A "gentleman" -- while dressed??

[sandra-leigh]

Yesterday, while I was wearing a dress and forms large enough to produce some bust, in a department store, one of their senior sales staff referred to me as a "gentleman"... and I'm not sure how I feel about that.

The situation: hosiery department, and some of the 8 packages of knee-highs were not scanning at the sale discount; the clerk phoned senior staff to come and help her. The woman behind me in line appeared to have only one small item, so even though the senior staff came by quite soon, I told them to put the next woman through -- with her having so little, it seemed impolite to make her wait through what might have turned out to be a complicated process of applying manual discounts etc..

(As soon as they began to serve her, she also promptly pulled a return out of her bag, didn't know which of several receipts she had was the appropriate one, wasn't ready with her points card to have the bonus points deducted since she was returning the item, and was otherwise slow.... but she did at least thank me for letting her go ahead.)

There was another woman waiting behind her with an apparently small purchase, but seeing how long the other one had taken, the senior staff member told the clerk "Serve the gentleman next."

"Gentleman"??? I was wearing a very plain (but quality built) multi-purpose chocolate-brown dress; with DD forms (that look several sizes smaller on me.) I had on just enough foundation to cover beard shadow, and no other makeup. My hair now reaches about 4" below the shoulder at the nape, and when fluffed (as it was yesterday) no longer looks like "guy hair" (except for the high forehead :o ) . My decidedly non-male earrings may have been hidden by my hair though.
And I guess my voice wasn't female...

But what is this world coming to when a "guy" can walk in to the hosiery department in an obvious dress, buy $50 worth of knee-highs, and attract no stares or curiosity other than the normal attention that comes with pointing out that a price has been mis-scanned? :eek: And get called a "gentleman" in the process?! :doh:


At one level, I am disappointed at the use of the male-gendered noun when I was obviously dressed and acting outside of the normal male role. On another level... especially considering the extent to which my voice would have gotten me "read", the senior staff's use of "gentleman" was apropos -- wearing a dress or not, I was a Gentleman in allowing those behind me in line to go before me rather being self-centered.


So... when you are dressed and out and about, are you still a Gentleman? Holding doors, offering assistance to others, and similar "gentlemanly" virtues?


Disputing the price... in a thread of mine a number of months ago, I was told that women are more likely to watch the prices carefully and insist on all applicable discounts. So I gather that I was acting within normal womanly character in pointing out the pricing problem, and thus that the women behind me would not have seen that action as unusual for a hosiery department. But is allowing someone else to go first "unladylike" ?? Did I "break character" when I did that?

[Kathi Lake]

Well, look at it from their point of view. Since all you had on was foundation, and not full makeup, your appearance may have ben a bit ambiguous. Yes, you were wearing a dress and forms, but you could have been presenting (to them, at least) as a man in a dress. In other words, you may have been called a gentleman not out of spite, but out of an honest attempt to not hurt your feelings. That's my take, anyway. I try to assume that people are nice and friendly and good. Call me Pollyanna, but that's just how I roll. :)

Kathi

[DonnaT]

Actually, since he was in a occupation that deals with all kinds of people, he should have been aware that a person in a dress, would rather be referred to as a lady, not a gentleman.

Even if that is not so in all cases, I would say it was so in most cases.

Next time, take the person aside and quietly ask that they refer to you as a lady when you are in a dress. Then there won't/shouldn't be a next time with this person for you or the next trans individual he comes across.

[sandra-leigh]

Next time, take the person aside and quietly ask that they refer to you as a lady when you are in a dress. Then there won't/shouldn't be a next time with this person for you or the next trans individual he comes across.

I got picked at three ways from Friday when I did the equivalent of that in my thread a few weeks ago about Sears gender policies. :( The store of yesterday was not Sears, by the way, and in the Sears incident I was completely Dressed, including wig and makeup and purse, and I was wearing a tight shirt that made my bust quite obvious; yesterday the bust was there gently shaping the dress but was not as obvious. In the Sears incident I was fully presenting; yesterday I was not, so I fully agree that yesterday it would have been much harder to discern how I "wanted" to be treated.


Anyhow, this thread is not intended to be a thread of complaint about what the person said; I'm partly poking some fun at our expectations of how we will be treated if we don't Pass perfectly; and I'm asking people to explore the question of the mutual exclusiveness of being a "Gentleman" and being Dressed.

[Sally2005]

The store clerk should just say, help this person next... Doing it like that reminds everyone that you are a person no matter how unusual you might look. It is funny though, because when I hear gentlemen I always think man in suit, bowing to the ladies (John Cleese?)... but if you happen to look like he would in a dress, I guess you could get 'the madam is next'...with some sarcasm in the address.

[Fab Karen]

weeding through all that to get to your basic question, no, it was not "gentleman" behavior, it was polite HUMAN behavior. In boy mode or girl mode I will hold open a door for someone right behind me regardless of gender. There are GG's who do the same.

[RADER]

My Grandmother had a saying that just might fit this seniro:
" Some Peoples Kids" Meening that Some people never teach thier kids
(or themselves) How to act in public. This store clerk sounds like a person
that has no respect for outhers or him self. Rader

[ggtracy]

I doubt he meant to offend you. Before I got involved with a CDer, I would not have known that many prefer to use the female pronoun. I actually thought that they were men who liked to dress in female attire. I had no idea, the goal was to pass or be treated like a woman.

[Amy Lynn3]

You know what has been said....no good deed goes unpunished. Some time it seems like that is the case, but manners are always in style.

[Ralph]

Actually, since he was in a occupation that deals with all kinds of people, he should have been aware that a person in a dress, would rather be referred to as a lady, not a gentleman.

Is that so? Gosh, how perceptive of you to be able to read the mind of every man wearing a dress and know what they all wish to be called. Sadly, it's completely wrong for me and a number of others who have said as much - repeatedly - on this very forum.

They shouldn't have known any such thing. They're sales clerks, not psychologists, and they had to make a snap decision while confronted with conflicting evidence. Would a long, awkward pause have been better? Or "Help the gentleman... and/or lady... next"? Give 'em a break for doing the best they could with limited time and no additional clues. And, as the OP pointed out, they did NOT make a scene or deliberately treat him... her... whatever... like a freak.

Do you people just sit around HOPING that somewhere, someone will inadvertently say or do something that you can claim offense at? Lighten up, Francis.

[Andy66]

Did you break character? No, I act like a "gentleman" all the time. Unfortunately, most of the rest of society doesn't - male, female or other. BTW, if you are yourself you will never have to worry about staying in character.

[sandra-leigh]

Is that so? Gosh, how perceptive of you to be able to read the mind of every man wearing a dress and know what they all wish to be called.

In the Sears case it was resolved via the (already existing) policy not to use gendered pronouns.


And, as the OP pointed out, they did NOT make a scene or deliberately treat him... her... whatever... like a freak.

I did not feel mistreated: when one is, as I was in this incident, obviously mixed gender, the pronouns get confusing -- and the senior {female} staff member was talking quietly to the clerk, and was using a staff- to- staff reference of respect rather than a mechanical "Have a nice day" addressed to the customer. In the Sears incident, I was fully presenting as female and clerk then spoke loudly enough to carry to at least the next four people in line.


No, I'm not saying that they did something wrong. I am talking about my mixed feelings about what happened -- one can simultaneously feel good about a compliment and mildly disappointed about the circumstances of it. For example, have none of you ever been told something like, "That dress / skirt looks really good on you, for a guy!" ? Mixed feelings sometimes, where no disrespect was intended.



Did you break character? No, I act like a "gentleman" all the time. Unfortunately, most of the rest of society doesn't - male, female or other. BTW, if you are yourself you will never have to worry about staying in character.

Thanks for directly addressing the point, Anne.

I consider myself transgender, some mix of male and female, and especially when I go out as transgendered, I feel like it is being my real self (where-as confining myself to male mode is becoming increasingly uncomfortable.) I haven't done much complete Dressing (flashier clothes, wig, makeup, purse, etc.) in 2009 {for a mix of reasons}: when I do go out thatway, I do tend to discover feelings that I would not otherwise, but I still don't feel internally as if I am "really female" when I am fully dressed. For now at least, dressing transgendered ("gender-bending") and living with an unplanned mix of male and female (e.g., not deliberately changing my voice) is "being me" . But I recognize that what I feel is natural and appropriate for me might change as I go through gender therapy (which I'll be starting in a couple of weeks; I have my appointment scheduled.)

Holding doors and avoiding interrupting people is the way I was raised. Possibly I was raised that way under the theory that "this is how a good Man acts"... I don't know. It is automatic by now... some might term it a "male habit", but it is not a habit I am in any hurry to get rid of. I'm not saying that I haven't enjoyed having people deliberately open doors for me when I'm Dressed, but becoming part of the "served class" is not why I dress (well, not very much... it is pleasant to have it happen from time to time.)

[VeronicaMoonlit]

it was not "gentleman" behavior, it was polite HUMAN behavior.


Is that so? Gosh, how perceptive of you to be able to read the mind of every man wearing a dress and know what they all wish to be called. Sadly, it's completely wrong for me and a number of others who have said as much - repeatedly - on this very forum.

Ralph, the majority of those who go out in public en femme want to be addressed using the female pronouns. The folks that don't want to be called ma'am and miss are a minority and they don't tend to go out.

Major retailers KNOW, because they've been told over the years, how the majority of public appearing transfolk want to be addressed. They tell their clerks/SA's how to do it.

Personally my reaction would have been to clear my throat at the "gentleman", shake my head, and give the clerk a polite "you made an oopsie" look.


They shouldn't have known any such thing.

But the fact is, they do know, because they're trained to know and told about dealing with us.



Do you people just sit around HOPING that somewhere, someone will inadvertently say or do something that you can claim offense at? Lighten up, Francis.

Nope.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

[Kendra Irene]

Sandra-Leigh
Responding to your question, YES. I find that I'm always holding doors for ladies, when I'm dressed. Two months ago I even held the chair while my wife was sitting, in a restaurant.:doh:
Kendra

[Andy66]

Sure holding doors is mainly considered male behavior, but a decent woman wouldn't carelessly drop the door on anyone either. I will hold the door for a lady because I'm a bit of a tomboy. ;) I will also do it for a child, or an old or handicapped person. The only reason I might not hold a door for a man is because that sort of role reversal can make some men feel awkward. See, sometimes NOT opening the door is being polite. If the other person is a woman or man (not a child or old or handicapped) it is acceptable to
enter first and hold the door behind you for them.

Interrupting is impolite no matter who you are.


Major retailers KNOW, because they've been told over the years, how the majority of public appearing transfolk want to be addressed. They tell their clerks/SA's how to do it.

:lol: Are you serious? In two years of working retail I have yet to be taught how to address anyone. Management and cashiers alike are so overworked, they barely have time to learn their jobs on the fly, let alone give/get sensitivity training. Cashiers are just told to be polite to customers. If those individual cashiers don't come into the job already knowing what is generally accepted as the polite way to address a CD, TG, etc. they will make the same mistakes as any other person would.

[Ralph]

In two years of working retail I have yet to be taught how to address anyone. Management and cashiers alike are so overworked, they barely have time to learn their jobs on the fly, let alone give/get sensitivity training. Cashiers are just told to be polite to customers. If those individual cashiers don't come into the job already knowing what is generally accepted as the polite way to address a CD, TG, etc. they will make the same mistakes as any other person would.

Thanks. I thought the "they have all been told" line was bullshit, but I don't have the retail background myself to know what they're taught these days (my suspicion is they're not taught anything, as evidenced by total unfamiliarity with product, store layout, or common sense, but that's just my inner curmudgeon speaking).

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

Yes, I too have many years of retail under my belt and never once did we ever have a meeting or training session that dealt with how to address customers.

and even if this guy has had some such instruction, which is admittedly possible since he works in a hosiery department, the scene was also described as being somewhat busy, at least busy enough that there was discussion about which customers to serve next. So maybe it just slipped his mind and he accidentally said the wrong thing. It doesn't sound from the description that he meant anything hostile by it and that he was just trying to knock the line out.


the majority of those who go out in public en femme want to be addressed using the female pronouns. The folks that don't want to be called ma'am and miss are a minority and they don't tend to go out.

Well, that's great that you want that. It doesn't mean people always know you want it, and that you should get all upset when they don't. Personally I prefer to go by male pronouns and I've occasionally been referred to by female ones even when I wasn't dressed as anything other than a man in a skirt. But boy if that's the worst thing that happens to me when I'm out dressed in women's clothes, that's called a good day.

Our skins need to be thicker than pantyhose people, stop giving yourself ladders! (I was going to say "runs" but that sounded more like I was saying stop giving yourself diarrhea.)

[Gerard]

I wouldn't read to much into it, most of us trying to cross the gender line will give out mixed signals. People will unconsciously put you either in the male of female box and not really think about it, especially if their minds are occupied with other tasks.

[Andy66]

(my suspicion is they're not taught anything, as evidenced by total unfamiliarity with product, store layout, or common sense, but that's just my inner curmudgeon speaking).

As in any other profession, some retail people care about doing a good job and some don't... some rise in the ranks, and some never will. Those who care have to learn information bit by bit wherever they can, because everyone is too busy to sit down and teach them thoroughly.

Surprisingly, we have ex-nurses, ex-social workers, ex-paralegals, ex-cops and many other professionals working in retail. I suppose it's because of the economy. Sometimes you have to take whatever job you can get. They're not as vacuous as some people think. (But a few are.)

The reason associates don't always know about products and their locations is the sheer number of items there are to keep track of. They're constantly changing, and we constantly get orders from the main office to move things here, move things there. It's more challenging than it looks.