Am I alone in this?

[Bekka]

I have been a member of the forum for some time – and this is my first time I have felt like starting a thread so please try to be patient with me.

I joined this forum because I thought I was ready to change. I have an understanding partner who is 100% supportive of my crossdressing but I have always suffered from guilt surrounding both the activity of crossdressing and associated thoughts. I hoped that here I would be able to find the information that I needed to move forward in a positive way and overcome the negative feeling I have toward myself. I hoped that being around others in crossdressing community would enable me to accept myself in the healthy way that many people on this forum appear to be able to.

I found this to not be the case – after reading many of the threads here over the past few months I have found that my attitudes appear to be a little different to the mainstream and I would like to know quite simply if I am alone in this.

Some of the things that I seem to approach in a different way to the majority of attitudes I have read are:


I don’t have a problem with the concept of crossdressing (for me or for others) being driven by a sexual motive. I should clarify that I also don’t think a sexual motive refers to ‘getting off’ (although it can) but the underlying context that a misplaced sexual drive could be the root of some people’s crossdressing.


Further to this I have no problem with the concept of fetish and do not consider it to be something negative. I also don’t feel that fetish is all about ‘rubber and leather’ (although again it can be) and can manifest in many complex ways.


I do not feel like I need to be accepted by women. I can also see how some women could also feel like I was ‘intruding’ into their space or take offense if I attempted to do so. No matter how feminine I feel or look, I do not have the right to call myself a woman.
There are more reasons but these seem to be the most recent or at least those that I have had the most problems trying to resolve.

Thanks for listening. Am I alone in these feelings?

[TGMarla]

Hi Rebekah. You are not alone in this at all. I think all the points you put forward are quite valid. In fact, I suspect that for many crossdressers, sex is a very core reason they pursue this activity. They just don't, or won't, admit it. For me, there has always been a sexual undertone to it, even though it has changed over the years, and taken on a lesser importance to me. And even though it's of lesser importance, the crossdressing is still a very powerful factor in my life.

I see nothing wrong with fetish crossdressing, either. Even though I think I'm not really classified as one, one could say that I have a fetish with pretty dresses and all the accessories. We're all not so different. Even straight people (meaning people who do not crossdress) have sexual fetishes, and they consider them fun and healthy. So in a very real sense, a fetish with crossdressing related items is not all that out in left field. It's a short walk between having an obsession with your woman wearing pretty lingerie, and wearing it oneself.

As for acceptance by women, well, some are going to accept it, and others are not. It's pretty easy to see why a woman would have a problem with it. It has little or nothing to do with intrusion into their space; rather, it has to do with a deeply ingrained sense of what constitutes a man or a woman. And I openly admit that I would not like it if my wife paraded around looking like a man. Hypocritical? Perhaps, but it allows me to understand how she feels about me crossdressing, and it's a big reason I keep it away from her.

So you're not alone. Not at all.

[Holly]

No, Rebekah, you are not alone in feeling the way that you do. And while your motivations to explore alternate gender expression may not be the most predominate, it is no less or more "correct" than any other persons reasons. You have a much right to the pursuit of your own happiness as anyone else. Enjoy your journey!

[Lucy Long Legs]

Hi Rebekah

I too felt very negative about my cross-dressing until I realised that it does nobody any harm. It is part of your personality and is nothing to be ashamed of, unless you impose your habit on someone unwilling to share it. It is important to be clear in your own mind why you enjoy it. As you say, it can be a sexual fetish, a form of relaxation, part of a journey to gender re-assignment or, as in my case, an expression of the feminine part of your nature. I find it is rare to find someone online who shares my approach to it, but we are a broad and tolerant group of people.

Lucy

[carrie-ann]

Rebekah every one has there own reasons why. Myself I have never felt like a man no matter all the things I do. I hate men clothing with a passion. I went full time cd agian 3 weeks ago. Its not all about sex for me although it is there. I love dresses and the panties and hosery and make-up and all. There is no reason in the world any one should not be able to wear what they want when they want as long as its apropiate. Its a great thing be what you are and youll be all wright.

[Bekka]

Thank you for your honesty Marla. I too find the reason I think I started this to be less intense and it has changed over time, but at the same time I don’t feel admitting where it began devalues it in any way.

I find it very interesting that there seems to be a difference between and ‘acceptable’ fetish and one with negative connotations. It think it is generally accepted that there is nothing wrong with the term ‘sexy black dress’ but if we say ‘sexy black rubber dress’ there is something negative about it for some people.

[Alice B]

You are no where near alone in your thoughts and Maria pretty well sums it up.

[Bekka]

No, Rebekah, you are not alone in feeling the way that you do. And while your motivations to explore alternate gender expression may not be the most predominate, it is no less or more "correct" than any other persons reasons. You have a much right to the pursuit of your own happiness as anyone else. Enjoy your journey!

It is good to know that I am not the only one who thinks this way. In fact I seem to see these ideas a lot in discussions about crossdressing, although I usually see people refuting or denying them, yet I find it hard to deny them myself – I do feel that there is no right or wrong in life, we all take our own path, sometimes I think we just need to hear there are others on a similar path.

“Unofficial CD mom” – that’s very cute btw :)

[Wen4cd]

Here's how I might frame your points:

a. I have no "problem" per se with people who have a sexual element to their dressing, but society teaches that sexual urges are 'bad.' I don't agree with 'bad' because it's unfairly general, there should not be guilt applied to the sexual nature in itself. Yet, if your goal is, as you say, to accept yourself in a healthy way" you could find easier aspects of crossdressing to focus on, such as repressed feminine traits keeping you from being whole, that naturally need to be expressed.

If you feel guilt, it is usually not because you are doing wrong, but because you feel you're neglecting doing something you should be. I usually find that's the case with me.

b. I have fetishes. We probably all do in one way or another. Crosdressing isn't one of them, for me, but the others I have found usually mean "something," and it's interesting to look at those meanings. Fetishes don't die if you root them out, they just transform into something you can better control and enjoy.

It's also fun as hell to root them out, as learning about yourself is uaually good.

And remember that sometimes a fetish, fun or not, can be standing in the way of a goal you actually want more.

c. Accepted, as female, by anyone is usually not the crosdresser's real goal, as it might be with a TS or someone on the other end of the scale. If you're ok with identifying as your birth sex, consider yourself lucky, and then move on to finding what crossdressing means to you. If you've accepted the fetish aspects, then you're free to look deeper.

A lot of times, the feminine parts of you need 'accepted' by something or someone, if just for assurance thay they're real, and not just a delusional construct. As a crossdresser, I like when my feminine traits are expressed, and affirmed. So does 'she' because she feels alive and effective in the world.

Sometimes for the crossdresser this is enough to then realize that 'he' and 'she' are actually the same person, but with the 'she' parts chomping at the bit to be expressed.


Yeah, that sounds like a boring lecture, huh? Jeez!

There's a little litany that works for my situation, that usually goes like this:

*There is a girl who lives in my head.
*She is constructed by me, yet she is me. This is the paradox to live with, because I am also constructed by her, yet am her.
*She must feel alive, as I must feel alive.
*We're partners, when I don't have her, I am lifeless, and if she completely took over and repressed me, she would be equally as lifeless.
*The goal is to merge, to integrate into a single personality, where she and I sing life in beautiful harmony, each part hearing the other and responding.
*The only fear of mergence is either in her or I losing our distinctness. This would be tragic, and is a source of fear.

*So basically, one reason I dress is because I am afraid of losing her voice in my soul if I don't.

[Tora]

Rebekah,

This is a very devirse activity. Be true to yourself. There is not a set mold, or set of actions, style. Some crave the lingerie. Some the transition into the other gender. Some dress without the wig or makeup. That is the visable part of the idea. Lets not even try to figure the inner motives. You will find a open forum for alot of thoughts and ideas. This is a fantanstic site.

[Bekka]

Here's how I might frame your points:

a. I have no "problem" per se with people who have a sexual element to their dressing, but society teaches that sexual urges are 'bad.' I don't agree with 'bad' because it's unfairly general, there should not be guilt applied to the sexual nature in itself. Yet, if your goal is, as you say, to accept yourself in a healthy way" you could find easier aspects of crossdressing to focus on, such as repressed feminine traits keeping you from being whole, that naturally need to be expressed.

If you feel guilt, it is usually not because you are doing wrong, but because you feel you're neglecting doing something you should be. I usually find that's the case with me.

b. I have fetishes. We probably all do in one way or another. Crosdressing isn't one of them, for me, but the others I have found usually mean "something," and it's interesting to look at those meanings. Fetishes don't die if you root them out, they just transform into something you can better control and enjoy.

It's also fun as hell to root them out, as learning about yourself is uaually good.

And remember that sometimes a fetish, fun or not, can be standing in the way of a goal you actually want more.

c. Accepted, as female, by anyone is usually not the crosdresser's real goal, as it might be with a TS or someone on the other end of the scale. If you're ok with identifying as your birth sex, consider yourself lucky, and then move on to finding what crossdressing means to you. If you've accepted the fetish aspects, then you're free to look deeper.

A lot of times, the feminine parts of you need 'accepted' by something or someone, if just for assurance thay they're real, and not just a delusional construct. As a crossdresser, I like when my feminine traits are expressed, and affirmed. So does 'she' because she feels alive and effective in the world.

Sometimes for the crossdresser this is enough to then realize that 'he' and 'she' are actually the same person, but with the 'she' parts chomping at the bit to be expressed.


Yeah, that sounds like a boring lecture, huh? Jeez!

There's a little litany that works for my situation, that usually goes like this:

*There is a girl who lives in my head.
*She is constructed by me, yet she is me. This is the paradox to live with, because I am also constructed by her, yet am her.
*She must feel alive, as I must feel alive.
*We're partners, when I don't have her, I am lifeless, and if she completely took over and repressed me, she would be equally as lifeless.
*The goal is to merge, to integrate into a single personality, where she and I sing life in beautiful harmony, each part hearing the other and responding.
*The only fear of mergence is either in her or I losing our distinctness. This would be tragic, and is a source of fear.

*So basically, one reason I dress is because I am afraid of losing her voice in my soul if I don't.

Not a lecture at all, and certainly not boring.

I think with your first point you have hit on one of the things that I have a hard time resolving. I do see society around me viewing certain sexual urges as bad and I see people in the crossdressing community denying the sexual nature of our activity – possibly in an attempt to fit in with society (I cannot begin to guess). This being said I find that it is society that may well be incorrect with its assessment of what is ‘good’ and ‘bad’ – I don’t want to deny what I am, I want the rest of the world to stop telling me it is wrong.

. . . and to your third point - I am accepted in my life by my SO and it is possible one of the greatest comforts in my life – she is a truly remarkable person who has the ability to love me even at that time when I do not love myself. In your terms I often think ‘my delusional construct’ is more real to her than it is to me, she seems to see a distinct other person whilst still seeing me with no effort at all and I am truly grateful for it.

Your litany is interesting and very well expressed. I can feel the turmoil and contradiction. I often think myself that if society removed the connection between sex (biological sex) and gender I could be free to be who I choose, but the contradiction is without those lines there is nothing for me to cross which appears to be a large part of who I am.

Thank you for your thoughts.


Rebekah,

This is a very devirse activity. Be true to yourself. There is not a set mold, or set of actions, style. Some crave the lingerie. Some the transition into the other gender. Some dress without the wig or makeup. That is the visable part of the idea. Lets not even try to figure the inner motives. You will find a open forum for alot of thoughts and ideas. This is a fantanstic site.

I agree this is a fantastic site, and I think that I have already found my inner motives – perhaps I have been focusing on the negative too much, but I just wanted to confirm that even if what I have identified as my inner motives may differ from some other views I see that I still have a place in the community (which I think this thread has well and truly confirmed) :)

[Sam-antha]

That you are not alone is to be taken as a given fact.
What is not a "given" is the variation with time in the "mainstream" thinking in the forum. It does really change. I think that you will find that the "older members" would agree with you, but the present "generation" probably do not.
Much depends on the existing forum member mix, ie those actually getting out dressed as opposed to the less confident members who are still in the lingerie stage of development, and by extension possibly in the sexual/fetish stage.
Support for a concept will therefore vary with time, at least that is my view of the forum members.
The need for support will also vary with time, in terms of your own development.
:2c:
~Samm

[GaleWarning]

Rebekah, it seems to me that you know exactly where you lie on the CD - TS scale and are comfortable with it.

I, too, feel that way.

This site has been very helpful to me in figuring out exactly how I felt about CDing, as it has been to you.

I now know exactly which threads I care to take part in (usually those which engage in a bit of humour, or deal with relationship issues ... I really feel the pain of those who are either struggling to understand themselves and their SOs, or are struggling to find acceptance) and those which simply fail to interest me (usually those about what colour panties or bra I am wearing today).

Hey, there are people here who like and enjoy things that really make no sense to me. I do like it, though, that this site caters to all tastes (a bit like Debs and Sheila's Diner over in the lounge, or Az's tavern).

And as long as everyone is civil about it, I also enjoy the odd moment when things get heated! There are one or two moderators who can and do get their knickers in a knot, regardless of their colour, cut or fabric!
:D

So my advice would simply be to share with us, your thoughts, so that others may also learn. This is an interesting and enlightening first thread. I hope it is not the last one you start.

:hugs:

[Bekka]

Can I ask you about this:


ie those actually getting out dressed as opposed to the less confident members who are still in the lingerie stage of development, and by extension possibly in the sexual/fetish stage.

I don’t want to assume anything, as language can be imprecise but you appear to be describing a progression here, if so, can you explain it to me?

Thanks for the support, I appreciate it.


This site has been very helpful to me in figuring out exactly how I felt about CDing, as it has been to you.


It certainly has been, and I don’t want anyone to think that I am knocking this forum in any way, or the people who frequent it. This thread is more about my place in the crossdressing community with this forum as an example of that – I just wanted to make that clear

[docrobbysherry]

I wise person here, once wrote, " CD can be WHO u r, or WHAT u do!"

There r PLENTY of us here that CD, but that's NOT who we r. And, like it or not, sex IS an important part of dressing for fetish CDs.:brolleyes:

I started as a fetish CD, with the rubber gear, etc., u mentioned. 10 years later, I'm STILL a fetish CD. But, my fetish now, is to APPEAR as fem as possible. :daydreaming: I rarely think of the rubber, etc. gear!

Since closet CDs don't have to "pass", I can cheat as much as possible!:heehee:

There r a few here that resent what I do, and WHY I do it.:eek:

However, as u mentioned, because sex is an important part my dressing, I'm probably MY OWN WORST CRITIC!:doh:
I'm waiting for the day my guilt GOES AWAY!:sad:

If u can get past THAT issue, Rebekah, I think you'll find your way thru the CD forest with fewer problems!:thumbsup:

[sometimes_miss]

I have been a member of the forum for some time – and this is my first time I have felt like starting a thread so please try to be patient with me.

I joined this forum because I thought I was ready to change. I have an understanding partner who is 100% supportive of my crossdressing but I have always suffered from guilt surrounding both the activity of crossdressing and associated thoughts. I hoped that here I would be able to find the information that I needed to move forward in a positive way and overcome the negative feeling I have toward myself. I hoped that being around others in crossdressing community would enable me to accept myself in the healthy way that many people on this forum appear to be able to.

I found this to not be the case – after reading many of the threads here over the past few months I have found that my attitudes appear to be a little different to the mainstream and I would like to know quite simply if I am alone in this.

Some of the things that I seem to approach in a different way to the majority of attitudes I have read are:


I don’t have a problem with the concept of crossdressing (for me or for others) being driven by a sexual motive. I should clarify that I also don’t think a sexual motive refers to ‘getting off’ (although it can) but the underlying context that a misplaced sexual drive could be the root of some people’s crossdressing.


Further to this I have no problem with the concept of fetish and do not consider it to be something negative. I also don’t feel that fetish is all about ‘rubber and leather’ (although again it can be) and can manifest in many complex ways.


I do not feel like I need to be accepted by women. I can also see how some women could also feel like I was ‘intruding’ into their space or take offense if I attempted to do so. No matter how feminine I feel or look, I do not have the right to call myself a woman.
There are more reasons but these seem to be the most recent or at least those that I have had the most problems trying to resolve.

Thanks for listening. Am I alone in these feelings?

Rebekah, don't fall victim to the tyranny of the majority. The only thing everyone here has in common is that we are men who wear female clothing. What we do while we are dressed varies as much as the number of different snowflake designs you could find. What style, why we dress, how often we dress, who or who we don't dress with, the list goes on and on. But please don't think that just because I don't do what you do, or because I don't want the same things you do, means that I think it's wrong for you. It just means that we're different. And to paraphrase a great american ( I'm sure that I remember this from my history classes 40 years ago, or something like it), I may not agree with everything you do as a crossdresser, but I will defend to the death your right to want to do it without guilt!

[MelanieCA]

One thing I've learned in the short time that I've been registered on this site, is that chances are you're not alone in anything. And this applies to anything in life--not just crossdressing.

I happen to agree with your 3 points. However, it seems you're looking for a reason not to feel guilty about this. I know how difficult it can be to achieve the (seemingly simple, yet overwhelmingly difficult) task of 'accepting yourself'. I don't know if there's anything anyone here (or anywhere else for that matter), can say to help, but I'm sure you know by now that we're here to support you.

Oh, and welcome! :)

[Veronica39]

As I have become older I am much more openminded to people wether they be gay, straight, lebein, tg, cd, ts, whatever...

I actually cded for many years here and there...started in my home with my sisters clothing out of the dirty clothes been...panties...pantyhose...skirts..bras...etc...

I then continued via my girlfriends things & later my wife's.....all in hiding though...

I didn't come out until I was with my wife...

at first it didn't go too well....but then she seemed accepting...then...

unfortunatly - she tried to use it as a weapon against me in our divorce....was pretty mean...

[Bekka]

One thing I've learned in the short time that I've been registered on this site, is that chances are you're not alone in anything. And this applies to anything in life--not just crossdressing.

I happen to agree with your 3 points. However, it seems you're looking for a reason not to feel guilty about this. I know how difficult it can be to achieve the (seemingly simple, yet overwhelmingly difficult) task of 'accepting yourself'. I don't know if there's anything anyone here (or anywhere else for that matter), can say to help, but I'm sure you know by now that we're here to support you.

Oh, and welcome! :)

I reread my original post and I was probably not that clear. I am actually getting over the guilt pretty well, just not the way that I thought I would and I wondered if there were other people like me out there. I do appreciate your support though :)


unfortunatly - she tried to use it as a weapon against me in our divorce....was pretty mean...

I am very sorry to hear that Veronica, that must have been very difficult for you.

[Sam-antha]

A reply, primarily intended to answer a query from Rebekah.... see below, but first, an extension of my original reply ;


I think that you will find that the "older members" would agree with you, but the present "generation" probably do not.

In terms of the "present generation" I would draw your attention to the "age" of members replying in this thread....

The reply requested is simply showing below worked into the original query ;


[quote=Rebekah;1850474]Can I ask you about this:



I don’t want to assume anything, as language can be imprecise but you appear to be describing a progression here, if so, can you explain it to me?

Language, especially as I tend to use it can be exceeding imprecise/misleading. Keriana thought so.

My use of the word progression was intended to describe a basic Cd development, thus skirting the fetish/sexual aspect.

This change reflects the growth of acceptance of any Cd of himself, from the underwear stage through to the fully dressing presenting to the outside world.
This final stage being simply the belief in the existence of, for example Sam-antha, as a female and not a dressed male.

".............This thread is more about my place in the crossdressing community with this forum as an example of that – I just wanted to make that clear

~Samm

[Jaclyn NM]

No, Rebekah, you are not alone, since I have many of the same feelings as you. None of us are completely the same, and we each have our own unique feelings and ideas. But I still really enjoy this site, even though I might not feel the same, nor agree with everything that's written. I have made some very nice friends here, who I have a lot in common with, and I thoroughly enjoy our correspondances. Hang in there, and I'm sure you'll eventualy feel the same. Good luck.

[Bekka]

My use of the word progression was intended to describe a basic Cd development, thus skirting the fetish/sexual aspect.

This change reflects the growth of acceptance of any Cd of himself, from the underwear stage through to the fully dressing presenting to the outside world.

This final stage being simply the belief in the existence of, for example Sam-antha, as a female and not a dressed male.

Sam, this is what I suspected you meant. It is notions like this that I was having difficulty reconciling – “acceptance from the underwear stage to the presenting to the outside world as female.” Perhaps this is a testament to the diversity of the group that we are part of, but this progression is not my experience. I do present to the world as female sometimes and sometimes I wear underwear. I don’t see these things as a progression- no one of the stages you mention more ‘evolved’ or ‘progressive’ than the other in my mind.

This was the original point of my post. I thought I would come here and immerse myself and learn to ‘accept my female spirit’ (as it were, and as I seem to see others doing) and what I found was the opposite, I am actually more comfortable with who I already suspected I was and wondered if there were others like me, as my thoughts didn’t seem to be typical.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

I do not feel like I need to be accepted by women. I can also see how some women could also feel like I was ‘intruding’ into their space or take offense if I attempted to do so. No matter how feminine I feel or look, I do not have the right to call myself a woman.




This is actually something I struggle with a lot too. I know I don't have the right to tell anyone else what to call themselves, but it doesn't sit well with me to call myself a woman when I'm not. I'm a crossdressing man. and I should be proud of that instead of wanting to be treated like a girl. I've gone out dressed with some female friends and it felt good to be accepted, not as one of the girls but rather more just as myself who happened to have on a skirt or dress. Even having a female psuedonym feels a bit off for me, if I could change my user name on here without building a new account I think I would. In fact I've considered doing it anyway. I made the "Alyssa" account a long time ago and I feel I've outgrown it.

Unlike most crossdressers that I've encountered, I don't feel like there is an inherently female side to my personality, or at least there isn't one that is a distinctly different side to me than my male side. I feel that my real personality may be somewhat androgynous, that it has traits to it that are masculine and that it has traits to it that are feminine, but I am still inherently male. I don't wear skirts, dresses, lingerie, hosiery, high heels, makeup or anything because I have a female voice telling me to be a girl, but rather because as I've started to accept, I am a male who enjoys wearing these things even though society tells me they're for women.

When I was younger, I started to adapt a female persona because my crossdressing scared me and I think my mentality of it was "oh man, I really like these clothes, but I'm not being a real man by wearing them... I guess if I want to wear them I should pretend I'm a girl." But I'm not a girl, but, also I'm not any less of a man if I do wear things girls wear. The masculine and feminine parts of my personality are all swirled together into one conscious me.

As far as your fetish thoughts, I went through a time with my own crossdressing where I expressed it more sexually than I do now so it is hard for me to judge fetishists as a blanket issue as well, but what I usually do is try to consider where the desire comes from for a person. I used to have pictures of me on the internet in nothing but lingerie and with my head cut off. I stopped doing it because I got hit on by a lot of guys and in really creepy ways and it really freaked me out. Not because I have a problem with homosexuality, but rather it was the nature of the emails. I could tell that they weren't really coming on to me because I was actually someone they were attracted to, they were just attracted to the concept of a guy in lingerie. I think amongst at least some proportion of men like that there is some level of repressed homosexuality, and they really want to have sex with men but they bury that desire so deep that they see crossdressing as like a release valve. "Oh, I'm not gay, that's a woman..." or "I'm not gay, I was being a woman." That's when it can go to kind of an ugly place and that's when it bothers me.

Fetishes are fine when they don't become controlling aspects of someone's life/personality, or when they're not being used to mask some other issue that is bubbling under the surface and is only festering and getting worse over time.

[Bekka]

This is actually something I struggle with a lot too. I know I don't have the right to tell anyone else what to call themselves, but it doesn't sit well with me to call myself a woman when I'm not. I'm a crossdressing man. and I should be proud of that instead of wanting to be treated like a girl. I've gone out dressed with some female friends and it felt good to be accepted, not as one of the girls but rather more just as myself who happened to have on a skirt or dress. Even having a female psuedonym feels a bit off for me, if I could change my user name on here without building a new account I think I would. In fact I've considered doing it anyway. I made the "Alyssa" account a long time ago and I feel I've outgrown it.

Very well expressed, this is almost exactly the way that I feel – I am not so concerned with the female pseudonym, I have thought about it in the past but it has become a handy delimiter between the apparent two sides of my life - I just think that it is crossing the line to call oneself a woman.


Unlike most crossdressers that I've encountered, I don't feel like there is an inherently female side to my personality, or at least there isn't one that is a distinctly different side to me than my male side. I feel that my real personality may be somewhat androgynous, that it has traits to it that are masculine and that it has traits to it that are feminine, but I am still inherently male. I don't wear skirts, dresses, lingerie, hosiery, high heels, makeup or anything because I have a female voice telling me to be a girl, but rather because as I've started to accept, I am a male who enjoys wearing these things even though society tells me they're for women.

When I was younger, I started to adapt a female persona because my crossdressing scared me and I think my mentality of it was "oh man, I really like these clothes, but I'm not being a real man by wearing them... I guess if I want to wear them I should pretend I'm a girl." But I'm not a girl, but, also I'm not any less of a man if I do wear things girls wear. The masculine and feminine parts of my personality are all swirled together into one conscious me.


If I understand correctly you can see the difference between the feminine and the female which is something I have thought about many times in the past.



As far as your fetish thoughts, I went through a time with my own crossdressing where I expressed it more sexually than I do now so it is hard for me to judge fetishists as a blanket issue as well, but what I usually do is try to consider where the desire comes from for a person. I used to have pictures of me on the internet in nothing but lingerie and with my head cut off. I stopped doing it because I got hit on by a lot of guys and in really creepy ways and it really freaked me out. Not because I have a problem with homosexuality, but rather it was the nature of the emails. I could tell that they weren't really coming on to me because I was actually someone they were attracted to, they were just attracted to the concept of a guy in lingerie. I think amongst at least some proportion of men like that there is some level of repressed homosexuality, and they really want to have sex with men but they bury that desire so deep that they see crossdressing as like a release valve. "Oh, I'm not gay, that's a woman..." or "I'm not gay, I was being a woman." That's when it can go to kind of an ugly place and that's when it bothers me.

Fetishes are fine when they don't become controlling aspects of someone's life/personality, or when they're not being used to mask some other issue that is bubbling under the surface and is only festering and getting worse over time.

As far as fetish is concerned I think the point I was trying to make was that I don’t see any difference in a lot of ways between what I do and somebody who dressed in rubber (as an example) – neither of them is ‘bad’ or ‘wrong’ in any way. Although I do agree with you on the fact that these things can become controlling or unhealthy in some way (but then again many things can).

I didn’t really touch on sexuality and the denial of homosexuality – I figured I had enough in this post already, but again, it is something that I see a lot and have a hard time reconciling – but that may be a topic for another day.

Thanks for giving me something to think about.

[Pink Person]

I suppose it’s possible for a manly man to express his manly self and release his manly urges by dressing up like a woman. I will take your word for it. However, consider the possibility that you are not such a manly man’s man. In that case, dressing up isn’t all about having an orgasm. Something else is also motivating you. If you have anxiety and guilt about your self-image then perhaps you should find a better fitting one. The sex and gender of people come in every combination and the intensity or quality of these attributes varies widely.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

Very well expressed, this is almost exactly the way that I feel – I am not so concerned with the female pseudonym, I have thought about it in the past but it has become a handy delimiter between the apparent two sides of my life - I just think that it is crossing the line to call oneself a woman.

I am not super concerned with either I guess, if I were I would actually just make a new account and have it be a different name, but I guess at this point I just view Alyssa like a screen name, it's no different than other websites where I go by stuff like "JiveTurkey."

I will admit that I do occasionally catching myself saying I'm a girl, but those are more in jest, like I've talked to GG friends of mine and we've said stuff like "yeah it'll be a girls night out," or "I'm being a total girl about this," as if to suggest I'm behaving in a certain way. But I guess to me it's not the same as calling oneself a woman. I guess this is a semantics thing but I feel like there's two connotations of the word "Girl." One is "female counterpart to Boy" as in a word specifically defining the sex of someone young and female, where as there's also one that is more a counterpart to "guy." I'm sure all of us has heard a GG who was in no way presenting herself as male be referred to as one of "you guys" or "those guys" over there. "Guys" is technically male-specific but in usage often does include women. I'm sort of ok with being lumped in with the "girls" in the same way.

I'm not sure if you'll follow the logic of this next aspect that I'm going to lay out, only because it may be one of those things that makes sense in my head but I'm not sure how to word it correctly without just being confusing but here goes. On the aspect of being "accepted by women" and not wanting to tread on their territory. There are occasions where I would like to be part of the group of girls, like going out dancing with the girls or having a spa day where I'd get pampered just like the girls. For me, I would like some degree of acceptance to be a part of the group for stuff like this, just like how some girls would like to be part of the "guys" and play backyard football or go to the football game dressed not unlike the guys are, jeans, sports jersey, etc. I don't want them to act as if I were a woman, but rather just "Hey, Ryan likes this kind of stuff too, let's have him come with us." But the one issue I can see where that could be a problem for some girls is that since I do live as a man and identify as a man, there may be some "girl talk" aspects of the day or night that they'd prefer I not be there for, and I can respect that.

But I guess just as that girl in my example likes being able to unwind and dress down and enjoy the football game, I wish it was equally ok for me to like getting dolled up like my girl friends do and hit the town with them.



If I understand correctly you can see the difference between the feminine and the female which is something I have thought about many times in the past.

Yeah, I guess I do. I think male and female isn't the same thing as masculine and feminine. I don't think there's a specifically female part of my brain, except maybe in the Jungian psychology sense, but I think that I definitely have a feminine side to me.



I didn’t really touch on sexuality and the denial of homosexuality – I figured I had enough in this post already, but again, it is something that I see a lot and have a hard time reconciling – but that may be a topic for another day.

No, that was me playing my own bit of amateur psychologists for the specific group of lingerie and panty fetishists that bug me, specifically the ones who used to email me.

[Sam-antha]

Alyssa is coming out with reasoned thoughts, but before they develop further, I would like to return to my development.
It is not clear from my post that I have been around as a Cd for well over fifty years. In other words, acceptance of development takes time.
Nor is it clear that I am thoroughly male when I am not appearing as Sam. I do not know really who I am at this present moment, changeable I guess, right through this posting.
Neither the male part myself nor indeed Sam herself would want it to be any different.

It is rather nice to be two separate people.
Which thought makes for more consideration, does it not ?
~Samm

[Bekka]

I suppose it’s possible for a manly man to express his manly self and release his manly urges by dressing up like a woman. I will take your word for it. However, consider the possibility that you are not such a manly man’s man. In that case, dressing up isn’t all about having an orgasm. Something else is also motivating you. If you have anxiety and guilt about your self-image then perhaps you should find a better fitting one. The sex and gender of people come in every combination and the intensity or quality of these attributes varies widely.

My self image is actually quite fine (just not in the way I expected), and this thread has helped me very much in understanding that others out there share some of my feelings.

I think your post really illustrates my points exactly. First I do not think that ‘sexually motivated’ means ‘having an orgasm’ – our sex drive (or at least in my experience) is much more complicated than that (although at varying times it may not be for some people). In my experience orgasm or not, it can just be about that.

Also I believe that I can be a man and be feminine or more precisely I think that just because I express femininity it does not make me a woman. It is just that simple for me – perhaps my definition of manly man is incorrect.


I will admit that I do occasionally catching myself saying I'm a girl, but those are more in jest, like I've talked to GG friends of mine and we've said stuff like "yeah it'll be a girls night out," or "I'm being a total girl about this," as if to suggest I'm behaving in a certain way. But I guess to me it's not the same as calling oneself a woman. I guess this is a semantics thing but I feel like there's two connotations of the word "Girl." One is "female counterpart to Boy" as in a word specifically defining the sex of someone young and female, where as there's also one that is more a counterpart to "guy." I'm sure all of us has heard a GG who was in no way presenting herself as male be referred to as one of "you guys" or "those guys" over there. "Guys" is technically male-specific but in usage often does include women. I'm sort of ok with being lumped in with the "girls" in the same way.

Alyssa, I could not have said it better myself. I will probably use this example for a long time to come.


It is rather nice to be two separate people.
Which thought makes for more consideration, does it not ?
~Samm


Yes it does make for more consideration - but in my mind I may ‘appear’ to be two separate people, but this does not change the reasons why I do it, and it does not make the ‘other’ person a woman.

[Pink Person]

If you are a feminine male (not a female, not a woman) then dressing up isn't all about your sex drive is it? I think you do not clearly know the difference between sex, gender, and sexuality.

[Bekka]

If you are a feminine male (not a female, not a woman) then dressing up isn't all about your sex drive is it? I think you do not clearly know the difference between sex, gender, and sexuality.

I don’t remember saying that I believed I dressed because of feminine traits. I said that I was comfortable with the idea of a sexual motive for my dressing and that no matter how I expressed my femininity I did not think I had the right to call myself a woman. These were two separate points – I did not mean to imply that they were connected for me as I don’t think they are.

If somebody else’s experiences are different, I am happy for them, I just wondered if anyone had the same feelings as me.

[Kristen-Gaye]

I think your points are quite valid Rebekah! :hugs:
K.

[joann426]

i totally agree with marla my so was angry with me when i started out with crossdressing buy now she will but me some new tops as the years go by she is getting useto me because more excepting for me i hear what you are saying

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

If you are a feminine male (not a female, not a woman) then dressing up isn't all about your sex drive is it? I think you do not clearly know the difference between sex, gender, and sexuality.

Pink person, I have to say, this is the second time in this thread I've seen you respond and I have no idea what you are talking about, it sounds like you're arguing an entirely different point than anything that Rebekah is saying. He didn't say his dressing up was all about his sex drive, he said he didn't have a problem with there being a sexual element to his dressing.

[Pink Person]

Well pardon me girls. I thought this thread was about butch boys asserting their purely butch reasons for dressing up like women. Please excuse my misunderstanding.

[Bekka]

Well pardon me girls. I thought this thread was about butch boys asserting their purely butch reasons for dressing up like women. Please excuse my misunderstanding.

I posed the question in this thread in a positive way because I have seen so much material that appears to come to a different conclusion and I wanted to find people who believe some of the same things that I do – I posed it that way because I was not interested in generating conflict as I have had quite enough of that both internally and externally over the last few years. This being said you have piqued my interest . . .

So let’s not beat around the bush (or butch) - please go ahead and tell me why me feelings about myself are ‘wrong’ and please explain how I don’t’ understand ‘sex, gender and sexuality’ . . . who knows this time after 36 years it may sink in.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

Well pardon me girls. I thought this thread was about butch boys asserting their purely butch reasons for dressing up like women. Please excuse my misunderstanding.

Well quite the opposite actually, at least from my angle I was presenting, and though I can't speak for Rebekah, I don't think he was either. I'm not a butch boy by any means, whether I'm wearing jeans and a t-shirt or a skirt with sassy boots. My point was that I don't think expressing my feminine personality traits makes me any less of a man than one of those butch manly man's men you were talking about before.

Basically my rhetorical question would be "why can't a man be feminine and still be a man, why does a feminine man have to pretend to be a woman?." Women can act masculine and still be women (see my "Football game" example above.)

Does that make more sense now?

[Pink Person]

I will try to keep this brief. Sex is a formal characteristic. Gender is a general functional characteristic. Sexuality is a specific functional characteristic. Sex types include male, female, and intersex. Gender types include masculine, feminine, and androgynous. Sexual types include heterosexual, homosexual, and bisexual. People come in all combinations of sex, gender, and sexuality and in every degree of each attribute.

Gender is by far our most significant and complex characteristic. It is descriptive, prescriptive, and subscriptive. It describes us, is prescribed for us, and we subscribe to our own personal versions of it.

Males who dress like women have gender issues, at the very least. Perhaps they also have sexual issues. They might have issues regarding their sex too.

I don’t believe it’s possible to be a masculine male crossdresser. Being a feminine male crossdresser, however, does not make you a female or a woman. Transgender behavior does not change your sex or sexuality.

I believe that males who crossdress and deny, minimize, or subordinate their gender issues are being disingenuous.

[Bekka]

Oh wait I get it . . . no it’s gone again. You produced a very nice synopsis of the things I have read over the past few years. After some consideration I think I actually quite clearly see the point you were trying make earlier now when you said:


If you are a feminine male (not a female, not a woman) then dressing up isn't all about your sex drive is it?

. . . and I feel like I can give you a clear answer. Yes it can be and for me I think that it is. I am not denying any gender issues - I am just saying they are not the primary reason that I decided to (or continue to) crossdress.

I didn’t want to really mention ‘the book’ but when reading the definition of Transvestic Fetishism in the DSM-IV I recognized many features of my own motivations in the definition – and while no diagnostic manual is going to be 100% for everyone (or anyone) I am a mostly at peace with the definition for me. I know this is not a popular opinion so I wanted to see how many others felt this way – it would appear that you do not and you also think that I am disingenuous.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but it does not devalue mine in any way.

[Pink Person]

It seems you now understand me well enough.

[sandra-leigh]

The only thing everyone here has in common is that we are men who wear female clothing

You would have to define "men" fairly precisely for the purposes of that sentence before I could tell you whether I agree with you or not. Some people would insist on classifying me as a "man" in any circumstances; in general (depending on the context which is generating a implied definition of "man" in that particular circumstance), I would not classify myself either as a "man" or a "woman". And there are definitely people who read this forum who might not have been born as chromosomal XX but whom I would definitely say are woman in all respects.


Even having a female psuedonym feels a bit off for me, if I could change my user name on here without building a new account I think I would. In fact I've considered doing it anyway. I made the "Alyssa" account a long time ago and I feel I've outgrown it.


As per the rules, just send a PM to one of the moderators requesting that your account name be changed. For example I recently changed my account name from tess-leigh to sandra-leigh in order to reflect a change in the name I will be going by publicly. Nothing at all was lost when they changed account names for me -- even the friends list were completely intact.

[linnea]

Whatever you feel, whatever you do, I doubt that you are alone, not even in the remotest way. There are members here of practically every imaginable perspective (probably some who may fit into the unimaginable, though I can't imagine that--lol).