Are we genetically pre-disposed to be feminine?

[AllieSummers]

Hi ladies,

I've been having a nice debate with a fellow CD about choice. She believes that we have a choice to be a crossdresser or not be a crossdresser.

I am all about taking personal responsibility and not making excuses for deviant behavior. I'm not saying that crossdressing is a deviant behavior by the way. I'm just saying that some crossdressers use the excuse that they have no choice as an excuse to participate in deviant behavior. They tell their spouse that they have been cheating because they can't help it...for an example. Though I do agree with the fact that we do have a choice to "act" on our feelings or not, I think that many of us are pre-disposed at birth to be the way we are.

If our bodies have different gentic, hormonal and chemical makeups from other men then our bodies and brains most likely develop differently than other men. Not to make any excuses, some of us could be so much more female than male that we swing to the side of not having a choice or at least if we choose not to act on it we will likely be very unhappy with that choice.

Take a look at this and let me know your thoughts...

Kisses,

Allie

Below is a really interesting piece from last Friday's New York Times
http://www.nytimes. com/2009/ 08/22/sports/ 22runner. html?emc= eta1

and this is a link to one of Alice Dreger's books on Amazon:
http://www.amazon. com/Hermaphrodit es-Medical- Invention- Domurat-Dreger/ dp/0674001893

Where’s the Rulebook for Sex Verification?

By ALICE DREGER
Published: August 21, 2009

The only thing we know for sure about Caster Semenya, the world-champion runner from South Africa, is that she will live the rest of her life under a cloud of suspicion after track and field’s governing body announced it was investigating her sex.

Why? Because the track organization, the I.A.A.F., has not sorted out the rules for sex typing and is relying on unstated, shifting standards.
To be fair, the biology of sex is a lot more complicated than the average fan believes. Many think you can simply look at a person’s “sex chromosomes.” If the person has XY chromosomes, you declare him a man. If XX, she’s a woman. Right?

Wrong. A little biology: On the Y chromosome, a gene called SRY usually makes a fetus grow as a male. It turns out, though, that SRY can show up on an X, turning an XX fetus essentially male. And if the SRY gene does not work on the Y, the fetus develops essentially female.

Even an XY fetus with a functioning SRY can essentially develop female. In the case of Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, the ability of cells to “hear” the masculinizing hormones known as androgens is lacking. That means the genitals and the rest of the external body look female-typical, except that these women lack body hair (which depends on androgen-sensitivit y).

Women with complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome are less “masculinized” in their muscles and brains than the average woman, because the average woman makes and “hears” some androgens. Want to tell women with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome they have to compete as men, just because they have a Y chromosome? That makes no sense.

So, some say, just look at genitals. Forget the genes — pull down the jeans! The I.A.A.F. asks drug testers to do this. But because male and female genitals start from the same stuff, a person can have something between a penis and a clitoris, and still legitimately be thought of as a man or a woman.

Moreover, a person can look male-typical on the outside but be female-typical on the inside, or vice versa. A few years ago, I got a call from Matthew, a 19-year-old who was born looking obviously male, was raised a boy, and had a girlfriend and a male-typical life. Then he found out, by way of some medical problems, that he had ovaries and a uterus.

Matthew had an extreme form of Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia. His adrenal glands made so many androgens, even though he had XX chromosomes and ovaries, that his body developed to look male-typical. In fact, his body is mostly male-typical, including his muscle development and his self identity.

O.K., you say, if chromosomes and genitals do not work, how about hormones? We might assume that it is hormones that really matter in terms of whether someone has an athletic advantage.

Well, women and men make the same hormones, just in different quantities, on average. The average man has more androgens than the average woman. But to state the obvious, the average female athlete is not the average woman. In some sports, she is likely to have naturally high levels of androgens. That is probably part of why she has succeeded athletically.

By the way, that is also why she is often flat-chested, boyish looking and may have a bigger-than- average clitoris. High levels of androgens can do all that.

Sure, in certain sports, a woman with naturally high levels of androgens has an advantage. But is it an unfair advantage? I don’t think so. Some men naturally have higher levels of androgens than other men. Is that unfair?

Consider an analogy: Men on average are taller than women. But do we stop women from competing if a male-typical height gives them an advantage over shorter women? Can we imagine a Michele Phelps or a Patricia Ewing being told, “You’re too tall to compete as a woman?” So why would we want to tell some women, “You naturally have too high a level of androgens to compete as a woman?” There seems to be nothing wrong with this kind of natural advantage.

So where do we draw the line between men and women in athletics? I don’t know. The fact is, sex is messy. This is demonstrated in the I.A.A.F.’s process for determining whether Semenya is in fact a woman. The organization has called upon a geneticist, an endocrinologist, a gynecologist, a psychologist and so forth.

Sex is so messy that in the end, these doctors are not going to be able to run a test that will answer the question. Science can and will inform their decision, but they are going to have to decide which of the dozens of characteristics of sex matter to them.

Their decision will be like the consensus regarding how many points are awarded for a touchdown and a field goal — it will be a sporting decision, not a natural one, about how we choose to play the game of sex.

These officials should — finally — come up with a clear set of rules for sex typing, one open to scientific review, one that will allow athletes like Semenya, in the privacy of their doctors’ offices, to find out, before publicly competing, whether they will be allowed to win in the crazy sport of sex. I bet that’s a sport no one ever told Semenya she would have to play.

Alice Dreger is professor of clinical medical humanities and bioethics in the Feinberg School of Medicine at Northwestern University, and the author of “Hermaphrodites and the Medical Invention of Sex” (Harvard University Press, 1998).

[TGMarla]

It's a difficult question to answer for me, because I started wearing feminine clothing when I was entering adolescence. This is a time that is very formative for us, and I'm sure the experience is different for those who gravitated towards crossdressing at a later age. I do remember having a strong curiosity about dresses and hosiery, especially since they were articles of clothing that I could never wear, since I was a boy. I noticed that girls could wear guy stuff if they wanted to, but that I was not to put on dresses, hose, heels, etc., no matter what. Once I broke that rule, I found that I really liked wearing this stuff...alot! So I don't know whether or not it's due to a genetic predisposition towards it. It seems like a very convenient excuse. I do know that since I began my affinity towards this stuff during adolescence, my adult persona has developed with this as a part of me, rather than without it being a part of me. So if it's not genetic from birth, it is at least deeply ingrained because I went through adolescence this way.

[Jaydee]

I have felt that it was either genetically based or somehow hardwired, for some time. My personal examples are too numerous to mention, but my first stirrings occurred when I was about 5-6 y.o., too young to have anything to do with sex, or understand what was happening.

Interesting newspaper article.

Jaydee

[Miranda09]

Yes, this is a very complex issue. My CDing is the result of a strong deisire to do so and as such, to make myself as convincing as possible to pass as a woman. i'm not sure how this might relate to anything genetic, but it is certain that nature doesn't always get the pattern correct. in fact, i'm sure there are more male/female blending characteristics around than one might think. As for the atheltic competition issues, I think this goes back to the cold war and the Olympics. It's no secret that many E.German female athletes took steroids and hormones that developed their musculature to such an extent that they had a definite advantage over their counterparts from other countries. This may have some bearing on how the IAAF has developed their standards for women in competitive sports.

[5150 Girl]

Well,,, When scientific evidencce points out a clear diffence in our chemical and or physical makeup, I would say that it is no longer a choice. Of course i also agree that it is up to the individual as to how they choose to handle their situation.

I also belive that we are all God's children, created by Him in his image, and that he has a plan for us all. He chose to make us all atleast a little diffent in some way. However, I'm still working on why he would make some of us "more diffent" than others. (It's funny, I was just praying on that this morning, only to come down stairs and find this thread. Coincidence? who knows.) The best reason I can come up with at this point is to teach us all somthing about acceptence anfd tolerance for one another, and loving thy neighbor as thyself.
However with so many of us still in the closet, due to issues of shame, fear, insecurity, and what-not, it makes me feel that there is still somthing missing form my reasoning.

Pardon me if I'm ranting, but I see scientific eveidence I am why i am, it just re stirs all the why's.

[AllieSummers]

That is really the problem. Science will never prove there is a "CLEAR" difference because there isn't a clear difference. The difference between each human, male and female is only very slight.

God makes no mistakes. Man does make mistakes though. We just interpret what God made as normal or abnormal, black and white, men and women.

5150 Girl...Your username says it all. What percentage woman and man are we? We are all a different percentage of each, not 100% man or 100% woman. Don't ask why? The only reason someone would want to know "WHY" is to change it. A "normal" man doesn't sit around all day on message boards and ask "WHY" he is a man. That question isn't even part of his conscienceness. He just is and he accepts it.

The reason so many of us are in the closet is because of society's and our percerption of what we are. We have been taught to believe by our parents, teachers, psychologists, scientists and even religious leaders that we are abnormal. If we as individuals finally realize that we aren't any more different than anyone else is and that what we are isn't by choice or some deviate sexual desires, that we are born with different physical, hormonal, genetic, chemical makeups then we can be at peace with it, accept it and learn to enjoy it.

I think my point is that I stongly believe that my "condition" isn't a psychological condition. It is a physical "condition". I also strongly believe that there is really a gender scale or spectrum, as I've mentioned in previous posts. I think that if eventually EVERYONE is more aware of gender and how EVERYONE is only a slight variation of each other then they will be more accepting of people that fall outside of the "norm".

I'm sure there are men that are really close to where I am in the gender spectrum but they are just one shade to the right or left of me. That slight variation makes me lean to the feminine side and makes them lean to the masculine side. We both share many things that can bring us together. The very few things that make us different shouldn't push us apart.

Why can't we all just get along? :)

Kisses,

Allie

[Sarah Doepner]

Allie,

I'd love to agree and say I crossdress because of my genes or body chemistry and I have no choice. That would be soooo easy and, in my life it would be such a cop out. But to rule it out and say it's totally my choice and I thought of it on my own would be just as bad. As the article says, it's complicated.

I've come to believe that there is a lot to the pre-disposed argument. However the question remains; would I have become a crossdresser if I hadn't been exposed to the opportunity to try on some women's things at just the right time in my life? Or would I have just experienced the "late on-set" of crossdressing in my 40's or 50's like so many of our sisters here describe? It may have been possible that if I'd not be exposed to women's clothing during that time when my chemical stew was ready that I would have gone off in another direction totally.

We can look back at the path we have taken and try to figure out in retrospect why we turned here and not there. Since I have accepted femininity as a significant part of my world I have consiously changed some of my behaviors that reinforce it. Was it easier to do that because I was pre-disposed or because I have programmed myself to appreciate and accpet those behaviors?

I can't answer it. I don't know. But I'm here now and I'm not turning back because I find it very satisfying in any number of ways.

[Ras]

Well I started to dress at the age of 5 or so, far before I knew anything sexual about why I wanted to dress, I just knew I liked it. Many years later I still enjoy dressing while a lot of it is sexual I feel I never had a choice on whether I dressed or not and know there is no way I could ever stop nor want to.

So why is we have that urge to dress at such a young age? I have noticed many of us on the introduction page indicated they started at a young age or in there teens and some even later. What is the trigger to dress? Why is it stronger for some and weaker for others. Why do some transition while others just dress?

While I can no way answer these questions...it has always made me wonder what the answers are.

[Miranda09]

I think my point is that I stongly believe that my "condition" isn't a psychological condition. It is a physical "condition". I also strongly believe that there is really a gender scale or spectrum, as I've mentioned in previous posts. I think that if eventually EVERYONE is more aware of gender and how EVERYONE is only a slight variation of each other then they will be more accepting of people that fall outside of the "norm".

I'm sure there are men that are really close to where I am in the gender spectrum but they are just one shade to the right or left of me. That slight variation makes me lean to the feminine side and makes them lean to the masculine side. We both share many things that can bring us together. The very few things that make us different shouldn't push us apart.

Why can't we all just get along? :)

Kisses,

Allie

I agree Allie. I don't consider my situation to be a psychological issues either. This is who I am. This is how I developed genetically and it always irritates me when someone decides to label our activities, if you will, as a psychological disorder. I think it's just a matter of society eventually setting aside preconceived notions as to what defines your sexual orientation, identity, or whatever and to STOP psychoanalyzing us. Everything takes time!! :)

[Patricia Jane]

We may be born with certain tendicies, which can be ignored. However some tendicies, if reinforced, become part of us.I have always enjoyed wearing womens clothing. At one time I felt quilty about doing it. But really, if you beleive in God you can not hide it from him-her.! Since I have come to this beleif, I dress when I want too. My wife Knows and is very supportive. I do not beleive in having secrects from her.:love:

[Wen4cd]

I fall on the side of choice. I was saying something to a friend similar to what this article is saying: there has never been, and will never be a physically determining 'test' one way or the other. It will always boil down to what someone chooses to be happier with.

People should be what makes them happy. You cannot be coerced into happiness, nor are you born pre-disposed to it. You have to choose it.

People who think they have no choice... those who cling to quasi-medical excuses for what could be a beautiful, rewarding thing, are not ever going to be happy. They are also the same people who help to cause what we do to be percieved as a flaw. Society loves eccentricity, but hates the sick. It's the most basic element of human nature, survival of the species. In ancient times we were seen as shamanic figures of recpect, with special vision and wisdom. If the 'birth defect' excuse had existed then, we would have been drowned in an icy river. Today the medical research still only further serves to label us as subhuman freaks.

The most insulting thing someone can say of us is not that we are deviant, but that we were physically born the way we are. It's makyo, but it's fast becoming the go-to excuse for everyone who fears personal responsibility. You are what you choose to do.

[Ralph]

Allie, I can say without reservation that this was the most informative article I have ever read on this site. Thanks for finding it and sharing it with us! Of course it raises more questions than it answers... but it does open the door for us to ignore "biology says you must be thus" and instead respond with "I know in my gut that I'm really thus".

[AllieSummers]

Wen4cd...I can't disagree with you more. The fact that we were born different doesn't label us as freaks of nature or that we have a disease. It says that we are supposed to be this way. Just because you are looking for a reason doesn't mean that you are trying to find a cure. Just an explaination that will explain why we are the way we are.

If it is totally a choice then we are freaks because we choose to be totally different.

I do agree that we do have a choice to be happy or not. That has nothing to do with being TG. You choose to be happy as a man or a woman or as a TG. Once again, I am not looking for an excuse and no one should use this as an excuse. You should say, "I was born an TG and I'm happy that I am".

Also research is proving that we are born different. I'll post other research that is pointing to that conclusion.

Kisses,

Allie

Once again...none of this is an excuse to be unhappy or to be a bad person or to cheat on your wife. It is simply information that might lead to the conclusion that we are born different...not worse but different. I can't help but believe that if some day they do find definitive proof that TGs are born different because of a natural occurance in the body that it will empower us, not lead us further into the closet.

More from Cristan Williams, Director of the Houston Transgendered Resource Center...

I recently did a search for biological factors for being trans and since this article is about the biological factors of gender, I thought I'd share the info I turned up:

Biological causes:

Common hormone "bath" in before birth (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/B6TBX-4H16P9S-1/2/ae91dff18b1b99385054e3bf971d47f9)

Male-To-Females have female BSTs in their brains (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v378/n6552/abs/378068a0.html)

Another study on brain structure (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10843193?ordinalpos=22&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)

The "transgender gene" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7689007.stm)

Sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19341803?ordinalpos=3&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)

TS brain anatomy plays a role in gender identity (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19341803?ordinalpos=3&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)

Two monozygotic twin pairs discordant for female-to-male transsexualism (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16802182?ordinalpos=12&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)

Anthropometrical measurements (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9101031?ordinalpos=29&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)

Psychoneuroendocrinology & transsexuals (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9802133?ordinalpos=24&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)


Interesting Reads:

Causes of Transsexualsim (http://www.gires.org.uk/Web_Page_Assets/Etiology_definition_signed.htm)

Theories on the causes of transsexualism (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TScauses.html)

Believe what you will...

Kisses,

Allie

[DianneRoberts]

Maybe it's no different than some people like to watch baseball and others don't.

Why question it ?

Don't worry be happy................ :2c:

:)

[MiraM]

Wen4cd...I can't disagree with you more. The fact that we were born different doesn't label us as freaks of nature or that we have a disease. It says that we are supposed to be this way. Just because you are looking for a reason doesn't mean that you are trying to find a cure. Just an explaination that will explain why we are the way we are.

If it is totally a choice then we are freaks because we choose to be totally different.

I do agree that we do have a choice to be happy or not. That has nothing to do with being TG. You choose to be happy as a man or a woman or as a TG. Once again, I am not looking for an excuse and no one should use this as an excuse. You should say, "I was born an TG and I'm happy that I am".

Also research is proving that we are born different. I'll post other research that is pointing to that conclusion.

Kisses,

Allie

Can't agree with you more Allie. I was born TG just as I was born Gay. I sure don't remember them asking for volunteers...I may not have signed up. But, I am at the point now that I am totally happy with who I am, and do not hide it. I am openly Gay, and if asked if I do drag or dressup, however they want to put it, I just whip out a picture and show them. I'm proud of who/what I am.

[Samantha B L]

I choose crossdressing because I can't think of anything more fun. But I read a book about the history of research into the "phenomena" of crossdressing over 30 years ago(I can't remember the name of the author!) and there is reason to beleive it is partially hormonal and partially neurological in nature and that it runs in families. This book drew certain distinctions between different levels of gender variant behavior(TG/TS/CD/LGBT)and this was the first I'd ever heard of the term "crossdresser". I mean,I wasn't gay or Transexual and if people found out about this thing of mine I guess they'd dismiss me as harmless yet perverted! And of course you choose crossdressing! Who wouldn't?! It's a complete pleasure. But the impulse to do so is probably hormonal or bioneural and it can't be helped. Not all,but many mental health professionals know this but an awful lot of them don't go into much lengthy rapport about these things because they're straight and the subject grosses them out even though most of them are accepting of us.



I do know that m to f crossdressers have certain things as young children which are a little different than other kids. They sometimes have a tendency to choose toys,games and trinkets in girlish pastel colors,pink,blue, orange,etc.and even once in awhile actual girl's toys and stuff. Usually, boys want things which are colored red or black. Of course that's not written in stone anywhere. The young kids who sometimes later become crossdressers are also easily fascinated by inticate music or art objects. this doesn't mean they can't still be good at sports or that they are gay or bisexual but is that so terrible if they are gay or bi? the book i'm quoting was written in the seventies and it also details the history of the first Transexual Surgery in the early 50's. I read this book in dribbles until I finally finished up with it all at a pharmacy magazine rack about 2 blocks from where I lived in The St.Louis area back in 1979 but I can't remember for the life of me who wrote it but I think it was a PHD psychologist or an MD psychiatrist. So crossdressing is both a pure pleasure and it probably runs in families. Of all the things you could inherit(and this goes for f to m CD'ing too)crossdressing is in a way a gift! Enjoy it!

[Wen4cd]

Allie, I respect your intentions in searching for the 'why' even though I have a different answer.

Lol, I didn't think you would agree, since I posted an opinion opposite to yours, heehee. Different strokes.

I just don't think we need to be, or should be, focusing on validating ourselves through the building of physical walls separating us from the rest of society. It's goes in the polar opposite direction I feel we need to go.

You could try to educate society past the fact that physical differences don't mean physical flaws until you're blue in the face, but all it takes in one HBS to scream "I has uh birth defect!" and that is what is going to trigger the deepest part of man's unconscious survival instincts, which surface as hatred and fear. All your hard work out flies out the window. You don't think this bigotry actually comes from the bible or homophobic grandpas, do you? We have to focus on our similarities, not our differences, because physical differences trigger innate responses, and all the more strongly when it's weighted with the almighty chasuble of 'scientific research.'

Humanity needs to come together on some level, not to further delineate and put into sharp relief our miniscule differences as individual beings. This line of research, (some of it funded by the same European drug companies who are in the business of manufacturing and selling hormone pills to us,) does not offer any hope I can see, and so far it only amounts to what I said: miniscule differences in body chemistry, something simple common sense would tell you exists in all beings who are not exact clones of each other. I am already thankful for my individuality and my desires, and have no wish to label them as a defect.

It doesn't say, and never will say, why a kid grabs a certain piece of clothing that has a certain set of emotional and gender symbols attached, and identifies with it, desires to wear it, and chooses to identify as the opposite sex. Gender, I believe, is 99.9% symbolic and 0.1% hormonal. It's nothing to do with sex. The same lacy things we wear today and call feminine, men wore 300 years ago.

I am 100% sure, when this line of research is followed through, the entire identities of most TV/G/S people are going to be, without shred of doubt, relegated to just 'one more thing' on a list of ugly symptoms of some mundane hormonal deficiency or brain disorder that only exists as a mechanism to sell drugs and treatments for, and then only for people who choose to think of themselves as "flawed at birth". I don't like or want that. I see it as killing people's self-worth, not helping it. I choose to appreciate the beauty of individuality, not analyze it into a dish.

It's not going to make people smile and go 'oh, I was born this way, awesome!" It's a spiritual and emotional dead end. It negates free will, and reduces one's sense of identity to cold clinical terms, empirical terms, when the identity is IMO based in emotion and spirit. Shall we all cut open our brans to see how many BST's we have before we can let ourselves be content or be good people?

People, I think, like to grab on to this because it offers a physical rationalization for their actions, which they themselves find "wrong" on some level, or as something to tell someone else one day who asks why. I find this counter productive to any real sense of self-worth or happiness, because it leaves out choice. Even at this stage, where the research basically says 'nothing,' people grab at it like the grail, when they should be embracing the effects instead of the possible causes.

Whether you want to use it as an excuse or not, a lot of folks do. My only point is they need no excuse for their actions, if they're being decent people. We're not totally different, any more than anybody else is, just different. We have the same core physical and emotional needs as anyone else. We're all deviants in some way or another, that's what makes us interesting and worthy as a species.

Maybe I just find mind so much more infinitely fascinating and wonderful than the body. I believe choice and free will are the paths to real contentment and happiness. I don't say "I was born like this, so that's why. Please don't hate me for what I am," because I am not a 'what.' I am a "who."

I just say "Here I am, now let's see what hope I can offer, what can I do for you?" I'd rather be viewed as an insane deviant than a medical oddity. Because I am an insane deviant, and I am loved as who I am by those closest to me.

Insane deviants make the world go 'round, and always have.

[Granny Gray]

Allie: Maybe it's the Houston area water, (I'm in Friendswood) but I have studied the WHY question you pose for a lot of years. In fact I explored it in a book I turned into my Ph.D. Dissertation. I find almost 100% agreement with your posting starting this thread. The tug of war between those who espouse NATURE and those who proclaim the force of NURTURE goes on as it has since Moses went floating on the Nile. I don't believe either argument set can be conclusively proven by rigid science. At the same time, I believe we are hard wired in some elements and in some we possess fairly wide latitude in which "nurture" can influence who, how, what we eventuate in being. Since the concepts of Masculine and Feminine are, as far as I can determine, essentially socially defined and differentiated, science seeking to make a finite construct of them is shooting at moving targets. The assortment of human traits that are roughly divided by various societies into three "piles"... masculine, feminine, and androgenic all are common to all humans. When the Blue or Pink balloons are declared in the Delivery Room, enormous forces, both intentional and unintentional are set in motion to form the neonate into the blue or pink camp depending on which set of genitals are seen. NO CHOICE of how the individual turns out is left to the neonate. ... And so it goes... hard wire or training??? I believe in the HARD WIRING theory. Granny...

[AllieSummers]

Wen...I do respect your opinion even though we disagree on what affect research could have.

I think our disagreement is more on the affect of the research proving we are born this way. You seam to think that proving we are born this way is a negative and will cause us to be considered a condition. I believe that proving we are born this way is empowering.

If we all knew that this wasn't a choice then we wouldn't be so afraid of it or wouldn't feel so ashamed of it. Most people that are ashamed that they are TG hide it and do their best to be the same as everyone else. If you are by nature different and fight to be the same that is what causes all the major psychological issues that a lot of TG people are experiencing. They binge and purge, fell ashamed, fight the need, give in to the need, bing and purge and the same distructive process starts over again.

I also know that my wife believes I was born this way and didn't have a choice. She believes that I can not change the way I was born. If she didn't believe that, if she believed that this was my choice then she wouldn't be supportive of my dressing. She would ask me to choose not to dress. I mean, since I can choose not to why not choose not to? Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just choose not to? Lucky for me, my wife is very supportive because she knows I would be very unhappy if I try to suppress who I was born to be. She doesn't want me to be unhappy.

On the topic of "free will" we don't really have "free will" to choose everything. I can't choose to be born with the body of a man or a woman. I can't choose to be tall or be short. I can't choose to be black or white. I'm born that way. Some things are predetermined genetically. I think this is the same.

Choice is about how we play the cards we are dealt. I choose to believe that I was born this way and had no choice on that. I choose to exhibit my femininity as much as possible. I also choose to enjoy it.

Just because you are born a tall, black man doesn't mean you'll be happy. You have to choose to be a happy tall, black man. :)

I do agree with you on a lot of points and I applaud your attitude.

Thanks for the spirited debate. This is how we develop our beliefs and work through how we are going to play the cards.

Kisses,

Allie

[emmlouise]

In as much that crossdressing is outside the norm, it can be termed as deviant behaviour. I am of the opinion that this is not a matter of choice or nurture, but of nature.

At the risk of causing a storm of protest, look at other groups "outside the norm". I am not trying to classify what is or is not acceptable. Homosexuals are shown in many instances to have brain variations compared to heterosexuals. Therefore can it be called a lifestyle choice. Consider the pain caused to so many I fail to see that it can be by choice.

Consider now our "normal" sexual preferences. I prefer oriental ladies, some prefer blondes or brunettes for example. Do we choose our preference? No, it is a feeling within.

Sexual deviants such as paedophiles and rapists commit what to most of us are horrific crimes. Do they choose to act this way? I think not and although they should be segregated from society for the benefit of the victims, are they not themselves victims of a lifestyle not of their choosing.

I never wanted to be a crossdresser or transvestite or whatever other term may apply. As with many others, I have tried to abstain, I have purged and made myself stressed and ill. I don't do drink or drugs,and I don't smoke, so can it be justly said that I am weak willed?

I know that I would not choose a "deviant " lifestyle. I think we should be thankful that our behaviour is harmless.

[AllieSummers]

Thanks for the comments Granny.

The main reason I don't believe in the NURTURE theory is that I was NEVER exposed to anything that would make me this way. I was born in a Christian family and went to church every time the door was open. My parents were good people that never did anything wrong. They were firm but loving. I love and respect them and always have. My mother wasn't dominate. My father wasn't an ass so I didn't grow up hating men. I was the oldest of 3 boys. No girls in sight. I never played with girls stuff. I was raised in the country and we rarely even saw any other people. We spent most of our time in the woods, riding bicycles, shooting guns, spitting. All the stuff boys do.

So why do I do what I do? Why do I feel more comfortable when I am a woman than a man? Not just dressed as a woman...acting like a woman too.

You know, I don't know. I may never know. But trying to figure it out hasn't made me miserable. It has made me think my way through all of it and get a better understanding of myself...in all respects. It has also made me a lot more tolerant of other people and their differences.

Kisses,

Allie

[Wen4cd]

Allie, thanks. As long as feeling you were born a certain way doesn't cause you to lose respect for yourself, who can ask for more?

I guess we sometomes forget we speak from ourselves, that what's right for me might not be right for everybody.

My wife doesn't think I was born this way, and she still accepts me, still encourages me to dress. She says she's lucky she got one of the unique ones :) She just thinks I'm her type, and she knows I know she's just as unique in her own ways.

In my view, I was separated from part of myself through childhood (deviation) and dressing is a reclaiming of it and keeping of it, a being whole.

I feel I became a crossdresser maybe at age 2-3, and not age -6months is all. It's essentially the same effect as 'born this way' since it's before one can remember or do anything about it, or blame myself for it in any way. Only it's just not in physical terms. The need is the same.

But it's got the essential difference that as an adult, I can exercise the free choice to either embrace it or hate it. It's still who I am, just not what I am.

And for some reason, that makes all the difference in the world to me.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I think Wen is making a great point and perhaps is a bit misunderstood..

looking for a reason or a cause for our situation can imply that there is something wrong with it...

you don't ask yourself WHY you are musically gifted, or why you can't do math...you are just that way and live your life accordingly...it's just assumed there is nothing wrong, nothing to fix..

you may try harder, you may practice violin, or avoid math..its up to you...

the "choice/non choice" to express yourself as a woman, whether by fetish dressing, outward crossdressing, fantasizing in your mind, or being transsexual should be no different than the choice of what college to go to, or whether to avoid math, or anything else you choose..to say that the act of crossdressing is a choice is a moot point...you choose just about everything you do except breathe and go to the bathroom (i'm sure i'm missing some, just making a point)...your choices result in consequences...dont want to eat? starve...want to booze your life away?...go ahead, but you will pay...i dont think there can be a debate about it..choosing to crossdress has consequences...and we just deal with them..

on the other hand, you could debate whether we choose to WANT TO CROSSDRESS...i have a view on that (we don't) , but there is room for arguement here but that brings me to the answer of so what...to want to crossdress is departing from the norm (ie deviating from the norm)....
but so is liking brussel sprouts, so is being 7 feet tall, or even being left handed....what a bunch of deviants those left handed basketball players are!..either way, you don't choose to be 7' tall or what foods you like from birth...

deviant is just a word...
1. deviating or departing from the norm; characterized by deviation: deviant social behavior.

2. a person or thing that deviates or departs markedly from the accepted norm.

but in our society it has very negative connotations so it can be upsetting to many of us to be called that...and using it to describe us is usually meant in that negative way ...its that one word in the definition "accepted" that does..
if you want to be accepted, it hurts to be called deviant..

so we ask "why?" because we want to be accepted, or perhaps we are struggling to accept ourselves....and of course we really don't know why which makes it even harder to get that acceptance...btw --nothing wrong with wanting to accepted either..want a high paying job? to be a teacher? a construction worker? well you almost always have to conform to societies wishes..

what is wrong with being different than others?

unfortunately we are bombarded from birth by society before we ever get the chance to chime in and say wait a sec, i don't fit into your definition of what I SHOULD BE!!...that's the problem.... It's doesnt have to be viewed as a problem to have variant genes or variant hormones in your natal development...it just is.... it's a vital part of being human


david bowie has some genetic deviation that gave him gorgeous different color eyes and incredible musical talent...do people say lets fix that!!!! i dont think so .

So in the end, i think asking why puts us behind the eight ball right from the start.

don't get me wrong, i'm curious as to the why but in the end, i am coming to the point of simply saying i don't care..

if we somehow really found out why, i dont think it will help us be accepted at all..."society" may kill us before we are born, or may somehow eliminate the gene or "hormone issue" that makes me me....

just my :2c:

[Samantha B L]

Allie, I wanted to add to my remarks that while I think this is probably inherited,this ain't a "disorder" and it shouldn't be treated like one. It's just a simple thing like having a patchy/ruddy complexion that you inherited from your Dad or Mom or Early graying of your hair from someone in your Grandma or Grandpa's family tree. That's all. Therapists can help give the person some direction and perspective but not if the therapists are squeemish about LGBT and TG/TS/CD stuff and they try to use strong arm ploys to get the person to "cut it out" and conform to standards of "normal behavior" from the 1940's and 1950's. Actually,I don't think that happens nowadays but I do think that many counselars and therapists are turned off by lengthy talks about this sort of thing because they feel like it's not in their expertise. But it's not a "disorder" at all.

[Jaclyn NM]

I have never thought that I wanted to be a genetic female, however I have always loved wearing female clothing. I don't know what that makes me other than a crossdresser. Why? I have no idea, but it's just the way I am, and I have come to accept it, and love the person I am.

[Charleen]

And the debate goes on. I can only speak for myself. As Granny Gray puts it, I yam what yam. I started at 3 or 4 walking (sliding) in my mothers pumps. I had to do it. no question. 56 years later I still have to do it. My answer is it's nomal for me as inside i know I was born with the wrong plumbing.
Nature or nurture? I really don't care at this point.
Can I live openly as Lily? Not at this time as I have to earn a living. On the other hand my hair and nails are long, and I wear the appropriate under garments. Off work I'm who I am dressing accordingly whether it's food shopping, going out, or just yard work ect..
All I'm doing is making the outside conform to the inside and when that happens I'm content.
Now how the unwashed see us is a whole 'nother bailiwick.

[Lorileah]

why would anyone choose to be ostracized and degraded? If it is a choice then we would choose not to have people call us names or look at us like we had three heads.

society chose for us, we didn't choose. In the great scheme of things there are no male/female adornments or attitudes. No one is born wearing pink or blue (which BTW has changed over time too). The rules as far as clothing and "behavior" are subjective ideas set by a patriarchal society. If it was a choice I'd choose to be the dominant not the submissive (sheesh another societal more). I have that ability. I could be the macho misogynistic jerk. That's easy. Being sensitive is harder.

you can choose to express yourself, and many here don't because of fear. that is the choice we are offered. sit down and shut up OR be who you are. it doesn't matter what you wear (I see eyes rolling all over the world right now). some here claim they are a whole different person when they dress. you aren't you just choose to act different. try being that person no matter what you have on. clothes do NOT make the man. the way you are raised makes the man. I am all for a matriarchal society, you always know who your mother is

[tricia_uktv]

We are all different, we all have different motivations. Surely we should jus celebrate that fact and be ourselves.

[MichelleP]

Okay here's my $0.02. I agree with Allie and Granny. My feminine inclinations go as far back as I can remember. They go back as far back as my mom remembered and my sister too. And yes, for that matter they go back as far as my dad remembered (Heck, everyone in my family remembers). It wasn't like they mistakenly wrapped me in a pink blanket one day when I was a baby and said "Ah crap we messed up, now he's transgendered and will go through life wishing he were a girl!"

On the other hand, my mom and sister were of the opinion, if he wants to be like a girl we won't discourage him.

Personally, I believe that there are those that believe that being transgendered is a choice and those that believe it is not. To each his own...

Michelle

[cassandra2601]

I agree with Michelle, to each his own! I also think it is important to look at the life cycle too.

When I started dressing, it was purely sexual. I got incredibly aroused and then it was done and I went back to male mode. Now it is more of a pleasure to dress, often without make-up, just womens clothing for hours at a time. I am very lucky that I have a SO who loves the whole aspect of my crossdressing including the intimacy which is very lucky.

I have read a lot around the subject - "my husband Betty" is quite interesting and I know the German referred to earlier about early SRS surgery.

I know that when I go for long periods without crossdressing it does affect my mood, my state of "happiness" and I would say my mental health. Whatever the reason, it is there and I cannot ignore it - so it is not a matter of choice for me.

I am a type A male and in blokey mode no-one would ever guess that I was a CD. And yet....

There is no simple answer, but at least this site allows us to express our thoughts and opinions without being ridiculed. Also, who would do this out of choice?

It also amuses me that women can wear anything without anyone batting an eyelid!

WHATEVER!!!!!!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

you can't choose what people think of you ever...it's impossible...can other people choose what you think about them? what you find acceptable?


we didnt choose to be who we are....we didnt choose for "society to not accept us"...

we do choose what to wear on a tuesday night and perhaps for many of us we are influenced by what society thinks of us...thats a shame because it limits you to what society dictates...i choose to live my one and only given life and there is nothing wrong with me....it's totally, completely, and utterly my choice.

There are 2 types of people in this world...people that think there are 2 types of people in this world, and people who don't..sorry :o

[Cheshire Gummi]

If you drink the genetic kool-aid then everything anyone does at any point in their life, regardless of its impact or validity, is because of a yet unverified genetic predisposition to a certain style of thought or personality.

That ideology is laced with dangerous innuendo. It implies that no one is personally responsible for anything and that nothing is truly valid humanity, because it's all just ones and zeroes that we can't control.

Genetics does one thing; it builds our bodies. We are is influenced to a point within our genetic code, but what we are not is a bunch of categories looking for a scientific label.

And, frankly, while we're on the subject, I'm tired of people trying to understand us when they can't even figure out themselves.

Tonight on CNN: Well, millions of people around the globe are still dying of AIDS, leprosy, and cancer, not to mention all the unresolved wars, natural disasters, and climate change, but hey, scientists recently discovered that people who prefer wearing wrist watches are genetically predisposed to wanting to know the time wherever they go! That's amazing, right guys?

Knowing why I want to dress like a girl will not cure AIDS or prevent cancer. So, ultimately, there are really only about two reasons for trying to find out what makes us tick.

One would be to say "Gee, look, it's not their fault" and the other would be to find some kind of "cure" for it. We don't need an excuse. It doesn't help us and it won't quiet the bigots; they don't hate us for a good reason in the first place, what makes you think reason will change their minds? And we sure as shit don't need a cure, because it's not a disease.

So what good is this information? What does this help or even prove? From what I read, it's all speculative.

And besides all that crap, this is only happening because of ****ING SPORTS! We live a life based around the notion that our gender is our own to decide. The only time one of us makes the news is when we're acting insane or we've done something illegal. But some glorified jogger with goofed genetics somewhere raises questions about vague and undefined rules and the universe stops and goes :thinking:

I'm sorry to go on a rant, but I've had it with them putting us in a damn box. We're running out of land mass, food, and fresh water and you want to tell me all the subtle ways that I'm different?

Amazing. Who gives a shit?

[AllieSummers]

Gummi,

I guess you got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? :)

This is a crossdresser's site and we discuss things that are related to crossdressing. If you want to talk about cancer or world peace then maybe you are on the wrong site. While all these things do affect the world and they are probably a much bigger issue than crossdressing I'm not on here to change the world. I'm on here to discuss an important topic related to crossdressing.

The point of my post was not to label anyone or tell anyone the way it is. I posted it to get some opinions on the topic. Whether you agree or disagree doesn't make any difference. I respect your opinion on the topic, not how it relates to world hunger.

What I would like to unlock is the secret to the possible explaination of why I got started, why I have evolved into what I am, why I am so happy with it, why I have a very supportive family, etc.

I just want to help other people that are trying to figure this out for themselves. No matter which side you fall on this type of discussion helps everyone look deep inside themselves and ask questions. If we question everything then we are able to develop our own opinions.

The clearer each person is in their mind the better prepared we are to move forward and make the best of it.

I didn't know we could curse on this board but to a lot of us it make a #$%@'s worth of difference. For some of us this isn't just a fetish that gives us a good outlet to masterbate to. For some of us we want to understand ouselves better so we can be at peace with it and learn to enjoy it.

Kisses,

Allie

[Miss Rachel]

The arguments/counter-arguments could be as endless as the analogies and cop-outs.
I can see valid points from just about everyone that has posted in this thread. Sadly the solution is far simpler than the action required to bring about the solution.
If we need a type, a label, a distinction, or some other type of classification why not use the one that best describes us all....
Human!!
People in general are panic-ridden idiots who would sooner destroy or invent some gibberish to give voice to anything they don't understand or are too afraid to figure out. A single person on the other hand can be approached, reasoned with and in most cases part ways peacefully even in the presence of differed opinions.
Who we are cannot be explained with words since we are made up of so much more than words. Who/what we are is defined by a combination our personalities, life experiences, physical appearances, religious preferences and most importantly by our choices.
If I feel the urge to blow my bosses brains out every time he upsets me does it make me a murderer? No! The choice to act on that feeling or urge is what would make me a murderer. I have no doubt that there are people with the same feelings/urges/compulsions as we do to become more feminine that never act on it. Does that make them a crossdresser? More importantly, should it really matter since we already know they are human.
How many snowflakes have there been in history? Each and everyone of them beautiful beyond compare but unique in it's own way, yet it is still only a snowflake. Why call us more than what we are?

Food for thought...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1416706/DNA-survey-finds-all-humans-are-99.9pc-the-same.html
If there is only a 0.1% difference between all of us why are they (people) so hell-bent on proving they are nothing like us?
If that doesn't roll you over in a fit of laughter nothing will.


Gummi,

What I would like to unlock is the secret to the possible explaination of why I got started, why I have evolved into what I am, why I am so happy with it, why I have a very supportive family, etc.

Kisses,

Allie

Easy answer = You have an open mind and were born lucky.

[Wen4cd]

What I would like to unlock is the secret to the possible explaination of why I got started, why I have evolved into what I am, why I am so happy with it, why I have a very supportive family, etc.


http://www.transformation.co.uk/en/transgender-resources/resources/46-jungs-anima-theory-and-how-it-relates-to-crossdressing?format=pdf

I find articles like this speak to my heart quite a bit. My wife was the first to actually mention Jung after my dressing for nearly 2 decades and having no real clue why.

She's a professional counselor with all kinds of education and credentials, and this stuff was pretty basic to her, though she'd never applied it to me out of respect until I started communicating to her that my feminine side had begun to 'speak' to me more clearly as I approached mid-life (35.)

Then she dug out her old classwork from grad school and it answered a lot of questions for me. Maybe you'll find it helpful.

[Nicole Brown]

Hi Allie,

First let me say that if a man is just one shade to the right or left of you he is a very beautiful man. :battingeyelashes:

That being said, I have had this conversation with my therapist and amazing as it seems, at least to me, the 2 of us agree that there is no set answer to this question. We are who we are, and each of us is who we are for different reasons. Some of us are more feminine due to the makeup of our brains. Some of us are more feminine due to our chemical makeups and the balance of our hormones. Do a study of 100 girls and you will discover that there are as many different reason as there are girls.

After all of these discussions with my therapist I have learned not to question the differences between all of us but to be appreciative of them. Just think of lucky all of those 100 girls would be if they all had your exact composition, and how unlucky they would be if they had mine..:D

Nicole

[RobynP]

Allie,

This is a very good question. One point that should be clarified is that the news article is discussing people with an intersex condition. This condition is very rare. Intersex conditions can occur due to chromosomes or a pre-natal hormonal imbalance.

There is no link between crossdressing and having an intersex condition that has been proven by science. I don't even know if there have been any research done to support or refute the hypothesis. There may be some crossdressers who have an intersex condition and vice versa. But there is no evidence that intersex+crossdressing occurs more often than intersex-crossdressing.

There seems to be very little overlap between the intersex community and the transgender community. Sometimes SRS is performed to repair the intersex condition but the medical purpose for this is much different than traditional transsexualism.

Of course, it is very easy for us to say that we have a very strong feminine nature or strong feminine side to our personality and logically this must mean that our brains must be intersexed... However, this is a misuse of the term. Intersex indicates a physical issue with the genitalia or a mismatch between the genitalia and the chromosomes.

I suppose one can have their chromosomes checked to see if one is intersexed. It is also possible to have a brain scan to see if there are any surprises lurking inside...

How far do you want to go on your journey to discover your crossdressing roots? How many paths will you take? What do you expect to find or hope to find?

Robyn P.

[Vicky_Scot]

IMO we are born as crossdressers. Therefore we have no choice.

Xx Vicky xX

[TSchapes]

I have no choice as to the color of my eyes, or hair, or the fact that I am 6'4". These are givens.

To a certain extent I can choose to express my eye color differently (contacts), hair (dye) but not my height (unless I want to sit in a wheelchair or something). But the underlying givens are there.

Same thing with being transgender. I cannot choose to not be transgender, however I can choose the when, where and how I express that. I have the power.

For example, I have an LGBT meeting today. It's going to be at a restaurant. I can go drab or as Tracy. I'm leaning towards going as Tracy because I feel like expressing that side of myself today.

I hope this gray middle is not too scary for folks, but this is how I feel.

-Tracy

[Gerard]

I think that for transsexuals it's hardwired during their time in the womb, just like homosexuals. I think it's one of those things where the brain develops not according to the general plan due to the chemistry/hormones in the womb. Read things like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternal_birth_order_and_sexual_orientation
For those of us that just want to crossdress and not have a problem with their own body self image, it might be partially our upbringing, partially something we're born with.

For myself, I think partially my body chemistry might have something to do with it. I don't seem to have very high levels of testosterone, given that for example at age 30+ I still don't have much more than a moustache and a bit of hair on my chin, nowhere near a full beard. Also my gym teacher made remarks in the past on that my bone structure was quite feminine.

As far as my upbringing goes, I was mostly raised by my mother, with a workaholic as a dad, whom I hardly had any contact with. I only have a sister as far as siblings goes, which I think also makes a difference, especially because we travelled abroad a lot, where me and my sister only had each other.

[Chrissie P]

I think it's wired in the womb too. In life something will trigger the urge. For me it was my mothers slip... at the age of 5. I remember that day vividly and I remember thinking "I like that", and I progressed from there.

I feel lucky that I can enjoy being male and also a lady when I want to be. It's pretty unique and I love it.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I've actually been thinking about this overnite!!! LOL

anyway....i really think that its great how many of us are out there and how we are living positive, constructive,
dare i say, normal lives...

however, my opinion is that you simply don't have to precede that great attitude by saying....it's not my fault, i have a genetic or hormonal abnormality.. it's interesting in a scholarly way, and i admit that i'm curious about it..

our brains, our genetics, and our development in the womb are incredibly interesting and mysterious . i really would love to know...just to know...

but i actually fear this would be counter productive..

i don't think knowing why helps us become truly part of the fabric of our world...we look for the cause of cancer to cure it...i don't want to be cured...i am just me...

if we push folks to understand us by highlighting that it's not our choice, or not our fault...then we forever marginalize ourselves as people that are not like other people or who have a condition that should be treated, not an identity that should be embraced...

i'm seeing so many positive affirming statements, even in disagreement, that it makes me even more proud to "be me"
and i'd rather focus on that than trying to explain myself as having a problem

(and believe me..it took a LONG time for me to accept myself and feel this way)

[AllieSummers]

Wen4cd...Thanks for posting that imformation about Jung's Anima Theory. I can't say that I disagree with it at all. It is probably pretty spot on.

I have found that I went through a lot (if not all) of these phases. Right now I am at the later stages where I do tend to lean towards "greater spirituality and service to others". The actual act of dressing isn't as big a part of what makes me happy. I do still enjoy it tremendously but I am finding that I enjoy the interaction with others like me and the thought that I might be able to help them better understand themselves and learn to love this side of them and stop repressing it or feel ashamed about it.

I guess the only thing that Jung doesn't discuss (at least in this information) is what makes us have that "feminine side" and women have the "masculine side" of them. Also why do some choose to pursue this feminine side to a greater extent than other men.

I think it comes right back to our genetic, chemical and possibly psychological make up. Which once again is something we are born with...in my opinion.

This has been a great discussion, at least in my mind, and has made me dig deeper into my motivations for dressing.

You are all wonderful people and I am so proud to be part of such an excellent group. I wish I could meet each and every one of you. I bet that I could learn a lot from all.

Kisses,

Allie

[PrettyFlowingGown]

I started at 5 which is very early. I was picked on a lot at school, and up til school I was always with mum, she was my best friend, inseperable. I had terrible times at school cause of my stutter, so I found comfort in dressing, an escape in my private world, and its pretty much been that way all my life. In recent years though, Its become my life, I enjoy it and I'm happy. My work stresses me on certain days, and I find comfort in my dressing when I'm home. I think crossdressing varies with others, whether its choice or not. With me, it was an escape, but through life, its become my life.

[sarahNZ]

Ok so I'm gonna throw a spanner into the works right about now...

Once a long time in our past mankind had to be the preditor type in that he had to trap and hunt for the survival of the species, and the women of the species turned to the stronger man for protection... I'm sure you know where this is going...

Nowdays the need to be the strong protector or the hunter is gone so mankind has no real purpose... Women no longer turn to the strongest or the fastest or the best hunter for protection.

I believe that WE (TG) are the next step in the evolution of our species! OR AT LEAST the correcting step.

It is long been known that women outnumber men in our society and since their is no need to be preditors any more it is only fair to assume that evolution has some thing else in store for us (humankind).

What if for the survival of the species we (men) need to change (evolve) from hard as nails hunter types to softer more feminin more loving types? It would fit the equation would it not? Women don't need hunters any more, now they are choosing men that can make them feel like equals... How much more equal can you get than a man that understands what it takes to be a woman? A softer more loving man that can show feelings and the side that has always been hiden as a sign of weakness?

Embrace the weakness and show the world that we don't need them (hunter types) any more.

Not that it matters much any way due to the rate that we are multiplying and cross breeding, we will all be the same colour within the next 10 generations anyway. EVOLUTION!

[Gerard]

http://www.transformation.co.uk/en/transgender-resources/resources/46-jungs-anima-theory-and-how-it-relates-to-crossdressing?format=pdf

I find articles like this speak to my heart quite a bit. My wife was the first to actually mention Jung after my dressing for nearly 2 decades and having no real clue why.

She's a professional counselor with all kinds of education and credentials, and this stuff was pretty basic to her, though she'd never applied it to me out of respect until I started communicating to her that my feminine side had begun to 'speak' to me more clearly as I approached mid-life (35.)

Then she dug out her old classwork from grad school and it answered a lot of questions for me. Maybe you'll find it helpful.

That article is awesome. It brings into words very much what I feel I'm going though. Of accepting my female side and for the first time in my life feeling whole when both sides start to integrate.

[AllieSummers]

Sarah...this is another way of looking at it that I have done some research into. Some believe that we are evolving into androgynyous society. As we evolve from a material society to and spiritual society we will start to evolve from traits that are less desirable to traits that are more desireable.

Certain of these qualities have been associated primarily with one or the other of the sexes, as has been the case with less desirable traits such as aggression, violence, ignorance, competitiveness, subservience, weakness, frivolity, and passivity.

Women are already doing this and are probably way ahead of men. If you haven't noticed women are taking over the world. :) They are evolving away from traditionally less desirable feminine traits (subservience, weakness, frivolity and passivity). Men are way behind the curve and will eventually have to evolve away from the less desirable masculine traits (agression, violence, ignorance, competitiveness) to be accepted in a female dominated society. The beginning of the end for the macho man is already set in motion.

Like Sarah said, we are then the perfect gender. All the positive qualities of male and female combined into one gender.

Many believe that eventually (1000's of years) we will totally lose our reproductive organs and become one gender that reproduces through self-fertilization of some type.

I know we are getting a little deep here but it is fun to think that maybe we are just ahead of the curve when it comes to sexuality and gender. :)

Kisses,

Allie

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

Well, I think everything we do and are is combination of nature and nurture, but the only thing that I would throw as a wrench into the works of this debate is, what really qualifies things as masculine and feminine? It's an entirely social construct for the most part, and depends entirely on the era and social attitudes.

Some examples,

Skirts are "feminine." Yet look at the cast of movies like Troy, Gladiator and Braveheart. No one would say these men were feminine. The kilt is well touted as a manly garment, and yet it is also the skirt of choice for schoolgirl uniforms. And this summer, gladiator sandals were all the rage for young women, and the majority of the ones I saw had no special feminine flourishes, they seemed just the same as the kind Russell Crowe's costume had in his movie.

Tunics, tights, and even face makeup were all male garments in previous centuries. Men also used to wear powdered wigs. Before that, flowing robes. Greek robes and Roman Togas, decked out with jewelry and flourish to show social status.

Cowboy boots are almost as much a staple in the sassy girl's wardrobe as they are in the tough rodeo rider's.

Even taking things away from fashion. During the height of Greece, homosexual acts were commonplace and an active part of military life, having aspects of dominance and authority to them sometimes but also sometimes a romantic nature between male lovers. Achilles in the Iliad is supposed to be the mightiest warrior in the Greek army in the battle against Troy, and he is written about not as being some big bulky human tank, but rather as being blonde and beautiful, and had a male lover. Yet the mainstream social impression of homosexual men in contemporary society is that they are feminine, girly men. (NOTE: I said the social impression, not the reality. I'm well aware of Bears and leather guys. )

So are we really genetically inclined to be feminine, or do we just like stuff despite the current trends of society? I mean many of us had we been born as ancient egyptians wouldn't be seen as oddballs at all for doing things like removing our body hair, or wearing makeup.

[Alexiax]

Looking back..........I find it funny that when we are born the Docs say......."Well Mrs. So&so..........you have a fine and healthy and beautiful baby boy!" And so often........hah......little do they know. All they did was look between the legs to make that determination! Just crazy!

[sarahNZ]

Like Sarah said, we are then the perfect gender. All the positive qualities of male and female combined into one gender.


Allie



What I failed to mention was that when writing my last post my comp shut down to update itself which sadly negated my nicely evolved state of mind to release the caveman within.:Angry3:.:devil:. I was lucky enough that my comp didn't take to much offence to the hammering I gave it and still posted my reply. :heehee:

[Alexiax]

Outstanding article Allie

In reference to the title of this thread..........I think I would have posed the question of are we predisposed to be FEMALE vs Feminine. The only reason I say this is that TO ME at least and IMHO........femininity is a learned behavior whereas female is a gender or gender identity we and/or others identify with. Just MHO and not worth much at that.

[sarahNZ]

Your opinion is your own and no one has the right to tell you otherwise! don't sell your self short.

P.S welcome to the forum Alexiax :hugs:

[JoAnne Wheeler]

YES - without a doubt !

JoAnne Wheeler

[Brenda Freeman]

I like many tried on girl clothes at an early age and it felt wonderful though I felt weird about it.
I supressed it for years married and had kids.
It came back a little in my late 30's 40's, I started wearing panties. always admired womens clothes though.
Then for what ever reason when I turned 50 the urge, the need started causing frustration, high blood pressure I was a wreck felt I was going to explode. I talked to my wife and explained that I used to dress when young and just need to occasionally for my sanity. This did not go over well, but eventually after some thought my wife said if it makes you happy, then do it but I don't want to see you that way. She is my soulmate.
Well I now do occasionally dress up, and I always wear panties and I feel good about myself. I have no idea about the why, but I know I might be a human wreck if I could not dress in feminine wear of some kind. I don't know about genetics or hormones but for emotions and well being, Dressing in Fem is my way to peace and fulfillment of my whole person. I still enjoy my masculine side but knowing I am wearing panties even when at work and in male mode gives me an occasional chuckle and feeling ofl being complete and myself!

[Lucy Long Legs]

This is a subject which I have always found interesting. Certainly, there are many, many different reasons why people crossdress but for me, and it seems for quite a few people here, it is because of a basic physical femininity. At school, it was obvious to all that I was very under developed down below, and I never obtained the upper body strength usual in boys. Partly because of the teasing, I started to dress in my mother's clothes in private and later those of girl friends. I "came out" to some of them with varying success, but of course some of them were attracted to me because of my feminine appearance and encouraged me. I now enjoy this aspect of my physique and this enables me to wear feminine clothes with ease. Even after all this time, sex life is still unsatisfactory and I would welcome advice from those of you who recognise my description in themselves.
Lucy

[Jenny Brown]

I've been having a nice debate with a fellow CD about choice. She believes that we have a choice to be a crossdresser or not be a crossdresser.

Your friend is correct. It is a choice.

why would anyone choose to be ostracized and degraded? If it is a choice then we would choose not to have people call us names or look at us like we had three heads.
society chose for us, we didn't choose.
Sorry, but you're making an excuse. Society can't choose for you. It's your choice. I see very few on this forum who actually take responsibility for being a cd.

[sometimes_miss]

I choose. No one else. Me. I do not impose this view on anyone else. If you want to lay the responsibility with god, parents, genetics, or other folks who did stuff to you, I understand. But for me, it’s me. I order the clothes, I put them on, and I choose to do this as often as I can.

While there is evidence that there are some people out there that have either genetic or hormonal influences before birth that pushed them towards transgender feelings or behavior, I don’t think it explains all of us. We are not all born different. I for one had no transgender feelings until after someone else told me that I was supposed to be having them; then it became sort of a positive feedback loop, where I thought I was supposed to be a girl, so I tried hard to be like one. As anyone knows, the more you practice doing something, the more it ‘feels natural’ for you to do it; that is a result of developing certain physical and chemical states in our brains at the molecular level, so you could say that our brains can be ‘changed’ to some degree throughout our lives. How much of a change, well, we still don’t know.

Crossdressing IS a choice; we can choose what we wear each day when we get dressed. We can choose to wear mens clothing all the time. But for a crossdresser, doing so is such an uncomfortable state that we often are not able to function unless we are able to dress as a female for a certain percentage of our time, and that time varies with each of us, and with our life’s circumstances as well.

Despite the fact that other people in my life did things that strongly directed me towards having good feelings connected to crossdressing, or perhaps negative feelings from not crossdressing, I accept that I myself have decided to ‘be a crossdresser’. It is my decision, and my responsibility for what ever happens to me because of it. I do have other options in life, but to me crossdressing is the least objectionable of those options. I could drink, I could use drugs, I could exhaust myself physically and mentally through extremely taxing physical activities, some violent. I choose to crossdress instead.
I choose to crossdress.
I choose to, by definition, be a crossdresser, even with all the problems that go along with it.

[michellebesweet]

I agree that we all have to make a choice, some chose to hide and some chose to come out. We are who we are, but all the same inside, no different. Our choices will shape our lives in the future and will dictate if we will be happy or not. Some of us might be happy hiding our true identity, some are not. Some will live with this girl inside of them trying to get out, while other will blossom into beautiful women from the inside out.

What ever you chose, it is your choice, it is not wrong or right, it is what you want for yourself, not others to chose for you. We must be happy with ourselves, not what others think of us.

I personally feel that I should have been born a girl, not a boy. I feel that my feelings, emotions, and actions are all female.

[MarinaTwelve200]

I think its CONGENITAL rather than genetic.
If there is ANY genetic association with it , it may be an inherited tendancy for the mother to "hickup" feminizing hormones during a critical stage of pregnamcy.---this would effect some of her boys but none of her girls---and the children would have a tendancy to pass down the unstable hormone effect to their female offspring, perhaps to affect their pregnancies later on.

This could explain a tendancy for CDing in families, but leave no genetic traces---

[battybattybats]

This could explain a tendancy for CDing in families, but leave no genetic traces---

But a genetic study on CDs hasn't been done yet! So those traces may be there!

They did a small one on TSs and found.. a gene more common in TSs than the general population. As in most traits multiple genes are involved this or other genes may be part of being a CD.

Till the studies are done we can speculate but not be certain.

As for those who claim everythings a choice they need to look at the neuroscience... they will be surprised!