5 ground rules on "How to pass"

[Sejd]

First of all, if you want to pass, no matter how old you are, you have to:
Smile a lot, and be comfortable in who you are as a human being. No excuses are going to help you if you want to pass as a TG woman. Be confidant and bold. Smile at whoever is serving you and enjoy who you are. This is the big number ONE.
Thirdly:
Don't try and change your voice beyond what's reasonable. Yes, women have higher voices, but a lot of women have low voices also. Just try and sound naturally. The more you try to sound "Femme" the more other people will be suspicious.
That doesn't mean you should not practice a softer voice. Just don't over do it!

Secondly:
Your beard does not disappear because you shave. You HAVE to start Laser or electrolysis.
No matter how often you shave, if you don't remove the black hairs, it will tell on you.
Thirdly:
You have to learn how to move like a woman.
A woman moves from her hips and not from her shoulders. If you are dressed like a woman but walk like a sailor, you won't pass.

Fourth:
Your hair!!!! - Most TG's that I know thinks (and I used to think so myself) that Long flowing hair is what a woman looks like. WRONG! If you were born a woman and is under 22 years old, Maybe! but try and look around and see what women your age looks like. This is a total give away. You MUST learn to have the haircut of your age. For most women over 50 it is short!!! GET IT! putting your hair in pig tails is definitely a mistake since only 12 year old girls wear Pig Tails.

Fift! Wear clothes which reflects your age! Look at what 50 year old women wears if that's your age. Look at their shoes, their hand bags and their outfits.
Forget about the illusions you have about what you should have looked like when you were younger. Dress age appropriately.
If you can follow these simple 5 rules, I think you will experience a great relief and joy of being who you are.
Good luck
Sejd

[Shikyo]

First of all, if you want to pass, no matter how old you are, you have to:
Smile a lot, and be comfortable in who you are as a human being. No excuses are going to help you if you want to pass as a TG woman. Be confidant and bold. Smile at whoever is serving you and enjoy who you are. This is the big number ONE.

Smiling is over rated. There really isn't a need to smile all the time or look happy all the time to pass as a girl. Just being confident will bring you a lot more than just smiling. Being generally happy looking, enjoying your life will bring more than just smiling.


Thirdly:
Don't try and change your voice beyond what's reasonable. Yes, women have higher voices, but a lot of women have low voices also. Just try and sound naturally. The more you try to sound "Femme" the more other people will be suspicious.
That doesn't mean you should not practice a softer voice. Just don't over do it!

There are many voices, there are many girls with deep voices there are some guys with high voices. I don't think anyone is going to really make a decision of your sex based on voice alone. The only place where this would truly matter would be over phone or other means where you just can't see the other person whom you are talking to.

Over doing the voice change will not do any good either. There is a limit how much one can raise or deepen the voice without sounding fake.


Secondly:
Your beard does not disappear because you shave. You HAVE to start Laser or electrolysis.
No matter how often you shave, if you don't remove the black hairs, it will tell on you.

That's depends of the person. There are many guys who don't even have a beard shadow, even though their beard grows. Not all guys even have black beards.

Though I do agree, shaving won't make the hairs go away. But for some shaving will be more than enough, to keep the face looking smooth. It's just there preference do they want to use money to get them out for good, or do they wanna keep shaving for the rest of their life.


Thirdly:
You have to learn how to move like a woman.
A woman moves from her hips and not from her shoulders. If you are dressed like a woman but walk like a sailor, you won't pass.

This one I can agree fully. The body movements are just different between guys and girls, there is nothing we can do about. We also have a the disadvantage of usually having way smaller hips which makes the walking slightly harder for us.


Fourth:
Your hair!!!! - Most TG's that I know thinks (and I used to think so myself) that Long flowing hair is what a woman looks like. WRONG! If you were born a woman and is under 22 years old, Maybe! but try and look around and see what women your age looks like. This is a total give away. You MUST learn to have the haircut of your age. For most women over 50 it is short!!! GET IT! putting your hair in pig tails is definitely a mistake since only 12 year old girls wear Pig Tails.

Oh really? God, I gotta go tell my god-mother that she gotta cut her long beautiful hair because doesn't look her age. Jesus, the hair length has absolutely nothing to do with whether you pass or not. It's just the preference of the person. If you want to have long hair, keep long hair. If you want short hair have short hair. It doesn't matter. Girls can have both short and long hair no matter their age. It's more so what you do with your hair, not the length. There are so many ways to make your hair and not all of them will look nice on an older person, like the pig tails you mentioned.


Fift! Wear clothes which reflects your age! Look at what 50 year old women wears if that's your age. Look at their shoes, their hand bags and their outfits.
Forget about the illusions you have about what you should have looked like when you were younger. Dress age appropriately.
If you can follow these simple 5 rules, I think you will experience a great relief and joy of being who you are.
Good luck
Sejd

This one I can agree to as well. There are just some cloths that don't look good on older people.

I really don't think there are any universal rules for "passing" We are all different, we all have different kind of problems. What might be a problem for you, might not be a problem for me. So making up "rules" like this is non-sense. Something like this would be practical as a guide or help, but not as rules. You can't create rules like that that easily. As there are way too many factors that change depending of the person, the location and even the culture. What might not be common over here, would be common over there. It would have to be adjusted to fit the country and everything and as stating them as rules, it wouldn't work. But hey, maybe it's just me. Maybe there are more people looking for rules for passing than I can imagine, but I just can't think of any reason why someone would want to do that.

Just looking outside at all those girls, you can see so many different ways to behave yet they are all girls. So wouldn't these rule have to apply to them as well? What we gotta do is look at the people who are near as, the place where we live. Look at the way they behave, the way they talk etc. instead of looking up rules that might not even work for the place where you live.

All I'm saying, any kind of rules will not help you pass outside better. You have to find your true self. There is absolutely no reason to follow any rules of any sort to be yourself. What is the point of going from one side to the other side, if you still can't be your true self? There is nothing wrong in taking advice and hints to find your own style, but don't believe in them like they were the only right thing to do.

[GypsyKaren]

I wear whatever I want and what I like whether it's "age appropriate" or not because I dress for myself and not the Fashion Police, I wear my hair the way I want, including pigtails, because I'm only interested in "my look" and have no desire to hold up a picture to a stylist and say "make me look like this", and I experience a great relief and joy of being who I am every minute of every day, whether I pass or not.

There is only one rule...do whatever works for you to be happy. The day I start trying to act or look my age is the day I'll kill myself.

Karen :g1:

[Shikyo]

There is only one rule...do whatever works for you to be happy. The day I start trying to act or look my age is the day I'll kill myself.

Karen :g1:

A rule I can agree with 100%.

[Lisa Golightly]

Who lives to be a drone?

[crusadergirl]

I wear whatever I want and what I like whether it's "age appropriate" or not because I dress for myself and not the Fashion Police, I wear my hair the way I want, including pigtails, because I'm only interested in "my look" and have no desire to hold up a picture to a stylist and say "make me look like this", and I experience a great relief and joy of being who I am every minute of every day, whether I pass or not.

There is only one rule...do whatever works for you to be happy. The day I start trying to act or look my age is the day I'll kill myself.

Karen :g1:

I have to agree with Karen on this one. Minus the killing part.
I don't go by any rules on how to pass i just wear what i like its as simple as that. But thanks for the rules on how to pass anyways they were pretty good.,

[Mirani]

I NEVER worry about "passing".

If I am "seen" as a guy - as long as I am treated with respect, then it doesn't matter. And often I have no idea how I am perceived. We sometime worry too much and forget that most people are just getting on with their lives and dont see us at all.

I always used to "try my best" - but my SO has taught me that a bit of mascara and lipgloss and a brush through my hair with slacks T shirt NO FORMS! (just a "push up" bra) and flats, works too. How lovely in the summer heat not to be uncomfortable with sticky and sweaty forms.

When I "started" it was full makeup, never trousers, always forms, always heels - everything carefully and fully done.

I still dress "smartly" for work and going out somewhere special, but for popping out to the shops, even a trip to the cinema and at home - its mostly casual and carefree!

Amanda has taught me that I can be comfortable anywhere however I choose to dress and "passing" isn't the goal. Being comfortably me wherever I am is the goal.
I am more contented now than I have ever been.

I realise that as I am 24/7 I have a lot of freedom. I understand that if going "out" is rare or limited, then to "dress up" to the nines is desireable.

[Sharon]

Sharon's 5 Ground Rules for a happy you:

1 - Relax - be happy. Quit obsessing about what others may or may not be thinking if they notice you.
2 - Be yourself - otherwise, what's the point?
3 - Don't worry about other people's rules for anything;
4 - What you wear is less important than almost anything else in your life. Refer to Rule #1 point about being happy.
5 - There is no Rule #5, but if I am happy wearing pigtails then I am damn well wearing pigtails even if sorry-assed people don't like them or think them inappropriate because I am too old in their eyes.

[Sheila]

hope it's okay for me to input here ........... if not can one of the mods/admin delete it :D

Sejd as a GG I wear what I damn well want (well most of the time :D.......... wouldn't wear a string bikini to a funeral ......... only cos it ain't appropriate(actually /I wouldn't wear a string bikini full stop because I would not be comfortable doing so :heehee:)

Heck I had my hair in pigtails on many occasions until I got it cut short earlier this year and I am 51

Shoes, trust me if /i did not get Vertigo in 6" heels I would wear em :D .......... actually I just can't wear them comfortably because of my arthritis or I would :sad:

My voice varies in tone several times during the day depending on what I am doing, or how mad/happy/content I am ........... in general I have a deepish voice I think for a woman.

I actually wear clothes that are reasonable age appropriate for how I am feeling regardless of my actual age ............. actually I think aged for stops on labels after about 13 or 14 years of age, so after that it is up to the individual, again just this year thanks to Debs encouragement I wore my first ever basque ....... (didn't think they would do anything for me being a larger woman .. boy was I wrong :D), I now own three basques and enjoy wearing them:D:o.

Confidence is definitely the key, but that goes for man, woman, boy, or girl :)

[Maggie Kay]

I pass pretty well. Here is what I find important.
1) I do smile and make eye contact with women. NOT with men. I typically do have a constant slight smile as I know I look much nicer that way.

2) I wear just the minimum makeup. Some foundation to cover my beard on certain days but not always. My beard is red and gray (white actually) so it rarely shows and after so many years of HRT and now the orchi, it grows VERY slowly and is very fine. I use an eyebrow liner everyday and pluck my eyebrows. I think this is important. I use mascara but not everyday. Some times I use my eyeliner, on top lids only. I do wear lipstick.
When I am not going out, I don't wear any makeup.

3)My voice is passable even on the phone. It can be high pitched on some words but it doesn't seem to matter. Other women have this too. I work very hard on it using the Exceptional Voice CDs and a spectrum analyzer from Deep Stealth Productions.

4)I wear feminine clothes including jeans but not much different than my spouse. Both of us are nearing 60 so we dress alike and share clothes. The key here is not to choose the manlier styles and I ALWAYS wear a necklace often with matching dangle earrings on my pierced ears.
I wear flats and never wear heels. I'm 5' 9" so any taller and I am in more of a risk of being read. I went to a TS support group meeting where a GG said that she has gone to large meetings of transsexuals. She said that the typical transwoman is tall and the typical transman is short. She is tall so she gets read as a transwoman but she is a spouse and a GG.

5)My hair is longish and because I have a full head of hair, it is an asset. It is one of my most attractive features. Women have told me that they would love to have my hair. It is only slightly gray at the temples. I typically keep it at just touching the shoulder.

I rarely worry about passing and act accordingly. There are some days that I don't feel confident which makes my outings more challenging but even on those days, I can count on being seen as female.

As for the beard, I have not had any treatment for that and while I would love to have it done, there simply isn't any money for that. I am just happy that I pass with what I have. Now if I were to have someone touch my face intimately or look closely like a dentist might, I will be read and I hate that. I shave in the shower with a wet/dry electric razor using soap so stubble only shows 24 hours later.

My hands are fully epilated and I wear a ladies ring on my right hand. I wear nail polish but mostly clear. Nails are kept short but neat.

I don't pad my bra and have a B cup but here I think I might need to have BA. Not for so much for passing but because on my large chest, bigger breasts would look more appropriate. My spouse thinks that they are too small and I risk being read. But they are growing still after the orchi so I have more time. The other thing of course is that my breasts ride high which older women don't have. It is a bit odd looking to have teenage breasts on an old body.

So that is my take on how to pass. It works partly for me because of my age. After 50 people don't pay as much attention to us, we are not sex objects anymore. Plus, women my age do look more masculine.

[denise413]

I believe the keys to passing are confidence and being yourself. Smiling never hurts as it is good to be pleasant but don't overdo it and be realistic. If you witness a car accident, you shouldn't be smiling. I've never really thought I was all that passable but other people have said I am. Part of building confidence includes not caring what other people think. If you don't care whether or not you pass and just dress and act how you feel, there is more of a chance of actually passing in public than if you instead were desperately trying to "act the part" and watching your every move. Sometimes people will second guess me where they don't know for sure "what I am." I have given myself away before but it is usally the voice that does it. I don't even think the voice makes it all that obvious but if I have to raise it or yell to get someone's attention, then obviously they know. Even if I don't pass, I really don't care. I have the right to go about my business without being bothered by people. Generally speaking, I don't run into a lot of trouble.

[Zenith]

I'm over 22 and ai likes my hair a lot...:straightface:

As for the age appropriate dress...most certainly....wait...:eek:...don't look at my avatar...:doh:

[Kimberly Marie Kelly]

And not listen to what others want you to be. :battingeyelashes: Kim

[Sejd]

Interesting responses. Like fireworks on July 4th! It's always a good thing to exchange views I think. Blessings to you all. :0)
Sejd

[Emily01]

this is just another one of those topics that don't lend themselves to bullet points and short quips isn't it?


no, why not?
speak or hold your piece
or should that be "and/or"
i didn't mean that the way it might have sounded, lol
yes i did too


fun to read though, thanks!

[Violetgray]

I wear whatever I want and what I like whether it's "age appropriate" or not because I dress for myself and not the Fashion Police, I wear my hair the way I want, including pigtails, because I'm only interested in "my look" and have no desire to hold up a picture to a stylist and say "make me look like this", and I experience a great relief and joy of being who I am every minute of every day, whether I pass or not.

There is only one rule...do whatever works for you to be happy. The day I start trying to act or look my age is the day I'll kill myself.

Karen :g1:


I NEVER worry about "passing".



If you don't care whether pass or not as long as you are allowed to be who you are, good for you. Completely understandable. I'm sure you are quite happy to live that way, and I am happy for you.

However,

This is in no way shape or form relevant to the original post. Too often a "How to pass" thread turns into a "Whether we should try pass." thread.

[Melissa A.]

I'm gonna be 50 on Tuesday. My hair is past the bottom of my shoulders. I like it that way, and I think I look ok with longish hair. Look at my avatar. Should I have cut my hair above my ears just because I'm no longer 22?? C'mon. That's just silly. A person does what works for them.

I'm out in the world every day and I don't give a rat's rear end about "passing". Now, that is different from wanting to be attractive and look nice. Who doesn't want that? I already walk like a woman, it's come naturally since the beginning of the CD years, way back when.

I smile when the situation warrants it. I live in New York City, and believe me, women here don't go around smiling at every guy they walk past! If someone gives me a smile, I will, as well. If someone stares at me like I have 3 heads, I will ask, "can I help you?". Here's the thing-with all requisite and realistic modesty, I know I look ok, and that anyone not paying attention probably isn't gonna pick up on me-But if you are paying attention, or I have to talk to you(another thing I really dont care about) you'd have to be a certifiable moron not to realise I'm trans. And ya know what? I don't give a damn. After decades of being unhappy, frustrated, and uncomfortable in my own skin, I'm happy. I'm a woman living in NYC, where I grew up. long ago(just got back after 30+ years). Sometimes I have to pinch myself, I'm so surprised and thrilled at the way things have turned out. Why would I care about something as insignifigant as "pasing"? I'm comfortable, happy, and that breeds the "confidence" everyone talks about, I guess. I don't question any of it too much. I'm here. I'm who I am. I'm glad. period.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

[Melissa A.]

However,

This is in no way shape or form relevant to the original post. Too often a "How to pass" thread turns into a "Whether we should try pass." thread.

Of course it does. A transsexual's goal(and this IS a transsexual section of the forum), I assume, is to be who they are, everywhere. There's a difference between wanting to look nice, and worrying about some ground rules for passing. If that's what you spend your time worrying about, You're making it more difficult for yourself. So yes, of course it does.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

[GypsyKaren]

If you don't care whether pass or not as long as you are allowed to be who you are, good for you. Completely understandable. I'm sure you are quite happy to live that way, and I am happy for you.

However,

This is in no way shape or form relevant to the original post. Too often a "How to pass" thread turns into a "Whether we should try pass." thread.

Actually, what you've said has nothing to do with the post, and I'll ask for volunteers if I ever decide to form the Thread Police, till then you can join in the discussion or stay out.

Karen

[pamela_a]

I'm gonna be 50 on Tuesday.To begin.. early happy birthday Melissa :hugs:

As for the rest of your post Melissa, you took most of the words out of my mouth, except for the living in NY part.

I'm who I am and I wear what I think and hope looks good on me. I don't care if people know I'm trans, and at 6'5" it's more of a challenge. What I care most about is that I'm happy with how I look (well, at least as much as any woman is happy with her looks) and that I'm treated like any other person.

I'm confident in who I am. I know I don't "pass" but then I don't care. I know I probably never going to pass. My goal is to just blend in with everyone else: nothing more, nothing less.

-Pam-

[Shikyo]

Of course it does. A transsexual's goal(and this IS a transsexual section of the forum), I assume, is to be who they are, everywhere. There's a difference between wanting to look nice, and worrying about some ground rules for passing. If that's what you spend your time worrying about, You're making it more difficult for yourself. So yes, of course it does.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

I couldn't have said it better myself. Personally, I don't think there is a transsexual that passes or doesn't pass. Oh no wait, they do pass as themselves.

[Super Amanda]

Not trying to start trouble, but IMO, the only "rules" of passing, or transitioning or anything this personal, should be made by oneself. Everyone's level of comfort is different, and everyone's general perception seems to differ as well, kinda like when kids look at clouds, and one says "that one looks like a horse!" and another says "No, it's a dragon!"

[MJ]

passing is overrated anyhow just yourself

[Jaclyn NM]

I guess that means my short skirt and 6 inch stiletto heels won't work. Damn!

[Sejd]

On the issue of "Passing" which by the way seems to be a very loaded topic, I can only say that all I have learned about being a woman and accessing female acceptable behavior, has been from my wonderful partner of 30 years who happens to be a genetic woman.
Clearly there is a lot of confusion when trans gender people male or female comes into their full selves. I wish for all of you that you find someone, like a partner or a good friend who can help you on the way to completeness. As much as I would like to agree with the statement that there are no rules and that we should just be free to do whatever we like, I just don't think that is true. I believer there are rules of the game on both side of the gender spectrum and the more we learn these rules, the better chance we have to become part of the group we want to belong to. It is not a matter of do's or dont's it is a matter of understanding, of fine tuning your persona. I am sure that this may be irellevant for some people who don't agree with me, but I am also sure that a lot of new arrivals would find it educational.
Wish you all a blessed weekend :-)
Sejd

[Melissa A.]

Hi Sejd,

You make a couple of valid points, and I am sorry I was so vehement in my response. The trials and changes many of us experience as we go through the evolution from who we were to who we are can't help but have a profound effect on someone. To be sure, many of us, at one time, probably worried alot about passing. But as I began to get more in touch with who I really am, and at the same time, experience the growing pains that go with getting out in the world, I started to realise that passing was the least important part of all of this. I admit that if I didn't care, even a little, I wouldn't put makeup on my face before I leave the house. However, the time I spend "primping", on an average day, is down to maybe 10 minutes. Ironically, a long time ago, when I was too afraid to step out of my front door, I spent ridiculous amounts of time getting things "just right"!! I find that pretty funny, now.

I think the point most of us may be trying to make, is that by the time a "newbie" has found her inner strength, and is making that leap to presenting female, she has probably moved way past the idea that passing has any real signifigance to her. Are some tips and pointers always a bit helpful? sure. And I have a closet full of clothing and a shelf full of makeup, moisturisers and other tools that help me look my best, so I guess it might be somewhat hypocritical of me to claim that there is no importance in appearance. But when most of us hear a word like "passing", along with the word "rules", it brings back memories of a time when many of us lacked the strength, or in more than a few cases, could even imagine that we would be where we are now. And in my opinion, the most important thing someone just getting out in the world can learn is that she's already beautiful and amazing just for the fact that she's found the strength to be who she is. I suppose there is a minimum amount of "maintenence" that almost all of us will always do. And that's ok-like I said before, there isn't anything wrong with wanting to look nice-but "passing", to a TS, as opposed to someone who isnt forced to live full-time, can come across as a pretty heavy-handed term.

I may not agree with everything you are saying, but I also didn't mean to shoot down your attempt to help. And I hope I didn't come across as too self-righteous or angry. If I did, I am very sorry.

Hugs,

Melissa:)

[Sejd]

Hi Melissa
that's quite all right, I know what it means to be fast on the trigger myself :-). And as you can see now, I wasn't really putting the question "should we pass" but rather wanted to give some pointers to some who are seeking help in being out in the world. I have been to gender conferences where, sad to say, a large number of individuals really could have benefitted from some healthy help and advice. I do not think there is only one way to be a woman, but I believe there are rules of engagement which should not be overlooked.
Kind regards and a big hug
Sejd

[Kaitlyn Michele]

There there...lol

I find this concept to be pretty interesting and relevant to us...

I feel great about the way I look relative to just one year ago, but
I have not reached the point yet of being totally comfortable, even happy with myself at all times...If I could somehow pass perfectly all the time, I most certainly would do it....Then I would be able to keep the maximum amount of privacy and of course enjoy the way I look even more..

Of course, I'm not in magic world and I try to fit in..I find that most of the time I am comfortable and then at times, not so comfortable...it's at these uncomfortable times that I think about passing...if i could stop thinking of it that way, then I'd always be comfortable!!! :doh:

not everyone copes with this the same way, we're so different in so many ways..

So, I dont think following rules is relevant to us at all.. its most interesting just to hear each others personal stories because I would guess that most of us did not reach a mature self loving place without alot of pain and alot of time..

I know I'm not completely there yet!! Finally moving in the right direction though

[Empress Lainie]

All I can say is how extremely LUCKY I am to have my build and body characteristics instead of the usual male ones. I thank my lucky stars every day that I am completely accepted as a woman all the time.

If I hadn't passed as a woman the first time I went out to KFC drag, I may have never had the courage to fully transition.
And how sad I would have been for that.

[aussie24tg]

I never worry about Passing now..I use to but I now pass 100% and now that my name change is done I don't have to worry about people looking at my credit card and noticing it had a male name..

As for the hips..I have always had a catwalk walk since I could remember I guess my body has a lil luck..I was born xxy and apart from male privates I basicly have female body shape, female hips, female hands, and female features on the face..

I had 3 laser hair removal sessions to my face and I obly shave once every 6 months as I do sometimes get small hairs that are blonde that also goes for body hair, I will though wanna get laser on my underarms and I would like it done on my privates but I'll have to ask my doctor first.

My voice Ive changed through singing as I was a good singer in school with a high voice and I just practise in the car while singing songs sung by female artists like Britney Spears.

[Jessinthesprings]

I think you make some very good points. especially dressing accoding to your age. There a many styles to fit your personality in every age group. Nothing will give you more attention if you are 50 and dressing like you are 16, and I don't think it is positive attention you will be reciving. That sort of thing goes for FABs as well.

Also I have to disagree with hair length. Look at all of the actresses in Hollywood that are approching 50 or beyond. Not all, but many have their hair below their shoulders, and around town you will see all sorts of lengths in every age. That being said longer the hair the more maintanece it requires, and many women (especially as they get older) don't want to deal with the hassel. But that ultimatly boils down to personal choice.

[blackenedbutterfly]

One thing I've noticed is that women tend to have higher eyebrows, so, slightly raising them from their normal position does work.

Along with having a lot more facial expressions and (to an extent) hand gestures to go along with your conversations.

These two really do help a lot :)

[Joan Merrie]

passing is overrated anyhow just yourself

Yea sis, I couldn't agree more. It took me, meeting ~Kelly~ to realise this. When I met her in person and saw how confident she was, I thought she is just living her life. A light bulb just lite up, A eureka moment if you will, I thought that's it just be your self, live your life.
THANK YOU KELLY.:hugs::love:

[~Kelly~]

It took me, meeting ~Kelly~ to realise this. When I met her in person and saw how confident she was, I thought she is just living her life. A light bulb just lite up, A eureka moment if you will, I thought that's it just be your self, live your life.
THANK YOU KELLY.:hugs::love:

AWWWWWWWWW Thanks hun! :hugs: :love:
There is no secret involved. Just be yourself. In the short time I have known you, your confidence has soared and that makes all the difference in the world. :)

[Karen564]

I know I'm not completely there yet!! Finally moving in the right direction though
I'm sure your doing just fine Michele..
I think most of us have those days where we hate the way we look and other days where you look in the mirror & go WOW!!! I look & feel GREAT!!! which gives us a confidence boost, but the most important thing is to just let your true self flow out, dont hold back anything!!!!!, you may be surprised how naturally girly you really are when your in the right mindset, and after a while it just becomes part of your everyday actions without even thinking about it..and that alone will make passing just a walk in the park:battingeyelashes:

I look at it as deprogramming our old male ways as we were forced to adhere to as males for so many years...so it just takes some time...
:hugs:

[Miranda09]

Alot of very interesting comments and advice on this thread, not all of which I agree with, but still very useful for me in refining and developing my look. For me, passing is a very important part of the experience, granted not the most important for many, but it is for me. Thanks for the thread Sejd. :)

[noeleena]

Hi...
When a group of women get to gether . say 18 each one is drressed differently . height . weight. manerisims. how they sit. walk . & really do every thing . not one in our group is the same at all i should know , i take many pics hey i did say women . gg.s i am the only one there who is different . do they care how do they see me . this what ever walking in the door same time ago a year really . i am just a part of thier / our group . at 62 . i dont pass yet they all accept me as a woman . fact is i rang our lady who runs it . she knows my back ground like every one does . she said . you are a woman be one just get out there & be a woman . oops .. oh .......okay ...help . you get the point .
i dont pass you may not. well you will be accepted . i was . & who the hell am i a nobody who am i trying to fool . well . i am just who i am . yes with all of my imperfections yet i have been accepted & i meet 1000.s of people . that is no boast . i never set out in any way shape or form to deceve or meet so many people this has happened only over the last 2 years & 3 months . no mean feate when you know where i come from . not the place. in side of me . then youll understand what i am saying . youll understand this . you bloody well can do it ...if i can & with out the looks like so many i know & have met . they just pass me by . yet i have been accepted . with out looks . & i can go any were . & meet people who are stranges . that could be the difference for many . hey it did not happen over night . 11 years for this .i cant think of a suitable word . certinly not what i was like those many years ago . you know when you face up to your self thats the start of the healing . thats why it took me so long .so so long . 50 . years . i.m a woman now. & no way going back ....EVER ...
...noeleena...

[Tyler_D]

Don't dress for your age, dress for your own personal style. Your clothes should not only flatter your body image but reflects what kind of person you are.

Nowadays not all women walks or act womanly. I've seen a lot of girls more masculine than me in acts and appearance.

So the whole "we must use cardinal rules to end up looking like generic and boring females" is a load of ****.

To each his own

[morgan pure]

I love this post. I've only read half the responses but have to say something.The first suggestions are all valid. Those of us who advocate being your own person are ignoring social demands.
Girls (like boys) live in a world that is defined by their society. Their weight restrictions are much more than mens'. Their dress rules are less. Passing is hard but can be done.
Only studying girl behavior will enable one to be a girl. Girls are acculturated very differently than we were. I taught nursery school many years ago. I once observed two 4-year-olds walking away from me with identical haircuts and identical clothes. It was obvious who was the girl and who was the boy.
Girls ARE taught to smile. Walk is critical. I'm not anywhere near going full time, but I've been called "Miss" by absentminded cashiers because of my gait. Make-up is the worst. Girls wear it, period. I'm putting that off until as long as I can. Electorlysis is the best suggestion. I have to start.
YES- dress for your age. I have to read Michelle.

[sherri52]

I agree with gypsykaren. We dress for ourselves. If I dress my age I just might start feeling my age and I definitly don't want to do that.

[GypsyKaren]

I'm supposed to base my wardrobe and hair style according to "social demands"? Bullshit. I don't tell anyone else how to look and I'll be damned if I'll ever allow it to happen to me, anyone concerned with "social demands" in my direction can kiss my size 7 (oops, I wear Juniors, I'll never pass now!) ass.

Karen :g1:

[Miranda09]

If we all followed rules, there'd be no individuality!!!

[Emma England]

I will say this.

YOU ARE PART OF SOCIETY!

That means you dress how you like.

Why should others dictate to you what clothes you can and can not wear?
Where is the fashion freedom in that?

There is no such thing as dress rules (no one has ever said that boys can't wear skirts or makeup). No one has ever explained to me what these rules are.

[Sejd]

Thanks Morgan. I hear you, I think that's how it is.

For your information Karen, this thread was meant for those out there who are interested in passing and not those who really don't care. I respect everyone and each of your opinions, but my suggestions was actually put out "in kind" and as a help for those who is struggling with the issue of passing. Not for those (as you want to express your allegiance to) who don't care!

[GypsyKaren]

Well, it is nice to have a member of the passing police her to tell all of us what we "have" to do in order to "experience a great relief and joy of being who you are", I've somehow managed to accomplish this despite the fact that I don't "GET IT!" about my hair because I wear pigtails like a 12 year old and I don't buy my clothes at the Grandma Department at Sears.

My whole key to success in life is never telling people what they have to do or should do about anything because I've found that worrying about myself is a full time job that others should consider getting into for themselves, the only thing I tell them is to be happy in whatever way works for them.

Karen :g1:

[Empress Lainie]

I am in total agreement with you, and if you want 12yr old girl pigtails you should wear them proudly.

My daughter who I was thrilled about finally commenting on my clothes and and actually giving me some good advice for the first time since my transition 2 years ago, thinks I shouldn't wear a headband, at least when I interview. She hasn't commented on my tiara which I dearly love especially with long hair.

She also commented that men engineers and others are scared of women's hats. She swears its true. She ought to know, she is an engineer.

When I was an employer my philosophy was like yours too Karen, I never TOLD them what to do always asked if they would do something. Made for much smoother relations in the workplace.

[morgan pure]

This is so great! Please let us bitch a little. I love the expressions "passing police." God help us all.

I've wanted to be a girl my whole life. I have noticed many differences in the male cultural education and the female.

Who would deny that male and female cultural expectations are different? Look at modern dress. My gg colleagues and friends show more cleavage than a hooker did in 1990. Male dress is still the baggy suit.

And here's a girl sentiment that my mother taught to my sisters: We ARE the softer sex. Looks matter, so look your best.

Personally, I want people to like me. And I know from experience that the better I look, the more disposed they are to give me as chance. I wish them well, and, thank God, even though I often look like a hurricane, they seem to get it. I certainly don't want to gross anyone out!

I mean-I want to make meeting me and interracting with me a pleasant experience, don't I? Well, then I should look as good as I can.

Morgan

[Alana Beaumont]

Well, as much as I appreciated a quick 5 steps to passing, I too am going to have to say that this was just a wee bit conformative (not a real word, but I'm using it anyway.). Trust me, if I tried to "dress my age" and wear my hair the way the other girls do (in comparison to my community), I'd be walking barefoot in torn up tie dye rags and dread locks.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

the correct word is conformativatational

:devil:

[Eileen]

The best rule is to be comfortable and confidant with your self. A girl can learn a lot by observing other girls, but in the end she may only want to adopt some or none of what others are doing. Be true and happy with ourselves. Once we are there life will be so much easier. We have all experienced a sadness from with. Now we can or are working towards an inner happines, that will bring us inner joy leading to comfort with ouselves. We are after all being who we truly are and once we are there everything else will pale in importance.

Eileen

[stacie]

Basically you don't want to wear something that is going to draw attention to youself and get a lot of laughs or even your ass kick. Other then this I wear what I want to. But I also learn not to post a list of what not to wear here beause "You will be crusified", lol.

P.S. About the hair thing, I have long hair and this is an outfit I worn for mothers day this year. I think I look pretty dam sexy and well dressed. But then again I am the fashion police lol.

[Michelle_Sullivan]

Passing.. is it overrated or not? I don't know. What I do know is I want to be able to go out as myself and be able to blend in society without anyone staring or making odd comments etc.. Do I succeed? Most days... however that doesn't mean I pass.

An interesting story to share about passing...

There is another member in this topic who has stated they pass 100% of the time, as they work as a male that's an interesting statement. The more interesting thing though is not what they do, but how others view them.

Disclaimer: the person I am referring to and I do not get on as they dated my partner behind my back then broke into my house amongst other issues, so I won't say who it is (especially as it doesn't matter to this thread or forum.)

Recently the member and I crossed paths at a "The Beat" (a local nightclub) and a couple of young girls (20 and 21) took quite an interest in me, and started playing up. This person as they don't like me decided to do their best to attract their affection and divert their attention away from me (presumably because the person thought I might chat them up as they were beautiful girls.) The person bought them at least one drink, shouted something at me to be "big" in front of them (a very male trait I might add) and followed them around for about an hour. The person went to the toilet, and the two girls hurriedly left the club.

About 20 minutes later I decided to go home, and on walking back to my car found to the two girls sitting in a doorway one of which was crying, so I stopped and asked what was wrong, could I help etc.. etc.. etc.. The first thing "R" said was, "is that freak with you?" Confused I asked her to explain, and she said, "Your friend the guy that reckons he's a girl" ....

I should stop this post there as the point is well made, but I will finish by saying "R" and "S" were all ok, "S" had had too much to drink at the races and was upset over something her boyfriend had said to her on the phone. I called a taxi for both of them and as far as I know they both got home ok. (I also corrected them in that that the person was no friend of mine.)

[morgan pure]

I've said this before and I'll say it again. We need another sex. I hang out in a very straight boat club. Almost everyone has seen my tits, yet I present as a male. Everyone-even the machoest of the males-still likes me. But they are a unique bunch of people.

(You Australians will understand this. You are all sailors or surfers, no? I was out in my little 24 ft. cruiser in 25-30 knot winds with no motor. Fetched the mooring on first try but the tall boy broke. I AM VERY SORE. I love Austrailians. For some reason a pile of them have shown up in NY. I've never met one that I didn't like.)

I would LOVE to pass.

The female form is part of my fetish. I want to bounce my tits on a runway.

M.

[jennjenn161616]

great advice! thanks!

[~amy]

When you look at a group of tgirls not on hormones or ffs, its clear that most don't pass 100%. What is important though is that one caries oneself with dignity when in femme. I've come to understand the importance of a simple smile in conveying to people that I am receptive to conversation and also keeps those that have ill intent at bay.

[Lorileah]

You all know me by now. Out of the five rules, I don't follow any. But I don't expect to blend in to society and not be noticed. It can take me an hour to get ready, I don't want to "pass" unnoticed. My walk is feminine when I wear 4" heels because otherwise I'll fall down and that corset makes me move my hips more. My voice is quieter because I am calmer, but I can still get loud. My clothes are sexy because I am not a suburban hausfrau, and it what I like and I am going OUT. I am over 6 feet tall in heels, I doubt that even in a prairie skirt and a bun I would pass. Some of us here put a lot less emphasis on being Stepford wives. Sometimes I wonder what women the people here are watching when they make these rules? I guess where I live women are just people, going about their lives as best they can, not trying to swing those hips, wearing the clothing they like, and just being.

[sempervirens]

We all get to decide for ourselves what's important in our lives. Some of us have always blended (passed), and will always blend. Or, some of us are beautiful, and will always be beautiful. They're no better, just in many ways, luckier. For some of us, one or both of those things matter; for some, peace of mind in ones own self is what really counts. To each their own.

In my limited opinion, if you do want to pass: take care of your facial hair, work on your voice, and be confident or at least not scared. People take cues not only on how we look and act as to whether we're TG, but on how to treat us. Don't be ashamed or afraid of who you are.

[GinnySmith]

I think all of want to be accepted as women, but part of the fun of being a gurl is you aren't uptight about all the rules. I'm only interested in other gurls, so the rules for passing within our group may not be the same.

[Empress Lainie]

I wear whatever I want and what I like whether it's "age appropriate" or not because I dress for myself and not the Fashion Police, I wear my hair the way I want, including pigtails, because I'm only interested in "my look" and have no desire to hold up a picture to a stylist and say "make me look like this", and I experience a great relief and joy of being who I am every minute of every day, whether I pass or not.

There is only one rule...do whatever works for you to be happy. The day I start trying to act or look my age is the day I'll kill myself.

Karen :g1:

I'm with you on that 125% Karen.

[Eriee]

Why smile all the time?! It attracts those really annoying people that won't shut up about shit no one cares about.

Some of us can't pass for males anymore... so why go out of your way to make yourself a cornball of estrogen?

[shirley1]

Passings overrated Imho, you don't know if you pass unless someone tells you otherwise, I have had the questions 'are you a man' so then I guess I am not passing well.

As for smiling well, could smile at the wrong person and cause problems, I tend not to look at people much, just get on with things, I recently caught some teenage girls eye, she stared me out, if looks could kill, did she read me, probably.

Its strange how you can walk around a busy place as no one even notices you, walk down a quite street and its the reverse, I used to think I would read more in a busy environment, but its totally the opposite.

They talk a lot here in Britain about blending in, dress appropriately for the time and the occasion, its true, the less you stand out the better, body movement obviously does play a part although women do walk and move differently, not all the same, confidence is a major factor, people do pick up on nervousness, the more confident you appear the less likely people are to notice you, I don't think it means you pass better, it just means people are less likely to notice you.

95 per cent people don't give a damn anyway, its just a few idiots out there, that like to intimidate just about anyone who is in anyway different.

[jenna_woods]

Very well done, every thing you say is true.

[denise413]

I agree on the part about smiling. Just be yourself. If you are in a good mood, then you will be smiling. If you are angry, you will be frowning. Otherwise, you'll be somewhere in between. Several people at clubs have asked me why I'm not smiling which is annoying because at the time they ask I am actually quite happy. Why people expect women to permenately have a smile affixed to their face makes no sense to me. It is usually men that seem to make such comments as well in my experience. Again, best medicine is to be yourself.

[morgan pure]

I have noticed that I smile more lately. I think it's the es. I'm happier for sure.

Children who are smiled at are happier and healthier.

[Empress Lainie]

I have had so many people that I knew before transition tell me that I look so much happier now, and smile all the time.

I certainly know I feel happier ALL the time.

As to how to pass: Act like the woman you are, of course it helps tremendously if you happen to have a lot of feminine features. I associate exclusively with women except on the dance floor (other mtf's included in that).

Stop talking like men do. Drop the cuss words. Use more feminine gestures with your hands. (Italians seem to come by it naturally anyway!) Use the language of women your age,
Now it would be very silly for me to say like as every other word.
REALLY learn how to walk like a woman, not a man. With me it was natural, and when I want to I can REALLY swing my hips.

If you dress like a man, people may think you are. I no longer have that fear anymore when I wear pants, it has never given me away.

Learn how to raise your voice pitch and make it your normal
voice, it isn't hard to do, at least enough to equal Anne Murray's range, which I found I had naturally.

Don't say anything loud, it lowers your pitch and makes you sound like a man!

That's some of my take on it as a stealth pre op TS.

:love:

[Fabiana.rj]

In my mind, passing is one the goals, just because I don't want people pointing or haressing me wherever I go. I just want to live a normal life, but that's me. I know girls who couldn't care less if they pass, but I care and to be honest, it upsets me when I hear people wondering about my gender. So I try my best to pass, but it doesn't always work.
What I do? I try to wear normal clothes for girls of my age, very little make up and other things that are kind of natural to me, like delicate and feminine gestures and walking. My voice is still a problem but I'm trying to work on it. The only thing I can't change is my "robust" body and my masculine facial features.
Heres a photo of me.

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=102386&stc=1&d=1258922512.

[Joanne f]

Shouldn't`t this be under the Trivia games and JOKES section :heehee: