutations what the differences are and how personally painful they can be.

IMHO, there is no rational justification for such an across-the-board diatribe and rant against the entire LGBT community.

[Vicky_Scot]

Vicky, you might want to edit your original post and put the quoted stuff in a quote box like so:



otherwise someone might mistakenly read them as your views.

Thanks Paula. Its done.

Xx Vicky xX

[Joan Merrie]

I have to agree, with Karen, and Kelly on this. We are all part of a huge family. one is no better than the other. I think we can all speak for our selves. It's like this, My brother doesn't support me at all, why would I want him to speak for me.:hugs::love:

[MiraM]

Really? you think she speaks on behalf of all TS's? I don't think so. I think she's one stuck up bitch who needs to get a clue. She seems to be part of an elitist TS group, I've seen it all before, but that doesn't mean she speaks for them all. And please, go tell her I said that.. quote me... seriously... I hope she doesn't join our forum.... :Angry3:

Well said. I'm still trying to figure out this choice thing she mentioned. I don't seem to remember getting the memo that said I had a choice if I wanted to be Gay and Transgendered. It's not like I woke up one morning and decided that I would be two things that would be sure to make me hated by the majority of the people on the planet. Not sure I would have taken that choice. But I was born this way....yes, I too have this 'birth defect' and believe I should have been born female. Truth is though, I am a gay male that happens to be TG as well, and chopping of the weewee ain't gonna change that. Now I'm not saying that TS's are gay males that can't deal with being gay. I know being TS is a serious issue and that for a true TS, the only option is GRS and living as they should have been in the first place, and I have nothing but respect for those that are strong enough to do it.

And, if she were so interested in fitting in and assimilating, why would she want a TV show anyway. Isn't that the opposite of assimilating? Seems like that is trying to set oneself apart from the mainstream. Another point for her...people in the GLBT community can also have the same beliefs and opinions as the mainstream, and we should have the same rights as well. And BTW...It's not a choice, anymore than being TS is a choice for you.


------------------------------------------------
I'm here, I'm queer, and it's FABULOUS!

[GypsyKaren]

Maybe it isn't elitism as Karen pointed out but it sure is a new discrimination. You eliminate even discussions about sexuality and LOGO won't show it. Ts's have enough trouble getting respect and then you dis the LGBT community?


Seeing as we were specifically deleted from ENDA by the Gay faction, I could give a flying rat's ass about them.


The thing that transsexuals have in common with crossdressers, is that they run into a lot of the same cultural taboos, even if the reasons for their deviant behaviour are different.

The software filters won't allow my original response, so I'll just say that this is an example of why I don't want others to speak for me.

Karen :g2:

[Wen4cd]

I think people should do and be what they desire to do and be.

[michelle_tx]

While I do agree, yes, a ts is different from a tg which is different from a cd which is different from...and on and on, the truth is it's a lot easier to make progress as a united front than splintered into a billion different fractions. We have a hard enough time as it is with people remembering there's a T when it comes to LGBT rights. Now you want to segregate even more? Sure, each group does indeed have it's own concerns and priorities. But the truth is, there's strength in numbers, and it's a lot easy to push an agenda (acceptance) the more people you have. No, I certainly don't want anyone to put words into my mouth. But there is one thing we do all have in common, TS or TG or CD or whatever, and that's trying to educate against prejudice in society. After we get a handle on that, then we can all go back into our respective corners and get into a pissing match about our individual needs.

[Sweet Jane]

my thoughts would have been if the show was to 'educate'it should show the entire spectrum...that way people will know how we all 'fit' together......a narrow focus will mean that when people see something that doesn't align with a 'file in their head' they will be as ignorant as they ever were, possibly to the point of saying the show was 'not accurate'...this would make us out to be liars as well as ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 'different'...anyway, i can't see it happening in the next year or two, well not where i live anyway!

[TxKimberly]

Well well well, kind of stirring things up aren't we?

My problem with the person quoted has more to do with their attitude than their message. I DO have a problem with their message, it's just that the attitude pisses me off MORE.

Several people responding to this post managed to politely make the point that a transitioning TS has a different set of worries, needs, and issues than those of us that aren't going to transition. They made this point politely, they made it decently and with respect for the feelings of others. The person quoted though, drips contempt for all of those not on her own path. Only an idiot wouldn't realize that someone transitioning has a unique set of concerns and issues, but this does not make them better, it does not set them above others, and they certainly have no basis for being stuck up and holier-than-thou.

Now as for her message. Sorry, I guess I was wrong about that - it DOES make me just as mad, and as far as I'm concerned she can blow THAT out her ass end too. There are a LOT of us out here that have all the same feelings, thoughts, wants, desires, and dreams that a transitioning TS has, but for what ever reason, we will never actually do it. That she some how assumes that my concerns have no relevance to the TS world, and that this theoretical talk show should ignore me out of hand simply because I'm not going to get an operation is just somehow deeply offensive.

It seems to me that her idea of the perfect talk show would be to have one where she is the host, she is also the one and only guest, and we get to hear only about her concerns. Please let me know when it airs - I need a good laugh . . .

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Shoot-howdy, Kimberly, don't sugarcoat it, girl, how do you really feel? ^5. You go, girl.

Hugs...Joni Mari




Well well well, kind of stirring things up aren't we?

My problem with the person quoted has more to do with their attitude than their message. I DO have a problem with their message, it's just that the attitude pisses me off MORE.

Several people responding to this post managed to politely make the point that a transitioning TS has a different set of worries, needs, and issues than those of us that aren't going to transition. They made this point politely, they made it decently and with respect for the feelings of others. The person quoted though, drips contempt for all of those not on her own path. Only an idiot wouldn't realize that someone transitioning has a unique set of concerns and issues, but this does not make them better, it does not set them above others, and they certainly have no basis for being stuck up and holier-than-thou.

Now as for her message. Sorry, I guess I was wrong about that - it DOES make me just as mad, and as far as I'm concerned she can blow THAT out her ass end too. There are a LOT of us out here that have all the same feelings, thoughts, wants, desires, and dreams that a transitioning TS has, but for what ever reason, we will never actually do it. That she some how assumes that my concerns have no relevance to the TS world, and that this theoretical talk show should ignore me out of hand simply because I'm not going to get an operation is just somehow deeply offensive.

It seems to me that her idea of the perfect talk show would be to have one where she is the host, she is also the one and only guest, and we get to hear only about her concerns. Please let me know when it airs - I need a good laugh . . .

[charlie]

Judging from the comments on this forum, a pro TG group, I guess our issues are not ready for television yet. Nobody would agree with the program or the announcer!

[Jenny Brown]

Really? you think she speaks on behalf of all TS's? I don't think so. I think she's one stuck up bitch who needs to get a clue. She seems to be part of an elitist TS group, I've seen it all before, but that doesn't mean she speaks for them all.
I agree 100%.
Sounds like one of the elitist TS's from the my husband betty forum. Some real pieces of work over there.:straightface:

[MiraM]

Well well well, kind of stirring things up aren't we?

My problem with the person quoted has more to do with their attitude than their message. I DO have a problem with their message, it's just that the attitude pisses me off MORE.

Several people responding to this post managed to politely make the point that a transitioning TS has a different set of worries, needs, and issues than those of us that aren't going to transition. They made this point politely, they made it decently and with respect for the feelings of others. The person quoted though, drips contempt for all of those not on her own path. Only an idiot wouldn't realize that someone transitioning has a unique set of concerns and issues, but this does not make them better, it does not set them above others, and they certainly have no basis for being stuck up and holier-than-thou.

Now as for her message. Sorry, I guess I was wrong about that - it DOES make me just as mad, and as far as I'm concerned she can blow THAT out her ass end too. There are a LOT of us out here that have all the same feelings, thoughts, wants, desires, and dreams that a transitioning TS has, but for what ever reason, we will never actually do it. That she some how assumes that my concerns have no relevance to the TS world, and that this theoretical talk show should ignore me out of hand simply because I'm not going to get an operation is just somehow deeply offensive.

It seems to me that her idea of the perfect talk show would be to have one where she is the host, she is also the one and only guest, and we get to hear only about her concerns. Please let me know when it airs - I need a good laugh . . .

AMEN Sister!!!

[subaru_forster]

Hmm, I must disagree with the view that a TS and a TG are seperate People. So one chose to undergo a particular surgical procedure. IMO, anyone who takes a surgical procedure as license to bash a community of those who, apart from having surgery, are the same as themselves is a hypocrite.

A person's genetailia, current or at birth, is nobody else's business. (Save an SO, or a doctor) And I don't think a TG should be separated from a TS any more than a TS should be separated from the mainstream.

Note that my argument doesn't necessarily apply to those who merely crossdress, but are full on to be identified as the gender they present themselves as.

[Wen4cd]

Yeah, I don't think that person quoted can speak for anyone but herself, and her enormous attitude problem.

[Lorileah]

quite the contrary Charlie, we are just not ready for one person to dictate what we should or should not feel and how we should think. There are dozens of cable channels with people with plastic hair and an agenda who espouse an ideology. Many are successful because people are sheep. The people who have commented here are not. But a broad range show that presented all aspects of TGism may actually be a good draw

[SirTrey]

Why is it elitism? I don't want anyone else speaking for me, would you like me speaking for you? The word "transgender" is an invented load of crap because whether you like it or not, a post-op transsexual is a whole lot different than a weekend crossdresser...and before you start throwing shit at me, I said different, not better.
And for the record, I don't even want other post-ops speaking for me, I'm more than capable of speaking for myself.

:thumbsup: I could not agree with Karen more....well stated and right on the money....Living day to day both during and after transition is an entirely different experience....and our issues ARE different.....ALL of us need to fight for our rights....and though we do share some issues and problems....there are also some that ARE unique to TS's. Again, not better....DIFFERENT. And that is not elitist.

[Miranda09]

Well, about all I can add to this discussion is that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, which is apparantly based on their own personal experiences (Who knows. This TS may have brought about these negative interactions by her own confrontational attitude. Just because one now looks like a female, doesn't mean they always act like a lady). Whether or not others agree is what forums like this are for, to state those differences...whether politely or not. But, it is a healthy debate, and I, for one, enjoy hearing both sides of the coin. My opinion? Well, just because I'm NOT going to transition does NOT mean my concerns are any less, as Kimberly has stated. OK, there's my 2 cents worth! :)

[Sharon]

Acknowledging that transsexuality is different than crossdressing is not elitism, we are simply different. I don't want a crossdresser speaking for me because they haven't a clue what being a transsexual is, just as I don't fully understand crossdressers.

The person quoted in the original piece may be a bit over-vehement in her words, but I agree with it in spirit.

[Christinedreamer]

I certainly would not want someone possessed of such a venomous attitude to speak about me for sure.

It may interest those who agree with her that, as Kimberley so eloquently explained, there are those of us whose heart may be that of a full op TS HOWEVER for numerous reason we cannot follow that path to its conclusion.

I also do not appreciate being denigrated by someone who does NOT know my heart but makes assumptions about me based on ZERO knwledge of MY situation.

Remember the old Biblical adage about splinters in someone else's eye and ignoring the beam in your own.

[SirTrey]

Christine, no one is denegrating anyone....and nobody is saying that you don't have the heart of a post op TS....but you don't face the same LIFE problems as one....That's not a put down, and I don't know why you are taking it as one....It is just a fact....For example....If you are not transitioned, do you face the same employment issues that a post op transsexual does when looking for work? No, you show up in drab and no one knows what is in your heart....This is all we are trying to say....Why does everyone have to be so touchy about things? Geez. Does everything have to be a personal attack on someone ALL the time? :doh:

[Lorileah]

I find it interesting that some wish to only speak for themselves. A lone voice in the wilderness so to speak. Yet they wish their opinions be heard. The corollary to this would be that we would not care what your opinion is since you don't seem to care what we think. It does not make for a great dialogue. Honestly no one can "feel" what you feel. So on a technical basis we would all be islands. But we need to draw from shared experiences or learn from others experiences. To isolate or withdraw when help is offered is illogical.

I agree that we as a community need to get our message out more. We have sequestered ourselves so long on the premise of "you cannot know what I feel" that we have made ourselves less approachable to the outside world. This kind of thinking is not helpful to either yourself or the community in general.

How would the person who stated that she thought that only Post-op TS's had anything that she wanted to know and found that no one really wanted to share anything with her at all? She is the one who started the isolation, I hope she enjoys her lonely life afterward with only "her" people. Her bitterness can only grow. How can she expect anyone to accept her and know her if she blocks all attempts to learn?

As I stated earlier this would be a very short television event. It would be "Hi I'm ----- a post op transsexual and you can't possibly understand what I am going to say." Remotes all over the world would switch to Cops reruns so fast. The three other post-ops who stayed would eventually disagree with something and they too would be gone. My way or the highway leaves you with your thumb in the breeze. No I don't understand some people here but I am willing to listen and I will learn or I hope they will listen and learn also. The men in the Transmen forum have taught me so much in the last few months. I hope I am less ignorant now about how they feel and how they want their lives to be. I find that the TS boards are a lot less willing to talk to "us". Ask any CD and the majority will tell you that they have considered that they were TS. Now we have this person who tells us that because we have decided , at this time, not to transition we can't possibly understand. Hey we aren't all that stupid no matter how silly we act at times.

So that's what I think and as of right now if you don't wish to communicate and carry on a conversation where we BOTH might learn, I won't listen and you can scream at the breeze. I agree with Tamara we don't need that kind of closed mindedness here, we get that daily in the "real" world.

[Chiana]

My problem is that I don't know exactly what little pigeon hole I am supposed to be in. There are times when I think I am "just" a guy in a dress. Other times I wish I could have had the opportunity to transision. There are times when I detest my male genetalia. And there are times that I wished I could have felt a child grow inside me. I guess if the world was perfect, I would have been born as a female and I would never have had to deal with any of these issues. I would have gotten married, had a home in the suberbs, and had 2.3 children. I resent someone having a holier than thou attitude and saying that I can't be granted access to their exclusive discussions. Like it or not we are in the same boat even though I may not look like you.

[Christinedreamer]

It seems somewhat ironic (odd) that a TS wants to have a TV program devoted to TS only to explain to the general public how they feel as TS individuals not being fully acclimated into mainstream society because they are different. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Let's distill it down: "I am different. I am a transsexual. No one who is not a full post op transsexual is capable of understanding me. I am special. Accept me as a woman and respect my womanhood without malice, question, derision, curiosity, false compassion etc. I want to blend into society and be accepted as a full woman. But remember always, I am a transsexual and different from you. That is why I started this program."

[SirTrey]

They would start the program so that they could educate people about how different we actually are NOT when it actually comes down to it....To dispel misconceptions so that we actually CAN acclamate and be treated just like everyone else...THAT would be the point of a show like this. Not to say we are different or special....Just to say, leave us alone, we are just like you, we just had a slightly different start in life.

[TSchapes]

First, I am not a part of the transgender community.

Sorry, you are.

I am a member of the TS-Specific and HBS/IS community

Yes, you are.

, and do not want any transgender nor other non-TS speaking for me.

I never said I was speaking for you, I am here as an ally, much like if I were a straight ally.

We are capable of speaking for ourselves. True-TSs - mainstream persons with a birth defect - are denied the opportunity and right to speak for ourselves, and TGs and LGBTs arrogantly presume the right to speak for us.

I know you are capable of speaking for yourselves and you do. Really, we don't let you speak? When did this happen?

Someone who isn't transitioning completely with surgery and seeking to assimilate into and conform to mainstream culture has NO clue about nor the right to speak for those who do.

Yes, like the doctors and lawyers that are trying to help you. They have no clue and should shut up right now. Maybe with this kind of attitude you'll get your wish.

We are not one family, our goals and needs are nowhere close, and we TSs would appreciate it if the TGs and LGBTs stayed out of our business, quit patronizing us, quit condescending to us, and quit trying to "help" (interfere with) us.

Can you imagine if Marting Luther King took this kind of attitude? How far do you think the civil rights movement would have gone? You have no idea what it's like to be a black man in the U.S. so just shut up and quit trying to help us. Yea, that's going to work...

Have you ever thought that a TG might have a better clue than a cisgendered person does about your plight? If you have a problem with what I'm saying, then why don't you educate me? If you can't educate me, how do you think you're going to get your point across to the rest of the world? It's a lonely path that you have chosen and you're making it harder on yourself when you do not enlist the help of others.

[Ze]

Can you imagine if Marting Luther King took this kind of attitude?

"I have a dream...that all of you leave me the hell alone!" :lol:

[Tora]

Could we be forgetting how deverse our group is. There is more than one shade of grey. The neet thing here is the MANY points of view. I have lost count of how many molds would be needed to lable each mind set, personality, and need of our group. I have learned to admire many paths and personalities.

[Fab Karen]

First, I am not a part of the transgender community.

Sorry, you are.

I am a member of the TS-Specific and HBS/IS community

Yes, you are.

, and do not want any transgender nor other non-TS speaking for me.

I never said I was speaking for you, I am here as an ally, much like if I were a straight ally.

We are capable of speaking for ourselves. True-TSs - mainstream persons with a birth defect - are denied the opportunity and right to speak for ourselves, and TGs and LGBTs arrogantly presume the right to speak for us.

I know you are capable of speaking for yourselves and you do. Really, we don't let you speak? When did this happen?

Someone who isn't transitioning completely with surgery and seeking to assimilate into and conform to mainstream culture has NO clue about nor the right to speak for those who do.

Yes, like the doctors and lawyers that are trying to help you. They have no clue and should shut up right now. Maybe with this kind of attitude you'll get your wish.

We are not one family, our goals and needs are nowhere close, and we TSs would appreciate it if the TGs and LGBTs stayed out of our business, quit patronizing us, quit condescending to us, and quit trying to "help" (interfere with) us.

Can you imagine if Marting Luther King took this kind of attitude? How far do you think the civil rights movement would have gone? You have no idea what it's like to be a black man in the U.S. so just shut up and quit trying to help us. Yea, that's going to work...

Have you ever thought that a TG might have a better clue than a cisgendered person does about your plight? If you have a problem with what I'm saying, then why don't you educate me? If you can't educate me, how do you think you're going to get your point across to the rest of the world? It's a lonely path that you have chosen and you're making it harder on yourself when you do not enlist the help of others.

You summed up the things I was going to say.
To say being TS is different is a fact. To say TS's have absolutely nothing in common with non-TS transgender people is arrogant and ignorant.

[Mmmatt]

Too much cart before the horse action going on.

Sure, it would be nice to educate people about the hows and whys and differences between crossdressers, drag queens, transsexuals, transvestites, etc... but I don't think that gets to the heart of the issue.

The issue is that gender is not binary. There's more than just the stereotypical male and the stereotypical female, much more. Getting people to understand that is crucial, anything else is gravy if you ask me.

One last thing: Educational TV sucks most of the time. Those hideous discovery channel "I Changed My Gender" shows they play side by side with shows about siamese twins and people with massive tumors all over their heads do more harm than good.

Best bet: Incorporate characters of different genders into mainstream TV. See Dirty Filthy Money, Isis on Top Model, etc. Get people comfortable with the fact that trans etc does not equal freak.

[sheidelmeidel]

The fact of the matter is, as far as the general population goes, we are all lumped together in the same odd, but fashionably tricked out, boat. To them TS, crossdresser, preop,non-op, tranny, tgirl, are meaningless distinctions.

It's okay, sweety, go revel in your extra-specialness.

-Joni Mari

That's what I wanted to say but Joni Mari already said it. People don't really go into all those fine points, and most people will always think our behavior is odd. I think it's better to just enjoy what you can and not inject so much drama and importance into things.

[suchacutie]

The original post moans about other people speaking for her and then she tries to speak for others...hmmm.

Meanwhile, we all know that the spectrum of issues we all face is so broad that no one person can claim to know or understand them all. None of us can speak for all of us! Most of us have the common sense to express our personal views and then to shut up!

Oh, and I'm sure that each one of us has a different set of issues that are totally critical in our lives related to the presentation of our femininity. No one has the right to say our personal issues are not important, and no one has the right to say that they understand all of our personal issues. It's nicely symmetrical!

Lastly, the general public hasn't got a clue about the discussion we are having. I've been with otherwise rational people who, when they saw a guy clearly in drag, absolutely boiled over! I was totally shocked! Normally tolerant and open-minded people just went right over the edge about those "faggots!" I calmly replied that they were clearly performers (they were) and I wondered where they were going. That ended the discussion (they were a bit embarrassed) but their initial response was just incredible, and, I fear, a window to their real thoughts. If they are typical, I'm surprised any of us survive a trip to the grocery store! I'm afraid that we have a long row to hoe if we are to finally get the message of tolerance and civility across to the general public, along with the message that we are like everyone else, just gender gifted :)

:2c:

tina

[dilane]

Any one in the transgendered community think a talk show on network tv to educate the general population and provide support to others be a good idea?

This was the rather heated response from a TS and I think she may sum up the real feelings of the TS community IMO.

I think that there are so many different flavors of TV, TG, TS that they are quite different. There's a huge difference between people who are mainly fixated on articles of clothing, eg, panties, and those who want to integrate as women in society. I can see why a TS trying to just get on with life as an ordinary woman would have a problem when someone into the fetish aspect controls or influences how they are percieved.

On the other hand, I've known several TG/TV friends over a span of 10 or more years, and they have moved over to being TS. I distinctly remember one now post-op friend saying "I'd never get SRS!" They had no problem identifying with the TG/TV community for many years, and were fixated on mini-skirts just like the many TV's one sees in the clubs. But some of them now look down their noses at people who are now where they were years ago.

In a couple of cases (for example, my best friend for many years), they have simply said, "I'm a true woman, and you are just a TG, I will never see you or speak to you again". I've heard of several other such cases.

I also have several passable and successful post-op friends and acquaintances who have no problem associating with us mere TG types.

I'm not TS (merely TG, meaning that I want to integrate and blend as a woman, but w/out surgery). I'd feel uncomfortable with someone on the fetishistic side or gender-blend side of the community speaking for me.

-- Diane

[susandrea]

"We must, indeed, all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately."

-- Benjamin Franklin (while wearing a wig and stockings)

:2c:

I've been studying the transgender community for the last four years for a writing project. I have YET to meet a non-transgender person who has a clue what the difference between a CD, a drag queen, a transsexual, or a female impersonator is, and after I explain they don't understand why anyone would care about the differences.

In other words, the ignorance is off the charts.

My view is that it will take as many people from all these different groups PLUS all the non-transgender people possible to make any headway at all.

As long as the help is heartfelt and positive, I would think anyone within shouting distance of any of the transgender subgroups would welcome a baby step forward in educating the public.

The TG and TS communities will forever be considered a fringe group (and even a scary weirdo fringe group) until a great deal of help comes from the non TG and TS population. The laws crafted and passed to benefit and protect all of you happen in State and Federal government, and last I looked there weren't too many transgender people included on those roll calls. They are also the same bunch who rescind those laws unless the momentum in education (leading to tolerance and even support) steadily increases in the future. Just look how our gay brothers and sisters are losing many of the rights they fought so hard for (Prop 8 in CA for example).

The work to be done is enormous, and it won't happen unless everyone is willing to help both themselves and anyone else that needs the same kind of help, no matter what the finer details may be.

As for me, being a non-transgender person that has bothered to learn about the subject and in turn tries to pass that knowledge (and a positive viewpoint) to others has been a fascinating journey and a PRIVILEGE.

:love:

[Christinedreamer]

One of my best friends is the executive director of an AIDS support agency. She has been TS all her life but she was always afraid of the reaction and possible threat to her job even though "drag" in some aspect is well known in the community she serves. We met at an MCC church where we found an intsant kinship of common desires. I along with my GF actively encouraged her to allow her true self to be expressed as the woman she is within.

She swallowed hard, took the plunge and announced her intent to transition. NOT ONE person at church, her organization, their benefactors etc had anything but enthusiastic encouragement for her.

She is well on her way now to SRS and now that she lives as a pre-op TS and has for three years while she saves up and runs her very successful organization, she is happier than she has ever been.

To sum up, this non op TG (moi) and a straight woman and several LGBT folks at church actively participated in the repairative therapy of a wonderful and sweet TS and acted as spokespersons for her on more than one occasion.

Should we have just stayed quiet and let her assume her world would crash if anyone knew?

As an analogy, I am not a ER doctor however I know what to do when someone is bleeding.

[angelis13]

We’re all birds of similar feather
If hard times ahead we are to weather
A little compassion people, we’re all in this together


This is one verse from a poem I posted on this site after I saw all the infighting,
That this niche didn’t fit in, didn’t like, didn’t understand, didn’t believe in, that niche.
It may be naive of me to think this way, but has it’s been stated in other posts, a united front can achieve more than a singular “knee jerk” reactionary or soap box preacher.

Notice I said “similar” not “same”, I know we're all different (thank god, it be pretty boring if we weren’t) and that we all have different needs/wants/feelings, but we do have some similarities.
Not that it should make any difference but I am TS, and I have friends from all walks of life, and I don’t mind anyone of them speaking on my behalf, but as far has the person mentioned in the original post is concerned I would not want a person so internally focused speaking on my, or anyone else’s behalf .

Angel

[Lisa Golightly]

Really? you think she speaks on behalf of all TS's? I don't think so. I think she's one stuck up bitch who needs to get a clue. She seems to be part of an elitist TS group, I've seen it all before, but that doesn't mean she speaks for them all. And please, go tell her I said that.. quote me... seriously... I hope she doesn't join our forum.... :Angry3:

Yeah you said it... a dozy aristocrat type who looks down upon the sane.


The thing that transsexuals have in common with crossdressers, is that they run into a lot of the same cultural taboos, even if the reasons for their deviant behaviour are different.

Only my girlfriend has the right to call me a deviant... :)

[victoriamwilliams1]

Really? you think she speaks on behalf of all TS's? I don't think so. I think she's one stuck up bitch who needs to get a clue. She seems to be part of an elitist TS group, I've seen it all before, but that doesn't mean she speaks for them all. And please, go tell her I said that.. quote me... seriously... I hope she doesn't join our forum.... :Angry3:

I agree!



I don't see this viewpoint as overly outrageous. There ARE major differences. And representation from others may not always reflect the thoughts and attitudes you have. Take the US political scene for example. Conservatives and Liberals don't share much in common in terms of ideals. Yet they both are Americans. This doesn't stop a Conservative from voicing an opinion when a Liberal in power claims representation of ALL the people. Nor does it stop a Liberal from speaking out against Conservatives who claim total representation. Whether anyone likes it or not, we are dealing with two separate and distinct groups here. One not better than another.....just different. That DOESN'T in any way mean we can't get along. We can share differing viewpoints and remain a family.......just don't speak for the ENTIRE family when everyone is not represented.

Very true and many of the same political variants are in the community as well.



It seems to me that her idea of the perfect talk show would be to have one where she is the host, she is also the one and only guest, and we get to hear only about her concerns. Please let me know when it airs - I need a good laugh . . .

I need to see it mysef.


Hmm, I must disagree with the view that a TS and a TG are seperate People. So one chose to undergo a particular surgical procedure. IMO, anyone who takes a surgical procedure as license to bash a community of those who, apart from having surgery, are the same as themselves is a hypocrite.

I must agree. Some people forget how they started.


Yeah, I don't think that person quoted can speak for anyone but herself, and her enormous attitude problem.

This is a major problem in the community with the elite.


IMO when I am out and about as well as many of us who go out in the public, for the most part people may think we are TS or in some cases people do not even know. I think her problem is she feel that TG/CD's are always trying to "pass" when we get a chance to dress and we can just not be in the gender that we present while dressed. I feel that view is very wrong as well as dangerous. Like I said many times when I am out I am adressed 99.9% of the time as a woman, I act like a woman and when out and about I have the same saftey concerns as a woman.

I think where she misses the mark is that many of us understand that publicly we are viewed as the gender we present at that time. Many of us who on line identify ourselves as TG/CD have actual state ID's with a female photo. I wish I did:) However she fails to realize that many travel cross country as the opposite gender and a few have began living 24/7 and do not have the desire to have SRS. My question is would she allow a 24/7 non SRS to be on her show? they have the same issues as a SRS-TS would have. I know that their are many Stealth TS's out and about and many of hem are the ones who disappeared from the on line world years ago and they did it for privacy issues and one that I am thinking about is from the site "Classy Kelli" she has gone stealth but hat is from the on line world.

Thats my :2c:

[Sheila]

I may be way off base here, totally wrong, and manage to upset TS, CD er, M2F & F2m all at one go ............. would love to say that would be new for me but unfortunately I doubt it :doh:

Many TS (please note the use of the word MANY) have begun the road to transition believing themselves or perhaps wanting to believe themselves as "just" a CDER, only to later down the road admit to being TS (M2F or F2M), and were quite willing to be included under the GLBT flag at the time & reap any benefits however small from being under the umbrella of being TG ......... seems a shame to reach the other end, and knock the same group as has helped to support them on their journey & to bite the hand of those who have fed them with support :sad:

As a GG (yes I know this does not qualify me in any way shape or form to understand what TS have to go through to get where they are going), it saddens me to see such fighting in the community, who although they may have widely different needs and end goals should be closer to understanding each other, there are many TS who from what I have read here and on other sites who will remain seen to be CDERS, for personal reasons, be they family concerns, financial constraints etc and who will never ever be able to achieve what they know themselves to be deep inside TS............ surely there voice has the right to be heard as well ........... they are after all TS

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Thank you, Sheila, you said it perfectly.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[TGMarla]

Wow. So much pain and anger. And this particular TS would not want to share any forum that caters to anyone except people who are exactly like she is. Kinda sounds like the KKK when you boil it down to gravy. So many here have made excellent points on all sides of the argument. The Franklin quote is very appropriate in retrospect, as is the Martin Luther King reference. As near as I can tell, we would not have a situation where any one group was speaking for another. It is more of a situation where one group was providing a conduit for other groups to speak for themselves, and that's not a bad thing.

I have a niece who several years ago went Goth for a stretch of time. When we asked why she was dressed the way she was, her answer was, "I'm Goth; you wouldn't understand." And this is nothing more than a cop-out answer, stated so that she didn't have to explain herself to others who really didn't understand the concept.

If this particular TS thinks for one moment that I (and others like me) don't understand the concept or the reality, I beg to differ. First off, how many TS persons really understand the reality of what they are doing until that reality hits them full on? There are many of us who are pigeon-holed by the TS community as mere crossdressers, while the reality is that many of us have dealt with our own TS issues our entire lives. A constant wrestling match every day of our existence, yet she would state that we have no basis for understanding any of her issues. That is narrow, and shows a complete detachment from reality.

There are a LOT of us out here that have all the same feelings, thoughts, wants, desires, and dreams that a transitioning TS has, but for what ever reason, we will never actually do it. That she some how assumes that my concerns have no relevance to the TS world, and that this theoretical talk show should ignore me out of hand simply because I'm not going to get an operation is just somehow deeply offensive.

Again, she says something that could have come straight from my own thoughts. I have chosen a path that does not allow for a surgical solution. That's all. And as for me, I'd not be throwing away the help and support of other groups, simply because they don't walk in the same footsteps that I did. I honor those who have fully transitioned, thinking "There but for the grace of God, go I." I don't look on them with derision, but with understanding of why they took the path they did. It hurts to think that TS persons, as a whole, do not feel the same way about me.

[suchacutie]

In this space, after reading all the posts to this point, I responded inappropriately to what I felt at the time was a personal attack, one trivializing my deep struggle with my lifestyle. Instead of responding directly to that perceived attack, I lashed out in general, and for that I am deeply sorry and quite depressed. Had I stopped for a moment to think before posting, I would not have posted in that way, and I do wish Tamara had pulled the post immediately to minimize my embarassment.

Rereading these posts now, I find myself simply saddened that there is anyone who has gone through the kinds of issues we are struggling with every day can't be supportive. We are, after all, in a precarious position vis a vis the bulk of society at the moment, and any strife internally can only serve to further those negative voices from outside.

Again, my sincere apologies.

[Lisa Golightly]

ok ok. I've tried to be polite here constantly, but enough is enough.

See I agree with the first paragraph.... and applaud you.

The second is unhelpful and disrespectful... What did you achieve with that? Hope you got something out of upsetting me... I ain't done nothing. :(

[PaulaJaneThomas]

So, any of you reading this thinks you are so much better than I am because you are somehow "more" of a woman, check your chromosomes sister! No matter what you do, you are MALE! Your chromosomes dictate what you are, whether you like it or not, and there is nothing, I repeat NOTHING you can do about it!

Insensitive to say the least.

[TGMarla]

And another thing: What about those transexuals who come to their decisions to transition later in life, like the case of Alexus Sheppard (http://web.mac.com/alexus309/AlexusSheppard/Welcome.html)? She didn't even try on women's attire until well into adult life. Had no idea that she would ever be transexual. Hmmm....no birth defect there. So if it's not a birth defect, does she have the right to even interact with "real" transexuals? You know, the "birth defectors"?

Just throwing gas on the fire. Just stirring the pot. :stirthepot:

[Melissa A.]

check your chromosomes sister! No matter what you do, you are MALE! Your chromosomes dictate what you are, whether you like it or not, and there is nothing, I repeat NOTHING you can do about it

I thought this disscussion, despite the obvious landmines, just might be somewhat worthwhile. Until I read this. I'd expect a statement like this from many places and people, but not here. Your anger has revealed an ignorance that is stunning.
You're no better than the yahoo's who would see me fired, thrown out of my home, and denied the use of any public facilities because of my "chromosomes". As a matter of fact, you are making one of their arguements. And the thing is, you oughtta know better. One would think, anyway. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

[~Kelly~]

ok ok. I've tried to be polite here constantly, but enough is enough.

I also have tried to be polite here as well.


....check your chromosomes sister! No matter what you do, you are MALE! Your chromosomes dictate what you are, whether you like it or not, and there is nothing, I repeat NOTHING you can do about it!

This is just plain rude and completely disrespectful. The only purpose of writing this was out of hate. If the message is, "can't we all get along and work together" then this completely nullified that message. I will assume, like the original subject of the post who took her view to a bit of an extreme, that this view also would be considered an extreme view compared to many on this forum. I have faith in the decency of those here. Please show me that it is not ill-placed.

[Gerard]

Now there is a word that might just get a response. Calling TS's and CD's deviants. My initial reaction was who she calling deviant as it conjures up people that do things that you should never do........I think you know who I am talking about.

But Deviant seem a valid word to describe us if you take its description. :eek:

Deviant: Differing from a norm or from the accepted standards of a society.

So yes we are all deviants.

Xx Vicky xX
I'm not a native speaker, so I might not be aware of some of the reactions it might conjure up. What I meant was just "behaviour differing from the accepted norm or form in a society".

[Wen4cd]

Tina, I can understand the feeling behind such a sentiment, especially in reaction to the original quoted piece.

I hear it as: "So, you want to look down on me and call me a subhuman deviant? Well remember, I could just as easily call you a deluded self-hater. It doesn't feel too good to have your identity kicked out from under your feet, does it? Think about how you make others feel before you open your mouth next time."

At least that's what I think you're saying. It's a natural reaction to an un-asked-for slap like the original quote delivered.

I think the old, porverbial way of saying it is "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."

The original quote was from an embittered, miserable person who threw a lot of stones, and forgot that we all live in glass houses in one way or another, and I understand your reaction was to that person, and others who may choose to share the same snotty view.

I hope others here understand you weren't talking to them, or their whole 'community.' I think only a small number are as obnoxious in attitude as the person quoted in the OP.

At least, I hope so. :O Because it actually would be better if we all got along.

[Gerard]

Acknowledging that transsexuality is different than crossdressing is not elitism, we are simply different. I don't want a crossdresser speaking for me because they haven't a clue what being a transsexual is, just as I don't fully understand crossdressers.

The person quoted in the original piece may be a bit over-vehement in her words, but I agree with it in spirit.
I don't agree with this.

I'd like to try and have a honest discussion about this. If we can't have one here, then were can we? I'm not trying to offend anyone, I'd just like a real discussion, to learn more about myself and others. I will try to put words to my thoughts and feelings, please bear with me.

In the past I have often wondered if I was transexual. I have since then learned I am not. At least not in the sense that I can't live with myself as a male, and would do anything to become female. To that extent I agree that I am different from a transsexual.

It does not mean that I just want to dress in female clothes, and have never desired to be a woman. Currently I think that it was for the wrong reasons and it's not really what I desire, but part of why I am here is to discover who I really am and what my desires really are. It's why I value discussions like this.

I also know from this forum and personal experience, that some people start out as crossdressers, and then later in life, as the body chemistry changes, end up wanting to transition and end up leading a much happier rest of their life as the opposite sex afterwards. There is a grey area somewhere in between.

Even those that are clearly on one side of the CD/TS line, still share a lot of experiences in the taboos they break and things they go though and desire. Even if they not fully understand each other, they can still be allies.

What I learned over the past months/years is that for all the confusion, I identify as male, just not with some of the secondary characteristics that our culture has associated with that. Coming to understand that, I think has also given me a deeper insight into what identity and gender identity is in general.
I now understand that no matter how you look, deep down most people identify themselves as either male or female. A few on this forum might even fall outside of that.
As such I do think that I can understand that someone identifies themselves as either male or female, even if they are born with different physical characteristics. Maybe not completely, but I do think I understand more than most other people.

I am going trough a process, where I have questioned both my sex and my gender and have been unhappy with both. But unlike a transexual, my journey seems to be leading me back to finding a male core in myself, where if I had been transsexual, I would have ended up finding a female core. I also understand that if I had been transsexual, it usually would probably have been much clearer from the start. Still there are examples both on this forum and that I know in my real life, where it took people decades to really figure out who they were and fully transition.

Having found my male self, I think I have a much clearer idea of what it means and feels like to identify as male or female. I do understand that how our bodies look has little to do with it, it doesn't change the identity. Changing the body does change the feeling of being right and belonging though and it helps in making others accept and understand who we are too.

In a sense one of the key differences between the types of transgender feelings and behaviour, and transsexual feelings, is that in the case of a transsexual there is no confusion, no grey area as to where you belong and want to be. I can and do see where that separates transsexuals from "gender-confused" (for lack of a better term).

What I try to say, is that by being able to articulate what I am and what I am not, I do show that I have some insight into what I'm talking about. By understanding myself better, I also have gained some understanding of those that are different from myself. It is about identity and who you really are.

I'm struggling to put the right words to what I feel, please don't get offended and try to understand what I'm trying to say.

[Anna the Dub]

So, any of you reading this thinks you are so much better than I am because you are somehow "more" of a woman, check your chromosomes sister! No matter what you do, you are MALE! Your chromosomes dictate what you are, whether you like it or not, and there is nothing, I repeat NOTHING you can do about it!

I didn't partake in this argument at all. Until now. For some reason, you have decided to insult me and all of my TS sisters. I don't know why, I haven't insulted you or other crossdressers at all. You statement above would not look out of place in some right wing nutjobs manifesto. I hope you are proud of yourself.

[Tamara Croft]

So, any of you reading this thinks you are so much better than I am because you are somehow "more" of a woman, check your chromosomes sister! No matter what you do, you are MALE! Your chromosomes dictate what you are, whether you like it or not, and there is nothing, I repeat NOTHING you can do about it!I debated leaving this up or deleting it.. I decided to leave it and tell you what a rude bitch you are. HOW DARE YOU insult my TS sisters on this board!!! If chromosomes dictate what you are, you are most certainly an ASS!!! I thought the original quote that started this thread was bad enough, but to read this, I'm seeing that she might just have a damn point. I wouldn't want you speaking on behalf of ANYONE, most certainly not my partner who is a crossdresser, because you are embarrassing to say the least.... wow...

And if you think that is rude... you've heard NOTHING yet... ignorant ignoramous!!!

[kay_jessica]

.........................

So, any of you reading this thinks you are so much better than I am because you are somehow "more" of a woman, check your chromosomes sister! No matter what you do, you are MALE! Your chromosomes dictate what you are, whether you like it or not, and there is nothing, I repeat NOTHING you can do about it!

Tina part of the time, and proud of it!!!

Well done Tine, you have well and truly P****d off a significant portion of this site.

Dissapointedly


Kay

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Wow. Okay, I am not rushing to Tina's defense, she must speak for herself and either own or apologize for what she said. All I want to say is that we all sometimes express ourselves badly when emotions are running high, and this has been an extremely emotional thread with so much depth of pain and anger for so many of us. As I said, I can't speak for her and would never presume to put words in her mouth or anyone else's, all I can say is that I don't think she purposely intended to insult and wound so many in the group with what she said. I'm not defending her choice of words at all and think they are wrong and hurtful but she deserves the benefit of the doubt and to be heard.

Hugs...-Joni Mari

[Kaitlyn Michele]

oops

suchacutie

You have pretty much summed up why we are leery of letting others define us

Your incredible ignorance does a much better job of it than the obnoxious quote that was used to start this thread..

thank you

in fact, i still don't understand why the original poster even started the thread....what was the point other than to gratuitously bash ts folks?...

[Jenny Brown]

I debated leaving this up or deleting it.. I decided to leave it and tell you what a rude bitch you are. HOW DARE YOU insult my TS sisters on this board!!! If chromosomes dictate what you are, you are most certainly an ASS!!! I thought the original quote that started this thread was bad enough, but to read this, I'm seeing that she might just have a damn point. I wouldn't want you speaking on behalf of ANYONE, most certainly not my partner who is a crossdresser, because you are embarrassing to say the least.... wow...
And if you think that is rude... you've heard NOTHING yet... ignorant ignoramous!!!
Now that was FIERCE...:eek:

[Deb The Brunette]

Christine, no one is denegrating It is just a fact....For example....If you are not transitioned, do you face the same employment issues that a post op transsexual does when looking for work? No, you show up in drab and no one knows what is in your heart....This is all we are trying to say.... :doh:



Sorry I think I must have misread this !!!!!



.

[Joan Merrie]

I debated leaving this up or deleting it.. I decided to leave it and tell you what a rude bitch you are. HOW DARE YOU insult my TS sisters on this board!!! If chromosomes dictate what you are, you are most certainly an ASS!!! I thought the original quote that started this thread was bad enough, but to read this, I'm seeing that she might just have a damn point. I wouldn't want you speaking on behalf of ANYONE, most certainly not my partner who is a crossdresser, because you are embarrassing to say the least.... wow...

And if you think that is rude... you've heard NOTHING yet... ignorant ignoramous!!!

THANK YOU Tamara.:iagree::yrtw:

[Lisa Golightly]

Christine, no one is denegrating anyone....If you are not transitioned, do you face the same employment issues that a post op transsexual does when looking for work? No, you show up in drab and no one knows what is in your heart....This is all we are trying to say....:doh:


Sorry I think I must have misread this !!!!!

I kind of feel I ought to expand on my partner's comment... See she's a 24/7 girl and does go to interviews and works as Debs... So in her life she's met equal if not worse prejudice to any TS who cares to mention it.

I'm a TS... She's a CD and I have nothing but absolute love and admiration for the person she is... for the life she has carved for herself. I can never quite understand why our respective sisters find it so hard to respect one another... Maybe we're the odd ones...

If we are I'm content.

Lisa x

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Thank you, Lisa.

Okay, here I go traipsing out into the minefield again with my blindfold on, and my cane, and wearing my swimfins. This is going to sound awfully stupid and naive and I am so sorry if it offends anyone or gets me flamed. But, what the hell, here goes.

We all have it tough, all of us, all of us who are here in this group, TG's, GG's, SO's, M2F, F2M, TS's who are post-op, pre-op, non-op, op-op-de-bepop, those who are living 24/7, those who want to but can't, those who have no clue at all who they are and where they're going, why in the hell can't we cut each other some slack and not assume the worst possible meaning from everything that is said? Why can't we try to be just a little effin bit kinder to one another? I mean, WTF! This is a support group, isn't it? Isn't it? Did I miss a disclaimer somewhere? Damn. Can we not assume the very worst motivation for every word that is said...except for the very first post, which was just mean and stupid. Crap.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[SirTrey]

Lisa, what I meant by that comment was that it's not right to call us elitist when we say that we have DIFFERENT struggles (those of us who are out there living or working in the gender opposite of that of our birth) than people who have their birth gender to default to when it gets tough...If your partner is out there working and doing that, she is obviously not who I was talking about, regardless of how they identify....To Me, it's not about how you identify, it's about what you face on a daily basis and how you live your life...And I also wasn't saying one is better than the other, we are just different and our problems have some similarities, but also, some differences....I will never get how it is elitist to say that....It's not....It's just reality....and we don't think we are special....or better.....I have no idea why everyone reading and posting in this thread is getting so upset....:eek:

[Deborah Jane]

We all have it tough, all of us, all of us who are here in this group, TG's, GG's, SO's, M2F, F2M, TS's who are post-op, pre-op, non-op, op-op-de-bepop, those who are living 24/7, those who want to but can't, those who have no clue at all who they are and where they're going, why in the hell can't we cut each other some slack and not assume the worst possible meaning from everything that is said? Why can't we try to be just a little effin bit kinder to one another? I mean, WTF! This is a support group, isn't it? Isn't it? Did I miss a disclaimer somewhere? Damn. Can we not assume the very worst motivation for every word that is said...except for the very first post, which was just mean and stupid. Crap.

Hugs...Joni Mari

Well said Joni Mari, my thoughts exactly

[shesadvl]

I think people should do and be what they desire to do and be.



oi totally agree with yer wens a quotation oi always have had:

be yourself not what or whom others wish you to be because everyone else is taken.:devil:

WTG tamara... upon reading the post far as oi know we dont live in a society where someone speaks for all of us isnt that called a dictatorship....lol... we dun want this no matter what we are in life, hell no.:battingeyelashes:

something I wrote in another post:
we are people and part of the human race...ftms mtfs the lot,... it comes down to our "Choices" in life that make "us" happy who we are... I guess reading in the forum some are not so happy with the way things are, wouldnt it be nice if Society and those that we live with accept us for how and who we are, the "Exceptional" few that do accept things as they are,.. are those like myself take people as they find them.....
but we certainly dont speak for them.:battingeyelashes:

[Fab Karen]

I kind of feel I ought to expand on my partner's comment... See she's a 24/7 girl and does go to interviews and works as Debs... So in her life she's met equal if not worse prejudice to any TS who cares to mention it.

I'm a TS... She's a CD and I have nothing but absolute love and admiration for the person she is... for the life she has carved for herself. I can never quite understand why our respective sisters find it so hard to respect one another... Maybe we're the odd ones...

If we are I'm content.

Lisa x
I couldn't agree more. And in my personal experience, the majority of TS's I've met are sweet respectful people, just as I respect them. I don't think you're the odd ones.

[Christinedreamer]

From the original post and the ensuing diatribes, can someone recount exactly who was the CD who presumed to speak for all TS individuals and in what context?

Was their a discussion where some ne'er do well CD claimed to be an official spokesperson for the entire gender variant community to the exclusion of everyone else?

Please enlighten us here.

BTW may of us here are treated like Susan Boyle of the BGT show. From one appearnce then entire public makes a snap judgement about who and what we are, so yes even though I am a non op TG with strong TS feelings I am frequently denigrated simply for having the desires/needs that we do.

I have had very pleasant experiences as my alter ego however there have been as many that were not so memorable.

[TxKimberly]

Hmmm . . . so what have we established with this thread? We have proven that this appears to be a VERY touchy subject for the vast majority of us. Over all it both irritates and depresses the hell outta me.
The people on this forum range from all extremes - from those that that put on a corset and stockings for sexual gratification only, to those that have been convinced their entire lives that their body does not suit them. One would think that the one thing we might all be expected to share, would be an attitude of understanding and tolerance for others that do not conform to the norm. You would think that after a little introspection, we would all be inclined to cut others a bit of slack, to at least try to tolerate and understand each other.
So, if we can't tolerate and respect each other here in our own forum, what hope do we have that others will tolerate or respect us?
Yepper, kind of bummed . . .

[dawnmarrie1961]

Vicky, doesn't look like there is any wiggle room at all. Unfortunately so long as we continue to divide ourselves into different groups and sub-groups,all of which may have very legit reasons for existing,no clear voice will ever be heard. Only the deafening silence of disinformation will resonate the air waves.

A solution would be to first bring all these groups together to work on a common agenda. Learn to speak with one voice. Everybody benefits when they work together.


Be safe. Be smart.

Dawn Marrie

[Miranda09]

Hmmm . . . so what have we established with this thread? We have proven that this appears to be a VERY touchy subject for the vast majority of us. Over all it both irritates and depresses the hell outta me.
The people on this forum range from all extremes - from those that that put on a corset and stockings for sexual gratification only, to those that have been convinced their entire lives that their body does not suit them. One would think that the one thing we might all be expected to share, would be an attitude of understanding and tolerance for others that do not conform to the norm. You would think that after a little introspection, we would all be inclined to cut others a bit of slack, to at least try to tolerate and understand each other.
So, if we can't tolerate and respect each other here in our own forum, what hope do we have that others will tolerate or respect us?
Yepper, kind of bummed . . .

:iagree:

[shesadvl]

Hmmm . . . so what have we established with this thread? We have proven that this appears to be a VERY touchy subject for the vast majority of us. Over all it both irritates and depresses the hell outta me.
The people on this forum range from all extremes - from those that that put on a corset and stockings for sexual gratification only, to those that have been convinced their entire lives that their body does not suit them. One would think that the one thing we might all be expected to share, would be an attitude of understanding and tolerance for others that do not conform to the norm. You would think that after a little introspection, we would all be inclined to cut others a bit of slack, to at least try to tolerate and understand each other.So, if we can't tolerate and respect each other here in our own forum, what hope do we have that others will tolerate or respect us?
Yepper, kind of bummed . . .

Kimberley this will always be a touchy subject, But ideally to have someone to run an airways programme on this subject, yes would be awesome...But, they would have to be understanding open minded and neutral to be able let everyone get their points/opinions across, to not necessarily control but to keep any heated inflamation in reply in a proper context, do you think there could be such a person, I cant answer that question either.

But for my years as an adult, also being a relatively new member of this forum, I do think common sense prevails, having such a place to come read everyones points and views, see the support, understanding different ones of you get whether you are CD,TS, mtf, ftm, has been a new learning curve to me no matter that I have transgendered friends, now in a relationship with one, I feel that there will always be people who are unhappy no matter what they are or do...
Also does not give any one person who may think they are HOLIER then THOU to act or speak on behalf of everyone, even if they are a TS, arrogant attitudes, (to me thats a very male orientated attitude: from that particular person mentioned, in the op (a dude with TUDE is attitude.) please dont take this in an offensive manner from me, its not meant to encase all , just in this instance, which will also bring them down with that type of manner and being, karma has a way of paying back believe me.....
they deserve a good kick in the arse..IMHO.

The only way I see to get society to accept things from all transgendered people is to show solidarity, be seen, live your lives as you wish to live, I am aware that there are a lot of members here that work tirelessly im sure in the different forums in their own areas for this very reason, in their own Communitys.

Here In new zealand where I live they have had annual "hero" parade Organised by the Gay rights movement, which include all the transgendered community,...the input and team work is amazing for the great end result. (notice teamwork all sections of society,) the amount of people that turn out to watch the parade and be involved is amazing, as its a Very Professional Parade, a lot better then some other guy who is known as the porn king here in NZ has his BOOBs on bikes down our main street,( if I wanna go see boobs whether its on a bike or not I would hire an adult movie or even go to a strip club, (this is done when they have what is known the Erotica exhibition show) opened up to the public,...
to me I would prefer the other, Hero Parade....shows a lot more taste...& professionalism that they can be involved in the local community....LOL

I know you are bummed out because of the lack of tolerance, between some of the members here, shows how different everyone is, just not in body etc but their own minds. Is that because they havent been educated into working towards (as a team) for a better acceptance of who they are, & in society or do they not want this end means, would be the question I would be asking.
As from what I have read most are looking for acceptance, by SOCIETY in the mainstream as well as SO's etc.?? Do they not want to work together for this end acceptance??.

you can please some of the people all the time, and all of the people some of the time, you can never please all the people all the time.

its ok to be bummed out but just makes you see those in a different light hey...:battingeyelashes:

EDIT: foot note
reading post no #81 by dawnmarie, solution would be to first bring all these groups together to work on a common agenda. Learn to speak with one voice. Everybody benefits when they work together.

:battingeyelashes:

Christine I just read what you have posted and yes as you say... safety in numbers...

I have just got this link to what used to be the Hero parade they now call it PRIDE.
http://www.qna.net.nz/New_Zealand/Events/Hero/

[Christinedreamer]

The gender/sexuality variant community has tried to band together with the support of many thousands who do not personally find themselves outside the accepted "norms" but none the less believe we have the right to happiness, only to find itself being torn assunder from within.

What is even sadder is that so many participating in the active dissolution cannot see how they will suffer as a result.

As the old adage goes, there is safety in numbers.

[suchacutie]

My sincere apologies to anyone I may have offended. As you can see, I was momentarily offended, upset, and felt incredibly degraded by the discussion as I read it.

I apologize for my outburst and and am saddened that I offended anyone. It is not my normal nature to do so.

We need very much to support each other and respect each other. Even if I felt disrespected, and I did, there was no need for the outburst.

[Lisa Golightly]

We need very much to support each other and respect each other. Even if I felt disrespected, and I did, there was no need for the outburst.

Thank you... *hug* :) xxx

[jennifer easton]

just found this thread, WHOA!! I thought we was one big happy family, you know sisters and all, all for one and one for, (Let me duck as the ball bat wissses over my head)

[Kaitlyn Michele]

That is big of you suchacutie and i truly appreciate you stepping up...
That was very classy...

I happen to agree with you that no one should ever say "just a crossdresser" or "just a panty fetish", etc..it's very hurtful



anyway....:Peace:

[~Kelly~]

My sincere apologies to anyone I may have offended. As you can see, I was momentarily offended, upset, and felt incredibly degraded by the discussion as I read it.

I apologize for my outburst and and am saddened that I offended anyone. It is not my normal nature to do so.

We need very much to support each other and respect each other. Even if I felt disrespected, and I did, there was no need for the outburst.

Thank you very much :love: I can totally understand the impulse to lash out when you feel attacked but it takes a very big person to apologize. Seeing as how the original post was not posted by the subject of the post, we can't necessarily expect any apologies or clarifications on that front (though there probably should be). With that said, thank you again, for your heartfelt apology and attempt to heal some of the divisions that have been occurring.

[Tamara Croft]

I apologize for my outburst and and am saddened that I offended anyone. It is not my normal nature to do so.Thank you for that, it is appreciated :)

[Joan Merrie]

My sincere apologies to anyone I may have offended. As you can see, I was momentarily offended, upset, and felt incredibly degraded by the discussion as I read it.

I apologize for my outburst and and am saddened that I offended anyone. It is not my normal nature to do so.

We need very much to support each other and respect each other. Even if I felt disrespected, and I did, there was no need for the outburst.

Thank you, your apology shows you have a big heart. :hugs::love:

[Anna the Dub]

My sincere apologies to anyone I may have offended. As you can see, I was momentarily offended, upset, and felt incredibly degraded by the discussion as I read it.

I apologize for my outburst and and am saddened that I offended anyone. It is not my normal nature to do so.


We all say things in the heat of the moment that we regret. It's done, forget about it.

[battybattybats]

The HBS'ers are a notorious hate-group. We go back a way, there are arguments between me and the 4 or 5 loud HBS spokespeople (they change their names a lot and often try to appear to be more numerous than they are) all over the net. As they especially like to go to LGBT blogs to drive a deliberate wedge between GLB and TG groups you'll often find them there blaming us for societies transphobia.

They were started by a TS in Spain iirc who is under investigation for threatening a TG advocate. They have ACTIVELY campained against TG Rights! There is also some evidence that they are connected with Dr Zucker and Blanchard's placing in the DSM revision!

In the comments of this article is one of the recent examples.. http://www.bilerico.com/2009/07/the_straight_guys_primer_on_gender_identity.php note how they act when they get what they say they 'want'.. in reality they want to spread hate, so when anyone recognises their human right to 'self-identify' as 'not-transgender' they ignore it and keep up the hate.

It's also worth pointing out that the essential claim of HBS is that it's a neurological variation from birth and that being GLB and being a CD are not. But being gay or lesbian also comes up in brain scans as different neurologically and the scientists who did the studies on TS actually say that they expect ALL forms of gender spectrum are variations of the same neurological variation!

These people have a poll to remove ALL transsexuals from the term Transgender... it's been sitting for ages now with only a small number of signiatures.

They are a small but very very vocal hate-group doing serious damage.

As for a talk-show... it's a good idea i think, if done well.
After all there are TG-hosted talk shows in Pakistan and India, TG tv hosts and tv celebriaties in Italy, Indonesia and more.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

My problem with the person quoted has more to do with their attitude than their message. I DO have a problem with their message, it's just that the attitude pisses me off MORE.

I don't care for the HBS message/philosophy at all, in part because of the vehemence and condescension it often comes with, which I've experienced myself. Being told I wasn't a "Real Transsexual™", and if I was that I'd do anything, ignore family concerns, even go into sex work to fund a transition.


Several people responding to this post managed to politely make the point that a transitioning TS has a different set of worries, needs, and issues than those of us that aren't going to transition.

I see CD's and TS's as cousins under the TG umbrella, members of the same genus, but not the same species. Related but different. Have some things in common, have other things not in common.


There are a LOT of us out here that have all the same feelings, thoughts, wants, desires, and dreams that a transitioning TS has, but for what ever reason, we will never actually do it.

Word!

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

[Sophie Lynne]

Kimberly just took the words from my mouth- most unsanitary. :D

This person thinks her s*** doesn't stink because she had some bits removed?

I say it must've been a lobotomy.

I am who I am and do what I do. That makes me no better or worse than you. If this person has a problem, then it is HER problem.

[catriona36]

:2c:With all the shots being fired about, I’m thinking I will stay in the closet where it is safest.
As I have a tendency to put my foot in my mouth, I’m taking my time doing this.
This seems to be a thread that I agree with and disagree to a large extent.
As a cd’er for “escapism” I can see it from both sides more or less..
The original post was quite disconcerting in the way the person quoted did not seem to want to be lumped in with anyone but her own specific kind, and to hell with the rest.
And that does not sit well with me one bit. As a former hunter (thanks coppers) we used to work together with other hunters no matter what or how they did what they do. No one was better than the other in any regards, as it should be here.

For my 2cents if there was to be a show on ”us” (as a group) all different yet all pretty much the same (at least in the same sinking boat) it should cover, “from start to finish”
As some one said earlier some tg/ts started as cd and some didn’t.
I don’t know for sure 100% that I will never be tg/ ts but for now I’m not. But should this exclude us from such a show?
No it shouldn’t.
Don’t take this wrong as I’m somewhat slow on the pickup. But didn’t all ts start as tg? (or visa versa) And some tg start as cd? There fore should any “network” discussion start from the beginning and cover aspects of all?

In my opinion no one is any better than anyone else in here.
Fair dinkum She (op’s original quote) reminded me of being in my old job, in regards to wanting to be treated by others differently even tho all from the same tree. In my case it was transport and under that tree the trailer drivers wanted to be treated differently from the rest of us just because they were different.
It’s wrong (mostly)

We are seen pretty much the same by “mainstream society”.
We are seen as, for the most parts, freaks.
So shouldn’t we stand side by side and be heard as one fighting for both?
I know the twu (transport workers union) fights for all transport drivers not just some.
We are the same we should fight side by side. If you don’t like the word fight, use “be heard” but you get the idea. Oh or better still stand and EDUCATE others together..

IF aliens attacked (yeah I know unlikely don’t tell me) would you like to fight as one or stand together and take a stand??????

I think I will leave the chromatical (mm no I don’t know if it’s a real word) alone tho I can kinda see where she came from, tho not agreeing with the way she said it.
I do apologize for lack of names here as I’m using ms word and cant see the orig post.

Any way Friday is soon to be over, so you all have a great weekend, be safe be happy
Cat
:love::drink::drink::drink::drink::hugs::drink:
ps. hey boss you just called to see if i wanted to work tonight (friday night)??? :tongueout:tongueout:tongueout no :heehee:

[urmilaaa2008]

Any talk show where participants generalise and tend to believe that their beliefs r common to common to evevery body in the group is bad. it is ok as long as te talk about themselves and their experiences and their reaction to it as an individual is fine

[Jeanna]

This hole thread reminds me of of politics- I'll keep my cd-ing as a my own individual expression thank you...Politically though,I think that maybe left of center.

[[alice]]

I personally feel like the quote in the original post was written by a very passionate member of the community, but at the same time a bit misguided. Maybe I'm the one being misguided, though. Who is to say? At the end of the day we're all victims of the human condition. Just as she illustrated in her post, she longs for members of her community to be accepted while alienating herself and "her kind" from any other form of gender queer subgroup.

It's all very good to be outspoken and passionate about your cause, but when your plight becomes all you see, it's hard to gain sympathy for your side. I myself hate labels, but to explain my situation I have to use them. So as a timid and terrified person who feels like she was born in the wrong body, let me say this - there are so many grey areas in our world that blur the lines from CD to TG to TS to whatever.

I crossdress. But I do it because it feels right to me and I feel natural that way. For a long time I was certain I just wanted to be a girl - but now I'm not so sure anymore. I've grown used to my condition. I've come to accept that I am a boy, and will probably always be one. I don't like it, but I can live with it, I suppose. Unless someone hands me a ridiculous sum of money, things will remain as they are for me.

I don't know what you'd call me and frankly I don't care. Does this person think I don't want to be accepted just as badly as she does? Does she think CDs and TS' don't incur the feeling of alienation and terror whenever they think about stepping outside in full dress?

Everyone has their own problems, and here, on the internet, we can be honest and let it all out anonymously. If only the real world were as understanding. I just don't understand what she means when she's saying "her kind" are trying to assimilate into "normal" society. As if the rest of us aren't?!

Unity does not begin with segregation.

[Kelsy]

Love,understanding, and acceptance can never come from self-centered snobish, elitism

Kelsy:sad:

[Angel.Marie76]

An interesting thread this is, having just stumbled upon it myself. (I haven't had as much time as of late to troll all the threads)

I will say first that I'm not usually the loud and outspoken type. I tend to keep to the shadows and/or would like to blend in and be happy with that. As I've been coming out of my closet, both mentally and physically, I might say that maybe one or two small parts of that initial, hateful, and separatist letter make some sense to me. I haven't personally felt that TS was a completely appropriate term for myself, so I've been identifying as TG. However, in communicating with professionals and other TS/TG/etc. folks, I've begun to see that the door I've passed through now does not want to swing backward and/or I don't wish it to. Just because I've made that minor determination, does that change me as I passed from room to hallway to room a completely different person? I would hope not. (and to clerify what I mean by that is simply my own definition, which could of course be argued seperately - I identified as TG because I felt like I wasn't sure if I want to / could go 'all the way' to a point where I would consider meeting part of my definition of TS - wanting to move forward with hormones and/or surgery. Every day I'm happier presenting as female, and right now the only things that slow me down from heading towards the aforementioned TS traits by my definition are 'reality-variables') Please, if we wish to argue my definitional terms, I'd be happy to toss that in another thread. :hugs:

One of the points that I roughly remember from 'the letter' was that /that/ particular TS would hope that they find a partner that could see them as female and not /just/ as a post-op TS. That, personally, is a pretty powerful statement that seems like it might have negative side effects, esp if concealment of the truth really is the intention. Hypothetically, if I were post-op, and felt I was a stunning representation of the female within, and a man approached me with blind abandon thereof, I would be overjoyed. Pardon me, certainly if I've mis-understood that statement, as is it perhaps cruel hope towards the partner to be, if they would accidentally 'find out' and have things go terribly wrong. I feel that being clear and open about your transition is best in all matters, but that is, of course, MHO.

Now, onto a slightly askew path - Personally, I've SEEN LGBTetc. public access shows, some of which are certainly more Trans-Oriented (see www.thetallgroup.org). These folks are extremely supportive of the whole spectrum /and/ just happens to be generally hosted by two transwomen. YAY! In just watching the July episode, one woman went on for a segment about her very obvious trans-related issue and relationships (which interestingly brought up the absolute hatred towards cowards who 'want' to have a relationship with TG/TS folks but want it completely deniable.. grr). However, as lead ups to that story, they went on about the various things happening in the region, upcoming legal issues, gender identity and so on and on. They most certainly were not TS-restricted, and didn't seem to want to be.

Lastly, as now a volunteer of a group of other Trans-folk and allies in support of two local Trans-specific events (a transwoman {who need not be full post-op} beauty pageant and a public Pride march) I can tell you that our group is most certainly NOT segregating of CD/TG/TS/intersex/etc., and hope to bring everyone as far out of their closets as they're willing to step to be out, be proud, and LIVE LIFE! Conversely, for myself as an example, while I may be happy coordinating the back end, I've stated clearly that I don't want to be in the limelight, and they're fine with that. I'll be marching in the parade, helping coordinate the events out in the public eye, but I won't be up on stage or in front of a camera.

My summary is simple, FLEXIBILITY. While I may someday have problems with groups I'm associated with opening their mouths to the public at large about about their trans-perspectives, I at least know that I am me, and that I will always work to let the people important to me know the truth, regardless of what any other people say or how they feel. If someone's going to stand on their soapbox and 'sing the song of the TS in the key of ME', fine, it's not me (or for me) though, and everyone has their right.

[Noxvictum]

The network will want their own writers, who suck. Then the host will be obviously fake, and piss me off because they would still look better in a dress than me. After the first few episodes, the guests would start making no sense, and have nothing to do with the show. Just another air head celebrity plugging their new movie. The band might not be so bad, but they'll hate the host and quit the next season. And somehow, someone, somewhere, will do something stupid, and make it even worse. That and TV sucks now a days anyway. All I need to find is a DVD collection of the original Ninja Turtles, and Ranma 1/2. Well, and NCIS.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Regardless of what turns out to be the "truth", and regardless of the "cause" of it all (which we may never know),

there are some big differences between the issues faced in the life of a transsexual and a crossdresser ..there shouldnt be anything inherently wrong or bad about this...these differences are significant whether that transsexual person transitions or not...and whether a crossdressing person is in the closet or not...even the most "in common" agendas diverge at some point.

To be so dogmatic and exclusive is just plain cutting your own nose off.

Even if you accept the original posts assertions, if she can't get the support of other LGBTI people (or however you define it), then how can she expect anyone else to care or support her agenda??...

I've worked in politics...its all about money...money money money...and more money..this is the way politicians make decisions and get votes..

and to be brutally honest...we need ALOT MORE votes, and transitioned/transitioning transsexual women are not fountains of cash, as well as being very small in number...

There are more folks that identify as crossdressers, and live as males..and tend to better keep their high paying job etc, and therefore, have a lot more to invest in political advances that help us all....(a generalization..don't kill me :o)

I've personally seen some of the anger towards LGB folks from T folks after the EDNA debacle last year..

as sad as it is that we got dumped under the bus in EDNA, and the reason is simple, we don't have the votes because we can't pay the bills..
(i guess you can tell i don't like politicians! :heehee:)

[battybattybats]

I've worked in politics...its all about money...money money money...and more money..this is the way politicians make decisions and get votes..

and to be brutally honest...we need ALOT MORE votes, and transitioned/transitioning transsexual women are not fountains of cash, as well as being very small in number...

There are more folks that identify as crossdressers, and live as males..and tend to better keep their high paying job etc, and therefore, have a lot more to invest in political advances that help us all....(a generalization..don't kill me :o)

I've personally seen some of the anger towards LGB folks from T folks after the EDNA debacle last year..

as sad as it is that we got dumped under the bus in EDNA, and the reason is simple, we don't have the votes because we can't pay the bills..
(i guess you can tell i don't like politicians! :heehee:)

It's vital for TG civil/human rights to get the CD community involved politically, especially in a non-partisan way.

[dawnmarrie1961]

Hello. INTERNET! Live streaming video feeds. You already have a media that can reach hundreds, thousands , millions of people around the globe. Once an agenda or consensus on content can be agreed to then a trial program could be put together and streamed over the Internet. If it is done right it would catch the interest of the mainstream media which may offer to carry it.

Just a thought.

Be safe. Be smart.

Dawn Marrie

[battybattybats]

Hello. INTERNET! Live streaming video feeds. You already have a media that can reach hundreds, thousands , millions of people around the globe. Once an agenda or consensus on content can be agreed to then a trial program could be put together and streamed over the Internet. If it is done right it would catch the interest of the mainstream media which may offer to carry it.

Just a thought.

Be safe. Be smart.

Dawn Marrie

There are a few net things already like Gendervision http://www.gendervision.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1 but the trouble with the net is people click on what they want to see.. its more interest-specific and so somewhat less likely to reach those most needing education.

[noeleena]

Hi...
Becaues I come from the other side of the world . i may have some thing that i would like to say . i hear what is being said .
For this kid i was on t v in n z the two main t v .s nation wide . the papers & the net . i was able by being asked . nothing to do with me . or even asking to do interviews . i was given the oppotunty .
I was on two t v stations cambell live & close up we had 3 interviews . the men in my case were very pro in how it was done . we just talked then had as close to a ? & answers. & we had many nice comments . the papers were done allso in a nice manner then other papers in n z . the net then took that up . unbeknown to me till i rang my friends in oz.e .. Oh wow . My heading was really changing from having lived as a male for 50 years then coming out full time as a woman .
I did not speak for others . nor would i gave of my self , as a transfemale living as a woman & what its like . now i can not say i have not grown or changed as some say they dont . really i.m just a andro woman ... thats taken time . & finding who i am . i have many friends around the world now . & one detail i know is we are all different . we live differently & so much . yet we can work to gether & help each other i dont see any one up or down . or better because of who we are . really if i bring it down i.m just a andro woman . no more no less just a pity some think differently . & that causes problems for others . i.m accepted here in n z . first i had help . i had people help me who i had never met . yet they went out of there way for me .. i dont have the background in the learning side of things . & yes you know of my dyslexia. yet i can stand in front of many people . & talk . what we need is real people . who have had a lot to go through to be who they are . yet be humble enough to remember were they came from . & may be remember who / what they were . i can tell you i.v been humbled because of the acceptance i.v had & still get . i cant say what would be the best for you . thats not for me . i just hope this may help . you can see my profile on google . use my name . hope you like it . if you have not seen it . thank.s ...
...noeleena...

[emmlouise]

I am confused. Who has denied her the opportunity or right to speak. I thought that in the US as the UK, we have freedom of speech. What is wrong with abiding by simple rules:
1. Live and let live.
2. Do whatever ever you wish so long as it does not hurt others.

We must remember that change cannot be by force but by consent. Work with others to bring about change and respect, not fight with each other.