Passing revisited

[RachelX]

I will get right to the point. My basic dilemma is that I do not pass.
I must learn to get past this. How do I do this?

[Heatherx75]

I take it that's not your real picture then? A lot of general stuff has been written on this board about passing, which I'm sure others will be happy to repeat, but I want to say this: Every transgirl I've ever met, myself included, thinks this same thing starting out, "I'll never pass..." The root of this problem as I see it is that we hold ourselves to too high a standard of beauty. We tell ourselves that if we are not supermodel hot then everyone will know that we're boys, and honey, it ain't necessarily so. Not all genetic women are beautiful, if you haven't noticed. Now I don't know if this is really what the problem is for you, or if, as you say, you just don't pass, but my hunch is based on the fact that you chose the picture that you did for your avatar. I used to think I had to look like Heather Graham or I didn't want to live...

One of my friends was telling me a couple of days ago about her friend, who, when she was a boy she would say, "Waaaaah, I'll never pass!" and now she's full-time and she's got a 'tude about it too. "Nobody clocks me!" she says. And she has some serious brow bossing. She just covers it up with her long bangs.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

passing means different things to different people..

for some its a very important quality of life issue, others not so much...i think many times how you feel can be impacted by your social upbringing, but also in your male appearance and your resources to do things that enhance your ability to blend in...from clothes to make up to breasts to facial surgery..

in the end though....its a totally internal thing and even if someone walks up and says hey that's a man...you have to learn to internally say that its not true and move on....

regardless of your looks, the less you care about passing the more you pass...i was told this years ago and i didnt believe it but i have found it to be totally true

[GypsyKaren]

It's easy, just do what I do...open the front door, put one foot in front of the other, and just keep doing that all day.

Listen, I'm a post-op and I don't pass, so my choices were hide in a cave or live my life, and I decided against the cave....give it a try, the world won't end, picket lines won't form on your sidewalk, and the birds will still chirp every morning...beats the cave.

Karen :g1:

[Cheryl T]

I will get right to the point. My basic dilemma is that I do not pass.
I must learn to get past this. How do I do this?


CONFIDENCE....that's all it takes.

[pamela_a]

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

I can't agree enough that confidence makes a major difference. That and a health dose of DILLIGAS*




-Pam-



*Do I Look Like I Give A Sh*t

[CharleneT]

It's easy, just do what I do...open the front door, put one foot in front of the other, and just keep doing that all day.

Listen, I'm a post-op and I don't pass, so my choices were hide in a cave or live my life, and I decided against the cave....give it a try, the world won't end, picket lines won't form on your sidewalk, and the birds will still chirp every morning...beats the cave.

Karen :g1:

These are wise words spoken by our own "ObieWanGiraffie". Trust me tadpole, it is not about "passing" it is about accepting yourself. Once you do that, being able to pass won't matter so much anymore. Then, you'll find it is easier to "pass", even when you do not.

I was at the grocery store a few minutes ago, dressed as a guy, no makeup etc... and I was "mame'd" by the staff. NOT because I look feminine, I do not, but because of what vibe I put out there. It takes a while, trust yourself and keep trying. There are going to be times when you'll get a bad reaction and you will have to get past that. The trick, as Karen said so well, it to keep those feet moving ;)

Good luck and keep coming back ... tell us about what works and what doesn't for you etc... we love to be supportive !!! :cheer:

Charlene

[crystalann]

I hate the word passing. To me it sounds like pass or fail, I will not fail so does that mean I pass?

[kellycan27]

CONFIDENCE....that's all it takes.

Confidence will allow you to pass in your own mind, if that's what you are looking to do..great. But Passing ..not being clocked or "read by others takes a heck of a lot more than confidence. All the self confidence in the world isn't going to get Joe the linebacker a "pass". seems to me that that the OP's concern is passing in public. You may not care if you pass in public so you are content with..."mind passing" ( you in the general term, not you personally. a little disclaimer so I don't get blasted for attacking anyone)
Just because people pay you no mind, it doesn't mean that you are passing for a woman. Not everyone wants to pass as a woman when out, but there are a lot that do. If you ( the OP) are one of us that want to pass as a woman.... self confidence is a good thing, but not nearly as good as looking the part to the best of your ability. Passing as a woman...... with all the perks and attention is leaps and bounds better than just blending in... or being ignored. If you find my attitude shallow or self serving...no worries, you pass your way and I'll pass mine.
Kelly

[Teri Jean]

Rachel sweety, passing is not the outward appearence as much as it is the inner beauty.
As you become comfortable with your choices and being you as a CDer or transgender you will see that the world is not made up of supermodels and stick girls but of real individuals who come in many different sizes and shapes and looks. Remember the lady from England who took the world by storm in her singing? She was not extremely attractive but her beauty is very appearent, so don't get to wrapped up in the envelope but make the letter tell the story.

Huggs girl and have fun. Teri

[kalina]

Passing does have a lot to do with confidence, but it has more to do with getting your mindset and your appearance aligned. Many people here have made relevant points. You don't have to be a supermodel to pass, but you have to have the confidence to BELIEVE AND KNOW WITHIN YOURSELF that you are a woman. Once you start believing, the ability to pass will emanate from within. When you fully believe, you will radiate passability. (Sorry if this sounds frickin' spiritualistic and hokey... it wasn't meant to be.) Many girls who fail to pass have doubts about themselves and these doubts (and fears) all show up on their faces. If you doubt yourself, so will others who see you.

[SirTrey]

I like to think of "passing" this way....To a person that is transsexual, to use the term "passing" when referring to being seen as your inner gender almost implies that you are "getting away with something"....IE: If you are an MtF, and you say that you are "passing" as a girl, doesn't that somewhat take away from the fact that you ARE a girl? The very essence of transsexuality is to be on the inside what you are not on the outside....ergo, if you are seen as a girl, you are merely being seen for who you are....if you are not, you are being seen WRONGLY and THAT is when you are "passing". I spent a lot of years passing as something I was not....and, sometimes, I got called on it...There were quite a few times I was asked if I was a crossdresser or mistaken for one....LOL My inner man showed through in spite of the fact that, originally, I was given quite feminine features (which I hated)....So, just be who you are....Outward appearances are only important to a point....There are some unattractive people who are beautiful on the inside (I'm not talking about you here, I am talking about people in general)...and, if you think about it, you have probably known people like that and know exactly what I mean....You could see the beauty in them, right? Let your inner person shine through in all her glory. And people will see you for who you really are. :hugs:

[kellycan27]

I like to think of "passing" this way....To a person that is transsexual, to use the term "passing" when referring to being seen as your inner gender almost implies that you are "getting away with something"....IE: If you are an MtF, and you say that you are "passing" as a girl, doesn't that somewhat take away from the fact that you ARE a girl? The very essence of transsexuality is to be on the inside what you are not on the outside....ergo, if you are seen as a girl, you are merely being seen for who you are....if you are not, you are being seen WRONGLY and THAT is when you are "passing". I spent a lot of years passing as something I was not....and, sometimes, I got called on it...There were quite a few times I was asked if I was a crossdresser or mistaken for one....LOL My inner man showed through in spite of the fact that, originally, I was given quite feminine features (which I hated)....So, just be who you are....Outward appearances are only important to a point....There are some unattractive people who are beautiful on the inside (I'm not talking about you here, I am talking about people in general)...and, if you think about it, you have probably known people like that and know exactly what I mean....You could see the beauty in them, right? Let your inner person shine through in all her glory. And people will see you for who you really are. :hugs:

Not getting away with anything, but having your outside match your inside.
Maybe I am mistaken, and the OP can correct me if I am wrong. It seems to me that the OP is asking about passing in public. Passing as a female...in public. I take that to mean.. Having people look at her and not be able to tell that she isn't a woman. it's not about being attractive or unattractive, it's about passing as a female in public.. pretty simple question. Outward appearance ..... don't shave, and people will see you for who you really are. a guy in woman's clothing.
That isn't rocket science, and has not much to do with the OP. I am not saying that you are wrong, and that may work for you, but it won't ever allow you to pass as a woman...In public.... in and of itself. And that I believe, is the gist of the OP.

[GypsyKaren]

If you don't "pass as a woman in public" and you don't have the $30,000 needed to take care of it, you either live with it or you don't, simple as that.

Karen :g4:

[Sharon]

It does come down to confidence for me. I haven't encountered anyone yet who has stopped in their tracks to ridicule or beat me up, so I choose to believe I am accepted and pass no matter what the truth may otherwise be. I can't afford to lose any of my beauty sleep time worrying about stuff I can never know for certain..., not that it would really have an effect even if I did know.

[kellycan27]

So true.... Sometimes we have to work with what we have. I was speaking in general terms,not what if's.


Sharon

Passing and acceptance are two different things. just because people accept you for who you are it doesn't mean that you pass for a woman. Actually pass I mean. You know.. having people look at you and not be able to clock you. ( again ..you in the general). That has been my point thoughout.

Kelly

[Kaitlyn Michele]

How cliche?

I think the cliche is that folks that are lucky to have small frames or feminine faces or simply the ability to completely pass as a genetic woman go on to tell folks that can never truly pass as a genetic woman how much better it is to pass...

[kellycan27]

How cliche?

I think the cliche is that folks that are lucky to have small frames or feminine faces or simply the ability to completely pass as a genetic woman go on to tell folks that can never truly pass as a genetic woman how much better it is to pass...

You tell me...Can they pass as a genetic woman by virtue of confidence alone? Am I telling them that they can't or am I just being honest? If they cannot...is that my fault? My point was that trying to do your best to look the part will get you closer than relying on confidence. If you would like to pass...passing is much better than NOT passing. I happen to pass....again I'll ask you. Is this my fault? I get so tired of this..."easy for you to say" stuff. I didn't always pass! let me ask you this. say someone posts a picture of themselves all dressed up. The problem is they have beard shadow showing, or have hairy legs or underarms. Do you tell them how great they look and let them head out the door? Or are you honest with them and tell them the truth so that they might not have a bad experience?
I don't see why you have taken issue with my comment about it being better to pass and enjoy the attention rather than just blending in.. Is that not true? Not everyone can...bummer. But why begrudge the ones who can?

[Sammy777]

I will get right to the point.
My basic dilemma is that I do not pass.
I must learn to get past this. How do I do this?

Just to clarify....
Are you looking to get to a point that you psychically pass?
Or
Are you looking to get to a point that you no longer care if you pass or not?


CONFIDENCE....that's all it takes. :lol2: Oh please read this post.


passing means different things to different people..

regardless of your looks, the less you care about passing the more you pass...

Different things is putting it mild.

I have heard of mind over matter before, but unless you can mentally will your body to be feminine on command the above statement is pretty much ill informed and total BS.

Please, O Please lets not have yet another thread confusing the Ability to PSYCHICALLY Pass with the Ability to MENTALLY transcend the fact that you may or may not pass.

True some of us hit the genetic lottery and posses a body that was already leaning female from birth.
The PSYCHICALLY Pass people seem to gain their confidence from the fact that yes they do indeed pass [NOW].

Yes in certain ways you can say they are lucky. But I bet those "lucky people's" lives are still not all sugarplums and frackin candycanes either. The old the grass is always greener line.

For the rest of us that need, well, some help in the appearance dept.
They fall into the MENTALLY pass people. The ones that seem to gain their confidence from the fact that yes, I may or may not pass [today, or at all] but I don't give a flying rat's ass what you think. So there!

Last I checked - the knowledge of all things women is still not genetically pasted down to any of us from our moms.
For some of us - that might be a blessing in disguise. :lol2:

What does that mean? You say.
Well that means that even the "pretty ones" started out looking like 10y/o girls raiding theirs mom's make-up or worse yet a $10 lady of the evening just the same as the "not so pretty ones". :lol2:
We ALL started out the same: Knowing jack shit about how to look like a women our first time out of the gate.

Just because you mentally psych yourself up and walk out the door head held high - it DOES NOT mean you are passing.

And by passing I mean - fooling, convincing, ect, ect people around you that you are in fact a women.
I'm NOT saying it is impossible to do that, but what I am saying is that you THINKING you pass does not make it so.

You are not a shape shifter, your name isn't Neo, your not the chosen one and this isn't the Matrix.

What you are doing is showing people that you interact with that, Yes I may not be passing today [or ever] BUT I am Confident and Happy being and presenting as the person [women] before you.
And that is something that some [no matter their looks] will ever feel. So be happy you have it. Because once again the grass is always greener isn't it.

[Jessinthesprings]

A big part of passing is not the physical stuff. Voice, and mannorisims will out you faster than linebacker shoulder, square jaw, and bad hair/wig. All we can do is practice, and then practice some more. Just keep in mind most people passing by you don't care enough to take you as anything other than face value.

[Melissa A.]

The OP's question was, I guess, about physically passing.

The few answers regarding dress, mannerisms, and other physical tips answered her question, partially.

It's inevitable that it'll become a post about the importance or non-importance of the act of "passing". Because it IS something we deal with every frickin day. And heck, I agree with them all. What the hell am I going to do otherwise? Give myself an ulcer worrying about it? It takes time to stop being scared. It takes time and experience to look at someone who is staring at you, look them straight in the eye, and say, "Can I help you???"

I'm pretty middle of the road, physically....fortunate enough to be 5'8", without huge hands and feet. But that's where my blessings end. Everything else I have comes from inside of me, including the ability to not give a shit.

There's a difference between this silly notion and almost unatainable(for most) ideal of "passing", and just looking nice. Look, my best friend has more than a few dissadvantages....big shoulders...receding hairline...We go everywhere together. Hell, more often than not, she wears tank tops, which I rarely ever do! But she does what she can, and doesnt stress about he rest. I've learned more from her about presenting female than I ever could anywhere else. You can spend 4 hours every day getting ready to step out your front door, or just do what ya can and get out there and live your life. either way, there won't be any mob with torches and pitchforks following you around. Take steps to look your best without being obsessed. The rest takes time and experience, and a little bit of thick skin.

Hugs,


Melissa:)

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Hi Kelly

All you are saying is passing is better than not passing...really? no kidding...in other big news the sky is blue..

I responded to you because i was disappointed that you said
things like "joe the linebacker" will never pass...and "how cliche" ...and "you pass your way, and i'll pass mine"...you totally left out the part about someone never having the chance to pass in what I'm assuming is your way..and how that person feels...you apparently don't see the condescension in those statements....

i don't begrudge you at all..you look great..and i'm honestly happy for you...it would be exhilarating and affirming if i could know that forever more, no one will ever know i'm a genetic male...i hope you can have that...

but some of us will never ever truly pass...do you really think that we don't understand this?

these folks are women too, and they must absolutely develop an internal sense of "passing" to survive...i never said that makes the person pass as a genetic female..i said it helps them pass better...so does wearing the right clothes, and electrolysis and makeup and everything else that we all try to learn


Samantha

calling my statement "total BS" is well...totally missing my point..do you even understand what i said?

because as best i can tell from what you wrote...you are trying to say the same thing..i said passing means different things to different people...you call my statement BS and then go on to bemoan the confusion over what passing means.....ooooohkay

i said the more you don't care the more you pass...i didnt say you pass...i didnt say you don't have to work at it..

you absolutely have to work at it...and guess what ...the more you work at it...the better you get, and the better you get, the less you care and the more you pass....everytime you have to think about it....you are passing less..is that a clearer statement?

if you think that is total BS then i give up...

Yes..some of your observations are correct..i am not Neo and this is not the Matrix...i didn't mean to say that i was...
thnx for clearing that up.. we can agree on that point..

where did i say life is all sugarplums and candy?
do you think my dozens of friends that have transitioned in the Matrix ( ..oh i'm sorry, i mean the real world - i keep mixing that up) don't know anything? ...that they are ill informed?

are you saying that we should not be working up an internal sense of confidence?

where in my "total BS" statement did i not separate the feeling of internally passing vs. truly passing? that's basically what i was commenting on...if you don't physically pass, then you have no choice but to try to mentally pass...and if you mentally pass, it helps you to physically pass better..key word..better...

If you want to disagree with me, i totally respect that and i'm delighted to engage in a conversation

However, calling statements bullshit is the weakest form of response..then you go on to respond to things i didnt even say to prove your point...oh well

[Kimberly Marie Kelly]

I know I don't pass as a women, mostly due to my body build, voice and mannerism's of 52 years of living as a man. Those things can change somewhat with surgeries, practice etc to improve my appearance. But for me passing means to be accepted as a women by my friends and the people around me. The more they know about Kimberly, my thoughts and hopes, the more they can accept me and in my mind I will be a woman, I will Pass. Kimberly Marie Kelly :battingeyelashes:

[Cheryl T]

Confidence will allow you to pass in your own mind, if that's what you are looking to do..great. But Passing ..not being clocked or "read by others takes a heck of a lot more than confidence. All the self confidence in the world isn't going to get Joe the linebacker a "pass".

Very true Kelly...Confidence is not the end all to "passing".
It's not the magic bullet, but without it you don't have a chance.
As for Joe the linebacker...not only does he need Confidence in his femininity and presentation to surpass the scrutiny of the world, but if he is to "pass" in your terms he needs $$$$ for body sculpting surgery as well.
Some just don't have a feminine shape. All the makeup in the world won't change that and neither will watching "What Not To Wear". You ultimately need that inner Confidence that you are the person you want the world to see. If you see that person and love that person, then you may not be able to go unnoticed under scrutiny, but you will most likely be accepted for who you are.
:2c:

[CharleneT]

I will get right to the point. My basic dilemma is that I do not pass.
I must learn to get past this. How do I do this?

Well... lots of answers! Part of the reason that I did not give a list of "what to do" is because in reading the question it seems that the Rachel wanted to know how to get past the idea that she does not "pass". She doesn't seem to be asking for the "how" of passing, but rather the "how" of confidence and self acceptance. Just in case I'm wrong ...

1. Learn to dress in a way that matches your age group, too easy and tempting to wear clothes that you have always wanted to wear vs. wearing what is currently popular in the age range you *are*. No cheer leader outfits for 50 year olds.

2. Get help, professional help, with changing your voice to a female sound and cadence and word usage. This is very hard and will take some time for most.

3. Observe as much as you can the differences in mannerisms of men and women. Practice those of women till it is habit. This is more important than it seems at first and often missed. It is also v. hard to do casually.

4. Learn good makeup technique. Also, and if you really want to "pass" - have your face cleared of hair. Beard shadow can be hidden, but it is quite hard to do so for very long. Also, if you want to pass during the day, heavy makeup isn't generally appropriate - hence you'll need that beard gone for good.

5. Confidence is part of physical passing. If you look uncomfortable people will sense that and it draws attention to you. Which brings us to the most important point:

6. Learn to blend into a crowd so that you appear to be just another lady walking down the street. ie, make yourself look average and normal.

7. Women come in all shapes and sizes, depending on what male traits you have that "mark" you, study ways in dress and makeup that reduce or de-emphasize those traits.

8. If you really want to pass, have your Adam's apple shaved.

9. Learn to do all these things without having to concentrate on it ... it is a zen thing: must actually get into a "role" of being a woman.

There is more but this is a decent start.

Charlene

[Zenith]

I think it's cruel to others here to boast repeatedly of any good features you may be fortunate to have...nice to have in the real world yes...but around here where so many of us hope we could be accepted for the woman we are inside...

Passing without hormones before puberty is tough...real tough...wealthy people transitioning can spend $100,000 +...still tough...anyone looking hard enough...

That's the key I think...be happy and open....friendly and confident...and people won't look hard enough to really care...

That's my plan...and I'm sticking to it...I think it will probably work much better than a boob job...(which I can't afford...:straightface:)

[kellycan27]

Maybe I am looking at this too logically. Take out your personal situation,stand back and ask yourself this... Is a man who clearly looks like a man going to be able to pass as a female( in the public eye) on just attitude alone? That was my point. Prettty simple.

Julie

Isn't posting tons of pics basically boasting or showing off you assets? What would be your motivation to constantly post pictures if it wasn't to flaunt your looks?
I have maybe 3 pics posted in my profile, nothing but my avatar posted in any threads. People who live in glass houses...........or people who have axes to grind.

[Zenith]

...Is a man who clearly looks like a man going to be able to pass as a female( in the public eye) on just attitude alone?

I don't think any of us are going to try this hun...we are all going to try our best...with clothes, makeup, hair...some feminine cues...telling some they clearly look like a man under these conditions is hurtful...:straightface:

[Zenith]

Maybe I am looking at this too logically. Take out your personal situation,stand back and ask yourself this... Is a man who clearly looks like a man going to be able to pass as a female( in the public eye) on just attitude alone? That was my point. Prettty simple.

Julie

Isn't posting tons of pics basically boasting or showing off you assets? What would be your motivation to constantly post pictures if it wasn't to flaunt your looks?
I have maybe 3 pics posted in my profile, nothing but my avatar posted in any threads. People who live in glass houses...........or people who have axes to grind.

Hun, I see you edited your post as I was typing...so here goes...if you are asking me personally...

I never dressed before in my entire life...always repressed and hated that side of me...some dramatic life changes lead me to this site and to gradually find Julie...my capacity to repress my true self became overloaded...I post as part of the learning process...to do my best...and receive help from others...I never ever asked the question "do I pass" because I know the answer....I have never claimed to pass...

People have been so kind in helping me and even told me I helped them a bit too...which makes me happy...I express Julie here in preparation to expressing her in the real world...which I have begun...this site is for this kind of support...and I'm grateful for it...

I always try to not take myself seriously...use self-deprecating humor...just look at my profile pic...and take compliments gracefully...never with arrogance....and I ask myself before posting if something may be insensitive to others...

[kellycan27]

I don't think any of us are going to try this hun...we are all going to try our best...with clothes, makeup, hair...some feminine cues...telling some they clearly look like a man under these conditions is hurtful...:straightface:


Clearly people have said that they don't care what others think, and they don't do the whole 9 yards.... They are content with this... it won't allow them to pass as a female.... correct? I never said that anyone who "tries" is not going to pass. You aren't going to find a witch in my statements, but feel free to keep trying.

Others are "flaunting",but yours are for educational purposes?:rofl: you're killin me! I guess you do have a sense of humor

You keep avoiding the basic question and trying to make me look like I am putting others down. Will a man in a dress pass as a woman on just attitude? How hard a question is this Julie? Will truthfully answering the question blow your arguments out of the water?

[Zenith]

Clearly people have said that they don't care what others think, and they don't do the whole 9 yards.... They are content with this... it won't alllow them to pass as a female.... correct? I never said that anyone who "tries" is not going to pass. You aren't going to find a witch in my statements, but feel free to keep trying.

Others are "flaunting",but yours are for educational puropses?:rofl: you're killin me! I guess you do have a sense of humor

Hun you keep editing your posts...I'm having a hard time here...and why are you making this personal...

Yes for me to learn...what works best...

And for fun...for heavens sake...I dressed up as a piece of chocolate and in a tutu...we all enjoy the picture gallery...

Everytime someone visitor messages me or PMs telling me they have a feature the hate or wish they could look better...I give advice...tell them to work up their strong points...tell them we all have good features to use...

I do not tell them "you can't pass"...

[Sharon]

We have gotten a bit too personal here with word usage and "glass house" talk and whatnot.

Knock it off! :Angry3:

[Zenith]

...You keep avoiding the basic question and trying to make me look like I am putting others down. Will a man in a dress pass as a woman on just attitude? How hard a question is this Julie? Will truthfully answering the question blow your arguments out of the water?

Hun you keep editing your posts and adding questions after I post...

I did not mention anyone in my first post...I just said that I don't generally post in passing threads because it can be a bit insensitive...and I said...people won't look hard enough to really care...that's the point...accepting you no matter where you are on the spectrum...

[kellycan27]

Hun you keep editing your posts and adding questions after I post...

I did not mention anyone in my first post...I just said that I don't generally post in passing threads because it can be a bit insensitive...and I said...people won't look hard enough to really care...that's the point...accepting you no matter where you are on the spectrum...

What does this have to do with my question? being accepted and passing as a gg are totally different.

[Zenith]

I will get right to the point. My basic dilemma is that I do not pass.
I must learn to get past this. How do I do this?

Hun this is the original post...how to get past not passing...

And it should be pretty obvious to most by now what is going on...:straightface:

[Zenith]

What does this have to do with my question? being accepted and passing as a gg are totally different.

Putting your last post up in case you edit again...

[Sharon]

sigh....

This thread, she be kaput.

And I'm pissed!