First time out and a run in with the cops

[Ellie Lierae]

Hey all, went to the beach today in my new bikini looking to work on a tan, I was there for about an hour and a half, well out of the public's view(or so I thought), when 3 cops come walking up the beach to me. Apparently a couple of old guys had seen me and called them on it, 2 of them were fairly young and didn't mind the fact that I crossdress and asked for I.D and a bag search which I allowed, rather than fight them over it, but the third guy was a fairly old one and didn't like the fact that I dress out of the norm one bit.

On the walk back to the beach the young female cop started asking me questions about CDing like how long had I done it what sort of clothes I was owned, whether I owned any shoes, if my friends and family knew. I answered truthfully, she seemed genuinely interested. Upon returning to my car with them, they searched it for any drugs, which I would never do, the old guy said if I want to do it go into the bush and do it there. They took a photo and left, no charges or official warnings given, I went to a mates place and had a few games of pool.

All in all an interesting day,
Ellie

[Mirani]

So, you are not committing any offences. What reason is there to search anything of yours - or can they just do it without any cause?What grounds were there for "suspecting" you had drugs in the car?
Why would they need a photo?
Sorry for all the questions .. just trying to get a handle on police processes where you are.
Seems you had to go through a lot for doing nothing! I'm glad it didn't spook you. But are you now on some sort of police database?

[Kristen-Gaye]

"go into the bush & do it there"???? what a turd! :Angry3:
K.

[DAVIDA]

OK, don't get me wrong. My grandfather was a cop and then a judge, My father was also a cop. BUT, if I were out, minding my own buisness, no matter how I was dressed, as long as I was dressed, I think that I would have had a problem with this type of harassment!
There was NO reason to search anything of yours. And there surely was no reason to take your picture.
You might want to have a conversation with whoever is your local government representative.
It is a normal police emergency to check out things just because an old man sees something that they don't like?
And let's not just send one cop to investigate, let's send three!
You can't be to careful, there might have been a weapon being hidden in your bikini!

[Wen4cd]

Lovely beach you went to, let me know what it is so I can be sure never to spend money there.

[Ellie Lierae]

But are you now on some sort of police database?

Na, they said that I wont b, didn't even put anything official down. As for searching my car, they have had a few ppl down on the beach in unusual circumstances and most were drug related so they were "playing it safe" lol, I don't mind just means I go out in full costume or not at all(if I go out here in town, not really the kind of town you'd really want to tho). Gotta love Gladstone for that its a tradie town and most are set in their ways, they don't like change. More reason to move to Brisbane next year :D

[DAVIDA]

I thought that this was your first time out. Kind of ballsy to make the first time out in a bikini!

[Ellie Lierae]

I thought that this was your first time out. Kind of ballsy to make the first time out in a bikini!

it was my first time out, main reason I was game enough is cause I'm not known well enough in the beach community to worry about being seen, and I thought I was far enough out of sight not to be noticed easily, ohwell, it could have been a lot worse knowing what some of the local police can be like.

[Sherry-Stephanie]

Still trying to figuire out how the car was part of the "incident" thus subject to a search...obvously a abuse of power if doen here in the States because that car doesn't relate to them checking on you at all...simply a fishing expedition, plus the photo???? tp go with a Field Interview card I guess...

Am I to assume your either in England or Australia??? with the use of the term went over my "mate's" house and shot a few rounds of pool???

and they wonder why cops get a bad rap!!!!

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Hi Ellie-

I'm sorry your contact with the local police was under such circumstances. I am somewhat familiar with police procedures, at least here in the states. First of all, any officer, in uniform or not, can simply walk up to anyone and initiate a conversation, just as anybody can walk up to someone and talk to them. It's a free country...more or less. It's all up to you how things proceed from there. Unless the poilice have reason to believe you have commited a crime, then you can simply say you'd rather not speak with them. If you wish, you can display your ID, but you probably don't have to, depending on circumstance and local laws, you can allow them to search your possessions, but you don't have to. Of course, if you refuse, they may badger you a bit with, "What have you got to hide. Do you have drugs or something illegal in your car?" and so on, but they do not have the right to search without your permission or reasonable cause.

As long as you weren't violating any laws regarding public indecency and so on, then what you were doing is perfectly legal. The older cop sounds set in his ways in spite of however much sensitivity training he's received and allowed his own feelings about TG people to leak over into the contact. Younger cops tend to be more accepting, at least somewhat, of alternative lifestyles so long as the law isn't being broken. Not all cops are rectal orifices, but quite a few can be. It sounds like you handled things well.

If you're bothered by how things went down, you may be able to contact your local police department and make your feelings known. Many departments, at least larger ones, have ombudsmen to handle citizen concerns or you can ask to speak with a supervisor. It may not get you anywhere, but it's an option, and who knows, it may do some good.

Oh, and fwiw, the usual disclaimers apply, I'm not an attorney, or cop, so take what I say with a grain or two.

Best of luck to you.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[PetiteDuality]

They took a picture? What for? What do they plan to do with this picture?

Is the old cop planning to use the picture into the bush? :D

But seriously, be careful with what they do with this picture, especially if you are not outl

[Paula Siemen]

"go into the bush & do it there"???? what a turd! :Angry3:
K.

That's probably where he is lurking about hoping to catch some juicy views. Now, who would I think is the pervert?????

[jessica millen]

i'd say you handled it just about perfectly. we've all i'm sure met the older, stuck in their way police man, no matter which country youre from. accept the questions, and if youve nothing to hide, let them allay their fears. it may not be right, but hell, this was your first time out! i'd have done just the same in the same position. i'd certainly want to keep them happy and then get on my way as quickly as possible. and coming originally from a country where the police trusted no-one, i know the sp.
hey, it'll set you up well for the next time out though :)
jess

[Terraforming]

Searching your bag and your car without probable cause? I probably wouldn't have handled it the same way as you... but at least everything turned out all right.

[Alayna]

accept the questions, and if youve nothing to hide, let them allay their fears.
jess


I know I'm going to get flamed on this, but no, no, no! You were completely abused and violated Ellie, and the more people who give in to unwarranted police demands the more police will be encouraged to abuse their power. Yes, it's a very confrontational viewpoint but this is (assuming you live in the U.S) a full-on police state, and if we want to keep the few rights we have left we must fight for them.

You may not realize it, but you put yourself in a VERY dangerous position by letting them search your vehicle and bag (especially if you gave it to them to search, rather than holding it yourself). Believe it or not, planting evidence (particularly drugs) is common practice and had they done it you would have been SOL.

It sucks, but if you plan to go out dressed en-femme in the U.S. you should be aware that you could be hassled by the police and that if you choose to fight them you are in for a major hassle, but it's every citizen's right and responsibility to say NO to being abused by our supposed protectors. They are trained in every kind of dirty trick you can imagine and more, and they use them regularly. The most important part of preparing to go out dressed up should be to know your rights and be prepared to exercise them.

Never, EVER, allow a cop to search your person, belongings, vehicle, or enter your home without a warrant. If they demand you do so, ask them "Am I under arrest? Are you directly ordering me to do xxxx?". If they say "yes" to either, don't fight them but tell them you will allow it under protest, get their badge number and inform them you will be filing a complaint. Above all make no sudden movements, don't talk back, and use your right to remain silent. The worst that will happen is they'll hold you for 24 hours, but any "evidence" they recover will be inadmissible in court. Anything less only opens you up to abuse and possibly planted evidence, against which you will have little to no recourse. They lie, plant, break the law, and play mind games to get whatever they want, because they are trained in the school of 'guilty until proven innocent'.

NEVER trust a cop. no matter how friendly they appear. In fact, that's one of their dirty tricks. By the way, I'd bet a lot of money that you ARE in their database now.

EDIT: just noticed the towns you mentioned so you're probably not in as much danger as I thought. Regardless though, always know your rights

[Ellie Lierae]

The older guy looked like he was itching to find cause to lock me up, so I figured easier to let them search the car and bag find nothing and go on thier way, and yeh I live in australia. I hadn't broken any indecency laws so I know I was in the right, just didnt want the hassle of fighting with them.

[Tora]

If you refuse a inspection of you property, in a public area, as your car on the street, they might bring in a dog, to look for drugs. Alayna may be right about protecting your rights. It is too bad, when the police seem to be holding the cards. Several local departments in Metro Detroit, keep detailed data on all contacts.

[Olivia]

I try to avoid any and all contact with the police. And, I have friends who are "on the job". As our local sheriff once told me, "there are *ssholes in every profession." And an *sshole cop can surely cause you grief, good or not.:) I'm glad your encounter went no further.

O

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Such paranoia. If a law enforcement officer asks you to give permission to search your property, your car, your handbag whatever, you can always refuse unless they have probable cause, in which case they'll just search because they can. Everyone has the right to refuse to have their property searched without a warrant or to be unreasonably detained. You can always choose to break off contact, just say, "Nice to chat, but I have to be going." If you are being charged or detained, then they will tell you and...charge or detain you for further investigation if they have reasonable cause to believe you commited a crime. Does this get abused? Yes, sadly it does, but it's not endemic and some sort of policy. How ridiculous to even think so.

No one has to submit to the invasion of their privacy or rights. Yeah, some cops are bullies and a-holes, some will try to bully or intimidate you, but in the end it's up to you. No, you're not being singled out, it's not some conspiracy, mostly it has to do with cops being bored and gurls like us standing out and being something unusual. Is there a data base for FI (Field Interviews)? Yeah, but not a shared one, at least not usually, just local. All this paranoia about cops being your enemy is just plain crazy. Now flame me for that.

-Joni Mari

[Ellie Lierae]

Such paranoia. If a law enforcement officer asks you to give permission to search your property, your car, your handbag whatever, you can always refuse unless they have probable cause, in which case they'll just search because they can. Everyone has the right to refuse to have their property searched without a warrant or to be unreasonably detained. You can always choose to break off contact, just say, "Nice to chat, but I have to be going." If you are being charged or detained, then they will tell you and...charge or detain you for further investigation if they have reasonable cause to believe you commited a crime. Does this get abused? Yes, sadly it does, but it's not endemic and some sort of policy. How ridiculous to even think so.

No one has to submit to the invasion of their privacy or rights. Yeah, some cops are bullies and a-holes, some will try to bully or intimidate you, but in the end it's up to you. No, you're not being singled out, it's not some conspiracy, mostly it has to do with cops being bored and gurls like us standing out and being something unusual. Is there a data base for FI (Field Interviews)? Yeah, but not a shared one, at least not usually, just local. All this paranoia about cops being your enemy is just plain crazy. Now flame me for that.

-Joni Mari

Joni I must say I agree with you, under other circumstances I probably would have broken it off and seen where it led, but since I'm not out to my family(who I still live with) I decided better to go along with it and not kick up a stink than have mum and dad know about it just yet.

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Dear Ellie-

Girl, I think you handled things just fine under the circumstances and I'm glad things went well, at least over all, for you. Police encounters can be quite intimidating, believe me I know, and I think from what you have said that you handled it so well. Truthfully, police officers run the gamut from total arseholes to kind, sympathetic and understanding individuals, after all, they are drawn from the general populace (hopefully with careful screening and evaluations) and have many of the same prejudices and foibles as any other person you might meet on the street. The definition of professionalism is to be able to set those things aside whilst on the job and treat everyone they encounter with courtesy and respect. Some do, some don't.

I suppose one thing we should all remember is that being TG and our expression of it is nothing to be ashamed of and is neither wrong, illegal, immoral or bad.

Ellie, I wish you the very best. May the Goddess always smile on you and yours and hold you safe from harm.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[Saren]

The horrible thing is, what they did was not illeage...atleast if it was in the states. All they have to do is invoke the Patriot Act, (they just have to say, "you were acting in a suspicious manner) and search any part of you or your possisions. But as you don't state what country you live in, it is hard to say much about it.

[dawnmarrie1961]

Ellie, sounds like the officers were just doing their job.They got a call they have to investigate it. I wouldn't read to much into it. I'm sure they've seen stranger things than you trying to get a tan.

I've gotten stopped by the police a number of times. They usually behave professionally. No problem. I realize they are just doing their job.


Be safe. Be smart.

Dawn Marrie.

[MissConstrued]

Ah... you know what they say... when you assume, you make an "ass" out of "u" and "me."

It should be clear to anyone who read past the first post (though the modus operandi seems to be barge in without reading any further) that the OP lives in Australia.

Australia was never meant to be a free country. It is a prison colony.

I say "is" not "was" for a good reason... and anyone who understands the core principles of human liberty will understand.

So, this is perfectly normal behavior for Australian police, and Australian subjects.

Kudos to you Americans who got riled, but you're barking up the wrong tree, don't you think?

[Saren]

Who got rilled up? I don't quite get what makes it obvious that it took place in Australia? Nothing seemed strange for me. It sounded like something that would happen in America, or England, or any number of other countries. I person was just pointing out, they can pull that kind of stuff in the states due to the Patriot Act.

[EDIT]

I missed the towns that was posted....I didn't see those the first read through. It does indeed sound like Australia.

[Andrea_1948]

As I see it, here in the US we have the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution which guarantees the right to privacy in your person and your private property. 'Reasonable cause' has to do with a crime/offense that has already been committed and the police believe the person they are contacting has committed that crime/offense. One can usually expect an arrest or 'cite and release' when confronted by the police where reasonable cause exists. However, 'Reasonable Suspicion' has to do with some articulable fact that a crime/offense may have been or is about to be committed.

When you are approached by the police and they clearly want to talk with you the first words uttered from you should be, "Has a crime or offense been committed"? If the police respond with something like, "I'm not sure" or "Maybe" or something to that affect, they are operating under reasonable suspicion and fishing for information. Yes, the police are able to approach you anywhere in a public place or go to your home or other private property for a 'knock and talk' discussion but in no case are you obliged to answer any questions or even talk with them (Fifth Amendment to the Constitution). If the police tell you that they believe a crime/offence has been committed, and you may be involved somehow, do not under any circumstances talk with them about the crime/offense because ANY ‘voluntary statements’ made by you can and will be used against you. If the offense is a crime and you are taken into custody, the police are required to advise you of your Miranda Rights which are:
1. You have the right to remain silent.
2. You have the right to have an attorney present before you answer any questions
3. If you can’t afford an attorney one will be appointed by the court for you
4. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a Court of Law

There are exceptions to every rule. The police in most all locals have the right to stop and talk to you but they cannot unreasonably detain you unless you are under arrest. Arrest means that you are taken into physical custody, held long enough to issue a citation or the police restrict you from just walking away.

Another BIG EXCEPTION if you are operating a motor vehicle you must produce a driver license or you can be detained long enough to assure your correct identity and validity of your license. Sometimes that’s a chauffeured trip to the police station and a walk back to your car or impound lot and a hefty tow bill.

As for pictures, anyone can take a (not lewd) photo of anyone else in a public place unless it posted as forbidden or there is some expectation of privacy. Public nude beaches, for example, often are posted for everyone but the police.

As for searching; the police may give a quick ‘pat down’ for weapons and their protection. Cops are taught how to do this at the academy so they don’t get fondling charges brought against them. Vehicle and private space searches can only be done with your consent or a warrant.

I have mixed feelings about allowing a search of my vehicle or private space (property). If I were in Ellie’s shoes, if the female cop has a good attitude, OK maybe. Assh*le cops get a warrant period since they MUST have enough probable cause to convince a judge or magistrate that they need to search your private property for evidence of a crime. Some cops will threaten you that they will get a warrant if you don't let them do a consentual search. It's usually an unfounded threat and a whole different legal situation if they do. It's inconvenient for both you and the cop but what the hell make ‘em do their job right.

By the way, the photo the cops took, count on it being passed around the ‘cop shop’ if for nothing more than a laugh. It’ll probably get posted on the bulletin board for a while. And count on a record of some sort being made about the encounter even if it’s just a simple dispatch log entry.

OK, sorry for the rant. I am not a cop nor am I anti-police. I just dislike watching my civil rights get slowly erroded away.

[Hope]

By your description, what you were doing was completely innocent.

I'm not sure what to say. You seem to be so nonchalant about this - but if I were out, minding my own business, not disturbing people, and I were subjected to questioning, a groundless, warrantless search, and was told to not engage in a completely legal activity in a public place by a supposed public servant - I would be filing a harassment complain, at a minimum.

You seem to think this isn't a big deal, but it IS a big deal. When we allow ourselves to be harassed like this, we reinforce the idea that it is completely OK to harass tans people like this.

I am forced to wonder, based on your reaction, if you don't feel like what you were doing is somehow dirty and wrong.

[Andrea_1948]

Ah... you know what they say... when you assume, you make an "ass" out of "u" and "me."

It should be clear to anyone who read past the first post (though the modus operandi seems to be barge in without reading any further) that the OP lives in Australia.

Australia was never meant to be a free country. It is a prison colony.

I say "is" not "was" for a good reason... and anyone who understands the core principles of human liberty will understand.

So, this is perfectly normal behavior for Australian police, and Australian subjects.

Kudos to you Americans who got riled, but you're barking up the wrong tree, don't you think?

Yeah, you're right. Sometimes it feels good to just bark though. :)

[Saren]

Yes, I know, not really relavent to the conversation...But in response to Andrea 1948. The US Patriot Act pretty much renders the 4th Amendment NULL AND VOID. If the government/police so choose that they have reason to belive you *MAY* be acting suspicious, they can perform an illegal search and seizure of your proporty quite legaly. It is a horrible act that needs to be repealed. All it is doing is making America more and more of an Orwellian society then it already was. It won't be long till most of our rights from the Bill of Rights is pretty much circumvented. I would bet on it happening within my lifetime. I am almost 23 now.

[Jessinthesprings]

why were they bothering you anyway? If you were working on your tan wearing clothes keeping to yourself they should have never even approached you. I'm confused.

[catriona36]

Ellie Lierae
Hi sis.
The only part that has me worried is the fact that they took your picture.
why? to use at a later date by the sounds of it.
if they do or dont use it, they HAVE it.
Now since you have not been convicted of ANY sex crime
they have no need to take your picture.
I would email or call the following departments up your way..

Queensland Ombudsman

Level 17, 53 Albert St Brisbane 4000
GPO Box 3314 Brisbane 4001
Phone - Freecall™ 1800 068 908 (within Qld only)
(07) 3005 7000 (Brisbane metro)
TTY - (07) 3006 8174
Fax - (07) 3005 7067


Anti-Discrimination Commission - www.adcq.qld.gov.au/

Crime and Misconduct Commission - www.cmc.qld.gov.au/

The Ombudsman - www.ombudsman.qld.gov.au

We can not let the police go round doing what they like (to a point)
In some areas we have shot ourselves in the foot by removing certain
powers from the police in Aus and in others given them way toooooooo much.
I know its hard for those (me included) who have not come out,
but i would be demanding the picture be destroyed.
I know Queensland can be a funny place, and they may even have it writen up,
that if you do something "strange" in public they can take your picture for "furture reference".

Quote. " i remember when queensland made homosexuality legal, so i left b4 they made it compolsory":daydreaming::heehee:

[Andrea_1948]

Yes, I know, not really relavent to the conversation...But in response to Andrea 1948. The US Patriot Act pretty much renders the 4th Amendment NULL AND VOID. If the government/police so choose that they have reason to belive you *MAY* be acting suspicious, they can perform an illegal search and seizure of your proporty quite legaly. It is a horrible act that needs to be repealed. All it is doing is making America more and more of an Orwellian society then it already was. It won't be long till most of our rights from the Bill of Rights is pretty much circumvented. I would bet on it happening within my lifetime. I am almost 23 now.

Kinda morphing the topic. But yeah, there is such a thing as 'exigent circumstances' and the 'plain view doctrine' which allow the police to search without a warrant IF there is a strong likelyhood that evidence will be destroyed or contraband is plainly seen by the police. I have a big issue with wiretaps that are either illegal or allowed by some secret court somewhere by an unknown judge where the probable cause will never be tested in court.

[goofus]

Run-ins with law enforcement personnel are always interesting, particularly when you're dressed or doing something crossdressing related!!

[donnalee]

The US Patriot Act pretty much renders the 4th Amendment NULL AND VOID.

No act of Congress or of the executive branch can make a provision of the U.S. Constitution "null & void". There have been many attempts by those branches to do this, mostly in the name of patriotism. It is, of course, the exact opposite. These attempts must ultimately fail, but, as I've had to explain to some, I'd rather not fight those battles unless I have significant assistance.

[Persephone]

The older guy looked like he was itching to find cause to lock me up, so I figured easier to let them search the car and bag find nothing and go on thier way, and yeh I live in australia. I hadn't broken any indecency laws so I know I was in the right, just didnt want the hassle of fighting with them.

A whole bunch of folks here seem preoccupied with the legal details of what happened, to the point that a number of them haven't even noticed that U.S. law doesn't apply in Australia.

I too am a big fan of civil rights, especially the first ten Amendments to the U.S. Constitution, but I think it is way more important to give you credit for what appears to have been your complete coolness under fire.

This was your first time out and, boom! you encountered the police! You took it in stride, handled it well, and went on with your life. Well done!

So Ellie, here's a big bouquet of flowers :love: and a big hug :hugs: for you!

Persephone.

[jessica millen]

exactly my point, Persephone. the way you reacted,Ellie, in my mind, is totally correct. for some of you quoting the laws of america, she's already said this was her first time out, and harrassed, and she wanted it to end quickly and with no further actions, due to living at home etc etc.
i understand that we all have rights that we need to believe in, i'm just the same as any one here saying that you could have refused, but heres the thing - i would have done the same, as (a) i had nothing to hide and (b) i had done nothing wrong and (c) theres always one arsehole, get used to it.
maybe if the occassion arises again, she will feel more confident in herself and her rights to say so, maybe not.
and Alayna, i totally agree with your point, but you see, i come from a country torn by war for all my life, hence why i moved away. i was in many confrontations with the police and army (not with crossdressing mind you!) when the most sensible option was to talk, reason, allow a search and get on with your day. i have seen the consequences of other actions, when a force may be either prejudiced, or just plain scared or spooked by something out of the ordinary.
here endeth the lesson
have a nice day girls :)
jess

[Fab Karen]

"
Australia was never meant to be a free country. It is a prison colony."
If you're interested in being accurate, replace is with was.

[shesadvl]

yup oi agree karen was they've become a bit more civilised now laffing... and yes the OP is from australia... the place Gladstone im pretty sure is in Queensland, they were also talking about moving to Brisbane which is also in the state of Queensland.

as for Australia being the penal colony was:
This Day in History 1788: First Australian penal colony established....From 1788 to 1823, the Colony of New South Wales was officially a penal colony comprised mainly of convicts, marines and the wives of the marines But there was also many other parts of australia that had smaller penal colonies as well

As for the beach coppers, we also have them here in NZ, there is a section of beach that is set aside where we go as we have access ..(where I live to a number of beaches within a 5-10 minute drive)..... for those that are nude bathers, if you are a CD'er I guess can go on that end of the beach as well, because its relatively secluded, the laugh is that the beach coppers are fully clothed laffing... the nude bathers objected to them wearing uniform on their beat....and that end of the beach... that are pretty well left alone unless you are walking the length of the beach and should come across them.....there are warning notices that the area could contain nude bathers..... :battingeyelashes:

Amazing the female copper was interested in your CDIng Ellie but good for you answering her questions, but I guess what they put you through was pretty standard because of the old dude not understanding other peoples lifestyles or way of life, your wish to enjoy the beach in a bikini....

My sister had a situation on a beach in melbourne...where they allow topless bathing...if you are there first and no one around and you are topless bathing then those that arrive later have to accept it... this apparently caused a huge furore,.. now they have signs topless this end others the other end lol.... takes all sorts no matter how open minded yer are...:battingeyelashes:

[trudytwoshoes]

No wonder people have little or no respect for the police- they're as red-necked as can be- take it in to the bush- how subtle- The english expression 'Git" seems apt.
Regards
Trudytwoshoes

[kay_jessica]

...............................

Am I to assume your either in England or Australia??? ..................

Well I immediately assumed she was in the US, given all the horror stories you read on this forum about how difficult it is to go out dressed in some states. But alas, I think Elle is Australian (East Coast maybe). It certainly would not happen here in the UK given the fact that the police here take hate crimes quite seriously. As an example see http://www.hampshire.police.uk/Internet/advice/lgbtpolicing.htm. Then I'm surprised it happened as reported in Australia http://www.police.qld.gov.au/programs/community/lgbti/ If it had been me I think I'd be formaly complaining about to their superiors and expecting them to go after the guy who drew their attention to me in the first place for trying to incite hate crime.

Hugs

Kay

[BritneyLynn]

While complaining to the police about a crossdresser is a bit bigoted/close minded, I don't think it approaches the point of inciting or committing a hate crime. Some people haven't been exposed to enough information about us to distinguish between someone with unusual clothing tastes and someone else that's a predator.

Had someone threatened to hurt Ellie if she didn't take her bikini elsewhere, I would think a "hate" element coming into play.

Had Ellie been reluctant to have her car searched I don't believe the officer would have had probable cause for an involuntary search. Some places are enforcing some standards about how revealing swimsuits can be, particularly thong style bottoms, knitted material with skimpy or no lining and tiny breast pockets on women's tops.

[Tina P Hose]

Cops are just regular folks doing their job. Like most folks doing their job some are jerks, and some are just regular folks. If a cop is a jerk, for no apparent reason, the cop should be written up. If the cop written up does not starigten up he/she should be fired...just like regular folks.

[Stephanie-L]

FWIW, I have had several friends who were police officers here in the US tell me, do not consent to a search of any kind if you can avoid it. Of course this does not stop them from searching IF they have probable cause, but my friends have said that often all the officer has is a feeling, or just doesn't like the looks of the person, etc, so they ask for permission to search. Then all bets are off, anything they find can be used aginst you, drugs, large amounts of cash (which in some areas could be as little as $20), a knife with a blade a bit too long, tools (you could be a burglar), plans for a MK IX thermonuclear device.... If they do not have permission to search and use probable cause as the reason then anything they find is supposed to be related to the suspected crime, i.e. if they think you are dealing drugs the aforementioned plans would not be admissable (if you get a good lawyer who can argue it in front of the judge..). Of course this is all based on US law and our Constitution's guarantee of our Right to be secure in our persons and papers, in other countries I am very sure things are different. Anyway, I am glad that things turned out well, but I would be careful, that older cop sounds like he wil be watching for you, and for an excuse to bust you for being a deviant, he wants to get perverts like you off our beaches. Good luck....Stephanie

[TxCassie]

Ellie,

What an experince for your first time out en femme! But, you did handle it well. I take it you're down under, so I do not know the laws as I am in the U.S.

Some of the things posted are not accurate and I think some of the comments show a person's own prejudice about law enforcement officers. But, then, you must realize our prespective come from our experineces, so each may very well be valid.

I've never gone out en femme nor do I expect to anytime soon, maybe one day, but that day is not here yet. Yet, while I know the officers were doing their jobs by responding to a call for service, how they excute their duties is another thing. And everyone was dead on by saying how you reacted and responded really did make all the difference.

Searches are always very touchy. I think we all can agree that having a police officer search through our private things or person is quite unnerving. The old adage of "If you have nothing to hide, then..." is just not a valid or acceptable attitude. It's not a matter of having anything to hide (of course, manytimes it is... ) but it's a matter of not wanting anyone rummaging through your personal belonging or touching your person, it's a violation of privacy, personal security, and freedom. Yet, upon reasonable suspecion, a police office may question you, under probably cause they may search without a warrant. The U.S. Supreme Court just passed on a ruling that they can no longer search beyond the reach of the person in a motor vehical unless there is probably cause of a weapon, or elements of a crime present.

So, the authority of the police officer in the U.S. have been curtailed by a conservative court. Yet, the officer can always request to search your belongings and you have every right to refused. Refusal always triggers a more intense determination on part of the officer to search, either by threat of a dog sniffing officer or warrant. I would haved asked, Officer what is your probably cause to search my belongings? I prefer no one touch my belongings as they are mine. Most officers will ask if you have anything illegal on your peson which you would repond no. Unless the officer has reason not to believe you, I would say that would end the request for any search. A gurl tanning on the beach, alone, away from others doesn't sound like you gave a reason for a search.

The part of your experince which I found unsettling is why they were walking you to your car or were they escorting you to your car? A police officer here would determine there was no crime being committed or about to be committed, no viloation of city oridance, and should bid you a good day and leave. The fact they were walking with you gave me the feeling they were directing or forcing you (abit in a most unforcable manner) to leave the beach.

Above all, I would have objected to the picture unless you gave consent. There should be no reason for a police officer (in the U.S.) to take a picture of a anyone they come into contact other than for evidence. If you had a camera, you should have retuned the favor and then gone to their station and asked the commander why it was necessary these officers took yoiur picture without consent. While it is true, the officer will record the contact because it is part of the job. We, the public demand accountability of our police force and thus, we must not cry when a database is created. Back in the day, I believe police departments did keep databases on various populations, but today, I don't know if that really is the case. In the current day where there are openly gay and yes, there are even transgender police officers, I think such databases would be exposed somehow.

So, after all this verbage.. sorry to be long winded, I think when we gals come into contact with law enforcement, we need to react in a very mature, confident and knowledgeable manner. Know your rights and remember while there are jerks in every walk of life, most police officers are just doing their job and trying to get home alive at the end of the day. The "pistol in the bikini" can and does happen all the time and life changes or ends in an instant for a police officer.

Cassie

[Elly E]

Ugh, pigs....

I love one thing about Michigan - If I'm not operating a vehicle which requires a license, I don't have to show ID if hassled by the police.

Being an open carry advocate, you learn a lot about search and seizure laws - And the fact is, it makes me sick to hear about this sort of thing, I'm happy you didn't get in trouble, but at the same time - You shouldn't have had to be subjected to such an invasive search (Drugs? Etc? Stop making trouble for people...God I hate cops...)

I'm sorry you had to deal with that.

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Ugh..ignorant people.

How cool that we share something in common. I hate certain classes of people, too. Like people that think all TG's are queer, or people that hate all blacks, or all whites, or all cops. You know, ignorant people.

In case you can't read, she wasn't gratuitously "hassled" by the police, they responded to a citizen's complaint, she gave her permission for them to search her belongings voluntarily. Do try to pay attention, dear.

-Joni Mari

[Olivia]

Gratuitous or not, you don't think she was "hassled" by those officers? Good grief.

[Joni Marie Cruz]

I was going to respond in kind, but it's pointless. Have a nice weekend.

-Joni Mari

[dragdoll]

what state (or country) was this? i would never consent to any kind of search or picture taking for doing absolutely nothing. cops suck.

[Elly E]

Ugh..ignorant people.

How cool that we share something in common. I hate certain classes of people, too. Like people that think all TG's are queer, or people that hate all blacks, or all whites, or all cops. You know, ignorant people.

In case you can't read, she wasn't gratuitously "hassled" by the police, they responded to a citizen's complaint, she gave her permission for them to search her belongings voluntarily. Do try to pay attention, dear.

-Joni Mari

You're right, I should have paid attention.

You're a bleeding heart and shes ignorant and naive for giving permission for a search.

[Joni Marie Cruz]

No. Actually, I'm not, far from it. However, I do have a background and a perspective that isn't grounded solely in prejudice. Truly, it amazes me that a group such as ourselves, who would like to have, if not acceptance, at least a modicum of tolerance, and not be judged only the actions or appearances of a few, are so willing to turn and savage some other group and take as representative of the whole the actions of a relative few.

Of course I realize that you and your ilk are impervious to mere logic and persuasion, so I'll save my breath. As Friedrich Schiller (yes, he was a furriner) wrote, "Against stupidity the very gods themselves contend in vain." If you ever choose to visit reality I'll buy you a beer and we can chat.

Oh, and you can call me anything you want, water and duck backs and so on, but I don't think you should call Ellie, who originally posted, either ignorant or naive. Of course, I can't speak to her possible naivete, but she certainly doesn't seem ignorant to me.

-Joni Mari

[Margot]

Ellie; I think you handled it very well considering the hassle you could have created screaming for your rights. The police have to investigate a complaint but once they spoke to you that should have been that.
:hugs:
Margot

[Elly E]

No. Actually, I'm not, far from it. However, I do have a background and a perspective that isn't grounded solely in prejudice. Truly, it amazes me that a group such as ourselves, who would like to have, if not acceptance, at least a modicum of tolerance, and not be judged only the actions or appearances of a few, are so willing to turn and savage some other group and take as representative of the whole the actions of a relative few.

Of course I realize that you and your ilk are impervious to mere logic and persuasion, so I'll save my breath. As Friedrich Schiller (yes, he was a furriner) wrote, "Against stupidity the very gods themselves contend in vain." If you ever choose to visit reality I'll buy you a beer and we can chat.

Oh, and you can call me anything you want, water and duck backs and so on, but I don't think you should call Ellie, who originally posted, either ignorant or naive. Of course, I can't speak to her possible naivete, but she certainly doesn't seem ignorant to me.

-Joni Mari

Who the hell says Ilk in 2009?!

Fine, you want civil, you've got civil, but let me say this, don't you ever pull that "Furriner" crap on me, get over your little holier than thou attitude and grow up and visit reality yourself.

First of all, you assume that because I say I hate cops, I must hate every cop, ever, and you add in that stuff about hating black people, or whatever, then you proceed to further insult me by using some redneck mock spelling of the word "Foreigner", assuming that I'm some backwoods hick who obviously hates everything unamerican.

The hell? Just because the group we're part of has been judged means we can never ever judge another group again? Because its not politically correct? You're the one trying to please everyone, and let me tell you something, it leaves you open to a lot of disappointment in life when you sit there and force yourself to be tolerant. We are born with a natural instinct to hate those who have wronged us. Its part of being human and its natural. But how dare you say I have a background based solely in prejudice, my parents raised me very well thank you, and I happen to have friends of all walks of life. INCLUDING POLICE OFFICERS. Not to mention I still planned on joining the police force because I believe there are too many "bad" cops and not enough good ones.

So get over yourself, quit hiding behind some hypocritical shield of tolerance, and just admit the police treated her badly. Why did they take a picture? Why did they ask to search her? The car? There was NO REASON. And its her right as a human being to refuse that search, she had done nothing wrong - and when people cave into the police like that we all look a little bit weaker. You have to stand up for your rights, you have to make a fuss, and you have to be a stronger person in the face of adversity. ALL THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE WAS CONFIRM WHAT WAS HAPPENING, WROTE IT DOWN, AND LET HER ON HER WAY. There was no need for the extra. Period.

[Sherry-Stephanie]

I've read this thread several times now and it is bothering me....

Yes they (the PO's) have a right to approach you and do a FI...Field Interview and inquire about what your doing...but beyond that NADA..

The two things that bother me is the picture taking and the search of the vehicle...both beyond the scope of the "FI"...

A) Picture...OK they identify you as a "gang member' so they take a picture for a current photo and attach it to the Field Interview card so they can match the data and a photo...no problem there if your a gang member or have an extensive armed robbery or burglary past...that's just good investigative practice if your one of the above....the cops said no report would be made...OK so then why the picture??? Where is the picture going??? No report then where is the picture going to be attached to????

Search the vehicle??? Big NO NO!!!! You were on the beach sunbathing ,..please tell me how the vehicle and subsequent search of it comes into play???? It flat out doesn't and they had no legal standing to bring a search into play...they (more likely one of them) wanted to go "fishing" and see if they could find something..it was irrelivant, unlawful and IMHO constitued harrshment of you and violated your rights abet even though you consented to the search...I think I'd probably would have said no to a consent search...asked if they had probable cause to search or warrant...otherwise NO...might have PO'd whoever was asking, but he was trying to bully you and he did....however the good news is if by chance he found something there or placed something to be found and yes girls that does happen in rare ccassions....it would have more than likely be thrown out on a motion hearing to supress by any lawyer more than two weeks out of law school....

Bottom line is you got the run around beyond what is allowed by department policies as well as by laws of the land...be it US, Britian or Australia since all there laws are rooted in the same gender...

Abuse of power or authority is wrong regardless of the reason....JMHO!!!

[Angie G]

My that was an interesting day the older cop sounds like a jerk.:hugs:
Angie

[susan fuller]

I think you did well with the knowledge you had of what a PO could and could not do. The only thing I worry about is the picture and what is going to come of it. If the older PO does not like CD'ers he could post it on the internet and out you to the world. Unless a crime has been committed he had no legal reason to take a photo. Hope everything comes out OK. Even an Inmate in prison has a right to refuse his picture being taken without written permission.

[Joni Marie Cruz]

I judged you by what you wrote. Just as you judged me by what I wrote and continue to make assumptions about me based on that. If I offended you, too bad, get over it. If you assume that what I wrote about people who are ignorant and prejudiced was specifically targeted at you, then that was your choice, wear it if you want to. No apology's forthcoming.

You said you hate cops. You didn't qualify it in any way at all, you didn't say, "I hate cops who act like a-holes." Just that you hated cops. What else would a person assume? If you had said, "I hate crossdressers." then I, or anyone else, would assume you meant each and every crossdresser. Make yourself clear.

As far as the OP, the police acted within the scope of their authority. Ellie could have left at any time but chose not to. Was she perhaps not fully cognizant of her rights, possibly, probably, but nothing the police did constituted harassment in any realistic sense of the word. One thing that I find somewhat amusing here is that the OP didn't seem all that upset about the encounter, the people who are all hot and bothered appear to be ones who have an axe to grind. Just an observation, but if you want to take it personally, you go right ahead. Have a day.

-JMC

<snip>

[michelle_tx]

I think this story pretty much sums up cops well. Some are cool, some are assholes, just like everyone else in any other profession. I do think they crossed the line taking the picture and searching your car. Of course, here in the land of the free, if they really want to search your car they will anyway as all they need is some form of probable cause. "I smelled drugs" is all it takes.

[maxi_in_az]

Where was this at exactly?